Latest / Never Post / Mailbag #11: Someone To Tell Us How To Be

Transcript

Mailbag #11: Someone To Tell Us How To Be · Never Post

• 0:08
  Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello, and welcome to NeverPost's
• 0:12
  jingle bell jingle bell jingle bell mailbag twenty twenty five
• 0:15
  in which we respond to listener emails, comments, voicemails,
• 0:18
  and voice messages about our segments. A surprising number of
• 0:22
  missives this round delivered by the mailman. Though they mostly
• 0:27
  appear to be poorly written letters with awful handwriting
• 0:31
  requesting things like pop guns, Lego sets, and puppies addressed
• 0:36
  to some guy who definitely does not work here. Beginning to
• 0:40
  think there may have been a mix up at the post office. Anyways,
• 0:43
  we're only a small Internet show.
• 0:46
  We're gonna see what we can do about all of these puppy
• 0:48
  requests. I'm your host, Mike Rugnetta. Joining me here today
• 0:51
  in order of how likely I think it is that they may have gotten
• 0:54
  their tongue frozen to a flagpole as a child decreasing.
• 0:59
  Hans Buetow: Oh. Okay. So most likely first.
• 1:01
  Mike Rugnetta: Oh. Based entirely upon geography, never
• 1:05
  post senior producer Hans Buteau. Yeah.
• 1:09
  Hans Buetow: My geography is cold. It was nine degrees
• 1:14
  yesterday, max. It's been snowing a lot recently. I live
• 1:17
  in the Twin Cities, and I grew up here. So, yeah, absolutely.
• 1:21
  I have frozen here's I'm not
• 1:23
  Mike Rugnetta: frozen my tongue too.
• 1:24
  Hans Buetow: Is the flagpole? But you know how well,
• 1:28
  especially when you're a kid, I was gonna say, you know how
• 1:30
  accidentally you lick your zipper on your jacket once in a
• 1:33
  while. I mean, you don't. But when you're a kid, you do. When
• 1:35
  you're
• 1:35
  Mike Rugnetta: a kid, you absolutely do your thing.
• 1:37
  Hans Buetow: You you huddle yeah. Exactly. Yes.
• 1:39
  Georgia Hampton: Huddle your Sure.
• 1:40
  Hans Buetow: Sure. Middle is exactly what you're
• 1:42
  Mike Rugnetta: talking about.
• 1:42
  Hans Buetow: Yes. And then your tongue, like, glances against in
• 1:45
  its 16 below, and all of
• 1:46
  Mike Rugnetta: a sudden no longer a glance.
• 1:48
  Hans Buetow: Yeah. Yeah. All of a sudden, you're stuck to your
• 1:50
  zipper. That has happened Next to
• 1:52
  Mike Rugnetta: in the roster, based again entirely upon
• 1:55
  geography, friend of the show, Meagle Janardan.
• 1:57
  Meghal Janardan: Yeah. I don't think my tongue has ever frozen
• 2:01
  against anything, but I have been slashed by ice. Woah.
• 2:06
  Slashed by ice. Sledding accident.
• 2:09
  Oh. Classic.
• 2:10
  Mike Rugnetta: Let the audience know that Meagle made a motion
• 2:12
  indicating that she got the coolest, most badass injury in
• 2:15
  the world.
• 2:16
  An ice cut across the face.
• 2:20
  Never post producer Georgia Hampton.
• 2:22
  Georgia Hampton: Okay. So I think I literally have done
• 2:24
  this. Like, I have a vivid memory of that specific feeling
• 2:30
  of my tongue being sucked to something that's, like, very
• 2:33
  strong, and having to figure out how to free myself and the panic
• 2:37
  of, like,
• 2:38
  Georgia Hampton: uh-oh, the consequences of my actions.
• 2:42
  Mike Rugnetta: And finally, never post executive producer
• 2:44
  Jason Oberholtzer.
• 2:46
  Jason Oberholtzer: I would never do such a thing.
• 2:48
  Georgia Hampton: And I know that.
• 2:49
  Georgia Hampton: Two watts.
• 2:50
  Jason Oberholtzer: Two My entire life, I've been in a climate
• 2:52
  where that was available to me, and yet I have decided to make a
• 2:55
  better choice every time it was on offer. Wow. Okay.
• 3:01
  Mike Rugnetta: And that's why Jason's the EP of the show,
• 3:03
  folks.
• 3:04
  Hans Buetow: Mike, have you had such a thing happen?
• 3:06
  Mike Rugnetta: Oh, god. Yes. Absolutely. Oh, wow. Oh.
• 3:08
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I mean,
• 3:10
  Mike Rugnetta: I would just wander around my grandmother's
• 3:12
  house in Boston during this during the Boston winters and
• 3:15
  just, you know, lick every piece of metal I could possibly find.
• 3:18
  Jason Oberholtzer: That's what
• 3:18
  Georgia Hampton: I'm talking about. Mike's
• 3:20
  Hans Buetow: a very lingual four word. It's how Mike engages with
• 3:24
  a lot of the world.
• 3:25
  Mike Rugnetta: Heard about this one guy in Connecticut who
• 3:27
  refused to, and I was like, well, I gotta maintain balance
• 3:30
  in the universe.
• 3:31
  Jason Oberholtzer: So Yeah. Have you ever considered making a
• 3:33
  better choice?
• 3:35
  Mike Rugnetta: You know? No.
• 3:37
  Georgia Hampton: Good.
• 3:40
  Mike Rugnetta: Anyways, let's make a podcast.
• 3:41
  Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Speaking of making bad choices,
• 3:43
  we've got a lot of mail. I'd like to start us out like we
• 3:48
  normally do with some responses to the previous mailbag and the
• 3:52
  subjects that came up there. And as a reminder, everybody, there
• 3:55
  are many ways to get in touch with us if you wanna be a part
• 3:58
  of these mailbags and look to the show notes for all of them.
• 4:01
  So I have one email in particular responding to some of
• 4:04
  the chatting you were doing last mailbag that I thought was
• 4:07
  particularly relevant in the holiday season.
• 4:09
  We're gonna do some spiritual stuff, gang.
• 4:12
  Mike Rugnetta: You know, we have we have joked in the past that
• 4:14
  this is a religious podcast. And then have joked that the more
• 4:18
  that we make that joke internally, the closer it gets
• 4:21
  to being weirdly kind of true. Mhmm.
• 4:24
  Jason Oberholtzer: Well, I got an email for you, bud. We're
• 4:27
  getting close. This comes from Alex Friedman. I've been
• 4:31
  thinking about emailing the show for some time because I love it.
• 4:33
  I'm a member, and because I'm a rabbi.
• 4:36
  Oh. The last reason makes sense only because Never Post was
• 4:40
  deeply influential to me and to the high holiday sermon I just
• 4:44
  gave a week or so ago. Oh. I spoke about Addictive
• 4:48
  Technologies, Neil Postman, and focusing on local things you can
• 4:52
  actually influence over things that are just designed to get
• 4:55
  you angry and impotently engaged or enraged. Oh.
• 5:00
  I thought that might be too boring to be worth an email, but
• 5:02
  then Mike mentioned in the latest mailbag episode that he
• 5:05
  loves Rhode Island, and I'm in Providence.
• 5:08
  Mike Rugnetta: I this is only proving me more right that
• 5:11
  Providence that, yeah, Rhode Island rules. Yeah.
• 5:14
  Jason Oberholtzer: I know y'all are inclined to think
• 5:15
  politically about solutions to crisis of the social Internet,
• 5:18
  but I'm a rabbi, at least in part because I believe that
• 5:20
  religious institutions have a crucial role to play. They are,
• 5:24
  by definition and necessity, local. They are one of the last
• 5:27
  places, though this is becoming less true in some places and
• 5:30
  ways, where people of different politics and economic
• 5:34
  backgrounds come together regularly in common purpose, and
• 5:37
  they are a bastion of communal meaning making in a world that
• 5:40
  wants to teach us we are meant only to consume alone and be
• 5:44
  angry. Mhmm. He concludes, I'm happy to send the sermon along
• 5:47
  if you want to read it.
• 5:48
  I hope this note finds you well. It does and I do, so please send
• 5:52
  it along.
• 5:53
  Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. I would love to read that. Please send
• 5:55
  it along.
• 5:55
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah, please. That sounds awesome.
• 5:56
  Hans Buetow: Incredible. So what do we
• 5:58
  Jason Oberholtzer: think about the role of a religious
• 6:00
  institution as one of the last places where people of different
• 6:03
  political and economic backgrounds come together in
• 6:06
  common purpose? Wasn't that supposed to be the Internet?
