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Why church hurt drives people to ChatGPT instead of pastors · Hart & Hustle Podcast

• Efrain: Welcome back to another episode here on the Horn Hustle Podcast. My name is E Fran, and who do we have here? Laurel Bunker: Pastor Laurel Bunker. Efrain: Yes, Miami. Are you virtually visiting from where? Laurel Bunker: Minneapolis, Minnesota. Efrain: I love it. I love it. Not a lot of people actually probably know about it. So if no one knows about Minnesota, Minneapolis, what is the thing that you guys are well known for? Laurel Bunker: Well, historically we've been well known as the center of industry, right? Three Target Corporation, those are Minnesota Corporations, General Mills, Pillsbury. We've been known as as that place. we are also right above us. We have the largest of the Great Lakes, and but I think in recent years, unfortunately, we've been known for some other things. We've been known for George Floyd, we've been known for most recently what has happened in with with ice and the presence of ice in Minneapolis. And so certainly during the murder of George Floyd is when Minneapolis I think had a different presence other than the home of Prince and Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis and the Minneapolis Sound and which were also really known for the theater district The Great Food. But I think beyond that, the murder of George Floyd put us on the map in a different way. Efrain: Well, I definitely learned some stuff about the whole target and the 3M and all that. See, I I didn't know myself. Only thing I knew is exactly some of the things that you mentioned, plus that wrestling was there recently. for those that are wrestling fans watching or listening. But it it it is interesting, right? that some people don't know really what happens until the negative shows out and all of a sudden you guys are on this radar for for the wrong reasons. what did that time actually feel like? Laurel Bunker: Yes. Efrain: Because you were there, you know, we seen it from the news perspective, but what did that look like for those that were actually within the city? Laurel Bunker: It was a really overwhelming time. there were a number of people that flooded into the city, certainly individuals that came to wreak havoc. there were people who took their license plates off their cars, were driving through communities, were painting racist slogans in the heart of tr predominantly African American communities like I was. We had Black Hawk helicopters overhead. I live in the shadow of the state capitol and I live a block off of the main thoroughfare which is University Avenue and I can remember hearing people going from the site where George Floyd was murdered the day before. I could hear the chants of people as they crossed the Mississippi River and started to walk toward the State Capitol. I remember when our state capitol was fenced in and the National Guard, hundreds of National Guard guardsmen were around. It was it felt like a police state. It felt overwhelming. It felt dark. it felt chaotic. It was an overwhelming time. And at the same time, the Lord moved in some incredible ways in the midst of ministries that reached out to people at the epicenter. there were police officers who were kneeling down and praying with people who wanted to see things changed. We saw gang members and others being baptized who wanted to leave the lifestyles that they were in, prostitutes. So the media would never cover the glory of what God did in the midst of darkness, but there was a lot of good things that happened even in the midst of hard things. Efrain: Which is your space, right? Kind of your bread and butter. You are one we had a conversation that I just t tell you a little bit I had to share with my wife. I mean, the way that you are also pouring into others. and you're part of while you're talking about what was happening, you're probably a part of it all. were you out there as well, kind of serving the community in this way? Laurel Bunker: Yeah, I was more serving other pastors, trying to make sure that people were were safe. I spent a lot of time in evangelical churches also trying to encourage people not to run away from the heart of the city, but instead to look at it and to see how they could serve. so pastorally I was present, but I was also trying to be behind the scenes and let young people lead. And that was an encouragement because I I think as a as a leader, as a pastor, like your primary role isn't on a stage. Oftentimes Efrain: Mm. Laurel Bunker: it's behind the scenes praying for other people. And so that that was a joyful opportunity for me is to cheer other people on, but also encourage people not to let fear keep them from being out in the street, to be where people are, because that's really what people want. Is everyone's not always going to come to a church or another house of worship. A lot of times they want people to come to where they are. Efrain: Yeah, I love it. Can we talk about the organization that you're a part of and what the role is that you play with them for those that are watching and listening? Laurel Bunker: Yeah, so I I have two organizations I'm a part of. The first is I am the principal owner and director of the book the Bone Corps Collaborative. Bonecore is bunker in