Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / THE PANEL: Elon, Vapes & Lyin' Politicians

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THE PANEL: Elon, Vapes & Lyin' Politicians · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

• 0:00
  G'day humans welcome to The Safe Space for Dangerous Ideas. It is time today for the Friday
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  panel. We're two of Australia's most captivating minds, gently hand-fluck, a bespoke
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  selection of the week's most scintillating stories, like a pair of exotic birds,
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  gently regurgitate those stories into your and my grateful earholes. We're just today,
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  Jesse Stevens and Sarah Wilson. Hello Jesse, here at Pillow Sarah. Hi. Hi. It's the first time
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  we're trying this. Do you like the set? If you're not watching this on YouTube, you should go
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  and check it out on YouTube, because there's a very pretty set. And a couple of very pretty ladies
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  might I add. That's a good way to get started. Isn't that nice? A couple of broads.
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  A couple of sexy birds, didn't we? Yes. A couple of sexy things. No, the birds is just,
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  that's just I always say that even if it's a guy. If this is on YouTube, it's like Sarah and Jesse
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  call out sexism in capital letters and then you're looking at expression. Yeah. That'll work well
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  for the audio content and sharp expression. First story, a judge in Delaware has voided Elon Musk's
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  payout. He was supposed to get $55 billion and it's the boss of Tesla, US. Yes, thank you for adding
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  that. Not talking in Italian. So the shareholders, I don't know, but this
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  goes quite a long way back. This is not like he's just given this to himself. He put this in
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  years ago saying that if Tesla's performance exceeds XYZ metrics or XYZ for our American
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  listeners, I'm always inclusive, then he's going to get so much compensation. So the wild
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  compensation is a result of the wild overperformance of Tesla. Is it fair for that to be clawed back
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  from him because it's now what the judge calls an excessive amount? Well, I mean, the background to
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  that is that I think shareholders have kicked up a stink and have flagged that the the board of
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  directors who are I think they've got a bit of a reputation for being yes men, predominantly yes men.
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  Yes, birds. Yes, I think maybe a couple of years. One, two, yeah. I think they're claiming
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  that the process was not a proper process and in fact Elon just kind of dumped and not on them
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  and they were, it was beholden upon them to to pass it through such as Elon's general way of
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  doing things. Right, but isn't if you're like the creator of everything, don't you get to do that?
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  Is he though? I mean, this is the story he puts out there. There's always that counter argument
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  as well that I think a lot of commentators are speaking to now as we're all starting to go,
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  is that you're all right? Is that the government subsidies would Tesla be there? Would space
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  X exist if he hadn't got all those government subsidies? There's a whole bunch of things that
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  people are starting to question. Well, I mean, he just because the government, I mean, of course the
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  government subsidises space travel, like the government needs to sell lots of things into space.
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  So, but that if you flip the question and say would someone else have been doing space X
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  if the government subsidies existed but Elon Musk did not? Yeah, I don't think it necessarily
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  would. I think you do need, I think he is the indispensable figure in all of this. The government
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  government money will come and government money will go, but there's only one person who has
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  created like three world changing companies. Yeah, but I think that this was a little bit
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  manipulative is what they're saying that it was almost like Elon Musk was negotiating with
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  Elon Musk over this. That's just a Elon Musk created everything. Yeah, but I don't mind going
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  through billionaires, like going through Australia's rich list and going too much. Yeah, you have
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  too much. Pointless. And I think this is the point. I'm a bit of a, um, communist social
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  socialist terrorist comes to tearing down or very much regardsly questioning billionaires.
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  And especially off the back of I think out of Davos, the latest Oxford report that they generally
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  put out at the same time said that the five top billionaires doubled their wealth since 2020
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  while the bottom, the bottom five billion, the rest of us pretty much have gone massively backwards.
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  And I think the concern. Wait, is that true? We haven't gone backwards. Five billion people have,
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  we're not in that five billion, we're in the top. Well, what measurement are we going backwards,
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  though? In terms of poverty, we're talking numbers, real numbers, not even percentages. So this
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  is a world to start true. Oh, dig it up for you. I just heard about it on my sub stack the other
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  week. Did you? Yeah, I got to be true then. So is there a Wilson sub stack? Do do do do do do do do do do do
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  week? Was it in the years last week? It was like hundreds of millions of people have been lifted
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  out of poverty in the past 20 years. Do we want to go down that Stephen Pinker Bill Gates discussion?
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  You do right now? Sure. All right. Um, can I finish my point first? I was the original one. So
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  one of the concerns related, the concern I have. And I think this is the debate that we need to be
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  having around this is much broader. We're living in the world where the experts are saying that
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  the massive unrest, which is just, you know, simmering at the moment. So the polarization
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  or this kind of thing can very much be point, we can point to larger and larger gaps in equality.