• 6:11
  Mike Rugnetta: Interesting. Mean, I wonder the degree to
• 6:14
  which this is true on the larger scale. Like, I don't actually
• 6:17
  know, but it is extremely heartening to read that it is at
• 6:21
  least true in some places.
• 6:23
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Yeah. I do think there's very few in in
• 6:28
  world places. Sorry.
• 6:31
  Georgia Hampton: Oh, no. It's not it's,
• 6:34
  Mike Rugnetta: you know, in universe locations.
• 6:35
  Georgia Hampton: In universe. Yeah.
• 6:36
  Georgia Hampton: Canonical. Is this church canon? They say,
• 6:39
  Chad. This reminded me there's an another conversation I've
• 6:43
  been following online right now about movie theaters, kind of in
• 6:46
  a a sort of similar way of this space in our real lived world
• 6:54
  where we are gathering together for a shared goal, in the case
• 7:00
  of movie theaters. And I imagine in the case of religious
• 7:02
  institutions, the idea being that you are not allowed to be
• 7:06
  on your phone, that there are very few places left where that
• 7:10
  is explicitly understood.
• 7:13
  And in the things I've seen, movie theaters obviously fall
• 7:16
  under that category, though many people do not follow that. Mhmm.
• 7:20
  And I imagine the same is true for religious institutions.
• 7:23
  Mike Rugnetta: I think it's yeah. There's, like, relatively
• 7:25
  few places that you go where there is some percentage of the
• 7:29
  group of people that is there has a strong idea about how
• 7:32
  everybody is supposed to behave while they're there and enforces
• 7:35
  that.
• 7:36
  Georgia Hampton: Yes.
• 7:36
  Mike Rugnetta: It's one of the reasons I love metal and punk
• 7:39
  rock shows. Because when someone gets out of line, there's a big
• 7:42
  group of people there who will very gently, but very firmly say
• 7:45
  Meghal Janardan: Mhmm.
• 7:45
  Mike Rugnetta: We don't behave that way here. It's not what
• 7:47
  this is for.
• 7:48
  Meghal Janardan: Yes. Do you think a classroom will fall into
• 7:50
  that?
• 7:51
  Mike Rugnetta: That's a good question. I and I wonder if the
• 7:54
  answer is different pre and post device ban, which is really sort
• 7:59
  of sweeping the nation at this very moment.
• 8:02
  Jason Oberholtzer: Mhmm. It's almost like we have a natural
• 8:06
  inclination to desire some structure and authority around
• 8:10
  us at times.
• 8:11
  Georgia Hampton: I mean It
• 8:13
  Jason Oberholtzer: can be nice. It can
• 8:14
  Georgia Hampton: be nice.
• 8:16
  Georgia Hampton: That's not very girl boss slay.
• 8:21
  Georgia Hampton: We gotta take our medicine sometimes. Yeah.
• 8:24
  Meghal Janardan: But interesting about that comment is that it
• 8:27
  implies that having a device around you is anti structure in
• 8:33
  some way, where I would argue that having a phone on you is
• 8:37
  following a different set of rules. Like Yes. The people who
• 8:42
  want you to hold your phone all the time and want to be online,
• 8:46
  and that's a different environment with its own rules.
• 8:49
  It just clashes with a movie theater, a church Yes. A
• 8:54
  synagogue, what have you.
• 8:55
  Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Yeah. It is in some ways in, like,
• 8:57
  conflict that you're walking around with a social compact in
• 9:00
  your pocket that's very different from the spaces you
• 9:02
  move between
• 9:03
  Mike Rugnetta: Yes. That have
• 9:04
  Jason Oberholtzer: different social compacts.
• 9:05
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Like it's not just that it's different,
• 9:07
  it's that it's like directly in opposition to those spaces.
• 9:13
  Jason Oberholtzer: Well, because they're both kind of asking the
• 9:14
  same thing, which is that they want you to be here. Yeah. They
• 9:17
  just happen to be co located and at odds.
• 9:21
  Meghal Janardan: Mhmm. We got some responses to the segment I
• 9:25
  worked on on New Luddism. One of them from a friend of the show,
• 9:29
  Talia. Talia wrote in, what a great episode. Love your work,
• 9:33
  Meagle.
• 9:33
  Thank you. It just so happened that Jathan Sadowski was holding
• 9:37
  a Luddite tribunal at the local public library last night. So,
• 9:40
  of course, I had to mosey down and have a gander. Although the
• 9:43
  analysis and antics were fun, the library had risk assess
• 9:47
  smashing things and found it, well, risky. Instead, they
• 9:50
  commissioned, quote, Enoch shredder, unquote, to shred
• 9:53
  paper icons of the technology we deem smash able.
• 9:57
  Jason Oberholtzer: Amazing. That is suspicious.
• 9:59
  Georgia Hampton: I'll put it on.
• 10:03
  Meghal Janardan: Fun little tautological knots aside, I
• 10:05
  guess the event didn't delve into the questions I feel most
• 10:08
  strongly about, and these were the ones I think this episode
• 10:11
  tackled. Like, generally, one of the most important questions to
• 10:14
  me is, can you even smash a virtual machine? There
• 10:17
  definitely feels like there is an important moment going on in
• 10:20
  which capital is trying to make its instruments less contingent
• 10:23
  on labor. Maybe more clearly stated, are they making the
• 10:27
  machines networked and virtual with protective intention? Can
• 10:30
  tools of this nature ever be democratized?
• 10:34
  I would question, is it really virtual? I I I think that that
• 10:40
  maybe is something that a lot of companies are having us think is
• 10:44
  that, you know, like, the cloud is in the cloud when a lot of
• 10:47
  technology is not there there's a physical aspect to all the
• 10:51
  technology that we engage with. We just kind of are being more
• 10:55
  and more removed from it. Yes. I also think that, you know, if
• 11:00
  we're not gonna go mosey our way down to a data center, maybe
• 11:04
  another way to look at smashing virtual technology is through
• 11:08
  boycotting.
• 11:09
  Hans Buetow: It reminds me, Meaghel, of of what they were
• 11:11
  talking about, of what especially Mohammed was talking
• 11:13
  about in the interview about all the different types of sabotage
• 11:17
  that exist.
• 11:18
  Meghal Janardan: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Mohammed and Emily were talking
• 11:23
  about that it's not always about smashing a physical piece of
• 11:27
  technology. You know, there's other ways to resist and kind of
• 11:31
  break down the technology even through using it.
• 11:33
  Mike Rugnetta: You have to smash the Epson printer in your heart
• 11:35
  first.
• 11:37
  Georgia Hampton: Oh my god.
• 11:40
  Meghal Janardan: Next up, we got an email from Julia Fisher in
• 11:43
  response to the episode I worked on about my attention span. This
• 11:48
  episode made me think about my own relationship with my phone
• 11:51
  usage and particularly short form video. In about twenty
• 11:55
  twenty two, I was halfway across the road when I realized that I
• 11:58
  had been using TikTok without enjoying it for months. I took
• 12:01
  that moment to delete the app and have never gone back. I
• 12:04
  could feel how the app had its hooks in my brain, and I knew
• 12:07
  that I had to remove myself from the cycle there and then.
• 12:10
  I am still annoyed that a medium, which I think has so
• 12:13
  much potential for really interesting and unique
• 12:15
  expressions, been used as a tool to squeeze the hours out of my
• 12:18
  day like a juicer. I'm ashamed to say that in the past year, I
• 12:22
  started going at Instagram reels instead.
• 12:24
  Georgia Hampton: Oh my god. I saw. The freaks.
• 12:28
  Mike Rugnetta: Home of the freaks.
• 12:30
  Meghal Janardan: I feel similar. I could give various arguments
• 12:33
  as to why I've gone back, but ultimately, it's the same brain
• 12:35
  hooks from a different app. One thing I've noticed with
• 12:38
  Instagram though is that one of my core themes my algorithm
• 12:41
  keeps returning me to is productivity. I believe it
• 12:44
  started from a few videos about how to do good academia, which
• 12:47
  makes sense since I've recently returned to university for a
• 12:50
  master's. And, of course, Meta could consult their
• 12:53
  constellation of data about me to find out the second I
• 12:56
  submitted my application.
• 12:58
  From those academia videos, I have then been shown a number of
• 13:02
  videos similar to the episode, which are about how to rebuild
• 13:05
  your attention. Mhmm. I am fascinated by the process of an
• 13:08
  app showing me videos, which acknowledge that the experience
• 13:12
  is not pleasant and then showing techniques of how to stop using
• 13:15
  it. It's hardly new for systems to present their own critiques,
• 13:19
  but seeing people talk in practical terms about how to
• 13:22
  stop does feel different. It all makes me wonder about how the
• 13:25
  future of digital systems will be built on co opted critique.
