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Heart-Led Marketing Magic with Rachel Allen · The Heart-Led Business Show

• 0:01
  Speaker: Welcome to The Heart-Led Business Show, where compassion meets commerce and leaders lead with love.
• 0:09
  Speaker: Join your host, Tom Jackobs, as he delves into the insightful conversations with visionary business leaders who defy the status quo, putting humanity first and profit second.
• 0:20
  Speaker: From heartfelt strategies to inspiring stories, this podcast is your compass in the world of conscious capitalism.
• 0:29
  Speaker: So buckle up and let your heart guide your business journey.
• 0:36
  Tom Jackobs: Welcome to the Heart-Led Business Show, where we dive deep into the art of authentic entrepreneurship.
• 0:42
  Tom Jackobs: Today, we're thrilled to introduce the marvelous Rachel Allen, a marketing maven with a knack for combining data-driven decisions with a dash of human heart.
• 0:54
  Tom Jackobs: With 16 years of experience and a client list that reads like a global address book, Rachel has mastered the magic of meaningful marketing.
• 1:02
  Tom Jackobs: Join us as she shares her treasure trove of tips and tales from the thrilling world of heart-led businesses.
• 1:08
  Tom Jackobs: Rachel, welcome to the show!
• 1:10
  Rachel Allen: Oh, thank you so much.
• 1:11
  Rachel Allen: I'm so excited to be here!
• 1:12
  Tom Jackobs: I'm really excited to, to talk to you today as well because I love having other marketing, folks on, especially when it's from the heart.
• 1:21
  Tom Jackobs: So I'm really excited to get your journey and how your heart-led business is providing a great service for people.
• 1:28
  Tom Jackobs: So I can't wait to dive into that.
• 1:30
  Tom Jackobs: But of course, the first question I always like to ask is, what's your definition of a heart-led business?
• 1:35
  Rachel Allen: "I think the logical definition is a business where you make decisions based on your values.
• 1:41
  Rachel Allen: But as I was thinking about this question, I kept coming back to this feeling that I get in the middle of my chest whenever I'm making a decision or thinking about how I wanna work with a client, and it feels like it's literally coming from my physical heart and I've learned to follow that, of just like,"Oh, this way?
• 1:56
  Rachel Allen: Mm.
• 1:56
  Rachel Allen: Nope, nope, nope.
• 1:57
  Rachel Allen: That way," And so for me, it's a very intuitive thing, and I do think that manifests as decision-making from your values and leading with humanity and all of that, but it's just a very physical experience for me
• 2:09
  Tom Jackobs: That's really interesting.
• 2:09
  Tom Jackobs: I have not heard that before, but it totally makes sense that, that you can get that physical feeling as well when things are going right.
• 2:17
  Tom Jackobs: And, you know, we definitely get...
• 2:19
  Tom Jackobs: like, I get gut feelings sometimes when I know something's not aligned.
• 2:22
  Rachel Allen: Totally.
• 2:23
  Tom Jackobs: So that totally makes sense.
• 2:25
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 2:26
  Rachel Allen: Yeah, I've described it before as almost feeling like there's a little magnet right, over my, sternum here, and it kind of is like, oop, that way, you know?
• 2:33
  Rachel Allen: And, I've learned to ignore it at my peril.
• 2:36
  Tom Jackobs: Oh, yes.
• 2:37
  Tom Jackobs: And we can definitely dive into some of those stories as well.
• 2:40
  Tom Jackobs: I'm sure they're good, cautionary tales to, other people.
• 2:45
  Tom Jackobs: So but first, let's dive into your business and how you transitioned into having a heart-led
• 2:50
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 2:51
  Rachel Allen: Uh, well, I'm a marketing strategist, but what that really means is I make words make money and I solve problems for people.
• 2:56
  Rachel Allen: So people bring me in when like they wanna sell something and it's not selling but they don't know why or they're like,"Oh, I have this incredible idea but I can't get anybody else to understand what it is or why they want it," and I'm like,"I'm on it." So, um, I come in and I do that and I do it from this very like human-focused perspective which is why I wanted to talk to you about this'cause I know you do as well.
• 3:19
  Rachel Allen: I think so much of marketing is like predicated on an adversarial relationship between the seller and the client and that's nobody's best interest, you know?
• 3:28
  Rachel Allen: But it works so much better when you can see it as this very human-centered, heart-led relationship of like,"Hey, I have this thing and I really truly believe it can help you.
• 3:39
  Rachel Allen: Is that of use to you?" And like that's a totally different tone to go into the interaction with
• 3:44
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 3:44
  Tom Jackobs: absolutely.
• 3:45
  Tom Jackobs: and especially when you're thinking about...
