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How to lead with empathy · Project Podcast

0:14
Welcome to the OPM podcast. OPM is the childhood body for
0:17
the project profession. My name is Emma Devita and I'm
0:20
the editor of projects apm's quarterly journal and your host
0:24
in the hot seat today with me is Belinda Palmer, founder, and CEO
0:29
of the empathy business he was also the keynote speaker at
0:32
apm's women in project management conference.
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In September Belinda uses the sites of empathy to change the
0:39
way we lead at work, changing. Cultures to bring more
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empowerment to There's lives with a focus on belonging and
0:46
diversity. Belinda, is also the creator of
0:49
the global empathy index published in the Harvard
0:52
Business Review, which is the first index to measure empathy
0:56
and inclusion at scale. She works alongside CEOs and
1:00
leaders of large organizations to transform companies using the
1:03
power of empathy, a speech, to a p.m. members in September
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triggered. A lot of conversations and I
1:09
found what she had to say, both intriguing and highly useful to
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the art of project management. And so Belinda.
1:15
Welcome. I'm delighted to have you here.
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However, it's wonderful to be here.
1:19
Thank you so much for inviting me.
1:22
Just one thing. Unfortunately, it's not a hot
1:25
seat. It's a cold.
1:26
See Dixon going in London right now.
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So I'm pretty freezing. So if you hear my hands
1:31
well-being, it's just because I'm freezing.
1:34
Make sure you have a hot cup of tea.
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Next year, let's start at the beginning with the basics of,
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how do you define empathy and could you give an example of two
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of empathy and Action. So the way we Define empathy is
1:47
that it's the emotional impact that a company has on its
1:51
colleagues. But also on its customers.
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And it's really important that we don't look at empathy, just
1:59
internally or just empathy for clients.
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Because often what happens is, you know, if my son's
2:04
misbehaving at school, it's because there's a problem at
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home. So you can't have internal
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empathy without external empathy and vice versa.
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So that's how we Define it. Which is the emotional impact
2:16
that our company has on its colleagues and its customers and
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there's three different types of empathy, there's cognitive
2:24
empathy, which is about understanding some spective
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there is affective empathy, which is when you feel someone's
2:33
pain and then there's Behavior empathy.
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And this is about when empathy moved you to act and the second
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part of your question, which is about empathy in action.
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So, for me, Me, it's all about using empathy to act.
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It's very different to sympathy. So an example of empathy in
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action, you know, it's not me. You telling me something sad and
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you saying, Emma? That's really, really sad.
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It's me saying, okay, you've got an issue.
3:00
Let's sit down together. Let's work it through.
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I will support you, but ultimately the responsibility
3:06
and accountability is with you. So that's that's a really
3:10
important distinction and that did that lack of difference
3:14
between them Dorothy and sympathy is something I see all
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the time in companies. Hmm.
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Okay. What, why does empathy Master at
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work and why? Particularly now, there's been a
3:24
lot of talk about empathy and how has that gone from something
3:28
that people think about, kind of as an individual within their
3:32
own kind of personalized, how come that now has translated to
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the world of work and teams. Well, I think I'm busy matters
3:41
because we spend 50 years of our lives at work.
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So that's more time than we get to spend with our kids or
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families. So, I think, for a lot of people
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work should be a place of purpose of meaning, a place
3:57
where you feel like you have a voice, but the reality is that
4:02
most of us actually feel that work is not a place where we
4:07
feel that. So there's there's some new
4:10
studies done really where they, you know, there was a large
4:13
proportion of the UK Workforce who said they wouldn't wish
4:16
their work on their worst enemy. So yes for a lot of people and I
4:24
can send you the link so we can put the stats in the show, note
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in the podcast nodes, but for a lot of people work has never
4:31
been, you know, less exciting. And for me I feel that's really
4:35
sad. Given the amount of time we
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spend It that in terms of whether it's more important.
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Now more than ever, I think it's always been there, you know, if
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you look at, they've done lots of experiments with rats, you
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know, Even Rats will typically show each other empathy in times
4:54
of need. So empathy is an innate thing.
