Latest / California Frontier / 067: Remaking Southern California with author James Tejani

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067: Remaking Southern California with author James Tejani · California Frontier

• 0:00
  James Tejani: California is also at the same time experiencing the Gold Rush and the, just the, the influx, the tremendous demographic influx of non Hispanic people coming into California and very rapidly changing the the balance of power in the state.
• 0:17
  James Tejani: And, Edward Ord is a career Army officer.
• 0:22
  James Tejani: And in the 1852 to 1855 period, he is on loan to the United States Coast Survey, a very important scientific federal bureau that is, that's mapping, the coast of California.
• 0:44
  Damian Bacich: James Tejani, I want to thank you for being on the podcast, and I'm looking forward to talking to you about your very interesting new book, A Machine to move ocean and earth, the making of the port of Los Angeles and America.
• 1:02
  Damian Bacich: So welcome.
• 1:04
  James Tejani: Thank you for having me.
• 1:06
  Damian Bacich: Yeah.
• 1:06
  Damian Bacich: I, I wonder if, um, before we dive into the book, which was like I said, I really got a lot out of, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about yourself, your background and, and your, your interests.
• 1:19
  James Tejani: Sure.
• 1:20
  James Tejani: Uh, well, I think the, the most, uh, relevant thing for the book is that I, uh, grew up in the, the port area in the, the city of Long Beach.
• 1:31
  James Tejani: Uh, and so from a very early age, uh, I noticed this, uh, area of the coastline with, uh, ships and bridges and railroads, trucks and cranes, uh, and containers.
• 1:46
  James Tejani: And that caught my eye from, I don't know, at least the age of five, uh, is my earliest memories.
• 1:54
  James Tejani: And so, um, this place, um, I grew up with this, this place almost like a member of the family, uh, whose story that I, I, I wanted to know.
• 2:08
  James Tejani: So it was, it was something familiar to me, but that did not seem to have a larger story, uh, to it.
• 2:14
  James Tejani: And so I was always curious.
• 2:17
  James Tejani: in where the port districts came from, and that curiosity increased as I grew older and started to spend more time in the ocean, and was just watching the ship traffic come in and out, and in the early 2000s, as global free trade expanded, especially with East Asia and China coming into the WTO, There was literally this traffic jam of container ships.
• 2:45
  James Tejani: I think a lot of your listeners have those images from the COVID pandemic, but it goes back a couple decades further.
• 2:52
  James Tejani: Uh, and so the visual.
• 2:54
  James Tejani: Both of being a child, um, and the visual of being a young adult.
• 3:00
  James Tejani: Um, the port just made such a strong impression on me and I just had to know its story.
• 3:07
  James Tejani: Uh, and so when I, when I went to do my graduate studies, I was back east and this was in the early two thousands.
• 3:14
  James Tejani: And, um, my mentors, um, they had begun talking about kind of the U.
• 3:21
  James Tejani: S.
• 3:21
  James Tejani: in this new global era of, um, of, uh, post Cold War free trade.
• 3:28
  James Tejani: Um, there was a lot of discussion about this, um, but I noticed that that hadn't really been integrated into the, the narrative of United States history quite yet, uh, especially when it came in the Pacific.
• 3:40
  James Tejani: There was a little bit more attention to the Atlantic world.
• 3:43
  James Tejani: Um, but not, not the Pacific, and so I really wanted to know what were the origins of this, um, Pacific integration that we were living through, uh, and I eventually came to focus back on that familiar site that I knew growing up, uh, the Port of Los Angeles, uh, the Port of Long Beach as well, but the San Pedro Bay generally.
• 4:03
  James Tejani: Yeah,
• 4:08
  Damian Bacich: and it's, it's interesting, that the port itself actually makes its appearance pretty late in the book.
• 4:15
  Damian Bacich: Um, could you give us an idea of how important the port is to people living in the U.
• 4:23
  Damian Bacich: S.
• 4:24
  Damian Bacich: in terms of maybe the volume of traffic or, or what its impact is on our normal daily life?
