Latest / Inside Politics / Sussan Ley: From punk teenager to rebuilding the Liberal Party

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Sussan Ley: From punk teenager to rebuilding the Liberal Party · Inside Politics

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  S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
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  S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. Today we have
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  S1: a very special guest for our podcast. She's a former shearer.
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  S1: She's a pilot and a mother of three. She has
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  S1: a dark past as a punk in Canberra. She has
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  S1: been one of the only women in the room in
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  S1: successive Liberal cabinets. She was the deputy to former opposition
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  S1: leader Peter Dutton and following the last election she, of
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  S1: course took his job. She is, of course, opposition leader
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  S1: Sussan Ley. Welcome to the podcast, miss Lee. Thank you
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  S1: so much for joining.
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  S2: Nice to join you, Jacqueline.
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  S1: We also have our chief political commentator, James Massola. We're
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  S1: going to talk about the coalition's so-called women problem. We're
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  S1: going to talk about how you plan on stopping a
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  S1: split within the coalition over energy policy. And most importantly,
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  S1: we just want to get to know you as a
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  S1: person and find out who you are for the benefit
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  S1: of our listeners. Um, so listen, I just want to
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  S1: give you an opportunity to introduce yourself because a lot
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  S1: of our listeners won't know a lot about you. Do
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  S1: you want to just give us a brief personal bio?
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  S2: My story is a very Australian story, a migrant to
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  S2: Australia in my mid teens with a passion for flying aeroplanes,
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  S2: landed in Canberra eventually and went to school at two
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  S2: great Canberra public schools and was determined that I would
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  S2: fly aeroplanes. Worked three jobs to do that, struggled along
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  S2: the way, failed along the way, had a bit of heartbreak,
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  S2: ended up working in air traffic control and then as
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  S2: an aerial mustering pilot in western Queensland. While in the
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  S2: shearing sheds, I met my then husband and came home
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  S2: onto the family farm in north east Victoria and I
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  S2: described myself as a farmer's wife. Life on the land
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  S2: was tough as it is for so many who live
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  S2: on the land today. I've walked many miles in their
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  S2: shoes and so while raising my three children, I went
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  S2: to university at age 30 and gained qualifications in economics,
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  S2: tax law and accounting and worked for the Australian Tax Office.
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  S2: And that pathway led me to a fascination with politics,
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  S2: but more importantly, the economic policy debate. I saw the
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  S2: way it linked with the lives of my family and
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  S2: the small rural community in which I lived. So when
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  S2: I say my story is an Australian story, I love
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  S2: it when I tell my story. And then I meet
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  S2: people around the country who give me their versions, who
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  S2: remember as I do, what it was like to walk
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  S2: into a university campus and feel totally out of place
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  S2: as a mum looking, you know, a bit like the
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  S2: battered farm ute that I just stepped out of and
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  S2: holding a crying baby and having another woman who is
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  S2: in charge there come out and say welcome. And, you know,
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  S2: we want to help you in your journey in education.
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  S2: So I hope you can tell Jacqueline, it's not a
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  S2: short introduction. So, um, I'll end there, that the way
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  S2: I see my story and my journey in Australia is
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  S2: through the prism of our liberal values and aspiration, backing
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  S2: someone who wants to have a crack and get ahead
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  S2: and work hard.
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  S3: Just to pick up something you said then, Susan, about,
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  S3: if I may, ending up in Canberra. You've skipped over
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  S3: a little bit there in that. And I find this fascinating.
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  S3: You were born in Nigeria to English parents. As a toddler,
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  S3: you moved to the UAE, to the United Arab Emirates.
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  S3: You went to boarding school in England and then you
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  S3: ended up in Canberra. Tell us about that. Is there
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  S3: a legacy, I guess, from that moving around for you?
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  S3: Did it teach you something? Did it leave a lasting effect?