• 13:30
  Could Instagram just be setting up a smokescreen by showing me
• 13:33
  these videos, showing me the way out to trick me into thinking I
• 13:36
  can leave whenever I want? Oh. Woah. You should definitely
• 13:43
  subscribe to the Neverpost RSS feed and continue to listen to
• 13:47
  this podcast.
• 13:47
  Georgia Hampton: I'm trying to
• 13:48
  Meghal Janardan: can learn how to stop
• 13:50
  Georgia Hampton: listening to podcasts. But just listen to
• 13:53
  this podcast.
• 13:53
  Jason Oberholtzer: Could Instagram be showing you the way
• 13:56
  out to trick you into thinking you can leave whenever you want?
• 13:59
  We know the answer, and we'll tell you soon later on. Never
• 14:02
  post.
• 14:03
  Mike Rugnetta: After these messages. After
• 14:04
  Georgia Hampton: these messages. If you're a member,
• 14:08
  Georgia Hampton: you'll get access to that conversation
• 14:10
  early.
• 14:12
  Mike Rugnetta: Should we should we just start printing out
• 14:13
  transcripts and mailing them to people? Is that the better
• 14:16
  option? Finish an episode. Do the transcripts.
• 14:20
  Meghal Janardan: Not to be confused with a newspaper. Oh.
• 14:23
  Georgia Hampton: Uh-oh. Mike accidentally invented
• 14:25
  newspapers. Newspapers.
• 14:26
  Mike Rugnetta: Interesting. Interesting. You know, this
• 14:29
  podcast industry thing is doesn't really seem to be
• 14:32
  working out for the world. Let's just go and check. How is the
• 14:36
  news publishing industry doing?
• 14:40
  Georgia Hampton: Oh, Mike. I already checked.
• 14:41
  Georgia Hampton: It's awesome. It's so good.
• 14:46
  Georgia Hampton: Oh my god. I do have to I have to yell about the
• 14:49
  TikTok to Instagram reel pipeline.
• 14:53
  Mike Rugnetta: Where where what's the state
• 14:55
  Jason Oberholtzer: of it now? Because it used to be, like,
• 14:56
  TikTok had everything first and it was cool, then Instagram was
• 14:59
  boomer y and had it late. But now, like okay. Still that?
• 15:03
  Georgia Hampton: Yes. Oh,
• 15:04
  Meghal Janardan: still that.
• 15:04
  Georgia Hampton: Oh, I'm just gonna
• 15:05
  Jason Oberholtzer: know TikTok seems like it's all commercials,
• 15:07
  and Instagram seems like it's all sickos.
• 15:09
  Mike Rugnetta: Instagram reels, at least in my experience in
• 15:11
  comparison to using TikTok, is full of fucking weirdos. Oh,
• 15:16
  okay. Strange. Like, the amount of just truly bizarre stuff that
• 15:21
  I see, it's is just mountains more of it on Instagram than I
• 15:27
  ever saw on TikTok.
• 15:28
  Georgia Hampton: I do wonder how long it will take for the the
• 15:31
  ads, the endless advertising to get to Reels because I do still
• 15:38
  feel like TikTok I I generally avoid Reels because I'm like,
• 15:42
  listen, if I'm going to be drinking straight from the hose
• 15:45
  of this kind of content, I'm gonna do it once.
• 15:48
  Mike Rugnetta: Like it to be like it to be water and not
• 15:50
  chlorine or
• 15:51
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Exactly.
• 15:52
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah. And, like, I have a lot of a a few
• 15:55
  friends in my life who genuinely have been like, yeah. I'm so
• 15:58
  glad that I never got on TikTok. And I'm like, diva, Let's check
• 16:02
  our Instagram DMs. How many times are you looking at
• 16:06
  Mike Rugnetta: TikTok is on you. Yeah. This email does it just
• 16:10
  makes me think about I mean, and and Julia even acknowledges
• 16:12
  this, the old idea that it's like, any capitalism is able to
• 16:16
  subsume any criticism of it and is able to host it and profit
• 16:21
  from it. Yeah. So it's like, you know, Penguin House makes tons
• 16:23
  of money from printing Karl Marx's books.
• 16:25
  Yeah. It's just how it works. And it's like, you know, the job
• 16:29
  of the technology is to figure out what you want and give it to
• 16:32
  you. And what a lot of people want right now is to figure out
• 16:35
  how to spend less time online. So yeah, it is deeply ironic,
• 16:39
  but also very very true and makes all kinds of sense that
• 16:42
  Instagram will be like, well, here's endless content about
• 16:46
  spending less time online.
• 16:48
  Meghal Janardan: Yeah. There is also this new what's in my bag
• 16:53
  video that I've seen where it's people packing, like, you know,
• 16:56
  putting stuff in their purse for activities that are offline, and
• 17:00
  they're making content about putting a book in their purse.
• 17:03
  Mike Rugnetta: Folks, we're gonna win. We're gonna we're
• 17:05
  everything's gonna be okay. It's just gonna take a little while.
• 17:08
  Jason Oberholtzer: Did they start that day by yawning and
• 17:11
  tossing off their
• 17:12
  Georgia Hampton: sheets 10 feet away from their phone? Yes. God.
• 17:17
  Well, I
• 17:17
  Hans Buetow: think one thing that's interesting about this is
• 17:19
  where Julia figured it out. I love the detail that no one has
• 17:23
  commented on. I was halfway across a road. Realized I
• 17:28
  Georgia Hampton: had been using TikTok
• 17:28
  Hans Buetow: TikTok without enjoying it for months. I took
• 17:30
  that moment to delete the app and have never gone back.
• 17:32
  Georgia Hampton: I hope it.
• 17:33
  Mike Rugnetta: Stepping on to the far curb and thinking
• 17:35
  immediately, oh, damn, dog.
• 17:37
  Hans Buetow: We all remember that moment. If you if you
• 17:42
  remember the moment that you had such a realization, tell us what
• 17:45
  it is. Tell us where you were standing and which road you were
• 17:47
  crossing, when you decide when it hit you.
• 17:51
  Mike Rugnetta: Don't tell us
• 17:52
  Hans Buetow: Oh god.
• 17:52
  Mike Rugnetta: Out of the road first.
• 17:53
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Yeah. Please. Traffic.
• 17:56
  Hans Buetow: But send that to us. Thank you, Julia, for this.
• 18:00
  Georgia Hampton: Ben Smith sent in something about my segment
• 18:03
  about recipes as vibe posting.
• 18:08
  Ben Smith: Hi, Neverpost. This is less of a question or comment
• 18:12
  and more of just an excited, what a wonderful confluence of
• 18:17
  people thinking about this topic slash excitedly just sort of
• 18:20
  waving my arms in the air about this the entire time I was
• 18:23
  listening. But Ruby Tando from Bake Off, but also who is just a
• 18:28
  fantastic food writer in her own right, literally had a book
• 18:32
  coming out this week called All Consuming. The cover is very
• 18:36
  good, but the first section of it, because I have devoured it
• 18:39
  like so much of her writing, is all about the process of writing
• 18:43
  recipes now. And why are all of the descriptions of them like
• 18:47
  cheesy green beans and things like that.
• 18:51
  And just sort of like the nature of very Marshall McLuhan y, the
• 18:55
  medium is the message, and what does it mean that the medium has
• 18:58
  now changed? And I just wanted to excitedly share so that it is
• 19:03
  also on your radar. Thank you for a fantastic show.
• 19:06
  Georgia Hampton: Ben, I just looked this up, and I'm ordering
• 19:08
  it right now.
• 19:09
  Hans Buetow: I love this. Love this.
• 19:11
  Georgia Hampton: The it also it would behoove me to mention
• 19:14
  specifically Caleb Herron's interpretation of this, which is
• 19:17
  the, like, just a a green crunch. Like, a a healthy green
• 19:21
  crunch. Like, it's Is there a
• 19:24
  Mike Rugnetta: name for that? For that, like God.
• 19:26
  Georgia Hampton: Maybe I need to do another segment that's
• 19:28
  specifically food about this.
• 19:29
  Mike Rugnetta: In? It's enraging.
• 19:31
  Georgia Hampton: It's so it's so wild. Like, I just think we need
• 19:34
  a little green, a little crunch, a little
• 19:36
  Jason Oberholtzer: Like, it's every time you
• 19:38
  Georgia Hampton: do this.
