Latest / The Sexology Lab / Why Relationship Problems Start in Childhood | Imago Therapy with Dr. Joe Kort | Episode 9

Transcript

Why Relationship Problems Start in Childhood | Imago Therapy with Dr. Joe Kort | Episode 9 · The Sexology Lab

• 0:00
  I love imago relationship therapy.
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  I've been doing it since 1994. It saved my marriage.
• 0:04
  I really believe that without it, we might not have gotten
• 0:07
  over the hump. Imago is just a Latin word for
• 0:10
  image. And that you're drawn to
• 0:11
  familiar love. That you're drawn to partners
• 0:14
  that possess both the positive and negative traits of your
• 0:17
  primary caretaker. And you invite and hire this
• 0:21
  person, in so many words, to rewound you in the exact same
• 0:25
  ways that you were wounded in childhood.
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  What if the biggest problem in your relationship isn't
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  happening right now, but is something that started decades
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  ago and is still shaping how you love, fight and connect with
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  your partner? Today in the lab, we're joined
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  by Doctor Joe Court, Board Certified Clinical Psychologist,
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  author and founder of the Center for Relationship Health.
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  With over 40 years of experience, Doctor Joe Port is
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  known for his work in imago, relationship therapy, trauma
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  informed care, and helping people make sense of complex
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  sexual and relational dynamics without shame.
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  In this conversation, we unpack why so many couples stay stuck
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  solving surface level problems and how those childhood
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  experiences shape your relationships.
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  If you've ever felt like you're having the same argument on
• 1:23
  repeat and want to know why this episode might teach you
• 1:27
  something new, welcome to Sexology Lab.
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  Each week, we speak with the most compelling minds in modern
• 1:34
  sexology to ask the questions shaping the future of desire,
• 1:38
  connection, and human Wellness. Let's dive in.
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  Welcome, Doctor Joe Court. Hey thanks for having me.
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  Thanks so much for being here today.
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  So I want to start out with a really serious question for you.
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  Have you watched Heated Rivalry? I couldn't get past the second
• 1:53
  episode. I know people love it, I don't.
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  I want to hear about it. OK.
• 1:57
  What did you not like about it? I don't know.
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  I love that it's two men. I love that it's gay.
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  I love that there's romance and intimacy and sex and all the
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  right stuff that you always see with heterosexuals, but not gay.
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  But I don't get into the character.
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  I don't like hockey and it's too slow.
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  I'm like asleep by the midway. Yeah, totally.
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  I love that. I feel like we could do like a
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  whole analysis on like heated rivalry.
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  I love what it sparked though. I love the popularity, women
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  watching it, exposing straight women and lesbians who are
• 2:26
  interested in that, and even straight men that are watching
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  it. They're getting kind of aroused
• 2:30
  by it. It's an interesting experiment,
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  really. It really is.
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  Yeah. The show is hot, hot, hot right
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  now. All right, now I want to talk
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  about your origin story. So maybe in about 30 seconds, I
• 2:41
  want to hear how you found your way into this work and when you
• 2:44
  realized that this was your specialty.
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  So I found my way into this work because as a teenager, I went to
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  a therapist for being gay and coming out, and I was 14.
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  It was 1977, long time ago. I still talked to him, actually,
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  he's in his 80s. He's not my therapist anymore,
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  but we're friends. Then I realized I wanted to be
• 2:59
  in his chair doing what he did. And then I became a regular
• 3:03
  social worker, LMSW. And then I just realized I was
• 3:06
  working so much with sexual abuse and trauma.
• 3:09
  And then over time, I wanted to work with helping people from
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  that go to sexual pleasure and sexual health, and that's how I
• 3:15
  got. Here.
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  Oh, I love it all right now. Is there one current trend in
• 3:19
  sexual health or relationship work that really excites you
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  right now? Well, I'm going to promote my
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  own trend, which is I'm trying to get people thinking about
• 3:28
  Outer Course as opposed to intercourse.
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  And I coined the term side for gay men who don't top and don't
• 3:34
  bottom. They don't penetrate either way.
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  And I'm actually currently writing a book for everyone
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  around Outer Course and helping great gay men, women, everyone.
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  I love that so much and I can't wait for your book to come out.
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  When's the estimated release date?
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  I don't know. We're just starting it.
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  You're just starting it. We don't have a publisher yet,
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  but we will. Oh, yeah, you definitely will.
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  I want to know if you could teach the world one essential
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  insight about sexual health, something that could really move
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  the needle, what would that be? That the way you have sex is
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  right for you as long as it's consensual and it's with adults.
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  I know this sounds so cheesy and I hate cheesy, but really,
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  however you get off is how you get off.
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  I mean, I worked with a couple once.
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  They can only get off in a certain way.
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  They came to me because they thought they should do
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  penetration sex or they should have it certainly.
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  And we tried. I said OK, I'll help you with
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  that. But this might be you.
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  Anything else might be like conversion therapy and it really
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  was turned out so that want people to know.
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  Get rid of the shame and embrace it.
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  Yeah, I love that. That's fantastic.
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  Now, after 40 years of practice, what has changed the most in how
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  you work with couples? Well, the most I would say is
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  asking about sexual health. I never used to do that, and now
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  I think it's unethical not to when everybody has a sex life,
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  whether you're active or not. But I think I've also changed.
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  I've just gotten better. I've gotten less involved in the
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  problem solving, less interested in their fight, and more
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  interested in helping them turn to each other and figure out
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  their own solutions. They'll always turn to you as a
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  therapist, say, well, what do you think?
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  Here's your thoughts on this. How should we proceed?
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  And I always say that's a be a Joe Court's response.
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  You need a response that's tailored to you.
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  Yeah, definitely. Now at Sexual Health Alliance,
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  we train many people who are wanting to work in sexual health
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  and work with people in relationships.
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  So what's the most important thing professionals need to know
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  in this space? How to ask the questions.
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  Here's what a lot of therapists will say.
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  Well, I don't ask anything sexual unless they bring it up.
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  And I'll say, well, wait a minute, do you not ask anything
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  about family of origin unless they bring it up?
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  No, of course not, of that's part of the intake and part of
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  the assessment. So should this be really asking
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  the questions? I say to my clients, if you
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  don't want to talk about it, I know I'm a stranger, we're new
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  to each other. You don't have to say it and you
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  don't have to answer anything. But I do want to ask because I'm
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  trained in this and it's important to ask otherwise they
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  won't know to talk about it. Yeah, exactly.
