Latest / Crosswalk Talk: Celebrity Christian Interviews / Teaching Kids to Do It Afraid Is the Only Courage That Lasts | Montell & Kristin Jordan

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Teaching Kids to Do It Afraid Is the Only Courage That Lasts | Montell & Kristin Jordan · Crosswalk Talk: Celebrity Christian Interviews

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Life Audio.
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  Speaker 2: Hey, Kristen and Montel, thanks for joining me.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Pleasure to be here.
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  Speaker 2: Kristen and Montel Jordan, co-authors of Shiloh and the Not-So-Scary
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: Girl Above His Bed. I love that title. David Seabook
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  Speaker 2: is the publisher. September the 1st is the date for
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  Speaker 2: publication and release. It's so creative and fun and has
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  Speaker 2: such a wonderful, powerful message. Kristen and Montel, tell me
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  Speaker 2: the story behind this book. I know you guys have
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  Speaker 2: five children and I believe five grandchildren. Was it birthed
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  Speaker 2: out of those experiences?
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely. It was actually birthed out of our youngest son.
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  Speaker 1: We would put him to bed every night. And he
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  Speaker 1: was about three years old, a little closer to four,
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  Speaker 1: but three years old. And every night when we would
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  Speaker 1: put him to sleep, and it wouldn't happen until you
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  Speaker 1: go to put him to sleep, right? And then he
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  Speaker 1: would talk about the monster that lived under his bed
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  Speaker 1: and what if he came out and what if he
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  Speaker 1: grabbed his toe?
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  Speaker 2: And I was like, what?
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  Speaker 1: You have thought about this far too long.
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  Speaker 3: This is crazy.
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  Speaker 1: And so the Holy Spirit just gave me this answer
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  Speaker 1: of like, hey, what if a monster that lives under
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  Speaker 1: your bed is more afraid of you than you are
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  Speaker 1: of him? And it was like the lights went on
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  Speaker 1: in his head of like, wait, what? And I said, hey, buddy, listen.
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  Speaker 1: You're so much bigger than him. And what if all
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  Speaker 1: along he's been waiting so that he could be your friend?
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  Speaker 3: He was like, huh?
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  Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, he's way more afraid of
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  Speaker 1: you than you are of him. And it was like, okay,
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  Speaker 1: maybe we could be friends. It'll be fine. And I
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  Speaker 1: was like, okay, buddy, this is awesome. But it was
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  Speaker 1: a way to flip it upside down. And so the
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  Speaker 1: Lord just gave me this idea to write about that
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  Speaker 1: because he can't be the only kid that's afraid of
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  Speaker 1: the monster under his bed. And so we take this
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  Speaker 1: and flip fear on his side.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: And let me just say, my son at that age
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  Speaker 4: is a lot smarter than me because I would be asking,
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  Speaker 4: so you're confirming that there is a monster indeed living
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  Speaker 4: under my bed. No, but you're right, babe, that when
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  Speaker 4: it comes to what's in the dark, what was that sound?
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  Speaker 3: What's in the closet? Will I make friends? First day
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  Speaker 3: of school.
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  Speaker 4: These are all things that we now get to contribute
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  Speaker 4: to bring a resolve and an answer through Shiloh, like
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  Speaker 4: you said, who's this amazingly lovable character that you dreamt
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  Speaker 4: of for a while. And now we are able to
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  Speaker 4: give birth to him so that the world can help
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  Speaker 4: their children and grandchildren and church kids and school kids
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  Speaker 4: all over the world have an opportunity to conquer their fear.
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  Speaker 4: And Shiloh specifically is awesome because Shiloh isn't fearless. Shiloh
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  Speaker 4: is afraid, but Shiloh does it afraid because he learns
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  Speaker 4: and teaches the people around him how to take one
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  Speaker 4: brave step.
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  Speaker 3: Amen to that.