• 4:33
  James Tejani: I think, um, there's a couple of different ways to describe that and measure it, but, uh, San Pedro Bay, so the port of Long Beach and the port of Los Angeles together, is the busiest container port in the world outside of East Asia.
• 4:49
  James Tejani: And so there's a number of East Asian ports that have now been built that that are export ports.
• 4:53
  James Tejani: Um, um, shipping, uh, harbors and they, they, they dominate in terms of volume because they're sending out to the entire world.
• 5:02
  James Tejani: Uh, but on the receiving end for the United States, San Pedro Bay is the big one.
• 5:08
  James Tejani: And so it has about a third of the volume, one, one, one in three, um, If you want to think about it that way, uh, but in terms of shipping volume, one third of the imports coming into the United States are moving through this area.
• 5:24
  James Tejani: Uh, the, by the port of Los Angeles is I should, uh, specify that the Port of Los Angeles is the single biggest container port in the United States.
• 5:33
  James Tejani: Um, and I think that number is about one sixth of the traffic.
• 5:38
  James Tejani: So Port of Long Beach and Port of Los Angeles are roughly equal, with the Port of Los Angeles having the edge in shipping volume.
• 5:46
  James Tejani: Uh, and by the Port of Los Angeles own numbers, uh, that's, uh, 1.
• 5:52
  James Tejani: 3 billion in traffic as of 2022, and I would imagine that's higher now that we've, uh, we've recovered from the pandemic economy.
• 6:03
  James Tejani: And another one of their statistics is that they have a connection to one in 60 U.
• 6:08
  James Tejani: S.
• 6:08
  James Tejani: jobs in the, in the U.
• 6:10
  James Tejani: S.
• 6:10
  James Tejani: economy.
• 6:11
  James Tejani: And so that also tells us that for your listeners who maybe even aren't in the West or are on the Pacific coast, uh, the Port of Los Angeles has this deep and long economic reach.
• 6:23
  James Tejani: And I think you can see that even when you expand the lens and think about.
• 6:28
  James Tejani: How the Port of Los Angeles is really the first.
• 6:32
  James Tejani: artificially created, uh, deepwater harbor for the United States.
• 6:38
  James Tejani: Uh, and the, the technology that goes into developing that is going to be replicated elsewhere around the country.
• 6:46
  James Tejani: And so if you take the Port of Los Angeles as a historical archetype, uh, The shipping that is reaching, say, people on the East Coast still has that connection to the techniques that were developed in the Port of Los Angeles.
• 7:01
  James Tejani: Just the hubris that was attached to this place where we could build a harbor where nature had not endowed the coast with one.
• 7:11
  James Tejani: And that's true of the Panama Canal as well.
• 7:14
  James Tejani: It's going to be developed in the same time period with a lot of the same technologies.
• 7:19
  James Tejani: Uh, and so.
• 7:20
  James Tejani: Even the official statistics of the Port of Los Angeles, I think, understate just how much impact this site has on the America that we know today.
• 7:33
  James Tejani: And on top of that, I think the only thing I would add is that, When you think about the supply chain worldwide, that the Port of Los Angeles is such an integral and archetypal part of, you're talking about billions of human beings that are being touched by a system that the Port of Los Angeles is either a part of, or was a model or an exemplar for other places in the world that would duplicate, uh, its, uh, its patterns.
• 8:04
  Damian Bacich: Well, even though the book is about this gargantuan port, right?
• 8:12
  Damian Bacich: It's really made up of stories of individuals.
• 8:15
  Damian Bacich: And that's why I really enjoyed it so much is the, um, is the level of detail that goes into about the, uh, the human beings that sort of were part of this whole drama of bringing it about.
• 8:30
  Damian Bacich: You know, um, Maybe I'll ask you if we can start talking about some of those, some of those supporting cast in your story.
• 8:39
  Damian Bacich: In particular, um, I was thinking of two men who, who really take up a lot of space in the really the first, um, half of the book, at least, uh, Manuel Dominguez.
• 8:52
  Damian Bacich: and Edward Ord.