French, it means of good heart. And so I'm the principal trainer and educator for that organization that I started about six years ago. So I work with industry and government and others to get people to lead, as I say, with head and heart in mind. That it's not enough just to have a great you know, a great p plan and and vision for your organization if you don't have a healthy team or if you can't take your your plans and your goals and actually review them and op and make that a better more healthy opportunity for your organization. So I do that and travel quite a bit, but in this role also that I'm in, I serve as the vice president of training and operations for pulse evangelism here in Minneapolis, where our primary goal is to Reach the lost and unleash young evangelists to reach their own cities and communities for Christ. Efrain: I love that. And how do you do with posts? Are you guys like just boots on the ground you know, seven days a week? Is is it you guys bringing people into a certain location to to experience it? Laurel Bunker: Yeah, we do multiple things. One our founder, Nick Hall, he's a young guy. He's just forty-four, but this is our twentieth year of of this. Nick is a has always felt compelled as an evangelist to to reach the lost. He's never known a time where he hasn't wanted to talk to people about Christ. And so we do both large scale events, that meaning our large arena events, fairs and festivals where we work with large music talent and then we come onto those stages and preach the gospel. But we also have, I would say one of our principal ministries is one called Pulse One Hundred, where we try to identify a hundred young evangelists every year to be a part of a nine month intensive program where they're given mentors, where they're trained by some of the nation's kind of greatest leaders, Francis Chan. And other individuals of that nature to really do two things. One to make sure that they're spiritually and personally healthy themselves. What we don't want to do is just get people who have a great personality and want to get up there and preach at people, but aren't healthy and don't have a love for people. And so we mentor them, we train them up, and then we four times a year gather them face to face because they come from 40 plus cities. across the nation. So we gather them together four times a year across the country for about three days to train them, mentor them, pray over them, get them in front of great leaders so that when they go back to their communities, they can be unleashed. And then in between those four times, we have them in what we call master classes where they're online and in community where we're teaching them. So I teach quite often, as does Nick, as do other pastors, ministers, educational leaders, To help them be whole and healthy, because all of them are between eighteen and thirty years old. So a lot of them are college students or are trying to figure out young adulting, maybe they're newly married, but the one thing that is clear about all of them is they have a passion to reach their generation and reach the lost. And they wanna do that using the breadth of the gifts that they have. Efrain: Love it. And and how many people are you guys serving on a year? Looks like looks like you guys are really busy year long. Laurel Bunker: Yeah. We are busy. We've got probably this we are right now recruiting our sixth cohort of 100 young people. and so we are in the midst of that. And then Nick Hall, who is our founder, is traveling quite a bit. We have some major events that we do every year. Probably one of the largest is called Amplify, which happens in Benton, Arkansas. This last June we had 50,000 people over two days join us for worship. But also for word, and that's an opportunity where we get some of our young alumni, young evangelists who just share with people their stories. I think people get excited about hearing 18 to 30 year olds like, man, sharing the the boldness of where they were, what happened to them, some of them being product of of of rape or some of them coming out of some really broken lifestyles and how they've been captured by Christ and now they're like, hey. Whether they're starting run clubs or whether they're on college campuses, whether they're using their vocations. We've got some people who've come through Pulse One Hundred who work in the medical world. We've got a third year medical student who's a part of our stuff. We've got somebody who works for NASA. We've got a lot of people who are everywhere and they're just trying to find their place, their gifts, and then they're trying to reach people who may have a raised eyebrow about Christ. Efrain: Did is this the space you always knew you wanted to be in? Like w did you gr kind of grow up understanding the church, understanding religion, or you too just just like somebody else may have caught that later on in life and says, Hey, I gotta give my my life to God. How did all come about for you? Laurel Bunker: Yeah, I was raised in the church. I was actually raised in the Catholic church. the majority of my family are still in the Catholic church, but I think growing up for me in that time, I didn't know anything about a personal relationship with Christ. I think I was more aware of my own sin condition, and I think I had a