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But what's happened is with work in the pursuit of profit in the
5:02
in the way organizational design has been created is we've
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knocked out the empathy out of the workplace.
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And what I want to do is transform the workplace to bring
5:14
more empathy back into it, as it should be because that's the
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kind of effects of the pandemic covid influence this at all.
5:24
Well, it hasn't it hasn't, I mean during the pandemic people
5:28
were firefighting so actually I saw a reduction in companies
5:31
wanting to kind of look at empathy because everybody was
5:34
trying to survive. So, in that way, at the
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beginning, we saw we saw different types of empathy.
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I mean, it's interesting during the pandemic, we were working
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for a financial organization. One of Britain's largest banks.
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What we saw was they Empower people a lot more.
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So we saw it. Increase in empathy because
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people were empowered. So people, in branches, people
5:59
who are answering the phones, they were given a lot more
6:02
autonomy in it and agency. So in that respect and empathy
6:06
was becoming much more important.
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I think over during the pandemic though we saw that decrease with
6:13
everybody, you know, worrying and fear and uncertainty.
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It kind of makes us more cautious and more kind of go
6:20
into our own shelves. So I think we're seeing
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differing levels of empathy but I I feel now as we're coming out
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of the pandemic, it is definitely becoming a boardroom
6:30
topic and that's what I want to see.
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I want to see it as an agenda item on the board.
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I want to see it in the corporate Financial accounts and
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you know that there is a section on empathy for customers empathy
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for staff, interesting that you're mentioning a kind of
6:45
board room, sir, how seriously, organizations and teams all
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those concerned with creating effective teams.
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How seriously they taking empathy.
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So maybe it'd be helpful if you could tell us the kind of
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clients you have you already mentioned kind of National Bank,
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but could you give us an idea of how Corporate sir kind of
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viewing this now? Well, I think for a lot of
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Corporations, they want to be empathic, but they struggle
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with, oh, does that mean we're being nice?
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You know, is that we were going to lose money?
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And I think the way that the embassy business, my company
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comes in, is to say, look, they're not mutually exclusive.
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You could use lots of different tools and the theory is one lens
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that will help you ask a slightly different question and
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get to a slightly different answer and that slightly
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different answer. We've seen up, cleats uplifted,
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net promoter score, We've seen uplift in cash to the business
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by, you know, approximately 30%. So all we really doing is using
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empathy as a lens and as a tool to drive change in
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organizations, I think companies are more interested in empathy.
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I've definitely seen that. In terms of the new business, we
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get. I think the difficulty for many
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companies and leaders is. How, where do I start?
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You know. Yes, I know, I need to be
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empathic. It's a bit like, saying to you.
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I need to go to the gym. I know that but I'm too tired or
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I can't be bothered or I've got you know, loads of other things
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I've got to do and that's similar in an organization,
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there's another load of priorities.
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So I think the first thing is to really hold up the mirror.
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If you're thinking about being more empathic as a company,
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you've got to measure it. And the the 10,000 steps is a
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really good example because as soon as people started
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measuring, how many steps they did a day, they started
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thinking, I need to do More steps.
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So it's the same with the company empathy.
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You've got to hold up the mirror and we do that by measuring
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things like the percentage of time senior vs.
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Junior people speaking meetings, you don't want your senior
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people talking all the time because you're creating a
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culture of deference which is counter to a culture of
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innovation. Other metrics, you know,
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introverts, we want to hear everybody needs to have a voice.
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If you don't want that person to speak then they shouldn't be at
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the meeting if you're going to invite them to a meeting.
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I think they should speak and give them a voice.
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So, we measure the amount of time, introvert, speak, you
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know? We measure corporate politics,
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lots of different measures. But the first thing is, if you
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really want to stop thinking about this, you've got to sort
9:20
of measure empathy at the risk of asking an obvious question.
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What is the business case for upping?
9:28
The empathy and till at work? Yeah, I don't think that's an
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obvious question at all. I mean, as you mentioned, I ran
9:35
a study in the half. The business of you to actually
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answer that question, this was more than five years ago and
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what we found is that the more empathic companies they make
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more money whether you split it by, by growth by earnings and
9:50
productivity. And then catalyst have recently
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done some research will not will last year, actually, it's called
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The Power of empathy in times of Crisis and Beyond.
