Latest / Butterfly Days w Tami Jorden / Aging Parents: The Stuff, the Car Keys & Your Sanity with Kirsten Mau

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Aging Parents: The Stuff, the Car Keys & Your Sanity with Kirsten Mau · Butterfly Days w Tami Jorden

• 0:10
  speaker-0 (00:00.3)
• 0:10
  You know, there are some conversations, some episodes of this podcast, in fact, that may or may not resonate with you. But this one, this episode, this episode, I think is really gonna connect with you somewhere in where you really live. This is a conversation that's needed to happen. I'm talking today to Kirsten Mao, and you're gonna love it. She is the founder and creator of Get Ready, because I love this title.
• 0:11
  She's the founder and creator of Who Gets the China, which is dedicated to helping women of the sandwich generation. That's you and me, baby, save their sanity while navigating life with aging parents, especially downsizing the stuff. Kirsten is a communications expert. She's got a lot of years of building brands, organizations, and putting her skills to work for others. But this is what's cool. She is bringing those skills to bear to help.
• 0:12
  Us. Who gets the China is a podcast. It is also who gets the China dot com. So you can find it as a resource. We'll talk more about that later. But right now, we got to get to it because some of the stuff she shares is just gold and you're probably going to want to share it with friends. So let's get on with the show.
• 0:13
  Welcome to MyReal. I'm Tammy Jordan, and this is Butterfly Days, the podcast that proves you're not past your prime. You're living in it right now because women don't have expiration dates. Butterfly Days is a celebration of the extraordinary potential of Gen X and Boomer women. Throughout history, women have shared wisdom to uplift and empower one another. And you're about to learn hard-earned wisdom and best-kept secrets.
• 0:14
  From interesting, inspiring women. So if you're ready to embrace your butterfly season with confidence, find joy in the present, and create a legacy that matters, you're in the right place. No more holding back. Let's spread our wings now. Here we go!
• 0:15
  speaker-0 (02:12.748)
• 0:15
  Welcome to my realm. This is Tammy Jordan, and you're listening to Butterfly Days. Today our guest is Kirsten Mao, and you are going to love this conversation. Kirsten is the founder and creator of the Who Gets the China website. I think we all know, I've been clear, I think it's one of the best named websites. It's so pet. Thank you. So well done. Kirsten, why did you start?
• 0:16
  speaker-1 (02:38.232)
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  Ha ha.
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  speaker-0 (02:42.796)
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  This particular project. You're an accomplished woman with a lot going on in your life. I'm sure you needed something else, but you were moved by this subject. Why?
• 0:18
  speaker-1 (02:55.308)
• 0:18
  Stress reduction, I'm going to say in a word. I needed stress reduction, Tammy. This topic, like we talked about, is coming up in group chats all over the place. Phones are blowing up with our friend groups about what's the latest thing that you're facing with your aging parents. And for me, the thing that really became present, especially during the pandemic, was the amount of stuff that my mom had.
• 0:19
  It's a lot of stuff. It's perhaps not more than many families, but it started to dawn on me that someday we were gonna have to deal with all this stuff. And how were we going to do that? But more than that, how could I use as an opportunity to connect with my mom? Because all the stuff that we have doesn't mean anything without the stories, the connections, the history behind it. And she doesn't really want to
• 0:20
  Go through a lot of things, and I don't blame her, but I tried to start saying, Well, let's pick the things that matter to me or to you, and then let's just start breaking it down. How are we gonna do it? So that's what started it. And really, I came home all the time. And while I was on my trip, I'd be sharing with my girlfriends, like, my gosh, my mom has this, you guys. I think carbon paper. I found some carbon paper in my mom's office. And in that moment, I thought, well.
• 0:21
  Okay, my mom moved to California from Connecticut 25 years ago. I'm sure she has not used carbon paper in those 25 years and perhaps hadn't used it in the 25 before. And while that's a really small, lightweight thing, it's just a symbol of this is the kind of stuff we're uncovering. So how am I gonna save my sanity?
• 0:22
  while I'm doing this. And then as you know, when we start one project, right? We get into it, we want to do a deep dive. One thing leads to another. And I joined the Colorado Commission on Aging. I'm helping out with some subcommittees on that. And I'm part of collaboration on aging and a lot of other advocacy groups focusing on aging well. And so it just sort of all came together that this was something I needed to start and give me a platform to expand on.
• 0:23
  speaker-0 (05:08.126)
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  This is fantastic for lots of reasons because you know it's so stinking resonant because we are dealing with parental aging and with the stuff that comes with that. Maybe that's in the house or the 25,000 foot long list of health, wellness, financial, you know, just all of the
• 0:24
  social things that need to be supported, understood, untangled, whatever. And then the sure knowledge that they're probably twenty to thirty years tops older than we are. So maybe we need to think about at the same time. So it becomes a dual level ish.
• 0:25
  speaker-1 (05:59.31)
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  Absolutely. Absolutely. I think we have so many conversations when we come home from visits to my parents and my husband and I say, Okay, we're gonna tackle this because we're not that far down the road from them. And for me, a lot of it, and I know from a lot of other women that I've connected with, we feel the burden. We wanna take care of our parents. We really do. We want to do the best job possible. But when we look at all the stuff and the houses that need to get sold and the all the things that need to happen.
• 0:26
  Many of us think I don't want to leave this for my kids. And so the decluttering becomes really real. I mean, this weekend I had made my therapist a commitment. I was gonna go through my craft closet because my mom has so much fabric and I'm ready to
• 0:27
  speaker-0 (06:43.694)
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  I loved it.