• 8:54
  Damian Bacich: Both, um, if, you know, people in California have heard, definitely heard those last names before.
• 9:01
  Damian Bacich: Um, in fact, I used to teach at Cal State Dominguez Hills, right, not far from the Dominguez Adobe, and I was in the ROTC when I was in college, and we went to Fort Ord, right?
• 9:13
  James Tejani: go, yeah.
• 9:14
  Damian Bacich: those names, um, are really important for California history.
• 9:18
  Damian Bacich: I'm wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about them and that.
• 9:22
  Damian Bacich: That sort of strange relationship that they had.
• 9:26
  James Tejani: Yeah, so, uh, just to back up a little bit, Um, I, as a, as a PhD student, I did not imagine that I would write a book that, So heavily focused on people and characters, uh, and, uh, essentially kind of biographies.
• 9:44
  James Tejani: Um, uh, the book in many ways is a chain of, of biographical segments that, that, that weave together.
• 9:51
  James Tejani: Um, so that was a great surprise to me.
• 9:54
  James Tejani: And I would say among the, um, surprises, the surprising characters, uh, the relationship between, uh, Manuel Dominguez and Edward Ord, the friendship, uh, the sort of brief friendship in time between these two men was perhaps the greatest surprise.
• 10:12
  James Tejani: Um, so the, the, the connection between these, these two men I think is surprising on one hand because this is, uh, 1850s California, It is, um, the United States having recently, uh, conquered and taken northern Mexican territory from the Mexican Republic, a sister republic.
• 10:36
  James Tejani: Uh, and, um, California is also at the same time experiencing the gold rush and the, just the, the influx, the tremendous demographic influx of non Hispanic immigrants.
• 10:48
  James Tejani: people coming into California and very rapidly changing, uh, the, the balance of power in the state.
• 10:56
  James Tejani: And, uh, Edward Ord is a career army officer.
• 11:01
  James Tejani: And in the 1852 to 1855 period, he is on loan to the United States Coast Survey, uh, and a very important scientific group.
• 11:10
  James Tejani: Uh, Federal Bureau that is, uh, that's mapping, uh, the coast of California.
• 11:17
  James Tejani: And so in, in, in all kinds of ways, Ord represents, uh, American conquest, uh, the American invasion, if you will.
• 11:26
  James Tejani: Uh, he had been sent to California during the U.
• 11:30
  James Tejani: S.
• 11:30
  James Tejani: Mexico War, but, uh, he arrives in, uh, early 1847, so too late to really take part in any battles, but he is an American conqueror in many ways.
• 11:41
  James Tejani: And yet he forms this friendship, um, and by all evidence and indication, it, it is a true friendship.
• 11:49
  James Tejani: There is, um, certainly, uh, some, some, uh, familiarity, uh, affection, intimacy, uh, in terms of, um, spending time with, uh, other people.
• 12:02
  James Tejani: with family members with Manuel Dominguez.
• 12:05
  James Tejani: And so ORD is going to be stationed in the area around San Pedro Bay.
• 12:10
  James Tejani: And Manuel Dominguez is one of the big landowners, uh, along, uh, adjacent to San Pedro Bay.
• 12:17
  James Tejani: So he, he is the heir to a Mexican, uh, an heir to a Spanish era land grant.
• 12:24
  James Tejani: Uh, and, um, he is born late in the Spanish period, uh, and then grows, comes of age in the Mexican.
• 12:31
  James Tejani: era of California.
• 12:33
  James Tejani: And so he's a landowner and by the standard narrative, the Mexican landowners are the ones who are, who are going to lose out to the arriving Americans.
• 12:45
  James Tejani: And in many parts of the state, that certainly is, is true that, that narrative, but Dominguez, uh, is nonetheless able to form this friendship.
• 12:54
  James Tejani: with this U.
• 12:55
  James Tejani: S.
• 12:55
  James Tejani: Army and Coast Surveyor officer, Edward Ord, and it's a friendship that I found fascinating because for both men There is both the social aspect of it, of forming friends in a new place, forming bonds.