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And what they did is they gave us some of the stats that really
10:04
confirm the work that I did years.
10:07
Earlier. But what they saw was that there
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is a 76 percent of employees with highly, empathic leaders
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report being often or always being engaged compared to 32% of
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people with less empathic leaders.
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So, nearly double levels of Engagement burnout.
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When you look at burnout is much lower when you've got highly
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empathic leaders and diversity and this was the things we We've
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never seen such a link to diversity and had the route.
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We've always known that more empathic companies are more
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diverse, but what they found was a 22 to 58 percentage points
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difference between increased inclusion and belonging when
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somebody's manager is empathic. So more empathic companies not
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just make more money, they have higher levels of Engagement
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lower burnout, but they're more diverse So, I'm specifically
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thinking about leaders and managers of project teams and it
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sounds. And so if the leader or manager
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of a team like that is thinking about empathy is beginning to
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sort of delve into it quite seriously.
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What advice would you give to them about empathy and what if
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it doesn't come naturally to them as well?
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Well, I think we're all working progress.
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I mean, you know, I have very little empathy for my teenage
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kids, some of the time because they just want bacon sandwiches
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and money from me. So I struggling showing them
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empathy, you know, I don't think no one's empathetic, even the
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Dalai Lama is not a thetic all the time.
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Work in progress and I think that's really important.
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This, the other thing is, you know, we have to create the
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conditions for empathy because you can't Expect people to show
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empathy if you don't even talk about it, you don't reward it.
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So, we just done a project for an energy company in South
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Africa and we changed all the operation.
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So we piloted empathy across two teams and compared that to the
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performance, in the rest of the organization, we change the way
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we were awarded them. They had an empathy recognition
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fund, which was a really small thing where you could buy.
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If you showed me empathy today or, you know, we got a client
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for a specific, you know. Project.
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I could use the empathy fund, and buy you lunch or a cup of
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coffee. Really small things.
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So, one we put in the measurement and reward
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structure. Secondly, we did empathy
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training to get the difference between empathy and sympathy.
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Thirdly, we kind of held up the mirror.
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So this was about empathy in operations, but you can do this
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with empathy and projects. How you write, how you manage
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the clients? You're, there were so many ways.
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So I think showing people what great empathy looks like
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showing. In people, what an empathy
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deficit looks like, it might be in the process, it might be in
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the way. You write an email, whatever.
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But if you're leading a project team, really identifying this is
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great, empathy. This is not and making it a
13:18
regular part of your conversation and that's really,
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really key. It's not a tick box exercise.
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It takes time, it takes the involvement of people, and
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you've got to really show people what great empathy looks like.
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And that could be something. So tiny, as the way someone's
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written. An email, the way a meeting is
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conducted. You know, the way a project is
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delivered, could I give you scenario?
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So I have a better idea of what it's like in practice.
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So say you have a team meeting, a project team meeting.
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And one of the more junior members on the team, raises
13:52
their hand and points out, something they're concerned
13:55
about on the project, which actually is the kind of a brave
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thing to do. As a team manager team leader,
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what would be the empathetic way to respond to that?
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What would be the way not to do it?
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Well, I think there's there's the way to respond to it.
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There's also wait the way to raise that issue as well, so I
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think empathy comes not just from the team managers.
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It's also the people everybody. Empathy is everybody's
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responsibility, so one if you're giving that feedback, it's
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really to be say, look, I really State your intention.
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So I'm Um, about the person giving the criticism or the
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concern. So one in terms of how you would
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do, that one is to State your intention.
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I really want this project to go.
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Well, I really believe in this project.
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The issue I've got my concern is about X and what I really want
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to do is use this forum so that we can explore ways to resolve
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it. Okay?
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So that's how I might give the feedback.
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It always has to be with this positive intention.
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This is what I'm trying to do, okay?
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The other thing is it the right Forum?
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I don't know the situation but if it's team meeting that sounds
15:04
like it is the right Forum, the weight of respond to that is to
15:08
say, okay look right. What I want to do is I want to
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break down that. I want to know a little bit
15:14
more. So let's further.
