Latest / The SEANC View / A Close Look at NC Public Safety with Interim Secretary Casandra Hoekstra

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A Close Look at NC Public Safety with Interim Secretary Casandra Hoekstra · The SEANC View

0:09
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Scenic View podcast.
0:13
I'm Jonathan Owens, along with Artis Watkins and Samantha Klein.
0:17
We have a great interview coming up at the end of this episode with Interim
0:21
DPS Secretary Cassandra Hoekstra. Hoekstra.
0:26
I've always seen that name, and I've always wanted to know how to pronounce
0:29
it. It's a really cool spelling, H-O-E-K-S-T-R-A, and it took me forever to
0:34
get down that it's Hoekstra.
0:36
But it's a cool name. Yeah. I have a confession. I did ask ChatGPT how to pronounce
0:41
it, and it was like, I don't know.
0:45
But it did say that it is a Dutch last name, so I did learn that.
0:49
She's a neat person and really, really so sharp and competent as an agency head.
0:58
We're very blessed as North Carolinians to have her. You could tell she really,
1:02
loves her employees as well because she had lots of good things to say about
1:06
them. That is always a bonus, isn't it?
1:08
Yeah. So if you work at DPS or anywhere, be sure to stick around and listen
1:12
to that interview. It was a great interview.
1:14
Before we go to it, though, I just want to talk about a few news topics.
1:19
First off, early voting started on October 15th, which is last week.
1:23
I think we may have recorded after it started or no, it started the day after
1:28
we recorded. Yeah, we recorded the day before. Yeah.
1:32
So as of Sunday, 525,000 votes had already been counted or cast. That's a lot.
1:39
240,000 are Democrats. See, I don't know how they get these numbers.
1:44
How do they know? Well, your registration. They don't know how you're voting,
1:48
but they know your registration.
1:49
Okay. Yeah. So 240,000 Democrats, 181,000 unaffiliated, and 102,000 Republicans
1:58
from WTVD's news story from Sunday.
2:01
Now, we're recording on Tuesday, so I guess that number is probably a lot larger.
2:05
Now, I need to make time to go vote. I haven't voted yet either.
2:10
I don't know. I like to vote on Election Day. Yeah. See, I went on Election
2:15
Day in 2024 this year, and I had not done that for a long time,
2:19
like three or four cycles.
2:21
It was packed. And like, I can see why. I think it's because it was presidential
2:26
election and everything. And it was like lunchtime.
2:30
But I think I'll try to do early voting from now on. I think it also depends on your voting site.
2:36
During the 2024 election, I
2:38
voted at a fire department, and it was very empty, and I voted on day of.
2:44
Well, we're encouraging state employees and retirees, vote early if you can.
2:48
You never know what's going to happen. You don't know if you're going to get the flu.
2:52
I mean, that's my fear. Like, if I put it off to one day, the chances that something
2:58
could blow that one day up for me are too high.
3:01
I think I'm a little forceful with myself to where even if I did have the flu,
3:05
I'd be like, I'll put on a mask. I'm going to make it to everybody.
3:09
Vote early and often. And often. Stop.
3:13
Speaking of voting, we released a press release yesterday that our executive
3:19
committee had voted to oppose the tax amendments on the November ballot.
3:24
Right. So there's one concerning income tax. It caps the tax.
3:29
Income tax rate at 3.5 percent. It's capped right now. It just caps it lower, yeah.
3:35
So the cap right now is 7 percent, and this would move it to 3.5 percent,
3:40
although the legislature has been well below 7 percent for quite some time, right?
3:47
Yeah, and I think that's where a lot of folks are getting a little confused on the tax cap issue.
3:54
You know, there's people saying they just need to allocate the resources better.
3:58
Yeah. First off, it's not a tax cut. Like, you're not getting a tax cut because of this amendment.
4:04
Yeah. And it'll limit the money that we have for our public services.
4:08
I mean, that's the basic reason to do it, right? I mean, not the basic byproduct
4:14
of doing this is you likely won't have as much revenue.
4:18
Well, okay. And so what does that mean, though? I mean, to put it down more to brass tacks...
4:23
Public safety, public health, and our overall economy are completely affected
4:29
by whether or not you can fund them correctly.
