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The Debut Year in Review with picture book author Kirsten Ealand · The Book Deal

• 0:40
  Tina: Today I'm chatting to the delightful Kirsten Earland is our last guest in our 2024 debut year in review series.
• 0:47
  Tina: Kirsten is a picture book author of her debut book, Like a Gannet, and she kindly shares her experience of her debut authoring year, which is filled with many wise pieces of advice like be patient and just quit.
• 1:00
  Tina: Yes, quitting can help when the writing just won't work.
• 1:03
  Tina: So stay tuned for this enlightening and inspiring interview.
• 1:08
  Tina: Kirsten Ealand, welcome to the Book Deal Podcast.
• 1:11
  Kirsten: Hi Tina.
• 1:13
  Tina: Kirsten, you are a picture book author with your first debut picture book released, uh, last year, Like a Gannet, uh, with Windy Hollow.
• 1:22
  Tina: Congratulations.
• 1:24
  Kirsten: Thank you.
• 1:25
  Tina: Now, can you, I'm going to put you on the spot, can you give me your one liner?
• 1:29
  Kirsten: Sure.
• 1:30
  Kirsten: Um, so, uh, explore the excitement and apprehension of that first time on the diving board in this celebration of summer days at the pool, cousins and one little fledgling who wants to be a gannet.
• 1:43
  Tina: It's such a beautiful book.
• 1:45
  Tina: I have a six year old who loves it.
• 1:48
  Tina: He really enjoys reading it.
• 1:49
  Tina: It's so cute.
• 1:50
  Tina: And if you do know anything about Gannets, or if you don't know anything about Gannets, uh, you will afterwards.
• 1:55
  Tina: It's very relatable.
• 1:57
  Kirsten: Yay, I've had great feedback off kids, which has been the most exciting thing to get.
• 2:02
  Kirsten: That's been, I didn't realize how exciting that would be to hear good feedback from kids who enjoy it.
• 2:08
  Kirsten: So they,
• 2:09
  Tina: Yeah, well, they're your market, isn't it?
• 2:11
  Tina: I think it's the way you've written the words and spaced it out.
• 2:13
  Tina: And, and I don't, I don't write picture books, obviously, but it must, I know a lot of work goes into it and a lot of tech, technical sort of learnings of how to place the words.
• 2:23
  Tina: It's really, Uh, it can be really quite tricky, can't it?
• 2:27
  Kirsten: yes, every word.
• 2:29
  Kirsten: So,
• 2:30
  Tina: So as you know, Kirsten, here on The Book Deal, we are all about helping aspiring authors through hearing about the experiences of published authors.
• 2:39
  Tina: So we want to get straight down to it and ask the questions that everybody wants answers to.
• 2:44
  Tina: Are you ready?
• 2:46
  Kirsten: yes, I'm ready.
• 2:48
  Tina: Okay, how long did it take you to write Like a Gannett?
• 2:54
  Kirsten: Well, the first version was written in January 21 and version 71 was contracted in August 22.
• 3:06
  Tina: Wow, 71 versions.
• 3:09
  Kirsten: Yes.
• 3:10
  Kirsten: And up to about 40, from about 40 on, they were very small tweaks.
• 3:15
  Kirsten: So.
• 3:16
  Kirsten: Because every word counts in a picture book, sometimes a little word change can really, um, make, um, yeah, just fine tune it and tweak it just to make it that bit more polished and they're the things that you need to do.
• 3:29
  Kirsten: So, yeah.
• 3:30
  Tina: So what changed in the first 40 versions?
• 3:33
  Tina: Big changes.
• 3:34
  Kirsten: Okay, so, um, version one actually had the story arc already there when I looked back because when you asked the question when I had to look back to see when and I had a read through version one.
• 3:47
  Kirsten: It had the same, it had the story arc there and, um, but didn't have the, didn't have a
• 3:56
  Tina: Oh, wow.
• 3:57
  Kirsten: Gannett.
• 3:58
  Kirsten: Yeah.
• 3:59
  Tina: a title?
• 3:59
  Tina: What was the title then?
• 4:01
  Kirsten: I don't know because I've gone back and read the file to be in the like a Gannett file.
• 4:06
  Kirsten: So I actually don't know what the original.
• 4:08
  Kirsten: main one.
• 4:09
  Kirsten: But, um, yeah, so
• 4:14
  Tina: That's a, that's, so that's interesting.
• 4:15
  Tina: So you, you, cause everybody starts writing from a different space, I guess, or the idea is different.
• 4:20
  Tina: And for some people it's a character or for some people it's, you know, a particular arc or a lesson learned or, um, a place like a, a setting or a scene.
• 4:31
  Tina: So for you, it was just that story, the arc.
• 4:34
  Kirsten: it was an emotion.
• 4:35
  Kirsten: So I, um, wanted to write a story that really had, um, a lot of joy in it.
• 4:42
  Kirsten: So, um, I thought of a time when I'd felt that sort of No holds barred kind of joy and freedom, and for me it was in the water.
• 4:51
  Kirsten: So that was the starting point.
• 4:54
  Kirsten: And so then I made a little character who felt so happy and, um, capable and free in the water that then she felt like she could sort of do anything.
• 5:02
  Kirsten: And then when she was swimming at the local pool, she saw her cousins diving like Gannett's diving board.
• 5:07
  Kirsten: So she wanted to do that as well.
• 5:09
  Kirsten: So she's sort of going outside of her comfort zone, doing something that was hard for So, yeah, so that was the starting point.
• 5:16
  Kirsten: And then the arc came straight away.
• 5:18
  Kirsten: And some of the lines are exactly the same as in that very first draft.
• 5:22
  Kirsten: Like I said, there was no Gannets.
