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STSE #70: Breed Trait or Behavior Problem? · Sometimes There's Side Eye

• 0:12
  Welcome to Sometimes There's Side Eye, a podcast about two
• 0:16
  friends having real and unfiltered conversations about
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  dogs and people listen as we talk about our lives with dogs,
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  training, behavior, share some laughs and a whole lot of
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  banter. I'm Heather.
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  And I'm Christy. What are we talking about this
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  week, Christy Wait, first episode back in the new year.
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  Oh yeah, let's start out with some controversy.
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  Yeah, 2026 starting it off right.
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  It's all your fault. It's all your fault.
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  What are we talking about, Christy?
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  I don't know what what do we call this?
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  Behaviors. Breed specific behaviors versus
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  rescue specific behaviors. Sure, I don't care whatever you
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  want to call it. We don't really have a name for
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  it. Well, this is called Heather
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  sends a screenshot to Christy, and then Christy says, oh, oh,
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  oh, I have a topic. And then we sit here and start
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  talking about it, and Heather says stop talking.
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  We're recording right now. That is what's happening.
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  That's literally what happened. OK.
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  Can you start us off about what what was really getting your
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  goat here? So I was listening to a podcast
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  and and the person is is an amazing trainer.
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  So she had hinted at she would not get a rescue dog due to
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  unknown background and not knowing the parents.
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  But then when she talked about her dogs, I was like those are
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  not dogs I would have in my home.
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  Which is fine, but there also are dogs I would categorize as
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  behaviorally unsound. Interesting one has aggression
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  towards people and has cannot be freely with people, has to be
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  managed. And a large, powerful breed.
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  Yes, yeah. And then the other one is
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  terrified of everything in life right now due to not having any
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  exposure as a puppy to anything. And so she's getting this puppy
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  who is just scared out of its mind of people, new
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  environments, everything, everything is scary.
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  And so I was telling Heather, like, what gets me is that a lot
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  of times people will say that there's there's shelter dog or
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  somebody else's shelter dog has a behavior issue.
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  And automatically they say it's because it's from the shelter.
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  And that's why you don't get a rescue dog, because they have
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  these behavioral issues. And yet, when the same issues
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  show up in purebred dogs, they're not seen as behavioral
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  issues in the same way we would see them as behavioral issues
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  from a rescue. Yeah, yeah.
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  So I my first question to Christy was, do you mean
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  purebred dog or well bred dog? And I said.
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  I don't. Know she.
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  Doesn't know. And to be honest, I guess it
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  doesn't really matter, though I it's interesting when Christy
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  and I have conversations like this because we're constantly
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  trying to figure out where we stand and where we think the
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  public stands and what that all means.
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  And we kind of go around and circle.
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  Something, and if it matters. And if it matters, OK, so here
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  is where I started to go down. I have said before, when I
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  started out really getting into the Pitbull community, I found
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  it very difficult or disheartening.
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  I don't know what the right word is.
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  Saddening that the Pitbull type dog, and I'm going to put that
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  in like a huge umbrella, but shelter type Pitbull dogs do not
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  have the same type of community backing them as purebred dogs
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  that I had experienced. And I mean, I'm sure there are a
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  lot of people who are going to listen and be like, I back them,
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  I back them, but it's it's in a different way.
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  So like when I say that, what I mean is I obviously come from
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  Rottweilers and I was raised as a baby Rottweiler owner by
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  people who had been in the breed for literal decades, who shared
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  freely of their knowledge of the breed, from health to
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  temperament to all the things. So there's this huge, massive
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  Rottweiler community behind me that I can go to and it is
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  organized because we are Rottweiler enthusiasts.
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  And there's something about that that type is kept very tight
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  within the breed, right? Because it's a purebred dog.
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  Then you go to the Pitbull community and you don't have
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  that because these dogs are sort of coming from everywhere.
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  And one, there's not like genetic consistency where you
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  can be like, oh, there's the pedigree, blah, blah, blah,
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  blah, blah. And then two, there's not like a
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  club. There's not all of this kind of
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  stuff that is supporting these dogs and their owners.
