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Henna Pryor: Boldness Favors the Awkward · The Bold Lounge

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Lee Burgett and I will be your host.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact on the podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Every week they're someone who is technically or parts of an extraordinary course.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: In addition to hearing their stories, they also learn about their bold code mindset that they use to make things.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: But if they faced challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold goals.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be free.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have Hannah Pryor.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: She is a number one top producer and leader at a$2 billion staffing firm for over 14 years.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: She's been invited to speak to global organizations including Google, Workday, Johnson ⁇ Johnson, and JP Morgan Chase.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: You might have seen her in Forbes, Real Simple, or Fast Company.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: She's also an incurable chocolate and a 32nd generation Pakistani princess, which means absolutely nothing anymore and comes with zero perks, but it's still pretty cool.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Finally, which is I'm excited to talk about, she's a TEDx speaker with an upcoming talk and is publishing her first book, Awkward and Upward, in 2023.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Her immigrant parents are very, very proud.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so are we.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm so excited to be here, Hannah, and what an introduction.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think the first thing we can start off with, is there anything you'd add to that?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the fact that I'm relentlessly awkward at all times, but I'm proud of that fact.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that I'm just really excited that you asked me to do this.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, women and people in general being more bold in their lives and in their choices is a shared mission that I have with you.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited to be here and chat with you.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll jump right in.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: And we talked about this a little bit.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: How would you define bold?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: What does the definition look like in your world?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: So when I thought about this word, looking at the name of your podcast, what immediately came to mind was, you know, I spend a lot of time on Canva and typing, as I know you do too.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And when I thought about bold, I thought about when we write text and we make it bold.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a new font or a new typography.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's taking what's already there and leaning into it, making it bigger, making it more, making it just more noticeable, a little more grandiose, a little deeper, a little more noticeable, right?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: So when I think about bold, I think about taking what already exists and amping it up a couple of notches, whether that's our behavior, whether that's how we show up, whether that's how we approach a circumstance in the world, but you know, taking a little bit more of a chance, being a little more noticeable, being a little more seen.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I think of bold.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: It it really is amplifying what is already there.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the things I I say is that I think everyone has boldness within them.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: It just needs to be read, right?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's just in there.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I'm a living example of that.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was eking out along the way in different ways across my career and my life, but like it's full out, you know, there now being able to do what I do.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's an excellent definition.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things, and you, you know, and working in your industry and with your clients and the and the folks that you work with, one of the challenges is one people don't know they're bold or they're afraid to take that first step.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that first step is one of the absolute hardest steps.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you, me, anyone that's coaching someone or helping an organization, you can't make them.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: They can't, they have to do that.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think are the characteristics of organizations who are ready to be bold or ready to take that first step?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there is a step that too many of us skip.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that is peeling back the layers to figure out why it's hard in the first place.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I will give my own personal example.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think most people who meet me today or know me today would describe me as somebody who's bold, who's a risk taker, who doesn't come across as shy.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: But what people don't know about me is I grew up in a South Asian household.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: My dad was born in India, my mom was born in Pakistan, and while neither of them are shy, culturally, there was a strong don't stand out too too much, you know, stay humble, stay quiet in a room where other people are talking.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is not your place to speak up.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that again is no fault of my parents.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit of a cultural thing.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so there was a lot of deep-rooted conditioning around what can I say?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: What can I self-advocate for?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Am I allowed to speak my desire or amplify my voice in this room?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes when we, you know, we're encouraging people, be bolder in your organization, be bolder in your career, be bolder with your innovation, and they're struggling to do it.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder how much time has actually been spent peeling back some of those layers as to why is it hard to even access those feelings in the first place?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: And usually there's some level of conditioning that has to be addressed first.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was just thinking as you were talking about is there a connection between being awkward and being bold?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because I definitely feel awkward.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad you asked that question.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I was hoping that you would.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: There is no such thing.