Latest / Birth at Work / S2 EP25 | Dr. Emily Guarnotta: Postpartum Depression Hides in Plain Sight
Transcript
- Krislyn Powell: Hi everyone. So thrilled that we have Emily Guarnotta on our podcast episode today. ⁓ She's going to bring insight and in-depth conversation on not only what it's like being a mother and owning a business, but also the mental health perspective of all of that ⁓ and big shifts and awareness that we can keep in mind ⁓ as mothers and fathers ⁓ as we build our families and our careers. Emily, I am so excited to have you today. I'd love for you to just take a couple minutes and introduce yourself and share a little bit about you with our audience. Emily Guarnotta: Well, thank you so much for having me, Krislyn. I'm Emily. I'm a psychologist that works with parents who are navigating everything from their fertility journeys to pregnancy, postpartum, and even beyond the postpartum period. I own Phoenix Health, which is a therapy practice that specializes in perinatal maternal mental health, and we provide care across the country. And I'm also a mom of two, two daughters who are five and and about to be eight. And I'm also a postpartum depression survivor myself. Krislyn Powell: Thank you so much for sharing just a little bit about you. I'm really thrilled to be able to get into this conversation today. I just, I find your story inspiring and important in today's conversation on working parenthood, what that looks like, the dynamics of supporting birthing and support partners in the workplace. And with all that being said, I'd love to just jump into our questions for today and start this conversation. So. You're a psychologist who specializes in maternal and mental health, and that wasn't always your focus. So what were you doing professionally before that? And when you had your first child, what was that experience like with the postpartum depression that you mentioned? Emily Guarnotta: Well, when I had my first daughter, this is now about eight years ago, I was working as a psychologist at the time, but I was working treating more general anxiety and depression and other conditions. I really honestly wasn't very familiar with perinatal maternal mental health. I know I'm going to use the word perinatal a lot, and I never know if that's... I never knew what it was before getting into this field. So just to clarify, perinatal mental health refers to mental health for parents throughout the whole reproductive journey. So it refers to... struggles through fertility, trying to conceive, pregnancy loss, pregnancy postpartum, and even post postpartum. So when I had my first daughter, wasn't, I was not really well versed in perinatal mental health. I had heard of postpartum depression, but I had never treated a patient with it. I had never really seen it. I didn't know a lot about it. And that whole, the whole experience was really challenging. I pretty much developed postpartum depression right away. I had the baby blues and then everyone was kind of telling me, you'll feel better, just give it more time, this is normal. And then several weeks and months later, I really wasn't feeling better. And I had kind of a hero complex, so I was just trying to push through. I really didn't want to tell anyone in detail what was going on. I think I had a lot of internalized shame and stigma, especially because as a mental health professional, felt, you know, sounds crazy, but like I felt like I should have been able to prevent it from happening. So I just kind of pushed through until the point that maybe six to eight months postpartum when I was just in complete burnout and I finally did go out and seek a provider to get back into therapy and start my healing journey. And then after, you know, I did get better. wanted to learn more about perinatal mental health and how to help other families going through this. So that's when I started re-specializing. I got more training. I got connected with Postpartum Support International, which is a really great nonprofit that provides support and also education to providers in this area. And then that's really been my journey over the last eight years is getting trained in this area, growing my practice in this area, working with other families, and just, you being the support that I struggled to find eight years ago. Krislyn Powell: That's incredible and I am six months postpartum right now so I can also just picture, I mean obviously I'm not you but at that time, that six to eight month time frame that you mentioned, just, I'm living it right now so this is my second experience postpartum but from what you shared, know there have already been some similarities of like, oh I should, like just you know in my head I'm thinking I've done this before you know this is easy like I should be bouncing back quicker and then I'm having to remind myself like no I remember the time frame I felt like this before I remember this time frame it took me about six months you know until I was able to actually get a hard workout in you know like I needed to do my pelvic floor physical therapy and I've utilized the support as well of mental health providers along this journey and just know the importance. I can't imagine, I can and I can't, right? Of being the provider yourself, of helping other people through their own mental health journeys and thinking, I should be fine. I know the tools, I know how this goes. So I think that's really inspiring that you were able to finally kind of take that step of this isn't. you know, this isn't how I want to feel, this isn't normal, I do need to seek more help and then take that experience and build something for other people. So that's, you know, the beauty of this conversation is like, I think there are a lot of mothers that will be listening to this that either are feeling the way that you did, or they