Latest / Sex Advice for Seniors Podcast / Why Sex Changes After 50 and What Nobody Tells You | ft. Dr. Jenn Kennedy

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Why Sex Changes After 50 and What Nobody Tells You | ft. Dr. Jenn Kennedy · Sex Advice for Seniors Podcast

0:05
SPEAKER_01: Intimacy doesn't have an age limit and Oh My Bod is redefining pleasure
0:10
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0:14
SPEAKER_01: Rediscover connection and confidence at ohmybod.com.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: That's O-H-M-I-B-O-D dot com.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: Hi, this is Suzanne and you are listening to Sex Advice for Seniors
0:34
SPEAKER_01: and today I'm actually recording from my bedroom
0:37
SPEAKER_01: because my usual place is being occupied by my cleaner and I'm feeling in
0:43
SPEAKER_01: a very sexy mood as a result of that.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: Sitting here lying in my bed surrounded by my fluffy pillows that you can't see
0:51
SPEAKER_01: and Three boxes of sex toys, which we can get onto later.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: But I'm very excited to welcome my guest.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: It's her morning.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: It's my evening.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: She's in Santa Barbara and her name is Dr. Jen Kennedy.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: She's a clinical sexologist and a licensed marriage
1:07
SPEAKER_01: and family therapist specializing in sex and couples therapy.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: And she's the founder of The Pleasure Project,
1:14
SPEAKER_01: which is an organization that a friend of mine is also a member of.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: But it's a completely different organization.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: You probably know there's two pleasure projects.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: One is a big not-for-profit that my friend runs.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: And now there's yours in the U.S.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: But Jen runs a group therapy practice in California.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: She works with couples and individuals.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: And she also hosts a podcast called The Pleasure Project Sex and Relationships.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: And she's been featured in loads of places, including Forbes Health, Allure...
1:46
SPEAKER_01: So I want to ask you, Jen, firstly, welcome to Sex Advice for Seniors.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: You work with a lot of couples in their 50s and 60s and beyond.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: What's a common issue that they come to you with that they're almost too embarrassed
2:01
SPEAKER_01: to talk about?
2:02
SPEAKER_00: Well, so it kind of splits.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: It's either dysfunction or dissatisfaction is sort of like the main themes that come in.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: And I would say there's usually a little bit of trepidation as they're walking in initially.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: You know, so the embarrassment, I guess, might be.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: Is it okay to say things aren't working in the bedroom?
2:26
SPEAKER_00: So it's usually edging in on erectile dysfunction is a common one,
2:32
SPEAKER_00: you know, so that's not working.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: Or just really low desire would be kind of the other common one.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: Like she doesn't want to.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: Our desire has kind of gone away and we feel sad about it or confused about it
2:48
SPEAKER_00: or worried about it.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've just launched a program about erectile dysfunction,
2:54
SPEAKER_01: actually,
2:55
SPEAKER_01: because what I've discovered through having two partners
2:59
SPEAKER_01: who both sadly now are dead,
3:01
SPEAKER_01: for whom erectile dysfunction was the first sign that something was wrong with them,
3:05
SPEAKER_01: was often men just don't talk about it.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: And they're really ashamed to talk about it.
3:12
SPEAKER_01: When they come and see you, and that's one of the issues, is it normally because...
3:17
SPEAKER_01: They've already gone to see a healthcare professional or are you first port of call for them?
3:23
SPEAKER_01: Like where are you in their journey?
3:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: It could be either way.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: They could be a referral from their urologist or it could be
3:33
SPEAKER_00: that they Googled sex help and I'm their first stop and I will refer them
3:37
SPEAKER_00: to their doctor.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes though,
3:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
3:40
SPEAKER_00: the healthcare provider on either side,
3:42
SPEAKER_00: it could be that the gynecologist referred the Yeah.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: Or there is no physical problem and they need psychological support.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: So it could be either and both.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: And that's difficult because when it's physical, it's almost easier, I suspect, right?
4:14
SPEAKER_01: Because it is what it is.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: It's like there's a problem with your, whether it's your diabetes, hormones.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: But when it's not, then it's a little bit more complex.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: And also, I suspect...
4:29
SPEAKER_01: A bit more sensitive on both sides to talk about.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: And with the aging process,
4:35
SPEAKER_00: especially,
4:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I feel like I'm in my 50s now and it's like each year it's like, wait, what?
4:40
SPEAKER_00: Now I lost that too?
4:42
SPEAKER_00: Or that's changing?