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  Speaker 2: And of course, like you said, Kristen, it flips the
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  Speaker 2: traditional monster under the bed story on its head. It
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  Speaker 2: kind of gives you something you didn't expect. I love
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  Speaker 2: that about the book. Specifically, this book is about overcoming fear,
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  Speaker 2: but overcoming fear through faith in God. Why is that
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  Speaker 2: so significant? Because you could have written this book. It's
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  Speaker 2: kind of a mainstream secular book. It could be placed
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  Speaker 2: in any doctor's office nationwide, but specifically it's about faith.
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  Speaker 2: Why is that so important to you guys?
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  Speaker 1: Because I think that is the epicenter of where we
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  Speaker 1: find the people that we minister now.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: So the interesting thing is, is if we don't deal
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  Speaker 1: with fear in a three to five year window, when
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  Speaker 1: you are years three to five, and you know, the
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  Speaker 1: interesting thing is, is that when kids say I'm afraid
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  Speaker 1: of the first thing out of a parent's mouth is
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  Speaker 1: you don't have to be afraid of that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: But the thing is, is it's very dismissive because the
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  Speaker 1: truth is, is that it doesn't mean it's not scary.
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  Speaker 1: It means in their three-year-old mind, that is scary. And
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  Speaker 1: so we have to give them the tools in order
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  Speaker 1: to understand, what do I do when I feel fearful?
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  Speaker 1: It's not that not feel afraid, it's what do I do?
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  Speaker 1: So if I invite God into that situation, it teaches
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  Speaker 1: me that Yes, this is fearful, but I can be
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  Speaker 1: brave because God made me brave. And so that is
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  Speaker 1: the idea that we have. And the truth is, is
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  Speaker 1: that we do marriage ministry. And when we sit across
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  Speaker 1: the parents who are afraid to stay, afraid to go,
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  Speaker 1: afraid to make a decision, afraid to commit. And what
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  Speaker 1: it is, is that they didn't learn in a very
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  Speaker 1: early stage how to not be afraid and to invite
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  Speaker 1: faith into those decisions themselves. So it can help them
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  Speaker 1: navigate their entire lives.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: I think manufactured courage is unsustainable.
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  Speaker 3: That's correct.
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  Speaker 4: Like you just, you can't humanly, you can try and
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  Speaker 4: produce the courage to do X, Y, and Z, but
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  Speaker 4: what happens when you have to do it again and
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  Speaker 4: again and again? And so I think that true courage
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  Speaker 4: and true bravery is something that's received as opposed to manufactured.
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  Speaker 4: And that's what we hope to instill in, you know,
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  Speaker 4: in the kids and not just in the kids, but
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  Speaker 4: in the parents as, And grandparents who have these kids
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  Speaker 4: that are now trying to help a kid navigate with fear.
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  Speaker 4: One thing I was talking about the other day is
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  Speaker 4: I'm now, I don't swim well at all. Like I've
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  Speaker 4: been fearful of water my entire life because of something
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  Speaker 4: that happened as a kid. I've been thrown into a
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  Speaker 4: pool and the whole idea of if you survive, then
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  Speaker 4: you'll learn how to, you know, that'll teach you how
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  Speaker 4: to swim. And so from that time and a couple
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  Speaker 4: other experiences, I don't swim. But now I am teaching
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  Speaker 4: my granddaughter, who's a little over one, one and a
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  Speaker 4: half now, I'm teaching her how to swim. And it's
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  Speaker 4: weird because as I'm teaching her, don't be afraid, lay back,
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  Speaker 4: you got to relax. As I'm teaching her, I'm actually
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  Speaker 4: teaching myself how to swim through her. And so I
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  Speaker 4: think what we're doing is we're providing an outlet for
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  Speaker 4: not only teaching kids to be fearless, meaning to be
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  Speaker 4: able to face their fear, but we're teaching the parents
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  Speaker 4: and the grandparents and the school, you know, Sunday school teachers,
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  Speaker 4: we're equipping them to conquer a fear in themselves that
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  Speaker 4: they didn't even know may have been there by giving
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  Speaker 4: it and passing the baton to the young people that
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  Speaker 4: this book.