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  Stay curious, ask questions. Yes.
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  I love it. Now I want to talk a little bit
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  about Imago. So could you briefly explain to
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  anybody who's new to this concept what is Imago
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  Relationship Therapy? I love imago relationship
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  therapy. I've been doing it since 1994.
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  It saved my marriage. I really believe that without
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  it, we might not have gotten over the hump.
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  Imago's just a Latin word for image.
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  And that you're drawn to familiar love, that you're drawn
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  to partners that possess both the positive and negative traits
• 6:23
  of your primary caretaker. And you invite and hire this
• 6:27
  person, in so many words, to rewound you in the exact same
• 6:31
  ways that you were wounded in childhood around unfinished
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  business, so that you can finish what's been unfinished from your
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  childhood. So that's why when couples come
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  in, they can't solve the problem.
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  The problem isn't current. It's not what you're talking
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  about. It's a historic problem that's
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  now contaminating your present. It's so interesting and so is
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  there something that you think therapist misunderstand about
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  Imago when they first start working with it or encounter it?
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  I think it's too psychodynamic that everything shouldn't be
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  about your childhood. And I agree.
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  I don't do an orthodox imago, but I do believe that you have
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  to have a history. You have to understand
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  somebody's genogram, whether you're doing a formal one or
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  not, because I feel like I'm working in the dark.
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  And I think a lot of therapists also don't understand that
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  there's a series of really good communication exercises, and
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  they think that it's too contrived and too mechanical.
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  But it has to be when a couple comes in with high conflict.
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  Yeah. And so when doing Imago, do you
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  need to have the couple together in your office or can you do it
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  individually? It's better in the office, but I
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  can also do it individually and ask them to take home the tools
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  if the partner at home is willing to participate in some
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  way, but that's not always easy to get them to do.
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  And So what tends to be the hardest part of Imago dialogue
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  for couples and for the therapist facilitating it?
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  The hardest part for couples is mirroring back something you
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  don't agree with because everybody wants to wait.
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  I didn't say no, no, no, that's not what happened.
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  No, it was Tuesday. No, no.
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  So when you do that, we say you broke your mirror, you're
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  mirroring your partner now. The mirror's broken, and now
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  you've hijacked this to make it about you.
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  And whatever is, even if it's real, it doesn't matter.
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  Your partner has whatever narrative going on, and they
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  need to go from start to finish to figure out what came up for
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  them. So it's important for you to
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  allow them to go in the wrong direction.
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  So if your partner says the moon is made of cream cheese, your
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  job is one thing. To repeat.
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  What I hear you saying is the moon is made of cream cheese.
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  Did I get it? Is there more?
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  And sometimes partners they get too flooded by it.
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  Another hard part would be validating your partner's
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  experience, saying it makes sense to me that you think the
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  moon is made of cream cheese and to really realize you're not
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  agreeing with them. You're just saying from your
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  point of view, if I take my glasses off and put yours on and
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  see the world, I can see how you see this hardest thing for
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  people to do. And do you ever realize that
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  Imago is not the right fit for a couple?
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  Yeah, some people don't like the mechanics, they don't like the
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  parenting. They don't feel like they fit
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  into the paradigm of my history has informed my presence.
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  So I just go with that. Then I say, OK, I'm going to
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  keep inserting it, maybe, but it might be helpful.
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  But if it's not, that's OK too. Let's just get you guys trying
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  to figure this out. Right.
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  I love that because it's working with what the client needs at
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  the time. Like you can't go in with like
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  your own agenda, like you have to just adapt to what they need.
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  I you never used to be that way as a younger therapist, I would
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  get the clients to adapt to the way I did it and not really get
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  flexible with them. Yeah, well, I think a.
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  Lot of times when you're first learning to be a therapist, they
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  give you these frameworks and you feel like you have to use
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  them on everybody and it can be a challenge to develop your own
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  style and really listen to what the client needs.
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  And trust yourself in inserting what you know is best sitting in
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  front of these people. Now I want to talk about imago
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  and sexuality. So how does Imago help couples
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  who are struggling with desires, discrepancies or sexual
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  disconnection The. Theory is imago helps you
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  differentiate, right? So couples usually come in very
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  symbiotic, you and I are one and I'm the one, you and I are one
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  and you're the one. Like differences are
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  threatening. When you can tolerate
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  differences and tolerate the tension and not say to your
• 9:58
  partner what makes you right or makes me wrong, what makes me
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  you good makes me bad and really sit with that tension, it can
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  spark some passion because that's really what passion comes
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  from is the mystery and differences and how do we get
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  here in a curiosity with each other And it's not enough.
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  There is more to it, but that's the start of it I would say.
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  And how do you integrate discussions of sexual desire,
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  kink, or sexual identity within an Imago framework?
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  Imago depends a lot on sentence stems.
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  So we'll say things like just in general, here's my frustration.
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  What hurts me about this is and then they'll complete that.
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  What I'm afraid of about this is they'll complete that and then I
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  give them sentence stems. What is most shameful to me
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  about my sexual interest with you is what I'm most afraid of
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  around asking for my sexual need is things like that.
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  Yeah, and having that dialogue structure and examples I think
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  is so helpful for people because sometimes you just don't know
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  how to say it or you feel like you're going to say it the wrong
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  way. And they need prompters and me,
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  the therapist giving them prompters gives permission in
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  the room. Otherwise the client might say
• 11:00
  to their partner, well, where did you get that that idea from?
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  And are you cheating on me? Did you watch something that you
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  know? And then when it comes to the
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  therapist, it's clear it's coming from me.
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  All right. I want to switch gears a little
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  bit and talk about trauma healing and EMDR. So for anyone
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  who doesn't really know what EMDR is, could you briefly
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  explain that? EMDR is eye movement
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  desensitization reprocessing, and basically over 40 years ago,
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  a scientist found when we go to sleep and we go into REM sleep,
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  our eyes rapidly move back and forth.
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  Rapid eye movement is what REM sleep is.
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  And so that's why when you say to somebody or you say to
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  yourself, I'm just going to sleep on it, it's because during
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  your REM sleep, you're sorting things through and in the
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  morning you may have a completely different
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  perspective. Well, the scientists found you
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  can activate that in your waking state.
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  You don't have to be in an altered state by just getting
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  eyes moving back and forth. So my clients sit there with a
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  machine or my fingers or a pen and their eyes go back and forth
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  for 30 seconds and they target very difficult memories, very
• 11:57
  painful memories. On a scale from zero, it doesn't
• 12:00
  bother me or disturb me at all, to a scale of 10, it would be a
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  10 for them. And we drop it down to 0 by
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  doing EMDR. Yeah, So do you ever use EMDR and Imago together?