• 5:23
  Kirsten: There was no sort of metaphor running through it that there is now.
• 5:26
  Kirsten: Sort of like a, a Gannet metaphor, bird metaphor running all the way through now.
• 5:30
  Kirsten: So that all those layers were added in subsequent drafts.
• 5:34
  Tina: Mm hmm.
• 5:35
  Tina: All right.
• 5:36
  Tina: So time, time is important.
• 5:37
  Tina: Letting it sit for a bit, do you think?
• 5:39
  Tina: And then coming up with that metaphor, because that just gives it a whole nother layer.
• 5:44
  Kirsten: Yes, I had, I came up with metaphors over the time, but they were all There were different metaphors, so then I had come up with the Gannett metaphor, but at the beginning I had some other metaphors, and it was actually in a manuscript assessment that an editor gave me some feedback, why don't I make the first metaphors, also bird metaphors, and that was just such invaluable feedback, because that really gave it a really good thread that then sort of tied it all together, and um, yeah, and I think it really strengthened the manuscript.
• 6:13
  Tina: Okay.
• 6:13
  Tina: Yeah.
• 6:14
  Tina: So assessments are important too, aren't they?
• 6:16
  Tina: Getting editor and publisher assessments.
• 6:19
  Kirsten: Any feedback you can get, even if it's a rejection of sending, if someone doesn't like it.
• 6:24
  Kirsten: Gives you some feedback.
• 6:25
  Kirsten: It's invaluable.
• 6:26
  Tina: Mm hmm.
• 6:27
  Tina: Yep.
• 6:28
  Tina: So, 71 versions.
• 6:31
  Tina: How did you know number 71 was the version that you wanted to submit?
• 6:35
  Tina: How did you know when it was ready?
• 6:38
  Kirsten: Well, I had a manuscript assessment at version 46.
• 6:46
  Kirsten: so that's when I did the manuscript assessment at CYA with, um, Christina Hayes at Windy Hollow.
• 6:52
  Kirsten: And, um, she, uh, top tip, I asked her if I could, um, tape the Zoom assessment because it was during COVID.
• 7:01
  Kirsten: So we were on Zoom.
• 7:03
  Kirsten: I asked her if I could tape it so that I can listen and talk to her.
• 7:06
  Kirsten: Um, but not miss any of her suggestions because sometimes it's just a tiny little sort of offhand comment or something that then because afterwards I really try to address every single concern or comment that resonates with me or or they might make a comment but the way they've sort of suggested it doesn't resonate but but looking back at what made them make the comment then addressing that so really trying to nut out what it is that isn't quite working for them and then address that way.
• 7:33
  Kirsten: And then, yeah, so I addressed everything and then resubmitted before I resubmitted to her.
• 7:39
  Tina: That's a really good top tip to tape the zoom and they all, all the assessors would seem very lovely and would probably say, yes, some might not be into it, but, um, it's a very good.
• 7:51
  Tina: Tip, because you do, you forget, like, like you said, you want to give them your full attention and have a full proper conversation, but at the same time, you also don't want to forget a single word that they said.
• 8:00
  Tina: So, I mean, I'm like, I've never asked to tape it before, so I'm frantically scribbling words and, and underlining things and capital letters to be like, don't forget this part, but you know, and sometimes
• 8:12
  Kirsten: next thing that they're saying, why are you trying to write that?
• 8:15
  Kirsten: Because that was a gold, like I've had a manuscript where it's just been pure gold.
• 8:19
  Tina: yes,
• 8:20
  Kirsten: It was an agent from the U.
• 8:24
  Kirsten: S.
• 8:24
  Kirsten: came to Um, I can't remember his name offhand, but he came to the CYA and oh my god, that assessment was absolute gold.
• 8:32
  Kirsten: He just gave me, he was just giving me ideas, he was just amazing.
• 8:36
  Kirsten: And he was a picture book agent, um, and I just, you just don't want to miss anything they say.
• 8:43
  Kirsten: So yeah, I always ask if I can, um, take, and I've never, no one's ever said no.
• 8:47
  Tina: That's really good advice.
• 8:49
  Tina: Um, and just clarifying the CYA conference and their CYA assessments is a yearly conference, and I'll put the links to it in the show notes people.
• 8:59
  Kirsten: Usually in July, I think every year,
• 9:01
  Tina: Hmm.
• 9:01
  Tina: Yeah, I think it is in July.
• 9:02
  Tina: Yep.
• 9:03
  Tina: So that's coming up and they've just released for anyone who's interested, uh, their first.
• 9:08
  Tina: round of, uh, assess, yeah, assessments.
• 9:11
  Tina: So they, I think you can follow them online or like on Insta and also on the website.
• 9:17
  Tina: And then they'll just continually keep adding, um, editors and, uh, different assessments that you can book into, which is, uh, and some of them get snapped up really quickly too.
• 9:28
  Kirsten: Yes, they do.
• 9:28
  Kirsten: And it always takes me by surprise when they're putting them out this early.
• 9:31
  Kirsten: I'm not ready and I'm not even thinking about the conference until later next year.
• 9:35
  Tina: Yeah, I know.
• 9:36
  Tina: It'll creep up on us.
• 9:38
  Kirsten: other people are probably not, you know, they're probably good ones to get because other people are probably.
• 9:43
  Kirsten: busy
• 9:44
  Tina: That's right.
• 9:46
  Kirsten: But, um, yes, the question was, how do I know I was ready to submit?
• 9:49
  Kirsten: And I didn't answer.
• 9:49
  Kirsten: So, uh, I sent version four, my manuscript assessment, and then I went away and addressed all the things.