• 3:48
  Tom Jackobs: Like when, when I go into a sales situation, I always think about what's best for that other person, and if I can even serve them, how would I serve them to their best interest.
• 4:00
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 4:00
  Tom Jackobs: and marketing kind of follows that same, same kind of principle as well.
• 4:04
  Tom Jackobs: So the natural question is, like, how did you learn that?
• 4:07
  Tom Jackobs: Or how did that come about, and what was your journey into, to doing that?
• 4:12
  Rachel Allen: I think was fortunate in that I learned marketing from internet courses and library books.
• 4:18
  Rachel Allen: And so I never had anybody really telling me it should be otherwise, and I would see these marketing campaigns that were very aggressive or manipulative or just, like, unpleasant, and I would get really annoyed by them.
• 4:31
  Rachel Allen: And so being a giant nerd, I wanted to understand why I was annoyed by them.
• 4:36
  Rachel Allen: And I would start picking it apart, and I think ultimately what it almost always comes down to is either very lazy marketing, where they're just like,"I don't know, throw something up there and see what happens," or it's this like,"I have to extract the money from you" type of marketing, which is unpleasant.
• 4:52
  Rachel Allen: Like I always knew it just felt bad, and I didn't wanna do things that felt bad.
• 4:55
  Rachel Allen: If I wanted to do that, I would go get a, real job working for somebody else.
• 4:59
  Rachel Allen: So I kind of fell into it, and was just fortunate enough to meet people who were also aligned with that, and I was able to, really practice that from, basically the beginning of my business.
• 5:10
  Tom Jackobs: So tell me about how you transitioned into owning your own business.
• 5:14
  Rachel Allen: Uh, well, I actually fell into it totally backwards.
• 5:16
  Rachel Allen: I did not know that what I do now was a job that existed until I started doing it.
• 5:20
  Rachel Allen: Um, I,
• 5:21
  Tom Jackobs: Okay.
• 5:22
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 5:22
  Tom Jackobs: Love that.
• 5:24
  Rachel Allen: I had gone to school for, journalism and Asian studies, and then I graduated into the'08 recession, and of course, you know, nobody's hiring.
• 5:31
  Rachel Allen: In my 22-year-old brain, I was like,"Well, what's the furthest possible way I can get away from Tennessee?" And turns out that's Hong Kong.
• 5:39
  Rachel Allen: So I bought a plane ticket and I left.
• 5:42
  Rachel Allen: But I, didn't get a work visa, didn't have a plan, and so I landed with like,
• 5:46
  Tom Jackobs: Okay
• 5:47
  Rachel Allen: 200 bucks in my bank account and had to make rent.
• 5:49
  Rachel Allen: And so I started googling, like, how to make money online, and I found this marketing freelance job.
• 5:55
  Rachel Allen: and I was like,"Well, you know, I don't know how hard can it be?" And I gave it a try, and I earned my$3.25 writing this ad, and I was completely hooked.
• 6:05
  Tom Jackobs: Nice.
• 6:06
  Tom Jackobs: Awesome.
• 6:07
  Tom Jackobs: 2008,$3.25.
• 6:09
  Rachel Allen: Oh, I know.
• 6:09
  Rachel Allen: Still like, egregiously low amount of money.
• 6:11
  Rachel Allen: And then I traded down from there because my next job was coming up with topics for, like, a, a pre-Wikipedia, Wikipedia kind of site, and they, um, gave me nine cents per topic I could come up with.
• 6:23
  Tom Jackobs: Wow.
• 6:24
  Tom Jackobs: So generous.
• 6:25
  Rachel Allen: I know.
• 6:26
  Rachel Allen: It made me get really fast, though.
• 6:28
  Tom Jackobs: Right, exactly.
• 6:30
  Tom Jackobs: Let me try to get 100 of these out an hour.
• 6:32
  Rachel Allen: Yeah, exactly.
• 6:36
  Tom Jackobs: Wow.
• 6:37
  Tom Jackobs: And so how long were you in Hong Kong, and what was the rest of the journey there?
• 6:41
  Rachel Allen: So I was there for about two years,and then,
• 6:44
  Tom Jackobs: Okay.
• 6:44
  Rachel Allen: I lived nomadically for the next 10 years after that.
• 6:46
  Rachel Allen: I moved about every six months or so.
• 6:48
  Rachel Allen: and then, yeah, ended up in London for a while, and then went through a breakup of a relationship where I had made the critical error of connecting my visa to his.
• 6:58
  Rachel Allen: So when the relationship ended, I had to leave the country.
• 7:02
  Rachel Allen: Uh, yeah, like don't, don't do that.
• 7:04
  Rachel Allen: Um, but I, sort of couch surfed for a while with a friend in Switzerland and then moved back to Washington DC and now I'm back down in Tennessee.