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  Speaker 3: Is going to impact. Amen.
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  Speaker 2: I love reading to my kids. And I think you
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  Speaker 2: guys have discovered this as well in your own parenting
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  Speaker 2: that sometimes I learn as much as my kid is
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  Speaker 2: learning as I'm reading to them. Sometimes those are Bible stories,
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  Speaker 2: by the way. So especially when you get to the
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  Speaker 2: Old Testament and I'm reading to my kid, I'm like,
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  Speaker 2: this is in there? So I love how that works. Montel,
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  Speaker 2: you've experienced some enormous highs and lows in your career.
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  Speaker 2: Of course, people know you from your music, This Is
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  Speaker 2: How We Do It. You've had a number one song worldwide,
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  Speaker 2: and you've also recently battled prostate cancer. So how has,
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  Speaker 2: you spoke briefly about your fear of the water and
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  Speaker 2: fear of swimming, but how has your understanding of fear
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  Speaker 2: and trusting God in the midst of the fear changed
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  Speaker 2: through maybe your experience in battling cancer? Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Well, thank you for asking that. I mean, it's crazy
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  Speaker 4: that we are releasing a book that's navigating, you know,
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  Speaker 4: childhood fears when, you know, there's adult fears, too. You know,
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  Speaker 4: no one wants to hear those words. You know, it's cancer.
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  Speaker 4: And when you do hear them, you are faced with
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  Speaker 4: you've got a response that you have to come to
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  Speaker 4: a conclusion. You have to have something resolute that. allows
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  Speaker 4: you to be able to navigate what that journey was.
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  Speaker 4: And that's what I had to navigate. And so in
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  Speaker 4: hearing those words, I can tell you that it was
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  Speaker 4: immediately shock, of course, but something that was inside immediately
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  Speaker 4: when I heard it says, this is not going to
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  Speaker 4: kill me. So I mean, when he said, when the
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  Speaker 4: doctor said this, because I was taught and in ministry,
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  Speaker 4: I know that what you speak, what comes out of
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  Speaker 4: your mouth. I've known people that they hear they got
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  Speaker 4: a cancer diagnosis and three weeks later they're dead or
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  Speaker 4: they succumb to the disease. And immediately when I heard
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  Speaker 4: the words, hey, got good news and bad news. The
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  Speaker 4: bad news is it's cancer. And the good news is
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  Speaker 4: it's caught early enough. And so we have options. But
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  Speaker 4: the moment he said it's cancer, the thing that popped
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  Speaker 4: into my heart was I said, this is not going
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  Speaker 4: to kill me. It's not going to kill me. It
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  Speaker 4: didn't mean that I wasn't afraid. It didn't mean that
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  Speaker 4: I just charged that hill like all cancer.
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  Speaker 3: It was just literally in the face of fear, what
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  Speaker 3: do you do?
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  Speaker 4: And I think part of it is I trust that
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  Speaker 4: I'm not going to have to navigate cancer and God
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  Speaker 4: be apart from me to watch me navigate cancer. I
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  Speaker 4: believe I'm going to navigate cancer and God is going
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  Speaker 4: to be right there with me in the midst of cancer.
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  Speaker 3: And that's what happened.
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  Speaker 4: That's what happened the first time when I had surgery
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  Speaker 4: to have my prostate removed. And that's what happened the
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  Speaker 4: second time when cancer returned nine to 10 months later.
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  Speaker 4: And I had to have proton therapy treatments, which amounted
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  Speaker 4: to seven and a half weeks, 37 treatments of every
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  Speaker 4: single day, navigating, having radiation shot into my body and
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  Speaker 4: the entire way. I know God was there with me
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  Speaker 4: and I was afraid. And I did it afraid. And
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  Speaker 4: so there's a part of Shiloh, I think, that's in me.