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  So I felt like we do talk about it in a different way because
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  what that breed community in Rottweilers and the type and the
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  pedigrees and all that equal is a predictability.
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  And that is something, and I'm speaking for a lot of people
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  right here, that I feel like people like this trainer, they
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  don't see that predictability in shelter dogs go Christy.
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  Like I feel like that is the actual thing that they see that
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  is different. And that's predictability in
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  genetics, behavior, health problems like the good, bad and
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  the ugly. Like it's not, that's not to say
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  all roses elbow dysplasia is predictable in Rottweilers.
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  Like you go and talk to anybody who's being honest about the
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  breed. It's there and we're all talking
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  about it. But with that predictability
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  also come support. Like, I don't know, it's such a
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  mixed bag, but I feel like the reason this trainer is like, no,
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  I'm not going to go get a shelter dog is because there's
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  no genetic information on behavior.
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  Or health, right? And I, on the other hand, am
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  like, I would trust my dog, my shelter dog, hands down against
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  her dogs in a crowd, in my home, in interacting with people, in
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  sports, in everything, like hands down, both of all of my
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  shelter dogs. I do also wonder if that is an
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  exposure right because your exposure to so many good shelter
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  dogs, myself included, is so high.
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  And my bet is her exposure to shelter dogs is very low.
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  Right, Yeah, yeah. And I guess it does matter who
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  you surround yourself with. I was just thinking that this
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  week like it matters, makes a difference in your thinking and
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  how you can bounce things off and and having people with
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  different views is is so good because then we can have these
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  conversations, which before we started recording was way more
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  passionate and we would tote it down a little bit.
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  But it was good because we're both passionate about dogs and
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  behavior and all of it. What was interesting to me, I
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  feel like there's been and OK, and let me actually back up.
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  So what's interesting to me is I'm probably less exposed to
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  purebred or well bred dogs than I am to shelter ducks.
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  So I'm having the opposite. I've always seen all these great
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  shelter ducks and let me say I I've also seen the the worst of
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  the worst too. In the shelter.
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  You see everything when you volunteer in there.
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  You see the dangerous dogs, but you also see the most amazing
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  dogs. And so I'm not putting rose
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  colored glasses on this or anything like that, but I'm just
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  saying there's a lot of really great quality dogs in there.
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  And so then I go over to being exposed to these purebred dogs
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  in sports, and I'm like, I'm not as impressed as I wanted to be
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  with these purebred dogs. But I'm gonna be a smart ass
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  again and say purebred or well bred.
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  I don't know but like it depends on the dog and I'm not asking
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  these people like can I see your pedigree?
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  So I know this is a purebred dog or a wild bred dog like that
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  conversation is not happening. But what I am seeing is that
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  sometimes I'll experience a dog that maybe is really hand shy
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  and nervous around people and where somebody from The Who has
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  a shelter dog would be told, oh, they're like that because they
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  came from the shelter. What I'm experiencing is, oh,
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  that's normal for the breed. Don't worry about it.
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  Yeah. And I'm like, wait a minute.
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  So maybe some of these behavior problems, as we've labeled them
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  from the shelter aren't actually behavior issues.
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  Maybe they're just breed standards.
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  Maybe they're breed type. It's a fairpoint.
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  And like also, I think to my, I think about how we don't know
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  what a, what is quote UN quote normal for a Rottweiler mixed
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  with a chow mixed with a Chihuahua mixed with a German
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  Shepherd. Like what is normal for that,
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  right? So the overarching easy label
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  is, oh, that dog is adopted. That's why they're like that.
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  But IA 100% agree with you. Like we don't fucking know why
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  that dog is like that. We don't.
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  And the truth is, it's probably like 20 reasons.
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  And maybe that's where some genetic testing, I know they're
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  like kind of hit and miss and I hope they get better so that we
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  can kind of test and say, oh, you know what?
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  This is a pretty normal behavior for these breeds and my dog out
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  of, you know, three breeds it it can, it's 90% these two breeds
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  that have this behavior. So maybe this isn't a behavior
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  problem. Maybe it's just the breed.