are... seeing pain points along their journey that are similar yet different than maybe they could help other moms with as well. And maybe that's something they're listening and thinking, I can build a business. I can help with those pain points or they're listening and thinking, I need help. Like I need to understand this better and not even this is someone that I should be listening to and hearing from. So just what a beautiful intro and thank you for sharing that with us. And as the mental health professional did... that knowledge helped you at all recognize what was happening as you were going through this. I know you mentioned you tried to push through it, you had the tools already, you thought you knew what was going on, and it might have made it harder for you too. What was that like navigating, just going a little deeper? PPD from both sides as the psychologist and as the mom, was it like having two people on your shoulders having that conversation with yourself? Emily Guarnotta: I think for me personally, it actually made it harder to acknowledge what was going on. And I think it really reveals that mental health disorders are not textbook. You can read about them and you can see the different symptoms listed. But when you actually see a person who's experiencing a mental health condition, whatever that is, they're not, they're very rarely going to look like the textbook definition. So when you look at, you know, the criteria for from the DSM, which is the manual we use for mental health conditions for depression, it's very much, you know, a sadness, it's difficulty getting out of bed, it's changes in your appetite. And for a lot of moms that experience postpartum depression, there is some of those things, but there can also be a lot of irritability. There can be rage, there can be intrusive thoughts. It can be very functional. They could be doing all the things, taking care of their babies, doing the laundry, staying on top of everything, but just really struggling inside. So I think that it's hard to recognize mental health conditions in yourself or someone really close to you even if you're aware of what the textbook definition is. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, that's such a good point too. it brings to mind just the question, like a recommendation for other moms or just like a takeaway here as we pause is what I'm hearing you say is it might go unseen by even maybe the mom herself, but also like the people that are close to her because she's functioning. You know, she might be... she might be going through a return to work that's quicker than she imagined it would be, or it just doesn't feel like it's coming at the right time and she's showing up and performing well and her coworkers are thinking nothing of it, or she's, you know, getting the kids to school and off to work and her husband's thinking nothing of it. So just as we pause here, what might you suggest to the mother who's preparing for postpartum to... better educate her support group or her inner circle of what might happen or how they could check in with her. Emily Guarnotta: Yeah, I think to speak to something that you said earlier, I think that there's, we like to lump things into timelines and tell moms, know, the first three months, the fourth trimester is really hard, but then you'll start feeling like yourself again, or you'll start feeling like yourself again at six months or one year and the bar keeps getting pushed more and more out. But I think we need to really be real with moms and let them know. It's going to probably take a while, several months, sometimes even years for you to really feel like yourself again or feel like you have your bearings or, you know, maybe you'll never even feel like yourself again, but this new version of you. So I think in terms of educating our support systems, it's about letting them know like, hey, this is going to be a lot for me. I'm going to be going through a lot. You're going to be going through a lot. this is going to be messy and let's buckle up and prepare for the ride. Don't expect things to be normal. And I use normal in quotes, you know, after 12 weeks, it's just not, it's not feasible. And then if you can educate your support system on things that truly help you, because every person's different. So if you know, like I really struggle to ask for help. So explaining that to them, like I, you know, it really helped me if you check in with me specifically and offer specific forms of help rather than just general let me know if you need anything. know things like that like really try to reflect on what you personally need and let them know because you know they can't read your minds either and I think sometimes we like wish that our people closest to us just instinctively know knew what we needed but they don't so we really have to be vocal about that. Krislyn Powell: can you take us through the work transition after baby? And as you were dealing with postpartum depression, you know, we just talked about like how we might best have that conversation with our support people, but... Sometimes it's tough because as we're preparing, we're going through the nesting phase, we're shifting everything in our house, we're trying to make sure that our birth team is on board. We're just not living it yet. We're not postpartum. And so we can prepare the best that we can prepare. But I think it's like as we're really going through that, that's when it hits us, right? So what was it like for you? How was it? you know, in practical terms and then emotionally, what did that feel like to you and did you have the right support? Did they notice? What did you wish that looked like? Emily Guarnotta: think I'm a cautionary tale on what you should not do when it comes to taking leave after having a baby. It's the way I approach it is so different