feeling that I was somehow disappointing to God, and so my job was to constantly prove that I loved God enough, but I always felt a bit like God was just past my fingertips and my and I was always kind of jumping to get God to to touch me, to care about me. And it wasn't really until my later years of high school when I went on a retreat that I actually learned that God wasn't perpetually angry with me, that I wasn't a a failure, that my job wasn't to prove God's love, but God had already proven his love to me by sending his son into the world. to save me. And I think that started me on a trajectory of saying, well, dang, how come nobody ever described it like that? Why didn't anyone ever open the word to me and tell me how much I was loved by God rather than a disappointment? So it really was my late high school and college years that I started to have a different perspective of who God was. And what really hit me, Efrain, was I wonder how many other young people are feeling like they're a perpetual problem to God. Efrain: Mm-hmm. Laurel Bunker: I wonder how many adults feel like they go to church, but they don't think God cares about them. And I think that started for me a trajectory of who is God really, beyond our own denominations, be it Catholic or Lutheran or Baptist, who is God? Who is the God of the Bible? And how can I make that God known? And that sent me on a trajectory of seminary. I wound up going into seminary. I was ordained at twenty eight years old. And And then my bee line of ministry wasn't clean and clear from there because a lot of churches didn't have the money to hire me. And so I started working in programs like the YMCA, the Boys and Girls Club, because my heart really was for young people who were probably lonely and scared like I was. I mean, I had a good family, but I was lonely and I was scared a lot of my young adult life and a lot of my teenage life. And My heart broke. I think God gave me a heart to be like, Man, I feel for the lonely, I feel for the lost, I feel for people who cast their eyes down when you walk past them or don't know how to respond when you say hello. I just my heart broke. And so God I think gave me a a heart and a passion to say, look up and look at people and tell people their lives matter and help them to know who God is. That's been my passion ever since. Efrain: I love it. I love to hear that story. You want to know what crazy happened to me recently? So I was talking to my wife, right? Ever Laurel Bunker: Yeah. Efrain: growing relationship. And I she had mentioned something around like what would God want for a man as a husband? Right. And and I I always kudos to my wife. She's always been the one to kind of really open the Bible, to really keep me to to pray to all these different things. So when she said that, I really wanted to know what did God want? For a man as a husband, right? And so of course I went to AI and I went and I said, Hey, make it make sense to me. Like, right? Put it, put it in in terms that make sense to me. And if because AI knows a little bit more about me and my business and all that, it gave it to me in a way that I felt like, okay, it makes sense. Like I get it now. So here I am thinking I'm excited that I found this out. But then my wife and my neighbor, when I told them about this, they looked at me like I did the wrong thing. And I felt so bad. It was like, why didn't you just go to God? And I'm like, I I I I just wanted to know. Like, I truly there's like and that's how I end up my my neighbor ends up getting me a like a devotional for men to just kind of open up a one minute devotional that I can just kind of look to. My wife says, if you ever experience that, don't go to you know a chat G PT. To me, I I where do you fall in line with that? You know, I I'm very interested where I believe the Bible had to be kinda be re written multiple times. And now we have something like Tat that for those that are curious and those that just want to know, that we could really get that even quicker. But what is your thoughts? Laurel Bunker: Yeah, I I think there are benefits and I think there are challenges with AI and Chat GPT. The challenge with chat chat GPT is that it simply amasses information from millions of data points out there and then gives it to you in a way that tries its best to to in a clear way tell you what it it it may think you're asking. But ChatGPT Efrain: Yeah. Laurel Bunker: has no soul, no spirit, no testimony. And in some ways, I'll own it, as a pastor, I don't think that the church has done a great job of being available to people. And I don't think that most Christians in the United States, I think we have a lot of people who go to church, but if they were asked, I don't know that they would have a clear understanding of what is the gospel, how do we share it with people, even for people who may be atheist or agnostic or of another religion, why Jesus? I think if you can't explain those things, I think people are going to go to technology to find another answer. Now, I would say there are also we have to be careful about Chat GPT and other things because we're we're seeing that there are people who are actually suing ChatGP because they're going to Chat GPT for relationship things or mental health advice. And we've seen some legal battles recently where