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  S2: I love the Emirates. As a child, I loved the
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  S2: wide open spaces of the desert. But I'll be honest,
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  S2: it was really tough to be sent to boarding school
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  S2: on the other side of the world, age ten. And
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  S2: we didn't have FaceTime and we didn't have phones. And
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  S2: so I didn't speak to my parents for months on end,
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  S2: and my mother would write to me on a little
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  S2: blue aerogram some people will know what they are. And
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  S2: after breakfast, we'd all walk into the room and look
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  S2: to see if we had a letter. And I often
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  S2: didn't have a letter, and I didn't know what was
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  S2: happening in the rest of my family. And I remember
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  S2: it was tough and it developed in me that sense
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  S2: of self-reliance that you've got to depend on you because
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  S2: there's no one else. And in all of that, there
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  S2: was this sort of magic of my father having said
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  S2: to me since I was small, one day we're going
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  S2: to move to Australia and we're going to have this
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  S2: incredibly different life, and the family is going to be together.
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  S2: So I hung on to that, and I actually studied
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  S2: the Murray and Murrumbidgee rivers in geography as a child
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  S2: in an English boarding school and Drew Griffith, Leeton and
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  S2: Narrandera on the map. And now I represent those communities
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  S2: as a local MP.
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  S1: You were manifesting your future.
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  S2: But what I. But but the magic of Australia was
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  S2: something that when I landed in Brisbane, we lived there
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  S2: briefly on a small farm for a while. I just
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  S2: saw this incredible country, this bright blue sky, and I've
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  S2: obviously loved it every single day since. But it is
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  S2: such a privilege to share that migrant story, but to
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  S2: listen to everyone's migrant story as well.
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  S1: Yeah. Okay. So you come to Canberra as a teenager, famously,
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  S1: you became a punk in the Canberra scene. What in
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  S1: the 80s.
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  S2: Late 70s.
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  S1: Early 80s 70s, early 80s, being a punk with its
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  S1: anarchical sort of philosophy is not something that we generally
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  S1: associate with people on the conservative side of politics. Were
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  S1: you drawn to the punk aesthetic or the music or
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  S1: the philosophy?
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  S2: The way I saw punk then, as someone who didn't,
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  S2: I didn't fit in at school. My British accent singled
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  S2: me out. Um. Ah, I didn't make friends easily. And look,
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  S2: it was it wasn't great. Um. It's funny, you know,
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  S2: I walk into any classroom today and I can see
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  S2: the kids who are like me, and I can identify
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  S2: with them, and I know what it's like. But I
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  S2: found myself in Dixon College. Yeah. And Dixon College was
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  S2: the sort of educational institution where you could be who
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  S2: you wanted to be. You didn't have to wear clothes. Sorry.
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  S2: You didn't have to wear uniforms. You could wear what
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  S2: you like.
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  S3: It was liberal.
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  S2: But I remember walking, walking to school, up the bike
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  S2: path from the Dixon shops with bare feet and, you know,
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  S2: crazy outfits and piercings and the rest of it. Uh,
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  S2: purple hair. No one blinked an eyelid, and this was
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  S2: part of expressing myself. But the punk ethos is a fearless,
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  S2: honest belief in yourself. And that's what I drew on,
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  S2: and that's what gave me the confidence to go forward
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  S2: and do the things that I knew I wanted to do.
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  S1: But then you go on and you join, you join
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  S1: the Liberal Party, which is obviously conforming to an institution.
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  S1: You talk about liberal values. Do you think Australians know
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  S1: what liberal values are, particularly after the last election?
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  S2: I think we need to remind them that liberal values are,
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  S2: in the main, their values. But no, I don't think
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  S2: they heard from us as to what our what our
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  S2: agenda was. And I've said many times we've got to
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  S2: meet modern Australia where they are. We've got to better reflect,
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  S2: respect and then represent modern Australia.
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  S1: So how do you sum up those values? You talked
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  S1: about aspiration just now, but what else is there apart
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  S1: from that opportunity?