• 13:14
  James Tejani: But there's also the strategic aspect of it, where these two men, they need each other to understand the world that they are entering, this borderlands hybrid world of Americans and Spanish speakers.
• 13:30
  James Tejani: So for Ord Ord, um, wants to, he wants to grasp the world of, of Mexican property.
• 13:38
  James Tejani: And he himself is a sort of middle class American, uh, of, of sort of tenuous economic position.
• 13:46
  James Tejani: His family has this very interesting history.
• 13:49
  James Tejani: of um, of trying to kind of climb socio economic, the socio economic ladder through western, being part of western conquest.
• 13:58
  James Tejani: And so he is looking to enter the California real estate market and so Dominguez is very useful to him in that way and sort of pointing him To social contacts, property, uh, property leads and opportunities.
• 14:13
  James Tejani: And at the same time for Dominguez, Ord represents very much the same, where Ord is a representative of this new legal system, this new political system.
• 14:25
  James Tejani: Americans taking power around Los Angeles.
• 14:27
  James Tejani: Ford is connected into the Democratic Party, which Dominguez also joins, and he's very, um, intent on working with the local Democratic Party machine in Los Angeles.
• 14:40
  James Tejani: And so both men become very useful to each other, and they forge their friendship, their social bonds, I think, around that.
• 14:48
  James Tejani: around similar political and economic interests, and yet they're part of this bigger world of American conquest that eventually is going to tear that friendship apart, as Ord's interests and Dominga's interests, but certainly Ord's, begin to diverge.
• 15:05
  Damian Bacich: Yeah, it's one of the things that, well, two things struck me in reading it.
• 15:10
  Damian Bacich: One is this fact that exactly Manuel Dominguez was able to hold on to his property, or a lot of it, when when probably most of the Californians who received grants wound up, even if they're Patents were approved by the federal government.
• 15:29
  Damian Bacich: Ultimately, by the time all the legal challenges were done, they were left with nothing.
• 15:34
  Damian Bacich: But Manuel Dominguez managed to hold on through a lot of this, um, working that relationship with, with ORD.
• 15:44
  Damian Bacich: But the other thing that struck me as well is how early the real estate speculation was going on, right, after, after U.
• 15:55
  Damian Bacich: S.
• 15:55
  Damian Bacich: annexation and, and really, you know, in a lot of ways it seems that, um, that land, and maybe this is just a, this is just a cliche a lot of people have thought of it, but land was the real gold in California, right?
• 16:10
  Damian Bacich: So I thought you brought that out very well, very interesting.
• 16:14
  James Tejani: Yeah, I think that is an important and perhaps understated part of the story that, um, This, this is in the midst of the gold rush.
• 16:28
  James Tejani: And yet California society becomes a prospecting society writ large.
• 16:32
  James Tejani: So gold is hard work.
• 16:35
  James Tejani: And some people find gold, a lot of people don't.
• 16:38
  James Tejani: And the people who don't, they gravitate to prospecting in other other resources and land in many ways is the easiest and Ord and Dominguez both figured that out And so that's where they're going to to stake much of their efforts but that has an interesting side to it, which is that land is going to be the source of great conflict in the society and that conflict runs everything from syndicates of speculators and lawsuits.
• 17:10
  James Tejani: It's going to run into kind of the ethnic conflict of of Americans and and Spanish landowners and the great problem of squatting, uh, in, uh, parts of the state, particularly the Sacramento and San Francisco areas.
• 17:30
  James Tejani: And it's going to also run into the tremendous violence that Native Americans are going to suffer, particularly in the foothills, leading to these horrible massacres and human trafficking.
• 17:40
  James Tejani: But land also becomes an area where, under certain contexts, people can forge partnerships and intercultural, um, Partnerships, particularly.
• 17:53
  James Tejani: And I think, I think that is however exceptional that might be within the larger narrative of the time, those exceptional stories have great value.
• 18:06
  James Tejani: And so I think Dominguez and Ord, particularly Dominguez, his exceptionality in that story, I found very compelling, both for him as a character, as a person, because it tells us, I think, how astute.
