Latest / Spiral Tending / How to begin your invest journey when you're self employed with Jackie Curry.
Transcript
- andie: And welcome to the Spiral Tending Podcast where we talk about business, money, creating lives that actually feel good to be in in this very challenging time that we are all living through. I'm Andy, I'm a therapist, business mentor, and the person behind spiral tending. This is a space for therapists, healers, and other helping professionals who are questioning the way we've been taught to do business. Recently I've just really been not convinced that seeing more clients, is the answer to building a sustainable business. around here, we're talking about money, relationships, creativity, community, and all the weird, messy, deeply human shit that comes up when we're trying to make a living doing the work that matters to us. we will figure out how to build business that supports our lives instead of like running it, you know, like that feeling when you're waking up and you're like, My business, my business, my business. We're trying to go to bed. And we're gonna do it without selling our souls to the goblins. I'm so done with the goblins, you guys. So wherever you are in the spiral, you're in the right place. Let's get into it. Today on the show, we have Jackie Curry, who is a financial coach here to teach us about investing for self-employed people. I'm so excited that she was able to join us. Let's tune in and hear what she has to say. Hi Jackie, welcome to the Spiral Tending Podcast. Why don't we just jump in with you telling people who you are and what kind of work you do? Jackie Curry: Yes, thank you for having me, Andy. My name is Jackie Curry, and I am really used to saying that I'm a therapist. I've been a therapist for almost fifteen years. And now I am transitioning into coaching, teaching people specific like more specifically women and healers, therapist coaches about money, how to grow and build wealth to create their work optional life. andie: Sounds incredible. why don't we backtrack? So for people who don't know, Jackie and I have done a podcasting series before. And we talked a lot about money, burnout, and kind of how we both ended up making our businesses larger and kind of moving away from one-to-one work. Before we jump into your awesome investing money work, can you just tell people what the fuck burned you out about the mental health field? Jackie Curry: I think there's too many things to name. the first thing was the COVID-19 pandemic and working in community mental health. I left community mental health in 2021 to go into private practice, which was great. I was living abroad, I had a really small caseload and was just living my best life. And then I came back to the US in 20 the end of 2024, realized I needed to make way more money. and started growing my business, my therapy business. And at that point was able to bill care Oregon out of network as an out of network provider. And business was going really well. I was serving a lot of folks on Oregon Health Plan. And then in what July of 2025, we got an email saying that was no longer going to be allowed and that slashed my business in half, which was devastating. And I know it impacted. Thousands of therapists across the state of Oregon. so that was one thing. And the next thing was trying to get contracted with an insurance company, which took more than a year. And it took ages to get paid by them. Money went to the wrong address. I had to fight. I spent hours on the phone. I spent months being unpaid for all the work I was doing. it was infuriating and exhausting and later I had a whole bunch of health problems and I am certain it was all associated to like the stress of the last year of trying to run a therapy business. andie: Yeah, it's It's okay, first of all, resonance. It is so hard to panel. And for people who aren't therapists who listen to this, I'm just gonna quickly give a sidebar. When we fill out an application to panel with an insurance company, they can deny us and quote unquote say they are full. Are they full? No. No, no, no, we know that because no one can ever find a practitioner in your insurance. However, if they choose to move forward with credentialing, contracting. It can take anywhere from three months to over a year and they they don't have to tell you about the process. So one day you just like get a contract and then in the contract they don't specifically say the rate. You actually have to go in and do math to figure it out. And they can't specifically tell you what your rate is. So there's a lot of things that I think probably are on the back end of why this was so hard for Jackie. And how did all these experiences like bring you to where you are now? Jackie Curry: So I started to become obsessed with money in 2021. And honestly, I was thinking about this yesterday. I was like, you know, I was always a really good saver. And I don't I don't know why that is. I don't know how I learned that skill. But even when I was making very little money, I always managed to save money. And in 2021, a friend forced me to open a Roth IRA. And at that point, I was like, okay, if I'm gonna have this account, I need to like learn how it works. And Just devoured all the information that I could about investing and have been investing pretty aggressively over the last five and a half years and started to see my money grow in ways that it could never grow, saving money. And that is what has brought me here today. I'm like, why the fuck did nobody ever teach me this? Like in high school, in college, in graduate school. None of my people around me know about this. All these people that I have in my life that are. small business