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: There are people who are awkward and try to hide it and eliminate it.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And there are people who are awkward in conversation, in their you know, situations, in their minds, and embrace the hell out of it.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: And those are the people that we call bold, risk takers, you know, confident.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: They don't try to eliminate it, they lean into it because they know that you can't get to bold without a little bit of fumble, stumble, imperfection, ungraceful behavior.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: There is no way to get there without going through the awkward first.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: You have to.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's realizing you're human and that it's okay to be human, it's okay to be nervous, it's okay to be imperfect.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just say it.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like too many people, I think, you know, one of the things as I was like going through a phase in my reboot of myself is, you know, perfectionism.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: And did I have it?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't, I didn't realize I had so much of it going on when I like went through the processes to understand kind of my personality and some of the things that I had done the majority of my corporate career.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: So realizing like imperfection actually is something that is beautiful.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like in my world, I think as I get older and age, like I'm not thinking about doing anything drastic.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'll, you know, but I actually think the wrinkles are good.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, when I smile, I have a a lot of them.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, but I think you know, to me, that means I got some mileage on my smile.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I've been smiling a lot.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, so I just think that imperfections lead to greater understanding, understanding and and valuing your experience, and also, like you said, leaning in.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about that for a second.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: So leaning in sometimes in a certain setting is easier said than done.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Anything you and I have talked about, and this silly example is the hat.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, I didn't really show pictures of me in a hat or doing anything.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a big deal.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need a badge or an award for wearing a hat.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: What I mean by that is like I couldn't actually be truly authentically me, one, because I thought I'd be judged, I thought I didn't look as good, or you know, who knows?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I have my own confidence issues every now and then with regard to that.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, but it was like now it's like, yeah, I wear my hat, and it's like a statement for me, like, okay, I'm I'm okay being me.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's that's a good thing.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: As people are trying to take steps into that, and you know, you might have experienced yourself.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's boldness in there as well.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: What would you advise people, kind of looking in that zone of like, am I in the right space and am I being truly authentically me?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have two angles that I would explore this from.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: One is I'm I'll just own, I'm not someone who naturally slows down easily.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: I run at a fast pace.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so one of my own growth edges is slowing my thoughts down long enough to understand why those feelings are coming up.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: So using your example, you know, being a little more authentic in your dress, you know, I just bought a, you talked about the hat.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: I just bought a pair of uh gold glitter Converse high tops that I hope to wear for speaking gigs.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't worn them yet, confession, because I'm still a little in my head about how that looks, right?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so first examination is slowing down those thoughts long enough to understand where they're coming from.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I have discovered is, you know, we talked about conditioning earlier.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: We have been conditioned for many, many years to fit in with social norms, you know, fit in whether it's with our organizations, the culture that they've created, or sort of set whether, you know, outwardly or just implicitly, everyone sort of dresses this way in the office or everyone shows up this way, you know, examining what are those social norms and then also just giving grace and space to it is natural for me to want to fit in with social norms.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is the whole tribal human thing that we all talk about in the professional and personal development industry.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you didn't fit in, you either exiled from the tribe or were at risk of death, right?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: So this is you get voted off the island.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Voted off the island, exactly.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: So understanding that that's where it's coming from, I think can release some of the power of it being so internal.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: There is such an external component to it.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: But then the second part of this, again, I feel like I'm using this word a lot today, but I think it's really important is a little bit of slow and intentional conditioning.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: So realistically, when we're talking about organizations, we can't promise that psychological safety is always there.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, will they appreciate if I wear this bold print that's culturally meaningful to me, or will they, you know, have something to say about it?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: If we don't know, then I'm a firm believer of you know, dipping a toe in the water.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: How can we test a little bit to make sure that this is an environment to bring my whole authentic self?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe instead of the you know sparkly sneakers, I'll start with some regular sneakers with my blazer, just see how that lands.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And 99% of the time, it's fine, right?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: 99% of the time it's fine.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: We as humans, we catastrophize why, you know, this is not gonna work or what this person is going to say.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think part of being bold in our behavior, and frankly, part of being awkward in our approach is understanding that what's on the other side of it is never as massive and huge as it is in our heads.