• 9:55
  Kirsten: Um, one of the things was I repaginated it to 28 pages instead of 32, which is standard, just from some comments she'd made.
• 10:02
  Kirsten: Anyway, and then I got, that's when I got to version 71.
• 10:06
  Kirsten: And when I got there, I, I was just, Tweaking and then I'd come back a week or two later and I'd retweak back again.
• 10:13
  Kirsten: So once you start making the changes and then making them back again, you know that you just, you know, and so then I sent that off and then, um, so I sent that off about a month.
• 10:23
  Kirsten: I took about a month after my assessment to send that back to her.
• 10:26
  Kirsten: And then, yeah.
• 10:28
  Kirsten: And then about three, um, two months after that, yeah, I just got an email one day saying, we just had our acquisitions meeting this morning and.
• 10:39
  Kirsten: Wondering if Like a Gannet is still available.
• 10:44
  Tina: That's so exciting.
• 10:44
  Tina: So you didn't know it was going to acquisitions.
• 10:48
  Kirsten: know, nothing.
• 10:49
  Tina: That's probably a good thing because otherwise you spend the whole day just panicking and staring at your phone waiting for it to call or for an email.
• 10:58
  Kirsten: Yeah, I actually think it's a better way too.
• 10:59
  Tina: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:02
  Tina: Oh, that's great.
• 11:02
  Tina: So look, we normally do ask people, uh, how many rejections they've had.
• 11:09
  Tina: Um, but that's, you know, you, you kind of got your deal through the assessments with like a Gannett.
• 11:16
  Kirsten: I did have rejections as well, though.
• 11:18
  Kirsten: So I had five, three slush pile rejections.
• 11:22
  Kirsten: One, revise and resubmit the previous CYA, which is when I got that good feedback about the Gannet, um, just the bird metaphor, just, um, consolidating that.
• 11:34
  Kirsten: And then I have an, another editor who I just send things to who I've met in the past.
• 11:41
  Kirsten: And so I sent it to them.
• 11:41
  Kirsten: So that's five rejections.
• 11:43
  Kirsten: And they were all the previous year,
• 11:44
  Tina: hmm.
• 11:45
  Kirsten: 2021.
• 11:46
  Kirsten: And then the CYA was the next year.
• 11:48
  Kirsten: So I think probably it helped that it had sat for six months.
• 11:53
  Kirsten: And then I probably would have, I definitely, I definitely would have reworked it and done any last minute things before I sent it off to CYA.
• 12:01
  Kirsten: So yeah, that probably six months probably really helped.
• 12:04
  Tina: So what's your advice for dealing with rejection?
• 12:08
  Tina: Because it's definitely something that we all go through as writers.
• 12:12
  Kirsten: I know it's such a big part of the experience.
• 12:15
  Kirsten: Um, Well, I suppose I try to have the goal of writing the strongest manuscript I can rather than the goal of being published.
• 12:24
  Kirsten: So I get really excited when I start a new manuscript and I love writing it.
• 12:29
  Kirsten: That's one thing I've disliked about this year, that like last year, the debut year, it's because I had so little time for actually writing and it's not a very creative headspace or the public publication headspace and the planning.
• 12:42
  Kirsten: And so I didn't do as much writing as I'd like.
• 12:44
  Kirsten: So I'm looking forward to that this year.
• 12:46
  Kirsten: Um, but, um, so I really try to just work on the manuscript to make it as strong as I can.
• 12:52
  Kirsten: And then I hope that if I make it as strong as I can.
• 12:56
  Kirsten: And get it out there.
• 12:57
  Kirsten: It fits the market because you've got no control over all that side of it.
• 13:00
  Kirsten: Um, so what I really appreciate is rejection with feedback, but there's like gold for me.
• 13:07
  Kirsten: So, um, and then I always sit with it and see if it resonates at all with me.
• 13:11
  Kirsten: And if it does, I address all those concerns that I can just to make it stronger, anything to help.
• 13:17
  Kirsten: You make things stronger and then get it out there again and then rejection with no feedback or just not hearing back.
• 13:25
  Kirsten: It's hard, I reckon, but um, it just means you're in the game and that's, you know, that's a win because it's a part of the writing process.
• 13:33
  Kirsten: Everyone's not going to love everything you write and it's not going to be right for everybody.
• 13:36
  Kirsten: So you just got to keep putting it out there.
• 13:38
  Kirsten: So at least if you, I always want to have something out there.
• 13:41
  Kirsten: That is my goal.
• 13:42
  Kirsten: So do you, and then even if you just get a.
• 13:45
  Kirsten: Put it out there and then forget about it, and then if you get a rejection, oh, okay, we'll just get something else in, so you've at least got something
• 13:51
  Tina: Yeah, that's really good advice.
• 13:53
  Tina: I like how you said it just means that you're in the game.
• 13:55
  Tina: You're welcome.
• 13:56
  Tina: And that's, that's really good advice because it does, it means that you're actively pursuing something and that's maybe even getting your first rejection is a bit of a win because it's like, yes, I'm in here.
• 14:08
  Tina: I'm doing it.
• 14:09
  Tina: Um, and or, and also always having something out there is good too, or at least working on something else.
• 14:16
  Tina: Just not focusing on that one.
• 14:18
  Tina: Um, that's out there doing the rounds and it probably hits a little bit harder when you've got nothing else to sort of focus on.
• 14:25
  Kirsten: Especially not with picture books.
• 14:26
  Kirsten: It's probably different if you're working on a long form book, you know, but with picture books, you know, that you, like, you need to be writing a lot and They're not all going to get picked up, and especially not your first one, usually, because you're still learning.
• 14:40
  Kirsten: So just writing them and then getting feedback and making them better, that's all a part of writing.