than I would encourage one of my clients or family or friends to approach it. So I went back to work. I had my own business at the time, part-time, and then I was working as a psychologist at a mental health clinic part-time. So essentially I two part-time jobs and I to work out in my private practice probably at around five weeks postpartum, despite not being mentally ready at all. I did ease into it, so I think a gradual transition, one takeaway that was helpful was to gradually ease into it, but I think five weeks postpartum, most women are not in a mental state where they're ready to even begin that process. And then I probably went back fully at about 12 weeks postpartum back to working full time. And in terms of my support system, I had a lot of support in the workplace at the clinic that I worked at. Their leadership were all parents themselves. I had really good relationships with them. And they invited me to share what it was like and share when I was struggling. And they were very flexible. when I... I kind of over committed to things. They gave me that space to over commit and then to come back and say, hey, I know I over committed and I know you told me that I probably was over committing and you were right. So now I need to scale back. And there were no, told you so it know, it was just, was, there was a lot of support. So I feel very fortunate. I know that's not everyone's experience, but one of my biggest struggles with going back to work was I have a very big people pleasing issue. I will put other people's needs before my own. 10 out of 10 times and that really reared his ugly head at that point in my life. So if I were to go back, I would approach that completely differently. But I think I felt really like I had to be there for my clients, for my colleagues. I needed, you know, for leadership, like I needed to show up despite not feeling ready. And I, in hindsight, I wish that I had been more in touch with that and been able to be okay. possibly disappointing some people. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, yeah. Something that I think many of our listeners are working through and struggling with and facing as well is that mentality that I need to show up. I need to follow up my commitments. I need to be trustworthy. I have to meet the demands like I normally would. and... sometimes that's not realistic and having those conversations. think it, what I heard too that you mentioned is that there were people at work that mentioned like, hey, you you might not feel comfortable taking this on. You might want less or you might need it to look differently after you return. And then it was, it's nice to hear that they first. kind of had those conversations with you, but second, that you felt comfortable revisiting that with them when you realized like, yeah, this is actually the case. Like I do need help or I do need to structure this differently to make sure that I'm supported. And, you know, all that to say I'm pulling like the good of what did happen, you know, the realizations along the way. But yeah, I just think so many of us struggle with that kind of perfectionism mentality of like, always meeting other people's needs before advocating for ourselves. So that's really just potent what you shared. So I just want to pause there. Also, I'm curious if it was in those early stages that you started thinking about your expertise and these pain points that were coming up for you. And if you had any thoughts as you were going along this process, like hey, maybe I should be helping other women or was it later on once the fog had lifted that you had that realization looking back? Like, I really wish that my experience was different. Emily Guarnotta: I think the thought definitely popped up. throughout the journey. One big pain point that I experienced was when I did finally admit that I was struggling and I wanted to get back into therapy. Finding a therapist to work with was really hard. You know, despite being Krislyn Powell: I'm. Emily Guarnotta: a psychologist, being connected in the mental health community, I, like most people, just went to psychology today to start searching. Didn't really know what I was searching for. This was prior to COVID, so telehealth really wasn't an option. and the thought of finding a provider that had hours available after I worked and commuting to the office and arranging child care for that time and all the things. And I didn't even know that I should be looking for a therapist that specifically was trained in perinatal mental health. It just... felt like I was looking for a unicorn that I couldn't find. And I Krislyn Powell: Thank you. Emily Guarnotta: had to try out a couple before I found the right fit for me, but that was a big pain point. And just calling around, not getting responses back, and it really made me feel for all the people that are in that position, that are calling, looking for someone like me, just at the bottom of their rope, and then to not get a call back or. you know, we don't take your insurance or all these things. So that pain point really stuck with me and that really made me feel like there has to be, you know, a better way, a more accessible way to meet parents where they're at. Krislyn Powell: I'm just flashing back to my first postpartum as well. I went back to work at six weeks, so just hearing you, like that five week mark and then the gradual buildup to 12 weeks, thinking like, I need a therapist. Where should I look? Looking for therapist. Like, you're not alone in that journey. You know, I lived it too with my first. And so many thoughts are coming up for me. Like, there's our listeners, I'm sure. not one, but many have also gone through this or are going through this. So yeah, just like a deep breath here and pausing to reflect on that journey that you had and realizing how