4:43
SPEAKER_00: And so when people come in and they're like, this is part of the aging process.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: Now I have a dry vulva?
4:50
SPEAKER_00: What?
4:50
SPEAKER_00: Or now my erections are only sort of half working and they may or may not be reliable.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, so this is just part of the conversation that we're having.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: And it's like you have to recalibrate your expectations.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of a bummer.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: But it's okay.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: You can still have pleasurable sex.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: When I was in my 50s and I went through the menopause and I'm a bit older
5:12
SPEAKER_01: than you are, I found this period of my life very challenging, to be honest.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: I found that the sudden drop in interest in sex and The accompanying changes
5:26
SPEAKER_01: that were going on in my body, they took a long time to deal with.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: I didn't seek professional help because I just thought, oh,
5:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
5:34
SPEAKER_01: I'd read enough about menopause to just think this is shit and it's just going
5:38
SPEAKER_01: to be shit.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: And I just have to put up with it, right, until it becomes less shit.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: That sounds so English.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: It's all shit.
5:45
SPEAKER_01: Well, it is hard,
5:46
SPEAKER_01: you know,
5:46
SPEAKER_01: because as you go through the menopause, right, you're changing all the time.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: Like, it takes a while to settle down.
5:53
SPEAKER_01: Like your eyesight.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: For somebody to go to a professional like yourself and go, okay, what do we do now?
5:59
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: What do you say to them?
6:01
SPEAKER_01: You just have to put up with it for a while.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm normalizing to some degree what's going on.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: And I'm encouraging them to engage in, like, let's work with what you do have.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: What does feel good?
6:15
SPEAKER_00: What is possible?
6:17
SPEAKER_00: Because part of it is that they're so ashamed that their parts aren't working or
6:22
SPEAKER_00: that their things look different.
6:23
SPEAKER_00: That they just want to hide.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: And so if we can actually get them to just pivot when something like,
6:29
SPEAKER_00: for example,
6:30
SPEAKER_00: if the erection doesn't arrive or if it doesn't stay,
6:34
SPEAKER_00: then let's just pivot to something else that's still enjoyable, right?
6:40
SPEAKER_00: If they can get their head around that and not get taken out and feel so ashamed.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: Then they can keep going.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes it will come back if they're not focused on it and freaked out
6:51
SPEAKER_00: about it because it's a reaction to the anxiety sometimes too.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: And so if me as a third person who is not involved in their sex life can say that,
7:00
SPEAKER_00: then they can hold on to that and they can remember that.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: They can still play and have fun.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: It feels a lot better versus they just feel so shameful and embarrassed
7:12
SPEAKER_00: that they sort of go to their silos and then nothing good happens.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: So, you know,
7:18
SPEAKER_00: it's just I'm trying to help at least them have something else that feels connecting
7:26
SPEAKER_00: for them as an option rather than let's just wait it out until we hit a baseline.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: In five or 10 years,
7:33
SPEAKER_00: because that might not happen or they might just like hang up their cleats for good,
7:38
SPEAKER_00: you know?
7:39
SPEAKER_01: And that does happen.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
7:40
SPEAKER_01: I was with somebody who is much younger than me when I started going through all
7:44
SPEAKER_01: of this.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: And he said to me, how long is this going to go on for?
7:48
SPEAKER_01: And I went about a decade.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: He was shot, a poor man.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: He was like a baby.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: And he was just, he was 33, I was 50.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: And he was just going, what?
7:58
SPEAKER_01: You know,
7:58
SPEAKER_01: I think at least when both partners are going through something individually,
8:03
SPEAKER_01: it's almost easier in a way because you can kind of make light of it.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: If one person needs, okay,
8:10
SPEAKER_01: I need a bit of lube,
8:11
SPEAKER_01: hon, because I'm just not getting there as quickly as I was hoping.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: Or let's just take a break.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: In the UK, we say, let's just take a tea break, you know?
8:20
SPEAKER_01: Have a little rest.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: Just have a little nap and then just get started again.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: Do you find that for a lot of these guys,
8:28
SPEAKER_01: they've relied so heavily on penetrative sex that when the erection goes,
8:33
SPEAKER_01: it's like they almost don't even know what else is on the menu?