• 7:12
  Tom Jackobs: I love that'cause I was living the kind of nomadic life as well.
• 7:15
  Tom Jackobs: And, all you need is a laptop and an internet connection and you're good to go.
• 7:19
  Rachel Allen: And it's so much easier, I think, nowadays'cause the internet's more widespread.
• 7:23
  Rachel Allen: I don't know if you remember the little internet dongles you used to have to get, to try and connect with the Wi-Fi?
• 7:27
  Rachel Allen: Yeah
• 7:29
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 7:29
  Tom Jackobs: Well, and I had a, like a hotspot as well, like a global hotspot.
• 7:33
  Tom Jackobs: That I would carry around.
• 7:34
  Tom Jackobs: And one time I was in the Philippines on an island in Siargao, Island, and it was like the fastest I could get was 3G.
• 7:43
  Tom Jackobs: And I was trying to do video calls, and I was like,"Oh, my gosh, this is painful."
• 7:47
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 7:49
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah, I'm, like, not gonna do that.
• 7:50
  Rachel Allen: Yeah, no.
• 7:51
  Rachel Allen: And it was like Skype back in the day too, So it was really buggy and yeah.
• 7:56
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 7:56
  Tom Jackobs: It's crazy.
• 7:58
  Tom Jackobs: Well, that's, that's very cool.
• 7:59
  Tom Jackobs: So 10 years of the nomadic and just, you know, kind of working for yourself, being a freelancer, what's been the, the most pleasant surprise that you've had for, you know, having a heart-led business?
• 8:13
  Rachel Allen: I think it was the first time that my business really hit a lull, and I had, I wasn't sure what to do.
• 8:19
  Rachel Allen: Since it was my first time going through it, I was like,"Oh no, it's all over.
• 8:22
  Rachel Allen: I'll never work again." Which now having been through like five internet apocalypses, I know that's just not the case.
• 8:28
  Rachel Allen: But
• 8:29
  Tom Jackobs: Right
• 8:30
  Rachel Allen: I was, I was so ashamed and I didn't wanna tell anybody, and I finally opened up to one of my business friends, and she was like,"Oh girl, come on.
• 8:38
  Rachel Allen: You're fine.
• 8:39
  Rachel Allen: it's gonna be fine." And all of these wonderful people that I had worked with and met, rallied around me and encouraged me and sent business my way, and just gave me the confidence to keep going.
• 8:49
  Rachel Allen: And I hadn't gone into it to, make these relationships pay off or anything.
• 8:53
  Rachel Allen: I just made the relationships'cause I wanted to work with cool people and I like making friends.
• 8:57
  Rachel Allen: But to see that I could rely on that and have that as a safety net when things were hard was very touching
• 9:04
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 9:05
  Tom Jackobs: You know, I think that's a common story that I hear as well, and I, that I've experienced also, that as an entrepreneur, we're, we feel like we're the only one.
• 9:14
  Rachel Allen: Yes.
• 9:14
  Tom Jackobs: and a lot of times we're told, just soldier through, you know, burn the boats.
• 9:18
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 9:19
  Tom Jackobs: Just, do, grind it through.
• 9:20
  Tom Jackobs: And which I think is just really bad advice anyway.
• 9:23
  Rachel Allen: I agree.
• 9:24
  Tom Jackobs: You know, and it's just hard on the person as well.
• 9:26
  Tom Jackobs: It's like,"I know, I'm trying," but there's nobody else that understands what you do.
• 9:31
  Rachel Allen: Uh-huh.
• 9:31
  Tom Jackobs: It's when you get around other like-minded entrepreneurs, it's like,"Oh, my people.
• 9:35
  Tom Jackobs: this is cool." Yeah.
• 9:37
  Tom Jackobs: And then the problems don't seem so bad because theirs are worse.
• 9:40
  Rachel Allen: Exactly.
• 9:42
  Rachel Allen: And if you have somebody who's like willing to be the first one to be like,"Hey, things are real bad right now," then everybody comes out of the woodwork and they're like,"Oh my God, it is really bad." And then you don't feel so alone.
• 9:53
  Rachel Allen: So that's what I've tried to do in these, I don't know, the past couple times it's been bad.
• 9:56
  Rachel Allen: I've been the first one certainly in my feeds to be like,"Anybody else's business having issues?" And then everybody floods in.
• 10:05
  Tom Jackobs: Nice.
• 10:05
  Tom Jackobs: Nice.
• 10:05
  Tom Jackobs: That's part of being heart-led as well.
• 10:07
  Tom Jackobs: Surrounding yourself with like-minded people who understand and, and get you.
• 10:12
  Tom Jackobs: Now everybody loves a good train wreck story.