foggy it was. Like not only was the postpartum fog there and you were going through it and caring for a newborn and trying to figure out all of the logistics of your home, but also returning to work and then suddenly realizing like, I need more support. What does that look like? And there's not necessarily steps of, okay, this is the type of mental health professional you should go to. This is why. Here are your resources all broken down, ABC for moms. so I wonder, something, you know, in me as we're having this conversation too is wondering, like, I think that might be half the battle is like accessibility wise, it's kind of tough to find. the right practitioner or to even know where to start. Just reiterating what you said. And so I wonder too if at that pain point, you feel like at any point you wanted to sort of give up on that or you're like, you know what, actually this is kind of confusing and I just don't have time for it, I'm fine. Was there any sort of like, was it a squiggly path for you? Emily Guarnotta: Yeah, it definitely was. I mean, from the time that I started reaching out to when I actually found someone, it was probably almost a year because there were, I would Krislyn Powell: Okay. Emily Guarnotta: get an appointment. I tried someone. They weren't, you know, it wasn't a good fit. And then I wait and then I try again and I not get phone calls back and I wait. So, yeah, it was it was an extensive pain point. And I just I really I mean, it's just awful when you're trying to you're struggling, you're trying to find and you finally get the motivation to look for it and then it's just nowhere to be found or it's unaffordable and inaccessible. Krislyn Powell: And a year, like thank you for sharing that because that timeline makes it more realistic for people who are going through it to understand like for you it took a year to find someone which in those moments as you're going through the process it's like hi I need someone now so Emily Guarnotta: Thanks. Krislyn Powell: that that is like just yeah again thank you for sharing that timeline is that's the the reality right now that we are facing and that many moms go through is like the time and the mental load of finding that right person that can actually guide them through this is sometimes feels insurmountable. So I just want to say like, wow, that is a long time, especially when you needed that person right away. So now you run Phoenix Health and it's an online practice supporting families across the US. So. You're not only impacting people that are in your area, but you are able to help moms across the country, families all over. What made you decide that this was important, that this was the right move, that you wanted to build your own practice rather than working within a system that was already built? Just walk us through that. Emily Guarnotta: think at the time when I started, the idea for Phoenix Health came, there was not much out there like it. There have since been some organizations that have popped up. I think a lot of people have realized that this is a big problem, but I was hearing from a lot of people that they were having trouble finding providers that was inaccessible, the cost was too high, they needed to use their insurance and couldn't afford out of pocket options. So I really saw the problem. and then with COVID and being able to access telehealth, I saw what a game changer that was for people that parents specifically could access therapy so much easier, not having to travel. I I used to have moms come to my office with the heavy infant carriers and they'd have the baby in the car seat, they'd be pulling out the car and I'd be like watching them and I'd want to run out and like help them get inside to my office. Like it's cold out, they bring the newborn out. how inaccessible that was back Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Emily Guarnotta: in 2018. And now that they can just hop on a call, it's so much easier. And I saw the attendance rates go up significantly because people weren't having to cancel as much. They were actually accessing their therapy more regularly. So they were seeing improvements faster. just like all of that kind of came together at the time. And I was already working in my solo practice So I just really saw the importance of like being able to kind of grow it I also didn't have other colleagues in the community to refer to that I knew were also trained in perinatal mental health So I was having a lot of people reach out needing services not being able to help them all as just one person and then not having anyone in the community to refer them to So it all kind of came together, you know during that Covid time that this was a good time to grow something like this Krislyn Powell: Yeah. I think that's amazing the way that you described it too. Like not only noticing the different needs that were coming up, like the moms that were showing up in the parking lot and carrying these heavy infants, like the carriers, right? The infants aren't always so heavy, but yeah, Emily Guarnotta: That's the easiest way to carry this thing. Krislyn Powell: the big car seat or the, you know, the strapping them to the, their bodies, like the... That's tough, then, so the attendance you mentioned and then like referring to other providers, just all of the things kind of came together. And I think it's nice to know too, just as we're having this conversation, like there's a lot of good that can come out of pain, right? Like these pain points that you notice within your own journey, you were able to then build a practice that helps other moms go through it and not be so, you know. not be so lost. then also COVID was a really sensitive time for many people. And that was also a time that a lot of things went remote. So I think that was another pain point that maybe turned