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  S2: Reward for effort, hard work that if you commit and
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  S2: you have a crack, we're there to support you get
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  S2: getting ahead and that we're all about a government that
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  S2: is better, not bigger. But I don't want to see
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  S2: an equality of outcome in anyone's life story. But I
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  S2: do want to see an equality of opportunity. And I
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  S2: want I want an economy that is strong enough to
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  S2: work well for the people who get left behind.
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  S3: Do you think, Susan, that people, when they look at
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  S3: the modern Liberal Party today, when they judged, you know,
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  S3: when they cast their vote, I should say, at the
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  S3: last election, the one before that, I don't think they
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  S3: saw that party. I think they saw a party that's
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  S3: drifted to the right too much, and that has left
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  S3: a lot of Australians behind or just just moved away
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  S3: from them. The exact opposite of what you're talking about.
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  S3: I mean, do you agree with that? Do you have
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  S3: a different theory? How do you fix it? More importantly.
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  S2: By explaining that aspiration is the thread that connects every
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  S2: single part of Australian society. So whether you characterize it
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  S2: the way you just have, James, It's not the way
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  S2: I would look at it. I would say that those,
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  S2: you know, center left right descriptions aren't particularly helpful. We've
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  S2: got a broad membership, broad party room, and they reflect
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  S2: lots of different views in the Australian public today. But
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  S2: the thing that connects them all is that aspiration. And
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  S2: we're there for individuals who want to get ahead, who
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  S2: want to have a crack, who aspire in their lives.
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  S2: And we're there to make sure that we have the
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  S2: right safety net for those who fall behind. I want
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  S2: to balance it up with that because, you know, I'm
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  S2: grateful for the opportunities I've had in my life. But
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  S2: I know that I meet people every day who've got
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  S2: more courage than me or any of my colleagues have
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  S2: ever had, just to get out of bed in the
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  S2: morning and and manage their lives and deal with the
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  S2: issues that they're facing. So we've always got to be
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  S2: there for them. And to do that, you do have
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  S2: to have a strong economy, and you do have to
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  S2: have it working well for every single Australian.
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  S1: I mean, you say that the modern Liberal Party needs
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  S1: to represent all Australians and it's, you know, that you
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  S1: have a diversity there, but very famously hasn't really represented
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  S1: women to the extent that it could have, which is
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  S1: why you're liberal. The liberals with female voters have been
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  S1: declining so precipitously over the last few decades. Um, just
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  S1: first of all, before we get into that, would you
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  S1: call yourself a feminist?
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  S2: Well, yes, I would. And it's interesting because the word
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  S2: feminist isn't used much. It was used a lot when
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  S2: I was trying to get into the time. I'm very happy. And, um,
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  S2: you know, and I'll tell you what I mean by feminist,
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  S2: because I used it in the era when, you know,
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  S2: the people who own corporate jets didn't want me flying them,
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  S2: who said to me quietly, we don't have a job
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  S2: for you because it's not us, Susan. It's just that
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  S2: the traveling public doesn't really want to see a woman
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  S2: up the front and, uh, you know, come back next year. Sure. Um,
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  S2: you know that that was something that, you know, burned
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  S2: in me. How? I was completely singled out. Never mind
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  S2: my qualifications, my license, all of the things I'd done,
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  S2: it was, oh, it was simply because of my gender.
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  S2: So we didn't do well with women. I just want
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  S2: to confront that. I want to acknowledge that. I want
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  S2: to say that since in 2001, when I came into Parliament,
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  S2: more women in Australia voted for us than they did
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  S2: anyone else. And that number has been declining ever since.
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  S2: Which is why I am so determined and so insistent
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  S2: that we fix this women's problem.
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  S1: You talked. You gave an address to the National Press
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  S1: Club this week, which was really strong, and we both
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  S1: were really interested in it. You talked in that address
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  S1: about coercive control and domestic violence, and you said that
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  S1: you knew what coercive control felt like. Do you want
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  S1: to elaborate on that at all? Have you had personal
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  S1: experience with it?