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Most of the time it's not.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: But if we have that fear, we can always test the water and play with it a little bit and see where it starts to go into an edge of discomfort before we make that big bold step.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it has to be all or nothing.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I want to dig into fitting in.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm only a year and a half into being an entrepreneur, but I don't know like what to call the first part of my life.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I call it my corporate career.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta come up with a better name for it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: If I think about that, I knew how to fit in.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: I knew what to do.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a fairly smart person.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: I know when to say things, when to not say things, but I said the thing that I shouldn't say in the meeting.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: I made the point that no one else would say out loud and everyone was thinking.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: I stood up for things when they needed to be stood up for and no one was going to do it.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew the political fallout from it.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I could sleep at night.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: I knew that I was true to me from that perspective.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: But it's such an interesting, like, psychological experiment, I guess, being in the corporate world.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not dissing the corporate world either.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like I had a tremendous career and I'm very thankful for all my experiences, every single one of them, good, bad, and ugly.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I feel like I learned from all of them.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Easier to say that on the flip side of something while you're in it, but I'm I truly genuinely mean that.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: But when do you know when to fit in, or you know, like like you said, it's normal to want to?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Then I totally get that from the just like you said, the tribal human side of, you know, you want to be part of a group, you want to, you want to be welcomed, you want to be accepted.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you were talking about.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like talking about the when is it okay to stand out and be true to you?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's harder for people, certainly in some of the situations that they're in.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Can you think of a time in your career in your life that you took that bold moment where you didn't want to fit in, you wanted to stand out?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I'll be, you know, kind of transparent with you.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm experiencing a little bit of it right now.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a partnership that, you know, we speak on certain topics, and there is a part of me that's fighting back a little bit against one of the approaches that we take.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think that it's not nuanced enough.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's taking into consideration some women's issues, some marginalized groups issues.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm actually right now at a precipice of do I stand up for this?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, do I want to make waves?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody likes me right now.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm part of a community.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And do I want to make waves?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'll tell you the barometer for this, not to make it overly simplistic, is I have to be very brutal and honest with myself about what do you value more?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: What do you, you know, what are your values and what do you value more?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: So right now I have a values conflict going on between standing up for what I think is right and justice and equality and being a voice for that.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just, you know, confession, a value around being liked, you know, recovering people, please are here, still, you know, in that work and wanting to be part of community, wanting to be part of a group, wanting to be part of a team.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: I do have a value around achievement and recognition and likability.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Whether I like to say that out loud or not, that's just a fact.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: So these two values right now are intention.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I'm sitting with, frankly, as we speak, you know, today is that's a choice.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: I have to risk one for the other.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately, when every time I find myself at that choice point, I almost always find that the risk of losing, you know, the likability is never as high as I envision it in my head.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm not coming out, you know, guns blazing.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: You guys are idiots.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: You're not thinking about that.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Of course not.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's being done with respect, it's being done in a way that feels judicious.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have to have that conversation with myself.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in conflict, I have to make a choice, but also, henna, you know, get out of your own mind monster here.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: The reality is the risk will feel like a risk, but it's not as catastrophic as you probably are making it in your head.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: So when you make that choice, do it and know that you'll deal with it on the other side.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So values conflict.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: In my mind, I was vigiling, like, you know, when your car gets stuck in the mud and it's just kind of the tire spinning till you put something either to you get a push or you actually put something there to get the tire out of whatever it may be, the divot.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: But what I was visualizing was that once your mind, you get out of your mind, like you almost have to look at it from above sometimes.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the conflict, and here's where the value is higher, and I'm going for it.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then you realize, like you said, that it wasn't as high as you thought it was.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, I don't know anyone that's like, I don't want to be liked or I don't care about being liked.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I want to be liked too.