Latest / The Remnant Radio's Podcast / What Is the Battle of Armageddon? Revelation 16 Explained | Michael Rowntree

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What Is the Battle of Armageddon? Revelation 16 Explained | Michael Rowntree · The Remnant Radio's Podcast

0:51
SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: My name is Joshua Lewis.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm with Michael Roundtree today.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: We're talking about Armageddon.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be an exciting program.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: You guys stay tuned.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: We hope you guys have been enjoying this series going through, man, the book of Revelation and more specifically Michael's book on the world made right that he has published with Zonervin.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: Links in the description.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: Shameless plug.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: But man, this has been a fantastic series.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: We've been going through, man, quite a lot of material.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: We've done Mark of the Beast language, we've done Pre-Trip, Rapture, we've tackled, man, quite a few things when it comes to the Antichrist.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: Now we're looking at Armageddon.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm I'm looking forward to personally, longing for the day that we can talk on the millennium.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: We might even already be in the millennial reign, depending on how you view it by the time we get there.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, yeah, if if if it takes us super long to get there, then you know the the uh historic pre-mal guys would say, hey, look, we could be in the millennium by the time that happens because of Christ turn.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
1:54
SPEAKER_00: We'll try not to take a thousand years.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: We'll try not to take a thousand years to get to that episode.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: But I've been really enjoying the season.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: Today we're talking about Armageddon.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: Michael, you want to tell us a little bit what we're looking forward to?
2:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Armageddon.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: Well, so you have, I mean, a variety of interpretations, and and I'll show I think I'd rather like build toward my interpretation as we just dialogue back and forth, Josh.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: But maybe I can start with what my interpretation is not.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: My interpretation of Armageddon is not that Jews and Gentiles are slogging it out in some battlefield, either some some will say in a battlefield north of Jerusalem, Megiddo.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: Either they're battling there or maybe they're assembling there, and then it's moving toward Jerusalem.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: Either way, I don't think that's what the battle of Armageddon is about.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: The word Armageddon is mentioned one time in the Bible, although there are many eschatological battles foretold in the Old Testament, and John in his revelation passages is riffing off of these.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: Yes, he's having genuine visions, but his visions hyperlink to these Old Testament battles.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: And so there are lots of questions around it.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, if you're premillennialist, you believe that there are basically really two last battles.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: There's Armageddon at the end of this age, and then there's another battle at the end of the millennium.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: And then dispensationalists will tend to say, actually, there's three kind of last battles, and there's Gog Magog toward the end of the age, but not the absolute end of the age, and then there is Armageddon, and then after that, at the end of the millennium, there is a third great conflagration.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: I would say there's one last battle.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: That that's where I would land.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: And and even the word battle, I would interpret it differently than I would say many.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: Well, I I don't want to paint with too broad of a brush.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of people who take it as a literal battle, a literal battle that's happening with Jews and Gentiles.
4:03
SPEAKER_01: I even I even had a Christian friend tell me one time that he believes that in Armageddon, we Christians, Gentile Christians, will join Israel and maybe God will give us bazookas or machine guns, and we're just gonna go blowing people's heads off in Armageddon.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: And not only am I like, no thanks, but also that is that is not what this passage is about.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: I I'm confident of that.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: So I don't believe that's that it's a a literal conventional geopolitical warfare, and I don't believe there are multiple last battles.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: I I believe there is one last battle, and that battle I would want to or I would interpret on a more symbolic way, and we'll get to that.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of what we're gonna need to work through, Josh.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: We'll probably need to work through maybe some of the problems with the literal interpretation, maybe get to that's we're building toward positively why I take the approach that I do.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: So, and then we'll just kind of bounce off of each other and see where it goes.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll give me maybe the argumentation from the other side of the aisle, because I mean you just described this picture of Israel, you know, being in this kind of great last conflict, and the I think the assumption is the people of God, in some sense, have joined with them to war against the nations.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: At least that seems to be the language that I'm seeing uh in the certainly in the political space, that we've got to align ourselves with Israel because there's this end times battle, and we've got to be their protectors as Christians.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: That is at least being discussed.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: What's the what's the framework for, I mean, some of that idea, like the idea that this is an actual literal battle that is going to emerge in the end times?
5:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I want to answer really, I want to speak to two things.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: One is where does this idea come from that it is conventional warfare that's being discussed in Revelation 16?
6:01
SPEAKER_01: And then secondly, you touched on something else, which is the interpretation that therefore, because there's this conventional warfare, this geopolitical battle where all the nations are turning on Israel in the last days, if we want to be a sheep nation, so to speak, borrowing from Matthew chapter 25, then we need to support Israel geopolitically, no matter what.
6:27
SPEAKER_01: And if we align geopolitically with Israel, we're safe.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: And again, I don't want to paint too broad a brush, and people will nuance all of these things.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: It's too hard to put in there every nuance, but but that's generally, it's like politically support Israel at all costs, and that will somehow help you be safe in Armageddon.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: So I'll I'll also want to address that.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: So let's start.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: I want to actually open to the Armageddon passage, Revelation chapter 16, and it says this.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna start with the sixth angel who's gonna pour out his bowl, beginning in verse 12.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh, the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and it and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the east.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs, for they are demonic spirits, performing signs who go abroad to the kings of the whole world to assemble them for the battle on the great day of God the Almighty.
7:31
SPEAKER_01: Behold, and this is Jesus speaking, I am coming like a thief.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not be go about naked and be seen exposed.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: And so I think the first thing that I would say is it's not crazy that people think of this as conventional warfare as a geopolitical battle.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: It's talking about kings.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: There are kings from the east, there are other kings as well who are coming into a battlefield and they're going to war.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: This is all warfare imagery, and that warfare imagery is rooted in the old testament.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: So Ezekiel 38 to 39, talk about the famous Gog-Magog war, and you can go back and read that, but it's basically Israel at the last second.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: So you've got Ezekiel 38 to 39, Joel chapter 3, verses 9 to 15 is another big one where the nations prepare for war and but God gathers them actually for judgment.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: You've got Zechariah 12 and Zechariah 14.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: Here you have Jerusalem surrounded.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: That would be the most common picture in the Old Testament of what looks to be something of an eschatological battle.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: Is Jerusalem surrounded?
8:52
SPEAKER_01: And so you'll have some people who are trying to harmonize where the nations are gathering in Megiddo, which is a field that's not in Jerusalem.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: It's outside of Jerusalem to the north.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: But then in addition, you'll you'll see these battle images involving Jerusalem.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: And so they'll say, well, they gather here, but then they head south to Jerusalem, and then they're surrounding Israel, and it's conventional warfare.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: So that's where that's coming from, Josh.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think it's crazy to come away with that interpretation.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: It's the literal approach.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: And and I have reasons that we can walk through for why I think a symbolic approach actually makes sense here.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: In fact, even this one verse, I lost it because I just closed my Bible, but the sixth bowl is associated with the Euphrates, which is interesting because the sixth trumpet is also associated with the Euphrates.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: When you look at the trumpets in the bowls, they they run in parallel.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: It's almost like the it's the same kind of language for most of them, like the first with the first and the second with the second.