• 14:45
  Kirsten: Like you're learning your craft and keeping going.
• 14:47
  Kirsten: So, you know, you can do courses and you can, um, go in comps and do things like that.
• 14:52
  Kirsten: But I just think the best thing is writing.
• 14:54
  Kirsten: That's the thing that helps you learn.
• 14:56
  Kirsten: And the other thing that I really love doing is studying mentor texts.
• 14:59
  Kirsten: So when I Find books I really like, or sometimes even books I don't like, working out what it is I don't like, or what I love about it, and then trying to think, well, how do you capture that essence, or what is it?
• 15:09
  Kirsten: So it's sort of almost like learning off, you know, other great writers, sort of, I really like doing that as well, um, study.
• 15:17
  Kirsten: So yeah, and just keep writing, and just, you know, take a little time to learn something.
• 15:23
  Kirsten: So yeah, to think your first one is going to be I think almost, I got really good feedback very early on.
• 15:30
  Kirsten: Um, and at a top publishing house, they sort of was saying, Oh, inspired, you know, fantastic.
• 15:39
  Kirsten: Let's talk at a manuscript assessment.
• 15:41
  Kirsten: And she took it to show everyone around and at the publishing house, whatever.
• 15:45
  Kirsten: And I was like, and that was like very almost my second assessment ever or whatever.
• 15:48
  Kirsten: And it was very exciting and like, it was so great because she loved both the manuscripts and, um, but then it just, I never heard anything.
• 15:56
  Kirsten: And it was just so.
• 15:58
  Kirsten: I don't know.
• 15:59
  Kirsten: I just had never experienced that before.
• 16:01
  Kirsten: Like, if you're so excited about it, then you just wouldn't give anything back.
• 16:04
  Kirsten: I just, that was a big learning.
• 16:07
  Kirsten: And so I sort of, I didn't really know how, what the timeframes were, so I suppose for the first year I just still thought, well maybe there's some hope there.
• 16:14
  Kirsten: But I'm actually in retrospect really glad nothing ever came from that, because I think it's just made me a much better writer.
• 16:20
  Kirsten: And when I look back at those manuscripts, you know, I'm glad they didn't become books.
• 16:24
  Tina: Yeah.
• 16:25
  Kirsten: And um, yeah, so I think, yeah, just, I'm quite a patient person.
• 16:30
  Tina: Yeah, patience in this industry is definitely a skill that we all sort of need, and I have to keep working at it myself.
• 16:40
  Kirsten: Like I see some people who just, you know, do really great things really quickly, and I think that's They're so lucky, but then you hear about other people who get a deal really quickly and then might be 10 So that would be harder, I reckon, than, yeah,
• 16:54
  Tina: a really important point.
• 16:55
  Tina: Published authors get rejected too, a lot.
• 16:59
  Tina: Like you ask any of them and they, you know, sometimes they're, they're very lucky to just get rejected.
• 17:04
  Tina: Keep pitching ideas and getting each one of them sold, if anything, they still even need to just work with their publisher to finesse ideas, I guess, um, because the, you know, the initial ideas aren't, you know, getting picked up.
• 17:17
  Tina: So that's important to never, never goes away.
• 17:19
  Tina: Does it?
• 17:20
  Tina: So just learning to learn from rejections really important.
• 17:24
  Kirsten: that's right.
• 17:25
  Kirsten: And also if your goal is to like, my goal is to just try and write as best I can and just get better and better.
• 17:31
  Kirsten: So actually don't, it's not about getting as many publishing contracts as I can.
• 17:35
  Kirsten: Some people have different goals.
• 17:36
  Kirsten: Some people want publishing contracts and I think, you know, I have another job, so I don't have to be trying to hustle and make.
• 17:43
  Kirsten: Money, there is no money, but make money, you know, or try to get lots of, um, things happening.
• 17:51
  Kirsten: So I just, the reason why I want to keep my other job is like, that's why I got the other job.
• 17:56
  Kirsten: Once I decided I do want to be a writer in a library so that I can, I don't have to do that, have that pressure and I can just, um, take my time and do it.
• 18:04
  Kirsten: It suits my personality better than a real hustler, but I mean, it works for some people and good on them, but yeah, it's not mine.
• 18:11
  Tina: Yeah, that's a really good point.
• 18:14
  Tina: What has been something that has surprised you about your journey, either before or after publication?
• 18:23
  Kirsten: Um, well, the publication bit, what surprised me is how much there is to learn and how much work you have to do.
• 18:34
  Kirsten: So I knew it would be learning curve, but it was just like next level because the whole writing journey is a learning curve because you start and you're learning as you go.
• 18:42
  Kirsten: So it's just learning all the time, which I love that.
• 18:44
  Kirsten: But just this year has been pretty intense.
• 18:46
  Kirsten: So many first things and putting yourself outside of your comfort zone.
• 18:50
  Kirsten: Um, so.
• 18:54
  Kirsten: And hustling and self promo and all those things.
• 18:57
  Kirsten: So I was with a small publisher who didn't have a proper city department or anything.
• 19:00
  Kirsten: So I had to do it sort of all myself.
• 19:03
  Kirsten: I didn't really know.
• 19:03
  Kirsten: And I was just running blind, you know, as well.
• 19:06
  Kirsten: Like, so, um, I did have some wonderful key people helping me.
• 19:11
  Kirsten: Claire Thompson with a bit of marketing, um, and things like that.
• 19:15
  Kirsten: But, um, Yeah, it was very much out of my comfort zone.
• 19:20
  Kirsten: So, um, but you know, they say that growth and magic only happens when you're out of your comfort zone.
• 19:26
  Kirsten: So it's been a really great year for that.