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was some of the hardest times when I was in those moments that you just described.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think you described it so well.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't don't think I ever really define it specifically at as that, but it was like a moment of I know if I do this, I'm going to be unpopular.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know if I do this, I'm probably not going to get that promotion.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: I know if I do this, I may get fired.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, honestly, I was in those types of situations, but I knew what I was doing was right, was ethical, was moral, was for our patients or the safety or whatever it may be, at whatever situation it was, and it trumped it.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I I don't add that tactically, there's anchor phrases that I lean on when I want to be more bold, right?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: When I want to make that decision.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: So an example of something that I often say is, you know, and I say this sort of tongue in cheek, like I'm about to say something and it's really hard for me.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope you'll take it the way I intend it, right?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Or I hope you'll hear it the way that I hope that, you know, the way in my mind I hope you'll receive it.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm priming that I'm saying something, and I'm also priming that I'm bringing this to you because I care, not because I think you're an idiot, or not because I'm just trying to start a fight.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to give you a hard time.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to do anything other than have us be successful.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: But if I don't say this, you know, for me it would be going against who I am and my values.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the part you say to yourself.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I love that you're like, you can always intro what you need to do, kindness and professionalism and respect.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's that's so important.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then get it out, and it almost feels like a relief.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I love that you said that, you know, it is nerve-wracking.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: And part of, I think for me, the relationship between bold and awkward, you mentioned earlier, is there is a misconception about what it looks like to do something boldly for the people who do it.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: I a lot of the boldest conversations I've had, let me be clear, my heart was racing.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: My armpits were sweating.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I wanted to throw out right beforehand.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't mean that we do it clean.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that it's perfect.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I one of my little catchphrases lately has been do it awkward, you know, do it messy, but do it.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be pretty.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: And even the people, you look at them and you're like, oh, they nailed it.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: I just did a uh thing on stage the other day in front of a bunch of peers and they all were like, Oh, henna, you did great, you did great.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Did you see my hand shaking?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: They said, No.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: I said, My hand, I thought everybody must have been able to see it.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was trembling because it was new material for me.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't super comfortable with it.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I got a little nervous.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody saw it, but man, I felt it.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I was doing it awkward, doing it messy, but to them, I was doing it bold.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Same time.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's that vantage point, you know, how you see yourself sometimes is not how others see you, right?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that could be positive or negative.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like you you could be like, that was the best.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And someone be like, no, really, yeah, you know, you're inner circled, I can tell you that.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or more likely and more often, you think you didn't do well or that it didn't go like it should, you know, and I I experience honestly this daily, especially now doing the podcast.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not a pro, I've just begun, and I'm you know, I feel like I say that a lot.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'm just always starting new things, but it's like that goes back into, you know, you're actually most likely doing better than you think you are.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that you gave that as an example because it is very normal to be nervous or to have butterflies.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I always feel like if I don't have them, like, am I doing something I should be doing?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because I feel like that's actually the indicator of like I'm doing the right thing because it makes me a little nervous.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on a little, not an edge, but it's just like uncomfortable, right?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to honor exactly what you're doing.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, kudos to you for not waiting until you have the professional podcast studio and your ducks in a row.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that is what keeps people from being bold, right?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're like, I have something I said I want to say.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I can have conversations with people that would be exactly of the nature of what I'm trying to convey here.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just do it.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna do it awkward, we're gonna do it messy, but we're gonna get started.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what most people don't do because they're looking for the big bold step, right?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Bold, bold is this, bold is doing it.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or you can do it over.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the intro today, I will re-record because I like bumbled it, but it's like, okay, I can do that, and it's okay, and there's technology that helps me with that and those types of things.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I think even being able to know, like there are do-overs, you can, you know, and you don't have perfect coming out.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: I have heard that a lot.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: The reason for the podcast is just to be a catalyst for people meeting incredible people who have a story that most likely someone connects with, and it brings value or inspires, or it helps someone know they're not the only one that's felt that or experienced it.