owners, entrepreneurs, therapists, they don't they don't know this either. And so now I'm like determined for everyone to have access to this information. andie: What would you say is the biggest question you get from other self-employed people around investing? Jackie Curry: that is a good question. I don't even know that there's a question so much as like one of the things that I like to do when I'm working with people is show them how a compound interest calculator works. And I think that for people that can be one of the biggest aha moments. And the question of like I maybe similar to me, like why what why didn't I know this sooner? And how can I get started doing this? Especially as a small business owner and entrepreneur. We don't have access to employer sponsored accounts like four one K. So we have to figure out how to do this on our own. andie: If you were to sit down with me, and just so everyone knows, Jackie did do this with me. I have a Roth IRA because Jackie literally sat down and was like, do these steps and I'll do it with you. what would be the first step that you would start with someone? Jackie Curry: The first step, of course, my first step is I want to get stuff done. I want to open that Roth IRA and go through it with you. But what I'm coming to understand through some of the work that I've been doing as a coach is really getting to know someone's relationship with money. So understanding like what some of their early money memories are. how money was talked about growing up, what their relationship is with money today, what their beliefs really are about money. That is step one, because we need to know where we came from and why we're here before we can move forward. andie: What would you say is one of the bigger themes that emerge from people entangling from money stories to even be able to open a Roth IRA? Jackie Curry: I think, just like I'm running a cohort right now, the confident investor lab, where we are it is a four-week series teaching women how to open these types of accounts. And one of the themes that has come up repeatedly is that all these women are in this program and they've never been able to talk about money before. They come from families where money was taboo, they couldn't talk about it, they couldn't ask questions. And I think it is so interesting that it's like regardless of your financial situation, money is a major stressor. So I have one person saying, I actually have an inheritance, but I don't want anybody to know because I'm really ashamed that I I was just given this money. And then you have people who are saying I have no money and I'm really ashamed because I don't have any money. So it's like the shame is there no matter how much or how little money we have in our possession. andie: 100% And one thing that I think that you're saying is there's shame no matter how we do it. And for me, and you tell me what comes up for you when I say this, but I find it so interesting that there's shame. we're like, I have ten dollars extra this month. my gosh, let me put it in something. But like these men are running around, literally running around and betting on us through the government and then investing that money. And I am always so fascinated when people feel shame when what I'm hearing from them is like, how can I save money so when I can't work, I can afford groceries and mortgage rent, whatever it is. But also, how can I have money so I can help shape shift this world and not be greedy, quote unquote. But but sometimes I notice we go to this place of greedy for just needing basic needs. Do you see something similar? Jackie Curry: Yes. Like I had a lot of thoughts as you were saying all of that stuff out loud. But yeah, it is mind-boggling. I think as healers, coaches, therapists, it is like ingrained into us very early on, like our bachelor's degrees or master's degrees, that we're not in this work for the money. Wanting money is bad and evil, and that we are doing this work to help. people. And I've also found a lot of us come, you know, there's the the other money stories intertwined, like whether you grew up like in a religious household where money is the root of all evil. we just is messages throughout our entire lives that wanting money is bad and it's evil. I keep thinking about the book We Should All Be Millionaires by Rachel Rogers. it's written specifically like for women and talks a lot about how we're given all these messages when really us having access to money to financial resources and not like this not a s like a plethora of it really gives us options, freedom, choices. the ability to be better in society, the ability to actually like give more of our time and our energy because we have access to like our basic needs being met, or like being able to pay people livable wages, being able to donate to the causes that we believe in, being able to put our money towards like politicians that are gonna actually like do the right thing for us. andie: Yeah, yes. Jackie Curry: yeah. andie: And I think so, okay, so many different thoughts came up. A, I always kind of go to D V because the work and my training and all the things, but I I imagine some of this is also when we are resourced and we're not having to be dependent on a relationship of any kind, Like Being able to have full autonomy and choice is what I think can guide these questions of where do I want to get my time? What do I want to build? Who am I? How can I, you know? A if you want to start a business, how can you pay someone at least 150K a year? Because we know that's actually the basic livable needs right now. So all these things that you're saying make so much sense. And how do you see people who invest start to untangle from some