9:55
SPEAKER_01: Well, here the sixth with the sixth, they both mention the Euphrates, and it seems to be something of a military boundary, seems to hearken back to what we know from the Old Testament, where under Cyrus, during the low water, the low water month around September, October, the the Euphrates was essentially dried up and and he during a dry month, he diverted it and then went and was able to penetrate the walls of Babylon through like picture like a sewer gate, and he invaded and took over Babylon.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: And so Cyrus and the Persians took over the Babylonians.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's interesting when you get to Revelation 17, the river Euphrates isn't we actually are given the interpretation of this that this that this woman who sits on many waters, the the river Euphrates, she's sitting on like the the river Euphrates represents the people.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: Every like all these people of the nations that Babylon essentially is kind of ruling over.
10:55
SPEAKER_01: And so we we already have some precedent for some symbolic interpretation because Revelation 17 directly addresses that with the with the river Euphrates, but neither here nor there.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: I can understand why people take it literally.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: I think we have good reasons to consider it uh not literal.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: Uh the one other passage I might mention is gosh, there's so many more.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: There's Psalm 2, there's Daniel 11, but I'll I'll stop there, Josh.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: For we we've been arguing uh Psalm 2 quite a bit with Miller about uh anyway, not you and me and Miller.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: I think that last part of the passage I need to address that I read, because I read that whole thing, and you you recall where Jesus says toward the end of that section, like, hey, I'm coming like a thief, blessed is the one who's not going about naked, like who's actually clothed, so he's not just gonna be exposed at my coming.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's interesting too, because in between the sixth and seventh seal, in between the sixth and seventh trumpet, there is a delay, a long delay that takes place in the telling.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: But when you get to Revelation 6 and 7, there's another interruption.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: But instead of Jesus delaying, he says, Hey, actually, I'm coming soon.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: My coming is right around the corner.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: And so I do believe the bowls are poured out at the very end.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: The trumpets operate more as like a warning, like the end is really soon.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: The bowls are like at the conclusion of the bowls, he says, It is done.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: Like the wrath of God is finished.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: And so I do believe Armageddon is uh is part of that.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: But the the point that I want to make is Jesus is telling us what makes us safe in Armageddon.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: And notice what he says, and notice what he doesn't say.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't say hope that you live in a nation that supports geopolitical Israel.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't say that.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: Instead, what he says is put your clothes on, which you know, the the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
12:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's basically like live for Jesus, live as though he's returning.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: You see in Revelation 2 to 3, the way the churches are to prepare is they are to repent of their sins and to and to bear fruits in keeping with repentance.
13:03
SPEAKER_01: And so if we want to be safe when Armageddon comes, love Jesus.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: Put your faith in Jesus, repent and turn to Jesus, love Jesus.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: And and a Christ worshiper who's living in Iran, even if Iran happens to be attacking Israel around that time, like either way, I mean, Iran's always going to be against Israel.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just kind of the way it is, it's the way it's always played out.
13:28
SPEAKER_01: But if you're a Christ worshiper in Iran, you will be I could I should that's the text is in me, Iran, you'll be safe in Armageddon.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: But if you are living in the heart of Israel and they're throwing all kinds of resources and supporting them in some kind of battle, but you hate Christ, you're not going to be safe in Armageddon.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: Christ's own words, if you want to be safe in Armageddon, it has nothing to do with the choices your political leaders happen to make.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: Safety in Armageddon is do you love Jesus and are you living for him?
14:05
SPEAKER_01: So you'll be safe.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so uh let's make some of the argumentation here from the scriptures.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: You you you you paraphrased a few of them and you said, hey, look, there are other scriptures in the notes in your book.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: You've listed out Ezekiel 38 and 39, Joel 3, Zechariah 12, Zachariah 14, Psalm 2, Daniel 11.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: All of those seem to be speaking of a end times eschatological battle.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: You talked about Revelation 16 just a moment ago.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: Revelation 16 is going to describe a siege, armies, Jerusalem, Israel, the Lord fighting on their behalf.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: So this is all physical language.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: It seems to be physical, literal language in the prophets.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: It seems at least one could read Revelation 16 and come out with a physical literal interpretation of that before I give you the chance to make an argumentation for maybe a more symbolic interpretation, a kind of prophetic picture that is taking place.
15:02
SPEAKER_00: How would you respond to people who are like they're really digging in their heels here?
15:06
SPEAKER_00: Going, look, it's been predicted over and over that this battle will take place this way.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: And you're not denying that there is a battle, but you're you're going, well, maybe it's maybe it's more symbolic than we'd like to think it is.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: Would you respond to some of that?
15:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, we have to pay attention to the way that Greek w word there, which can be translated battle, can be translated war.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: The way that's translated throughout the book of Revelation, and and usually it's translated in a way that it is usually translated as war.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: However, it's in a context of persecution.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: So for instance, Revelation 11:7, there's a beast that arises from the abyss and it makes war on the two witnesses.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: And and why?
15:49
SPEAKER_01: Because they're testifying to Jesus.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: And so these two witnesses are they're gonna die, they're gonna rise again, they're gonna be vindicated.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: There's a whole story that goes with that that we don't have time for.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: But first of all, I would say it's it would be very strange to declare geopolitical conventional warfare on two dudes if we're gonna go with a literal approach.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: And so I would say that the two witnesses actually represent the church, and we've talked about that before, and I think a strong case can be made for that.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: They're called two lampstands, and every other time in Revelation, lampstand refers to the church, and I believe this is talking about the prophetic witness of the church.
16:28
SPEAKER_01: By prophetic, I'm talking about testifying to Jesus and the gospel, and and so there is a beast that arises from the from the abyss and makes war on them.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: So there, it doesn't look like conventional warfare, it looks like persecution.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: And that is right before Jesus returns at the end of Revelation 11.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: There are a few mentions of Jesus, there's there are a few occasions where Jesus returns in the book of Revelation.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: We call that recapitulation.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: It will cycle through the same scene, getting closer and closer to the action throughout.