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  That is the thing that's going to trigger. And it's also the thing that's going to exacerbate
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  the kind of collapse, the decline unrest that I think everybody is very concerned about at the
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  moment. The anger and the discontent that exists within workplaces even that you've got a CEO
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  that's earning a thousand times, 600 times, whatever it is, more than their worker and then
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  there are all these stats that come out that it would take you five lifetimes to earn what you
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  see, oh, ends in a year or whatever. And that's getting larger and larger. And as someone, I mean,
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  I didn't grow up. My family's not business people. I didn't, didn't, didn't grow up
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  understanding it. But I look at CEOs and go, okay, but you're taking a risk, right? You're,
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  and you're going to wear the risk. But then COVID happened. And it was a CEO that went under.
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  Like if you look at a lot of the statistics, it's like they actually stayed very well afloat.
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  And so you go, are you actually wearing the risks here? And Elon Musk, I just think in this case,
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  you go, there's an issue with the system. It's an astronomical unfathomable amount of money
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  for anyone to make. And I understand why they're doing it because they're thinking, Elon Musk's
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  time is divided at the moment. Like he's got all these projects. Yeah. I mean, let me be the
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  capitalist and also the anti-capitalist at the same time by saying, I think it's true that
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  inequality is too high. And there are like official measures of this, the genie coefficient,
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  which measures like overall inequality is getting to almost like Latin American levels in the
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  United States and the UK. And global, the global genie coefficient is overall. Yes. The most
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  it's ever been. I think you might be getting that confused with the poor people actually getting
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  poorer because everyone's getting richer. It's just that the richer getting richer at a faster pace
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  than the poor are getting richer. Well, according to Oxfam, no. But I will, you can put it in the
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  most probably. I mean, they were probably part of the October 7th terror to tax as well at Oxfam.
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  Probably. So the inequality is bad. Lots of people just enjoy their privilege of going to
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  private schools and going into finance and getting high paid jobs. And they should be taxed more.
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  And life should be easier for poor people and for the working poor. I don't see that as similar
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  as in any way part of the conversation about Elon Musk. Elon Musk is a once in a generation
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  freak like he is a quasi autistic like asshole boy genius who just because he's becoming a nasty
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  like bitter Twitter troll does not detract from the fact that with a Messiah complex is not to
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  track from the fact that he has revolutionized our approach to climate change by making electric cars
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  cool. He's revolutionized, you know, the automotive industry is revolutionized space travel. He is
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  an extremely influential person. I think if you're one of those people, if you're a Thomas Edison
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  or Steve Jobs or an Elon Musk, yeah, you get to just say I'm going to take $55 billion of the value
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  that I have produced. The value that the $55 billion that would not exist and much, much more.
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  He's been financially accomplished. He's a rich businessman in the world already. He's worth
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  $210 billion. It's like to have this clearly like the state is sort of going, this isn't sustainable,
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  this doesn't make sense. Even when you look at the numbers, it didn't entirely make sense that he's
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  written it in that he'll earn this amount and blood. Like they've clearly looked at it and gone,
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  this isn't make sense. I mean why don't you keep all of it? Why don't you why stop at $55 billion?
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  It's huge. It wouldn't exist without him. That end, I think there are broader discussions that we
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  can have and shareholders can go to the court. Was it Spring Court? No, it was a Delaware.
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  Well, it was a Delaware because that's where his business is incorporated. Delaware is,
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  if you look at the incorporate where almost all the big companies are incorporated in the United
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  States, it's Delaware because it's supposed to have very friendly. It's supposed to be a very
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  pro company state. Obviously it's not so pro company that is willing to go along with it and
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  be tweeted out saying I would advise anyone who's incorporating a company in the United States not
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  to go to Delaware, but that's just sour grapes. Yeah, I look boo-hoo. I mean maybe that's my
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  the best answer. I can give boo-hoo in terms of Elon, but I think that I see it signifying
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  a great thing that people are actually pushing back against this rampant runaway wealth.