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  Speaker 4: I think it's a part of Shiloh that's in Kristen,
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  Speaker 4: having a husband, navigating cancer two times. And how do
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  Speaker 4: you navigate wanting to keep your husband and keep him
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  Speaker 4: alive and keep him healthy and what's going to happen
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  Speaker 4: to the family and to take one brave step at
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  Speaker 4: a time. This is the journey we've been on to
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  Speaker 4: release the cliffhanger.
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  Speaker 3: Spoiler alert, I'm cancer-free.
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  Speaker 4: My prostate-specific antigen level is 0.01, which is known as
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  Speaker 4: undetectable or cancer-free. Undetected for life. Undetected for life. That's
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  Speaker 4: our belief that we're going to be undetected for life.
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  Speaker 4: But yeah, that is a part of the journey. And
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  Speaker 4: we made eating changes, dietary changes, workout changes. We did
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  Speaker 4: a lot of things to not medically only do what
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  Speaker 4: we're supposed to do, but holistically do what we're supposed
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  Speaker 4: to do. I fast and we fast together once a
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  Speaker 4: month for three to four days, sometimes five days to
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  Speaker 4: reset the body, ketosis, all those different things that, you know,
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  Speaker 4: medically and holistically, physically, we're doing everything that we need
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  Speaker 4: to do for God to be able to utilize me
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  Speaker 4: and utilize us to the greatest extent possible.
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  Speaker 3: To advance the kingdom. Absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: A couple of follow-up questions there. When was this cancer battle?
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  Speaker 2: How long ago?
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  Speaker 3: How many years?
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  Speaker 4: Diagnosed January of 2024. Surgery November of 2024 to have
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  Speaker 4: the prostate removed. declared pretty close to.
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  Speaker 1: Being cancer-free after that. They said cancer-free.
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  Speaker 4: August of 2025, that's when a recurrence or something hidden
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  Speaker 4: showed up. And then that's when we had the proton
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  Speaker 4: therapy in October and November of 2025.
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  Speaker 3: Christmas Day of 2025 declared undetectable and still undetectable.
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  Speaker 2: It's a good Christmas gift right there.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, my God.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, man.
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  Speaker 3: Praise the Lord.
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  Speaker 2: Our doctor was so kind.
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  Speaker 3: Dr.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Johnny, he actually took time away from his family to
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: call us on that day.
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  Speaker 3: On Christmas Day.
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  Speaker 1: To give us the greatest gift.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Amen. Somebody might ask about your fasting. What does that
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  Speaker 2: look like practically to you? You're drinking something, of course,
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  Speaker 2: but what are you fasting from?
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  Speaker 4: Normally, fasting for us is anything that's right around 72
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  Speaker 4: hours and it's just water.
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  Speaker 3: It's all water.
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  Speaker 4: So what it'll look like for me is I will
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  Speaker 4: start on a Sunday night. I'll eat meals or whatever,
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  Speaker 4: start tapering off. When I get to Sunday around midnight,
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  Speaker 4: 10 o'clock or midnight, my body comes underneath submission. Normally,
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  Speaker 4: our appetites dictate.
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  Speaker 3: How we move, where we go. What am I going
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  Speaker 3: to do for lunch tomorrow?
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  Speaker 4: It's crazy how much food dictates what we do.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
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  Speaker 1: When you fast, you realize... You can't do lunch, dinner, breakfast.
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  Speaker 1: But the thing is, is our flesh needs that submission.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: And it's not just intermittent fasting. It is literally a
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  Speaker 4: time of prayer, a time of devotion, hearing clear from God,
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  Speaker 4: allowing your body to cleanse itself. You're regenerating all new
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  Speaker 4: cells during that time period.
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  Speaker 3: Normally, you could go a day with water and It's
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  Speaker 3: a big deal.
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  Speaker 4: But after after 48 hours, that's when the body goes
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  Speaker 4: into a state of ketosis where literally it's now burning fat.