people have really been harmed by technology. and so I think What the challenge should be out of your going to Chat GPT is to wake up Christians in the church to say two things. One, st be prepared within thirty seconds to one minute to tell somebody your testimony. Be available, Efrain: Yeah. Laurel Bunker: be amicable, be kind. There's nothing worse than people who say they love God and you're an unloving, unkind person. Be ready to tell somebody who you were and what your sin condition was and what Christ did for you because that piques people's interest. But then two, spend the time and be available. Thank God for your neighbor who actually got you a devotional and actually followed through and did something. And so I my husband and I, we, you know, used to buy Bibles and just keep them in our drawer and when people would come to our door. We would talk with them about Jesus and just say, Hey, do you have a Bible? Or how can we, how can we help you? And we'd get it in a translation that was easy for people to understand. But we also started with our own story, like how we came to Christ, because growing up going to church does not mean that you love God or know God or will translate God to people in a way that will help them. There's a lot of people who go to church and are still hurting, angry, broken, lost, frustrated. So it's up to us as Christians who both know God, I think, and love God to make God accessible. it doesn't mean people won't go to Chat GPT, but I think it's a good challenge of the church to say, you should never allow Chat GPT to speak for you. Efrain: Love it. And why is it so important to share testimonies? I know we kind of shared our own testimonies offline, but for those that are watching and and they don't know, like what does that do for me if I was to share testimonies? If you can kind of just explain how many doors that opens for others. Laurel Bunker: Yeah. You know, I think when people know you've been through something and that you've come through it, it inspires people and it helps people to know, I'm not the only one. maybe, wow, she went through that too. Or wow, they were broken through that too. I had no idea. Wow, that thank God, like maybe I'm not as far gone as I thought. I just think sharing testimonies helps people to feel as though they're not That that God's goodness and grace is not exclusive to a certain number of people, but that God can work in and through anybody. it's part of why I love being on the board of Minnesota Adult and Teen Challenge. Teen Challenge, right, is a national organization. But for people who have wrestled woo with and through addiction, learning to be honest about brokenness and the reason for use and coming through that is not only a great deal of work, but is incredibly inspirational. And I think it's important for people to know, hey, you're never too far gone. God is not exclusive. You don't have to fix yourself before you come to Christ. That's Christ came and to to get to know us before we ever knew him. One of my favorite scriptures is while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. I love that. He wasn't waiting for us to get perfect. He was waiting for us to know that he is somebody who is accessible. He's not a god of stone or brass. He's not a god of of vitroll and anger. he's not your earthly father, he's much better. And so I think giving testimonies gives people hope. Efrain: I love it. You mentioned Teen Challenge. I actually live by one. They have a store and they have obviously a a different location, but we always give to it. Like as my child starts to grow out of things, we want to make sure that we can go ahead and pass along some of these things. For people that don't know Teen Challenge, maybe it is a team that may need the services, or maybe that's someone that just wants to be involved. Can you tell a little bit more about Teen Challenge? I know y you said are you still with them or you used to be with them. I'm not really sure. Laurel Bunker: Yeah, I speak for them. I was just there last week in their I was just there speaking in their chapel, and I served on their board almost ten years. Teen Challenge was actually started, I believe, in New York many years ago as a means by which to assist people who were struggling deeply with addiction and really had nowhere to go. Teen Challenge started as a faith based way of addressing deep spiritual maladies. And I think that's one of the things that Teen Challenge offers that is different than other addiction and recovery programs, although there are other Christian r addiction and recovery programs, but it has a long history of putting Christ at the center, helping people realize that they are not without hope or help in the world and that healing is possible. And so at the center of Teen Challenge is a Christocentric perspective that Christ Came to set them free, that there are emotional and psychological and spiritual and familial brokenness that is a part of a greater story, a part of the fall of human beings. And that a lot of times we pass on our brokenness generationally and other things, or we make bad decisions, or we hung out with a crowd, whatever the reasons are for where we found ourselves in a place of addiction. A lot of people, like family members that I have, have come through addiction