• 18:21
  James Tejani: some of these Mexican landholders could be.
• 18:23
  James Tejani: And so even the ones who lose out, um, they certainly didn't lack for business acumen.
• 18:31
  James Tejani: I think that, that got overstated as part of the rationale for why they were losing out.
• 18:37
  James Tejani: But Dominguez, as you said, is extremely navigates this so well for his family and they, they ultimately, economically, they do quite, they do well.
• 18:49
  James Tejani: They still are doing well.
• 18:51
  James Tejani: managing commercial properties in Southern California.
• 18:56
  Damian Bacich: Really?
• 18:57
  James Tejani: yeah, so the, the Carson families and the Watson families, that, that, um, uh, and the DeLamo families, they, they do well.
• 19:05
  James Tejani: So the, the family name changes because, um, he has no surviving son.
• 19:09
  James Tejani: So it's all going to be daughters who marry, uh, and, and so the family name changes.
• 19:15
  James Tejani: Um, so, you know, um, Dominguez, I think, um, his story really needed to be told, uh, to complicate our understanding of, of, of how this Mexican property class, how they do in the time period.
• 19:32
  James Tejani: Um, and, um, the way this connects back to the port story is that the Ord Dominguez friendship, that relationship is going to ultimately provide the, uh, the core property around which the Port of Los Angeles will develop.
• 19:48
  James Tejani: Really the indispensable property, uh, even though Doming Ord obtains that from Dominguez, not through voluntary means, through a kind of, um, uh, manipulation of, of the federal system, uh, the federal land system.
• 20:04
  James Tejani: So Ord shows his cards that he kind of understands this, uh, that insider knowledge of him understanding it much better is going to.
• 20:12
  James Tejani: to lead to that, uh, that parcel.
• 20:15
  James Tejani: But nonetheless, to understand the Port of Los Angeles, where it comes from, and its origins, that Ord Dominguez relationship, and Dominguez's exceptional position, I think, is essential.
• 20:28
  Damian Bacich: I think one of the things that also comes out in this story, especially regarding somebody like Ord, is the connection between, or this revolving door between, say, the army and politics, and this idea of patronage, having strong or powerful senators, for example.
• 20:53
  Damian Bacich: Uh, backing you.
• 20:55
  Damian Bacich: So you had somebody like, uh, uh, John Fremont with, with, uh, with Benton or, uh, Jefferson Davis plays a big role in this as Secretary of Defense in this, um, story.
• 21:10
  Damian Bacich: And William Gwynn, exactly.
• 21:11
  Damian Bacich: That's another person I'd like you to, uh, to speak about because he was, he was key in the whole, um, land, um, the land commission in California in, in, um, you know, adjudicating these Mexican era land grants,
• 21:28
  James Tejani: Yeah.
• 21:28
  James Tejani: So Senator William Gwynn, uh, is, uh, he is not the first appointed.
• 21:34
  James Tejani: Uh, Vermont, as you mentioned, is going to be the first, uh, senator appointed by the new California legislature based on his, uh, his, um, popular reputation as a Western explorer.
• 21:47
  James Tejani: Um, but, um, and, um, They are both Democrats, Vermont and then Gwynn, who's going to be appointed alongside Vermont.
• 21:57
  James Tejani: And, uh, they're going to be the, uh, the ones who take California statehood petition and deliver it to Washington, D.
• 22:04
  James Tejani: C.
• 22:04
  James Tejani: in 1850.
• 22:06
  James Tejani: Uh, but Gwynn very quickly emerges as the, uh, the, the, um, the winner in that he pushes for, he and his allies are able to push Vermont.
• 22:16
  James Tejani: out of the Senate very quickly.
• 22:18
  James Tejani: Um, and in doing so from, uh, Gwynn is going to take hold of the the patronage system in California.
• 22:27
  James Tejani: Uh, and so in the, in the early, or in before the early 20th century, uh, and particularly before the late 19th century, before you have civil service reform, There are a a long list of politically appointed jobs at the state level and at the federal level and, uh, the dominant politicians.