• 19:39
  Georgia Hampton: But it is, like, there's something so it's
• 19:42
  like, picking up, like, a mosquito bite where, like, even
• 19:45
  saying it, I'm like, there's something evil that I'm, like,
• 19:48
  taking pleasure But, yes, thank you so much, Ben. This is
• 19:53
  awesome. I am so going to read this. This looks amazing. Also,
• 19:57
  cover is awesome.
• 19:59
  Mike Rugnetta: Eric Moore wrote in about my Brain Rot segment.
• 20:03
  Eric writes, I was listening to the Mailbag episode, and I was
• 20:05
  struck by what my mother used to call the cosmic two by four when
• 20:09
  I heard your discussion about Jay McGee's letter on
• 20:11
  WikiLeaping. I'm a professional independent trivia host, and
• 20:15
  what they were talking about is very nearly my initial
• 20:17
  brainstorming process when it comes time for me to write a new
• 20:21
  show every week, which got me thinking, am I just a paid brain
• 20:24
  rot shepherd? Uh-oh. I think trivia and brain rot have a sort
• 20:30
  of rhombus slash quadrilateral relationship.
• 20:34
  In that trivia, begrudgingly to my field, is a type of
• 20:37
  fulfilling brain rot in the modern sense, but especially
• 20:41
  when compared to AI slop brain rot, which at most generous is
• 20:44
  probably a highly irregular trapezoid in this metaphor.
• 20:49
  While I think brain rot is a well understood and accurate
• 20:51
  description of the umbrella term for activities that are
• 20:53
  capitalistically useless, but passively to semi passively
• 20:56
  enjoyable, I think where some of that distinction of fulfillment
• 21:00
  and where it loops into being a healthy thing pejoratively
• 21:02
  called brain rot comes in is in a, as Jay remarked, was this
• 21:06
  brain rot designed by human minds? B, are you engaging with
• 21:11
  it because you want to and not that it was served to you
• 21:14
  algorithmically slash systematically? And c, is this
• 21:17
  something that can be shared and communally experienced? Trivia
• 21:21
  is at least as old as the classics etymologically, but
• 21:23
  probably even older because even standing on the stage, there is
• 21:26
  nothing quite so enjoyably human as being surrounded by other
• 21:29
  humans fighting about answers to questions no one ever made you
• 21:32
  learn the answers to, and that you don't need to remember and
• 21:35
  utilize afterwards.
• 21:36
  Viva la brain rot that actually helps you enjoy living and being
• 21:40
  wonderfully useless if only for a moment. PS, AI is extremely
• 21:45
  bad at writing competent trivia questions, so my brain rot job
• 21:48
  is safe for the time being. I mean, I think like I don't know.
• 21:55
  I'm so maybe increasingly resistant to calling anything
• 22:00
  that doesn't leave you with a kind of device related hangover
• 22:05
  afterwards, any form of brain rot. That like, for me, rot now
• 22:11
  has, like, a very particular feeling associated to it.
• 22:16
  And it is when I put my phone down and I, like, re check into
• 22:21
  the world, and I'm like, oh, woah.
• 22:25
  Georgia Hampton: Hold on.
• 22:26
  Hans Buetow: Like, you just woke up from a really long nap and
• 22:28
  you'll
• 22:28
  Georgia Hampton: go Oh, yeah. You feel sick and angry. Yeah.
• 22:31
  Yeah.
• 22:31
  Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Stupid. Like a you're, like, kinda
• 22:33
  sweaty and angry. You went
• 22:34
  Georgia Hampton: to bed.
• 22:35
  Hans Buetow: It was bright, and now it's dark, and you missed
• 22:37
  dinner, and what
• 22:38
  Mike Rugnetta: the hell? Stop. I had stuff I needed to do. Yeah.
• 22:44
  And so I'm like, if you're I'm open to the idea that, like, you
• 22:48
  can do things in space with people, and then afterwards be
• 22:51
  like, oh.
• 22:54
  And like, have a kind of social hangover. But like,
• 22:58
  fundamentally, is that brain rot or is that just, you know,
• 23:02
  social anxiety? Like, I think if you're with people, there's
• 23:06
  gotta be something just fundamentally additive and pro
• 23:10
  social about it, if certain characteristics of the scenario
• 23:13
  are given. That is just so different from sitting on your
• 23:16
  phone and like, doing nothing or doing something that sort of is
• 23:22
  justified through the idea of doing nothing.
• 23:25
  Georgia Hampton: I'm really enchanted by this description of
• 23:29
  trivia as information that you never learned intentionally.
• 23:33
  Because there's something I think, comparatively true about
• 23:38
  that with memes, and I can say, and they were roommates, and you
• 23:42
  know what comes next, and you know where that's from.
• 23:44
  Georgia Hampton: And they were roommates.
• 23:46
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah. There's something about that that's
• 23:48
  kinda sweet that is sort of communal, but it kind of I feel
• 23:52
  like in a way, it feels the most that way in the real world with
• 23:56
  other people.
• 23:57
  Mike Rugnetta: And I think there's still a big distinction
• 23:59
  between, like I'm gonna talk in generalities here, and like what
• 24:02
  I'm about to say doesn't apply to say, like, people who are
• 24:05
  gonna go on Jeopardy! Or like Don Caldwell from Know Your
• 24:08
  Meme. Watch yourself, counselor. The idea of trivia is that you,
• 24:15
  just through the way that you live your life and the sort of,
• 24:21
  like, you know, who you are, you are in possession of information
• 24:25
  that is at that particular moment and perhaps no other
• 24:28
  moment immediately useful to answer a question. Whereas I see
• 24:31
  a lot of people using their devices, being online, scrolling
• 24:35
  TikTok, scrolling Instagram, etcetera etcetera, like, using
• 24:38
  the excuse of being like, well, I gotta know what's going on out
• 24:40
  there.
• 24:41
  Like, I gotta sort of, like, actively dig through this pile
• 24:45
  of stuff and like kinda hurt myself a little bit in the
• 24:48
  process Mhmm. So that I know what's going on. I think unless
• 24:51
  you are a professional trivia person, the people who play
• 24:55
  trivia most regularly, and I have a lot of friends who do,
• 24:57
  they're not like studying. But they are studious people.
• 25:02
  Jason Oberholtzer: My takeaway from all the responses we've
• 25:03
  gotten to your brain rot segment is, I think to notice that
• 25:08
  people have a very difficult time defining what productive
• 25:12
  uses of their time are as soon as they are asked to so without
• 25:15
  a capitalistic framework.
• 25:17
  Mike Rugnetta: Yeah.
• 25:17
  Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Everyone answers that a little
• 25:19
  differently, or like makes a little bit of a different
• 25:22
  deflection on the answer, as if they cannot just wholeheartedly
• 25:26
  say, I enjoy doing this with my time, and so I do.
• 25:30
  Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. And and even though it makes me no money
• 25:33
  or whatever, like, don't feel guilty about that.
• 25:35
  Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah.
• 25:36
  Hans Buetow: So with that, let's take a little break so I can go
• 25:39
  check my texts, my TikTok, my Instagram, all the things.
• 25:45
  Because I don't know what happened in the last twenty
• 25:47
  minutes, but
• 25:48
  Mike Rugnetta: Gotta go make sure. Maybe it could have been
• 25:49
  Hans Buetow: some guy. Gotta yeah. So sorry. We'll be right
• 25:52
  back.
• 26:09
  Jason Oberholtzer: Welcome back everyone. I hope you enjoyed
• 26:11
  that break wherein you looked at a different screen and waited
• 26:15
  for us to come back. Next up, we have a response to a segment I
• 26:21
  did over the summer with Hannah Paivo about charts in the early
• 26:26
  nineteen hundreds, and the ways in which charting came from the
• 26:29
  cartographers of the world, historians, and the academics
• 26:34
  into the greedy little hands of business. And what that meant
• 26:41
  about the dissemination of data and its magical powers of
• 26:45
  prognostication. I have not heard this response at all, but
• 26:50
  Hans assures me I will enjoy it.
• 26:51
  So Hans, show me what I'm in store for.
• 26:54
  Hans Buetow: We got a message, an audio message from Talia, who
• 26:58
  we heard from a little bit earlier in the in the episode.
• 27:01
  They sent us this pretty incredible thing with the tag.
• 27:04
  They're all good segments, Brent, but I have listened to
• 27:07
  the charts one like four times.
• 27:12
  Talia: Hey, Inverpost. This is Talia. I'm coming to you today
• 27:17
  from a far noisier place than I normally do. It's Friday
• 27:22
  afternoon in the hot lab, which is where I work, which means
• 27:28
  it's time for the end of week monitoring sweep. And I have
• 27:32
  been thinking a lot about the formalism thing that Jason
• 27:37
  discussed and how much I have grown to have after working in
• 27:47
  HOT Labs for the last six or seven years, a sense of
• 27:50
  formalism based on the sensor, which is a radioactive sensor,
• 27:56
  which you potentially can hear in the background.