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Understand if you've got a concern, is it around the
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relationships? In terms of the team?
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Composition is it about how we'd if we can deliver on time.
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So really drilling down asking some brilliant questions, that
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would be my first First reaction is to ask him really questions
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because the problem with a lot of conflict is that it all gets
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bundled up and it all gets into, oh, you know, you just don't
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like each other or you just don't care about the client or
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whatever it is. You just don't think it's get,
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you know, it all gets lumped into a very simplistic thing.
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So as a really good empathic conversation, I would start
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drilling down and finding out what the issue is.
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And then going back to the accountability issue is not
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true. To solve it.
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You're the team manager but your job is not to solve the
16:03
problems. Your job is give to give people
16:06
the space and the support to solve them themselves.
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So don't solve it, don't fix it. And that is the biggest thing as
16:14
well that we all do. We want to fix it, especially
16:16
me. I mean, what you just said was a
16:19
revelation to me because I thought of the manager is a
16:22
person who needed to be focusing on the empathy.
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But actually, like you say, it's every person on that team who
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has to have an empathetic kind of mindset.
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How do you go about creating a culture?
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Then that it expects empathy. So one I think is start small,
16:43
so take a team, take a team, if it's a project management team,
16:47
so you might For example, say right.
16:49
We're going to try. We're going to try five empathy
16:52
nudges in the way we respond to the client, the way we kind of
16:56
speak to each other. We're going to put it on our
16:57
team meeting, you know, create five or ten, empathy nudges.
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So, start small is the first thing, what were these empathy
17:04
nachos you're talking about. So an empathy nudge is just a
17:08
small shift that you're going to make.
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You've made a commitment. It might be right.
17:13
I'm going to change the way we speak to clients in a more
17:17
empathic toe. It might be the way we run
17:20
internal meetings or it might be the way we give feedback to each
17:23
other to use your earlier example.
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So you say what you sit down, you sailor, empathy is important
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to this team, what are 10 things we should experiment with our
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empathy nudges that we think are quite easy to do not going to
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cost any of us money but actually we want to try to come
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up with your five or 10 and 15 judges.
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Number one, keep them small height low-cost.
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High-impact the second thing is then stop measuring that
17:47
progress. So we always like then you know
17:50
if you've got a client evaluation so with project do
17:54
you get you know when you're when you're writing the beard or
17:56
however you assess these things, you might add an empathy
17:59
evaluation questioning so that you start measuring it or
18:02
getting feedback from the client or internally about how you
18:06
doing. So to put in some kind of
18:08
measurement. And I think the third thing is
18:10
to start with tangible things, it might be the way you write a
18:14
bid, it might be the way that the website is, you know, very
18:17
talented. Jubal we often start with
18:19
language to part of what we do is rewrite, a lot of
18:22
communications for clients for one Energy company.
18:26
We're about a hundred letters, you know.
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So what we'll do is, we'll start in a very tangible area so that
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people can start to get empathy and think, oh, it's not, it's
18:34
not just about us, it's not just about us having a team Hagen,
18:38
you know, or bringing bring your dog to the zoom call.
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It's much more than that. So, the third thing is really
18:45
make it tangible. So those are things I would do
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and do it collaboratively. It's very difficult to change.
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If you're a team manager, if you're someone, it doesn't
18:53
matter what level you are saying.
18:55
Look, do you do we care about this?
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Should we make this a focus in 2023?
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Should we have an empathy kickoff meeting?
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And should we make this a reality?
19:08
Brilliant. Thank you one.
19:10
Follow-up question from that, that intrigued me is about the
19:13
use of language. So when you're rewriting
19:15
corporate materials, can you give an example of language that
19:20
is not empathetic and what that would be changed to.
19:24
Yes, so the example that I shared at the conference was the
19:29
work we did with the UK government around the covid
19:32
communications. You know, it was very much the
19:35
fear-based if you remember the original Calms.
19:38
It was look him in the eyes. Tell him.
19:41
You always keep a safe distance. Very scary imagery.