of this? Jackie Curry: How do they entangle from some of the the beliefs? andie: Yes. Jackie Curry: Yeah, I think we entangle by having some of these conversations. this is we're doing some internal reflection. We're gaining an understanding of our story and why we believe the things that we believe. I think we entangle this also ties into my like burnout with therapy and all the individual one-on-one work. Like what I'm trying to do is bring people together to have these conversations. Together in community where they can normalize and validate one another and learn and grow together. We cannot do this shit by ourselves. Like we are not meant to be we're just not meant to be doing things on our own. We are meant to be growing and learning in the community. So doing it that way. And then I think too, you know, with investing, I haven't touched on this yet, but there is a lot of fear. around investing. A lot one of the questions that people will bring up is is this risky? Is it dangerous? I don't want to lose all my money. And those are very fair, valid concerns and realities. And I think that one way to untangle that A is to gain some like education, the literacy, financial literacy education piece. And also to start investing to like you're doing the hands-on to see the growth and the rewards and the potential and the opportunity. And we eventually learn that not investing is actually more risky than investing. andie: Absolutely. So once someone sets up a Roth IRA, what else do you recommend? Like what's next? Jackie Curry: What's after a Roth IRA? So step one is definitely like the very first step is we want to have some emergency savings and a high-yield savings account. Step two, we want to have a Roth IRA. Ideally, we max it out every year. The maximum contribution for 2026 is $7,500. The most important thing that people often forget is you have the Roth IRA, you put the money in, but you have to make sure that you are investing that money into. Index funds, mutual funds, exchange traded funds, whatever the actual investment is. Once we've maxed that account out and we want to continue to invest, there are other accounts that can be open. So if you're a solopreneur, an entrepreneur, a small business owner, some retirement accounts that you can open are a solo 401k or a SEP IRA. Those are tax-advantaged retirement accounts that you open. They link to your business and so you get to put money in through your business and can allow you to to grow more money. So you can set yourself up for a work optional life down the road. andie: How have you been able to leave therapy and start this other business? Like what did you do? Walk me through it. Jackie Curry: man, there's a couple things. So I have, like I said, I have been investing since 2021 and I do have money set aside in a Roth IRA and a solo 401k and a brokerage account. And a brokerage account is money that I can touch at any time. There's no limits to when I can touch it. I've been very fortunate, I haven't needed to touch it yet. And the goal is to never touch it. Because in addition, I've had I have an emergency savings account. And as a small business owner, it's been very important for me to have six months of emergency savings. So I've tapped into the savings. I also have a very supportive partner who has been supportive both like emotionally and financially. So that is how I've been able to make this pivot. andie: You just said something so important. You said savings. How do you coach people on learning how to save money? Jackie Curry: So, like I said before, I was like trying to think back on how in the world did I know to save money? And I think part of it, understanding my own money story growing up with a lot of money stress with a single parent, it just has I guess I've always had like sort of a scarcity mindset around money. So knowing that I had to save for emergencies. And when I talk to people About saving. this is true for both saving and investing. The best thing to do is just set things up, automate everything. Automate your savings, automate your Roth IRA contributions because we don't even think about it. We don't think twice. It just happens. And it's just like we automate all these other payments. We automate Netflix. We automate Spotify. We automate our car payments, our insurance. if you automate it. It's just part of the bill that's automatically being paid, but it's for your future. andie: What about people who kind of fall into that self-employment trap, paying yourself as the money comes in versus on a set day or monthly? Like, how did you start to set up your self-employment to be able to do these things? Jackie Curry: So as a self-employed person in this last couple years, I've become my business is set up as an S core. So that means I get two paychecks a month as I'm a W-2 employee in my business. So I know that I get those two paychecks and from there can set things up automatically. So I could set up automatic contributions to my solo 401k once a month. And then if there was like extra money, I could contribute more. And with savings, because I had already funded my savings, I haven't had to worry about it because it was just it's been funded for a while. andie: If it's just something intuitive to you, that is a badass, incredible. And say someone, which I know so many listeners, we don't talk about this because of shame. For people who are really disorganized with money, pay themselves when they get paid, mess around with business to checking, bopity boop, beep, beep. How would you recommend starting a structure to be able to automate to? then be able to invest. take us back to the first step that you would do. Jackie Curry: Yeah, step one is opening