• 19:29
  Kirsten: I can't reckon I've learned more this year or had more first experiences.
• 19:35
  Kirsten: It's all my adult life, you know, since I was a kid, um, cause when you're a kid, you're having first experiences all the time, you know, cause everything's the first time you've done it.
• 19:42
  Kirsten: Well, I felt a bit like that this year.
• 19:44
  Kirsten: Everything
• 19:45
  Tina: incredible.
• 19:46
  Tina: That's amazing.
• 19:47
  Tina: Yeah.
• 19:48
  Kirsten: do this and you just do it.
• 19:49
  Kirsten: I just did them.
• 19:50
  Kirsten: Everything.
• 19:51
  Kirsten: I just said yes to everything.
• 19:53
  Tina: Yeah, we get it so used to just life, just, you know, going on day each day, take each day as it comes.
• 19:58
  Tina: And then, yeah, getting thrust into the spotlight with a book and book deal and a launch is pretty, it's pretty different.
• 20:06
  Kirsten: Yes.
• 20:07
  Kirsten: And I'm, you know, I have a bit of anxiety and things, so I do quite like to sit in my comfort zone a lot of the time.
• 20:14
  Kirsten: Yeah.
• 20:17
  Tina: So tell me, I can see in the background there, like again, it on the shelf, which looks amazing.
• 20:23
  Tina: What was it like for you to see it on the shelf for the first time in a bookstore?
• 20:30
  Kirsten: On, on, on launch day, I went, um, to, down to Byron, to the, I think the Book Room Collective, whatever, anyway, and went in there and we had to search for it for a while.
• 20:45
  Kirsten: And then, um, and sort of, it's a bit so awkward.
• 20:48
  Kirsten: And then eventually, I worked up the courage to say to the girl that my first book, and she was so lovely.
• 20:54
  Kirsten: I can't remember her name offhand.
• 20:55
  Kirsten: I did put it on my socials.
• 20:57
  Kirsten: Post they posted about it, but she was so lovely and she said, do you want to sign it?
• 21:01
  Kirsten: I said, would you like me to sign it?
• 21:02
  Kirsten: And she goes, yes.
• 21:03
  Kirsten: And she got the pen and everything.
• 21:04
  Kirsten: And then I went to sign it and I thought, Oh, I haven't thought of what to write.
• 21:07
  Kirsten: So it was not written.
• 21:09
  Kirsten: But yeah, it was very fun.
• 21:11
  Kirsten: It was, it's, I don't know.
• 21:12
  Kirsten: I sort of thought, and seeing it for the first time when you're unboxing it as well, like that.
• 21:18
  Kirsten: just actually seeing it for the first time.
• 21:20
  Kirsten: Like, I love watching other people's unboxing.
• 21:23
  Kirsten: I always thought, oh, it's so cringey, I don't want to do it.
• 21:26
  Kirsten: But it's so real that first moment that you see it, that you get all those feels.
• 21:30
  Kirsten: It really is quite emotional.
• 21:31
  Kirsten: So, yeah, a lot of work has gone into getting to that point.
• 21:37
  Tina: Yeah, because a lot I find a lot of the The journeys since signings just felt really surreal and like a bit of a dream.
• 21:44
  Tina: And then you, you know, you're working on the book and you do see it quite a bit, but always online.
• 21:49
  Tina: So it still kind of feels like a bit of a dream.
• 21:51
  Tina: So it's not until you hold that hard copy in your hands that you're like, no, this is, this is pretty, this is happening.
• 21:57
  Tina: This is a real thing.
• 21:59
  Tina: I can touch it.
• 22:00
  Kirsten: And it takes a while to sink in, I think.
• 22:02
  Kirsten: And I think probably having more books will help with imposter syndrome.
• 22:07
  Kirsten: So when you have more
• 22:08
  Tina: can't hurt.
• 22:09
  Kirsten: you're lucky because you'll have a series of books.
• 22:11
  Kirsten: But yeah, I think that helps because then you, I don't know, then that one book is less quite precious.
• 22:18
  Kirsten: Not that it's less precious, but I don't know, then you sort of build up a collection or a work.
• 22:23
  Kirsten: I think I'm looking forward to that.
• 22:25
  Tina: Yes, and I'm sure you will.
• 22:27
  Tina: Um, okay.
• 22:28
  Tina: So now, do you read your Goodreads reviews?
• 22:34
  Kirsten: I think they've all been written by friends and writing friends.
• 22:38
  Kirsten: They're easy to read.
• 22:39
  Tina: Oh, so that, so they're all positive.
• 22:42
  Kirsten: I think they are, yeah.
• 22:44
  Kirsten: I'm a five star.
• 22:47
  Tina: Now, um, I was asking one of our other debuts the other day, how long it took them to, for somebody to point out that there was a typo in the, in their book, but given it's a picture book and every single word is, Is, um, studied so intently?
• 23:05
  Tina: That question probably doesn't really relate.
• 23:09
  Kirsten: Well, no, in this book, no.
• 23:13
  Kirsten: Um, but with my, um, that's one of the pieces of advice I'd say though, really take that Um, when they send you the final copy to go through before it goes to print, really, really spend time on that.
• 23:29
  Kirsten: You're so far along the process and you know the manuscript so well that you can sort of read that a little bit more quickly and not, and you can miss things.
• 23:39
  Kirsten: So I think it's really important because even just commas and things in a picture book can change the meaning or, or, um, something.
• 23:49
  Kirsten: So it's, and yeah.
• 23:53
  Kirsten: Not this book, but my, my second book, there was a, one word was meant to be italicized and I missed it and, um, I didn't pick it up until afterwards and it was too late.