8:36
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
8:37
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: And it's so interesting because there isn't really a parallel.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: Like men are very attached to their penis in a way that women are not attached
8:46
SPEAKER_00: to their breasts, for example, or, you know, their vulva.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: Like they can pivot.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: They have pleasure centers all over.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: But men are like the size and the functioning of their penis matters a lot to them.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: And penetrative sex has always been their gold standard.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: So when that stops being possible,
9:04
SPEAKER_00: either because they can't penetrate or because it hurts for the female partner,
9:11
SPEAKER_00: they get really frustrated and they get really in their head about it.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: It is a game changer.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: And so trying to get them back on board to try something else is a bit of a discussion.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: But I tell you,
9:23
SPEAKER_00: the men that are willing to have that conversation and try something different,
9:27
SPEAKER_00: their lives just go better.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: And what are some of the practical tips that you think are just useful for guys
9:34
SPEAKER_01: who might be in that situation experiencing unreliable erections?
9:38
SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that you can suggest for those people?
9:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not working as effectively.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm getting a little bit frustrated here.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: Is there like a word or how?
9:48
SPEAKER_00: It's really practicing non-attachment because it's like just because it's not erect
9:53
SPEAKER_00: in the same way it was when you were 25 doesn't mean that you can't have pleasure.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: The sensitivity is still there, right?
10:01
SPEAKER_00: You can still enjoy oral sex.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: You can still enjoy manual stimulation.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: It all still feels good.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, the receptivity is there.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: There's a practice called stuffing where you can still put it inside a woman
10:13
SPEAKER_00: and it still feels good.
10:14
SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't have the same impact of an erect penis being put inside.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's like they have to almost just reconfigure that it is working.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: It's just working differently.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: It's working.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: It's just differently.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: Most sex toy guides throw a hundred options at you
10:32
SPEAKER_01: and leave you feeling more confused than when you started.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: GITM playbook does the exact opposite.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: It uses something called external to internal logic.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: The site is organized into really clear, simple categories that actually make sense.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: This is your starting point.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: Go to g-i-t-m for m-m playbook.com.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: And because I don't have a penis,
11:22
SPEAKER_01: obviously,
11:24
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't aware until a partner told me after he'd come and
11:30
SPEAKER_01: after like we'd been lazing around for a while and he was totally soft and
11:35
SPEAKER_01: then Started getting into a bit of manual stimulation and he was like,
11:39
SPEAKER_01: wow, it's so sensitive.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, really?
11:42
SPEAKER_01: And he was like, yeah, yeah.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: Like when it's really soft, it becomes like super sensitive.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: And after he'd already ejaculated and I was like, oh, that's interesting.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: I always assumed that it becomes more sensitive as it becomes more erect.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: But as he said, the sensitivity is always there.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: It's just our visual is that the only thing we've seen as women,
12:05
SPEAKER_01: mainly through porn and stuff, right, is like erect penises.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: So we don't have a lot of visual references,
12:13
SPEAKER_01: actually,
12:14
SPEAKER_01: when it comes to just playing with parts that aren't necessarily fully erect.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: We just so, you know, we just don't have a lot of education around that.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Well, and think about it for you, like after orgasm, think about how sensitive you are, right?
12:30
SPEAKER_00: Where it's like sometimes you don't want to be touched almost because you're so sensitive.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but yeah, I mean,
12:35
SPEAKER_01: after orgasm,
12:36
SPEAKER_01: it's almost too sensitive, which brings me on to women and pain because...
12:42
SPEAKER_01: Again, I hear a lot of women say,
12:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm not interested in sex and I wonder how much of that is
12:48
SPEAKER_01: because it's just become too painful and they're not comfortable admitting that.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: Is that one of the circumstances that you've come across in your practice?
13:00
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: I had a woman this week say, okay,
13:04
SPEAKER_00: it feels like And that is the common refrain when you've crossed that line
13:11
SPEAKER_00: where you just don't have enough natural lubrication.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: And by the way, like we're not like a lubrication factory, right?
13:19
SPEAKER_00: If you have sex long enough, you're going to run out of lubrication.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: So lube your friend.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: You should just have a good quality lube standby anyway.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: But as we age, it's harder to get enough lubrication.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: And if you don't have sex that frequently,
13:32
SPEAKER_00: you might be having some,
13:34
SPEAKER_00: I hate this word, but you might be having some vaginal atrophy.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: So that skin gets thinner.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: And as it gets thinner than when you do have any sort of penetrative play,
13:44
SPEAKER_00: and that could be with hands or with toys or with penetration,
13:48
SPEAKER_00: you might be getting micro tears.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: And the micro tears are so painful because Oh my God, they're so painful.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: So then you're going to have a feedback loop of like,
13:57
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to do this again because it really hurts.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: So lube is going to be your friend.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: There's also little suppositories that you can use,
14:05
SPEAKER_00: vaginal suppositories that you can just put in there and then they slow drip out
14:10
SPEAKER_00: the lubrication.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: Those are wonderful.
14:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: Because they weren't.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: Unless they're like endocrinologists,
14:37
SPEAKER_00: like most of these primary care and a lot of
14:39
SPEAKER_00: the gynecologists even didn't get this information.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: And they're getting on board now because there's,
14:45
SPEAKER_00: you know, the menopause society is really starting to help.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: But they don't know.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: You know, and there was a lot of hesitation with estrogen and hormones in general.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: But vaginal estrogen is really helpful.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: By the way, estrogen on your face is really helpful too.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: I know.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: Well, I get something called Vagirox, which are little pellets with a long applicator.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: But I was thinking that I might try and see if I could sneak in some cream
15:12
SPEAKER_01: in my next prescription.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: I was told that when you put it on your face, it's amazing, right?
15:18
SPEAKER_00: I think the compound is different.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I know that there's estrogen for your face.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm not that kind of doctor, so I should not be talking about that.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm always fascinated.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: I always think of California as being quite a progressive state, right?
15:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm always surprised when people like yourself tell me that women are going to them
15:36
SPEAKER_01: with like little tears,
15:37
SPEAKER_01: all of the stuff that,
15:38
SPEAKER_01: by the way, vaginal estrogen just clears up in a heartbeat, right?
15:42
SPEAKER_01: Like two weeks, a month later, they'd be coming into your office going, I am so juicy.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: They're just not given any information.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: I harp on about this all the time because it is one of the things that I hear
15:56
SPEAKER_01: so often that From my friends, from people on the show.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: It's like, what are you talking about?
16:03
SPEAKER_00: I swear, it's generational.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Because I would say that women under 40, they are a generation that grew up with lube.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: But women over 50?
16:13
SPEAKER_00: No.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: Lube is still kind of weird to them.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: They feel kind of funny having that in their bedside table.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: Women in their 50s, 60s, at this point in time, they are not used to it.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: And it almost feels sometimes, I feel like with their male partners especially...
16:29
SPEAKER_00: Why do you need that?
16:30
SPEAKER_00: Are you not turned on enough?
16:32
SPEAKER_00: So it's cultural.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit of a cultural thing.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: You shouldn't need that.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, completely.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: I think it is age-related.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I always keep lube next to my bed,
16:43
SPEAKER_01: but I know that sometimes I have a little twinge of feeling slightly ashamed
16:48
SPEAKER_01: and inadequate if I feel like I'm not lubed up enough.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's not about that.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: It's just literally the body can only produce so much lubrication and then it needs
16:57
SPEAKER_00: a little assist.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you talked briefly about when couples have very different levels of desire.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: And what do you think is the most common mistake people make when they're trying to solve it?
17:09
SPEAKER_00: I think it's the pressure.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: It's just,
17:11
SPEAKER_00: come on,
17:11
SPEAKER_00: like the guilting of it isn't going to solve it because that doesn't lead you
17:16
SPEAKER_00: to true desire.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: That leads you to obligation.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: You know,
17:20
SPEAKER_00: when I'm working with couples,
17:21
SPEAKER_00: it's more like, okay, how do we get you into the desirous space?
17:25
SPEAKER_00: Because there's usually a high desire partner and a low desire partner.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: But that low desire partner,
17:30
SPEAKER_00: let's call her she because oftentimes it is her in the heterosexual construct.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes if I see her alone and I have a very frank conversation with her,
17:40
SPEAKER_00: it's not that she doesn't like sex.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: She's sometimes masturbating.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: She, in general, feels neutral to maybe slightly positive about sex.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: She maybe doesn't like the sex that she's having because she doesn't feel that included.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: Her pleasure doesn't feel that important or prioritized.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: And so she's kind of ambivalent about it.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: And so if we can get her to a place where she enjoys the sex that she's having...
18:04
SPEAKER_00: But if she's not having
18:07
SPEAKER_01: the sex that she enjoys,
18:08
SPEAKER_01: and I suspect that's why often women just abdicate from sex,
18:13
SPEAKER_01: it's like they just haven't really experienced any sexual pleasure.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: And for men, the gold standard is penetrative sex.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's not their gold standard
18:23
SPEAKER_01: because maybe they just really like oral sex or they just like sex.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: Or something like that.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: Maybe they just want different sex.