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  I do. I mean they might be doing a
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  mago and then I may say to a client, you know, your trauma is
• 12:14
  interfering with the work we're doing.
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  Maybe we need to do some EMDR on the side or have you go to
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  somebody. I often will do the work.
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  Sometimes I will do in front of a partner.
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  This is one of the things they tell you not to do.
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  I don't know what it is today, but in the training they say
• 12:28
  don't do it in front of people. I'd sometimes do.
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  I base it on the maturity and the level of ability of the
• 12:33
  couples to tolerate that. Yeah.
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  So I do use them together. And then how do you know when to
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  use EMDR with the patient? Oh, I mostly know it when I can
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  see the traumas interfering and everything that is being said by
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  a partner is feeling attack or criticized and it's so clear
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  it's coming from their past. The theme will be the same.
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  You know, you're wound that you're we're describing sounds
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  exactly like what happened to you in childhood.
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  Some partners don't want to go there because they feel like
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  they're letting their partner off the hook.
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  And I'll say this isn't letting them off the hook.
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  They still are accountable for what they said and what they
• 13:02
  did. But let's get your reactivity
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  lowered. And I never know if it's going
• 13:06
  to work or not. You know, you try it and for
• 13:08
  most it does. And for others it's like Nope,
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  this isn't helping me. Now, is there something that
• 13:12
  therapists often get wrong when working with trauma in couples?
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  Yes, deciding that something is trauma when it's not.
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  So maybe it's a kink and somebody likes impact play or
• 13:23
  like power exchange. I just had a couple come
• 13:26
  through. She believes her husband had an
• 13:28
  issue because he was always buying stuff for himself.
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  They weren't dead and they had a lot of money.
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  He was very organized. He wasn't hoarding.
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  But the partner felt that way. And I could see how a therapist
• 13:37
  might get on that and say, well, that's not healthy.
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  Well, wait a minute, who decides that?
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  What does health look like to this guy?
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  He was fine and he was. So I think sometimes therapist
• 13:46
  misdiagnosed trauma or not misconceived trauma.
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  And now, what are the signs that a couple needs more trauma focus
• 13:53
  work before any deeper relational repair?
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  If every time we come in, we're back to the same loop and it's a
• 13:59
  power struggle gridlock where we just don't make any progress and
• 14:02
  finally say, look, we're not making any traction in here.
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  And they'll agree. And I'll say I'm fine if it's me
• 14:07
  as a therapist, if I'm not doing this correct.
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  But I believe that it's based on this trauma.
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  You need to work this through. OK.
• 14:13
  Now I want to talk a little bit about out of control sexual
• 14:16
  behaviors. So that's the one area that you
• 14:18
  do specialize in. So how do you balance
• 14:21
  accountability, passion and repair when working with out of
• 14:26
  control sexual behaviors in couples?
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  So tricky and it's like being almost like in an operating room
• 14:32
  and having to not shake when the surgeon is cutting or whatever
• 14:35
  because it can feel so cutting. To the partner who's being
• 14:38
  affected by the out of control sexual behavior, it feels like
• 14:41
  infidelity. Often it is infidelity.
• 14:43
  There's lots of betrayals, lots of trust issues, and a person
• 14:46
  without a control behavior isn't going to just stop.
• 14:48
  I used to say this. I used to be a sex addiction
• 14:50
  therapist. Sadly, but it's true.
• 14:52
  It's part of my history. Yeah.
• 14:53
  Remember in the training saying, well, you know, just have the
• 14:55
  the partner who's acting out stop for 30 days.
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  If they could stop for 30 days, they wouldn't be coming to
• 15:02
  therapy. I mean, they're having out of
• 15:03
  control. So I'll say to the partner, both
• 15:06
  of them, you know, this is going to be like a slow stopping
• 15:08
  train. And it means that you need to
• 15:09
  learn to tolerate some of these behaviors if you can, until we
• 15:12
  can get them manageable. Yeah.
• 15:14
  And so do people ever come to you and they say, hey, my
• 15:17
  husband is a sex addict. And then you have to help them
• 15:20
  reframe that and teach them out of control sexual behavior
• 15:24
  model. All the time and I'm fine with
• 15:26
  that because that's the low hanging fruit on the Internet if
• 15:28
  you have a sexual problem. And usually what women will say
• 15:31
  to the men that come to me is you're either a sex addict or a
• 15:34
  pervert. And I'm not staying married to a
• 15:35
  pervert. So you better be a sex addict,
• 15:37
  right? Because that's a sickness that
• 15:39
  you can heal. And I'll say to them, well, I
• 15:42
  understand what you're saying, but the pervert response is also
• 15:45
  maybe you discussed response about what they're getting off
• 15:47
  on, what they're getting into. You're surprised it doesn't
• 15:50
  align with what you know about this person, or align with what
• 15:53
  you want to get into. This is really so much more than
• 15:56
  just reducing this to one thing like an addiction.
• 15:59
  Yeah, and I think that's what's so appealing about the sex
• 16:01
  addiction model. It's like, oh, well, if you're
• 16:04
  an addict, then there's a fix for this right now.
• 16:07
  We can cure your addiction. So what are some problems with
• 16:10
  the sex addiction model? Well, like the first one is
• 16:13
  you're sick, so you get better and come back to me.
• 16:15
  No, no, no. Yes, they have an issue that
• 16:17
  they need to work on, but the problem may have resulted from
• 16:20
  the one partner. The resolution is from both of
• 16:22
  you and sex addiction does not have a model in treating the
• 16:25
  couple. Sex addiction doesn't have a
• 16:27
  model in treating sexual disorders at all.
• 16:30
  When you want to learn about that, that's what happened to
• 16:32
  me. I had to go outside of the
• 16:34
  addiction community and go to ASAC and learn about sexual
• 16:37
  health. And when I did, I was like, sex
• 16:39
  addiction is just harmful, abusive and stupid.
• 16:42
  Really, it's minimization. What are some common behaviors
• 16:45
  when people come to you and they think they're a sex addict or
• 16:48
  their partner's a sex addict? What are some of those common
• 16:50
  behaviors that you're actually working with them on?
• 16:54
  And that's another problem with sex addiction.