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  It is we're all suckling at the Elon Teet and someday that cow's going to dry up,
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  but you're not going to be left with no more electric cars. Well, while he's pissing off
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  to Mars, right? The rest of us will be kind of, I don't know, going back to his farm. Save, save,
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  by his peers attempts to battle climate change, as opposed. Look, the second story today is
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  the biggest trade in news, but it has ramifications for people all over the rest of the world as well,
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  which is that these tax cuts, which the previous Conservative government had promised,
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  which would you to be phased in over a period of stages with the biggest tax cuts for the
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  top end of town kicking in in stage three, which was due to drop next year. The incoming,
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  the Labor government, the centre-left government, which had just we don't need to see that video
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  anymore if we're still on it. The centre-left government came into power by before the election
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  they were like, don't worry, we're going to keep all of these tax cuts. If you're a super
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  wealthy and you're worried about us going full socialist on you, you're going to be able to keep
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  all of your tax cuts. We thought they've seen it around and they've gotten rid of the stage three
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  tax cuts anyway, which raises the question, should politicians do what they think is right,
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  or should they do what they promised to do, Jesse? I think they should do what they think is right.
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  And I want a government that looks at the evidence, looks at the current climate, looks at the
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  current issues that they're being presented with and pivots, because I've looked closely at these
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  and gone, yeah, they make sense. I think it's something like 90% of us are going to be better off,
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  so the coalition is clearly going to go down the line of lies, lies, lies, because that's the best
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  kind of political angle they've got. But I think it's going to be difficult to turn people on this
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  when they look closely at what has actually been done. I love your faith that people
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  look closely at the news. When the average vote actually starts reading the 923 page document
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  that the government has put out, they will then come around. But I think the later party is in a
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  good position because it is actually a good news story. So I think Julia Gillard, there's also John
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  Howard that got hauled over the coals for going back on a promise, an election promise,
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  they, their pivot was to something that were put Australians, most Australians in a
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  a worth of position. So this one is a good news story. Where were they broken promises?
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  One was the GFT and then what was Julia Gillard? Wait, that was a broken promise.
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  GFT wasn't broken promise, because he took a tour. Yeah, no, both the hang on, John Howard didn't,
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  and now I say I'm really conservative in Capitalism. John Howard, who was Australia's second
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  longest servant prime minister and a conservative icon, he didn't break a promise. He went to an
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  election saying that if he wins the election, there'd never be a GST. No, so he had said they
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  will never be a goods and services tax in Australia. And then he said, he is later, let's do this,
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  there should be a goods and services tax. He said it before an election. He said, so vote
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  us in and we'll do it. To me, that's different, because then you're not lying. You are going,
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  you are changing your mind about something, but you're not voicing it on the people after having
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  been elected. I think he thought it was a long promise as well. Yeah, that was over that line as well.
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  But I mean, I think the thing is, I'm with Jess on this. I want a government that actually does
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  adjust and is agile and moves with where they want to go. And circumstances have certainly changed.
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  I think there's also, I'm sure you would have come across that work that was written a decade or
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  so ago called On Bullshit by Henry Frankfurt. I think it is an American philosopher, but he makes
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  that distinction between line and bullshitting. I love who there was a philosopher who literally
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  wrote a book called On Bullshit. Yeah, exactly, literally. To talk the title, I'm sure we all would
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  like to have on our own. So line is very different to bullshitting. Line is something where you've
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  got an awareness of the truth and you're doing something that the end of contravening. Bullshitting
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  is showing a disregard for the truth. So I don't think in this case, you know, at the
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  Albanese, you went into the election thinking that I don't really care whether I keep this promise
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  or not. You know, and I think this is where I think all right. Wait, so are you saying he was
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  bullshitting or lying? I think it's the type of lie that's not bullshitting, if you're not
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  I mean, a bullshit lie is the kind that I think many Australians really rile up against.
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  Is that when they feel and seriously about this in the first place? Like they feel manipulators
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  sort of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think he did that. I think you're right. Yeah, I think that
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  this is just a new set of an exceptional set of circumstances. Wait, I don't think for a second
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  that he thought that he was going to keep the promise keep the promise. I think he knew that he
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  was you think he did it just to get I think everybody except extremely ideological conservatives
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  and very rich people knew that the stage three tax cuts were a joke giving that much money to
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  to the super rich. That like they were a way to smuggle it that the tax stage one and two,
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  which were the tax cuts for you from normally income earners that those were a way of opening
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  the door to the post-poned tax cuts that were quite beyond the pale and there's no way that
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  led us in a left party would have wanted to go along with that and they probably knew that at
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  some stage if they could and if the political circumstances were right that they would reverse that.
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  How do you think it's going to fare for them? Like because calling a politician liar is like the
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  oldest, you know, I mean, yeah, it's a good question. Yeah, did I just turn seniors? Yeah,
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  they'll sustain for the question. Um, I don't know whether or not people care about that.
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  I haven't got a leg to stand up because the oppositional leader they consider it. Yeah, sorry,
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  I'm sorry. We've got a lot of Americans. Yeah. So, so he'll get shouty because that's all he
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  does is get really, really shouty. Um, and it's going to be, it's going to be two stories to tell.