16:59
SPEAKER_01: So there, that's Revelation 11.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: You see the same thing happening in Revelation 12, where Satan is making war on the offspring of the woman, and those who keep to the testimony of Jesus go back and watch our episode on Israel.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: I believe these are people who love Jesus, whether Jew or Gentile.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: And I think that bears out when we consider yes, Israel is part of the image there with the woman who has the 12 stars over her head, etc.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: That's straight out of Genesis 37, speaking of Israel.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: But it also goes, stretches further back to Eve and the curse pronounced over the serpent that talks about a war between the woman's offspring and the serpent's offspring.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: Revelation 12 uses that same language.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: So it's not just geopolitical Israel, it's spiritual Israel, it's the messianic community, and Satan makes war on them.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: Looks like persecution, not conventional warfare between nations.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: And then you get to Revelation chapter 13, and it's very overt.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: The beast of the sea is again making war on those who love Jesus, on those who keep his commandments, and those who are faithful.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: And so again, it's not conventional warfare, it's persecution.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: And you see this, and so my point is there is a pattern where the enemy is making war on God's people throughout the book of Revelation.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: And each time, I will say most of the times that's used, it's pretty clearly talking about persecution.
18:31
SPEAKER_01: And I think this is pointing us in a direction that what was envisioned as conventional warfare against Israel, because anytime a prophet has a vision, the question you have to ask is, what does the vision mean?
18:44
SPEAKER_01: Because as a scene plays out, the scene, most visions and most dreams are not literally interpreted.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: That's just prophetic, like Numbers chapter 12.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: It says, hey, I speak to a prophet and dreams and visions and riddles and dark sayings.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: These are cryptic.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: You have to interpret.
18:59
SPEAKER_01: And what I'm saying is there's a pattern of make war representing persecution.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: And John's not inventing this idea either.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: This is how, I mean, Psalm 2, another Armageddon passage about the nations conspiring against the Lord and his anointed, that is, against Christ.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: In Acts chapter 4, the apostles and their friends are going to pray, and they're going to quote that very passage, and they're going to apply it to how the nations conspired against Jesus, and then they're going to further apply it to how they're conspiring against them.
19:29
SPEAKER_01: And now they need boldness to continue going.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: So what Psalm 2 envisioned is war, they're referring to as persecution against God's people.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: And what I would say is that's part of what's happening in Armageddon.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: The last thing that I'll say that's pointing towards symbolism, in my opinion, away from conventional warfare and more toward persecution, as we've already been over this, so I'm not going to believe in other other episodes, I'm not going to belabor it too much.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: But John hears that there is a lion.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: That is, he's he's a lion like the lion of the tribe of Judah.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: This speaks of a military messiah who's going to pounce on his enemies.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: This is how the Jewish people would have viewed it.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: That image, it was a lion was a military image.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: And then he sees a lamb who was slain.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: And so they expected a military messiah, got a martyr messiah.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: And then in Revelation chapter 7, a census is taken, and a census, I mean, yeah, the fighting men are counted, 12,000 people from each of the 12 tribes.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: He hears a number, and then he sees innumerable martyrs in heaven.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: And I would say, just like the lion is the lamb, the numbered Jewish tribes are the innumerable martyrs.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: Once again, they expected military victory in the last days, a last days army to follow their last days Messiah.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: And they will follow their last days Messiah, but God is punching through their expectations that this idea of military overthrow that they're expecting is not actually it.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: They're actually going to lay their lives down for the nations.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: And through that, people of every tongue, tribe, and nation will be saved.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: And that's what we see in Revelation 7, where all these martyrs are in heaven.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: And so we shouldn't be surprised if God continues to punch through our expectations where we're expecting military conquest and make war ends up being persecution.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: And I believe that the persecution, the global state-sponsored persecution of the church at the very end of the age, is part of, it's actually not the main part, but is part of what's happening in Armageddon.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: And and when he talks about like um, I mean, even the word Armageddon, so R Megedon, Mageddon speaks of Megiddo, which is a plain north of Jerusalem.
21:56
SPEAKER_01: And R comes from the Hebrew har, and John's kind of seems like maybe translitering it, transliterating it, but he put the two together, and it's basically like Mount Megiddo, which is really weird because when you look throughout the rest of the Old Testament, Megiddo is a plain, it's not a mountain.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: It would be like if I said, Hey, if you lived in America and I'm and you told me, like, hey, I where are you going for vacation?
22:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm going to Mount Grand Canyon.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: People look at you like, wait, what?
22:24
SPEAKER_01: There's no such thing.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: Like, are you inventing geography?
22:28
SPEAKER_01: And it's the same, like, Mount Megiddo doesn't exist.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes people are like, well, Mount Carmel's not too far away, but you know, Mount Carmel has its own name.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: It's called Mount Carmel, not Mount Megiddo.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: And so what I believe is happening is that in this adjacent context, he's been setting up Mount Zion, and now it's Mount Megiddo.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: You will.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: And Megiddo came to represent this place of battle.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: Napoleon actually visited it and said this would be the best battlefield ever.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: And you see some battles take place there in the Old Testament.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: But I don't believe this is a battle between Jew and Gentile.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: I believe this is a battle between two mountains, which represent two kingdoms.
23:11
SPEAKER_01: It's the kingdom of God versus the kingdom of darkness.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: And it's a it's a spiritual battle that manifests in the form of persecution, but it doesn't stop a persecution.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: That's only the first part of it.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: And the ultimate part gets much better for the people of God.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: Okay, but I I've got I still have questions here.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, I you know I had brought up these passages in Ezekiel, Joel, those sorts of passages.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: And I can make sense of why Joel would use figurative language to speak of the end, right?
23:41
SPEAKER_00: I could understand Ezekiel using figurative language to speak of a spiritual battle because it had been concealed to them that truth.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: But here, like what you know, or even like Zechariah, I taught through Zechariah and I go, hey, I think the way Zechariah is using the word Jerusalem all throughout is pointing to the church.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: And he refers to Judah as Israel.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I've got no problem seeing those kinds of connections there.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: However, you know, John uses the language of Israel.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: Why, why would John use that language in a text like this?
24:12
SPEAKER_00: It's not like he doesn't know, or like maybe maybe he doesn't.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: Is it concealed to him the meaning of the vision?
24:18
SPEAKER_00: I I don't understand the purpose behind all of that.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I think we have to take I think we have to take into account progressive revelation.