• 16:55
  They list the common behaviors. There are no common behaviors
• 16:59
  dynamic is it doesn't fit into my religious beliefs.
• 17:03
  It doesn't fit into my relationship beliefs.
• 17:05
  My wife or partner or spouse or husband doesn't want me doing
• 17:09
  this, and that's really the issue.
• 17:11
  So now they're trying to mold themselves into what they've
• 17:14
  always been trying to do, and it's not working.
• 17:16
  And So what are some of the biggest clinical mistakes that
• 17:18
  you see therapists making in this area?
• 17:20
  Being biased, you then lead your client to what you believe is
• 17:24
  sexual health rather than what sexual health for them.
• 17:26
  You might find yourself being judgmental and the clients feel
• 17:29
  that they end up leaving you. And coming to me as sex positive
• 17:32
  therapist trained, saying I really felt like they were
• 17:35
  either siding with my partner or they just didn't like what I got
• 17:38
  off on and they were trying to change me.
• 17:40
  And I always tell people, even with trauma, you're not going to
• 17:43
  change somebody's erotic orientation.
• 17:45
  We have a sexual orientation to whom we're attracted.
• 17:49
  We have an erotic orientation, the things that get us off, the
• 17:52
  things that bring us to orgasm. And that's most unlikely going
• 17:56
  to change. Just like sexual orientation,
• 17:58
  you can add to your orientation, but taking away and removing,
• 18:02
  giving somebody an erotic ectomy is impossible.
• 18:05
  Yes, yes. OK, So now how do you help other
• 18:08
  professionals in this space? Because as we both know, like
• 18:10
  the sex addiction community is huge.
• 18:13
  It's a big business model. So if you've got like colleagues
• 18:16
  or friends who are coming from this space, how do you gently
• 18:20
  introduce a better way to do things it?
• 18:22
  Has to be gentle, right? Because otherwise you look
• 18:24
  defensive, you look like you're being competitive.
• 18:26
  And I don't feel any that way. I'm trying to help avoid them,
• 18:29
  have harm done to them. So I'll just say to them, I am
• 18:33
  worried about the model that you're going to get help with
• 18:36
  because it doesn't have a good couples model.
• 18:38
  It doesn't understand sexual health and Wellness and
• 18:41
  positivity. It does have some good tools.
• 18:43
  It does. There's a disclosure process
• 18:45
  that I don't love, but lots of clients do love it.
• 18:48
  It does have a good boundary setting with different behaviors
• 18:52
  you can decide you want to do, you're not sure you want to do,
• 18:54
  you're not going to do. There are some cognitive
• 18:57
  behavioral tools in there, but that's really about it.
• 18:59
  Absolutely. All right now I want to circle
• 19:02
  back around to talk a little bit more about Imago, but I want to
• 19:04
  talk about it in the framework of working with LGBTQIA
• 19:08
  individuals and couples. So does Imago shift when working
• 19:13
  with LGBTQIA couples or individuals, or is it the same
• 19:16
  process? Same.
• 19:18
  And that's what I loved about it in the 80s when Harvill
• 19:20
  Hendricks created this model, I was drawn to it because there
• 19:23
  was only his, I think Gottman. And really, I don't remember any
• 19:26
  other model that existed. And this wasn't gender based, it
• 19:29
  was love based. So it didn't matter what gender
• 19:32
  you were or who you fell in love with.
• 19:33
  And what I love about a motto is that it teaches even if you
• 19:37
  have, let's say, issues with your father and you're married
• 19:40
  to a woman, that doesn't mean the issues with your father
• 19:43
  aren't going to come out with this woman.
• 19:44
  It will if he was the more dominant parent that harmed you
• 19:47
  or negatively influenced you. So really, it's exactly the
• 19:51
  same. Yeah, yeah.
• 19:52
  And so it could be either parent.
• 19:54
  It could, it's just the primary, it's not gender related.
• 19:56
  It's not gender related and the only thing I will say specific
• 20:00
  to gay and lesbian couples is the validation is hard.
• 20:03
  It's even harder for them because if I validate your
• 20:06
  experience, that's just how we're raised, then I have to
• 20:08
  invalidate my experience. So you're telling me I'm
• 20:11
  straight? OK, I'm straight, but I'm not.
• 20:14
  That gets contaminated in the room when they're fighting over
• 20:17
  something and getting them to say, you make sense to me from
• 20:20
  your point of view because now they're like, wait a minute, my
• 20:22
  point of view matters too. It does.
• 20:25
  We're just doing your partner first.
• 20:26
  We're going to get to you. And that can be difficult
• 20:28
  because you were raised differently.
• 20:30
  Are you curious about sexology? Do you want to further integrate
• 20:34
  sexology into your work or your life?
• 20:37
  Well friends, then we've got something just for you.
• 20:40
  It's called the Sexology Practice Guide and it walks you
• 20:43
  through the ways this shows up in your work in your life and
• 20:46
  guides you through working within your scope, incorporating
• 20:50
  intimacy and sexual health into your work without starting over.
• 20:55
  Download this short practical guide at sexologylab.com/guide.
• 21:00
  That's Sexology lab.com/guide and while you're here, make sure
• 21:06
  to subscribe and share. And now back to the show.
• 21:10
  And now what do clinicians often miss when working with sexual
• 21:13
  identity or gender identity? So much, actually.
• 21:17
  So much. It's the whole podcast.
• 21:20
  And I used to be one of these people, you know, because we
• 21:22
  didn't have all these nuances. We didn't know enough.
• 21:24
  We just knew gay and straight, we didn't get by.
• 21:27
  We didn't get asexual, even though Kinsey did.
• 21:29
  You know this Kinsey has an X Factor in the 40s and the 50s
• 21:33
  for asexuals. It's called The X Factor.
• 21:35
  People that were not sexual and we never addressed that.
• 21:38
  I feel like therapists don't understand that it's actually
• 21:40
  getting worse. They believe that how you behave
• 21:43
  and what you do is who you are. So if you're a straight man and
• 21:46
  you have sex with a man, you're no longer straight.
• 21:48
  That it's based on behavior, not attraction and not arousal and
• 21:52
  pleasure and identity and all the nuanced things that we do as
• 21:56
  sex therapists, we understand. All right, now I want to talk
• 21:58
  about clinical skills. What are the most important
• 22:01
  skills that a therapist needs to effectively facilitate Imago?
• 22:05
  They have to know how to do the intentional dialogue, which is
• 22:08
  101 of Imago, which is getting one person to be the sender and
• 22:11
  the receiver and teaching them that it's going to be one topic.