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  speaker-1 (06:45.324)
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  The pillows. I mean, there's so many things. And I just said, I told my therapist, I'm struggling myself to download to get rid of all this stuff. So she said, just pick one thing this week and come back and tell me. So I told my husband, we're getting this done this weekend because I have an accountability partner that's waiting for me to say, my craft section is done. And so yesterday I just felt such a feeling of lightness and peace, knowing that I had solved this. It's a small thing, but it's something. And I don't want to leave a big mess for my kids. Yeah. And hopefully that doesn't happen soon, right?
• 0:29
  But I don't wanna leave it for later. I wanna enjoy my life now.
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  speaker-0 (07:20.394)
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  A hundred percent. Like I hear you on so many levels. And it is weird though to be in this place where thinking about managing all the parental stuff and then realizing this is about me too. Like if I don't do this now, I'm going to propagate this legacy of too much, you know. Yes. Too much work on somebody else.
• 0:31
  speaker-1 (07:47.274)
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  It really became a process of self-reflection for me. One of my guests who is a palliative care social worker, she talks a lot about what are your values for living well. And I'm sure you have dealt with this in your work. And thinking about, you know, what matters to you in terms of the way you live your life today.
• 0:32
  And then also at the end of life, right? We want to know ahead of time what are the things that matter for us. How are we going to make decisions about end of life care? But I really embrace this values for living well in terms of just my day to day well being. For me, clutter means stress. I don't like it. It just doesn't make me feel peaceful. So I can take that value and say, okay, you know what? I'm going to get rid of some stuff. I'm going to organize.
• 0:33
  But I'm also going to capture the things that I think my kids are gonna value and care about and want so that I it's my job to do. It's not their job.
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  speaker-0 (08:47.51)
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  Yeah. I love that. And just the the pivot with the sense of responsibility. You know, in their defense, I certainly don't know about your parents' parents, but probably your parents didn't have the load of work that you will have to clear their stuff out. So in their defense, it's not like they had this problem and then they're you know capriciously throwing it on you.
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  Times have changed. We have we have all up leveled. We all accept a greater amount of base goods as normative, you know, acquisitions. I think the accrual of acquisition stuff that we acquire has gone up over the years. So the problem that your parents are passing to you is probably not one that they received from their parents. They weren't prepared.
• 0:36
  speaker-1 (09:42.252)
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  Hundred percent. One hundred percent. And but you are you're yeah, and you're right. I mean, there's no malice in it and there's also no real shirking of responsibility in it, but it's just where we are. Yeah. And my mom likes to tell me that she's a child of the depression, which she's not because she was born long after that. But her the way she was raised is with a depression.
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  speaker-0 (10:05.826)
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  Yeah.
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  speaker-1 (10:06.03)
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  And mentality, right? So it was like you used every last drop of that toothpaste. I mean, my mom will cut off the end of the toothpaste tube to make sure she does not waste a drop. And there's nothing wrong with that.
• 0:39
  speaker-0 (10:18.434)
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  Yes.
• 0:40
  speaker-1 (10:22.21)
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  I mean, to at some point it becomes crazy, but my mom does tell a story about she ended up being raised mostly by her grandparents and her mom was nearby, but when her grandparents passed on and her mom was going through her grandparents' stuff, she didn't want to deal with any of it. So she just basically gave it all away.
• 0:41
  And didn't really give my mom a chance to go through and say, like, these are the things that matter. You know, we have a few things of like crocheted blankets from Nanny and things like that, but really limited. And so my mom and I have talked about this quite a lot. And this does inform her way of being because that was a heartbreak for her. Yeah. And so in some ways, her saving things that really mean something to her is a way to kind of repair that sense of loss. Yeah. I know.
• 0:42
  speaker-0 (11:10.478)
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  Yeah. Yeah. You know, though, you bring up a point that could have slid that's actually pretty good for people to think about, which is maybe it's helpful and important to have the conversation with our parents. Hey, you know, I really want to support or however we're going to language it, I will defer to you on any tips for how to say this, but to say something to the effect of I really want to support you in this. And, you know, maybe
• 0:43
  begin the process of making sure that we know what really means something to you and that you want to pass on. But in that process, ferreting out, if there are issues like what your mom had with the trauma in her background, or my parents grew up very, very poor. There's no polite way to go around that. Far lower socioeconomic. And because of that, sometimes they save a lot of stuff because you might need it for just the same thing
• 0:44
  that your mom is conveying with the depression mentality. And for sure that was it where my parents grew up, that was important in an impoverished rural area of the country. So it's probably important that we have some type of sensitive conversation with the parental units just to sort of gauge what's meaningful to them and how they're willing to work with the process. Would you say that's wise counsel?
• 0:45
  speaker-1 (12:38.562)
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  Absolutely. And two things jump out at me right away that I've learned from people who are greater experts than I am. But there's two things that I would say are really important paradigm shifts that have been really instrumental and helpful for me. And one is flipping it from what do you want to get rid of to thinking of it as what's important for you to have around you? What are the things that matter to you? What's meaningful to you?
• 0:46
  What do you want to see when you wake up in the morning? What teacup do you want to use? So that's the first thing is starting from a place of honor, appreciation, value. What means something to you? Right. Maybe I think these slippers are ridiculous and 20 years old, but you love them because for whatever reason they're so cozy. They're broken in. Like I want those slippers every day, Kirsten. I don't want to get rid of them. Who knows? And maybe that doesn't matter to me, but it matters to her. So respecting that.
• 0:47
  Yes. Okay, so really thinking about yes, don't do what I did and walk into the garage and go, my God, we have got to get rid of so much stuff, Mom, this is driving me down.
• 0:48
  speaker-0 (13:46.776)
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  you wanna tell me that.
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  speaker-1 (13:48.948)
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  I know. Don't do that.
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  speaker-0 (13:51.31)
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  I've already I've already messed up. We haven't even started.