24:28
SPEAKER_01: So when God was speaking to Israel about what would happen in the last days, the mystery of the church had not yet been revealed.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: Go back and read Ephesians 3, 6.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: And it talks about and start with Ephesians chapter 2, where Paul says, hey, there's a new, like, it's no longer just the Jews, and it's not even Jew or Gentile.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: It's actually there's one new man.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: It's like in the early church, would sometimes call this the third race.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: The dividing wall of hostility has been broken down in Christ Jesus.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: And so Jew and Gentiles, Jews and Gentiles who place their faith in Christ Jesus became part of become part of the same singular family of God.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: And then you continue reading into chapter three, and the apostle Paul says, hey, this was a mystery not revealed to our fathers before, but now being revealed to the apostles and prophets.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: And he describes these apostles and prophets as the foundation of God's eschatological temple with Christ as the chief cornerstone.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: And what makes them foundational is they've had this revelation that Gentiles are included in the same family of God, and they have the same access to the promises of God.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: And so that actually wasn't known by Joel.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't known by David.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't known by Isaiah.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't known by Zechariah.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't known by anybody that had anything to say about any kind of last battle.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: And so God spoke to them in images that they could understand, conventional warfare against the nation of Israel, because they had no conception of the new man, the third race, the church, which consists of both Jews and Gentiles.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: And so that mystery hadn't been revealed.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: I would chalk it up to a progressive revelation.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: Here's a quote from my book.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: I say, as a wise father, God did the same thing with Old Testament saints, progressively revealing himself in age-appropriate ways throughout history.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: In the age of the prophets, God had not yet revealed the mystery of a global multi-ethnic church, Ephesians 3, 6.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: So they could never have understood Armageddon in anything but nationalistic terms.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: Now that God has revealed the mystery of the church, he has also unveiled the mystery of Armageddon.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: Nationalistic militaristic images centered on Israel symbolize a global state-sponsored persecution against Christ, against his multi-ethnic church.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: Rather than lying by the mouths of the prophets, God told the truth in words they could fathom.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: And I said that last part because a lot of times people say, ah, well, then God lied because he said it was going to be conventional warfare.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: No, he communicated through visions and symbols that they could understand.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: And it turned out that those symbols meant a lot more than they could have ever understood before the mystery of the church was unveiled to the apostles and prophets in the New Testament era.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so like God doesn't lie.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it does.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: God doesn't lie with Jesus.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm so sorry, my buttons are still sticky from earlier.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: God doesn't lie when he promises the Messiah will come and of his government and of his peace there'll be no end.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: And this picture of this conquering messianic king is coming, and people were like, okay, yeah, Jesus this messianic figure, he is going to conquer, but the way he conquered was not the way they expected.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: And though warfare language was used then, it he didn't come to conquer that way.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: He came and conquered by being conquered, right?
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Like Christus Victor's sort of victorious reign.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: And the same could be said of like Joseph, make it simpler.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: God wasn't prophesying there would be really skinny cows that swallow up fat cows, right?
28:21
SPEAKER_00: But the picture, the image behind it, the meaning was true, even if the literal interpretation of the vision was not the case.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: So I I I can I can smell what you're stepping in there, and I think that makes more sense for me and and hopefully for the audience as well, who's wrestling through uh some of these pictures.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: You know, you've said that Armageddon isn't like World War III or World War IV, depending on how many of those that lead up to this biblical battle, this event.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh this is kind of a literal battlefield reading of the text.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: You've already kind of made the case that this is not that sort of battlefield.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: And you mentioned the geographic problem with the Mount Herman, or not sorry, Mount Herman.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: Different Mount Megiddo, yeah.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: Mount Megiddo.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: The language of like plain and hill country kind of reminds me of Genesis, and I'm curious.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: This is kind of an off-the-wall question, Michael.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: I apologize.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: But when we read Genesis, it seems as if Eden is on a mountain and the waters that are flowing down are kind of watering the earth, which would suggest some kind of elevation.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: When you go to Ezekiel, he refers to the garden as like the mountain of God.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh that kind of imagery is used there, but of the serpent, he is the serpent of the field.
29:35
SPEAKER_00: And the language there seems to be flatlands.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: It struck me as you were talking through this, the idea of uh, you know, again, flatland idea uh and and mountainous region.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: Uh is this a is this a i you know there's there's conversations at the end.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: Christ comes back, he stands on the Mount of Olives, boom, the earth splits open.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: Could it be the case that there's some kind of geological change in the earth that would cause a mountain to emerge where this location potentially is, that is all plain land.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: Is that a possibility?
30:11
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you would just have to infer that the text doesn't say that.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: God can do anything.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't think that's the case.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: I think John is working through the symbolism of mountains.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: He's been talking about Mount Zion.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: Now he's gonna talk about Mount Megiddo, and it's gonna be a battle between two mountains.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: It's a battle between God and the devil and between their two different kingdoms.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think it's Jews and Gentiles slogging it out in a battlefield.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's that.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: So, but could God create a mountain in a field in Megiddo?
30:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, the text absolutely doesn't demand it.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: God can do anything.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: I I to me it feels like a reach, is what I would say.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: Fair.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so there's not a mountain there now, but God will make one, you know, it just feels like a reach.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: It could feel like a stretch, yeah.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: When it comes to you mentioned the geological problem, the geographical problem prophetically, how this could be interpreted through a picture of symbol and persecution rather than literal war.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: What about the logical problem of like the nations all gathering together in one place?
31:16
SPEAKER_00: You want to unpack some of that for us?
31:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's it's interesting.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: It talks first of all, all the there are numerous Armageddon passages in Revelation.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: There's Revelation 14, which directly pulls from Joel chapter 3, one of the primary Armageddon passages of the Old Testament.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: Revelations, now only Revelation 16 mentions Armageddon, but there are these different sort of last battle type passages.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: Revelation 14 is where you have a flood of blood that goes like 200 miles from Armageddon to Jerusalem.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: And I I think it is.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, that's Revelation 14 that pulls from Joel chapter 3.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: Then you have Revelation 16 that directly mentions it.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: You also have in Revelation 17, you also have the beast turning on the church, Revelation after he turns on Babylon, which is interesting.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: And then Revelation 19, you have another picture of Armageddon that speaks more from the victorious side, which is the awesome side.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, okay, pull me back in, Josh.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: Now I just explained that and I forgot what your question was.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: Just the logical logical side of this.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: Oh, a logical, yeah.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: Logically.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: So if in Revelation 16, I mean it says the kings of the earth gather for battle there, okay, and some will be like, oh, it's just it's a limited military op.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: It's not like it's just the kings and their armies, it's not every single person on the earth.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: But when I I mean, first of all, that would still be way huge for a field and bagiddo for every king and their armies to gather.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean, what would Russia doesn't Russia have like a two or three million person army right now?