the account. So I said, I think I would always it's tricky because I can't quite I would always recommend encourage someone to think about the Roth IRA first if they qualify for the Roth IRA. Step one, you go to Vanguard or Fidelity or Charles Schwab and you open an account and you choose a Roth IRA. And they will what it walks you through the steps. Connect to my bank account. And then you connect it to the bank account and you set up automatic contributions. With the Roth IRA, those those contributions, the money that's going into this account is coming from your own personal checking or savings account. As opposed to a solo 401k or a CEP IRA, those are business specific retirement accounts. And those need those can also be set up with Fidelity, with Charles Schwab, with Vanguard. And just like you open the Roth IRA and connect connect it to your bank account for automatic contributions, you're going to connect it to your business checking account for automatic contributions. andie: as you're saying this, I'm just curious when you're working with self-employed people, do they know that you can get a business retirement? Jackie Curry: A lot no, a lot of people don't. And in fact, I didn't even know. I I did not know this information until 2024. And my CPA very strongly encouraged me to open that solo 401k to reduce my taxable income. So these retirement accounts, like they reduce your taxable income. You can stop giving your tax money to our higher beings and you can give it. andie: The goblins. Jackie Curry: the goblins, you can give it to your future self. Instead andie: So, just a sidebar, I'm just gonna take a second and let you know gonna do a live case study coaching someone on untangling money stories so that this person can start to imagine investing and setting up these processes. And then Jackie is gonna do a badass workshop on investing, answering your questions, letting you know choices. I would love to see you. There, please again check out the show notes. you have learned so much about investing. What is it like Learning about investing right now in this moment of time that we are in. Jackie Curry: I think it's actually it's been incredibly empowering. It's been exciting. It's been again, you know, I oscillate between feeling really, really angry that nobody taught me any of this information sooner. And also going back to this like flip side, like would I have even paid attention if somebody did try to teach me sooner? I I mean I don't know because I didn't have the opportunity. but now I'm there's like such a I'm in such a position of just this excitement. And I used to think like this is how I used to feel this way about therapy. I was like, therapy is like it's everything and the way that I looked at the world was through my like trauma informed lens and relationships, and I still, you know, have a lot of that, but I also have realized everything is actually about money and capitalism and businesses and our government will always put businesses ahead of anything and anybody else. And that is why investing matters and is important because it is the only way, it is the only way to like keep caught up with inflation, to get ahead, to build wealth. And one of the things I did not touch on earlier, but I have to just touch on it. For those who do not want to invest, who find investing risky. I just I need you to know that your money, whether or not you consent to this, is being invested. Your money that's sitting in a savings account, in a checking account, in any insurance policy, it's all invested. You are just not getting any of the benefit of it. andie: Thank you for saying that. One of my questions is how can we invest ethically? Which I Jackie Curry: Yeah. andie: actually don't think that we can. Our world is disgusting. Jackie, you might have something else to say, but I think everything that we touch is already being invested. And I Jackie Curry: Mm-hmm. andie: personally think right now, given the resources that we have, it is okay to set yourself up. For stability, that is very Jackie Curry: Yes. andie: different than you saying, I'm intentionally gonna go make war weapons and then invest that, because you are not saying that. But the microphone, this computer, our cell phones, everything that we touch is part of what's happening already. What tell me more about that, Jackie. Jackie Curry: So there are, you do have some options. There are ESG funds, their environmental, social, global index or or exchange traded funds that you can invest in. And theoretically, they're supposed to house more ethical companies. The downside to this is, well, there are two. One is that if you actually look closely at the companies in the ESG funds, they often aren't that ethical. So you really need to look closely. Sometimes you'll see like Shell in the ESG fund and you're like, how what? How? So look very closely. The other downside is these funds might cost a little bit more money to own. And the the reward is like you're not paid out quite as much. So you're like spending more, you're not making as much or earning as much in the returns. So th those those are the downsides. And what What I choose to do personally, this is all a personal thing. I'm choosing to invest in the markets that are performing well, knowing that I can take the money, like I will have a higher reward, and I can use that money I donate to organizations and causes that I believe in. And that is how choose to make sense of it. andie: something that I keep thinking about is when I have money, the first thing I do is A, I pay my bills. The second thing I do is I go, let me put some of my little tiny Roth IRA that's not gonna be so tiny for much longer, I'll tell you that. And