Latest / HFL Education / The HFL Education Business Services Podcast - Why are there so many juxtapositions in education?

Transcript

The HFL Education Business Services Podcast - Why are there so many juxtapositions in education? · HFL Education

• 0:03
  Hello and welcome to the HFL Education Business Services podcast.
• 0:06
  I'm Catherine Loake the director of business services here at HFL Education We wanted to bring you this series of mini podcasts, because we recognise that the role of school leadership is growing ever wider, ever deeper, and it's increasingly challenging for school leaders to get under the bonnet and unpack all elements of school leadership.
• 0:22
  So today I'm joined by Carol Bennett, who is the CEO of HFL Education and brings a unique 360 perspective both across the system and at school level through a really rich career.
• 0:32
  And, Carol, we're asking today, has education become a juxtaposition?
• 0:36
  We spend a lot of time talking about this, don't we?
• 0:38
  How the system just doesn't knit together and seems to kind of do the opposite.
• 0:42
  So one of my favorite at system levels is the fact that local authorities are statutorily responsible for the provision of school places, yet can't open new schools.
• 0:53
  They have to be free schools, which is a completely different process.
• 0:57
  So kind of whole notion of school place planning becomes nigh on impossible.
• 1:02
  And then I look at school level and I see school budgets are under pressure like never before.
• 1:08
  And schools, if you're an academy, you can't go into deficit.
• 1:10
  If you're a maintained school, your local authority is saying, you can't go into deficit.
• 1:15
  Yet, we've got this sort of huge inclusion agenda where, schools are being told they need to take a pupil who comes with, legally protected provisions that cost money and the budget isn't there to meet that that need.
• 1:27
  Yet the school can't go into deficit.
• 1:29
  It's really challenging.
• 1:31
  I mean, are you seeing this level of juxtaposition and what do you make of it?
• 1:35
  There are so many, Catherine.
• 1:37
  And as you say, this can just swallow up the entire of your head as you think about how nothing really matches.
• 1:44
  And the incentives don't match the vision and the system doesn't work together.
• 1:49
  And there are holes in it.
• 1:50
  And I think that's a real problem for us as educators, because we can get sucked in the hole of working out which bits don't align and that's great.
• 1:59
  And I think we're going to do that today.
• 2:01
  The problem is, it's really tempting to just do that all day, and then you have to stop yourself slightly and say, actually, what shall we do to fix it?
• 2:10
  What can I do?
• 2:11
  Because again, there's a juxtaposition in the system straight away, which is we can spend all day saying how everybody else is like this down.
• 2:19
  And sometimes there are things we can do to make it better.
• 2:22
  if you don't have an outlet for pointing out where it doesn't match, you kind of can't move on, you can't heal, and you can't find a way forward.
• 2:29
  So I guess there's a juxtaposition in this conversation itself.
• 2:32
  We're going to do what I, what I always urge myself not to do, which is explore some of those, but we're doing it in the context of, okay, what can I do about it?
• 2:40
  So I don't know if you want me to list some of them that keep me furious in the evening and furious in the night, should we just whisk through some of them Catherine?
• 2:49
  Let's start with Ofsted.
• 2:50
  There's a fundamental flaw in that we don't really know what it's for anymore.
• 2:54
  I used to back in the day, it was really, really clear it was a school improvement tool and it was about me as an educational professional and starting off in the very early inspections, me as a classroom practitioner, I used to get an envelope telling me what worked well and what I needed to improve, and it was actually about me being better at my job, and it was holding me to account for doing a good job, but also providing advice on how to improve.
• 3:17
  And I think that was really clear at the time.
• 3:20
  Now I end up slightly confused because it's become everything to everybody, and therefore I'm not sure it can ever do its job properly, because now it's really about parents choosing the right school for their children.
• 3:32
  That's what we were told in the latest refresh Well, we know in education you need to be really clear on audience and purpose.
• 3:38
  Children know that by the time they're in year four, what is the audience?
• 3:43
  What is the purpose?
• 3:44
  And then you align the tools behind it.
• 3:46
  And if you're trying to satisfy two really different audiences, you're not going to be able to do a great job.
• 3:52
  I don't hold the leadership responsible for that.
• 3:53
  That's a system failure.