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  speaker-1 (13:54.338)
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  We all have. Okay, but you can go back because I did go back to my mom and say, You know what? I've been working with some therapists, some experts, and they've told me that a better way to approach it is what do you want to keep? Okay. So one thing is starting from a place of positivity and what matters, what do you want to keep? And then a second thing that I learned from another one of my guests who's amazing is asking permission. I also failed at this. Greatly I failed at this. Ask your parent. I really
• 0:52
  I think we should go through the frames in the front hall closet. Are you ready to do that?
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  speaker-0 (14:31.019)
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  We need buy-in.
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  speaker-1 (14:32.12)
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  Fruit. Yeah. Are you ready? You're not ready. Okay, fine. I understand. Do you think we could do that in a couple of weeks when I'm here to do X, Y, and Z? When might you be ready? And trying to get their wheels churning and put the responsibility and the power back in their hands. Yeah. And I mean, I'm not saying these are perfect solutions. They're not. But they are little tips and tricks because my mom would say I could hear her on the phone to a friend one day when I was there, and she said,
• 0:55
  Kirsten's here doing Swedish death cleaning with me again.
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  speaker-0 (15:04.878)
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  What I gonna ask you about is you do know about this, right?
• 0:57
  speaker-1 (15:07.7)
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  I mean, I've read all the books, I feel like, and each one has a little nugget and look, you have to take what matters and what feels good to you, right? So of course, take what works for you, leave what doesn't. But I just really had an aha moment of when I'm enforcing it, when I'm driving it, it's not working. But when I can take a breath and say, How can we make this work for you? It's better. Yeah. It's still hard. Yeah. It's still hard.
• 0:58
  speaker-0 (15:33.166)
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  Yeah. Well, one of my daughters was struggling with something in her teen years and my husband had this great observation. He said, I was trying to get her to change something, to fix it, to whatever. And he said, you know, it's not a problem until it's her problem. You got me? And I think by asking for buy-in on when can we do this closet, you're helping it to be
• 0:59
  I'm saying someone's problem, which is the negative way to go at it, but you're allowing them to have buy in ownership and care about the issue in a way that you might also.
• 1:00
  speaker-1 (16:14.754)
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  Absolutely. And that brings me to sort of what I think is a third pillar of this, if you will. A third pillar for me is radical acceptance. Again, this is something therapists are talking a lot about. It's around on all the socials, but how can you find radical acceptance? For you, this was your child didn't want the help. They were not in a place where they were ready to address that issue.
• 1:01
  It's the same with our parents. Sometimes we're ready to attack an issue that we really see needing to be solved, but they're not. And sometimes you have to have radical acceptance. Now, for me personally, because I'm a type A kind of a control person, I'm the eldest daughter, I'll admit it. When I see a danger zone or a problem, I really want to solve for it. But I have had to, through coaching and through lots of practice, yeah, have some radical acceptance.
• 1:02
  They're not ready to deal with this thing. Like for our family right now, it's a little bit of getting a part time caregiver in the house to help be eyes on, as your other guest talked about. Eyes on. We need eyes on the situation. And they are really reluctant to take this step. So I need to have a little radical acceptance until it gets to the time where, okay, it's a must. Not a nice to have.
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  speaker-0 (17:34.328)
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  Yeah. You know that I was just talking with somebody about that exact subject the other day, about getting somebody in for at least partial time care and about the resistance that came up. And some of the issues that sort of came forward for us as we were talking it out is one, how would you like it if somebody was gonna come live with you? It would massively not sound good.
• 1:04
  And so we're talking about that and we're like, yeah, I mean, you can understand it. But, you know, by the same token, if they get hurt or, you know, they don't realize they're doing something, we're gonna have a much larger problem here. But part of what our takeaway was there's a hidden, I think it's obvious and yet hidden at the same time. There's a hidden loss in an issue like this.
• 1:05
  One is you're gonna have somebody in your house, you might lose some of your privacy, okay. But the other one is if you need somebody watching you, you're seeing progression of aging. And if that's sort of a validation that it's actually going on, the thing we all were afraid of. So to admit you need help is to admit that you're aging.
• 1:06
  And to admit that that aging is actively ongoing right now, even though we all know of course it is. But yes it can be super tricky to acknowledge it because it's admitting something much bigger.
• 1:07
  speaker-1 (19:11.256)
• 1:07
  For sure. For sure. And I work with one of the women who's been a guest and will be a guest again. She's a an LCSW who specializes in helping people make healthcare home health care decisions. She's like a home health care. Okay. So one of the things that she talks about is how to sell your parents on the idea of having some in home help because we all are going to walk this tightrope, right? Where it's better two days early than ten days late or whatever that
• 1:08
  Phrases, right? If you wait too long, it's bad. It's possibly tragic, right? So some of the things that she has encouraged me to think about are one is to your mom and dad, you're doing this for me, not for you. It will help me sleep better at night. It will help me and my sister feel more at ease, knowing that there's an extra set of hands available in an emergency if we need it.
• 1:09
  Do you want me to be up at night stressed out and worried about you? I know you don't want that, 'cause you're great parents, you love me, you care about me. Would you try this as a gift to me?
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  speaker-0 (20:19.724)
• 1:10
  Yeah. And if it doesn't work we have another conversation like you
• 1:11
  speaker-1 (20:24.088)
• 1:11
  can get Right. Nothing is nothing's in stone. Right. Yeah. We can pivot. If you don't like this. And so my sister and I have leveraged that. And I will say it has made some progress. So we are making progress. We're not a hundred percent there, but like that message has resonated. I think as with anything with our kids, with our coworkers, colleagues, you have to
• 1:12
  Find your way in with that person, what's going to be a meaningful message with them. And the other thing that she talks about is the spoons theory, which is really this idea, I think use it a lot with kids that might have developmental differences and attention challenges. And it's understanding we only have so much capacity in an hour, in a class, in a day, in a week. And so you have eight spoons. You've got eight spoons to spend for the rest of the day.