• 22:15
  They don't change to two different topics.
• 22:17
  It's one topic they both have to agree on.
• 22:19
  If they get flooded while they're doing this on either
• 22:21
  side, they can ask for a time out, I can't hear you anymore or
• 22:24
  I can't speak anymore because I'm overwhelmed.
• 22:26
  And that's fair to stop because otherwise you're trying to push
• 22:29
  for something that's going to be useless.
• 22:31
  The center has to learn to talk in the same voice tone that you
• 22:34
  would ask somebody to pass the salt and pepper at a dinner
• 22:36
  table. And that's hard to do when
• 22:38
  you're talking to your partner and you're upset.
• 22:39
  You want to say, and then you did it and that your partner is
• 22:42
  now defensive. So they have a responsibility.
• 22:44
  One or two sentences and the other partner has a
• 22:47
  responsibility in hearing them. What I hear you saying is did I
• 22:50
  get it? Is there more?
• 22:52
  And the sometimes I'll have them just talk about positive things
• 22:55
  so that they can get used to the whole communication style so
• 22:58
  that we then move to the negative.
• 22:59
  So what do you do if one of the partners isn't recognizing their
• 23:03
  tone? Because I thought that was
• 23:04
  really interesting when you said that tone piece.
• 23:06
  And So what if they're like, I'm not using a tone, my tone's the
• 23:09
  same as it always is. How do you address that in the
• 23:12
  room? Well, that's hard.
• 23:13
  And that's also hard because I don't know the couples all the
• 23:16
  time. They know each other's tone.
• 23:18
  So they'll be like, oh, you have a tone.
• 23:19
  And I'm like, I didn't hear a tone.
• 23:21
  I'll think that you know your partner is experiencing a tone,
• 23:24
  whether you mean to or not. Can you trust that for them?
• 23:26
  They're not able to hear you? And I want you to get heard.
• 23:29
  I want you to have the space for them to understand you.
• 23:32
  So are you willing to just go with what they think is
• 23:34
  happening, even if you don't agree?
• 23:36
  How can therapists manage counter transference when
• 23:40
  couples get highly activated? So hard.
• 23:43
  It's still hard for me 40 years later.
• 23:44
  Sometimes, you know, supervision and holding, whatever it is you
• 23:48
  can feel when you're getting antagonized, you can feel when
• 23:51
  you're getting pulled in. And even if you can't in the
• 23:53
  beginning, you will. And all of a sudden you're part
• 23:55
  of their fight now you've jumped into their system.
• 23:57
  You want to get a therapist to help you recognize what got
• 24:00
  triggered in you. Now good counter transference
• 24:03
  has happened to me all these years, which is my husband might
• 24:06
  have been trying to tell me something forever and we've had
• 24:09
  this fight forever. And then suddenly a client will
• 24:12
  have the exact same request for their partner.
• 24:15
  And I'm like, oh, that's what Mike's been saying to me all
• 24:18
  along. I can hear it in this guy.
• 24:20
  It clicks and I come home and say, I'm so sorry, I hear you
• 24:22
  now. But I had to hear it with non
• 24:24
  defensive ears. Oh I love that you said that so
• 24:26
  much because you don't really ever hear about good counter
• 24:28
  transference. Therapists are always talking
• 24:30
  about like, the negative side of it.
• 24:32
  Always. Yes, all right.
• 24:34
  Now, if you could design the ideal training for new sex
• 24:38
  therapists, what would it include?
• 24:40
  Fluidity, understanding sexual fluidity, gender fluidity, kinks
• 24:45
  and fetishes for them to learn about outer cores over
• 24:48
  intercourse. How to do with couples.
• 24:50
  A lot of sex therapists know how to work with individuals, but
• 24:53
  not necessarily how to effectively work with couples
• 24:55
  and integrating sexual health with them.
• 24:57
  Yeah. And I think that's so important
• 24:58
  because I think most people that you work with are going to
• 25:01
  either be in some sort of relationship or will be in some
• 25:05
  sort of relationship. You know, I think occasionally
• 25:08
  you'll have that one person who has no interest.
• 25:10
  But overall, most of your people are going to be involved in
• 25:13
  relationships in one form or another.
• 25:16
  Right. And really, I think the, the
• 25:17
  training, I love that we do this and already is challenging your
• 25:21
  own beliefs. The SARS are so incredibly
• 25:23
  helpful and immersing yourself in things so that you can find
• 25:27
  your disgust responses. And then you decide, maybe I'll
• 25:29
  never get over my disgust response.
• 25:31
  Great, I'll never work with that client.
• 25:33
  Or maybe I'll figure out what this is so that I can release
• 25:35
  that and be able to work with that person.
• 25:37
  I'm glad that you brought up the SAR because I get questions all
• 25:39
  the time from people tell me more like what is the SAR?
• 25:42
  What's the benefit? So what do you think is the
• 25:44
  overall benefit of attending a SAR and should you do them
• 25:48
  regularly? Should you do an advanced SAR?
• 25:50
  What is your thoughts? I agree I should do more myself.
• 25:53
  Sexuality is unending. It continues evolving and so you
• 25:57
  should be evolving to an understanding it.
• 25:59
  I actually had a SAR in the 80s and didn't even know it was.
• 26:02
  I was in my master's program for my MSW in 1985 and he showed us
• 26:07
  all these videos, these pornography videos of people who
• 26:10
  were disabled. This one man, he could only feel
• 26:12
  sexual pleasure in his anus. So we saw her rim him.
• 26:15
  We saw people in their 80s having sex with each other and
• 26:19
  bodies and, you know, just watching all different kinds of
• 26:22
  things I was never exposed to, which is exactly what it was
• 26:24
  good for me for, which was exposing me so that I now had a
• 26:28
  understanding. And when a client came in, I
• 26:30
  wasn't in the dark about those kinds of things.
• 26:32
  Be informed. Yeah, 100%.
• 26:34
  I think it's so beneficial because I think the type of
• 26:36
  material you watch individually is not going to be the type of
• 26:40
  material you see in a SAR. Like, you're going to see so
• 26:42
  many different things that maybe you didn't even think of, and
• 26:46
  it's important to know how you feel about those things.
• 26:48
  Yes, and be immersed in it, not just hearing about it, but
• 26:51
  watching it. And you can always close your
• 26:53
  eyes. You can always leave the room.
• 26:54
  I mean, nobody's forced to watch or see anything.