• 3:54
  We're trying to please too many people.
• 3:56
  Is it school improvement?
• 3:58
  In which case I expect to see certain kind of comments and certain kinds of reporting mechanisms?
• 4:02
  Or is it for parents to choose a school for their child?
• 4:05
  And I've got really lost in the middle of which one we're trying to do, and whether or not we can do that well.
• 4:10
  That's one.
• 4:11
  We could talk about finances, so you can be in trouble if you're a maintained school the local authority will be breathing down your neck, understandably, if they're holding on to your deficit.
• 4:21
  But equally, you can do really well in Ofsted by ignoring that completely and providing a stellar education.
• 4:28
  But the minute you leave the school, it all collapses because there was no money.
• 4:31
  You're not held to account by the same people.
• 4:32
  It used to be even worse because the ESFA, who hold schools to account for money, were in a completely different unit than Ofsted and I used to see case studies where the ESFA would talk about marvelous financial leadership, and I knew what was happening in the schools and the trust and it made me want to cry.
• 4:50
  But the same happens too with Ofsted, where they glorify practice but forget to mention the fact it's completely unsustainable and the minute they walk away that school will fall to bits There isn't the balance in the system.
• 5:00
  So that's two just off the top of my head.
• 5:03
  I'll add another one in, which is, around falling roles.
• 5:06
  So we know this is a growing problem across the country.
• 5:10
  Yet again, it's back to this notion of of place planning the system has almost set schools up in competition with one another.
• 5:18
  So on the one hand, you want a system that benefits all children and young people but on the other hand, schools now, are kind of on their own when it comes to sustainability and success.
• 5:27
  So actually, are you going to be the one that's going to reduce your published emission number, by a form of entry in order to, you know, enable the school up the road to survive.
• 5:35
  And if they're an academy, they can't be directed by the local authority.
• 5:38
  So again, we've kind of got this system that, wants us to work together but also pits us against each other.
• 5:45
  And that's a real problem, isn't it?
• 5:47
  Because I would I would cast my mind back several years about the lessons we have learned, because it feels like we forget lessons we've learned, which is we tried to be competitive.
• 5:58
  It doesn't work really for schools.
• 6:00
  You do want to be ambitious, but it doesn't mean to say that you have to put somebody else down for you to be really good.
• 6:05
  It's kind of a rising tide lifts all ships.
• 6:08
  We know really, most of us in education, that it's a collaborative pursuit.
• 6:12
  It's a community pursuit.
• 6:13
  There's no point my school being excellent, but only because I've crippled the school next door and they have no resources, no pupils, no one take satisfaction with that.
• 6:22
  It's a really difficult thing if we go back to the, the falling rolls, Catherine, it's never going to be solved by politicians because there's a juxtaposition in itself.
• 6:33
  A politician is responsible for the financial outputs of a local authority.
• 6:37
  But it's really, really unpopular to close a school.
• 6:40
  It's a lot to ask of a politician to close the school and therefore in that gap, there are school leaders trying to run a school that absolutely cannot be run because it can't be afforded.
• 6:52
  Now we have to make a choice on that as a community, if we really value small schools and that there's another juxtaposition coming in in a minute, probably the way we fund them isn’t the path.
• 7:02
  If we look at what we're praising in terms of rhetoric on the radio, on the TV, inclusive practice, it's certainly what parents want is certainly what I want for my child.
• 7:10
  I want my children's have the very best education they can have.
• 7:14
  And if you're talking about that kind of inclusive, personalised, localised education, we know that the best people are providing that all smaller providers who really, really know their children, but they're the ones who are funded really, really badly because you’re paid per pupil.
• 7:30
  So the system pulls us apart there, what are we trying to do?
• 7:34
  And if we really believe an inclusive education is the way forward, schools have to be funded differently because at the moment we talk in one direction about what really matters in education.
• 7:45
  But actually all the incentives are hanging on the opposite, are hanging on the greatest good for the greatest number.
• 7:52
  Really high standards, parents queueing out the door, making sure that you have absolutely full year groups because you don't want people coming in mid-year.
• 8:00
  In year admissions that can throw you're data.