• 1:13
  Once you use them all, you're gonna be done. You have no energy left. What are the spoons that matter for you? Is doing the dishes a spoon that really matters? Is cooking dinner a spoon that really matters? Or is getting to your garden club meeting, getting to your quilting meeting, cooking dinner, like what are the things that you want to prioritize? Some help can take a spoon or two out of the drawer for you, solve it for you. I know it's hard, but actually you might find it frees you up to do the things that matter.
• 1:14
  speaker-0 (21:32.205)
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  Yeah.
• 1:15
  speaker-0 (21:43.832)
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  Yeah, to improve quality of life. You know, and maybe this isn't how we thought that you were gonna do it, but if it works, why do we care? Right. You know, I I think there's you've got some selling potential in there. I love this. You know what you bumped up against another subject that I'm dying to ask you about? The car keys. How
• 1:16
  speaker-1 (22:08.707)
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  Yeah.
• 1:17
  speaker-0 (22:12.482)
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  Because it's such a comment about their autonomy. And you and I don't want to give up our car keys. We know what that freedom means to us that we could leave the house at any time. God help us we didn't know how to order the Uber, but but you know, like, do you have insight tips, experience with first of all, how to approach it and second
• 1:18
  What if it didn't just go smoothly?
• 1:19
  speaker-1 (22:44.014)
• 1:19
  It's not gonna go smoothly, most likely. Let's be honest. It's not an easy conversation. And I did talk to a woman, her name is Denise Kaplan. She's an expert in this. And I did have an interview with her. I can share it with you. But she is a occupational therapist who specializes in this. They do assessments with older adults and help. It's not can you drive or can't you drive? It's what can we do to keep you driving safely as long as possible?
• 1:20
  speaker-0 (23:12.929)
• 1:20
  Okay.
• 1:21
  speaker-1 (23:13.92)
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  Again, it's there is gray area in all of these things. It's not a yes or a no today or tomorrow, but there are things that you can do to be a safer driver. There are all kinds of seat adjusters and window adjusters and different kinds of things that can be brought into play if that's what's appropriate. I think something that's really hard is that doctors don't want to get involved in this. So
• 1:22
  Even if you've had a parent who's been diagnosed with cognitive decline, the doctor doesn't want to get involved. I know. It's crazy, but so
• 1:23
  speaker-0 (23:51.194)
• 1:23
  Makes me so mad. I cannot even tell you. Like, let me get this straight. You want to determine this really hard thing and then just bolt? No. This is like when they made me hold my daughter for shots. This is just wrong.
• 1:24
  speaker-1 (24:07.628)
• 1:24
  No, I know. And there's all kinds of reasons for this which I won't go into here. But the point is many of us might look to our doctor to be kind of the bad guy. If I mean that might work for some, it might not work for many.
• 1:25
  speaker-0 (24:17.838)
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  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:26
  speaker-0 (24:22.178)
• 1:26
  We'll need to talk to the doctor and be clear about that.
• 1:27
  speaker-1 (24:25.068)
• 1:27
  Need to talk to the doctor. I know. Because they don't want to report it because then it can go on their driving record or it can be part of the record. So I mean there are all these nuances, but Okay. I think for many of our parents, they can hearken back to having to do this with their own parents. They remember. I mean, my dad tells the story of my grandfather was grew up in a small town. Everybody knew him. One day he was kind of driving down the sidewalk in the town and everybody was like, Okay.
• 1:28
  Time, it's time they called my dad. They made the oldest brother do it to talk to the dad and say, I'm taking away your keys. And I think that's a common assignment that the oldest sibling does have to take on, which is tricky. No, I know. I mean, my sister's been amazing, I will say. She's been maybe she's even more worried than I am. But so I think one thing is talking to your parent to say, talk to them early, right? Don't wait until it's like looming.
• 1:29
  speaker-0 (25:07.128)
• 1:29
  Yeah, I hope my sister's not listening to this.
• 1:30
  speaker-1 (25:22.634)
• 1:30
  If your parent is 65, 70, 75, I don't know, starting to maybe have some challenges. Hey, what do you think would be good benchmarks for us to look at? Yeah. Have the conversation should you be driving? What might you be worried about? What are the things, again, that matter to you about this? Because you might be surprised. And if you can talk about it in the abstract, when it comes time to have the conversation,
• 1:31
  Yeah. You can say things like, hey, remember when we had that conversation a couple years ago about driving? And you mentioned like if I can't find my way around or if I have a couple fender benders, I just want to have that conversation. How are you feeling about your driving? What do you think about it? You might be surprised, or they might just dig their heels in and say
• 1:32
  speaker-0 (26:09.728)
• 1:32
  And say, Well, I'm never giving you the keys. Listen, that's good information too, because if that's what you're dealing with, knowing that up front is gonna allow you to be far sneakier. Mm-hmm.
• 1:33
  speaker-1 (26:11.765)
• 1:33
  I'm never giving you the keys.
• 1:34
  speaker-1 (26:25.484)
• 1:34
  Yes. And I will say what is a good thing to do, and we've done this, is to email the doctor and say, Hey, we're concerned. Please bring it up in the next appointment. Yeah. And even if you don't want to make a mandate, they can say, We are making a recommendation for you to see a driving occupational therapist. Triple A has these we both my parents' doctors have said we recommend you get an appointment with a triple A driving assessment.
• 1:35
  This is not going to take away your license. This is just going to give you information about your safety. Because the other thing too is that there's vision challenges, there's hearing challenges, there's mobility challenges. So it's not just all are you a good driver? Right. It's there are physical shifts that are happening that when
• 1:36
  speaker-0 (27:10.21)
• 1:36
  You're in that body, you don't always register it in real time. Right. Because you got used to that you're not seeing past this part of your vision. You know, like you just don't realize. My dad at one point, he had vascular blood clots, I think it is, and it it would t it was slowly taking out quadrants of the vision in one eye. And he was still working and he's had coronary disease for a long time. So he was fairly young when this started happening.