then the Jackie Curry: Yeah. andie: third thing I do is, what person in my life needs a little treat? Like I keep thinking about when my debt is paid off, like whose whose rent am I paying for a year? Like who Jackie Curry: Mm-hmm. andie: in my life needs a car? What person on the street needs a thousand dollars? Like, how can we start to use this money in ways that actually directly goes back into our communities? And is that, you know, I I I think that's very powerful. yeah. Jackie Curry: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it's it's exactly like you taking the money and putting it towards things that are important to you, people that you value, and and so forth. So it it really it is kind of like this finding the balance and what feels okay and what makes the most sense for you. And at the end of the day. Us investing into companies that we don't love or believe in means we just don't shop there. Don't shop at that company. Do not buy from the companies that are causing harm or that we we don't believe in, because then those companies will no longer be in the top performing index funds. They'll get booted out andie: Yes. Jackie Curry: and then we're investing in the other companies that are performing better. andie: Yes. If you could go back in time. What is the biggest lesson that you've been learning about investing money? what would you tell your younger self right now? Jackie Curry: my gosh, it if I could go back to the age of 18 years old, I would have opened a Roth IRA at 18. I would have put all my, not all, I would have put a percentage of my earnings from summer jobs. God, I probably wouldn't have gone to college because I'm gonna be paying that debt back forever. But for sure, the Roth IRA is what I would have started with. If you started contributing to a Roth IRA at eighteen, two hundred bucks a month, you could be a millionaire in no time. andie: Yeah, can you give us a basic breakdown of you have a calculator that you created? Is that true? Jackie Curry: Mm-hmm. I have a a freedom calculator. So yes, it helps you determine like how old you are now, what age you want to be work optional, how much time between now and then, how much do you have invested today, how much will you need in retirement, and how much do you need to like contribute to get to that ultimate number. andie: Okay, let's put in my stats, can we? Jackie Curry: Okay, yeah. andie: Say I wanna work till 65 and there's no generational wealth, little saved, what then? Jackie Curry: Yeah. So if we were to this calculator saying you're thirty-five, sixty-five is the age of retirement or work optional life, so that's gives you thirty years, then we're looking at closer to investing one thousand one hundred and five dollars per month, which I think is doable. It's doable for folks. Yeah. andie: Absolutely. And something I've been really sitting with is what do I find is a necessity for me? And how have I learned that? So, like, when you said that, I'm like, yeah, of course, that makes sense. what questions do you guide people in trying to really sit with how they spend their money and why? And what they find important about their self in this. Jackie Curry: I am thinking back to a workshop I hosted a couple weeks ago when somebody asked, like, how do you find balance between like enjoying your life today and putting money aside for the future? Which is a really good question. And I think there are some people again. I have one person I know who lost her parents who were both who d didn't make it to fifty. And her motto is yellow and I'm gonna just spend the money that I have because I don't know there's no guarantee, right? And I have people like me who I'm like, I I gotta put all the money in investment accounts because I wanna be work optional as soon as possible. But there is I think there is a balance and it really is I d part of it is identifying what your values are. You don't want to come from a place of depriving yourself from doing the things that you enjoy, allowing yourself to spend time with your loved ones. But I do think that there can be some conversation. Like I really spend time with people who just like me, we feel like going out to eat is a waste of money. And when we're gonna spend time together, we're gonna cook. together or potlet style together because A it's much more economically friendly and we get better food than going out to eat. andie: Absolutely. Jackie Curry: I think it is super tough because we live in a like today, things are really fucking expensive. And it's like, do I take that dance class or do I put that money into my IRA? I and it really is just like I think if we really sat down and looked at our expenses and our subscriptions. If we really paid close attention, I do believe that there's opportunity to move some adjust things. I recently canceled my Netflix subscription a couple months ago and I'm like it's only 20 bucks, but that's 20 bucks that I can it doesn't bring me val there's no value that it brings me other than wasting my time and rotting my brain. And I would be rather I would rather be using my time and energy to create and build something and put that twenty dollars towards something else that I value more. andie: Absolutely. I will also say that geographical location is part of this. when I was living on the Jackie Curry: Yes, yes. andie: West Coast, I felt every single day I was like, I am gonna go bankrupt here. Jackie Curry: Mm-hmm. andie: no matter how much I was working, no matter how well I was doing in my private practice. I was like, I am drowning now living in southern Vermont more rurally, which I realize is not for everyone for so many different very logistical reasons. events do not