• 8:03
  So the system incentives all rely on you being a really high performing school in your area and sucking out all of the really high practice, all the best teachers, and yet that isn't what we're saying we’re wanting, so which one is it?
• 8:18
  Because in the middle of that headteachers are being pulled apart.
• 8:23
  They're being asked to be everything to all people.
• 8:26
  And you can't be. You are going to fail.
• 8:28
  You are going to get letters of complaint from either direction, whatever you do.
• 8:33
  And it's because the policy isn't clear.
• 8:35
  We haven't chosen our vision for education and are lined up behind it, and that makes things really, really confusing for everybody.
• 8:42
  I couldn't agree more.
• 8:43
  And I think almost the largest juxtaposition in all of this is what are schools?
• 8:49
  Are they public institutions to deliver the very best outcomes for children, young people or are they businesses?
• 8:54
  And again, I think we like to think they're both and they can't be both because actually, by very definition, public services exist to provide to everybody.
• 9:04
  And businesses kind of exist on on competition.
• 9:06
  So I think we could talk all day, Carol, about how the system doesn't align, can I throw in a third one as Go on well that appeared in Covid.
• 9:13
  I was back in a trust in Covid and there was a third.
• 9:17
  We've heard it before, you know.
• 9:18
  What is it about?
• 9:18
  Is it about long term education?
• 9:20
  Is it passion for learning?
• 9:20
  Is it high standards?
• 9:22
  I think it can be all of those things.
• 9:24
  But the third one that appeared in Covid almost overnight, that was a shock to most of us in the system, was it became about childcare.
• 9:30
  Suddenly it was all about making sure adults could get to work.
• 9:34
  The educational outcomes weren't important.
• 9:36
  That was all secondary to helping parents work.
• 9:40
  Now, again, you can probably do all of those things, and you can probably look to international systems that balance inclusivity, high standards, high ambition and help parents get out to work.
• 9:51
  You can do all of it, but you have to plan for that.
• 9:54
  What you can't do is oscillate between what's really important and what's not.
• 9:57
  It feels like that's what we do sometimes.
• 10:00
  One morning it tells you to go in one direction.
• 10:01
  Everybody runs about in that direction, and then it all changes tomorrow.
• 10:06
  We need stability and calm I'm and going to go back to some 2016 research I think was from the Harvard Business School, but was about the best school leaders and the best school leadership style is not as you would expect.
• 10:20
  People often think it's the charismatic shouting on the gates, I'm going to characterise it as the Phoenix trust mentality, you know, oi you come here, the turnaround kind of leadership style that isn't the style that we know works best for pupils in the long term.
• 10:35
  In the research, it was talking about the economist kind of leadership style.
• 10:39
  The architect leader takes a long view of where you're going to go and makes the right long term, sustainable decisions to get there.
• 10:48
  We know that it's the best kind of leadership style for a school.
• 10:51
  We knew it in 2016.
• 10:52
  I think it still remains current today.
• 10:55
  Interestingly that's not always what goes down well on a head teacher interview panel.
• 10:58
  I’ve sat on many head teacher interview panels and communities kind of want Alan Sugar, a lot of the time.
• 11:04
  That's the leadership style we see celebrated But actually it's not the best leadership style even for a technology company.
• 11:10
  I read some research about the best technology leaders, you probably don't know their names, with the exception of Steve Jobs.
• 11:15
  We remember him because he is the exception to the rule.
• 11:18
  But most technology leadership, are the the architect style that the quiet accountants that have worked their way through the system and deliver long term, sustainable results.
• 11:27
  It's the same in schools, and you can't have that kind of leadership style as easily if the parameters are always shifting and we're running around trying to please everybody, I would argue, I think we do have architect leaders in schools.
• 11:42
  We have really, really strong leadership who are really been disserved by a service above them.
• 11:48
  Policy above them that adopts the runabout style.
• 11:51
  We've got to align and just make our decisions about what's really important as a whole country.
• 11:58
  What do we believe matters in education and then line the whole system up behind it.
• 12:03
  We can't keep swinging about.
• 12:05
  And I think we would all recognise that.
• 12:08
  And it's almost a cliche if you wouldn't want to start from here with the system because it has become so fragmented, but also The stable door's open, we can't put this fragmented system back in the box we are where we are, and we have to make this system work now in the interest of children and young people.