• 24:05
  Kirsten: So it didn't matter, it was, it was fine, but, you know, I just thought it really is important to spend the time because nobody knows the manuscript as well as you do.
• 24:15
  Kirsten: You are the champion of that manuscript and as much as the editors are wonderful and they help you or whatever, you know it, you know how it's meant to read in that bit and, um, exactly what that's meant to be.
• 24:28
  Kirsten: So, yeah.
• 24:29
  Kirsten: That's really crucial because like I said, I missed something and it was the next day that I said, Oh, that should have been italicized.
• 24:35
  Kirsten: And when I went back to the manuscript that got accepted, it was italicized.
• 24:41
  Kirsten: So it was just a, a miss somewhere along the line.
• 24:43
  Kirsten: Um, and so, yeah, and then it was too late just one day later.
• 24:47
  Kirsten: So yeah, they really pay attention and.
• 24:51
  Kirsten: Yeah.
• 24:51
  Kirsten: And it's really important that final one.
• 24:55
  Kirsten: And sometimes you want to print it out.
• 24:57
  Kirsten: I print it out and I read it over and over and do the page turns and all of that just to make sure, because that's the final chance.
• 25:04
  Kirsten: So yeah.
• 25:05
  Tina: it is hard at that point, isn't it?
• 25:06
  Tina: Especially when you've read it so many times.
• 25:09
  Tina: To read it with a fresh set of eyes, looking for something different.
• 25:12
  Tina: You're almost just skimming over words.
• 25:15
  Tina: It can be pretty hard.
• 25:17
  Kirsten: Yeah.
• 25:17
  Kirsten: That's right.
• 25:18
  Kirsten: And also I, I found that as a first, as a debut author.
• 25:23
  Kirsten: Um, when, if changes were made or things like that, I had to work up to feeling confident enough to say something.
• 25:32
  Kirsten: Um, so I didn't, I desperately didn't want to be like an author who was, uh, um, too precious or, you know, um, wanted to have too much control or anything like that.
• 25:47
  Kirsten: So I had to weigh that with also being the one who really knows the manuscript.
• 25:51
  Kirsten: And so I did have to go to bat a couple of times on that.
• 25:56
  Kirsten: What are quite small things, but they can have a big impact.
• 26:01
  Kirsten: And I think, um, every time I did that, and it was so much, how do I come up with words to say it?
• 26:08
  Kirsten: Um, and it came with, we got better outcomes.
• 26:12
  Kirsten: So I would definitely say, if you're unsure about something, ask.
• 26:17
  Kirsten: If you, um, yeah, um, if you, something doesn't sit right, Say that because you'll have a reason why as long as you know why you're not just saying I don't like that But you can say when you do that see how it changes the pacing or something in the illustrations Might happen and you go.
• 26:36
  Kirsten: Oh, I don't think we want to show that in the illustrations yet That's meant to happen two pages later We could do it this way And it would work, but it does change the pacing in this way.
• 26:48
  Kirsten: So explaining how, because that's your job, you're the author, you've written it that way for the pacing or for the, the page turn for the surprise or whatever it is, um, or the emphasis or whatever the thing is.
• 27:01
  Kirsten: So you know that, and sometimes the editor or the publisher is busy or whatever, and just might not have picked up the reason why.
• 27:08
  Kirsten: So if you can say why you did it like that, and that, you know, Um, then often I just found that people would come on board or they, they would go, yeah, that's, I see that.
• 27:17
  Kirsten: Yes.
• 27:17
  Kirsten: Let's do it that way.
• 27:18
  Kirsten: Or, or we could come to some other agreement.
• 27:20
  Kirsten: And that was really a learning thing as well.
• 27:23
  Kirsten: Finding my voice in the publication process, um, that I really enjoyed as well had to be brave.
• 27:30
  Tina: Yeah.
• 27:31
  Tina: Well, that's very important.
• 27:32
  Tina: And like you said, no one knows it like you do.
• 27:34
  Tina: And all you can do is ask, right.
• 27:36
  Tina: Or all you can do is bring it up and you know, um, there's could be conversation around it and it could stay the same or it could just be that they hadn't thought of it that way.
• 27:46
  Tina: And it just, like you said, makes it so much better.
• 27:48
  Tina: So it's always, it is always, and even for yourself, you're just going to feel better that you just brought it up and you don't want to always, yeah, be stewing on it.
• 27:56
  Tina: Yeah.
• 27:57
  Kirsten: They can tell you their reasoning.
• 27:59
  Kirsten: So, so you might say, but when this, when we change that, this happens and they'll say.
• 28:03
  Kirsten: Yes.
• 28:04
  Kirsten: And that happens.
• 28:05
  Kirsten: And so therefore that happens.
• 28:06
  Kirsten: And you can go, Oh yeah, I like that.
• 28:09
  Kirsten: Or I like that.
• 28:10
  Kirsten: But what about if we just change that one word back to that?
• 28:12
  Kirsten: Or so then you can get a collaborative process happening, but you feel a part of those changes and sometimes they'll say, Oh yeah, I didn't think like that.
• 28:20
  Kirsten: And yeah, so I think as long as you've got a reasoning behind it and the reasoning is always.
• 28:26
  Kirsten: That it works best for the manuscript, for me.
• 28:28
  Kirsten: That it's never about what I want or what I like.
• 28:31
  Kirsten: It's always about what the manuscript needs in that point or what makes it stronger.
• 28:36
  Kirsten: So yeah, I think as long as you're always coming back to that, any suggestion or idea or feedback is, I think, appreciated in the process.
• 28:44
  Kirsten: And as a debut author, it's just learning that you're appreciated.
• 28:48
  Kirsten: Like you're, you're a valuable part of that process.