cost as much. And I think that there's something about like depriving yourself, community. It's like how we live geographically is also part of how people cultivate community. And you know, if you're in a A place like Portland or Eugene, where people tend to really want to go out, which is fun, and I'm with you all. I want to go out too. What are some tips of just asking your friends to save some money with you and hang out with you? Like, how would you ask someone to think about that? Jackie Curry: I will say again, because I historically made very, very little money and my friends just knew me as like the frugal friend, the frugal social worker who always said, like, I don't have any fucking money to go out to eat. And now I've shifted to like I want to hang out with you, but I don't want to go spend $50 on a meal. So here are some options. We can go on a walk together. I'm happy to have you over and make dinner for you. I know this is different for everybody because it is such it is such a taboo thing. We don't fucking talk about money, even though we need to be talking about it, because I know that everyone is struggling. Not everyone is struggling, but that there I think more people struggle with money and stress about money than we talk about. So for me personally, I just name it. I say it out loud, and my friends are gonna stick with me. And those who are not my friends can judge me. That's fine. Yeah, just naming andie: Yeah. Jackie Curry: it. andie: Just naming it. And it's because it's so hush hush, think it can lead people into this place of making choices. That aren't always rooted in the person's future self. And that's okay. I have also made those choices. I make those choices, So I think that there's also this place of finding what your middle ground is and how you want to be with your money. Jackie Curry: Mm-hmm. andie: And My last question for you as we round this out, and can you just tell people when they work with you in these workshops what they can anticipate and just start them from the beginning to end? Jackie Curry: Yeah. So what I've been I I'm offering a couple of different ways that folks can work with me. Right now I'm in the midst of my four-week confident investor lab. We're halfway in. And what folks can anticipate with me, like in that setting, it's 90 minute interactive workshop where there are there's information and education, there are breakouts so that folks can Have a conversation with one another. I created a 65-page workbook because I'm so obsessed with this topic. So the workbook comes with all the information, and folks can be working through that as they're learning the material. There is opportunity for real life. Like if you get your Roth IRA open before our next workshop, then we can look at it together and do some hands-on. support around choosing an index fund to purchase. I also do one-on-one coaching and that is that gets to be of course a little bit more personalized and individualized where people can tell me a little bit about their situation, what they're hoping to get out of our work together. There's opportunity for people to share their screen with me, to figure out how to click through the things. one of the biggest things that I see is people have investment accounts and there's money in the account, but it's not invested. So we'll we'll get to sit together and figure out how to get that money invested. and I have a new program that will be I'll be launching in January, a six-month program because I've realized that four weeks just isn't enough time to really work through the things that people want to work through. We just really need more time. So we'll get to have more information and education as well as implementation sessions where we'll meet and do the work together. andie: And tell us just at the end a little bit like what are you hoping people get from our free workshop that we are hosting in November? Jackie Curry: Yeah, so we are hosting a free workshop November 8th. And I think that folks are gonna get a couple of different things. One that they're going to get is definitely some conversation around untangling some like beliefs around their money mindset, especially as business owners. And the other hope is that they walk away understanding. That there are accounts out there that exist where you can grow your money. I think we've all been taught about savings accounts, but we've never been taught about investment accounts. And I really want people to see what the difference is between saving $10,000 and investing $10,000. andie: Yes, absolutely. And this is really, really off track, but can you just tell people about how you travel all the time? Like, what Jackie Curry: yeah. andie: hacks can they walk away with? Jackie Curry: Okay, travel hacking is a whole it's gonna be a whole separate workshop, which actually I'm hop my plan is to host one in December because I've had lots of demand for it. But I am obsessed with opening new credit cards, getting sign-on bonuses, paying credit cards off responsibly, never carrying a balance because credit cards will rob you, and using those points to travel the world for free or close to free. Lots of secrets in there. andie: Lots of secrets. So if you are curious about how to manage your money, build a relationship with money, we hope to see you at this workshop November 8th at 9 Jackie Curry: Nine AM andie: a.m. Pacific time. thank you again, Jackie, for coming. And you all can reach out to Jackie on what platforms? Jackie Curry: You can find me on Instagram at financial.literacy dot lab. That's the best way, as my website is under construction. andie: You got it. Okay. Thank you again. Bye, Jackie. Jackie Curry: Thanks for having me.