• 12:22
  And I remember actually, three years ago, sitting down for a coffee with you, and saying, why are we still doing this, Carol?
• 12:29
  And you saying, if we didn't do it, who else is going to do it?
• 12:33
  You know, we've got to keep getting up in the morning and trying our best to knit the system together.
• 12:38
  So how do we knit a really fragmented system in a way gets meaningful results for schools?
• 12:45
  Is it more important than ever that schools are working in partnerships and in localities in order to secure long term educational outcomes and financial sustainability?
• 12:55
  As you say, the first thing is we all have to have a commitment.
• 12:58
  These children deserve our very best, and we have to get involved in the conversation and we have to try and make a difference.
• 13:06
  And then I'm going to be very primary school teacher always singing an assembly banger everybody will know spec, spec, spec in my brothers eye, log, log, log in my own.
• 13:14
  I'm not going to do the whole song, but I think there is an element of that.
• 13:17
  We do this to ourselves.
• 13:19
  We do it to ourselves when we admire the loud shouty over here kind of leadership and don't also in our community, celebrate the calm.
• 13:28
  One of the best head teachers I ever saw in our trust really didn't think she was because she was just amazing but in a quietly, she was privately angry with herself that she couldn't be more like other people that she saw celebrated on Twitter and on LinkedIn.
• 13:44
  She didn't think she was as good as them and actually, I would argue she was better than them.
• 13:48
  She took really solid long term decisions.
• 13:51
  So we as a community have to celebrate that.
• 13:53
  We have to celebrate people who aren't as loud, who aren't as noisy and make long term decisions in the interests of children.
• 14:00
  I think that's the first thing.
• 14:02
  And the second thing is we have to not let ourselves be sucked into the binary, divisive world we see in our wider society.
• 14:10
  It's really easy at the moment to all pick on each other.
• 14:14
  You can do this with the SEND crisis.
• 14:15
  You know, schools who say, well, it's not me, it's the local authority, and the local authority say it's not me, it's national policy.
• 14:21
  What if it's all of those things and stop arguing about who else needs to sort themselves out, and actually, we have to say, what can we do ourselves to make this better?
• 14:31
  And one of the things I'm really proud about is if I look nationally, people are spending so much
• 14:37
  time: is maintained right?
• 14:38
  time: Is academies right?
• 14:39
  time: Yah boo I hate academies, yah boo hate maintained.
• 14:42
  time: It's the wrong conversation.
• 14:44
  time: I love both, Bruce Forsyth, they're all my favorites.
• 14:48
  time: I've worked in the academy sector.
• 14:49
  time: I've worked in the maintained sector.
• 14:51
  time: Both do a really, really good job.
• 14:54
  time: Therefore we're arguing about the wrong thing.
• 14:56
  time: We should be saying, how do we work together?
• 14:59
  time: And that's something we can do.
• 15:01
  time: And it's a choice.
• 15:02
  time: So in HFL we do work with academies and maitaineds we understand that local context matters and people come together to make a choice not to argue, but to say, where can we solve a problem together?
• 15:15
  time: So yesterday I had the absolute pleasure of going to a SEND conference in Hertfordshire.
• 15:18
  time: It was absolutely packed with people from secondary and primary, not arguing about who's the best and whether or not primaries have to work harder than secondaries, the secondaries have to work...primaries...again that's a really easy debate.
• 15:30
  time: There were early years practitioners there.
• 15:31
  time: There were people who just cared about inclusivity from all sectors, from SATs, MATS, maintained and free schools, saying what shall we do in our locality that meets the needs of the children we know?
• 15:44
  time: And that's really important.
• 15:45
  time: I will also give a shout out to HASH our secondary...we've got nearly 100 secondary heads in Hertfordshire.
• 15:51
  time: It's all too easy for the academies to meet together, the MATs to meet together, the maintaineds to meet together.
• 15:55
  time: Well, that really isn't going to crack it, because the academy system can mean that you are ten minutes down the road from a completely different academy.
• 16:03
  time: Solving my problem is not going to help the locality, and it might not help siblings who end up in different places.
• 16:10
  time: Big shout out to our local heads who come together.
• 16:13
  time: They don't care what sector you're from, and they will sit in a room and say, what shall we do about the changing needs of education?