into something good. So I'd also love to shift the conversation just a little bit to from a clinical perspective, like as you have been charting this business and seeing mothers, what are some, you know, common struggles that are coming up for these working mothers around mental health? If you can, I know you can't share anything specific to conversations, but just like overall themes. specifically for your business now. Like what do you cater to the most and how has this built over time as you've launched your business? Emily Guarnotta: I see a ton of burnout amongst mothers. I see that all the time. I see a lot of struggles around that return to work transition. And of course, the timeline for that looks a little bit different for different people. But it's really common we get people reaching out around that four to six months postpartum. And I always kind of like then put two and two together and realize that it's because they're either newly back to work or they're preparing for that transition and having a lot of anxiety about it. So those are those are some of the most common, you know, things that we see. Of course, we work with the full reproductive spectrum. So we work with a lot of other families as well. But I would say the burnout is is extremely common just kind of across across the board. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, yeah, 100%. I mean, even it, like I mentioned, I'm six months postpartum right now, but then there are different milestones as you're going through postpartum recovery and it's even like sometimes one to two years before you fully feel like yourself, but I think, yeah, that four to six month mark is tough too because there's different things going on in the household too of like baby sleep regressions that happen. we don't, I think, you know, There's, sleep deprivation is a very monumental thing that doesn't get talked about enough, I don't think, but there's a lot of changes and moms often taking the night shifts. And so not only is it like return to work, but just from like personal anecdote is like sleep. It's a huge thing too. And so yeah, that is so important is like there, I also wanna just mention that it is pretty common that like four to six month. mark returning to work and that's actually I mean, I know we're not here to talk about the improvements necessarily that have been made in the return to work. That's not this conversation that we're having, but it is a little bit of a relief to hear that that's the time that people are reaching out because that's showing that like, you know, not as many people are going back to work so quickly or hopefully not. Like I think there's been a shift in workplace culture or even a shift in mindset of realizing like it takes more time to recover. Not that, you know, any sort of anxiety or burnout is good, but at least we're seeing that a little bit later on. But I also want to ask, you know, there's a gap between... what workplaces say that they do to support and then what they actually do to support. So even though that timeline might be getting better of like, hey, you I've been in workplaces where I had to return at six weeks. I've also been in workplaces where there's been a six month leave and that timeline might be improving. Sometimes when we get back, the expectations are not in line with conversations that were had like, you will have a gradual return to work. Sometimes it's like, that's not the reality or there's still ongoing benefits that can support you. Maybe HR isn't great about walking parents through that and they feel lost. Let's have a little discussion around that. What are you seeing as far as workplace support maybe in what is said and what is done? Timelines, benefits, conversations, what's on your mind there? Emily Guarnotta: I think there are two totally different things, know, what's that and what's the reality. I was just writing about something today, talking about time reserved for pumping and how, you know, legally workplaces are required to provide moms with that space and that time reserved for pumping. But how sometimes there are these subtle or even not so subtle remarks or impressions that you might get that even though there's maybe a or your schedule is blocked out for that time, it might still be communicated that like we don't really respect that time. And I think Krislyn Powell: Mm-hmm. Emily Guarnotta: that happens a lot more than people talk about, you know, and not just related to pumping or lactation, but just across the board, you know, what, what, what's the culture when it comes to daycare calls, because your kid is sick and you have to go pick them up, you know, maybe you're allowed to, to go and there's no repercussions, but you know, if your boss, kind of gives you a side eye about it or you get kind of an impression or remark that they don't really like that, then maybe it's allowed on paper, but the social experience of it leaves you feeling like you did something wrong. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, I wonder too, it just seems like from my personal experience and others that we've had on the show that there is definitely a gap in the policies of the organization, what's on paper, and then how maybe management is trained in having those conversations or the support that's actually inactive, like just what is said and what is done. Like what we're seeing those differences and that pumping culture rings true, especially a lot of first time moms, like the feeding journey can be traumatic if they don't have the right support and it's tough those first few months with breastfeeding or whatever way they choose to feed their baby. That's a really crucial part of the return to work and I appreciate you bringing that up. I'm also curious. in your mind what makes or breaks that transition in the workplace of coming back. And maybe we lean into both what that could look like from a corporate perspective, but also since you've had the experience of having your own business and returning on your own time as well, or just managing the dynamics of what that looks like between work and life. Just share a little bit about both sides of like, what makes or breaks the ideal transition in a corporate format and then managing things on your own. Emily Guarnotta: I think in the corporate world, gradual transitions are much more optimal than just throwing someone back into the fire and having that flexibility, you know, whether that's having to adjust hours or if kid gets sick, you can work from home or, know, you just take the day and everyone supports that. I think that that's really important. think respecting the time for pumping and lactation makes a really big difference. checking in on parents, know, as leaders just knowing the signs that someone's struggling or experiencing burnout and checking in and not just, you know, the first week that they come back but throughout that, you know, really you should be checking in on our staff all the time but, you know, definitely throughout that first year as a new parent Krislyn Powell: Mm-hmm. Emily Guarnotta: and then in terms of the other side, I think personally You can't, you said this before, you can't really know what it's like until you're in it. So just being aware of that, your expectations, if you're someone who shoots high with your expectations, you know, just knowing that you don't yet know what it feels like and that your needs might change and kind of already giving yourself that grace if... what your expectations are, don't match what you need. You know, when baby comes being flexible with kind of rearranging that. Like that's where I wish that I had done a better job of, you know, I shot really high with like, this is what I'm going to go back to work and the hours I'm going to work and all the evenings and the weekends. And then having the baby and then realizing, Oh, that's a lot more than I can do right now. But not feeling like I could change what I had originally planned for or intended. And I think we have to allow ourselves to change the plans. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, allow ourselves to change the plans. Like give ourselves that permission slip, right? Like we don't know how it is until we're in it. Yeah, that's hitting really hard. I also want to ask you this question is just, we're seeing a shift in breadwinners as well too. There's more and more moms who are bringing in money or higher income for their families and supporting their families in that way. We've had a couple moms on the show who are doing that and they're stay-at-home dads now. You know, we're seeing a shift in gender roles. We actually have another mom coming on this season that is the breadwinner as well. And I do have a few friends who recently returned to work. you know, within the past year, and they were breadwinners prior to going on leave, and they're coming back and feeling really depleted and having these really high expectations of like, have to meet the income that I was at before. Some of them, you know, have their own businesses, some of them work in corporate, and I'm curious specifically what you might encourage them to maybe change or shift in the lens that they're looking through or any sort of tools that they can take away from this episode of like I know you said just permission to change you know that that dynamic and and that we can shift what we thought the idea of meeting the bar looked like or perfection but yeah what what might you tell them specifically Emily Guarnotta: this is a really important conversation to have that doesn't get talked about enough. I really relate to it because I've been primarily the breadwinner for most of my marriage and that plays a big part, a bigger part than we really talk about in return to work and the experience of working outside the home. It's a lot of pressure to carry on top of the pressure of just motherhood in general and working outside the home and then adding that like I have to, I have, you know, and things are so expensive in today's world. It's a lot of pressure. I think we need to normalize it more. So thank you for bringing it up. think women that feel that need to connect with other women that feel that and talk about it and know that they're not alone and they're supported and. It feels heavy because it's a lot. Not because you're failing or not good enough. It's because it's way more than any one person should carry. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, that's a really lovely way of answering that too. I just think about that. I have a very supportive partnership and I'm lucky to be able to advocate for myself and get what I need and I think that there are some women that maybe don't have that luxury or don't think that they can because the dynamics are different or, you know, and that... I think it's really empowering that we live in a day and age right now where we can be breadwinners and where we can chase after our dreams and build our businesses. And that's all lovely, but this is a very sensitive time that we go through after having a baby and our body and our minds, they're changing and repairing themselves. So we should be able to have the right support to navigate that too. and I would also just, I know we're coming to a close of this episode, but a few other takeaways from you I'd love to hear is one, shifting back generally to a listener that might be tuning in and they feel like they have their own mental health struggles and they do need that support, but maybe they haven't found it yet, or they're trying to go through that journey of finding the right provider, or maybe they don't. know that that's the right