• 10:15
  Tom Jackobs: So what, has there been any challenges as you navigate being heart-led and needing to make a profit?
• 10:25
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 10:25
  Rachel Allen: so I've got a couple.
• 10:26
  Rachel Allen: I think the first one happened very early on.
• 10:28
  Rachel Allen: I ended up signing a client for five figures, pretty early on in my business, which was just ridiculous.
• 10:34
  Rachel Allen: I had no...
• 10:35
  Rachel Allen: I didn't know what I was doing.
• 10:36
  Rachel Allen: I had Googled again how to do a sales call before I started talking to this person, and it was a wonderful experience.
• 10:42
  Rachel Allen: But as I got more and more down into it, I realized that this person's business was predicated on common but, kinda less than excellent tactics when it came to bringing in clients.
• 10:54
  Rachel Allen: And at one point, I heard somebody who worked in the business telling a client that they needed to mortgage their house to be able to afford to pay for a program.
• 11:00
  Rachel Allen: And I was like,"Uh-uh." Like, I can't.
• 11:04
  Rachel Allen: Even though, uh, it, it would've never been associated with me, my name wouldn't have come up with that, but I was like,"I just can't be a part of something like that." And at the time, this person was my biggest client, and it felt like a complete fluke to me.
• 11:15
  Rachel Allen: So again, I was like,"I don't even know if I'm gonna sign anybody ever again." But I fired them.
• 11:19
  Rachel Allen: And yeah.
• 11:21
  Rachel Allen: And it was this real moment of"Am I gonna go be a bartender?
• 11:24
  Rachel Allen: I don't know.
• 11:24
  Rachel Allen: We'll see." But I just knew that I couldn't, like, I couldn't square it with myself to be a part, even supporting a part of that, even if it would never tie directly back to me.
• 11:34
  Tom Jackobs: Wow.
• 11:35
  Tom Jackobs: And how long into the relationship did you realize that?
• 11:38
  Rachel Allen: It was probably like 18 months or so in.
• 11:42
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 11:42
  Tom Jackobs: Okay.
• 11:43
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 11:43
  Rachel Allen: So we'd been working together for a minute.
• 11:44
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 11:45
  Tom Jackobs: And then said, you know,"Thank you for the, the five figures and I'm out."
• 11:50
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 11:50
  Rachel Allen: I was like,"Yeah, I can do a month and then I gotta transition out of this." Like, I deeply respect you and appreciate you, and we're just not working in the same way.
• 11:59
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 11:59
  Tom Jackobs: That takes a lot of courage to be able to do that.
• 12:03
  Tom Jackobs: where did that courage come from?
• 12:05
  Rachel Allen: I think it comes back to that, that first decision that I made of I don't know, let's move across the world and see what happens,'cause I think it's I don't know, this, something in me where I'm like, you know what?
• 12:17
  Rachel Allen: I don't know what's gonna happen, and I know that something is going to happen.
• 12:22
  Rachel Allen: And I think by that time, I had a very tenuous, tiny little thread of trust that I would figure stuff out, and that's grown stronger over the years as I've made these moves and stuff has worked out or not worked out, and then I've had to figure out how to fix that too.
• 12:37
  Rachel Allen: But yeah, I think it's just this illogical, irrational willingness to bet on myself that I don't know where it comes from, and I'm so grateful that I have it.
• 12:47
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 12:47
  Tom Jackobs: I mean, I, there's a lot of, people that want to be entrepreneurs, but they just don't have that kind of, that skill set or the tenacity to be actually to ignore a lot of the negative stuff and just go for it.
• 13:01
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 13:02
  Tom Jackobs: You're true entrepreneur.
• 13:03
  Tom Jackobs: That's a- amazing.
• 13:04
  Rachel Allen: Hey, again, I would never, never in a million years would've thought it, but I just fell backwards into the right job for me.
• 13:10
  Tom Jackobs: That's cool.
• 13:10
  Tom Jackobs: Now, going back to that, the client that you fired.
• 13:13
  Tom Jackobs: So early on you said that magnet.
• 13:15
  Tom Jackobs: So was that magnet repelling at that point?
• 13:18
  Tom Jackobs: Or
• 13:18
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 13:19
  Tom Jackobs: like how strong was that magnet for you.
• 13:21
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 13:21
  Rachel Allen: It was this like...
• 13:22
  Rachel Allen: So I tried to ignore it.
• 13:24
  Rachel Allen: It's this like sort of light sinking feeling of like, mm, you know?
• 13:27
  Rachel Allen: And I would find myself like physically leaning away on calls and stuff.
• 13:31
  Rachel Allen: And then I was like,"Oh no, that's what's happening.
• 13:34
  Rachel Allen: Oh." And I tried to be like,"No, it's fine." But of course it's not.