32:56
SPEAKER_01: And does China don't they have uh I mean in the millions, I think.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: I I I can't remember.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: I I I don't I don't like habitually look up military numbers, but if it's the whole world, it is millions and millions of people in a space the size of well, not that big.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: And so it doesn't make sense from that perspective, uh, even if you count it as a literal military operation.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: But I would also say the parallels, since Revelation 19 is a parallel of Armageddon, there it's clearly not just the kings and their armies.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: In Revelation and 19, it uses language like all people, all flesh, all captains, all armies, all all all great and small.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: It's actually that even that great and small parallels Revelation 20, where all great and small, I think it reverses it's small and great.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: One is small and great, one is great and small.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, but in Revelation chapter 20, this is a way of saying every single human.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: And so this is every unbeliever gathered in Armageddon in a place.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: I I actually measured it in my book.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: It's like a sixth the size of Oklahoma City or whatever it was.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: Like there's literally no way.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: And and so I don't think it's saying just a limited military op.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: Even if it was, there would be no way that that could happen in the literal plane of Megiddo.
34:20
SPEAKER_01: But it's actually not just a limited military op.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: It is the whole unbelieving world that turns on the church, according to Revelation 19.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: And then according to Revelation 14, if we pull in that parallel, we're talking about this is kind of funny.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: I nerd out in my book.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: Let me see if I can find it here.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: I write.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: This is the verse where it talks about the blood that reaches up to a horse's bridle.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: It runs 1600 stadio, which is about 200 miles.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, and and I give explanations for why that number is symbolic, but here's what I write.
34:59
SPEAKER_01: Revelation 1420 agrees with what I've been saying about this being a logical problem, these numbers.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: Revelation 1420 communicates a staggering death death toll.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: The parallel Armageddon Armageddon passage declares, and the wine press of the wrath of God was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the white wine press as high as a horse's bridle for 1600 stadia.
35:22
SPEAKER_01: A literal interpretation requires us to picture a 200-mile crimson highway flowing at the depth of an average grave, to nerd out for a moment, assuming the normal person's body contains five liters of the red stuff, it would require 83 trillion people to produce such a flood of blood.
35:41
SPEAKER_01: I guess I'm laughing that I wrote the red stuff.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, so point being that is an insane amount of blood.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: And outside the city would be Jerusalem there.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: And so anyway, but it's still flowing 200 miles.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: This is insane.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: The numbers just don't work logically.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: And maybe you could say, well, he's using hyperbole.
36:04
SPEAKER_01: And it feels it starts to feel a little like we're picking and choosing, like, oh, this is all literal.
36:10
SPEAKER_01: It's literal, everything is literal, it's conventional warfare, literal, literal, literal, but the numbers are symbolic.
36:15
SPEAKER_01: And that just feels a little pick and choose to me.
36:17
SPEAKER_01: I think the numbers are are symbolic of just the the carnage that will be part of Armageddon.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: And so I think the numbers are symbolic, and I think the war itself is symbolic of a great persecution.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: Well, let me kind of turn that question around on you then, because you know, you had said a moment ago that there is a worldwide state-run persecution of the church.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: I I find it hard to believe, I mean it plausible, but like difficult to believe that every single nation will like turn on Christians at the end, and maybe that's exactly what's going to happen.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, I I've heard it said that, you know, this great battle, you know, historic premillennial background here, and folks would say, look, it's not every nation, it's it's these nations, it's the nations that are mentioned, it's these that are clustered around Israel.
37:08
SPEAKER_00: It's not it's not every nation in the world.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious what your take is on some of that when it comes to the Battle of Armageddon, figurative, spiritual, literal, you know, when you're saying I think this is more on a figurative side of things, is it also the case that this deception has to be a global level of deception, or could it be more localized in specific regions?
37:29
SPEAKER_00: Could it be generalized that certain governmental powers will start persecuting the church?
37:34
SPEAKER_00: Well, what's your take on that being more literal?
37:38
SPEAKER_01: So I I mean, I think it's possible that will every single like will the 83-year-old grandmother who lives in Northeast Russia be picking up a bazooka to be blowing up Christians?
37:53
SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: Right?
37:54
SPEAKER_01: Like, is every single person gonna be picking up a weapon and going after Christians?
37:58
SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: But even if you lived in like Nazi Germany, not every single person turned on the church in the same way, or Jews for that matter.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: And both were turned on.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: There was a confessing church that was, you know, running against the grain.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: And basically anyone who wasn't following after Hitler and hailing Hitler, heiling Hitler and all of that was gonna be in some trouble.
38:22
SPEAKER_01: And people in Germany, like some of them were part of the army, and some of them were part of the government, and some of them were everyday people who kept their mouths shut and just let things happen.
38:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think what does it mean to turn on the church can be varied.
38:39
SPEAKER_01: I think that some some people turn on the church by just telling a secret, like, oh, they're hiding over here.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: And some people turn on the church by saying nothing when evil's taking place, and some people turn on the church by literally taking a weapon and killing people.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: And I think it can be any and all of those things.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: And exact exactly how wide scale it is, I would just say it's extremely wide scale.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: It is absolutely global.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: And why the reason I say state sponsored is because Revelation 16 emphasizes kings.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: The kings of the earth will gather, which interestingly enough, when you get to later in Revelation, the kings of the earth are bringing their glory and honor into New Jerusalem, hearkening back to Isaiah chapter 60.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: Some of these kings of the earth are actually getting saved.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, not these kings of the earth, not the ones that are in Armageddon.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: I I digress, but the uh kings of the earth indicates something state-sponsored, and there is a mass deception.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: All I know Revelation 19 directly mentions deception, Revelation 20 mentions deception, which that's what that one's debated, whether it's part of Armageddon, I would say that it is.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh, Revelation 16 mentions deception.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: There are lying spirits represented by frogs that are coming out of the mouths, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: I believe Revelation 14, I can't remember if it mentions deception, but I think it does.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: The passages that mention Armageddon mention deception continually, it seems to be widespread.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: And then to corroborate that with Second Thessalonians chapter 2, that we've talked before in other episodes about the man of lawlessness, which I do believe there is a final human being who rises to power.
40:18
SPEAKER_01: Second Thessalonians 2 harkens back to Daniel chapter 11, somebody who takes his seat in the temple.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: And so there's a religious dimension, there's a political dimension to this, just like you see in Revelation 13.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: But listen to this.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: Does this, and I'll ask you, Josh, does this sound like a limited thing that happens in some corner of the earth, or does it sound pretty widespread?
40:40
SPEAKER_01: The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, with all wicked deception for those who are perishing.
40:48
SPEAKER_01: Who gets saved?
40:48
SPEAKER_01: Or are sorry, who gets deceived?
40:50
SPEAKER_01: Those who are perishing, the lost.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: There's a new wave of deception coming over them, because they refuse to love the truth and so be saved.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: So unbelievers get this wave of delusion.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: He's gonna talk about in verse 11.
41:03
SPEAKER_01: Therefore, God sends them, it's a judgment, it's a progressive hardening of the heart.