route yet, but they know that they're struggling. What might you say to them as they're listening to this episode? Emily Guarnotta: I would encourage them, know, if they're struggling but they're not really sure, maybe if they're ready to get help or ready to start that journey, just that you're never gonna feel 100 % ready and you can always try and if it doesn't work or it's not the right fit or whatever, you know, you're, you... you're fine to walk away too, you know, but there are so many different ways to get that support. So therapy is one option. Formal support groups are one option, know, joining a mom. Maybe does stroller walks together as another option. Like there are so many paths towards healing and you can do one of those or you can do multiple of those. You know, you can kind of craft your own plan. I see a lot of moms hesitate because of the fear of doing something new, like stepping out of their comfort zone. At least that's what I see is a big hesitation and that's totally understandable. scary to do anything for the first time. But I would just encourage you as someone who's you know been through it and has gotten to the other side. There's so much value and there's so much potential to feel better. you know, just looking to other moms who have been through it and are on the other side, just know like, you're not gonna feel like this forever. it just, it's helpful to use the resources, you know, that are out there and accessible and to figure out like what your specific plan looks like. You know, it might not be therapy for you. It might be something else and that's totally okay too. Krislyn Powell: As a first time mom, those groups, those meetups were really intimidating for me. Meeting other women that I didn't know as I was freshly postpartum, not feeling great, not looking great, all of those things, navigating a new baby. Second time, it's a lot easier to go to those things because I've done it before and I get it and I'm just like, I'm just gonna show up. Like, I'm just gonna be here because I know I need it and I know other moms need it and like, I already went through it once. Like, this is easier. So I think I just wanna throw in my two cents of I totally agree with you on this, that sometimes it feels hard because it is hard and it's like, though, trying those new things and looking for different ways of support. Sometimes we think like, I'm bad at this, but it's really just our first time doing it. So it's okay to feel like uncomfortable in certain situations, but it's important to try different things so that you find the right fit. Okay, so I also wanna know, where can we find you if... there's someone listening right now and they want to seek help and support and they want to reach out to your business. Tell us a little bit more about where we can find you, about the services that you offer, where should we direct our listeners? We'll leave it in the show notes as well, but share a little bit about that and what you've built. Emily Guarnotta: Our practice is called Phoenix Health and our website is just joinphoenixhealth.com and we offer individual therapy across the country in 42 states. you know, myself and all the providers on our team specialize in perinatal mental health and working with moms and families throughout their reproductive journeys. And we're, you know, always happy to help. And just to throw in another resource for listeners, Postpartum Support International is another great option if you're looking for support groups and they also have a directory of providers who are also specialized in this area. So I often encourage clients to check in with them too. And just your local mom groups too. I love that you're doing a stroller walk tomorrow. And I feel like so many more of those groups have popped up post COVID that it's so wonderful to see. I remember not even knowing that they existed back, you know, when I had my first and then I had my second during the height of COVID. So They definitely weren't happening then, but I love that there are more opportunities for connection happening and that you can kind of like piece together different resources Krislyn Powell: Okay, last question here. we always like to close these episodes with just what gives you hope for future working parents? So ending on a positive note, obviously the positive is like where we can find you, where we can find other resources, how we can seek out help, and I'm so grateful that you shared that and really appreciate that. But also, as we're moving forward, what gives you hope for other working parents? Emily Guarnotta: I think we're trending in the right direction. I mean, we still have obviously a lot of work to be done. And when you compare our country with other developed countries, there's still the gap is tremendous, enormous. But I think like you spoke to earlier, we're trending in the right direction and more people are talking about it, more resources are available. And I think we have to just keep up this fire that we have going. hopeful for my daughter's generation that when they're going through this they're going to have a very different experience they're going to have resources and mental health support that's accessible and affordable and workplaces that are flexible and accommodating and supportive and I think it's going to be a very different experience for the next generation so I'm very hopeful. Krislyn Powell: Yes, we're paving the way for a smoother path for the next generation. And thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation. It's so important. You are needed. Your business is needed. And I'm just so grateful that you were able to come on. It's personally important to me as well. And I'm so grateful for what you're doing. So thank you, Emily. It's been great to have you. Emily Guarnotta: Thank you for having me.