• 1:37
  speaker-1 (27:13.56)
• 1:37
  Yeah.
• 1:38
  speaker-0 (27:39.244)
• 1:38
  And we had a conversation once in which I was like, Are you sure you should still be driving? And he said, I'm fine, I'm fine. And just this moment came over me and it came out of my mouth. And I was so glad because what I said to him could be important for somebody listening to this. I said, Yeah. And I really appreciate that because I know that you're thoughtful and you're trying to be careful and all the things, but I'm almost not as worried for you as I am for the person that could be hit.
• 1:39
  And he just stopped because he was not gonna hurt himself. He could feel good about that, but the consideration that someone else could be damaged, that can slow your role, you know, and make really assess a little bit better. It's not just about you're gonna get an erect, it's like what if someone else got hurt?
• 1:40
  speaker-1 (28:32.45)
• 1:40
  And that is something that they recommend bringing up with your parent because there are cases where an older adult maybe shouldn't have been driving. There was an accident. If it is a terrible accident, there could be not only financial and guilt repercussions, but there can also be punishment and jails not out. I mean, there are scenarios where older people have had to to do that. So I think most adults want to care for the others around them, right? Yeah. Unless you know, so I think
• 1:41
  Tapping into that insight and that knowledge of like, hey, you know what? I'm just kind of worried. What what if there was a cyclist and you missed them? What if you didn't see them? Like you you would feel terrible about that. We've had a lot of changes in the driving situation in my family over the last three or four weeks. And my mom was in an accident. That was a pretty significant accident. And we think it was caused by the other person, but these things are hard to judge. So
• 1:42
  She was able to take Uber for a couple of weeks while we figured out what was going to happen with the car. And she said of her own volition, I think this is it for me. I think I just don't want to be driving anymore. I know. We were like, thank you, thank you, thank you. Now it's been hard, but yesterday I did ask her, How are you feeling about this? What how's it going? Are you feeling still able to go do the things you want to do? And she said, Well, actually.
• 1:43
  It's been kind of fun. I have a bunch of what I like to call my little chariots, my friends that come over and pick me up and take me to church or take me to Trader Joe's. And actually it's been kind of nice. Like I've had time to spend with friends in a way that I didn't before. So there's been a little bit of a silver lining, I think, for her that she didn't expect. It's hard because you don't want to be a burden. Right. And she knows she can take Uber and she's great with Uber and she will do it. But
• 1:44
  As older adults, we know socializing, staying connected to your communities critical for so many things, right? So this is kind of just a nice way to let people help and increase your interaction and your connection.
• 1:45
  speaker-0 (30:32.492)
• 1:45
  Yeah, I like that there is a possible upside that you could cite or help aim them at because listen, this is not fun for anybody involved in the story, having to talk about it or not. You know, what about in the case where because maybe you have this as well, you don't live near your parents, not most, but very many of us do not live right near parents. How are we gonna know that it's a problem?
• 1:46
  speaker-1 (31:02.252)
• 1:46
  The driving or specifically well
• 1:47
  speaker-0 (31:05.528)
• 1:47
  think in the drive in that you know something, it could be other issues. Like do you find that somewhat challenging to keep up with like medical status and things like that because of distance? Do you have any insight into that? I
• 1:48
  speaker-1 (31:20.44)
• 1:48
  Do. I think it is challenging. And I think the thing with driving, and actually this is something that my the occupational therapist really highlighted for me and I took it to heart. Typically, if you're going to visit your parents and you have older parents or often, you might be the one to drive. Right. You'll say, like, I'll drive. We're going to the grocery store. I'll drive. Okay, don't do that. You need to at least one time while you're there let them drive.
• 1:49
  maybe two times because even this happened for us where all of a sudden we realized my dad got confused about where he was going and it gave us a little bit more insight into what was going on. Wasn't yeah too scary. But if you're the kind of person that you're always just like, you know what, I'm here, I'll drive because I feel safer when I drive, take a time or two to watch them. And I thought that was good advice because otherwise you're not going to know. I mean, or you can ask neighbor I think neighbors are surprisingly helpful.
• 1:50
  I mean, as a remote caregiver, so many things are important. Having a human village of people around, do you know the neighbors? Do you have the neighbor's phone number? So my sister and I have been really intentional about this over the last two years. Let's we you know, we know the neighbors a little bit, but we don't live there. So let's get their number. Even like, you know, people that come to the house to do things for them, let's get their number. I can text you know, so that was critical because my mom there was an e health episode.
• 1:51
  And my dad needed to go to the emergency room and neither my sister nor I were there. And so we were able to call the next door neighbor and say, Hey, are you around? Here's what's going on. Can you jump in and help? And of course she was glad to help. So I think when you're remote, the things that a lot of people talk about are having a community of people that you can reach out to that are your support system, your kind of your village. And then having also that kind of that digital village. So bringing in the ways you can stay connected digitally.
• 1:52
  And electronic health record access is something that comes up all the time. You gotta find a way to finagle your way into your parents' electronic health record. This is critical. I just was advising some friends yesterday who were dealing with some things, this is a must do. I'm not gonna talk about the advanced directives and all those things because there's other people that are better experts on that than I, but we all know those are important. Right. So I called my dad's doctor one day and said, Hey.
• 1:53
  speaker-1 (33:40.364)
• 1:53
  You know what? I'm helping my dad out. I would really like to have access to his electronic health record. Can you do that? Yes, they can absolutely do that. We had a HIPAA form. My dad signed a HIPAA form, HIPAA disclosure when he went in. He didn't even really know what he was signing. I just said, hey, this lets them talk to us in the event that something comes up. And he was like, in my dad's case, luckily he said yes. I know it's trickier for some, sure. But it's really this kind of in case of emergency, please let me be able to help you.