• 27:58
  Jason Oberholtzer: I was wondering what that was.
• 27:59
  Georgia Hampton: Yep. The
• 28:00
  Talia: afternoon monitoring sweep is to check whether or not
• 28:03
  the laboratory is clean and safe and if everything that should be
• 28:07
  active or hot, as we like to call it, is in its rightful
• 28:11
  place. So rest assured, I'm a professional and
• 28:15
  Georgia Hampton: I know what I'm doing.
• 28:16
  Talia: Don't worry if
• 28:17
  Georgia Hampton: it happens to sound noisy Okay.
• 28:19
  Talia: With chirps over here. But I thought that this would be
• 28:23
  a nice submission for the charts that Jason requested as this is
• 28:27
  a sensor that moves through the chart of space in the laboratory
• 28:31
  in the jerk. And I think the way in which these trips have come
• 28:37
  to mean something to me, but potentially don't mean anything
• 28:40
  to you, is is interesting as a discussion on, like, that that
• 28:47
  kind of idea of, like, how the form becomes or starts to mean
• 28:51
  something the more you interact with it. Anyway, I'm gonna stop
• 28:57
  talking and just do the sweep. Okay.
• 29:03
  Hans Buetow: So this message goes on for another
• 29:07
  Jason Oberholtzer: Oh, Talia, get out of there. No.
• 29:10
  Hans Buetow: Another five minutes and it goes a lot of
• 29:13
  places. Talia's really doing the work over that. Let me play you
• 29:16
  just a couple of moments that happen within the next four
• 29:19
  minutes of Talia's life.
• 29:20
  Mike Rugnetta: Can I just read one one thing, Hans, before you
• 29:23
  start it? Yeah. Okay. A hot lab is a secure shielded room in
• 29:27
  hospitals or research facilities for safely handling, preparing,
• 29:31
  and storing radioactive materials used in nuclear
• 29:35
  medicine and therapy.
• 29:38
  Jason Oberholtzer: Talia, just Okay.
• 29:40
  Georgia Hampton: Our first radioactive audio clip.
• 29:43
  Hans Buetow: So apparently, they can just use their phone in
• 29:46
  there because this is these are these are two examples of what
• 29:49
  we get later.
• 29:55
  Jason Oberholtzer: Is that good?
• 29:56
  Georgia Hampton: I don't think so. They are a professional.
• 30:00
  Jason Oberholtzer: Are a professional.
• 30:01
  Georgia Hampton: Hearing that sound, does that feel good?
• 30:05
  Jason Oberholtzer: No. It does not. Something about the form of
• 30:08
  it.
• 30:14
  Mike Rugnetta: I don't think I like charts.
• 30:16
  Georgia Hampton: I'm scared. I'm scared. So by the end of
• 30:19
  Hans Buetow: it, Talia gets into a little bit calmer area.
• 30:27
  Georgia Hampton: This is even scarier to be seen. Yeah.
• 30:30
  Jason Oberholtzer: I embraced. Is that good?
• 30:37
  Georgia Hampton: Who is that? Don't know. Okay.
• 30:40
  Hans Buetow: Again, Talia is a professional.
• 30:44
  Georgia Hampton: A secret third thing.
• 30:53
  Talia: Okay. Well, that's all the serious stuff done. As
• 30:59
  always, loving the show.
• 31:14
  Mike Rugnetta: Bizarrely stressful.
• 31:15
  Georgia Hampton: Why is it?
• 31:16
  Mike Rugnetta: What is the part of my, like, animal brain that's
• 31:19
  like, that's bad. That's just bad.
• 31:21
  Georgia Hampton: That's bad.
• 31:22
  Georgia Hampton: Get out of there.
• 31:23
  Jason Oberholtzer: I cannot overemphasize how much everyone
• 31:25
  was fidgeting and moving around frame that entire time. Nobody
• 31:29
  was comfortable.
• 31:30
  Hans Buetow: Oh, that's also only segments of it. I'm it
• 31:33
  literally go it's four minutes long of them just
• 31:35
  Jason Oberholtzer: going through the room. That is truly
• 31:38
  Incredible. Wild.
• 31:40
  Georgia Hampton: Speaking of unsettling and alarming sounds,
• 31:45
  Adam, sent in a note about my segment with Luis Lopez on Burnt
• 31:52
  Toast Audio, which if you do not recall, was this audio trend
• 31:59
  where people intentionally peak their audio and just blow out
• 32:03
  the sound.
• 32:05
  Adam: On the opposite end of mic clipping, I've noticed this
• 32:08
  thing where people will move their face away from a mic to
• 32:12
  yell, and it just has a very particular vibe to it that
• 32:15
  creates this mixture of both yelling and whispering as
• 32:19
  they're no longer speaking directly into the mic, but
• 32:21
  they're still talking at a loud volume. I feel like I see it a
• 32:24
  lot when people are making comments that are either open
• 32:27
  secrets or very private hush-hush secrets. I couldn't
• 32:31
  find any good analysis about this online, so I wanted to see
• 32:34
  what you all could dig up. Thanks. This is truly one of my
• 32:37
  favorite podcasts, and I look forward to every new episode.
• 32:40
  Mike Rugnetta: Oh, thanks, Adam.
• 32:41
  Georgia Hampton: Thanks, Adam. Okay. This I'm obsessed with
• 32:43
  this because I know exactly what you're talking about.
• 32:46
  Jason Oberholtzer: Can you do it?
• 32:48
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah. So it'd be kind of like, I'm talking to
• 32:51
  you over here.
• 32:52
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah.
• 32:54
  Georgia Hampton: And then I move away
• 32:56
  Georgia Hampton: Okay.
• 32:56
  Georgia Hampton: And in interact with the space I'm in more
• 33:01
  pointedly.
• 33:02
  Mike Rugnetta: And while you're back there, you talk about how,
• 33:04
  like, someone is cheating on their significant other? Like,
• 33:06
  is that
• 33:06
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Is that,
• 33:07
  Mike Rugnetta: like, the gossip you enter the gossip zone?
• 33:08
  You're like,
• 33:10
  Georgia Hampton: so this celebrity has done something
• 33:14
  normal and innocuous.
• 33:15
  Hans Buetow: The smash cut, probably.
• 33:17
  Georgia Hampton: Not that we would ever forget the terrible
• 33:19
  and horrible crimes they've committed.
• 33:22
  Hans Buetow: Smash cut back.
• 33:23
  Georgia Hampton: So anyway, like, it's yeah. It's
• 33:25
  Mike Rugnetta: this Sure. Yeah.
• 33:26
  Georgia Hampton: It's this, like, analog
• 33:28
  Mike Rugnetta: It's like the Greek chorus almost.
• 33:29
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's this analog way of
• 33:32
  cutting. It's an emphasis on what you're saying in the
• 33:38
  opposite, which is interesting.
• 33:40
  Mike Rugnetta: It's it's sort of posits, like, you know, like the
• 33:43
  whisper is like a very particular kind of emphasis that
• 33:46
  it's close and a change in vocal timbre. Like, you know, you
• 33:50
  can't really, the only way that you can hear this is like, you
• 33:53
  really have to get in there. But like, this sort of does the
• 33:56
  opposite where it's like, it forces you to yell, but it still
• 34:01
  sort of like enters this whole other space.
• 34:03
  Georgia Hampton: Well and I think there's the an implication
• 34:05
  there that it's like, I'm yelling and no one can hear me.
• 34:08
  Mike Rugnetta: Oh, interesting.
• 34:09
  Georgia Hampton: Like, no.
• 34:09
  Georgia Hampton: I didn't think about that.
• 34:10
  Georgia Hampton: Like, I'm saying this thing, like, don't
• 34:12
  you under like, it's sort of you, like, slapping your hands
• 34:15
  against the glass being like trying to warn
• 34:17
  Mike Rugnetta: you. Yeah.
• 34:18
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah. I've tried to warn you. Don't like,
• 34:20
  don't you see I'm yelling and no one can hear me.
• 34:24
  Hans Buetow: One of the things that I teach students when we
• 34:26
  work on audio only things and I talk about writing for audio is
• 34:31
  that grammar, as it is generally taught, is a written person's
• 34:36
  game Yeah. And not a reading or talking person's game. We do not
• 34:41
  talk with proper grammar, and we never will. If you wanna sound
• 34:44
  natural, ignore grammar. Of course, don't because you need
• 34:47
  to make it legible when you read it and things, but this feels
• 34:49
  like another entry into a grammar
• 34:53
  Mike Rugnetta: of audio.