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  Yeah. And maybe we work with that and,
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  and see what people in that breed are doing.
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  But isn't it also going back to that is if we are, if we are
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  paying attention to breed, we are also able to support rescue
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  and shelter dogs in a different type of way, right?
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  Because we're able to have more information about what they are
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  and who they're, who they might genetically be and then like
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  what they need to succeed. You know, I mean, I was saying
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  to you jokingly, of course, I go after border collies, like,
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  sorry, border collie people. But like I was saying to you how
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  also so people go out and they're like, oh, I want a
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  border collie because they want the idea of a border collie and
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  then they live with one and they're like, Oh my God, this
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  dog's biting my kid. And then the border collie gets
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  sent to border collie rescue And the breed specific rescue is
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  like, no duh, they're biting your kid.
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  It's called a herding breed. You know, So like to those
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  uneducated people who just went out and bought a border collie,
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  which I'm going to just say probably did not go to a good
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  breeder. If you were completely
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  uneducated about a border collie, go and buy a border
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  collie from a Walmart parking lot.
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  Then the dog ends up in rescue because the people aren't
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  educated when the people over here who know the border collie
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  breeder like no duh. Yeah.
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  Yeah, but like, isn't that the point?
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  Like if we all were more educated we would have less dogs
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  in rescue and shelter because we would know what the fuck to
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  expect. Yeah.
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  And also we would only be going to either the shelter or ethical
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  breeders, and then people who are unqualified to own a border
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  collie wouldn't get a border collie.
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  True, yeah. In a perfect world.
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  Yeah, and sometimes we only know like the mom if it's a puppy in
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  rescue, but a lot of times we can kind of tell what mom is at
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  least a little bit, not always. But and so maybe we plan like,
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  OK, this seems like it might be a high energy breed.
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  Yeah, maybe it isn't, maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
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  But also maybe trying to instead of pinning behavior issues on
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  the dog being a shelter dog. A.
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  Lot of these things are just maybe they're genetic makeup and
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  maybe it's not, maybe it's not such an issue for that breed.
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  I don't know. Does that make sense?
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  What I. Like I think what you're trying
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  to say is you would like to see people not say it's a behavior
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  issue because a dog is adopted. You would like people to say
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  it's a behavior issue because this dog is in the wrong home,
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  because it's a herding dog or because this these people were
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  did not expect this dog to have this much energy or this like
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  any Yeah, or maybe it. Feels like a double standard to
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  say it's a behavior issue because the dog is a rescue.
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  Agreed. Not a behavior issue because
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  it's a purebred. I I 100% agree with you there,
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  100%. We are on the same page.
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  You know when you were saying about when we're thinking about
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  setting people up to succeed, whatever, you know who comes to
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  mind is Juniper. So we had Molly on the show
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  sometime last year for the dog sports episode.
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  She her and her husband wanted a high energy Lord have mercy dog
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  who was going to be able to run because her husband does trail
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  running and whatnot. And so and they wanted to adopt.
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  So they went to a local rescue and they looked for litters that
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  looked hurdy and they found themselves a hurdy looking mom
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  and they got one of the puppies turns out, ha ha ha, she is
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  border collie, Australian shepherd or something like that,
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  very hurdy. And they did puppy training with
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  me and I was like holy shit, you need to do something with this
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  dog. And thankfully they were
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  educated. They went about things the way
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  we would like to see people, if at all possible, go about
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  things. And they set Juniper up for
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  success in a lot of different ways.
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  That is, people who thought about it, went and found it, and
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  then adjusted what they needed to to meet the needs of the dog,
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  which they were thankfully capable of doing.
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  And that's making like a whole lot of assumptions.
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  But there are so many people out there who go in, have no idea,
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  and get a dog like Juniper and it's a recipe for disaster.
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  And that same dog is a like, she has behavior problems, like it's
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  going to happen. I don't think that's because
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  she's adopted. I think it's because she's in
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  the wrong home. Sure, Yeah.