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  If they're a late party, get it right. They, they don't try to explain to stage three tax cuts
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  to the Australian people. They just go, you're going to be better off, right? It's changed. We
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  want to make sure you're not left out. We want everybody to move ahead. And there are still some,
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  some tax cuts, right? They're not developing all of them. If they're just skewing it more towards
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  the lower end of time. Yeah, yeah, lower the middle income earners don't fare as badly.
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  Is, is I guess how you could say it? Dutton, however, all he can do is go lies, lies, lies,
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  and I think we're a little bit sick of it. The flip side also is if he gets into power, how's
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  he going to reverse that? So if I was a later party and if I were journalists, I'd be pinning down
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  to make sure you're promised that he's not going to reverse it or he will reverse it.
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  In which case, that's very unpopular. That's very unpopular. That's right. So, right. Yeah,
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  I see what you're saying. Because if you were just going to bring in the stage three tax cuts
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  as a standalone policy, everyone will hate them. Yeah. They were only palatable because they were
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  tied to more reasonable tax cuts for everybody in stage one and two. We've already gotten those
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  tax cuts. So to go into an election promising to bring in stage three, yeah, would look pretty
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  kind of tough. Unless he can peg it to Labor is ruining a insert barbecue, you know, weekend or
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  something. There's something that the live jet brigade. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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  No, I mean, I and Jesse, the oil question of like, will it damage? I mean, I've read a lot.
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  Like Mohat Peter Van Oncel was writing in the, he was a political, you know,
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  analyst and economics writer and he was writing in the Australian saying, this isn't,
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  this is going to be hugely damaging to Anthony Albanese because they're not going to be able to
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  make any promises before the next election that anyone will take seriously. So all of the boogie
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  men that the conservative opposition party likes to scare people with about what will happen if the
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  if the left retains control, then become more plausible. Like they might get rid of negative
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  gearing, which is this, you know, property tax raging that we have in Australia that benefits
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  the wealthy or they might, you know, I don't know, whatever it is. But and none of their insistences
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  that they're not going to do those things will count as much as they would have had they start
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  by the stage three tax cuts. Yeah. I guess, I mean, and again, that depends on how much the average
• 18:19
  Australian pays attention to the new story. If they just have to be repeatedly pointed out though,
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  doesn't that by the opposition? Yes. They lied about this so you can't trust them about that.
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  Yes. But I think that if it's clarified that if stage, it depends on what the
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  shorthand of stage three tax cuts ends up meaning. If it's synonymous with lie or if it's synonymous
• 18:40
  with better living standards, or better, you know, the situation for the average Australian,
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  and it depends on who wins and I think it's a communication telling. Yeah. And there's an
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  opportunity here, I think, to actually tell quite a good story. I think, you know, you're a father of
• 18:54
  two young kids, like you can explain to a child. All right. Mummy and Daddy said that they would
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  never divorce. However, situations. What do you have even done on my part? What should I know?
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  But kids can follow that, right? I mean, life is full of adults, well-meaning adults,
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  even if they're caught up in the politics of the time, making promises and then things change
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  and you have to explain it. Why don't they not make an effort in your role? Why don't they have
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  the cajonas to just go, you know what? It's a bad policy. We'll see how we go. Yeah, look, I
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  would love that too. I would like it. You know, Albanese could have stood up there and said,
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  personally, those tax cuts offend me. If we're up to me, I wouldn't, I would never have conceived
• 19:36
  of that policy. At the moment, you know, let's not worry about that. It's a couple of years down
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  the track. I suppose then they would just say, they'll run a whole scare campaign about how your
• 19:46
  taxes are going to go up on the labour. Exactly. Or, you know, stay in the same amount. I mean,
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  this is a topic that comes up constantly. American friends would well be well aware of this
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  in their own country. I mean, you're damned if you do. You're damned if you don't. And the
• 20:00
  polarisation and the screaming and yelling and shoutiness, it is exceedingly difficult. I agree
• 20:07
  that I think we are moving into an era where some really fair income honesty and really good
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  storytelling could actually shift things. And at the Albanese, it could have done that pre-election,
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  I agree. But it was so touch and go as to whether he would get in. And so, you know, desperate times
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  caused, call for those horrible, you know, futile juvenile kind of statements. But yeah, now that he's
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  empowers and, you know, he's probably in a position where he can actually tell a nice,
• 20:41
  a good story around it that speaks to maturity, that we're all wanting to be treated. We're all
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  wanting to rise to a more mature way of going about things instead of being dragged back into
• 20:52
  this fragmentation and bifurcation, which it's just horrible to observe. It really is horrible. It's
• 20:59
  the second kind of war that's going on. There's the other battles that are going out there on
• 21:03
  in the world, in politics and in the Middle East and so on. And then there's the fact that we're
• 21:08
  not handling things war, you know, and yeah, so maybe just in I might be idealist.