• 1:54
  speaker-0 (33:45.411)
• 1:54
  Yeah.
• 1:55
  speaker-1 (34:07.212)
• 1:55
  And then reached out to the doctor's office and said, Hey, can you send me an invite to my dad's Epic Connect EHR? And so now I have my own view. I can see. So I can read all the test results that come back in. If he has an appointment, I get an alert. Same with my mom. And I can say to my mom, Hey, I I'm happy to jump on. Can I be part of your call? And I would say again with this, building trust is critical.
• 1:56
  They're not just gonna let you show up at their doctor's appointment. Do you wanna have your mom or dad all of a sudden at your doctor's appointment? No. No, we don't. We really don't. But I have found, and again, I'm not perfect. I've learned through making a lot of mistakes. If you just be quiet during the appointment and you listen and you take notes, the first time they're so grateful afterward to have a record of it and they know that you're not gonna be speaking for them.
• 1:57
  Now over time my mom will say, Hey Kirsten, did I forget anything? And usually it's like, Yeah, you did forget something kind of major. But she knows I'm there as her advocate, as her support, not her boss. And so they're willing. I think so. I for us it has been.
• 1:58
  speaker-0 (35:13.548)
• 1:58
  Yeah. What I mean, just to affirm anybody's dignity, it is. Of course. Yeah. You know, just to to make sure that that's appropriately the respect is appropriately in place. Yeah, I have to say something with my with my own parents are not probably as far along as yours are. They're doing fine living where they are. My mom is still driving. I'm not at this point worried about, you know, that it's imminent that we need to move a license.
• 1:59
  all the good things, but they are halfway across the country away. But I have started doing the call when the appointment starts and put me on speaker. Listening or teaching her how to use her voice memo and just turn it on and at least let me hear this appointment. Yes. It's better if can be on speaker or if you can not zoom, but FaceTime for it.
• 2:00
  speaker-1 (35:52.418)
• 2:00
  Totally. That's great.
• 2:01
  speaker-1 (36:01.718)
• 2:01
  Yes.
• 2:02
  speaker-1 (36:07.382)
• 2:02
  Yeah, FaceTime. Yeah. I mean, we do that pretty often. And I think also we were at a doctor's appointment recently with my dad and I mean I also work in healthcare, so and as you well know, some places will not allow recording. Now, I did ask if I could record it and the doctor said no and I did record it anyway because it was a highly complex appointment that we were in and I knew I needed to remember it. And so sorry, I I know that the hospital system doesn't want me doing that, but this is my appointment and I'm not gonna do anything with it. So I
• 2:03
  speaker-0 (36:36.598)
• 2:03
  And it's my own personal information.
• 2:04
  speaker-1 (36:38.398)
• 2:04
  But I mean then, you know, there are also now I'm gonna some people are gonna have a heart attack, but there is AI, right? We have AI. You can use your own it doesn't have to be the public chat GPT, but you can then take the notes that the doctor that you took from the appointment, whatever the doctor said, and you can help break it down into plain English or next steps or
• 2:05
  What do I need to do next? Like again, I work in healthcare, so I don't advocate using Google MD as your primary healthcare provider to make decisions. But it can break down complicated topics and help you know, okay, what do I need to focus on for the next appointment? So any recording that they'll let you do, even if you're listening, Wow, that's amazing. Little things because other you forget. Or or you know, I my sister and I will debrief, right? And she'll be like, did you ask about this? And I'm like, shoot.
• 2:06
  speaker-0 (37:22.072)
• 2:06
  Yeah, yeah.
• 2:07
  speaker-1 (37:30.84)
• 2:07
  For okay, next time. We try to keep we keep notes. I mean, we have as probably you do too, right? We all have notes on our phone. We have shared notes. Don't forget to ask about this. Actually, there are a lot of apps now, these health tech and age tech apps that are available that will help do this and help, you know, build LLMs to do AI recording and assessment right in the app.
• 2:08
  But that's a topic for another day. But so there are lots of technological solutions that are available to us that weren't even three to five years ago.
• 2:09
  speaker-0 (38:01.28)
• 2:09
  Right. Because if nothing else, part of what we're dealing with here is just the accumulation of so much information. Like there's just no way that anybody could sort through, especially if you're in the zone of healthcare. Dear goodness. And it's you're already got your own. Maybe you still have kids, you've got a spouse.
• 2:10
  speaker-1 (38:12.791)
• 2:10
  Yes.
• 2:11
  speaker-0 (38:28.438)
• 2:11
  And now you're gonna take a parent on on top there's just no way you could. So using a lot the the lifelines that are around us, probably a really a necessary baller move.
• 2:12
  speaker-1 (38:43.176)
• 2:12
  Absolutely. Absolutely. The baller move is asking for help. Which I think speaking for us that are in sandwich generation, you know, you're like this, I'm sure I'm like this. We think I can do this myself. I got it. I can figure it out. Well, maybe, but why? Don't do that to yourself. It's not smart. It's not good for you. It's not good for your family. I think also back to what we were speaking of earlier, you have to remember you are laying the foundation and the programming for your children. Because a lot of people that I talk to
• 2:13
  They are doing exactly what their parents did for their grandparents. And that load can be very heavy. So we want to model for our own children. Here's what I'm doing with my mom, because you're probably gonna end up doing something similar with your own mom or go in an opposite direction and rebel. And we probably don't want that either. So I think it's important for us to remember like even though you're a caregiver and a mom and a spouse and a worker, you need to fill your own cup.
• 2:14
  And I know that feels like such trite advice, but it is so important. If your kids are watching you give up your whole life to take care of your parents, that's what they see as the lesson plan. And y I don't want that for my kids.