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  S2: Look, I have had personal experiences, and I don't choose
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  S2: to share them publicly, but I want the women of
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  S2: Australia to know that I know and that I'm with them,
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  S2: and that I understand how it feels and what it's
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  S2: like and how sometimes, only looking back can you really
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  S2: understand what went on. And when you look at the
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  S2: statistics that I quoted yesterday, in terms of the number
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  S2: of women in this country who have been affected by
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  S2: sexual harassment, coercive control, violence, workplace harassment, you know, even
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  S2: though on some indicators we're improving. You know, I wonder
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  S2: when you look at those statistics, are we improving? Are
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  S2: we doing the best we can do? So the very
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  S2: strong message I wanted to deliver yesterday about this was
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  S2: that this is above politics. This is something that I
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  S2: want to work with the Prime Minister on. And we
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  S2: just have to do better. We can't have years like
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  S2: last year. You know, I remember reading out the names
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  S2: of women who'd lost their lives to intimate partner violence.
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  S2: And in the time it took us to construct the
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  S2: media communication, that number had increased. And that really brought
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  S2: it home to me. It's not good enough.
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  S1: After 2022. The election result was bad. It was bad,
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  S1: particularly in your female vote. You actually said, we hear you,
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  S1: we hear women of Australia, and you were tasked with
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  S1: doing a listening tour. This was back in 2022. What
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  S1: policies did you come up with and were they just
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  S1: not implemented? Were you shouted down in cabinet? What happened?
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  S2: Well, we had a lot of discussion about policies, and
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  S2: I think it's clear that they didn't land in the
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  S2: right way where they needed to. And there's lots of
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  S2: evidence for that.
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  S1: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but what do you mean? When?
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  S1: That's a kind of a vague construction. Do you mean
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  S1: that they weren't taken up by your male colleagues or
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  S1: your colleagues within shadow cabinet?
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  S2: No, I don't mean that. I mean, we supported the
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  S2: government continuing our record women's safety spending. So remember, when
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  S2: we left government, there was a spending trajectory in place,
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  S2: included record spending for women's safety. We supported a $500
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  S2: million policy for women's health. We came up with individual
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  S2: women's health initiatives around support for ovarian cancer about further
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  S2: support for endometriosis. So I was part of quite a
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  S2: lot of of of the policies that people saw. Now,
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  S2: in the end, I think this is an important point, Jacqueline.
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  S2: People saw and heard herd policies, whether it be in
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  S2: women's health or housing or other areas. They weren't even
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  S2: sure which party was proposing them. That comes back to
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  S2: one of the things we have to do. We have
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  S2: to communicate well to Australians about the things we support,
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  S2: the things we come up for.
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  S1: Do you really think that's all it was? That the
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  S1: Australian voter wasn't able to distinguish between liberal policy and
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  S1: labor policy, or not at all? Something more along the
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  S1: lines of the cultural. Um, the cultural environment of the
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  S1: liberals or what? What women think that that represents?
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  S3: Well, just I mean, it's the perception that it's a
• 13:26
  S3: really blokey party. Yeah.
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  S2: Uh, yes. And and and and I understand why that
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  S2: perception is there. Because that's what you see. And the
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  S2: picture tells the story. Uh, look, it was many of
• 13:37
  S2: those different things. And the feedback I got, the anecdotes
• 13:40
  S2: that I've heard have, uh, fed into my thinking. And
• 13:44
  S2: obviously our review by Pru Goward and Nick Minchin will
• 13:51
  S2: articulate more. Look what actually happened. And and give some, uh,
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  S2: further meat on the bone, so to speak.
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  S1: That's the review of the election campaign, that is.
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  S2: But it will be. It will include it will include
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  S2: our policies. It will include our connection with women, with
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  S2: young people, with migrant Australia, Australians, multicultural communities. It will
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  S2: include all of that. And I just want to say again,
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  S2: it will be frank and fearless, honest and made public. Okay.