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  Speaker 4: By the time you get to 72 hours, your body
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  Speaker 4: has regenerated all new cells. So that's something that I
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  Speaker 4: highly recommend anybody that's navigating any type of of cancer.
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  Speaker 3: It is.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know the full context behind the
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  Speaker 4: research on data.
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  Speaker 1: But we had an incredible trainer. Coach, shout out to
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  Speaker 1: Coach Rochelle T.
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  Speaker 2: Parks.
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  Speaker 1: She taught us how to do this cleansing and like
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  Speaker 1: she did a pantry audit. They would have scared you
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  Speaker 1: to life. My kids were like, oh, my gosh, what's happening?
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  Speaker 1: I don't know what's happening. But all their all their
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  Speaker 1: little nasty snacks got thrown away.
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  Speaker 4: It's just things you think are healthy that aren't. It's
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  Speaker 4: really there's this sugar thing. There's so much sugar, man,
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  Speaker 4: in everything that we consume. Which being cancer, so that
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  Speaker 4: was the part.
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  Speaker 2: I think in a hundred years, our grandkids and our
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: great-grandkids are going to think we were crazy for some
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  Speaker 2: of the stuff that we ate. Let's briefly talk, Montel,
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  Speaker 2: about what you're doing now in your career and what
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  Speaker 2: you're doing with Kristen. Everybody knows you as the singer
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  Speaker 2: behind This Is How We Do It. I think you
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: turned 30 in the past year or so?
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  Speaker 3: Yes, 30.
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  Speaker 2: When you sing that song today, Are you the same
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  Speaker 2: person singing it or does it mean something completely different
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  Speaker 2: to you?
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  Speaker 4: I think it is someone completely different. And the way
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  Speaker 4: I've tried to explain it when I go out and
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  Speaker 4: I do sing the song is I say that what
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  Speaker 4: I'm able to do by singing this song 31 years
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  Speaker 4: later is I give people nostalgia. I believe that music
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  Speaker 4: is the soundtrack to our lives. Meaning when you have
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: a good memory in your life, there's probably a song
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  Speaker 4: attached to it. If you have a tragic moment in
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: your life, there's probably some music attached to it. And
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: what I do with my music is I give you
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  Speaker 4: time travel. I literally take you back through those highs
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  Speaker 4: and lows of a lifetime based on how my music
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  Speaker 4: impacted you at that time. And so in addition to
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  Speaker 4: giving you nostalgia, I also get to show you what
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  Speaker 4: it looks like when God gets a hold of a
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  Speaker 4: man's heart and then changes them. and then puts them
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  Speaker 4: right back out where people remember him, but they know
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  Speaker 4: that something is different, but they can't tell what that
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  Speaker 4: difference is. And then I'm able to share that it
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  Speaker 4: is the power of Christ that transformed my heart that, yeah,
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  Speaker 4: I'm singing a song, but it's a different man that
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  Speaker 4: God created in me that you're seeing sing the song.
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  Speaker 4: And so it feels different when I'm telling you, lift
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  Speaker 4: up your hands. I'm not telling you to lift up
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  Speaker 4: your hands for me anymore. I'm pointing to something different
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  Speaker 4: and you can feel it and know that that there's
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  Speaker 4: something different. So yeah, the song still is an inroads
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  Speaker 4: to the hearts of people, but it now has a
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  Speaker 4: different purpose that I get to allow people to see
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  Speaker 4: what God did in me and makes available to them.
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  Speaker 3: Amen to that.
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  Speaker 2: So you have quite a few, I guess, irons in
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  Speaker 2: the fire right now.
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  Speaker 3: You do that.
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  Speaker 2: And I believe, are you a worship pastor as well?
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  Speaker 2: I mean, are you I'm a worshiper.
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  Speaker 4: For a while, I was on staff at a church.
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  Speaker 4: I was a worship pastor. I was an executive pastor.