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I hope I help those that are sharing the story themselves to know that you're incredible, like you're an incredible person, like you are an incredible person, henna, for what you do and how you do it and what you talk about, and more people need to know you.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's my only intention.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's no revenue or anything like that, and I spend time marketing anyone that I actually talk with.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: So the point of that is like there's so many awesome people out there with bold stories and bold journeys.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's the intention is like connection between really awesome people and their journey with others, and that's to me what it's all about.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I get excited and I realize I don't have to be perfect at it because it really isn't about me or fumbling on some intro or outro.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I'd like to also tell people it's not as hard as you think.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that if you really think about, at least for me, the people who I admire most that I would describe as bold, you know, bold leaders, bold women, bold athletes, celebrities, you name it, the people I would describe as my most relatable, bold, you know, inspirations are the people who show me the messy middle.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to see your, you know, Wimbledon win without knowing what it took to get there.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to see that you're the CEO of a company that's huge and it looked flawless along the way.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to see that because then it's scary.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: It makes it scarier.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: It feels unattainable.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: I feel less then.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, show me the messy middle.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that in the spirit of this podcast, you're literally embodying it along the way, right?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the story, that's the journey.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And here we are actually living it while we talk about it.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things you said, and I've heard someone in, I think it was Jen Gottlip say, your mess is your message.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I mentioned this in another podcast, but I mention it again because I think it's exactly what you just hit upon.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's it makes you real, it makes it like she got to that point or did this, but it wasn't as smooth as you may think.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's someone that wrote a book, you know, be as happy as you are on social media.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes on social media and these other outlets, people portray like life is perfect.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And like, you know, there are no like ups or downs, it's just all ups.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think we're both here to tell everybody that's listening that there's both.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, you know, sometimes it's rough, and it may be even in the same day or the same hour that things happen.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd love to talk about the book.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: So as we kind of segue from the boldness and awkwardness, how did you get the idea for the book and how would you describe the book to the listeners?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the book will be out next year.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited about it.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: The working title is awkward and upward, but we'll see if it if we change it at all.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: I will tell you that the catalyst for the book was I know you and I are both fans of Brene Brown and other people that play in these spaces.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And she spoke a lot in the last decade about vulnerability and courage and shame.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And what I observed in a lot of the leaders I worked with was this jump to vulnerability that wasn't always authentic vulnerability because they heard it was important and they heard it was sexy to be vulnerable as a leader.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: So there was this kind of uptick of faux vulnerability, right?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm having a really hard day, team.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: All right, now back to work, right?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: This was this faux vulnerability.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so to me, there was a middle step or a subset that was missing, which is before you can be truly and authentically vulnerable as a leader, as a team member, as a friend, you need to first be willing to be awkward, you know, a little imperfect, a little ungraceful, a little stumbly, a little fumbly, a little, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm gonna do it anyway.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: You need to let that part of yourself show.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: You need to crack the shell of the egg a little bit and let that part show.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can get comfortable with that, then you will be well on your way to vulnerability, to courage and the rest.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: But it felt like there was too many people skipping over this really critical step.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so the book was born from this notion that the key to taking more risks and being more bold is not eliminating awkwardness, but rather embracing and conditioning for it instead.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the other thing that's important and most likely highlighting this, it's like it's on your time, right?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you said faux vulnerability because there's so much out there that it's sometimes hard to know what's real and what isn't.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as a new person who's opening up and like sharing my life with people who I don't know very well, it's hard.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not, it's not, it doesn't feel normal to me.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just say that.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be honest.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: I just a community that I'm hopefully helping and connecting.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like the helping and connecting, that's what I do.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, to get in the algorithm, you have to have a video or you have to do this or that.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the faux stuff I think comes in for me.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes to get out there and to be noticed or to be heard, you feel like you have to be a little bit inauthentic, I guess.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that you're like saying that you know, you embrace it, you lean into it, but when do you know don't go there or don't be that because it gets you a higher scene rate on, you know, impression rate on LinkedIn or something like that.