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  S3: Yeah. Look, something I wanted to pick up on. Um,
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  S3: it was a recurring, uh, thing, a recurring theme with
• 14:24
  S3: Peter Dutton that. I mean, you may disagree, but I
• 14:28
  S3: think he paid lip service to the need to win
• 14:30
  S3: back those teal seats that were lost in 2022. Why
• 14:34
  S3: do you think the liberals lost those seats in 2022?
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  S3: Why do you think they failed to pick them up? Well,
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  S3: other than Tim Wilson in 2025.
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  S2: Big shout out to Tim Wilson for winning back the
• 14:44
  S2: seat of Goldstein. And he will have a lot of
• 14:48
  S2: really important data to present to us as a party room.
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  S2: We're meeting in the next couple of days, as you
• 14:54
  S2: may know, um, about where we went wrong. And the
• 14:57
  S2: beginnings of that review process are already underway. So again,
• 15:01
  S2: without getting ahead of the review, I can give you
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  S2: my thoughts at this point in time. And they are
• 15:07
  S2: that we didn't meet women where they expected us to be.
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  S2: We certainly didn't meet younger Australians, and in some instances
• 15:14
  S2: they didn't consider us at all. So when you talk
• 15:16
  S2: about a view they may have had of the Liberal Party,
• 15:19
  S2: some of the feedback was they didn't think about the
• 15:22
  S2: Liberal Party. So, you know, there are obviously serious issues
• 15:26
  S2: to address there as far as how we communicate our message,
• 15:29
  S2: which is very important because no matter how well we
• 15:31
  S2: might do in building a policy platform, politics is about
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  S2: communicating and connecting with the voter. Um, well, I spoke
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  S2: to a lot of women in the teal seats. Can
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  S2: I say, um, particularly those busy mornings when everyone's lined
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  S2: up to go in to vote and they're taking a
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  S2: how to vote card or they're not? And I was
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  S2: quite upfront and, you know, many people knew who I was.
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  S2: And I said, can I tell you can I ask
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  S2: you why you're refusing to take our heart of gold
• 15:56
  S2: or what's what are you thinking? And in many cases,
• 15:59
  S2: they said, we don't know that the modern Liberal Party
• 16:01
  S2: understands our busy lives as mums with children, worrying about childcare,
• 16:07
  S2: worrying about our mortgages, worrying about the cost of living,
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  S2: worrying about our elderly parents. This is the life I've lived. Personally,
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  S2: I remember those years. You know, you're piling the children
• 16:15
  S2: in the car, you're rushing off, you're trying to finish
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  S2: your university assignments. You've got your employer, even if it's
• 16:20
  S2: a generous employer. Um, but, you know, you need to
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  S2: get there. You've run out of leave, and then you've
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  S2: got the home front and you don't feel you're doing
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  S2: anything properly, and you've just got this sort of, um,
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  S2: feelings of, ah, you know, that working, working mum. Guilt,
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  S2: if I can call it that. And then there are
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  S2: women who talk to me, and this is at polling booths, too,
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  S2: about the challenge of having children and stepping away from
• 16:45
  S2: a career. How do you time it? How do you
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  S2: not miss out on all of the work that you've
• 16:49
  S2: done to put into your career.
• 16:50
  S1: And how do you ensure your own financial security in
• 16:52
  S1: the future? How do you on that question, do you
• 16:55
  S1: support quotas or not? Yes or no?
• 16:57
  S2: Well, I support anything that brings more women into our party.
• 17:00
  S1: That is quotas, isn't it? Based on historical evidence.
• 17:02
  S2: If a state.
• 17:02
  S1: Division, historical evidence.
• 17:03
  S2: If a state division comes up with quotas to achieve
• 17:05
  S2: the outcome, then I'm all for it.
• 17:07
  S1: Are you.