as a means of. Trying to deal with their own wounds, fatherlessness or assault or other things. And so through the love of Christ, people are actually able to see themselves differently and see their journey forward out of addiction differently. It's not a matter of I'm so far gone or messed up and there's no hope, but that hope came in the person of Christ, and out of that they can find hope for their future. Efrain: Love it. I again always learn something new every day. I've seen the organization. We give to the organization. Never really knew about the organization. It goes back to the resources are in our own backyard. Sometimes we just don't know about it. So I appreciate you just just giving up your life to make sure we can into others. You know, we don't know who's broken. And I you know, I you could probably attest to this, but there was times where I was so broken and you would never even know. Cause I've always still showed up. You mentioned it a little earlier, I was still kind. I was still loving, right? Because that's what I wanted. So I was giving that out to the world. And I would tell you that because that's what I was giving, I was also at some point starting to receive, right? There was people that were seeing me for who I truly was and not the things that I was going through. So I I I love that this is where you're at. I had a great conversation with you the first time and and continue to have this great conversation because I think so many people feel alone and they don't, they have to know that they're not alone. That that God is truly walking with them, but they have to accept, as you mentioned, like anything. You could always lead a a horse to water, cannot force them to drink, right? But what a disservice Laurel Bunker: Absolutely. Efrain: for us to not be kind to others, to not recognize others, you know. you mentioned a little earlier, I want to talk about it. How important is it to just say hello, to just be kind, to just smile, to just share a story. How important is that? Laurel Bunker: Mm-hmm. Boy, I tell you, I was listeners, I was talking to Efrain earlier. my husband and I just celebrated 30 years of marriage on the 2nd of August, and we were out at a local restaurant, and we were just, you know, sitting down and looking our waiter in the eyes, and hey, how are you? And tell us your name. And Charlie, it's nice to meet you, Charlie. And just by the end of our in those brief interactions of him taking our order or him saying, Hey, congratulations on your anniversary and bringing us a glass of sparkling cider he at the end of his mess the end of our time said, You are some of the kindest people. He said you'd be surprised. He said, People come in here all the time and they could be so mean. Well that's happened two other times in a span of a week. And I remember when our kids were little Waiters and waitresses would oftentimes say, wait staff would say, Boy, your kids are so well mannered. But I I don't think it's hard to be kind to people, especially in the world that we're in right now that is so full of negativity and vitral, and every news station is giving us some worse story than the one before. I mean, people, you have a choice. Either you let yourself get frustrated, angry, cynical, mean. Or you just say, no, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna be that. I'm gonna be something different. And it doesn't take all that much to say hello or wave at somebody, or when you get your coffee at Starbucks and it takes a little longer, or someone says, I'll be right with you, say hey, no problem, take your time. You know, especially in the service industry, that is hard work. And if you've never done it, then you don't know what it is that you're doing. Like we we need to remember what it is. The food that we have on our tables comes because people are handpicking it. The coffee that you're drinking comes because somebody is doing the legwork. So saying thank you to somebody, if someone's late to your table saying, hey, give them that grace, it's only a matter of treating people the same way you want to be treated. And if you're not, ask yourself why. Why is it so hard? Why have you become cynical or angry? and ask yourself, man, what can I do about that? How can I just extend myself and be a little more? Gracious. It just it makes a huge difference in people's lives. You'd never know how much. Efrain: Yeah, you don't know what they're going through. I was just sharing this story. It happened earlier this morning. Talk about kindness and just always being you, authentically you, by the way. And I know you do a good job at this, but I received a message. I haven't spoken to someone some months now. I know the last time I spoke to this individual. Not like this is a friend that I've known for a long time, but when I got to meet him, I thought it was a great person. Life started to life, and I was a part of that. like just a part of that journey for him in a sense of being an ear. And I would try to pour into him as much as possible and allow him to know that it's going to get better. You just don't give up, stay consistent. You know, the things that we need to tell each other, tell ourselves sometimes. haven't talked to this man in in a in a while, but I received a message today. It was one of the first messages