• 22:50
  James Tejani: And particularly the, uh, the federal senators, they took, they were able to control these, the list of who got jobs.
• 23:01
  James Tejani: And these were very sought after jobs because this is a time in American history where there's not a lot of salaried work, uh, and there's not a lot of work that isn't physical or physically demanding in some sort of way.
• 23:15
  James Tejani: So a patronage job was a sort of comfortable white collar job that people really looked for, uh, and they wanted to be on these patronage lists.
• 23:26
  James Tejani: And so when William Gwynn and his allies are able to push Vermont out and take control of both state and federal patronage in the, in the state, they, they develop immense political power because this is how you curry, uh, Um, you c you curry a a set of political clients and, and you, you develop a system of political favors.
• 23:48
  James Tejani: And so in our, in our day and age, we would view it very much as a kind of quid pro quo, corrupt system.
• 23:55
  James Tejani: But it was, it was part and parcel of politics party, especially party politics in the 19th, 19th century and the Democratic party, um, because of.
• 24:07
  James Tejani: changes happening in the two party system in the 1850s is able to really lock this down and dominate California.
• 24:15
  James Tejani: And Gwyn, he becomes the, you know, the, the chieftain of this huge political, uh, patronage system.
• 24:24
  James Tejani: And, um, so he develops, really outsized power because of that.
• 24:31
  James Tejani: And then on top of that, you you have to remember that in Washington, D.
• 24:36
  James Tejani: C., California is such a distant kind of unfamiliar place that they need someone to be sort of the representative spokesman for the state and its interests.
• 24:49
  James Tejani: And so Gwen becomes that as well.
• 24:51
  James Tejani: And so for A couple years early to mid 1850s, he is just such an influential figure on any matter having to do with the Pacific Coast or with California, the source of a tremendous gold for the United States Treasury, that he is able to shape important legislation, things like the California Land Act, that are going to affect the fate of California.
• 25:16
  James Tejani: Mexican era properties, things like coastal exploration on the Pacific coast.
• 25:22
  James Tejani: And Gwynn, that's how he becomes an important part of the story.
• 25:27
  James Tejani: And Ord and Dominguez are both going to be parts of Gwynn's patronage system in California.
• 25:36
  James Tejani: And so, did I, did I, did I get to the heart of the question there that you were, you were looking for?
• 25:42
  James Tejani: Was there a, um, a part of the question I didn't get to?
• 25:46
  Damian Bacich: No, I, I think you did.
• 25:47
  Damian Bacich: And it leads into the Coastal survey and all of the work that was done in order to understand, you know, where a port might be located and, and how to use the Pacific and the waterways.
• 26:03
  Damian Bacich: And once again, one of the things that you brought out really well, or in a very compelling way in the book is how It's something that I think it's been in the news for, for the last few years is, is this, um, interface between science and the political world and how we often have this idea that, that, um, one really doesn't touch the other, but it definitely seems that in, um, at this time period, the 1850s and beyond that science, um, In the form of the Coast Survey or the form of these explorations and cartographic expeditions was something that definitely became a political football, if you will.
• 26:52
  James Tejani: Yeah, um, the co survey, I think, is, um, a very, um, early example of, uh, something that Americans who've lived through the last couple of years and particularly the pandemic, uh, even further, I think, um, the last decades in American politics have really become familiar with, which is, um, you know, this idea that science and a scientific outlook can, uh, guide and better And so the United States Coast Survey is, um, certainly in the 1850s and into the 1860s.
• 27:39
  James Tejani: This is going to be one of the, uh, the, uh, the dominant scientific, federal scientific agencies, uh, and it's the predecessor to to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration that we have today in the National Weather Service, uh, but back in the mid 19th century, uh, the the Coast Survey is really focused on coastal science and improving ship Transportation and Commerce, and they are a heavily scientific agency and they have this faith that Science and commerce can provide order to a fragmented and very chaotic world in the 19th century, and they are led by the preeminent American scientist at the time, Alexander Dallas Bache, who is a great grandson of Benjamin Franklin, and he is a top graduate of West Point.