• 17:07
  S2: Agnostic?
• 17:08
  S1: Are you?
• 17:09
  S2: Yes. If they come up with another method to achieve
• 17:10
  S2: the outcome, I'm supportive too. Because remember the Federated Liberal Party?
• 17:16
  S1: I know, I know what you're trying to say, and
• 17:18
  S1: I don't mean to interrupt you, but people do get
• 17:20
  S1: very frustrated with this because quotas work. We know that
• 17:23
  S1: it's the only thing that works historically if we're looking
• 17:26
  S1: at the evidence. Right. Um, what other methods could there be?
• 17:29
  S1: And why doesn't the Liberal Party just pull the trigger
• 17:32
  S1: and do it? You're the you're the head of the
• 17:33
  S1: Liberal Party now, you could surely.
• 17:36
  S2: One of the one of the things that I value
• 17:38
  S2: in the Liberal Party is the autonomy of our state divisions.
• 17:41
  S2: That's the party we are. That's where we've come from.
• 17:43
  S2: It's not a.
• 17:44
  S1: It's not a view.
• 17:45
  S2: It's not a top down, hierarchical approach. The only view
• 17:48
  S2: I have is that we must get more women in
• 17:50
  S2: our parliamentary party. I'm not going to tell divisions or
• 17:54
  S2: individuals how to get there. I've got women who are,
• 17:57
  S2: you know, standing up right now.
• 17:58
  S1: Your influence though.
• 17:59
  S2: Absolutely, absolutely. I am I think I've started that already. Well,
• 18:03
  S2: I'm arguing for the results because you're talking about a process.
• 18:07
  S2: I'm talking about an outcome. And that outcome has to
• 18:09
  S2: be more women. It's not, by the way, everyone talks
• 18:12
  S2: about the women in, in, in the Parliament. That's vital
• 18:15
  S2: to get those women in the parliament. We have to
• 18:17
  S2: have those women putting their hand up, joining the party,
• 18:20
  S2: standing up, which.
• 18:21
  S1: Takes a long time.
• 18:22
  S2: So it can take time. But one of the things
• 18:25
  S2: I do, by the way, is meet women one on
• 18:26
  S2: one and say, yeah, have you thought that what you're
• 18:29
  S2: doing is pretty amazing and I reckon you align with
• 18:32
  S2: our values? We'd love you to join us. So we're
• 18:34
  S2: starting to have those conversations.
• 18:36
  S3: So in your view, being the first Liberal Party leader
• 18:38
  S3: to say quotas, I'm open to them. Is is that enough?
• 18:42
  S3: And then as an addendum to that, you know, Margaret
• 18:45
  S3: Guilfoyle Network was set up after the last election to
• 18:47
  S3: solve the women problem in inverted commas. It's never been
• 18:50
  S3: heard of again. Then you've got Charlotte Mortlock and Hilma's network,
• 18:54
  S3: which is actually out there doing things. Will you engage
• 18:58
  S3: with them? What specific things will you do to get
• 19:01
  S3: more women in? Like one specific thing.
• 19:03
  S2: Talking about it is not enough. You're absolutely right. Engaging
• 19:07
  S2: with people who are working hard to make it happen
• 19:10
  S2: is high on my priority list. Talking one on one
• 19:12
  S2: with women is high on my priority list, too. Um,
• 19:15
  S2: can I just come back to the remark I made before, um,
• 19:18
  S2: somebody years ago said to me, why don't you join
• 19:21
  S2: your local Liberal Party? And I did. Um, others have
• 19:25
  S2: said to me, why don't you put your hand up
• 19:26
  S2: for this in terms of our party and I have
• 19:30
  S2: and I, I love seeing women do well. I love
• 19:35
  S2: being part of mentoring officially or unofficially for younger women.