• 13:39
  Rachel Allen: And then eventually it starts to feel like friction, you know?
• 13:42
  Rachel Allen: Like, like a sandpaper type feeling and I'm like, I just, I can't.
• 13:47
  Rachel Allen: I have to sleep.
• 13:47
  Rachel Allen: I can't do that.
• 13:48
  Tom Jackobs: And like I said, that's very brave to be able to do that, and especially at a large dollar amount.
• 13:53
  Tom Jackobs: But at the end of the day, like you just said, you need to sleep at night.
• 13:56
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 13:57
  Tom Jackobs: Also, and you have your own morals and ethical obligation that you want to uphold,
• 14:01
  Rachel Allen: And also to be clear, I cried like the whole time.
• 14:04
  Rachel Allen: Like
• 14:05
  Tom Jackobs: Oh
• 14:05
  Rachel Allen: the whole entire time.
• 14:06
  Rachel Allen: It was not a badass moment for me.
• 14:08
  Rachel Allen: It was a like,"Ah!" Yeah.
• 14:11
  Tom Jackobs: What did I just do.
• 14:12
  Rachel Allen: Yeah, exactly.
• 14:14
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 14:15
  Tom Jackobs: I had one of those moments at like years and years and years ago, I owned a, a small, personal training studio that also had a gym, like open gym.
• 14:23
  Tom Jackobs: And the previous owner had a deal with an apartment complex where any of their, the residents could use the gym as an amenity.
• 14:32
  Tom Jackobs: And then, the apartment building was like paying$5 per person.
• 14:36
  Rachel Allen: Oh, that's low.
• 14:37
  Tom Jackobs: I was like,"Oh, that's not gonna work for me.
• 14:39
  Tom Jackobs: That's just not..." Yeah.
• 14:40
  Tom Jackobs: So I went to them and I said,"Look, we're gonna need to raise it to like$20 per person." And then they canceled it.
• 14:48
  Tom Jackobs: And I was like,"Oh my gosh, What did I do?
• 14:49
  Tom Jackobs: What did I do?" Then, but then like two weeks later, I was like,"Wow, this is awesome.
• 14:54
  Tom Jackobs: All those people that were wrecking my machines, they were loud, they're gone.
• 14:59
  Tom Jackobs: This is amazing." And then the business kind of took off from there.
• 15:03
  Rachel Allen: Yeah
• 15:03
  Tom Jackobs: But it's interesting that, we catastrophize a lot of those decisions and then, but at the end of the day, it is the good decision if you're making it, with, your heart and your gut at the same time.
• 15:16
  Rachel Allen: And I think the, the good and the horrible thing that I've learned is I, anything that I have catastrophized in my brain with my business has almost never happened.
• 15:23
  Rachel Allen: It's always like a completely different catastrophe that I could have never seen coming.
• 15:28
  Tom Jackobs: Right, exactly.
• 15:30
  Rachel Allen: So It's like, I don't know.
• 15:31
  Tom Jackobs: Where that come from?
• 15:31
  Rachel Allen: Yeah, exactly.
• 15:32
  Tom Jackobs: Hadn't thought about that before.
• 15:35
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah, that's crazy.
• 15:37
  Tom Jackobs: So how do you balance then the, the thought of having a heart-led business and making money at the same time.
• 15:46
  Rachel Allen: So I think these two concepts are put in a false opposition.
• 15:50
  Rachel Allen: I think people see it as"Oh, I can either be heart-led and be of service, or I can make money." And I understand where that comes from, like psychologically, historically, there's a lot of like nerd stuff we can unpack there.
• 16:02
  Rachel Allen: But I think what it really comes down to is a lot of times people are afraid to take the responsibility for providing that service, because if someone's paid you, then it's like real, and I think people take an over-- like they overreach responsibility into other people's lives.
• 16:17
  Rachel Allen: So one of the best pieces of advice I ever got in business was keep your hands out of other people's wallets, which is like, you don't know what expensive is to them.
• 16:25
  Rachel Allen: You don't know what life looks like for them.
• 16:27
  Rachel Allen: you have to trust people to be able to say,"Yes, I can afford this," or,"No, I can't." And you have to let them make their own bad decisions if they're gonna do that.
• 16:35
  Rachel Allen: You can't be responsible for that.
• 16:37
  Rachel Allen: The only thing you can be responsible for is showing up and being of as much service as you possibly can.
• 16:44
  Rachel Allen: And so that's how I square it for me.
• 16:45
  Rachel Allen: That's how I square it with my clients.
• 16:47
  Rachel Allen: I try to give 150,000%'cause, you know, relentless overachiever.