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  Speaker 4: And then we pastored a church for two years, a
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  Speaker 4: virtual church called Masterpiece Church, MPC. We did that for
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: two years. And then upon taking on the journey of
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: battling cancer, that was a place that we felt like
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: the Lord released us to be able to stay in
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: community and small group with those people who were attending
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: the church. But the place of that virtual space is
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  Speaker 4: no longer there. viable for us. But yes, so in
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: addition to us, we're still licensed and ordained pastor. We
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: now pastor the unpastored. So when I'm out on tour
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: and I'm out with other recording artists and musicians and entertainers, Hollywood,
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  Speaker 4: all types of people who may not have the ability
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: to get to a church on Sunday, that's where we
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: find ourselves ministering and ministering to lost people who enjoy
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: music and are unsuspecting in secular spaces that God will
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: show up to tell them that you know, that he
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: loves them and he's angry at them and he misses them.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: And now we get to do, we do marriage ministry together.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: We run a retreat center where we get to speak
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: to people who are in public spaces and allow them
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: a beautifully curated private place to heal.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: We help public marriages heal in private.
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: And in doing that, we also get the opportunity to
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: be authors now as well.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: So there's marriage ministry.
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: There's, we're still touring new music and, and now heading
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: into Christian authorship of trying to create content to counter
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: maybe some of the other messaging that's out there in
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: the world that we want to infuse a lovable character,
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: whether you're a Christian or not, that you can understand
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: that the strength that Shiloh gets is not from himself.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: And I think it's bigger than him.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Let me ask you one follow-up question as we land
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: the plane here. Were you guys both believers when you
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: were married or did your Or is the answer yes,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: but we grew in our faith as we enjoyed life together?
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: Now, this is funny. I was the saved one. I
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: was the heathen. I was flirting to convert.
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: And then I got saved.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: She got saved.
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: I found out I was in church, but I was
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: the heathen. I was always in church, but church wasn't
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: always in me. And so the journey early on with us, finally,
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: it really was she started chasing God.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: I was chasing her. God was chasing me.
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: Eventually, both of us started chasing after God and God
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: caught us both. And so we entered the industry and
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: the entertainment business, both chasing after God and not fully
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: knowing what that would look like. But along the 30-year journey,
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: we have found ourselves able to maintain and sustain a
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: marriage and to be together again. and to now be
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: influential to other marriages and people who want to know
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: how to get through three decades.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: And 30 years later, here we are.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: Amen.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: And I'm assuming that, you know, most artists and most
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: musicians would love to just have one single that, you know,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: lands on the billboard chart. But, you know, you have
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: this hit that has opened the door to so much
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: ministry in your life.
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: Is that correct?
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, you probably are able to minister to people
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: that you would have never been able to minister to
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: because of that just because of that one song.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: I would propose that it was the whole.
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: Reason yeah i would say that i would say that
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: god gave us that now he gave us other number
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: one songs we have we have lots of songs and
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: but that particular song is the calling card yeah that
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: immediately you know i think it was billboard says it's
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: one of the top 100 party anthems of the last century.
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: So in that space of time of the great songs
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: that are out there, we've just tried to make that
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: song to turn it from performance into having purpose, really,
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: to where the song is the entry point.
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: But ultimately.
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: If God doesn't get the glory from what we're doing
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: with it now, there's no reason for us to be there.
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: Amen to that.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: The book that we've been talking about is Shiloh and
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: the Not-So-Scary Girl Above His Bed. And the authors are
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Kristen and Montel Jordan.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Kristen and Montel, thanks so much. Thank you, man. We
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: appreciate you. Appreciate you.
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: If you enjoyed today's interview, please make sure to subscribe
• 20:33
  Speaker 5: and share the episode with a friend. A big thanks
• 20:35
  Speaker 5: to the team at Life Audio for their partnership with
• 20:38
  Speaker 5: us on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: will find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: See you next time.