• 2:15
  speaker-0 (39:53.738)
• 2:15
  No, I don't want it for my kids, but I also think that there will be a certain chunk of kids who think, well, then I'm out of here. I'm not gonna do anything because I don't want to be stuck with that. And the truth is the stuck with that isn't. It doesn't need to be that way. You know, we can show a better way when we are intentional, we think about it.
• 2:16
  speaker-1 (40:05.346)
• 2:16
  Yeah.
• 2:17
  speaker-0 (40:18.568)
• 2:17
  you know, we make choices that honor what really means most to us, which generally most of us want to love and care for our parents and we wanna make sure that they're healthy and all the things. That was another thing back when something we were talking about earlier, but just seems really important to have a thoughtfully placed bar for these kinds of issues, whether it's driving our health or cleaning the house or whatever it is.
• 2:18
  to have an appropriate bar at what's acceptable, what's reasonable, what's gonna fly. Cause otherwise it seems to become relative and moved around, not in strong, healthy ways. Let's just say that.
• 2:19
  speaker-1 (41:04.75)
• 2:19
  Agree. I think a lot of this is about creating boundaries, holding boundaries, knowing what are important boundaries and feeling good about those boundaries. You know, sometimes you it can feel hard to say, I'm not gonna do that. Or I don't wanna do that. Right. But yeah, otherwise you get subsumed in the caregiving and all of a sudden
• 2:20
  speaker-0 (41:16.387)
• 2:20
  Yeah.
• 2:21
  speaker-0 (41:23.008)
• 2:21
  It's all for
• 2:22
  speaker-1 (41:30.202)
• 2:22
  you're not living your own life. And I think for me, that's been really the most powerful and resonant part of this is how do we live our own best life while also caring for our aging parents? It's about that. At the end of the day, that's what matters here. And having tools, having a community, having a support system, having knowledge from which we can take off helps us feel more intentional, more
• 2:23
  speaker-0 (41:43.308)
• 2:23
  Yes.
• 2:24
  speaker-1 (41:59.182)
• 2:24
  empowered about living our own best life while we're also caring for parents and kids and others.
• 2:25
  speaker-0 (42:05.258)
• 2:25
  No, that's exactly right. How do we keep quality of life that's, you know, somewhere in the range of good and of healthy and proper modeling for our kids or nieces and nephews or whatever your particular situation is. And how do we how do we communicate respectfully to the other generation? The twist here, I think, is that many of us are not sure how to language.
• 2:26
  what we're trying to accomplish or how to back up first and think of it if it were being said to us, what would be a better way to come in the front door, you know? So employing, you know, instead of just what you and I did, you walk in the garage and lose your stuff.
• 2:27
  speaker-1 (42:56.744)
• 2:27
  Yeah.
• 2:28
  speaker-0 (42:58.786)
• 2:28
  You know? But how to get yourself slowed up front, you can hit that problem in a more beneficial way up front rather than have to fix what you
• 2:29
  speaker-1 (43:09.87)
• 2:29
  I think you some of us have the luxury of not being faced with an emergency. Sometimes we are faced with an emergency. Yes. And you have no choice but to just jump in and you know this better than I do for sure. So if you have been given the gift of time and the gift of planning and the gift of being thoughtful, again, I just think it's important to listen to your parent and what is it that they want. My parents are very clear. We want to age in place as long as possible. So I start
• 2:30
  speaker-0 (43:34.659)
• 2:30
  Yeah.
• 2:31
  speaker-1 (43:39.51)
• 2:31
  almost all of my conversations about shifts that we want to make by saying, I know you want to age in place as long as possible. Let me help you do that. I'm not trying to move you into a facility at this point. That's not what we're after. Having some in home healthcare, it's going to help you stay here longer. Doing your physical therapy, it's going to help you stay here longer. So trying to be what you just said, intentional about the messaging, I think that matters.
• 2:32
  speaker-0 (43:48.469)
• 2:32
  Yes.
• 2:33
  speaker-0 (43:56.46)
• 2:33
  Yeah.
• 2:34
  speaker-0 (44:06.478)
• 2:34
  I think it does too. And I think the other thing is, and it's really hard, is having the conversation as early as you can. I recently took some updated training for my death doola work that's related to supporting people with dementia. And one of the interesting facts that I came away with that all of the therapists and caregivers that were teaching us about dementia said is
• 2:35
  we have yet to have someone come into care that wasn't at least two months past when they should have started in here, at least. Could be significantly further. And that's because it's so dad burn hard to even have the conversation or to admit it to yourself because that's gonna require the conversation. So things to your point, which was phenomenal
• 2:36
  You're gonna end up in a situation in which you no longer have the luxury of time or you can think about it, I'll get back with you. There are things that need to be set in motion up front if you want the easiest experience, which may not be easy. It may have just
• 2:37
  speaker-1 (45:25.946)
• 2:37
  No, but it might be less difficult. Right, exactly. Right. I think the other thing about dementia and end of life planning, which again, you're you are a much deeper expert than I am on this and I would love to have really a great deep dive on it. But if you wait too long, then the person is no longer capable of stating what it is that they want. And then there's a whole host of legal issues that come into play and care decisions. And so I know it's hard, but it's a lot easier to have a conversation
• 2:38
  when it doesn't look like it's that close. Yeah. I mean, I told my after my conversation about end of life planning and funerals, I changed what I thought was the way I wanted my body to be dealt with. Mm-hmm. And I told my nineteen year old daughter, just so you know, I want a green burial. I don't want to be cremated. I want this. And she was like, my God, why are you talking about this, mom?
• 2:39
  speaker-0 (45:59.254)
• 2:39
  When it's not as loaded.
• 2:40
  speaker-1 (46:22.828)
• 2:40
  I mean, they're used to it a little bit now, but because it's really easy for me to tell my daughter now when I mean, I don't know what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. It could be forty years out, it could be a year out. I have no idea. But there's not an emotional weight associated with it. And I so we avoid it 'cause we're scared. Yep. Me too. Me too. But if we can get over that fear and have those conversations before it's two months too late or two weeks too late, that's ideal. It's not always possible. Or you
• 2:41
  speaker-0 (46:28.78)
• 2:41
  Yeah.