• 16:21
  time: What shall we do about the changing needs of young people in our community?
• 16:25
  time: Because they are different to the children in Surrey.
• 16:27
  time: They have different life experiences, different challenges, different strengths, and they're going to have to be global citizens.
• 16:33
  time: So how are we going to build on the strengths and bridge the weaknesses as a community?
• 16:37
  time: I think that's what we can do as a community is choose better, choose to be a collaborative community that celebrates the things that really matter and not get distracted by the yah boo I'm better than you.
• 16:51
  time: You're better than me.
• 16:53
  time: And I think HFL has a role in that.
• 16:55
  time: But actually, we're not on our own.
• 16:57
  time: There are lots of people who choose better, so we're in a group called the APEA.
• 17:01
  time: There are partnerships like ours in Haringey, Camden.
• 17:04
  time: And again, it's really clear I could carry on listening them, I feel really bad, I've left my friends in Sheffield out, but I won't carry on.
• 17:11
  time: But it's really clear that in those areas, like in Camden and Haringey, where people rise above what separates them and focus on what really matters, we learned this in retail, keep the main thing, the main thing, the main thing is children.
• 17:24
  time: The children in our schools, where they've done that standards get better the outcomes are better for children in those areas because it really is about localisation but a community pursuit.
• 17:35
  time: And it's funny, isn't it, Carol?
• 17:36
  time: Because we often say it all comes back to the early years.
• 17:39
  time: It all starts in the early years.
• 17:41
  time: And I guess what I'm hearing from you is, you know, what are we teaching children in the early years?
• 17:44
  time: We're teaching them be good citizens, to take their turn, and I suppose this is the whole arguing about juxtaposition, isn't it? Yes.
• 17:52
  time: The system can put us against each other, but there is a better way if we take inspiration from the early years and kind of come back to well actually, we all need to work together, we need to build friendships and we need to build collaboration and cooperation, because at the end of the day, the outcome we want is the same.
• 18:09
  time: We want the very best for children and young people.
• 18:11
  time: No matter where you sit in the system, whether you're Martin Oliver sat in Ofsted, which is one of the juxtapositions we started with right through down to, if you’re the early years teacher in a in a classroom.
• 18:22
  time: So it strikes me that actually, almost taking a lesson from our first stage in education about learning to work together, learning to be together, learning to cooperate and collaborate is the key to this.
• 18:34
  time: And you know what I really love about our sector?
• 18:36
  time: If you snap me in half like a stick of rock, genuinely couldn't love our sector more because I think that's what all of our sector wants.
• 18:45
  time: And sometimes we get swept up in societal behaviors, but actually instantly.
• 18:50
  time: If you talk to our practitioners, this idea of a community of practice is one that resonates with everybody, and it's something we need to remember when it gets really tough.
• 18:59
  time: So we always love to end these little mini podcasts with a take home.
• 19:03
  time: And I guess the take home here is you're not going to fix the system because stable door is open and the horse is bolted, and there are all sorts of fragments out there that are never going to quite align.
• 19:13
  time: But actually, if we come together, we have a better chance of giving children and young people the very best up.
• 19:21
  time: I think so, and I think building in time to stop wobble your head, chuck in not being pulled into the easy answers.
• 19:30
  time: And we’re doing the right things that we can do to make a long term difference.
• 19:34
  time: And I think the note I'd like to finish on again is that reference I gave to that conversation I had with you about why don't we just give up and go home?
• 19:41
  time: And you saying, we can't do that if we can't make this work nobody can, this system relies on everybody acknowledging that there yes, there are juxtapositions and they can be really difficult.
• 19:52
  time: On days they will make you lose your, your faith in the system.
• 19:55
  time: But actually it is about focusing on why we're really here and what really matters.
• 19:59
  time: And that's what keeps you going, I think So we hope you enjoyed this podcast.
• 20:02
  time: If you did, don't forget to like and subscribe to the series.
• 20:06
  time: If there are any questions you have for Carol on juxtapositions or her experience across the education sector or for me, then leave us a comment in the comment section and we'd be delighted to get back to you.
• 20:15
  time: So however you enjoy your podcasts, we hope you've enjoyed this one.