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  Or I feel like, you know, when I had Lucy in class and and there
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  was kind of an elitist. Well, she was just a bitch like
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  she was a. Real bitch, right?
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  Right. And was this woman, I I've run
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  into her several times since she doesn't Remember Me, but I don't
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  have Lucy. But she had said, oh, it must be
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  so hard to live with that dog. Yeah, Lucy was having a meltdown
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  being. Because her dog was being an
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  asshole. Yeah, and and we were trying an
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  X pen instead of having her like sit on a leash with me and Lucy
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  was having a meltdown. You know what, I've also seen a
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  whole lot of Australian shepherds have a meltdown
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  because they're not touching their owner.
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  Yeah. And.
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  Everyone's like, that's a normal behavior for a Australian
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  shepherd. They're very clingy dogs.
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  Like why is it not OK? For I agree.
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  Purple, but it is OK for Australian shepherds because,
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  you know, we know they're a needy breed.
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  I like Australian shepherds, by the way.
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  I think they're beautiful and very quirky and funny, but let's
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  be honest, that's a breed trait and and that's OK, but maybe
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  it's OK for my my mixed. Breed too.
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  Yeah, I think that you have two things happening too there.
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  One, some people are just assholes and like elitist.
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  And the thing she is is her dog can do no wrong and she's a
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  purebred blah blah blah, blah, blah, right?
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  So that's like, let's put her aside because she's just that
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  person, right? You also have going back to
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  that, OK, if we're going to say Australian Shepherds need to be
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  like touching their owners there again, people who are in the
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  sport community are very educated buyers who are going to
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  get Australian Shepherds and are well educated about what they
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  are and who they are. And so that is why they
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  instantly accept that about them and and and it's predicted.
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  Work away from you. And it's and it's a predictable
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  thing, right? So they were like they were
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  ready for it. And that is something that is
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  just different about people. And you also like, I also think
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  there's pure people who like a purebred dog and then there's
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  people like a purebred dog and do sports with their dog or show
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  their dog. That's like next level crazy,
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  right? These are people who are so
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  fucking passionate about their dog or their breed or both that
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  it's their life. And so they're always going to
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  make excuses or push away anything that's like quote, UN
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  quote a problem because they're passionate about it.
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  Yeah, and maybe we just stop saying it's because they're from
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  a rescue or 100 or so ever. And we just say, Oh yeah, my dog
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  just doesn't like other people handle it like my dog, only my
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  dog needs to give consent before yeah, allows people to handle it
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  or whatever. My dog doesn't like not loud
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  noises. No need to apologize for that.
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  That's just who they are as a as a dog.
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  I almost said as a human being, as a dog.
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  You know what's really cool about that though, is like,
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  isn't it what all of Pitbull advocates are asking for anyway
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  is that every dog is an individual.
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  And can we just not say every dog is an individual and let's
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  regard them as this is who they are and this is what they need
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  and just do right by them? Yeah.
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  And what's interesting is this conversation actually kind of
• 20:14
  started several months ago when we I don't when I was reading
• 20:21
  the standard for Staffordshire bull terriers.
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  Oh, OK, Tell me, Marks. I don't remember.
• 20:28
  I don't remember. Well, we, we had this
• 20:30
  conversation, Heather, but one of the breeds standards is that
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  we, we would expect that a Stafford would be hyper social
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  as a puppy and then as an adult we'll be.
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  A selective. And even selective with did it
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  say with dogs? For sure dogs.
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  I can't remember what it said about humans.
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  They're, I mean, they're expected to be human social for
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  sure. Yes, OK.
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  Human social but dog selective and here we are as a rescue
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  community saying and Staffords are different than pit bulls.
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  However, most people don't know that.
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  Most people see something Stafford looking in the shelter
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  and it's going to just be labeled as a pit bull.
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  Until maybe, I don't know, 10 years ago, I thought they were
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  the same thing forever. I would have seen a Stafford and
• 21:31
  said that's a pit bull. It's so cute, but here's this
• 21:35
  breed standard saying that they're going to be selective.