• 2:42
  speaker-0 (46:48.312)
• 2:42
  You're right up against it and you've got to make a choice and it's so loaded because of the doula work, you know, I see a lot of people at end of life and we're talking about decisions about what to do with the body or how to treat somebody. And because they didn't want to have any conversations in advance, those choices are now being made with somebody who's unconscious or whatever. And I'm gonna tell you for sure.
• 2:43
  The folks that are making those choices, there's an anguish which kind of breaks your heart a little bit to watch because you're you know they're being so terribly hard on themselves, like I need to make a decision that would please this person. If you can avoid that moment by having a little bit of a harder discussion up front, it's so worth it. On top of that, if you're making a choice from a completely stressed out
• 2:44
  anxious, terrified place, your ability to be creative about problem solving or to come up with, you know, a lot more choices greatly reduced just because the part of your brain, you're in that trauma part, you know, trying to do it. So I appreciate you saying, let's, if you have the luxury of time, see it as such and credit yourself that benefit.
• 2:45
  speaker-1 (48:13.718)
• 2:45
  It's hard to know sometimes what's coming down the road, right? So if you can have that conversation earlier. And that applies to all the things. It goes back to your stuff, back to your mom's China, back to the crystal, back to this photograph, right? I don't know who these people are in these sebotoned pictures. I don't know. They're a great, great-granduncle. I mean, okay, mom, can you write it down on the back? Just finding the opportunity to do that. Yeah. Just let's have these little snippets of conversation that
• 2:46
  Right now it doesn't feel urgent and we don't want it to feel urgent. We don't how do we talk about it now when it's not loaded? It's different for every person.
• 2:47
  speaker-0 (48:47.982)
• 2:47
  Yeah.
• 2:48
  speaker-0 (48:51.788)
• 2:48
  Yeah. And that it is. It's different for every person, for every parental set, for the different. But what I love about this is that women who listen to Butterfly Days are thoughtful, creative, really deeply caring and are looking for ways to think about these aspects of caregiving. Because as women, most of us are the ones that are gonna end up with these sorts of problems. There of course there are men who are
• 2:49
  helping take care of their families. We're not demeaning that. But the chunk of this work, the bulk of it, is generally going to fall to women and to women in our Gen X, Jen Jones age range. So just to be aware of a lot of what you're saying is super helpful. If anyone is thinking, my God, she's bringing up so many good issues, please check out the podcast, Who Gets the China? I know it's on Apple, it's on Substack.
• 2:50
  Spotify
• 2:51
  speaker-1 (49:51.064)
• 2:51
  If I you t we have a YouTube channel, which is really as people love to watch it there too. So yeah, all all the all the things. And then yeah, my newsletter, you can sign up for it on Substack. And then once a week I send a message about something either personal or something that I've learned from one of the experts that I've met with. So I would love to spread the word.
• 2:52
  speaker-0 (50:13.41)
• 2:52
  I would definitely Kirsten's podcast is fantastic, as is a lot of the tips that she's putting out on Substack. When they go to find you on Substack, are you under Kirsten Mao or should we look for who gets the China?
• 2:53
  speaker-1 (50:26.006)
• 2:53
  gets the China? Okay. Yes. And I'll give you the link and you can pop it in your show notes.
• 2:54
  speaker-0 (50:31.5)
• 2:54
  Yeah, that would be great. We will put all that information in there.
• 2:55
  speaker-1 (50:35.192)
• 2:55
  Fun. I love it. And I love all of what you're putting out there. And I love listening to your show and getting your insights from a different perspective and a different lens that really fills me up. So thank you.
• 2:56
  speaker-0 (50:47.576)
• 2:56
  You know, it's funny, I was just thinking that I feel the same way. I was listening this morning to this really excellent episode with Jamie Sarche. And if you guys haven't heard it, you should totally amadullah. You'll know why when you go to listen to the episode. But it was fantastic. And I found myself, I was several episodes in by this point, but I found myself profoundly grateful that there is a voice like yours out there, that you have
• 2:57
  become impassioned about this and that you're talking about it because it is subject matter that will make us better if we share the discussion between ourselves and if we help each other sort and sift through what's maybe not as important to get to, this is a great tip. I love a great tip. I feel like
• 2:58
  You're doing by all of the guests that you're bringing in, you're bringing in a lot of just genuinely good information and it just it just makes me root for you, baby, and root for your show. I think it's a good show and I think you're doing good work to help us get this whole age thing is just so different. We're living longer. We're in better shape. Yeah. It's not
• 2:59
  speaker-1 (52:02.38)
• 2:59
  be here for a while. So we need to get ready. And I love it. It's amazing the network of people that are out there that know so much who want to share it. So I had a great time tapping into that.
• 3:00
  speaker-0 (52:16.152)
• 3:00
  You're darn good at it. I can tell you that for sure. And I would I would happily say that to my audience. Thank you so much that you took the time because I know you're really busy, but I you took the time to join us and just share with these things. I encourage everybody to get out there and listen to several episodes of Who Gets the China. I think that you will be very glad you did because you'll have usable information that makes your life and probably your parents a little bit better.
• 3:01
  speaker-0 (52:46.4)
• 3:01
  I'm so grateful you listened to this episode. I hope it was a real value to you. If there's a sister in your life who needs this message, please share it. Just like women have done to lift each other up over the centuries and across cultures. Women lifting each other is so important. It's why I do this work. And to avoid FOMO and keep up leveling your own life, make sure you don't miss the next episode.
• 3:02
  You may be losing hormones, but your life has given you powerful perspective. And I believe you have something to give that no one else does, that the world needs. So remember, I'm rooting for you. Let's go.