• 16:53
  Rachel Allen: I want to give so much to my clients, and I want them to walk away feeling like,"Oh, I, you know, I would've spent 10 times on this and it would've been worth it." And by showing up that, with that much care and investment, I really think that, you know, whatever, the money is almost incidental at that point.
• 17:13
  Rachel Allen: Like it's wonderful.
• 17:14
  Rachel Allen: I am committed to having a profitable business and a comfortable life, and I find that the less I focus on that and the more I focus on the relationship, the money works out.
• 17:24
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 17:24
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 17:26
  Tom Jackobs: 100%.
• 17:27
  Tom Jackobs: Do you ever, um, have those clients that, maybe take a little advantage of the situation that you're so giving?
• 17:35
  Tom Jackobs: And how do you handle those situations?
• 17:37
  Rachel Allen: I definitely have.
• 17:38
  Rachel Allen: Um, and I've had to learn how to hold my own boundaries with that.
• 17:41
  Rachel Allen: So I think the thing with a heart-led business is that you have to have a heart for yourself first as well.
• 17:47
  Rachel Allen: I think people often, yeah, they focus that on the outside and they're like,"Oh, I'll care for all my clients, and then I will be miserable." It's horrible.
• 17:54
  Rachel Allen: You can't take care of people like that.
• 17:56
  Rachel Allen: So I've had clients, I mean, scope creep, I think everybody has to learn how to deal with that.
• 18:01
  Rachel Allen: I've had a lot of that.
• 18:02
  Rachel Allen: I've had a lot of clients try to be like,"Oh, but when I signed a contract, I didn't realize you, like, expected me to follow through on paying you." And I'm like,"I'm sorry.
• 18:11
  Rachel Allen: Are we just playing here?
• 18:12
  Rachel Allen: Like, what's happening?"
• 18:14
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah, right.
• 18:14
  Rachel Allen: Yeah, so I've had to, be very clear upfront about my own boundaries.
• 18:19
  Rachel Allen: What?
• 18:19
  Rachel Allen: am I actually okay with?
• 18:20
  Rachel Allen: because I will happily work with a client if we need to, I don't know, spread on an invoice or something, But if it's somebody who's coming in and they're just like,"Oh, well, I'm gonna try and get something out of you," then I'm like,"Okay, well, you will get exactly what we are contracted for to the letter and not one iota more."
• 18:36
  Tom Jackobs: Wow.
• 18:37
  Tom Jackobs: And, just like firing clients as well, having those boundaries is really important for your own health and mental health and just, you know, helping other people.
• 18:48
  Tom Jackobs: But it's also sends the signal to the client like,"No this is what we do, and this is how we're going to act together, and I'm gonna give you everything I have within the scope." And, you know, it's nice to give back a little bit without the expectation of return.
• 19:06
  Tom Jackobs: But if that's, they're taking advantage of that, it's like, okay, this is w- how that, how we're gonna play that game now.
• 19:13
  Rachel Allen: Yeah I think you have to meet people where they're at and give them the opportunity to be their best selves.
• 19:18
  Rachel Allen: And I think a lot of that, I mean, for me, it certainly came down to better discernment with which clients I worked with, because I think in those early days, it's easy to be like,"I can help everyone." and then you end up working with people who, I don't know, build their site on GoDaddy, and then that's a whole thing.
• 19:32
  Rachel Allen: So, um,
• 19:33
  Tom Jackobs: Right.
• 19:34
  Rachel Allen: That, that is one of my no-gos now.
• 19:35
  Rachel Allen: It's one of my red flags of"Ugh, can't do it." but I think that when, again, the more clear I am with my boundaries, it's a kindness to the other person, because you don't wanna have somebody accidentally overstep and then they feel bad, then you feel bad, and it's messy and it's sticky.
• 19:50
  Rachel Allen: And it's like, no, just be clear and then let people make their own decisions.
• 19:54
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 19:54
  Tom Jackobs: No, and that's really good advice is to keep your hands out of the pocket, let them make their own decisions.
• 19:59
  Tom Jackobs: Like that's, uh, that's something that I have to tell a lot of the salespeople I work with because they often say,"Oh, I'm not quite sure if they can afford it, and I don't wanna like..." I'm like,"How do you know?"
• 20:10
  Rachel Allen: You Have no idea.
• 20:10
  Rachel Allen: They might've just got an inheritance.
• 20:12
  Tom Jackobs: Did you look at their bank account?
• 20:13
  Rachel Allen: Yeah, exactly.
• 20:14
  Rachel Allen: You have no idea.
• 20:16
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 20:16
  Tom Jackobs: And it's like,"Why, why are you making that decision for them?" Well, I'm not making it.""Well, no, you are because you're saying that they can't afford it.
• 20:24
  Tom Jackobs: Where'd that come from?" And then, and especially in a sales environment, that then, the...