• 28:50
  Kirsten: So that was, um, Yeah, I, that was a good learning.
• 28:54
  Tina: Yeah, that is good learning.
• 28:56
  Tina: Um, so you mentioned before, though, about your second book that you have coming out, Kirsten.
• 29:03
  Tina: So, um, you had Like a Gannet this year, 2024 and, um, you know, working towards that and the publication of that book, but you've also been working on another book for release very soon.
• 29:16
  Kirsten: Um, so that's called The Big Backyard Plan.
• 29:18
  Kirsten: Um, and it's a picture book.
• 29:20
  Kirsten: And it releases on the 23rd of February.
• 29:23
  Kirsten: And, but it's with a firm press.
• 29:25
  Kirsten: And they call that a March release.
• 29:26
  Kirsten: So, talking March.
• 29:29
  Kirsten: Um, and do you want the one
• 29:32
  Tina: Do you have that?
• 29:32
  Tina: Can we hear the one liner?
• 29:33
  Tina: Yes, please.
• 29:36
  Kirsten: So it's a fun, joyful picture book about living next door to your best friends and coming up with a brilliant plan to make it even more amazing if only you can convince your grown ups.
• 29:48
  Tina: That sounds like a lot of fun.
• 29:50
  Kirsten: Yes, they wanted to empower kids by acknowledging that they have excellent ideas and can be change making.
• 29:56
  Kirsten: Because it has some environmental themes and I think we're going to really need kids to be, come up with some great ideas and make them happen.
• 30:05
  Kirsten: To address some of the big challenges that we have.
• 30:07
  Tina: Yeah, that sounds incredible.
• 30:09
  Tina: I'm sure that's going to be an amazing book and everyone.
• 30:12
  Kirsten: who wouldn't want to live next door to their best friends?
• 30:14
  Tina: Yeah, no, that's right.
• 30:15
  Tina: It sounds fun.
• 30:16
  Tina: That's yeah, it's exactly.
• 30:17
  Tina: So what's the age group.
• 30:18
  Tina: What's it aimed at?
• 30:19
  Kirsten: Uh, I think a three to seven.
• 30:21
  Kirsten: You're four to seven.
• 30:22
  Kirsten: Yeah,
• 30:23
  Tina: Yeah,
• 30:23
  Kirsten: I think even older kids will.
• 30:26
  Kirsten: Like I would definitely do school visits with older kids as well, so.
• 30:31
  Tina: So exciting.
• 30:32
  Tina: So what do you, uh, do you have a launch date or what's your
• 30:36
  Kirsten: No, but we don't know yet.
• 30:38
  Kirsten: Maybe a Melbourne launch with Laura.
• 30:40
  Kirsten: That's what we're planning at the moment, but I don't know if that'll happen.
• 30:44
  Kirsten: If we can make it happen, that'll be lovely.
• 30:45
  Kirsten: So Laura Stitzel is the illustrator and her work is amazing.
• 30:52
  Kirsten: Yeah, I've loved this whole year.
• 30:54
  Kirsten: While I've been doing my last year, while I was doing my debut, I was also doing all the editing process for this book.
• 31:00
  Kirsten: And so it was lovely having the two books at the different stages and, um, and the two different publishing houses because it was different learning and different ways of working with both.
• 31:10
  Kirsten: So, um, and just watching last year as Laura's illustrations came in and brought the book to life was amazing.
• 31:17
  Kirsten: Yes.
• 31:17
  Kirsten: So that's very exciting.
• 31:19
  Kirsten: Yeah.
• 31:20
  Tina: So you were saying before, one of your own top tips was to always be working on something else.
• 31:25
  Tina: So is there a third book?
• 31:27
  Tina: Is there something that you want to share?
• 31:29
  Kirsten: No, nothing else contracted.
• 31:31
  Kirsten: So I have another one that, um, I have a couple that are waiting that I think.
• 31:41
  Kirsten: Um, they're waiting to see how this one goes at a firm before they take it to acquisition.
• 31:46
  Kirsten: So, because
• 31:47
  Tina: normal, isn't it?
• 31:48
  Tina: A normal process.
• 31:49
  Kirsten: yes, well, they thought it might be a good follow up.
• 31:51
  Kirsten: So, we'll see how that goes.
• 31:53
  Kirsten: Um, but yeah, and I've submitted other ones that I'm waiting on as well.
• 31:56
  Kirsten: So, yeah, I've got things out there.
• 31:57
  Kirsten: Um, but like I said, I haven't done enough writing.
• 32:00
  Kirsten: I'm in a wonderful critique group.
• 32:02
  Kirsten: Um, and I've been so absent this year because every time it would come around, I'd go.
• 32:07
  Kirsten: I don't have anything again, like, oh my God.
• 32:09
  Kirsten: So yeah, I'm really looking forward to getting back into.
• 32:13
  Kirsten: Getting some first drafts written.
• 32:15
  Kirsten: I've done editing.
• 32:16
  Kirsten: I could edit in this process, um, while I was in that headspace this year.
• 32:21
  Kirsten: And I've written I think one or two things, but hardly anything.
• 32:24
  Kirsten: So yeah, I'm really looking forward to getting back into it.
• 32:27
  Kirsten: I've got a list and list of ideas that I've had that I've had to just write the idea down and put it aside.
• 32:31
  Kirsten: So
• 32:32
  Tina: Yeah.
• 32:33
  Tina: Yeah.
• 32:33
  Tina: New words, new words are so funny.
• 32:35
  Tina: You don't realize how much you miss them when you haven't been writing new words for a while.
• 32:40
  Tina: You spending so much time editing.
• 32:41
  Tina: Do you find I really just recently got stuck into some new words and I forgot what that was like.