• 34:55
  Georgia Hampton: Oh, a 100%.
• 34:56
  Mike Rugnetta: I agree with that.
• 34:56
  Georgia Hampton: Because there's also kind of a like, it's a
• 34:58
  parenthetical almost.
• 35:00
  Hans Buetow: Yeah. Like this what you're saying so much more.
• 35:02
  It is a parenthetical, but it's like a nuanced parenthetical.
• 35:05
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Well, because it's not it's not just
• 35:07
  necessarily, like, I'm yelling and no one can hear me. It's
• 35:10
  almost like I'm yelling. I'm far enough away from the mic where
• 35:13
  there's almost this implication that, like, I don't know you can
• 35:16
  hear me. Like, whereas I'm right here right now, and I know that
• 35:20
  you can hear me.
• 35:21
  I'm right by my mic. I am intentionally recording my
• 35:23
  voice. Whereas if I move four feet back, there's this sort of
• 35:29
  implicit feeling of, like, maybe I'm saying this and I don't know
• 35:32
  that you can hear me.
• 35:34
  Mike Rugnetta: I wonder how much of it is derived from the
• 35:37
  practical concerns of, Yeah. These are things that you want
• 35:40
  to shout because they frustrate you, but that would make the
• 35:42
  audio sound bad, so you just move away a little bit.
• 35:45
  Hans Buetow: But with burnt toast, you'd be looking for
• 35:47
  that.
• 35:47
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah.
• 35:48
  Hans Buetow: Like, staying close to your mic and blowing it out
• 35:50
  according to Georgia's thesis is actually a thing you could do,
• 35:53
  and it would mean something.
• 35:55
  Meghal Janardan: Yeah. There is something this phenomenon of,
• 35:59
  like, either intentionally, like, okay, come closer, come
• 36:01
  closer, and then whispering into your mic or, like, going back
• 36:07
  reminds me of, like, millennials use of jump cuts Yes. Yeah. And
• 36:12
  the videos that they make.
• 36:13
  Hans Buetow: Sure.
• 36:13
  Meghal Janardan: Mhmm. It feels very millennial to
• 36:16
  Georgia Hampton: me. Uh-oh. That well, that's interesting to me
• 36:20
  because I feel like the millennial jump cut is much more
• 36:22
  effort Because in that case, you are actually cutting the video,
• 36:28
  like, are going in after the fact and cutting it. Whereas
• 36:30
  this is such a, like to me, this feels very very close to the
• 36:36
  medium that you see it in, at least that I see it in, which is
• 36:39
  more like short form video TikTok, that kind of stuff,
• 36:41
  vertical video, where the idea is that you can just make a
• 36:45
  video right now. I don't have time to do all this stuff.
• 36:48
  So I'm just going to get this message across as quickly as I
• 36:51
  can.
• 36:52
  Georgia Hampton: Yes. Adam,
• 36:53
  Georgia Hampton: this is so interesting. I could write an
• 36:55
  entire other, segment about this, and maybe I will.
• 36:59
  Georgia Hampton: No. Wait. Hold on.
• 37:00
  Georgia Hampton: Hold on.
• 37:00
  Georgia Hampton: And maybe I will. A
• 37:06
  Mike Rugnetta: little while ago, I did a segment about how
• 37:08
  artificial intelligence is helping contribute to the
• 37:11
  aesthetic of new American fascism. And Dan wrote us an
• 37:14
  email, and Dan says, since listening to your episode about
• 37:17
  AI and new American fascism, I can't stop thinking about how
• 37:20
  the Fasc Bros' latest obsession of AI contrasts with and
• 37:24
  contradicts their previous obsession with cryptocurrency.
• 37:28
  Specifically, how the supposed advantage of crypto, its ability
• 37:32
  to substitute fiat government banking with cryptographic proof
• 37:35
  of work runs completely counter to the inherent premise of AI.
• 37:39
  What is at its core evidence of a lack of work. So much of the
• 37:44
  hype of crypto seems nominally predicated on the belief that
• 37:46
  the proof of work equals scarcity, and therefore
• 37:50
  legitimacy as a currency.
• 37:52
  But AI throws out that notion that proof of work matters at
• 37:56
  all, insisting that only the end result is of any importance to
• 38:00
  the audience. The fact that adherence to one of these
• 38:03
  technologies are typically adherence to the other belies
• 38:05
  crypto's stated necessity. If the ultimate goal of AI is to
• 38:09
  get work without any effort, then perhaps predicating an
• 38:12
  entire economic system on computational work isn't the
• 38:15
  democratic decentralized anti establishment tool we were told
• 38:18
  it would be. Perhaps even it's just another tool for
• 38:21
  speculating, scams, and buying sketchy drugs on the dark web.
• 38:25
  Okay.
• 38:25
  Listen. As someone with friends who buy a lot of sketchy drugs
• 38:28
  on the dark web, like, that part, let's, you know, let's let
• 38:32
  people buy their sketchy drugs. Everything else, hell yeah, Dan.
• 38:36
  Georgia Hampton: Well, in truth, you should be buying sketchy
• 38:38
  drugs from your own
• 38:40
  Mike Rugnetta: community. Lately.
• 38:42
  Georgia Hampton: Sores. You. You go You should be going
• 38:44
  Mike Rugnetta: to Providence. Yeah. I mean, I think that this
• 38:50
  is a set of people who generally is interested in one thing and
• 38:53
  it's political expediency. And so they will do whatever is
• 38:56
  politically expedient in any given scenario, and they're
• 38:58
  doing the politically expedient thing in both of these
• 39:01
  scenarios. The fact that those two things don't necessarily
• 39:04
  line up to form a coherent I don't even wanna call it
• 39:08
  ideology.
• 39:09
  A coherent line of reasoning is like, Dan, you have given this a
• 39:13
  thousand times more thought than any of the people who are
• 39:16
  interested in both of these technologies.
• 39:19
  Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Yeah. Think the center of the Venn
• 39:21
  diagram between the two is what is an easy answer for how can I
• 39:26
  receive things from the world when I have absolutely nothing
• 39:30
  of value to give the world?
• 39:32
  Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Yeah. I guess in that way, it's very
• 39:35
  coherent.
• 39:36
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah.
• 39:37
  Georgia Hampton: So we got a very interesting comment in, of
• 39:43
  all places, our subreddit, which if you did not know this
• 39:46
  existed, you should go to r/neverpost and join the
• 39:51
  community there. Make your voice heard. Tell us your thoughts. We
• 39:54
  are constantly reading it. Sometimes we might even comment
• 39:56
  in there.
• 39:57
  Hans Buetow: We're in there.
• 39:57
  Georgia Hampton: We're in there, and I was in there when I found
• 40:00
  this comment. So, frequent, chat participant in our, live
• 40:10
  streams, which if you'd also like to, see our beautiful faces
• 40:15
  there, it is twitch.tv/theneverpost. User
• 40:19
  nondeterminist system wrote a really interesting comment on
• 40:24
  our subreddit about my episode that came out in October about
• 40:28
  digital witchcraft, Etsy witches, and the industry of
• 40:31
  witchcraft on the Internet. And they write, I had a few quick
• 40:36
  thoughts after listening to this episode. First, one thing that I
• 40:40
  may ruminate on and come back with a more fleshed out thought
• 40:43
  later.
• 40:43
  Mahegan Saint Pierre talked about acting as an intermediary
• 40:46
  between the living and the spirits. It occurred to me that,
• 40:50
  for most people, the Internet is a vast ethereal world with
• 40:54
  unpredictable agents whose will often requires interpretation
• 40:58
  and intercession. Maybe we need new kinds of spiritual
• 41:02
  intermediaries for our new realities. Or maybe we're
• 41:05
  already trying to think of the Internet as a spiritual place,
• 41:09
  and maybe some of our angst about the current state of the
• 41:12
  Internet can be thought of as spiritual. Second, and
• 41:16
  relatedly, I'd love to hear more from practitioners of other
• 41:19
  religions and faith traditions about how their beliefs and
• 41:22
  practices have been impacted by the Internet.
• 41:25
  Well, Alex Friedman, rabbi who wrote in to us, I'd be very
• 41:30
  interested if you have thoughts about this. Yeah. Yeah. I do
• 41:33
  think this is an interesting idea of looking at our
• 41:35
  relationship to the Internet as spiritual. I think it's that's
• 41:39
  certainly its own thing.