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  It comes back to the bullshit thing as well, because once people feel like there's no one to trust,
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  the response can be this kind of nihilism to watch truth and war. And like the greatest avatar of
• 21:28
  the bullshit phenomenon is Donald Trump, and where, you know, where it's, yeah, exactly,
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  they don't lie in order to get you to believe the lie. They lie in order to corrode the idea
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  that lots of truth at all. And you know, that anyone, it's sort of like he won by saying,
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  I'm going to lie to you, but I'll lie directly to your face and you'll know that I'm lying.
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  Instead of being a sneaky, sniveling, Hillary Clinton type liar who, you know, who's in bed with
• 21:56
  lobbyists and, you know, they're working today. Well, code for also sitting around large conference
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  rooms, committees, dealing with multitude of opinions and interest groups to come up with a
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  decision that is invariably watered down and compromised. I mean, yes, that's how politics works.
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  Trump sidesteps that. Exactly. And then gets nothing done.
• 22:15
  That's a result. There's a new ad campaign in Australia against vaping, big crackdowns on vaping
• 22:20
  in Australia. It's now illegal to buy or sell nicotine. First country in the world, isn't it? Unless
• 22:27
  you get, is it? I felt like the New Zealanders or some other columnists would have acted
• 22:32
  authoritarian. We expect that this when it comes to security type things. We are the nanny state.
• 22:38
  We are the ultimate nanny state. This one I agree with, though. I've got to say, if you're driving
• 22:43
  along more park road, 40 kilometers an hour with the speed cameras snapping at you and you're
• 22:49
  vaping with a nicotine fate, then do you go to jail forever? Or do you get headed if you get caught?
• 22:55
  Oh, wow. Great point. I think we also need to give some context here as to what more park road is.
• 23:03
  It's a road where the speed limit is too slow. It's like a safe lane freeway where the speed limit
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  is literally 25 miles an hour or 40 kilometers an hour. It's a bloody sport. It's right next
• 23:18
  to the stadium. So once every three months, they're drunk. And that's a great revenue raise.
• 23:23
  Football fans staggering across the road. Make it 40 kilometers an hour once a month.
• 23:28
  Well, there's police there at all times. Anyway, back to the vaping. So it's illegal. So you need
• 23:32
  to go to your doctor and get a prescription now and you're going to be able to go to the pharmacy
• 23:37
  and get a script for a nicotine vape if you're a smoker. Apart from that, not supposed to do anything.
• 23:43
  We've got these ad campaign to open with young people about how surprisingly addictive vaping
• 23:48
  was and how they couldn't stop and everything. Is that okay? What about? I think it has to be.
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  I think it's like a desperate time calls for desperate measures. Like the fact my mates who are vaping
• 23:59
  were never cigarette smokers. Why don't you start doing it? Because it doesn't stink.
• 24:04
  It does stink. It also smells like jewelry. Yes, but it doesn't have that. I think that what we did
• 24:10
  so incredibly well stink. Yes, exactly right. And what we did so well in Australia was make it ugly
• 24:17
  to be on the side of the street with a cigarette became synonymous with it was almost a working class
• 24:23
  thing. It was almost worse than working class. The way it smells, the way it looks, it just it became
• 24:30
  so uncool that then what happened with the vapes is that they came in. They didn't stink. They
• 24:35
  were kind of cool because people would go, well, what's that? This is even just five years ago.
• 24:40
  And I've got mates who again would never pick up a cigarette, but you're sitting there having
• 24:44
  brunch with them and they can't sit at a table for 20 minutes because they've got to run over and
• 24:49
  start sucking on the van. And all they just do suck on the vape anywhere everywhere.
• 24:54
  Yeah, right. And with the exception, with positive difference in aeroplane, I've seen people vape
• 24:58
  everywhere. Yeah. Like everywhere. Well, the aeroplane thing, I was at the airport recently and I
• 25:04
  got pulled over by security. I was pregnant and my bump went off in the thing and I had to go
• 25:08
  and get put down with all the anyway. Wait, your embryo. Yes, it must have had some mentally
• 25:13
  and I got pulled into a room and the woman was a bit shuddy because we're waiting and she said,
• 25:16
  you're not pulling into a room. Yeah, I have to be touched up. I really don't think I run.
• 25:21
  Yeah, that's right. Exactly. What are they going to go on?
• 25:25
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