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think we're in a little bit of an uptick of that on LinkedIn, especially, which is probably where your question is coming from.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems like you know, LinkedIn historically has been a business platform that has prioritized professional leaning posts.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And lately it seems as though the posts of people with selfies saying, I've been crying all morning and had a really hard day, seem to get favored by the algorithm, right?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it makes you wonder is this true vulnerability or true imperfection expressed, or is this a ploy for likes, right?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, ultimately that's gonna come down to who or what are you doing it for?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: So if if I'm posting up something on LinkedIn, then this is this isn't a conversation anybody else is gonna have for me.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: I have to have it with myself.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Am I sharing this because I know it's the type of post that will get attention, or am I sharing this because it's real to me and it's on my heart and I think somebody else will resonate with it.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: I will confess very uncomfortably right now that there have been times where I've started a post that I think I, you know, started it with like this would get this people would like this.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then I erased it because I was like, no, I'm not doing it for the right reason.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in my case, I went from 30,000 impressions a day to like maybe six now.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: But it's six thousand impressions to me that meant something.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's the way I'm looking at it now.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I tried to do the video thing and it did get me more impressions, but I'm like, it didn't feel right, you know.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: So transparently that's why I stopped doing it every day.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't mind every now and then.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I go back to like feeling awkward, being bold, but being authentic.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's probably like the third characteristic there that I think is important.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if you're awkward and bold and inauthentic.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's probably the most authentic you could probably be when you're in that in those states.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that's something just for people to understand that it's okay in a way, like not to be in that club or fit in because you want to be, you want more people to see your message, you want people to see you, but there's ways to do it other than social media.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a thought leader that that aren't on a social media platform, which are very advantageous.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I'm not saying those are not a good way to reach people, but I think sometimes they can maybe make people do things that they normally wouldn't have done.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're all just, you know, in the way trying to reach more people with our message or to support or help or share an experience.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think one of the greatest reframes for me has been, you know, Seth Godin talks about it.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember who originated it, but this idea of, you know, a thousand true fans, or you know, my friend Brittany Hodak refers to it as super fans.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: I recognize that in the last decade, two decades, we've kind of grown up in this likes community audience.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we're starting to see that shift now of people realizing that this doesn't actually translate to much, you know, to the marketers.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: They may say, oh, great, they have a big audience.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I would much rather have, you know, a hundred, we'll say 10 super fans who really believe in my message and will galvanize it and help other people feel more comfortable embracing their awkwardness or help other people feel more bold in their choices.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, those people ultimately are creating the ripple effect that I set out to create or want to see.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it is, it is daily work to say these numbers are vanity metrics.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: It does not mean that the message is spreading.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: It does not mean that it's working in a certain way.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's just one way of looking at it.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: But for people who are people pleasers or recovering people pleasers, it's hard.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's a daily reminder that this is how it needs to be done.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I wonder if there's a people pleaser in all of us, right?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so I think naturally there probably is.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like again, it goes back to like ability and wanting to fit in and wanting to be part of something.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so I just I wanted to point that out because I know a lot of people have talked about it, and certainly I'm experiencing and seeing it in my, you know, I love that vanity metrics.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not about that.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: If 6,000 people and that's still really good, look at it, that's great.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: If six people look at it, that's great too.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, it's not about the numbers, it's about one, your message, and then the meaning of the message, and then what it means to who's receiving it.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's the other thing we may not realize is our words, our actions, and how we communicate with people, no matter what the venue or the way that we do it, there's value there for someone.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we may underestimate that, right?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think we can all be comfortable in the knowing that all of us stumble and fumble and trip over our own two feet and occasionally say the wrong thing.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Even the most, you know, the Sarah Blakeleys and the Elon Musks and God knows who else, you know, the people we perceive as the boldest visionaries, thinkers, behave, you know, the behaviors are all seems like bold behavior after another.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: These people are all helplessly awkward on a daily basis and they own it, right?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: They just own it, and that's the difference.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have that shirt yet?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: You need to I think I need 20 shirts, but but I think that, you know, if if I could encourage anyone who's trying to chase bold and having a hard time accessing it, it's you know, the opposite of bold or the thing that will most quickly block your clear path to being more bold is trying to avoid the awkwardness on your way there.