• 32:49
  Kirsten: it is fun.
• 32:50
  Kirsten: I, I must admit the first draft's not my favourite.
• 32:52
  Kirsten: I love editing.
• 32:53
  Kirsten: I love wordplay and the sound of the word and making it beautiful.
• 32:58
  Kirsten: That's what I love about a picture book, um, that you quickly get that first draft down and then you spend the time crafting it and making it more beautiful and bringing out the story and all of that.
• 33:09
  Kirsten: So that's what I love and it scares me about middle grade and things when you've got so much writing you're not that happy with because you're just getting that first draft out.
• 33:21
  Kirsten: That, I hate that bit.
• 33:24
  Tina: Yeah.
• 33:25
  Tina: Yeah.
• 33:25
  Tina: Like throwing out 30, 000 words cause you're gone on the wrong track is not fun.
• 33:30
  Kirsten: Yeah.
• 33:30
  Kirsten: So, so yeah.
• 33:31
  Kirsten: So, but, but it is fun and it is a nice headspace to do it.
• 33:34
  Kirsten: And I just have to remember, no one's going to read this.
• 33:36
  Kirsten: Just write it.
• 33:37
  Kirsten: Just enjoy writing it and then get the first draft down and then yeah, play it.
• 33:41
  Kirsten: But for me, most of the magic comes in the editing and I really enjoy it.
• 33:45
  Kirsten: So that's why,
• 33:48
  Tina: Well, that's so exciting.
• 33:49
  Tina: And I can't wait to read your new book.
• 33:52
  Tina: Uh, now finally, what is your top tip for us aspiring and emerging writers?
• 33:58
  Kirsten: um, don't be in a hurry.
• 34:02
  Kirsten: I think, um, so as much as we all want to be published.
• 34:07
  Kirsten: I think it's good just to remember that all the timelines we put on ourselves are self imposed.
• 34:13
  Kirsten: And, and so if we just enjoy the writing side of it, um, because that's actually what being a writer is, writing.
• 34:19
  Kirsten: And getting published isn't a job, it's just something that happens.
• 34:24
  Kirsten: If you're doing your job, you know, like, which is writing, so, and editing and all the things you do with your critique, getting critiqued and putting yourself out there.
• 34:31
  Kirsten: But yeah, it's actually, that's where the joy is in the writing and the writing process.
• 34:36
  Kirsten: So, um, just try and enjoy that and nurture your creativity.
• 34:43
  Kirsten: Don't get depleted and work on your craft and keep improving and putting yourself out there while you're doing all those things.
• 34:51
  Kirsten: Then the publishing will come.
• 34:53
  Kirsten: So, but don't make that the goal, like don't hang your hat on that because that's something you have no control over.
• 34:59
  Kirsten: And that's, and quitting quitting is the other thing that I recommend.
• 35:04
  Kirsten: Um, whenever it just feels too hard or just.
• 35:09
  Kirsten: If you're just not enjoying it, I think, actually, what am I doing this for?
• 35:13
  Kirsten: I don't have to do this.
• 35:14
  Kirsten: Oh my God.
• 35:14
  Kirsten: I don't even have to do this.
• 35:16
  Kirsten: And then you just quit.
• 35:17
  Kirsten: And then you just go, yeah, I don't know how to do this.
• 35:20
  Kirsten: And then like, seriously, one day later you go, Oh, that's a great idea.
• 35:24
  Kirsten: And all of a sudden you're inspired and you have, you're excited again about it.
• 35:28
  Kirsten: So it's just sometimes you're pushing a bit hard and yeah, it gets too horrible or just it's not enjoyable.
• 35:35
  Kirsten: Yeah.
• 35:35
  Kirsten: Quit.
• 35:36
  Kirsten: And then it won't last long, I promise.
• 35:37
  Kirsten: And then, and then you start again and it's way fun again.
• 35:41
  Tina: That's really a good advice.
• 35:42
  Tina: I don't think anyone's given the top tip yet to just quit when, but no, I see what you mean.
• 35:47
  Tina: If it gets too hard, then maybe you're just trying to, what's the term, squeeze blood from a stone.
• 35:52
  Tina: Is that what the term
• 35:53
  Kirsten: I think, and maybe you're depleted.
• 35:55
  Kirsten: I think we push and push and push, and we're all so driven and dedicated.
• 36:00
  Kirsten: Um,
• 36:01
  Tina: a
• 36:01
  Kirsten: know, you just get depleted and you're just like, Oh my God, I might even have to do this.
• 36:06
  Kirsten: I'm just doing it because I want to do it.
• 36:07
  Kirsten: And you're like, that's right.
• 36:08
  Kirsten: I want to do it.
• 36:09
  Kirsten: Ah, so if I don't want to do it, just quit.
• 36:11
  Kirsten: And then.
• 36:12
  Kirsten: Very soon I'll want to do it again.
• 36:15
  Tina: Yeah.
• 36:15
  Tina: You gotta leave your brain space open for the new ideas to come in, I suppose.
• 36:20
  Kirsten: Yeah, that's right.
• 36:21
  Kirsten: And just stop sometimes forcing.
• 36:23
  Kirsten: So quit.
• 36:24
  Kirsten: Have a couple of days off where you're thinking, I don't have to be a writer if I don't want to.
• 36:29
  Kirsten: And then, um, yeah, you just get all filled up.
• 36:32
  Kirsten: And then all these creative ideas come.
• 36:35
  Tina: That's really good advice.
• 36:37
  Tina: Oh, thank you, Kirsten.
• 36:38
  Tina: Thanks so much for chatting with me today.
• 36:41
  Kirsten: Lovely to chat with you.