• 28:40
  James Tejani: He's got immense political and military, uh, standing and respect from, Um, Um, you know, really throughout the American political and military apparatus and establishment.
• 28:55
  James Tejani: So he's, he's tremendously influential as an, as an individual, uh, but the Coast Survey is involved in this very difficult process of, of geodetic mapping, a kind of 3D mapping of the United States, uh, and its coastlines is to kind of put it together to kind of visualize it accurately.
• 29:16
  James Tejani: And that was seen as very important to the United States existence as a nation, its territorial claims, its, its status as a modern nation in relationship to places like Britain and France and some of the German, uh, the German states.
• 29:33
  James Tejani: And so the Coase survey is always straddling the world of science and politics.
• 29:41
  James Tejani: But I think what defined it was this very noble and ultimately naive idea that science would lead politics.
• 29:51
  James Tejani: Scientific findings would, uh, you know, sort of guide politicians and where, where they would go and where the national interest would go.
• 30:01
  James Tejani: And that certainly has roots in kind of the Jeffersonian Republican ideal.
• 30:05
  James Tejani: Um, but what the Coast Survey is going to find is it gets involved in Coastal mapping on the Pacific Coast is that it is going to start to encounter the, uh, the more self-interested aspects of politics, the, the party competition in politics.
• 30:23
  James Tejani: Uh, and so that's gonna happen on the local level with people like William Gwyn, uh, and Edward or, and the kind of real estate prospecting motivations in California.
• 30:33
  James Tejani: Uh, but it's also going to interact with the sort of grand.
• 30:39
  James Tejani: The, uh, the grand game of politics in Washington, D.
• 30:43
  James Tejani: C.
• 30:45
  James Tejani: where, uh, sectional interests, uh, and you brought up Jefferson Davis, uh, earlier.
• 30:51
  James Tejani: Jefferson Davis is the Secretary of War, uh, through the middle 1850s, uh, the sectional interests and people like Davis, who also straddle this world of science and politics.
• 31:02
  James Tejani: Um, but unlike the leaders of the Coast Survey.
• 31:06
  James Tejani: Someone like Davis is much more interested in using science to achieve his political goals, and his sectional goals, and the expansion of the South, um, and slaveholding into the West, and, and the, the ability of the, the, slave, the slaveholding interest to dominate Western development, and that is going to extend to the Pacific Coast as well, and Pacific commerce that people like Davis are imagining is going to, come across the Pacific from East Asia, and then be shipped across on the, on a railroad, uh, into the East.
• 31:39
  James Tejani: And so, people like Davis really begin to see the Coast Survey science as the way to determine where a transcontinental railroad is going to get built.
• 31:50
  James Tejani: They're absolutely determined that it has to be a southern railroad, and for that to happen, they need a southern railroad.
• 31:57
  James Tejani: Harbor on the Pacific Coast, essentially in Southern California and San Pedro Bay becomes that place.
• 32:04
  James Tejani: And so it's, it's a very interesting, I think, tragic story of the Coast Survey believing science can prevail, but ultimately the kind of crasser interests of politics are going to, uh, They're going to prevail over science.
• 32:19
  James Tejani: And I think there's lessons in that in our day and age that we science and politics.
• 32:25
  James Tejani: Um, we can think of them as separate.
• 32:27
  James Tejani: We can even think of science is the more nobler of the two, but we can never count out the fact that, you know, politics is going to come and, uh, contort or twist scientific outcomes in ways that we, uh, we should, we, we should not be overly.
• 32:46
  James Tejani: Um, optimistic that that that may not happen.
• 32:51
  James Tejani: And I think we've seen them happen in some ways.
• 32:56
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: That concludes part one of my interview with author James to Johnny.
• 33:01
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: About his book on the construction of the port of Los Angeles.
• 33:06
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: I hope you'll tune in for part two, where we take a deeper dive into some of the things that he brings out in the book.
• 33:14
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Such as the impact of the civil war on California.
• 33:19
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And us Imperial expansion.
• 33:22
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: At the end of the 19th century.
• 33:24
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Thank you.