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, love that.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Want to talk just real quickly about something super exciting.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: The book, when does the book come out?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Summer, fall 2023 is when we're targeting right now.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: So we will make sure that the information below and the link that they can track that, go to your website and find it when it's out.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: Looking so forward to that.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: But you have an exciting thing coming up in the fall, which is your TEDx talk.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so many of us are cheering you on, so excited for you, looking forward to it.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to ask, because some of us will never even be able to experience because it's very hard to be a TEDx speaker or to be a TED talk speaker, and you're kind of in that elite group now.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: What have you learned the most from the experience about you?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's funny, it's been very top of mind, especially yesterday.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was spending some time thinking about this.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: I have done a good bit of speaking in my life.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was the MC of my high school prom fashion show, right?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: I was the commencement speaker of my grad school class.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, so my transition to keynote speaking was only surprising to me, right?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone who knew me was like, yeah, I know, we we knew this, right?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: We knew this was coming.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: But what has been surprising to me about the TEDx experience is that no matter how comfortable you get on stages in Zoom rooms with galvanizing your message, the minute you level up, all those same mind monsters come right back.
• 32:57
  unknown: Right.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I've I've spoken in front of now audiences of 800 to 1,000 people.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: This TEDx audience isn't going to have that many people in it, but I know that it's going to be a video that will be shareable.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so all of a sudden, those same doubts, those same fears, those same insecurities that I kind of thought I had shaken off pretty well have come running back in.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been a really healthy reminder to me that anytime you are playing at your growth edge, anytime you are pushing against the rings of that comfort zone, it's going to feel awkward all over again.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that is, while not something I'm enjoying, to be honest, exactly where I should be because it means I'm playing a bigger game.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm playing bolder than I've ever played before.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just have to keep reminding myself in this journey, you know, if this is what you want, if this is your goal, get messy, get awkward.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is what you're teaching, this is what you're talking about in the TEDx, and you're living it.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I will just confess that I think it took me a bit by surprise how much these things come back and into your brain waves and have to be addressed in real time.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: So being awkward can be cyclical, right?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just the vision of like your awkward cycle, like as you get to that growth edge that you talked about, it might come back in.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, whoa, I thought I tackled that.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I didn't feel like that.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I didn't, oh, there's a shadow I didn't realize was coming back into my head again.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then, but the cool part is you have the tools, you know the strategies, you know how to bootstrap yourself forward, right?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Versus the first time you might have experienced that awkward factor.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I truly think that the easiest way to think about awkwardness, and and obviously we'll get into this in the TEDx and in the book, but building your awkwardness muscle is indeed a muscle, you know, not dissimilar to physical fitness.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: If you, you know, are lifting weights on a regular basis and then you either never up the weight, then you kind of get used to it and it doesn't really feel like much anymore.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you don't touch that weight, you know, I go on vacation for two weeks, I haven't done anything.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Anybody who's done that knows that first one back is like, ooh, this sucks, right?
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Awkwardness is the same way.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: If you're in it, if you're conditioning for it, if you're putting yourself in these situations of, you know, deliberate microstressor, deliberate discomfort on a regular basis, it won't feel like such a shock to the system the next time something like this comes up.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: But similar to picking up a bigger weight than you've ever lifted before, a bigger, bolder move at your growth edge is going to feel more awkward.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's being a little bit conditioned for it when it comes, right?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's only terrifying if you've never been in that situation in any microdose before.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're slowly creating your life in a way that you're putting yourself in those situations, you can navigate these bigger ones more easily.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you adapt a bit, but that first one is probably the hardest one.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: Always.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then you realize you survive it and you realize through it.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in every single one, I don't know if you agree, you learn from it.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, where did that pop up from?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I didn't know I felt like that.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I am I so hard on my right?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the learning's in there.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I have I've really appreciated talking with you today, and I'm sure the listeners have have taken many, many pieces uh from this talk that they can apply.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you very much for being on the bold lounge, Hannah.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was fun.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Through the continuum of bold stories, vulnerability to taking the leap, you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others to share their journey of both with a bold man.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with the next one.