I received on how just thankful he was that I was there during those times and that he considered me a great friend and that I was pouring into him in a time of of you know need and that he would love to, you know, connect with me. And to me, I didn't know what happened to that individual, right? I was just doing what I felt was right. But you see that even though you may not get that instant gratification, because people say, Well, I was kind to them and no one was kind to me. Do not lose yourself. I've also heard this before. I used to be the friend that called friends, right? And just check up on people. Hey, how you doing? And you know, and people would think it's weird. And to me, that's just who I was. And I remember an older gentleman when I say, Man, I feel like it's not reciprocated to me. Like I would call and no one really checks upon me. He says, Ephraim, don't lose yourself because you're too worried about how other people are. This is who you are and you a great person. Just continue Laurel Bunker: Mm-hmm. Efrain: to be that. And I think for those that are trying to be a great person and trying to live this different life, is that do not get caught up because people are not reciprocating that to you. Do you agree? Laurel Bunker: That's right. I I a hundred percent agree. I mean, I was that same I was that same girl. Now I will say when you you have to know the difference between being a kind person and extending yourself out of a sense of self awareness and self esteem versus trying to extend yourself because you're so desperate for a relationship. That is an easy way of getting misused by people. Efrain: Mm-hmm. Laurel Bunker: Right. I think we see that in relationships and other things where you're like, I'm so desperate because I didn't get this love from this person or my mom or my dad. So let me give myself away. You know, I think as a person who used to deal with a lot of rejection, I think I thought my job was to make people happy and give myself away. And really what that did is make me feel worse about myself rather than better. So I would say to your listeners, do the work of being mentally and emotionally and spiritually healthy. Do the work of, you know, whether that's being physically fit, whether that is prayer, whether that is being a part of a community or starting one. Don't sit there and say nobody cares about me. Find a find a place in community. I've been seeing there's a place in Dallas. I just saw someone who started a walking group in Dallas and people would meet at a park and then the individual who started it s paired people up two by two, people who didn't know each other, and then they'd go for a mile or so walk. And what it did is it got people out of their homes and out of their computers and walking and getting to know people that perhaps were very different than them. But do that. Do the work of getting out of your own fear of not being accepted. I was somebody who dealt with a lot of rejection too. But you know, at some point you can either start to feel sorry for yourself or you can do the work to say, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. And I'm gonna go to therapy. I'm gonna go to counseling. I'm going to not just give my love away to the first guy or the first woman that comes along. I'm gonna go serve at a local hospital. I'm gonna work at a food shelf. I'm gonna give and serve alongside a pet shelter. Go do something that that spurs you on to be a more robust human being. Because out of that, you're not just sitting in your brokenness, you're actually saying, Let me go. Give this away while becoming healthy. Cause if you give yourself when you're unhealthy, you're setting yourself up to be misused. And that's hurtful. That that Efrain: Mm, you saying just yeah. Laurel Bunker: that can cause you to be misused by people because you're an easy target. Efrain: Yep. I love that you mentioned community. I think community is very important. it's like find your community or create that community. And I told you that I'm a wrestling fan and to create something around wrestling, it's something that brought peace and happiness to me. but realizing that I wasn't just showing up for me, showing up for everybody else that needed someone. 'cause a lot of times we do think that we're in this alone and which which really not. You know, there's other people just like us that love the same thing that we do, that are are are looking for someone just like us to be a part of their lives and how we change people's lives. Like now I got I'm to the point where people is like, I look forward to this on Mondays and Fridays. Like, what? This is cool. You know, it it but it now allows them to feel seen. So many people that'll be like, Man, you literally read everybody's comments, like I thank you for that. Well, it's because I understand what it feels like to you know, be the outsider to feel like no one cared or no one was listening to you. So I truly take everything that I've ever experienced in my life that I knew that I wanted is how I continue to do that. But you're right, don't lose yourself either. Cause so many people lose themselves in that and then ask themselves, Well, why am I not seeing the other side? Well you actually got lost in the wrong thing. You know, you you you wanted something, but you