• 26:56
  And it's all consensual in SARS, and you're not watching things
• 26:59
  there between people that aren't consensual.
• 27:01
  It's all about informing and educating.
• 27:03
  Yeah, absolutely. Well, you're always invited to a
• 27:05
  Shaw SAR. I should do that.
• 27:07
  I really should, especially in advanced one.
• 27:09
  Let's talk about couples, intensives and workshop work.
• 27:13
  OK. So how is your approach
• 27:14
  different in intensive session versus weekly therapy?
• 27:17
  So I like doing intensives because I get people who are
• 27:21
  either stuck on something they can't get unstuck around and no
• 27:24
  amount of weekly therapy is helping them with enough time,
• 27:27
  or they're seeing another therapist and they're stuck and
• 27:30
  they want to come to me for just that one issue and then after
• 27:32
  that they go back to their therapist.
• 27:34
  For me, it's just one long therapy session.
• 27:37
  I don't have to look at a clock. We can go from Friday night all
• 27:40
  the way to Sunday. It's 20 hours.
• 27:42
  Their intensives because it's intense and your defenses drop
• 27:45
  the the longer you're in my room.
• 27:47
  And I use the Imago exercises. So there's intentional dialogue,
• 27:50
  there's behavior change request, there's parent child dialogue.
• 27:53
  I bring them all in it. I used to do workshops with
• 27:56
  multiple couples. Now I do those same things with
• 27:58
  just one couple following and tracking an issue that they're
• 28:02
  struggling with. I'm curious how you do these.
• 28:03
  So like is it a retreat situation?
• 28:05
  Do you go to a venue, hotel or how does it all work?
• 28:08
  It could be anything. They sometimes come to my
• 28:10
  office, sometimes I go to them, and then we go to a hotel and
• 28:14
  we're in like a group room in the hotel.
• 28:16
  Sometimes we do it on. It's all virtual and the whole
• 28:18
  weekend is virtual and my attention is all on them.
• 28:22
  I love it. I actually love doing it more
• 28:23
  than I love doing a regular session because I'm looking at
• 28:26
  that freaking clock. When people see you looking at a
• 28:28
  clock, they think, oh, you want to get done?
• 28:29
  No, I'm managing my time. I'm trying to think about how
• 28:31
  long I have to do this intervention with you.
• 28:33
  That's what I do during these interviews too.
• 28:35
  I'm like, OK, got to make sure that we end on time.
• 28:38
  I don't have to do that when we're doing an intensive I just,
• 28:40
  I keep going. Yeah, that's great for you and
• 28:42
  for the couple, but you both can be really immersed in the
• 28:46
  therapy sessions. Yes.
• 28:47
  And so let's say you have your own personal reaction in a
• 28:50
  therapy room. I have to help you through that,
• 28:51
  but I have to shorten it in a intensive we go until you get to
• 28:54
  the other side. We go until you work through.
• 28:56
  So what kind of breakthroughs do you see most often in the
• 28:59
  intensives? Oh my God, so many like people
• 29:02
  say I didn't see it from your point of view.
• 29:04
  I didn't really get it. Now I get it.
• 29:06
  Now I have more compassion for you now that I understand where
• 29:09
  this all comes from, especially if it's something sexual and
• 29:12
  it's caused the disgust response.
• 29:14
  But now you understand. Wait a minute.
• 29:15
  This comes from an early childhood wound or comes from
• 29:18
  something that happened to you is that could have been
• 29:20
  positive. And it's not about you being an
• 29:22
  objectifying patriarchal pervert.
• 29:25
  It's about you enjoying something that has gotten melded
• 29:29
  into your Eroticism. Do you ever find it's too
• 29:31
  intense for people and they like get up and walk out and they're
• 29:34
  like, I can't do this right now? Yep, and we take lots and lots
• 29:37
  and lots of breaks and sometimes we end for the day earlier and I
• 29:40
  make room for that and then we maybe don't finish that weekend
• 29:42
  so we come back to it and I'm all good.
• 29:44
  Some couples will say we only want to do do half of it.
• 29:46
  Can we only do 4 hours? Can we only do six hours?
• 29:48
  Totally fine as long as I'm not watching that clock.
• 29:51
  Oh, that's so interesting and that's such a good service that
• 29:53
  you offer to people. Thank you all.
• 29:56
  Right now, what is 1 case that's changed how you practice?
• 30:01
  My immediate is that one couple who came in who could only have
• 30:04
  sex a certain way with each other.
• 30:06
  They were a gay male couple. Now they were in an open
• 30:09
  relationship, so they were having sex with other people in
• 30:12
  the way they thought they should love having sex.
• 30:14
  Intercourse was topping, bottoming, but together, that
• 30:17
  wasn't their style. And I think what they taught me,
• 30:19
  because we got to the end, and at the time, I wasn't a sex
• 30:22
  therapist, so I felt like I failed them and they felt failed
• 30:24
  because they had wanted to change their style to what they
• 30:27
  were wanting it to be. But I feel like it was a success
• 30:30
  going back to it. I would be like, you know what?
• 30:32
  No, this is your style. It's OK.
• 30:35
  Go do what you want to do with these other people.
• 30:36
  You have an open marriage, and you're good with that and with
• 30:39
  each other. Be good with this.
• 30:40
  Stop trying to morph into something that's not true for
• 30:43
  the two of you. Yeah.
• 30:44
  Exactly. You don't have to follow like
• 30:46
  this ideal that you were taught or you know, shown.
• 30:49
  Or maybe that's not even realistic.
• 30:51
  It's just something you thought of in your head or society has
• 30:53
  pushed on to you. Yes, that should be in context
• 30:56
  of a committed relationship. You get online, a lot of people
• 30:58
  have a lot of things to say. You're not sleeping in the same
• 31:01
  room. You're not living in the same
• 31:02
  house. You're not, you're not, you're
• 31:03
  not, you're not a couple. Sorry, you're roommates.
• 31:05
  I want to say on these comments back to them, go fuck yourself.
• 31:08
  That's a version of a couple. You stay on your lane, you know?
• 31:12
  Yeah. Oh, 100%.
• 31:13
  All right. So I want to talk a little bit
• 31:15
  about business with you. And so you run a private
• 31:19
  practice. So what is your favorite thing
• 31:21
  about that and what is most challenging?
• 31:23
  Solo is so much easier and just isolating is probably.