• 20:30
  Tom Jackobs: now the, the prospect is going,"Well, maybe I can't afford it.
• 20:33
  Tom Jackobs: They feel that way too.
• 20:35
  Tom Jackobs: So, you know, it's, um, it's a definitely a double-edged sword in, in that sense.
• 20:40
  Rachel Allen: And I think it comes from a deep empathy a lot of the times, but it can sort of go over into that codependence space of like,"Oh, I need to take care of your feelings so that I feel good about myself." And I'm like, Yeah.
• 20:52
  Rachel Allen: you just, it's, this is not the space for that.
• 20:54
  Rachel Allen: It's not healthy
• 20:56
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 20:56
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah, and definitely a lot of the heart-led business owners that I speak to are empathetic and, or empaths.
• 21:02
  Tom Jackobs: So it totally...
• 21:05
  Tom Jackobs: I can see how a lot of them, and us, like I'm pretty empathetic as well most of the time.
• 21:10
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 21:11
  Tom Jackobs: And that, you know, it's like,"Oh yeah, no, I want to help you, I want to help you, I want to help you." Then it's like,"Okay, I've helped you a lot."
• 21:18
  Rachel Allen: Right.
• 21:18
  Tom Jackobs: Where's that gonna...
• 21:19
  Tom Jackobs: what's the reciprocity at that
• 21:21
  Rachel Allen: point.
• 21:21
  Rachel Allen: Ugh.
• 21:21
  Rachel Allen: Yeah, a rule I had to make for myself a couple years ago was I cannot be more invested in your business's success than you are.
• 21:28
  Rachel Allen: 'Cause I was just getting my heart broken over and over again seeing these people where I'm like,"You just, you just gotta do the...
• 21:33
  Rachel Allen: I've given you everything.
• 21:34
  Rachel Allen: You just gotta do the thing." And for whatever reason, they didn't wanna do the thing, and the business was failing.
• 21:40
  Rachel Allen: And I'm like,"Ah, I could fix it.
• 21:41
  Rachel Allen: I could fix it," but it's not my job.
• 21:43
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 21:46
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah, that's funny.
• 21:47
  Tom Jackobs: I have-- always have to tell the employees too that, that work for me, especially in customer service, the customer is not always right, it's our job to help them feel that they are.
• 22:00
  Rachel Allen: Exactly.
• 22:01
  Tom Jackobs: And it's, and it's definitely setting those boundaries as well because, you know, my employees, like, one of the principles that we have is just let's make it easy for our client.
• 22:10
  Rachel Allen: Yes.
• 22:11
  Tom Jackobs: We don't want things to be friction.
• 22:13
  Tom Jackobs: We don't want friction.
• 22:13
  Tom Jackobs: We want friction less.
• 22:14
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 22:15
  Tom Jackobs: So but they-- a lot of times they'll take that to the extreme and like, and that's the scope creep comes on our side.
• 22:22
  Rachel Allen: Right.
• 22:22
  Tom Jackobs: A lot of time.
• 22:24
  Tom Jackobs: And the other principle that we drive by is, having that, those open, honest conversations comes from a place of love.
• 22:31
  Rachel Allen: Yes.
• 22:32
  Tom Jackobs: That's a really hard skill, I think, to learn, to be able to either, have discipline an employee with love.
• 22:40
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 22:41
  Tom Jackobs: And for a client as well, set those bounderies.
• 22:43
  Rachel Allen: Right.
• 22:43
  Tom Jackobs: Versus just being a hard ass about stuff.
• 22:46
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 22:47
  Tom Jackobs: And pissing people off.
• 22:48
  Tom Jackobs: How have you balanced that kind of that skill set?
• 22:50
  Rachel Allen: I mean really badly early on.
• 22:52
  Rachel Allen: But, um, as I...
• 22:54
  Tom Jackobs: Well, of course, that's how we learn.
• 22:55
  Rachel Allen: Yeah..
• 22:55
  Tom Jackobs: Right?
• 22:57
  Rachel Allen: I think, you know, as I get into it, I, what it comes back to is I start from a place of, really deep regard for the person on the other end.
• 23:05
  Rachel Allen: And I try to come at it with non-judgment.
• 23:08
  Rachel Allen: And, like, even if I'm in a situation where I'm like, Oh you have really, wronged me," for example.
• 23:12
  Rachel Allen: So I had a client years and years ago who she signed a contract which she did not read, and she had thought the monthly payment was the entire year's payment.
• 23:23
  Rachel Allen: And so when invoice two came around, she was like, Oh, what are we doing?" And I was like,"I-- This is, like, booked about, like, 50% of my capacity for the year, and now you are wanting out of this contract." And so I took a couple days.