definitely took Laurel Bunker: Mm-hmm. Efrain: a a a detour. You know, you gotta get back onto that path. So I appreciate you sharing that. You dropping a lot a lot of a lot of gems. But Laurel Bunker: Yes. Yes. Efrain: I didn't want to go back to thirty years of marriage. There's gems there too, okay? So congratulations, one on thirty Laurel Bunker: Yeah. Efrain: years. what what is the secret? You know, Laurel Bunker: Yeah, thank you. Efrain: what is that thing when people when you when people ask you how did y'all stay together for so long? Because we don't see that in communities of color often. I think we're seeing it more and more now. But what do you say got you guys to 30 years together for? Laurel Bunker: A couple things. One, learning learning from the dating situations that I was in and I think my husband was in, is that you there are certain things that you learn out of either romantic relationships or other relationships that you don't want to repeat. I think number one. Number two, recognizing that the purse the the the purpose of marriage isn't for that person to fix you or to re or to complete you. You're you need to come to that relationship knowing what you bring to that relationship as well. And you again, you need to be your healthiest version of yourself. I think too often the perspective is if I'm married and have a home and have a person, then everything will be well. But I learned everything is not fifty-fifty. Sometimes it's seventy thirty. Sometimes we grow in different places, but you have to find a compatible spouse, a compatible partner. not just somebody who you're physically or emotionally attracted to or somebody who's got enough money. That stuff can die quickly. Can you communicate with them? Do they can you dream together? Can you look forward in the same direction? Are they honest? Do they have integrity? Do they care about their families? Are they timely people? Like, there's in my family, like I'm getting ready to preach this Sunday. I'm talking about legacy. My parents were married 66 years. My grandparents were married 50 years on each side before that. Marriage is a covenant gift given by God. It is not a right. You are you don't deserve, you don't have a right to be married. And if you think that that other person is to stay a size zero gentleman or to never have their body changed because they had a baby, well then you're not ready for marriage. If you think your the person's job is to be a trophy or Sis, if you think that man's job is to pay all your bills and never do No, you're not ready for marriage. Before you're with somebody else. Because if you're full of you need to complete me, you don't have what it takes to maintain marriage in the highs and the lows. Marriage is not about, it's not an entitlement. You are not entitled. It is a gift, it is a sacrifice, and it is a sacrament. And without that, You can forget it. That's that's home communities of color and it's white folks. I mean, I think sometimes people want to say it's us, but you know, we have reasons, whether it's historical slavery or selling people, we have there we have a history as human beings of brokenness. And I think Efrain: Yeah. Laurel Bunker: rather than looking at where the the percentages are, I think we need to look at the selfishness. And I think a lot of people now have fear if they came out of broken families or their parents weren't married or there was divorce, they're also really afraid of marriage. So I'd say again, do the work. If you want to be married and you want to be a healthy spouse and you want to be a healthy parent, then do the work before you get in a marriage. Don't expect the marriage to do the work for you. Efrain: I could talk to you all day because you just you really be out here just feeding people. I think you may have ruffled some feathers for some, but I think you were definitely speaking to others as well. You know, and I one thing that you mentioned and you started really early on in that conversation was legacy, which really led into the next com the next question I had for you is what is the legacy you want to leave behind when you think about when people speak about you and say your name in rooms, what do you want them to be talking about? Laurel Bunker: them to believe that I loved God and I loved them and that my love for them was genuine. It wasn't about getting something from them. It was giving something to them. And that she was a person that loved people well and that, you know, she gave it to us straight. I mean the reality is, as you said, Efrain, I probably did ruffle a few feathers, but look, I'm not gonna lie to people. I'm not gonna you know, that's one of the things I think is one of our biggest challenges that we have in culture is we wanna soften everybody and tell everybody what they want to hear. No, because the same the same people that would be mad at me for ruffling feathers are the same people that wanna come to me and have me pray for them because I'm not playing games with people. As a pastor Efrain: Mm-hmm. Laurel Bunker: and as a youth and young adult person, as a person who's buried kids, as a person who is worked with police officers and been at drive-bys and live in the heart of the city. Man, pastors have gotten really soft on people. My job isn't to stroke people's