19:45
And what we did is we said actually number one, you've got
19:47
to recognize that what people are doing.
19:50
Number two, you've got to articulate the why, why are we
19:53
doing this and thirdly, you've got to say what they're doing to
19:56
make a difference. So the change Communications
19:59
were, you know, every foggy lens is making a difference.
20:02
This was all about, you know, wearing a mask and your eyes,
20:05
you know, your glass is steamed up.
20:08
So it's again, people just want to know that they're making a
20:11
difference, they want to connect back to their, why even, you
20:16
know, Disney Disney, don't call their receptionist receptionist,
20:19
they call them director of impressions of First Impressions
20:24
and I love that because it might be changing the job titles.
20:27
That could be a really good, you know, thing.
20:30
So lots of things we've done about language, but I think
20:34
language is the most one of the most important.
20:38
Potent tools, we have and it's really underutilized dehumanized
20:43
in in every industry, not just your industry.
20:48
My final question would be, what are the individual skills are
20:52
qualities that you can work on to be better at being
20:56
empathetic? So, one thing that's striking
20:59
me, is must be the power of being able to listen well.
21:03
So that people feel listened to is am I right in thinking that
21:08
and what would be the other things that you could work on.
21:12
So, I think absolutely. I mean, you can't really have
21:16
empathy, if you don't Listen and you just want to tell the other
21:20
person, you know what you think, but I think those are the
21:23
differences between listening and agreeing.
21:26
Don't have to agree with someone that the empathy is in the
21:30
listening. I might not agree with you.
21:33
You may say something. I do not agree with you, but
21:35
I've listened to you and you feel her.
21:37
Do you feel visible and you feel that I've taken the time to
21:41
listen to you? That's not the same thing.
21:44
So I think this thing is key but I actually think what we need
21:47
Each right now is team managers and leaders who can who can
21:51
lean, you know, really Embrace difficult conversations because
21:55
where empathy is key is when you're having a difficult
22:00
conversation and that's where you can really start to
22:03
practice. So, if you know, there's a
22:06
difficult conversation, you've got to have think about it,
22:10
think about how you're going to you, how you how you're going to
22:13
State the positive intention, how you're going to not
22:15
sugarcoat but say The facts how you're going to use emotional
22:19
labeling, some of the things I talked about the conference, but
22:22
there's kind of ten steps to having a difficult conversation.
22:26
You have to practice these things.
22:28
And for me, what I've seen with the best managers, it's not how
22:32
much empathy they've got is how reflective how self-reflective
22:36
and self-aware. They are.
22:38
That makes the biggest progress and that's what we're looking
22:41
for. Here is progress, not
22:42
perfection. Okay.
22:45
Thanks Belinda. Was there anything any last
22:47
pieces of advice? You'd like to pass on to people
22:50
in projects? A piece of advice, would be.
22:54
We all work in progress. You know sometimes you're going
22:57
to get it right? If you slept well or you feel
23:00
good about yourself or you just naturally like the person, you
23:03
know, that's going to be easy for you.
23:05
But the challenge is really when things are not going well and
23:08
making sure that you have those difficult conversations.
23:12
I think that's really important right now because You know, it's
23:15
really difficult for so many people cost-of-living crisis,
23:19
divisive political situation, it's very difficult.
23:24
So kind of asking people, do they feel heard and if you feel
23:28
that I've listened to you or how could I listen to you better,
23:32
you know, making making it really easy and giving people a
23:36
space where they can tell you, whether you've been empathetic
23:39
or how they want to be more empathic, I think that's really
23:43
really important. Okay, thanks Belinda.
23:46
I want to thank you for your time again, but also to ask if
23:49
people want to find out more about you and your work, where
23:52
should they go? Well they we have a website, the
23:55
empathy business.com or you can reach out to me, Belinda at the
23:59
empathy business.com. I met and I was lucky enough to
24:02
meet quite a few of you at the conference.
24:04
I thought you are an amazing industry.
24:06
Amazing group of people. So, yeah.
24:08
I'd love to stay in touch. Okay, thanks so much.
24:12
Thank you again. All right, take care.
24:19
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24:22
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