• 31:27
  That's why I started the group. It's so isolating and I didn't
• 31:30
  like that. I mean, it's nice to have
• 31:32
  colleagues like you and go to Shawn, but then you come back to
• 31:34
  your own lonely little office where now I have like 22
• 31:37
  therapists that work for me. What I like the most about it is
• 31:39
  the energy I see in these younger therapists that I forget
• 31:42
  I had. I still have a lot of energy,
• 31:44
  but it's different energy and there's, they're still bright
• 31:46
  and bushy and wanting to learn and soak up.
• 31:49
  And I love that. I love giving them clients to
• 31:51
  work with. I love seeing that and having
• 31:53
  that opportunity to give back to early young therapists.
• 31:56
  And then the hardest thing, I hate when there's a problem or I
• 31:58
  have to reprimand a therapist. It doesn't happen a lot, but
• 32:01
  something happens or they fight over, let's say rooms or I don't
• 32:05
  know, just things that come up or business stuff that I have to
• 32:07
  think about. And now I have employees.
• 32:09
  So like now I have an admin team.
• 32:11
  I'm not a boss. I've had to learn how to be a
• 32:13
  boss. If I could have made the kind of
• 32:15
  money I made in private for practice, I would have been
• 32:17
  somebody's employee and I would have been fine moving up.
• 32:19
  But I couldn't. The only way to make a really
• 32:22
  good living was for me to go off on my own, when were I
• 32:24
  quadrupled my income, and then to go into group practice where
• 32:28
  I've more than quadrupled my income.
• 32:30
  Wow, that's incredible. So what advice do you have for a
• 32:34
  therapist who are thinking about starting a group practice?
• 32:36
  Don't do it. Just don't.
• 32:39
  Just don't. It's so hard, but it gets easier
• 32:42
  if you have the right team and I haven't had the right team.
• 32:44
  I picked the wrong people in the beginning, so I shouldn't say
• 32:47
  don't do it. I mean, if I went back, I
• 32:49
  probably wouldn't do it because if I knew what was going to
• 32:51
  happen to me and how hard it was going to be and all the growth
• 32:54
  and then other people, it's so easy.
• 32:55
  I supervise this one guy and he was like, yeah, I'm going to
• 32:58
  have a virtual arm and do that. And then I'm going to do this.
• 33:01
  And I went to his website recently.
• 33:02
  He has like 60 therapists. Like it wasn't easy for me, but
• 33:06
  I have learned. And what it does to remind
• 33:08
  yourself is it targets your own issues.
• 33:10
  My issues about being in charge. I come from a family that if I
• 33:13
  said to them, I need or want this, they would look at me
• 33:15
  like, tough, you're not going to get it.
• 33:16
  And the more you tell us what you want, the more you're not
• 33:19
  going to get it. So I, I've never been good at,
• 33:20
  hey, I need this and I need you to stop so that this can happen
• 33:23
  here. And I've had to learn how to get
• 33:24
  better at it, which is great. It's been great therapy for me.
• 33:28
  Yeah, it like pushes you to grow and learn new things that you
• 33:31
  never thought you would be doing, but it's like the
• 33:33
  universe just gives you that push.
• 33:35
  Totally. And I am the kind of guy that
• 33:37
  something so I've been like this the whole my whole career.
• 33:39
  Oh, that sounds fun. I'm going to do that.
• 33:41
  Oh, I'm going to join that. I'm going to write that book.
• 33:44
  And then I'm in the middle of I'm like, what was my problem?
• 33:46
  I can't get out of it now. I'm in the middle of something,
• 33:49
  it's so hard and I don't want to do it, but I finish everything I
• 33:52
  started and I'm glad I do. Yeah, I love that.
• 33:54
  Yeah, I do that too. And there's a lot of therapists
• 33:56
  that don't, and they're afraid. And I say, don't let that be in
• 33:58
  your way. Do it anyways.
• 33:59
  Start a small group and then see how that goes.
• 34:02
  And then it changes the more therapists that you have.
• 34:04
  So something I've noticed happening to me as I'm getting a
• 34:06
  little older is like one day I was at the doctor's office and
• 34:10
  there was a nurse and she was 21.
• 34:12
  And I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm going to trust you to draw my
• 34:15
  blood and take care of me. And I was kind of startled by
• 34:17
  that. And so have you experienced this
• 34:20
  with like younger therapists and that they're coming to you or
• 34:23
  you're training them and you're like, Oh my gosh, like you're so
• 34:25
  young, you're so green. Like do you have any concerns
• 34:28
  there? Yes.
• 34:29
  And so then I just require them to be in supervision.
• 34:31
  We have a clinical supervisor at my practice.
• 34:33
  I demand that they go to her once a week, they be in Group
• 34:36
  once a week so that they work on if they're unwilling to like
• 34:39
  I've had some therapists who don't keep their clients because
• 34:42
  they don't know how, they don't know how to sell.
• 34:44
  It's it really is like a sales pitch to a client to say, yeah,
• 34:47
  you came here here for this pressing issue, but it's all
• 34:49
  related to this other issue that you really should work on.
• 34:52
  You're going to come back. If you don't know how to do
• 34:54
  that, I have to teach you when I have a therapist say, hey, I
• 34:56
  don't want to do that. I'm like, that's fine.
• 34:58
  Thank you for your honesty. You don't belong.
• 35:00
  You shouldn't be in the field if you're not going to be a better
• 35:02
  therapist. Have you noticed like any
• 35:04
  differences like generational differences working with the
• 35:06
  Gen. Z new therapist versus a
• 35:09
  millennial versus Gen. X and etcetera?
• 35:11
  I don't know the specifics. I do know that what's gotten
• 35:14
  lost is the genogram family histories.
• 35:16
  A lot of therapists don't do it. That personally and
• 35:18
  professionally bothers me to death.
• 35:20
  You have no idea if you're a therapist that can learn
• 35:22
  somebody's family history over time.
• 35:23
  Great. I'm not that guy.
• 35:25
  I have to sit with a couple or the individual and do an entire
• 35:28
  session on your family and not just for information, but how
• 35:31
  are you replaying this in your life?
• 35:32
  Oh, I know a little bit about your story now.
• 35:34
  This between your mother and yourself and you were 10.
• 35:37
  This is the same thing and helping them make those
• 35:39
  connections. A lot of that is lost.
• 35:41
  I think there's it's good to get more certifications.
• 35:43
  The more you get, the more you learn.
• 35:45
  It is robbed people of trusting themselves.
• 35:47
  Oh, I can't do that then. Until I learned.
• 35:49
  No, no, yes you can. You can try those things.