• 19:40
  S2: And I'm not the only one in our party that
• 19:42
  S2: is well equipped to do that. So we will all
• 19:46
  S2: be involved, all of my team, in making sure this happens,
• 19:50
  S2: and I'm very happy to be judged by the outcome,
• 19:52
  S2: by the way.
• 19:52
  S1: All right. Well, we'll come back to you. We'll get you.
• 19:54
  S2: So come back to me.
• 19:55
  S1: We just need to ask you very quickly about net zero.
• 19:57
  S1: Obviously you had you famously negotiated a brief but rather
• 20:02
  S1: bitter split with the coalition with your coalition partner. Um,
• 20:05
  S1: at the beginning of your tenure. Uh, net zero is
• 20:08
  S1: going to be probably the most divisive issue within the coalition.
• 20:11
  S1: What is your personal view on net zero? Obviously, you've
• 20:14
  S1: backed it in the past.
• 20:16
  S2: We got smashed at the last election, and all of
• 20:18
  S2: our policies are up for review. So I need to
• 20:20
  S2: say that because every policy, including energy policy. So you've
• 20:24
  S2: talked about net zero. It's one part of energy policy.
• 20:27
  S2: I've set up a working group led by Dan Tehan,
• 20:30
  S2: who's the shadow minister for energy. I'm not going to
• 20:33
  S2: get ahead of what this working group will do, but
• 20:36
  S2: it will include everyone who wants to have a say
• 20:40
  S2: on what will be an iterative and continuous policy development process.
• 20:44
  S2: So whatever the government brings forward, that group and our
• 20:47
  S2: wider party room will be able to consider it. But
• 20:49
  S2: our energy policy will be underpinned by two fundamental things
• 20:54
  S2: Our responsibility in the face of the global challenge of
• 20:57
  S2: climate change to reduce emissions, and that we must have
• 21:02
  S2: a stable, reliable energy grid so that households and businesses
• 21:06
  S2: can have affordable electricity. As I mentioned, those two things
• 21:10
  S2: because they're they're key to the energy policy going forward,
• 21:13
  S2: and they're also key to how we will hold the
• 21:15
  S2: government to account.
• 21:17
  S3: These are all eminently sensible things that you're talking about.
• 21:19
  S3: But meanwhile, has anyone told the Nats that, um.
• 21:22
  S1: Are they Matt Canavan sort of, um, doing his own
• 21:24
  S1: review about net zero, isn't he. And he already we
• 21:26
  S1: already know what he thinks about net zero.
• 21:28
  S3: And when that party room meets, that nationals party room
• 21:30
  S3: meets for the first time post-election. I mean, I would
• 21:33
  S3: not be hugely surprised if the first thing they do
• 21:36
  S3: is dump net zero.
• 21:38
  S2: Well, I'm not inside the nationals party room, and I've
• 21:41
  S2: always said they will do policy for the nationals. Inside
• 21:43
  S2: the nationals party room, we'll do policy for the liberals
• 21:45
  S2: inside the liberals party room when we come together as
• 21:48
  S2: a shadow cabinet and then step out with a policy
• 21:52
  S2: decision that's made, then that unifies us all. So it's
• 21:56
  S2: important that we do get the process right leading up
• 21:58
  S2: to that. And I acknowledge there are different views.
• 22:00
  S1: We're going to extract a promise from you now that
• 22:02
  S1: you'll come back after, and you'll talk to us about
• 22:04
  S1: net zero and all of the other things. We hope
• 22:06
  S1: this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
• 22:08
  S2: Look forward to.
• 22:08
  S1: It. So much for having, having making the time to
• 22:11
  S1: come on. We've really enjoyed having you.
• 22:12
  S3: Yeah.
• 22:13
  S1: And unfortunately, we have to let you go.
• 22:15
  S2: Thank you. Thank you both.
• 22:19
  S1: Today's episode was produced by Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is
• 22:23
  S1: our head of Audio. To listen to our episodes as
• 22:26
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  S1: or smh.com.au. Subscribe. I'm Jacqueline Maley, thanks for listening.