41:07
SPEAKER_01: Armageddon is going to involve a progressive, wide scot, wide-scale, calcifying, hardening of the heart, where the world's gonna turn on the church.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: He says God sends them a strong delusion so that so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
41:31
SPEAKER_01: Josh, does that sound like a limited thing to you, or does it sound global and widespread?
41:36
SPEAKER_00: No, I mean it definitely sounds global and widespread.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm just I'm thinking to the the question of scale.
41:41
SPEAKER_00: You know, you know Israel, all of Israel ho hoard after other gods, and yet when you zoom in to the narrative there, you've got figures like Daniel who, you know, are being faithful to Yahweh.
41:54
SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm just curious, like, okay, could could this be generalized?
41:58
SPEAKER_00: You know, could a persecution of one nation look very different than the persecution of another nation?
42:02
SPEAKER_00: You know, I think that the persecution here in the West, we think in terms of like, they told me not to bring my Bible to school.
42:09
SPEAKER_00: And don't don't get me wrong, bring your Bible to school.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm not, I'm not saying that that's silly.
42:13
SPEAKER_00: It is a form of religious persecution.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: However, the persecution of the first century is like they fed them to lions, you know.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: Like I just I'm curious to the scale.
42:23
SPEAKER_00: There may be a scale in some spaces where, yeah, they're they're Colosseum battling with Christians, and while also thinking maybe to another scale, there is more religious freedoms that are being withheld and and removed from individuals.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious on the different kinds of ways that this all fleshes out, but to your point, it's not it's not clearly detailed.
42:45
SPEAKER_00: And thinking in terms of how is it hardening, it sounds like a judicial hardening that escalates to the end, so that it's very clear the wheat is wheat, the chaff is chaff, they're they've they've come into maturity.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: And I've used that language of like chaff get and chaffier.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: I think that's funny, but the real idea there is that the dark gets darker before the end, and the light gets brighter before the end.
43:07
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that that susses out as so I think it's as a satisfactory answer.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I don't think it is localized, but I still think that there's probably room and degrees of interpreting this in a broad scale to say, okay, in what ways?
43:22
SPEAKER_01: I definitely think not everyone's turning into Adolf Hitler, right?
43:27
SPEAKER_01: Like there will definitely be varying degrees, and some regions will be worse than others, but I just think it's gonna be a wide-scale, global, state-sponsored persecution of the church.
43:41
SPEAKER_01: I think the universal language of Revelation, mixed with the political language of Revelation, when it talks about Armageddon, leads me in that direction.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: And also, even the typological aspects that tie to conventional warfare in the old testament, that does seem to speak of something that is really widespread and bought in by the nations of the earth.
44:08
SPEAKER_01: But that said, so in Revelation 14, it's kind of a I love that chapter.
44:14
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the end of it's pretty tough.
44:17
SPEAKER_01: That's the flood of blood from Armageddon.
44:21
SPEAKER_01: But the it begins.
44:23
SPEAKER_01: So the reason I I really enjoy that chapter is Revelation 13, you got the beast of the sea and the beast of the earth, they're wreaking havoc.
44:30
SPEAKER_01: The beast of the sea rises from the, you know, first beast rises from the sea, the second next beast rises from the earth.
44:37
SPEAKER_01: And then in Revelation 14, and you see Jesus, and he's already there, and he's standing on Mount Zion in his 144,000, which I believe is not let not a literal number.
44:49
SPEAKER_01: I believe it represents God's people in the last days.
44:52
SPEAKER_01: They're surrounding him, they're standing firm on Mount Zion.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: But you have this sort of back and forth where it's going to picture like you know, Jesus on Mount Zion and his people, but then you're you're going to see there are three angels that come and seek.
45:07
SPEAKER_01: And I want to read what this what happens with this first angel.
45:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, so because the second angel announces the fall of Babylon, the third angel talks about basically eternal punishment for those who take the mark of the beast and and persist in that.
45:28
SPEAKER_01: But verses six through seven, it says, I saw another angel.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: So this was the first of the three angels.
45:34
SPEAKER_01: I just mentioned the other two.
45:36
SPEAKER_01: I saw another angel flying directly overhead with an eternal gospel to proclaim to all to those who dwell on the earth.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: By the way, in Revelation, those who dwell on the earth, I call them earth dwellers, isn't just referring to earth's population, people who happen to have a zip code.
45:53
SPEAKER_01: It's referring to unbelievers.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: And Revelation 13 will make clear that heaven dwellers are Christians.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: Why?
46:00
SPEAKER_01: Because our citizenship is there, our loyalties are there.
46:04
SPEAKER_01: And so when you read earth dwellers or those who dwell on the earth in Revelation, it's again, you it's talking about unbelievers.
46:13
SPEAKER_01: It's a so this angel is proclaiming an eternal gospel to those who dwell on the earth, so to the unbelievers, to every nation and tribe and language and people.
46:23
SPEAKER_01: And he said with a loud voice, fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: And so Revelation 14 is going to re lead right into Revelation 15, where the angels are dispatched, and the seven angels that are dispatched are going to pour out seven bowls, one of which is Armageddon in chapter 16.
46:47
SPEAKER_01: And so here's where I'm going with that.
46:51
SPEAKER_01: Just before the bowls of wrath are emptied upon the earth, God is saying, Hey, there's still a last chance.
46:59
SPEAKER_01: These seals have been removed.
47:03
SPEAKER_01: The four horsemen have galloped forth.
47:06
SPEAKER_01: There's been all kinds of craziness on the earth.
47:09
SPEAKER_01: The trumpets have blared.
47:11
SPEAKER_01: We're here just before the very end.
47:15
SPEAKER_01: And even now, God says there's a chance to be saved.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: Fear God and give him glory.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: And I want to take a moment just away from nerding out on Revelation and just say if you are watching this video, fear God and give him glory.
47:33
SPEAKER_01: He is your maker.
47:34
SPEAKER_01: And he sent his one and only Son to die on a cross for your sins.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: And three days later, he rose again.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: And remember that third angel in the sequence, it's going to talk about a lake of fire that burns forever.
47:46
SPEAKER_01: And it says the people who are in that lake will of fire will have no rest day or night.
47:53
SPEAKER_01: It sounds terrible.
47:55
SPEAKER_01: In contrast, God's people in that same chapter do have rest.
48:00
SPEAKER_01: We find rest in the Lamb.
48:02
SPEAKER_01: Place your faith in Jesus.
48:05
SPEAKER_01: And so that's the message that this angel is proclaiming.
48:09
SPEAKER_01: And it's God's way of saying, and it's God's way of saying, like, hey, even here at the very end, within a hair's breadth of final bulls of wrath being poured out, you can change the number on your jersey, you can change teams, you can join Team Jesus, you can put your faith in him, and you will be saved.