• 35:51
  We still have skills if we don't get that certification.
• 35:55
  And I find a lot of times therapists are doing things,
• 35:57
  even if it's little pieces in practice anyway, they're just
• 36:00
  maybe not realizing it in the moment.
• 36:03
  Right. And they don't know how to
• 36:04
  formalize the understanding of it and then presenting it to a
• 36:06
  client. All right.
• 36:07
  Last thing I want to talk about is social media.
• 36:10
  So you're pretty active on social media.
• 36:13
  So what do you enjoy about that? Well, I have always enjoyed
• 36:16
  marketing, which is why I think I've been so successful.
• 36:19
  So my mother used to say to me, this is really, turns out it's a
• 36:22
  negative thing, but I've turned it into something positive.
• 36:24
  She'd say, Joey, you're going to be a celebrity, you're going to
• 36:27
  be a movie star, luck always finds you, blah, blah, blah.
• 36:30
  And she really never saw me. She wanted me to be a celebrity.
• 36:34
  She wanted all that. I kind of went that route.
• 36:36
  And between that and for me not being seen in a narcissistic
• 36:40
  family, I became narcissistically defended.
• 36:42
  I call it where I hold on to myself and I like to to see
• 36:45
  myself in print. I like to see myself in videos.
• 36:47
  I feel like I'm alive and I'm seen.
• 36:49
  And that has worked for me because you see every day I'm
• 36:52
  writing videos. A bit prior to that, I used to
• 36:54
  do mailings. I used to love to sneak into
• 36:56
  people's mailboxes and all the night and then you wake up and
• 36:59
  there's joke court. But it wasn't just joke court,
• 37:01
  it was what I believe in. LGBT, kink, sexuality, all this
• 37:05
  trauma, abuse. I think I just want to be in
• 37:08
  people's faces whether they like it or not.
• 37:10
  And one last thing I'll say is I never saw myself as
• 37:13
  controversial and I had a really good coach, Lynn Grotsky, she's
• 37:16
  a really good coach. And she said to me one day, you
• 37:18
  know, you're controversial and I think you like it.
• 37:20
  And she didn't mean it, mean you.
• 37:22
  Know. What I don't don't say that
• 37:24
  that's a terrible And then I I was done.
• 37:26
  I was like, she's right. I do like it.
• 37:28
  I love when someone comes back and challenges me, even when I
• 37:31
  don't like it, but I'm not going to shy away from it because I
• 37:33
  believe in what I've learned. Oh yeah.
• 37:35
  And some of my favorite videos that you do are when you have
• 37:37
  like the comment from somebody up in the corner and you're
• 37:40
  reading it and it's usually something controversial like,
• 37:44
  and I love it. Those comments could be my
• 37:45
  teachers. Those comments are prompts for
• 37:47
  me to push harder at what I believe in.
• 37:49
  And that's marketing. And therapists have to be
• 37:52
  willing to be brave enough to be attacked.
• 37:54
  I can't tell you how much I've been attacked.
• 37:56
  I cared in the beginning. I don't care anymore.
• 37:57
  Yeah, I mean, that's the thing with social media.
• 38:00
  I mean, people behind a keyboard will just come out and say
• 38:03
  anything and you got to be prepared.
• 38:06
  Yeah, I just had a guy say to me.
• 38:07
  I said he said, where are you getting all this?
• 38:09
  I don't believe that. I'm like, well, I've a therapist
• 38:11
  for 40 years and I've researched and I'm done clinical and I've
• 38:14
  read the research. Well, I've been a gay man 40
• 38:16
  years. And so I don't believe you.
• 38:18
  I'm like, oh, well, that Trump's everything, doesn't it?
• 38:20
  You've just been a gay man and I've been in the field.
• 38:22
  I guess you win. Then I delete it all because,
• 38:24
  like, he hooked me, right? And so I got into some stupid
• 38:27
  fight with some idiot, you know. I know, but it's hard.
• 38:31
  It's so hard. OK, I want to do a lightning
• 38:33
  round with you. OK, So just say like the first
• 38:35
  thing that comes to mind. All right, I've got a couple
• 38:38
  questions here. 1 myth about Imago that you'd like to
• 38:40
  correct. That it keeps you stuck into
• 38:43
  your childhood. One trauma informed principal
• 38:45
  every therapist should follow. That you can go from trauma
• 38:48
  reenactment to trauma play and it can be healthy.
• 38:51
  A clinical habit you wish more therapists would adopt.
• 38:54
  Self reflection. All right, next one, a question
• 38:57
  you always ask couples. Asking them to to engage in
• 39:00
  what's called a bragging and appreciation, something they did
• 39:03
  to stretch out of their comfort zone and something they saw
• 39:05
  their partner do they want to appreciate.
• 39:07
  I ask that every session. Oh, I like that a lot.
• 39:09
  That's great. All right.
• 39:10
  And then the last lightning Round question.
• 39:12
  One book or resource every therapist should read.
• 39:15
  Jack Morin's book Erotic Mind, because that book tells you
• 39:19
  everything about how our sexual fantasies many times have
• 39:22
  threads to our past. If you could leave a message for
• 39:26
  the next generation about sexual health, what would your message
• 39:30
  be to those Gen. Z's and Gen. alphas out there?
• 39:33
  You don't know everything. Know that you know what you
• 39:36
  know, but be willing to keep learning and go and challenge
• 39:39
  the things you think. You're so hard pressed that this
• 39:42
  is the way it is because the younger generation believes they
• 39:45
  know everything and they're so solid in it.
• 39:47
  And I think that's a mistake. They're going to.
• 39:49
  It's going to come back to bite them.
• 39:50
  Really good advice. Now, before we go, I want to
• 39:53
  talk about your experience as a presenter with Sexual Health
• 39:57
  Alliance. It's been, I have to be honest,
• 40:00
  one of the best. You're warm, you're inviting,
• 40:02
  you're friendly, You work with me.
• 40:04
  If something happens that's not going correctly, you're right
• 40:07
  there to help me. And I feel really held when I do
• 40:10
  a presentation with Shaw. Oh.
• 40:12
  I love hearing that. It's.
• 40:14
  True. All right.
• 40:15
  Well, thank you so much for being with us today, Doctor Joe
• 40:18
  Court. Thank you, Michelle.
• 40:20
  It's great being here. Thanks.
• 40:22
  All right, Bye everyone. Don't forget to subscribe on
• 40:26
  YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen.
• 40:31
  Links are in the description below.