18:31
SPEAKER_01: How do you bring up with a partner that actually the sex
18:36
SPEAKER_01: that you've been having all this time,
18:38
SPEAKER_01: the reason why you're not feeling it is because actually you finally feel liberated
18:45
SPEAKER_01: to abdicate from it.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's often what happens with older women, right?
18:49
SPEAKER_01: Is that they just go, you know what?
18:52
SPEAKER_01: I've just not been enjoying this.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: And so...
18:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm now past procreation.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm in a good place now to just say, yeah, I'm tired.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: Every single night, I'm tired.
19:03
SPEAKER_01: Because getting a man to hear that they haven't been pleasuring their partner is very difficult.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: Ideally,
19:15
SPEAKER_00: you don't want it to be this big rush towards like
19:17
SPEAKER_00: the last 30 years have been terrible.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't feel good, right?
19:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: And also you don't want it to be this transactional feeling of,
19:25
SPEAKER_00: because oftentimes it's not about the mechanics of the sex exactly.
19:31
SPEAKER_00: What I find is that she wants more relational exchange.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: That feels good to her.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: It's not about like kiss me in this way.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: It's about have some conversation with me,
19:42
SPEAKER_00: relate to me, like make me feel like we're having a relationship first.
19:47
SPEAKER_00: And then I feel more inclined or interested in amorous things with you.
19:52
SPEAKER_00: But you don't want it to become this sort of quid pro quo where it's like, OK,
19:56
SPEAKER_00: you be nice to me and I'll have sex with you because then it's like,
20:00
SPEAKER_00: but it sometimes can feel that way.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: Because then it's like,
20:03
SPEAKER_00: OK, he'll behave today so that he gets to have sex with you at the end of the night.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: You got to be careful how it goes.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: Ideally, both of them feed into the cycle.
20:11
SPEAKER_00: And I've seen all of this reversed, too.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: I've seen women who have a much higher sex drive.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: And men who are looking for more relational connection.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: It absolutely can be the inverse of what I'm describing.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: But you have to understand what each partner kind of wants.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: And that's not fixed.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: But trying to get them to engage in that way and participate so that there's some awareness.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: I do find that sometimes the higher desire partner,
20:38
SPEAKER_00: it's easier for them to shift into that physicality and just,
20:43
SPEAKER_00: right, they can just access it so much easier.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: Whereas the low desire partner typically wants more relational cues.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: They want to feel like they matter.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: They want to feel like their brain has been stimulated.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: I think though,
20:57
SPEAKER_01: after decades,
20:58
SPEAKER_01: it is difficult for couples to bring excitement back into their lives.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: Just generally, I think it's one of the hardest things I've discussed it endlessly with people.
21:07
SPEAKER_01: It's like,
21:08
SPEAKER_01: what are the practical steps that people can take to Bring intimacy and sex back
21:14
SPEAKER_01: into relationships where perhaps they've gotten bored,
21:17
SPEAKER_01: it's become monotonous,
21:19
SPEAKER_01: somebody's stepped back and said they don't want it,
21:22
SPEAKER_01: whatever the reason happens to be.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: What do you think are some of the practical ways that people can start to re-engage
21:28
SPEAKER_01: with intimacy if they've been in a long-term relationship?
21:34
SPEAKER_00: As you've been with somebody longer and longer, you feel like you know them.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: You feel like you know everything.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: You've been finished their sentences because you have all this shared history.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: So I would challenge that and say, you are separate people.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: You don't actually read their mind.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: They have an inner world that you don't know about.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: If you get really curious about that,
21:52
SPEAKER_00: and if you show some interest, and if you attune, people like that.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: If you go, tell me about you.
21:59
SPEAKER_00: Tell me about your day.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: What's going on with you?
22:01
SPEAKER_00: And everybody's got their own style and what they like.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: But these couples,
22:05
SPEAKER_00: there was a great book that Peggy Kleinplatz wrote,
22:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, a couple years ago called Magnificent Sex.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: And they interviewed a bunch of older couples that had been together for,
22:15
SPEAKER_00: I think, 20, 40 years, you know, long, long term about what it was.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: And it was so much about their relational quality.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: And I really, really agree with that because these couples I see, it just backs that up.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: It's like, can you have banter?
22:29
SPEAKER_00: Can you show interest?
22:31
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: The couples that have humor,
22:32
SPEAKER_00: the couples that have shared,
22:33
SPEAKER_00: not just shared interest, because you don't have to have that always.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: But can you be interested in each other?