48:29
SPEAKER_01: And it's just like he says in Armageddon, be clothed, put your faith in Jesus.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: So, Josh, the reason I went into all of that is that I do believe the gospel it's going out to every tongue, tribe, and nation.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: It already is.
48:47
SPEAKER_01: Matthew 24, 14 says the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all nations, and then the end will come.
48:55
SPEAKER_01: When will it come?
48:56
SPEAKER_01: When the gospel reaches all nations.
48:59
SPEAKER_01: And so God's waiting, 2 Peter 3, for more and more people to be saved.
49:03
SPEAKER_01: And even after the trumpets blare, and even after the seals are all open or almost all open, even here, just up until the very end, God is making his appeal.
49:14
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I wanted to make my appeal.
49:16
SPEAKER_01: I believe that once that appeal at the very end, the last just gospel thrust that goes out to the end of the earth, once that is resisted, that 2 Thessalonians 2 verse comes into play.
49:31
SPEAKER_01: And God pours out a strong delusion on those who rejected the truth and took pleasure in unrighteousness.
49:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:41
SPEAKER_00: Let me okay you've walked us through because we've got a we've got a we've land some planes here.
49:49
SPEAKER_00: We've walked through the logical problems, the geographic problems.
49:53
SPEAKER_00: We haven't quite touched some of the theological problems just yet.
49:57
SPEAKER_00: Would you be willing to walk us through a few of the the theological uh problems with this text here?
50:04
SPEAKER_01: Oh, sure.
50:05
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's it's really a very specific problem with those who say, and people do say this, that hey, if you live in a sheep nation that happens to be allied with Israel, then you are gonna be safe in Armageddon.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: The the the problem with that, political Israel, they're not saved.
50:29
SPEAKER_01: They're not.
50:30
SPEAKER_01: They uh now some within it are, and more and more people are, and I believe there will be a Jewish Great Awakening before the end.
50:37
SPEAKER_01: Go back and watch our our last episode.
50:39
SPEAKER_01: I believe Romans 11 teaches that when the times of the Gentiles are complete, there will be a mass, massive influx of Jewish salvations.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: However, that's still not the same as the political entity of Israel.
50:56
SPEAKER_01: And it's a theological problem if you say, I'm going to be safe because my nation allied with the quote right nation.
51:07
SPEAKER_01: No, it's very similar to what Israel did in Jesus' day when Jesus will allude to Jeremiah chapter seven.
51:18
SPEAKER_01: For Jesus, it's a criticism of the of the religious leaders.
51:22
SPEAKER_01: In Jeremiah 7, they're quoted as saying, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, which is their way of saying, like, hey, we've got a temple, so no judgment can come.
51:32
SPEAKER_01: And Jeremiah says, Well, you're gonna suffer judgment, you just watch and see.
51:36
SPEAKER_01: That pile of stones, that that architecture that you've put your faith in is not going to save you because God's shalom does not come independently of faith and repentance.
51:48
SPEAKER_01: And so that was it really comes back to the point at the beginning is that I I tremble at the the number of preachers that are out there convincing people that they that their nation must ally with Israel for them to somehow be safe in the end times.
52:06
SPEAKER_01: And that's absolutely untrue.
52:09
SPEAKER_01: And it's a theological problem because our safety doesn't come from our nation allying with Israel any more than their safety came from them holding on to a Jewish temple.
52:23
SPEAKER_01: No, their safety, our safety, is repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
52:28
SPEAKER_01: Jesus means salvation.
52:31
SPEAKER_01: It means you're safe.
52:33
SPEAKER_01: And so put your faith in Jesus.
52:34
SPEAKER_01: That's how you're saved, that's how you're safe, that's how you're protected in and through and beyond the end of this age.
52:42
SPEAKER_01: And so it I get really nervous when people start demanding certain ge certain geopolitical decisions being made by our political leaders based on incorrect interpretations of the Bible.
52:58
SPEAKER_01: I I think that nations should be allied with based on whether or not it's good for that nation, based on a variety of factors.
53:08
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that Israel should be automatically allied with as a nation.
53:15
SPEAKER_01: I think that any nation that allies with Israel should do so on the merits of what it deserves.
53:21
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not gonna comment on what it deserves and what the United States of America or what Great Britain or what Australia should do with relation to Israel.
53:29
SPEAKER_01: Honestly, it doesn't even matter what I think.
53:31
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter what you think.
53:32
SPEAKER_01: The political leader's gonna do what they do.
53:34
SPEAKER_01: But the theological root of it is your safety in Armageddon hinges zero on that.
53:42
SPEAKER_01: So I love Israel, I honor the Jews, Romans 15.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: I I honor the Jews, Romans chapter 11.
53:52
SPEAKER_01: I take no pride, I I'm saved by grace through faith.
53:56
SPEAKER_01: So none of that, none of that anti-Semitism.
53:58
SPEAKER_01: I I reject that with my whole heart.
54:01
SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, I I do not think that allying with Israel is going to save you in the end.
54:09
SPEAKER_01: Ally with Jesus.
54:11
SPEAKER_00: It becomes idolatry.
54:13
SPEAKER_00: It becomes idolatry when when it's like it's not Christ who is our protector, it's it's Israel who becomes our spiritual covering and protection during this thing.
54:23
SPEAKER_00: Like that's not a good thing.
54:25
SPEAKER_00: And I think I'm with you, man, in saying, like, I think everyone has the right to say, hey, look, this is what I think we should, why we should get involved in the protection of Israel.
54:33
SPEAKER_00: And there are good arguments for that.
54:35
SPEAKER_00: Like there are good arguments for defending democracy in the Middle East.
54:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, there there are there are good arguments when it comes to getting involved in foreign policies of other nations.
54:45
SPEAKER_00: Like, make those the arguments, though.
54:47
SPEAKER_00: If the if the argument is flowing from I want to be safe because I have to protect Israel, that is, that is theologically idolatrous.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: And we want to make sure that we are in the same way that Michael, you and I would both say that, you know, submitting to the apostle of a network doesn't give you some kind of spiritual power in mojo.
55:05
SPEAKER_00: That's idolatry, thinking that that guy is giving you power rather than the resurrection, death, burial, you know, giving of the spirit of Christ to his people.
55:13
SPEAKER_00: We'd say that's idolatrous.
55:14
SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's a it's a consistent hermeneutic, not necessarily one that is pointing for a conclusion.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: Because to your point earlier, you and I both don't care.
55:24
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, defend Israel if it's the right thing to do in the given situation that we're in, but that that's that's not an argument here or there.
55:32
SPEAKER_00: It it's more to say we we shouldn't we shouldn't be making this argument on a theological grounds because those are not good theological grounds.
55:40
SPEAKER_00: I I like that.
55:40
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a a great way to frame it.