• 41:41
  I don't want to equate the industry and existence of
• 41:45
  witchcraft on the Internet with a broader spirituality about the
• 41:51
  Internet. But I do think there is there is truth in this
• 41:56
  feeling that the Internet does, by virtue of it existing through
• 42:02
  devices, but not in a particular place. It's sort of a this vast
• 42:07
  endless more conceptual space that there is a a desire to
• 42:15
  ground it, to understand it, to interpret it in a way that I
• 42:18
  think does feel similar to spiritual practice. There's a
• 42:22
  desire to, like, interpret, understand, have people who
• 42:26
  interpret it for us who feel more, like, authorities.
• 42:32
  Mike Rugnetta: And that's why I have to look at my phone for
• 42:34
  fourteen hours every day to make sure that I know enough to guide
• 42:37
  people through
• 42:38
  Georgia Hampton: the Exactly. Exactly. I was gonna say I do
• 42:41
  feel I I worry that us on this call I mean, I certainly fall
• 42:46
  into that, where I'm like, I gotta I gotta learn so that I
• 42:51
  can I can explain? Mhmm.
• 42:55
  Meghal Janardan: I would also say that what this made me think
• 42:57
  of is how sometimes people have a crisis of faith, where going
• 43:01
  to church every week, doing this thing doesn't feel the same
• 43:04
  anymore. It's not they're not getting what they used to get
• 43:07
  out of it. And that makes me think of how I feel about the
• 43:11
  Internet. I used to go to the Internet. When I would go
• 43:14
  online, I would feel a certain way.
• 43:16
  I would frequent certain websites, engage in certain
• 43:19
  content, whatever. And I'm always almost having a crisis of
• 43:23
  faith when it comes to the Internet. I don't feel the same
• 43:26
  anymore when I gauge in certain times of types of content, and
• 43:30
  I'm in certain spaces. And that makes me think of how maybe,
• 43:35
  yeah, the Internet is kind of a place that is very similar to,
• 43:39
  like, a spiritual practice.
• 43:42
  Mike Rugnetta: And which is also, like, getting actively
• 43:44
  worse. Like, you know Yes. I don't as I don't participate in
• 43:48
  religion too much, so I don't know how often that that
• 43:50
  happens. It certainly has famously happened in a couple
• 43:53
  places in The United States over the last thirty or so years.
• 43:56
  But, like, I think that's also part of it is that it's like, it
• 43:58
  is actually demonstrably getting less pleasant and harder to use.
• 44:03
  Mhmm.
• 44:04
  Hans Buetow: Yeah. Speaking of getting less pleasant and harder
• 44:07
  to use, unless you're a member, it's time to hear some ads.
• 44:14
  We'll be right back.
• 44:31
  Mike Rugnetta: Folks, I got good news for us. Finally. Finally,
• 44:34
  good news after all those ads. We got a Molly's Corner.
• 44:38
  Georgia Hampton: Yes. Yes.
• 44:41
  Mike Rugnetta: I have no clue what this is. For anybody who is
• 44:54
  a new listener, Molly, my wife, occasionally calls in and asks
• 44:57
  questions or make statements that are completely unrelated to
• 45:00
  the show.
• 45:01
  Hans Buetow: Yes. Today, we hear from Molly Underground.
• 45:07
  Molly: Hi. It's me. I was just getting the m train up town from
• 45:12
  Delancey Essex Street. And one thing they've done, everything
• 45:16
  is install a screen that tells you on the m Platform when the f
• 45:21
  is coming because it's not in New York. These are trains that
• 45:24
  basically go on the same route that are on different levels of
• 45:26
  the subway platform.
• 45:28
  For the years, there's been one stairway between the two
• 45:30
  platforms where people would either stand at the top or stand
• 45:33
  at the bottom, look out for when the train was coming, and then
• 45:36
  communicate to strangers to say, come up here or go down there,
• 45:42
  and and people would essentially shave one or two minutes off
• 45:45
  their commute. Very important. But they since they've installed
• 45:49
  the screen, now you can stand on the m platform and see when the
• 45:51
  app coming. I assume the same as Shu downstairs. And it's just a
• 45:55
  bit sad to me, really, because I love that I love the forcing
• 45:59
  function of having to communicate with a stranger to
• 46:01
  figure something out in the city.
• 46:04
  And it made me wonder if any of you have examples of where,
• 46:09
  like, technology has arguably made your life better. It
• 46:12
  actually makes you a little bit sad because maybe it's the right
• 46:17
  some kind of human connection or something that was pleasurable
• 46:20
  to do that took longer than the way you do it now. Anyway, I was
• 46:25
  just thinking about that. So gladly. Know
• 46:28
  Mike Rugnetta: exactly what Molly's talking about. Is this
• 46:29
  clear to everybody what's going on here?
• 46:31
  Hans Buetow: Yeah. I think so. Yeah. I think so. Two two
• 46:34
  different levels of people talking to each other about
• 46:35
  which train is coming first.
• 46:36
  Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. And then they put it they put a screen
• 46:38
  in. You don't to do that anymore.
• 46:39
  Meghal Janardan: Yeah. Molly trusting the screen is what I'm
• 46:43
  Georgia Hampton: not sure
• 46:43
  Meghal Janardan: about. Yeah.
• 46:44
  Mike Rugnetta: I find those screens generally are right
• 46:47
  unless they say, hey. I'm a screen. I'm broken.
• 46:50
  Georgia Hampton: Nope. Which is Hey. Often. Often. So maybe No.
• 46:55
  Georgia Hampton: Okay. But okay. To her question, does this make
• 47:00
  you think of another example?
• 47:01
  Mike Rugnetta: Absolutely. Something came right to mind
• 47:03
  when they installed checkout kiosks at the library. Oh. I
• 47:09
  love talking to our librarians. They're great.
• 47:11
  Hans Buetow: Yeah.
• 47:12
  Mike Rugnetta: Like, I loved going to the desk and, like,
• 47:14
  having a little chat, talking about books, and, like, getting
• 47:17
  recommended other books. And, like, I sometimes I did have to
• 47:20
  wait in line.
• 47:21
  Hans Buetow: Mike, that's a good one because I feel the same way.
• 47:24
  I think I'm on record on this show saying I don't use self
• 47:28
  checkout in lines. Oh,
• 47:29
  Mike Rugnetta: yeah. Interesting.
• 47:30
  Hans Buetow: And and a similar reason where, like and it's a
• 47:33
  similar reason to, like, what Alex was saying way at the
• 47:36
  beginning of this episode, which is, like, there's certain social
• 47:38
  contracts and the fact that people still wear their pajamas
• 47:41
  to the store and then can check out without interacting with a
• 47:44
  single person. It leads to this idea that these spaces are your
• 47:48
  living room, and they are not
• 47:50
  Mike Rugnetta: Bypass by bypassing all of the moments
• 47:52
  wherein they may be slightly judged.
• 47:55
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Yeah. Hold on. Why is wearing pajamas
• 47:57
  to the store catching strays right
• 47:59
  Meghal Janardan: now? Yeah.
• 48:00
  Mike Rugnetta: Hans is actually a Russian grandma that thinks
• 48:02
  that you should have a full face of makeup and red lipstick every
• 48:05
  time
• 48:05
  Georgia Hampton: you leave silence. All
• 48:06
  Georgia Hampton: of us. Right?
• 48:07
  Georgia Hampton: All of us. Yes. All of us doing
• 48:09
  Mike Rugnetta: that. Yep.
• 48:10
  Georgia Hampton: No. I this then makes me think of it's funny
• 48:13
  when when I was listening to Molly's Molly's Corner. I wasn't
• 48:17
  originally thinking of this, but the other day, was walking down
• 48:20
  the street and I saw a little restaurant in my neighborhood
• 48:25
  that basically deals entirely in online orders. Nobody ever goes
• 48:29
  in there and sits there. It's just picking up or getting
• 48:31
  DoorDash or whatever.
• 48:33
  I have certainly been someone who does this, but it does make
• 48:36
  me sad to see entire restaurants that are just completely empty,
• 48:41
  have all the trappings of a regular restaurant, have seats,
• 48:44
  have chairs of everything, and nobody's ever there because
• 48:47
  they're never going to be there because this has been determined
• 48:50
  to be a takeout restaurant.
• 48:52
  Mike Rugnetta: There's an incredible thread on the I
• 48:54
  believe the Bed Stuy, the neighborhood that I live in
• 48:57
  subreddit, where someone is like, hey, where are the good
• 49:01
  Indian food restaurants where people actually sit down in the
• 49:05
  restaurant Yes. And eat in the restaurant? I want I wanna go. I
• 49:10
  have a first date coming up or something like that, and I wanna
• 49:12
  go, and I don't want the two of us. We wanna get Indian food,
• 49:15
  but, like, we don't want the two of us to be the only people in
• 49:18
  the restaurant.