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  Don't expect them to be social. Don't you know all these things?
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  And as a rescue community, we're like shouting over here,
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  Pitbulls can be friendly. Don't expect them to be dog
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  selective. My Pitbull loves everybody and
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  every dog and like, and those dogs do exist and lots of them
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  do. But also like, I don't know,
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  there's this, this standard of like we're trying to sell these
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  perfect dogs on the shelter side.
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  No, the shelter dogs are perfect, but the breed itself is
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  like, Oh no, we don't, we don't expect that.
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  Like the Breeders are like, we don't, we would never expect
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  them to be social with every single dog.
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  That's not a thing. Well, I think that you also have
• 22:23
  to remember that you have and I, I'm going to say like when I'm
• 22:30
  saying the word breeder here, just know that I'm talking about
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  what I would consider ethical, more responsible breeders,
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  right? You have a breeder community who
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  is generally, generally going on the standard that we're not just
• 22:48
  producing to produce, right? That we are producing and even
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  if we don't have enough homes, they're staying with us.
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  They're not clogging the shelter system, right?
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  All of this stuff. And then we're also producing
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  perceived outcomes in general, Like there's always outliers,
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  but you know what to expect because it's a purebred dog and
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  they have a standard. There's not an overpopulation of
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  ethically bred, well bred dogs generally, whereas you have a
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  gross overpopulation in many regions of shelter dogs.
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  And so the need to, and excuse my like language here, but the
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  need to sell them is very, very different than that of an
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  ethical breeder. An ethical breeder is
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  unapologetic of this is my breed.
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  This is what I'm passionate about.
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  This is what I'm doing and I stand behind it.
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  Whereas volunteers at shelters are like, if somebody doesn't
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  come get this dog, it's going to die.
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  That's just, it's just completely different.
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  It is completely different, but I think in saying that like I
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  wanted to just give people the the knowledge in the out kind of
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  the out. I don't know if that's the right
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  word, but that not every pimple needs to be friendly with every
• 24:15
  dog. Breeds.
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  So replicative and that's OK because nobody's breeding for a
• 24:21
  standard of I mean, obviously we're not going backyard
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  breeders are doing whatever they're doing, but there's an
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  expectation on the well bred side of things that they're not
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  going to be social with every dog.
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  So we can't, we shouldn't put that on ourselves or adopters
• 24:43
  that their dog, our dog has. To be.
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  This Unicorn and every pit bull has to be good with every dog or
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  every person or because that's not what with the even the
• 24:59
  highest standard, that's not what the highest standard is,
• 25:03
  you know? Yeah.
• 25:04
  And I was lucky that I I ended up with a Pitbull who was pretty
• 25:08
  much good with. I had three.
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  Percent of dogs like I. Had three.
• 25:13
  Still some that she didn't like. That's OK, Yeah, but she's
• 25:17
  allowed to not like them. But yeah, I just think that's a
• 25:21
  lot of pressure. It is.
• 25:24
  Unnecessarily. And I think The thing is,
• 25:27
  ethical breeders don't have to feel that pressure.
• 25:29
  They don't have to deal with that.
• 25:31
  They they just don't have to generally.
• 25:34
  Right, because they're not. And it's not just against the
• 25:36
  stigma. No, it's just completely
• 25:39
  different. Yeah, and even if they debris
• 25:42
  does have a stigma like a amalgator, they have like yeah,
• 25:46
  it's embraced. That's what it's supposed to do.
• 25:49
  It's. Embraced what what I so you had
• 25:54
  an amazing pit bull. I had four amazing pit bulls and
• 25:58
  out of those four amazing pit bulls, three were social, one
• 26:01
  was not. And I do also think that
• 26:06
  obviously we're talking about pit bulls because like that's
• 26:08
  the most of one type of dog that we've had.
• 26:11
  And like the shelter population here is overwhelmingly pit bull.