55:44
SPEAKER_00: Michael, this is a really good point.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: We've done 54 minutes on Armageddon.
55:47
SPEAKER_00: There might be more that we have to pick up at a later time.
55:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna have closing thoughts.
55:51
SPEAKER_00: That I'm about to punch.
55:54
SPEAKER_01: Do it, my guy.
55:55
SPEAKER_01: So I really I define Armageddon as it's it's not just the final persecution, but also the final judgment of the forces of evil.
56:04
SPEAKER_01: That is the earth, earthly judgment.
56:06
SPEAKER_01: There's still a great white throne that follows, but the final judgment as which is related to the final victory.
56:13
SPEAKER_01: And I want to read the Revelation 19 version of what happens.
56:17
SPEAKER_01: I saw heaven open, and behold, a white horse, the one sitting on it, is called faithful and true.
56:21
SPEAKER_01: In righteousness, he judges and makes war.
56:26
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so in and so here at the end, and and again, I don't I I think I I said before, makes war.
56:33
SPEAKER_01: We have to interpret each one in its in its context.
56:38
SPEAKER_01: Usually it means persecution here.
56:40
SPEAKER_01: It's not like Jesus is persecuting these people, but is he waging conventional warfare?
56:46
SPEAKER_01: Well, the sword comes out of his mouth, so it's actually it's actually picturing judgment here.
56:52
SPEAKER_01: His eyes are a flame of fire, same what that we saw in Revelation 1.
56:56
SPEAKER_01: And his head on his head are many diadems, and his name is written so that no one knows.
57:02
SPEAKER_01: Oh, and this is also interesting, too.
57:06
SPEAKER_01: Okay, never mind, I'm gonna keep reading.
57:08
SPEAKER_01: No one knows but himself.
57:10
SPEAKER_01: He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood.
57:12
SPEAKER_01: That's Isaiah 63, illusion.
57:14
SPEAKER_01: And the name by which he is called is the word of God, John 1, and the armies of heaven are arrayed in fine linen.
57:21
SPEAKER_01: So notice the armies of heaven, but what are they doing?
57:23
SPEAKER_01: Are they wearing battle fatigues?
57:24
SPEAKER_01: Are they carrying bazookas?
57:26
SPEAKER_01: Are they but dropping nukes?
57:27
SPEAKER_01: No, they're actually arrayed in fine linen, which we learned later, is or actually learned earlier is the righteous deeds of the saints.
57:34
SPEAKER_01: White and pure were following him on white horses.
57:37
SPEAKER_01: White is a victory horse.
57:39
SPEAKER_01: From his mouth comes a sharp sword.
57:42
SPEAKER_01: So from the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet, from their mouths came frogs representing lying spirits.
57:52
SPEAKER_01: From Jesus' mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations.
57:57
SPEAKER_01: So it's his judgment and his victory of the nations.
58:00
SPEAKER_01: That's why I say this is this is a universal thing, this is a global thing that's taking place.
58:05
SPEAKER_01: And he will rule them with a rod of iron.
58:08
SPEAKER_01: That's Psalm 2, and it's speaking of his judgment here.
58:11
SPEAKER_01: He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty, and on his robe and on his thigh has a name written, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
58:21
SPEAKER_01: And so I like this definition of Armageddon from, let me see if I can find it here in my notes.
58:28
SPEAKER_01: Leon Morris, in his commentary on Revelation, he says, Armageddon is the symbol for the final overthrow of all the forces of evil by an almighty God.
58:41
SPEAKER_01: So it's ultimately good, even if it's dark at first.
58:46
SPEAKER_01: One more quote.
58:47
SPEAKER_01: This is from Desmond Ford.
58:49
SPEAKER_01: He says, Armageddon is to the church what Calvary was to Christ, the last conflict, the hiding of God's face, threatened extinction, but ultimate deliverance.
58:59
SPEAKER_01: And so the cross was good.
59:03
SPEAKER_01: It was the redemption of the world.
59:04
SPEAKER_01: And so Armageddon is ultimately going to be something that God works goodness and beauty and victory out of.
59:13
SPEAKER_01: In fact, it's like what Star says as the day of the dragon, that he's going to come and stomp us out, actually becomes the day of the Lord, and he judges them.
59:25
SPEAKER_01: And and Josh, we don't know how far along he gets in that persecution.
59:29
SPEAKER_01: You know, like does he close to annihilate the church?
59:32
SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
59:33
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think there's still going to be a lot of Christians alive, and that's the way Paul talks in 1 Thessalonians 4 at Christ's return.
59:39
SPEAKER_01: So we don't know how far along the persecution side gets, but we do know it'll be dark, and we know that Jesus is going to judge, and Jesus is going to get the ultimate victory.
59:51
SPEAKER_01: Armageddon is actually, instead of putting dread in us that maybe I'm going to have to fight in a Jew-Gentile war, or maybe my nation's not going to choose the right foreign policy.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh-oh.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_01: No.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_01: Armageddon is supposed to, even though there's some dark aspects to it, it's ultimately the victory of God.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_01: It's Jesus riding on a white horse and you riding with him, not in battle fatigues, but in white linen because you're clothed in righteousness.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_01: So it's ultimately victory.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_01: I think that's what I would finish with.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_01: I'd love to break down the dispensationalist view of three different last battles, or the historic premillennialist view of two last battles, and why I think one last battle makes more sense of each verse.
1:00:37
SPEAKER_01: But we don't have time for that.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_01: And I write about it myself.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_00: Maybe we do a part two, man.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_00: Part two here.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and if you if you want, you can always go check out the book.
1:00:45
SPEAKER_00: There's a link in the description.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: I'd highly recommend you pick it up.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_00: The World Made Right, linked up there.
1:00:50
SPEAKER_00: You can get it for pre-order.
1:00:51
SPEAKER_00: I think by the time we actually release this video, it'll be next week, which means you might not have to pre-order at all.
1:00:56
SPEAKER_00: You can just pick up the full thing.
1:00:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:00:57
SPEAKER_00: Encourage you to do this fantastic book.
1:00:59
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, if we're taping this on the 13th, it will be out the 19th, is when we're releasing this video.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_00: So day before.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_00: The day after you watch this video, you should be able to purchase this book.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_00: So guys, thank you so much for tuning in.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_00: Make sure to pick up your copy in the link below.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_00: Michael, thank you so much for walking us through the whole program.
1:01:21
SPEAKER_00: You guys make sure to subscribe, like the videos.
1:01:23
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna keep coming out with content just like this.
1:01:25
SPEAKER_00: And who knows, maybe I can convince Michael to come out with another part two on Armageddon.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_00: We shall see.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for tuning in, guys.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_00: We'll see you next time.