• 49:19
  Oh, And every single comment is like, oh, this place is really
• 49:23
  good. And then people being like, you didn't he doesn't
• 49:25
  yeah. But it's always empty.
• 49:27
  Georgia Hampton: But it's a takeout restaurant.
• 49:28
  Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Only just a group of guys on bikes waiting
• 49:30
  outside constantly.
• 49:32
  Meghal Janardan: Do you think then it's this is kind of part
• 49:34
  of the bigger conversation that about convenience, and this is
• 49:38
  actually the pain of convenience?
• 49:40
  Mike Rugnetta: Yes. Absolutely. 100%. Yeah. The destruction of
• 49:42
  the sensual world at the the altar of convenience.
• 49:46
  Yeah.
• 49:46
  Jason Oberholtzer: Mhmm.
• 49:48
  Hans Buetow: Jason? Yes? You look like you were gonna say
• 49:51
  something. I wanna give you a chance before we move on.
• 49:54
  Jason Oberholtzer: I was gonna try to, and I haven't figured
• 49:56
  out how to use the altar pivot to land a religious button to
• 49:59
  move us on. Okay. Ended at the altar of convenience.
• 50:04
  Mike Rugnetta: Sir Suri is mouse in French, and mice inhabit
• 50:08
  churches. Church mouse.
• 50:09
  Georgia Hampton: Mice are very religious.
• 50:11
  Mike Rugnetta: This is a well known fact. Mice love Jesus.
• 50:14
  Jason Oberholtzer: All of this is.
• 50:14
  Mike Rugnetta: Mice love Jesus. Jesus. They're constantly
• 50:18
  telling me. Yeah.
• 50:19
  Meghal Janardan: And we actually I think like most Ganesha
• 50:21
  statues, there is a mouse.
• 50:24
  Jason Oberholtzer: I feel like I missed an entire connective step
• 50:27
  in this. Why am I here?
• 50:29
  Mike Rugnetta: I feel like we should just leave this in and
• 50:31
  then just talking about start talking about one word graffiti.
• 50:33
  Georgia Hampton: Blessed are the meat.
• 50:34
  Georgia Hampton: Okay. A mouse.
• 50:37
  Georgia Hampton: What's the great or not the great mouse
• 50:39
  detective. This one
• 50:40
  Jason Oberholtzer: Why are we talking about mice?
• 50:44
  Georgia Hampton: What's this? The Jewish
• 50:45
  Mike Rugnetta: No one tell
• 50:46
  Georgia Hampton: Jason. One. That's about mice.
• 50:49
  Jason Oberholtzer: Fievel Goes West is a Jewish movie? Yes. But
• 50:54
  he's a cowboy.
• 50:57
  Georgia Hampton: Careful. Why are we talking about the cowboy?
• 51:00
  That's okay.
• 51:02
  Jason Oberholtzer: How about this? Andy's a cowboy.
• 51:04
  Georgia Hampton: There you go.
• 51:05
  Mike Rugnetta: We got a bunch of one word graffiti mostly from
• 51:07
  the subreddit.
• 51:09
  Jason Oberholtzer: Good god. Alright. Yeah, gang. Hey.
• 51:13
  Remember when I told you all to stop doing this last time?
• 51:16
  Well, you didn't fucking listen, did you? I'm gonna rattle off
• 51:19
  some one word graffiti for you, which to be fair, you all were
• 51:24
  very good rule followers this time. Maybe it's because you
• 51:27
  listened to an episode of Normal Gossip where Mike Rickenetta
• 51:30
  talked about being a rule follower, but you're doing good
• 51:35
  this time. Alright. Reddit user, vim dynamo, sent in Souris, s o
• 51:43
  u r I s.
• 51:44
  And in that thread are a bunch of people talking about this
• 51:47
  word that is baffling to me. I'm not gonna spoil it. You gotta go
• 51:51
  to the subreddit and figure out what the fuck Cerus is all
• 51:53
  about.
• 51:53
  Mike Rugnetta: It's good. There's a whole discussion. It's
• 51:55
  great.
• 51:55
  Jason Oberholtzer: Next up, Vogie sends in p s y c psych.
• 52:02
  Psych. On the side of, like, a transformer unit. That's kind of
• 52:05
  fun.
• 52:06
  Hans Buetow: With just pigeons and pigeons?
• 52:09
  Georgia Hampton: I don't think that's not
• 52:10
  Hans Buetow: a pigeons.
• 52:11
  Georgia Hampton: That's are those assumptions? It's
• 52:13
  something far more worried.
• 52:20
  Georgia Hampton: Those are bushcats. It's
• 52:22
  Mike Rugnetta: I this image is spooky.
• 52:24
  Georgia Hampton: There's a darkness here. Yeah.
• 52:27
  Jason Oberholtzer: If Saff only sends in dong.
• 52:31
  Hans Buetow: Dong.
• 52:31
  Mike Rugnetta: Dong dong near soup.
• 52:33
  Georgia Hampton: Oh, yeah. There's a bunch of I didn't see
• 52:36
  that ever.
• 52:37
  Mike Rugnetta: That just makes it for me. Yeah. Dong near soup.
• 52:39
  Hans Buetow: Campbell's cream of something.
• 52:41
  Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Oh, this next one rips so hard.
• 52:44
  Jason Oberholtzer: Todd from Montreal sends sends in and a
• 52:49
  little Mario guy with a b on his hat.
• 52:51
  Mike Rugnetta: I'm gonna say that this barely it is one word,
• 52:54
  but, like, maximum effort.
• 52:56
  Jason Oberholtzer: It is a full wall mural
• 52:57
  Mike Rugnetta: of graffiti. With, like, three d letters.
• 53:00
  Carolyn
• 53:06
  Jason Oberholtzer: Thompson from Portland, Oregon sends in queso.
• 53:08
  It appears twice. Queso queso, and it's stenciled on the
• 53:11
  street. So in a few ways, you are pushing credulity, but I'll
• 53:15
  let it in.
• 53:16
  Meghal Janardan: And it's yellow. Like queso.
• 53:19
  Hans Buetow: Like queso.
• 53:20
  Jason Oberholtzer: We do like that.
• 53:21
  Mike Rugnetta: I like that it's also in this very pleasing
• 53:24
  triangle.
• 53:24
  Jason Oberholtzer: Like a chip almost. Yeah. Like a tortilla
• 53:28
  chip. You know what? Cameron, this is good now.
• 53:31
  I'm gonna forgive this being both a stencil and the same word
• 53:34
  twice.
• 53:34
  Georgia Hampton: Wait. What's wrong with the stencil? Yeah.
• 53:37
  Why is that a problem?
• 53:38
  Mike Rugnetta: Jason's the, in charge of He's the decider.
• 53:40
  Yeah.
• 53:41
  Hans Buetow: Yep. There's lots of mostly,
• 53:44
  Mike Rugnetta: we must cater to his whims.
• 53:45
  Georgia Hampton: That's so true.
• 53:46
  Jason Oberholtzer: I just feel like spray painting through a
• 53:48
  stencil is not quite the spirit of one word graffiti.
• 53:52
  Georgia Hampton: Fair enough. Fair enough.
• 53:53
  Jason Oberholtzer: And finally, quirky spirit five nine eight
• 53:56
  zero in the subreddit sends in a sign that appears to say shit
• 54:01
  bottle on it, and one imagines someone spray painted something
• 54:05
  to change it from what it once said.
• 54:06
  Mike Rugnetta: There's a whole story. This is less than one
• 54:08
  word graffiti. It is people adding a single horizontal line
• 54:13
  to the signs for a town named Shillbottle.
• 54:16
  Georgia Hampton: Uh-huh. Knew it. Yes.
• 54:19
  Mike Rugnetta: Jason, in fact, two months ago, you responded to
• 54:21
  this saying, the purest entry.
• 54:24
  Georgia Hampton: Yes. We'll see if
• 54:27
  Mike Rugnetta: past Jason agrees with the whims of present Jason.
• 54:32
  Jason Oberholtzer: Well, I myself feel like something of a
• 54:34
  shit bottle right now. So I think that's as good a reason as
• 54:38
  any to say, thank you all for your one word graffiti. You did
• 54:41
  much better this time around. I'm proud of you all and my
• 54:44
  holiday gift is for the next mailbag, you can send me two and
• 54:51
  only two word graffiti. Oh.
• 54:54
  Wow. Thank you all your little shit bottles out there. See you
• 54:57
  next time.
• 54:58
  Mike Rugnetta: Thanks for listening everybody. Done.