22:41
SPEAKER_00: That's where the sparks start to light up a little bit.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: And that's where when you're in the playful zone,
22:47
SPEAKER_00: that's when you start to go, I kind of do want you again.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: That's where desire lives in that quadrant of play, of explore, of creative.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: Let's be a little playful together.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: And what I'm hearing is.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: That is the word that is often missing in so many
23:05
SPEAKER_01: of these relationships is curiosity,
23:08
SPEAKER_01: is still remaining curious both about the world and about each other.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: And I think often, even when I go on dates...
23:17
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes,
23:17
SPEAKER_01: and you know,
23:18
SPEAKER_01: lots of women,
23:19
SPEAKER_01: not just of my age,
23:20
SPEAKER_01: but this is a common complaint that I hear women make all the time when they go
23:25
SPEAKER_01: on dates.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: It's like, he just spoke about himself the whole time.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: He just wanted to tell me about himself the whole time.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't take much to ask, how was your day?
23:34
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: Like, like these are some really simple questions that can open the doors to conversation.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: How was your day?
23:42
SPEAKER_01: You know, what'd you do today
23:44
SPEAKER_00: that made you happy?
23:47
SPEAKER_00: Let me let me know you a little more.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: Like, tell me about you.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: People like to feel like you're interested.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: As soon as a man asks me, how was your day?
23:59
SPEAKER_01: The most simple question in the entire universe.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: But question I rarely get asked, rarely get asked.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: And I'm always like, are you not curious?
24:09
SPEAKER_01: Do you not want to have some idea of who I am?
24:14
SPEAKER_01: I mean, look,
24:15
SPEAKER_01: I can flatter a man's ego as much as any woman,
24:17
SPEAKER_01: but after a while,
24:19
SPEAKER_01: it does become rather predictable and frankly,
24:22
SPEAKER_01: quite boring for me to sit there and just,
24:25
SPEAKER_01: you know, constantly be feeding some man's ego.
24:28
SPEAKER_01: And I think some of those practical tips are just like,
24:31
SPEAKER_01: be curious, like ask questions because women want to feel like they're being heard.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: And I think often that,
24:42
SPEAKER_01: as you said,
24:44
SPEAKER_01: for low libido partners who are looking for more relational aspects to come out
24:50
SPEAKER_01: with their partner,
24:51
SPEAKER_01: just hearing some simple questions every day,
24:55
SPEAKER_01: like, guys, just make it a thing that you do every day.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: How was your day?
25:00
SPEAKER_00: What happened today?
25:01
SPEAKER_00: And actually listen to the answer.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: Don't just ask the question.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: Listen to the answer.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: I know it's really small things, though.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: But I often think that it is these little practical things that men are looking for.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: Like, just tell me what to do.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: Just tell me what to do to be able to have sex with my wife or my partner again.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: Repeat the shortcut.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:22
SPEAKER_00: Show interest.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: Genuine interest.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: I think show interest should just be the headline
25:28
SPEAKER_01: of any relationship counselors like above their door.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: Show interest in their pleasure.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: Show interest in their lives.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: Just be curious.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: Show interest.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: I think it's not that hard.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I've made a breakthrough here in terms of what we can share with men now.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: I think we've got the key to the kingdom.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you
25:49
SPEAKER_00: got it.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: We solved it.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: Just guys, just show interest.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: Really.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: You want me to have sex with you?
25:56
SPEAKER_01: Just show interest.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: Show interest.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: And more importantly, as Jen said, listen.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: If people in general are interested, I do have Pleasure Project.us.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: If you go there,
26:09
SPEAKER_00: I've got a whole course that is
26:11
SPEAKER_00: about understanding what your sexual history has been and visioning
26:16
SPEAKER_00: where you would like your sexual history to go.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: I've got a whole course.
26:19
SPEAKER_00: This is like a mashup of the sex therapy that I've been doing.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: This is a course I taught and I built it into an asynchronous version so that people could take.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: And it just walks you through so much inquiry.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: A lot of information in terms of understanding and all the languaging is
26:37
SPEAKER_00: towards women, but I've used it with couples too.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: So if you're interested, it's a deep dive.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: We'll put a link to that.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: That sounds amazing.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: Jen, it's wonderful talking to you.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: Enjoy your day in Santa
26:50
SPEAKER_00: Barbara and take care.
26:51
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: Just a quick nudge,
26:55
SPEAKER_01: if you haven't visited sexadviceforseniors.com yet, what are you waiting for?
27:00
SPEAKER_01: It's the place where curiosity, experience, and a little mischief all meet.