• 26:15
  But I also think that you are, you do have an element of size
• 26:24
  that and and strength that is a factor in how we perceive things
• 26:31
  too. Because, and I've said this to
• 26:33
  you, if TR, if, if Trin or Tater were a Rottweiler and have done
• 26:43
  some of the things that they have done that they would be
• 26:50
  Dun, Dun, Dun, like they're no. But seriously, there are the, IT
• 27:00
  is different depending on what you have.
• 27:03
  And so the standard also has to be different depending on what
• 27:06
  we're talking about too. And so I just want to kind of
• 27:10
  like put that out there as well. Like there's a different level
• 27:13
  of responsibility depending on size and strength and all of the
• 27:20
  things. Yeah, an aggressive.
• 27:23
  Yeah, all of it. Dane is different than an
• 27:26
  aggressive 3 LB Chihuahua. 100% the damage that they can do is
• 27:32
  the responsibility any less I would say no, because at the end
• 27:36
  of the day you still have a dog, a dog, an animal that can harm
• 27:40
  someone. And your responsibility for that
• 27:43
  is equal to keep everyone safe, human and otherwise.
• 27:47
  But the damage that they're going to do is potentially
• 27:51
  different. Yeah, for.
• 27:53
  Sure. But I I think this is a really
• 27:57
  interesting conversation. I will say this, I think it is
• 28:02
  irresponsible of someone with a such a wide reaching platform to
• 28:08
  even imply that shelter dogs are risk or however it was worded.
• 28:15
  I don't, I don't even care how it was worded, but to even imply
• 28:18
  that when like there's so many people listening, if I sit and
• 28:22
  think about, OK, we're going into a barn hunt weekend, right?
• 28:27
  There are a lot of purebred dogs there, well bred or otherwise,
• 28:32
  both. There are also a lot of really,
• 28:36
  really cool mixed breed dogs from unknown origin, one of
• 28:40
  which you own. And so all of that, all of those
• 28:46
  dogs deserve to have the light shined on them, right?
• 28:50
  Like all of those deserve, all of them deserve their flowers.
• 28:58
  But really, I mean, OK, here's a question for you.
• 29:04
  So is Jackson an amazing example of a shelter dog because you do
• 29:15
  sports with him? No, I think he's just an amazing
• 29:20
  example of a shelter dog and I do sports with him.
• 29:24
  You know what I think? I think he's an amazing example
• 29:28
  of a shelter dog who is great at his core but is also getting his
• 29:32
  needs met and that. Likes him, yeah.
• 29:35
  So we are meeting some needs. Yeah, so like.
• 29:39
  I will say we had some a rainy season, very rainy weeks.
• 29:45
  And so there was like a week and a half, almost two weeks.
• 29:50
  He did no sports. So our agility was cancelled,
• 29:54
  Barn Hut practice was cancelled. And then the next week I think
• 29:58
  was Thanksgiving so I didn't go to agility again and or barn
• 30:03
  hunt. So it was 2 full weeks of no
• 30:04
  sports and I almost. Murdered him but doesn't it come
• 30:09
  back around to who cares what like the genetics are?
• 30:12
  Get what you want, but just make sure you're educated and you're
• 30:15
  filling the dog's needs. Yes, absolutely.
• 30:18
  Maybe that's like the whole point of the episode once again.
• 30:21
  Once again, nobody's dog is better than anyone else's.
• 30:25
  Just get what you want, but be educated and make sure that you
• 30:28
  can fulfill that dog's needs. Yeah, and if you see somebody
• 30:33
  having what you would deem a behavior issue, maybe don't
• 30:37
  blame on it being a sheltered dog one. 100% no, but seriously,
• 30:42
  I mean it like I think that's really what it comes down to is
• 30:46
  nobody needs to label anybody anything.
• 30:48
  Like, let's just do our best. Yeah.
• 30:51
  Yeah. Let's do what we can with the
• 30:53
  dogs that we have. If you've enjoyed this episode,
• 31:00
  subscribe, rate and share us wherever you get your podcast.
• 31:04
  Also come on over to Instagram and engage with us at Sometimes
• 31:08
  Their Side Eye. Thanks for listening everybody.
• 31:11
  Talk to you next time. Bye bye.