• 23:35
  Rachel Allen: I was like,"I need to, figure out where I'm at with this." And I took a couple days.
• 23:39
  Rachel Allen: I got through my own feelings on it, and then I realized, she's not, she wasn't doing this maliciously.
• 23:44
  Rachel Allen: She wasn't doing this, out of ill intention.
• 23:46
  Rachel Allen: I- and I ultimately came to the conclusion that I valued the relationship I had with this person more than I valued that contract.
• 23:52
  Rachel Allen: And so I was like,"Okay.
• 23:53
  Rachel Allen: Well, here's the buyout clause.
• 23:54
  Rachel Allen: Here's my proposal for how we move forward.
• 23:57
  Rachel Allen: I'm gonna be very honest with you that this is, it's gonna make my business kinda hard this year, and I am disappointed, and I still value you, and I wanna still have a relationship with you." And being honest about where I was instead of being like,"No, it's totally fine," you know?
• 24:10
  Rachel Allen: Like, I think that helped me not feel resentful.
• 24:13
  Rachel Allen: And we've ended up working together, I think, every single year since then.
• 24:16
  Rachel Allen: So it's come back, and the relationship has been wonderful.
• 24:19
  Rachel Allen: And it's even better'cause now we know we can have a really hard conversation and still do good work together.
• 24:26
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 24:27
  Tom Jackobs: that's such a great story too.
• 24:28
  Tom Jackobs: and good example of being, having that balance and being able to have those hard conversations, but when those hard conversations come from the heart, it's a lot easier to keep that relationship then alive.
• 24:44
  Tom Jackobs: Yeah.
• 24:45
  Tom Jackobs: and it's really really helpful for both parties.
• 24:47
  Rachel Allen: Right.
• 24:47
  Rachel Allen: Exactly,'cause at least we know where we stand, right?
• 24:50
  Rachel Allen: I would always rather have a good clean fight than somebody being secretly mad at me.
• 24:54
  Rachel Allen: And it's Yeah just tell me what's up.
• 24:56
  Rachel Allen: If you think I've messed up, please tell me.
• 24:58
  Rachel Allen: If you think that...
• 24:59
  Rachel Allen: I've had clients, thankfully not many, one or two throughout the years have been like,"Oh, you are the worst mistake I've ever made." And I'm like,"That is good to know.
• 25:06
  Rachel Allen: Also, you should probably take some more risks.
• 25:08
  Rachel Allen: If I'm the worst thing that's ever happened to you, you're doing fine."
• 25:13
  Tom Jackobs: That's funny.
• 25:15
  Tom Jackobs: It's so true.
• 25:18
  Tom Jackobs: That's awesome.
• 25:19
  Tom Jackobs: Well, Rachel, this has been just a fascinating conversation just, and being a digital nomad and just all over the world, and we have so much in common with that.
• 25:27
  Rachel Allen: Yeah.
• 25:28
  Tom Jackobs: Just how you fell into your business as well.
• 25:30
  Tom Jackobs: I love that.
• 25:31
  Tom Jackobs: It's awesome.
• 25:32
  Tom Jackobs: How can people learn more about you and the work that you're doing?
• 25:35
  Rachel Allen: They can find me at boltfromthebluecopywriting.com or just connect with me on LinkedIn
• 25:40
  Tom Jackobs: All right.
• 25:41
  Tom Jackobs: will definitely link those up into the show notes as well and, make sure that people are clicking over there and checking everything out that you're doing.
• 25:50
  Tom Jackobs: Rachel, thank you so much for sharing your story, sharing...
• 25:53
  Tom Jackobs: Being vulnerable with us and sharing the tough stories and the good stories as well.
• 25:56
  Tom Jackobs: I really do appreciate you coming onto the show.
• 25:58
  Rachel Allen: It has been wonderful.
• 25:59
  Rachel Allen: Thank you so much for having me.
• 26:01
  Tom Jackobs: Very welcome.
• 26:02
  Tom Jackobs: And thank you listeners for listening to the show today, or watching it if you're on YouTube.
• 26:07
  Tom Jackobs: We really do appreciate it.
• 26:09
  Tom Jackobs: And make sure that you do check out everything that Rachel's doing.
• 26:12
  Tom Jackobs: We're gonna put that all down into the show notes, so make sure you go down there and, read those show notes, click away.
• 26:17
  Tom Jackobs: And also while you're down there, I think there is a share button.
• 26:20
  Tom Jackobs: You could share the show with a friend or a loved one that could use the advice that was shared today, and I would definitely appreciate that as well.
• 26:28
  Tom Jackobs: So until next time, lead with the heart.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to The Heart-Led Business Show, hosted by Tom Jackobs.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Join us next time for another inspiring journey into the heart of business.