flesh. And I just was preaching last Sunday and I told people to coming to church isn't about comfort. There's nothing comfortable about Jesus cross. But the reality is, do would you rather have somebody tell you what you want to hear or tell you what you need to hear in love? Man, I wish somebody would have loved me enough early on to tell me what I needed to hear in love. I mean, that's the real deal. Like I don't Efrain: Yeah. Laurel Bunker: to it's not you to be a Christian is not to be a punk. You're like your job isn't just to tell people whatever they want to hear, it's to Efrain: Yeah. Laurel Bunker: tell them the truth. And you know, I I want people to succeed, I want people to be happy, I want people to see themselves as valuable before anybody else comes in their lives. I want people to know nobody deserves to buy you off or tell you something. No, no, no, no. But I also want people to hear. I have tried to hold the church accountable for what we have not been and not been either. I've I'll be the first to say, church, get it together, because we've hurt some people. So I want people to know, hey, Pastor Laurel's a real one. She loves people. She's out here in these streets with people. She's gonna tell us the truth, but she's gonna tell the truth in love. She'll take the shirt off her back. She'll do whatever is necessary. That people would know their life matters. That's what I want people to know. She let us know our lives mattered. And she was not gonna be soft on us if it meant longevity for us, hope for us, joy for us. Efrain: So good. Yeah. I I learned early on in my life when I used to buy a whole bunch of different cell phones. Someone says, Eframe, why are you buying all these cell phones? I said, because I wanted a new phone. He says, in life, you gotta learn what you want and what you need is completely different. And you just kind of mentioned it, right? Is what you want and what you need. And then I also took from what you just said is I've people ask me and they will always tell me in vent, right? Because everyone wanna call you the vent. And I had to learn and ask. Are you just calling to vent or do you wanna know the truth? Because a lot of times truth does hurt and I am just like you. When you're authentic, you don't know any other way but to tell the truth. Like that is just it. So man, I I appreciate you. If you could just leave us here with some words of advice for those that may be struggling right now and maybe trying to find Jesus or maybe they know Jesus but are also just like, you know, on that tea to you know, teeter totter trying to figure out where do I go right now? Can you just kind of Leave us with some good words. Laurel Bunker: Yeah. I would say to people, there's a difference between what people do and who God is. people can really wound you deeply. I know many people from many bif different backgrounds who have been so wounded by the big C church, but please try not to put that on every church that you encounter, every person that you encounter. you know, be honest about the wounds that you've had, but give Christ a chance and an opportunity. Number two, know that there are people who are out here who want to serve you, love you, walk alongside you, who aren't afraid of your objections, who have done the work like I have and others of studying apologetics to be able to try to answer robust questions that you have about faith. but two, know that you don't have to number three, know that you don't have to prove anything to God. But if you read the word of God, you'll find that God loved you long before you ever knew anything about God. And that there's no amount of sin in your life that would get God to say, time out, I'm done, too much. that again, while we were in the midst of doing whatever we wanted to do, Christ died for us then. He didn't wait for us to be perfect. And so I want you to know God is good, Christ is real. There are saints out here who wanna serve and walk with you with no strings attached, who aren't gonna say hurtful things knowingly. There are always gonna be some people that do not represent Christ well. And for that I apologize, but know that there are a lot of us out here who are gonna do our very best in hopes that we can represent Christ well to you the way that we're called to represent him. So don't give up. God is worth knowing. Efrain: Amen to that. And where can people find more information on what you guys are doing at the organization level? Laurel Bunker: Yeah, you can go to pulsemovement.org and you can find us there. and we will are happy to answer any questions. If you have questions about evangelism or other things, or if you just want to get in contact with me, you can reach me there as well. You can find my information there on the website. You can also find me in other places, Pastor Laurel on Instagram and other places as well. If you need some help. If you're like, where do I even start finding a church or what do I do if I'm church hurt or you need other resources, reach out. Happy to help. Efrain: Pastor Laura, I appreciate you so much. For those of you still watching, make sure that you like, subscribe, and comment. These are the conversations we continue to have with authentic leaders. So if you enjoy this one, you enjoy all the other ones. Latest. All right, pass.