4:33
And every agency head we've had in here on this podcast has said they're not
4:37
getting enough funding for their agency to do things optimally.
4:44
And we know, we see the effects that the one the public really saw is DMV.
4:50
Other things they have no idea are happening or not happening that might affect
4:54
their safety, that might affect their health. I mean, we talked about the infant
4:58
formula, that there's federal and state folks that check that.
5:03
Elevator inspectors. Elevator inspectors. That's a really critical job.
5:07
And when you get in one, you're just trusting that this thing's good to go.
5:12
I think that therein lies the problem. We just saw public employees two years ago get no raise.
5:18
This past year, a very, very tiny raise.
5:22
Despite inflation being so high. Now, I don't think the legislature did that
5:27
because they dislike state employees.
5:30
They did it because they said they didn't have more money than that.
5:33
That's a problem because what you're going to end up getting is bottom-of-the-barrel
5:37
people to do very important jobs like build, inspect our bridges that we're
5:44
driving across with our kids, inspect our elevators that we're getting in with our kids.
5:48
Repairing roads across the state.
5:51
Yeah. And then we do more and more outsourcing of the roads,
5:54
which leads to your pet peeve, Sammy.
5:57
Construction delays, especially on Blue Ridge Road. You got Lenovo Center there.
6:02
The state there takes place off of Blue Ridge Road.
6:05
All of these different major events take place there. And there is a construction
6:09
project that was supposed to be done in 2023 that is still going on.
6:14
I mean, and you'll just get more and more of that because if you don't have,
6:18
the money to do it properly and you just start shoving these things off and
6:23
the money stretches over time that you're spending.
6:26
So it doesn't look like it's as bad, but you're spending ultimately a lot more
6:31
money to accomplish what could have been accomplished more efficiently and more economically.
6:36
So when people say, hey, I don't want any more of my taxes going to the government
6:41
anyway, they're missing kind of the point that what you are paying is supposed to protect you.
6:47
And it's apparently not enough. If it were, then the legislature,
6:51
unless they just dislike state employees, would be paying more to folks for
6:56
those state employee jobs, and they would be treating retirees better.
6:59
And that's the one I was going to bring up.
7:02
I mean, retirees aren't getting colas now.
7:05
Yeah. If this goes through, I don't see how they would ever be able to give,
7:08
the legislature would ever give one.
7:10
Well, the retirement system is a three-legged stool in terms of funding.
7:15
One is the gains or profit on investments that the treasurer makes for the system.
7:20
Two is what employees put in, 6% of their check every month.
7:24
And three is whatever the General Assembly puts in as an employer contribution, and that varies.
7:31
In recent years, it's had to be a good amount of money the General Assembly's had to put in.
7:37
And if the General Assembly had less money and had to cut back on that,
7:42
this COLA that it looks like Treasurer Briner is very close to getting retirees would go away. Yeah.
7:48
So, yeah. And the other amendment, Amendment 3, deals with the property tax
7:55
levy limit. Similar idea, I guess.
7:58
More effective and I guess local governments than state ones but,
8:03
You could see a scenario where their costs would be kicked up to the state and
8:07
taken up with the state budget because they have less funding.
8:10
There were things in the big, beautiful bill that got passed down to the states,
8:13
and then the states have shoved some of those down to the cities and counties
8:16
in terms of, you know, here, this is now on you.
8:19
And cities and counties, we have a lot of members who work in local government,
8:24
whether it's city or county. We've got a lot of police officers in scenic at this point.
8:30
We've got a lot of folks who work in schools.
8:32
If you strap these cities and counties, first of all, you're always going to
8:37
have more money. They find a way to get money another way because they're going
8:40
to have to have money to continue to fund things.
8:44
So for cities and counties, you're either going to see them embracing things
8:47
like data centers because they have to because there's no other way to get the
8:50
money or more fines, more fees. Same with the state.
8:55
If there's a tax cap and that tax cap has moved down so low,
9:01
that they're just suffocated, our economic growth is not enough to support us
9:06
at that tax cap level, then you're going to see more fines, more fees,
9:10
more things that hit the working class disproportionately.
9:13
And that's why Scenic took action. It's like, look, we usually try to stay out of this tax mess.
9:20
But the big but, how do you stay out of it when, again, the philosophy is if
9:26
we have a strong enough economy, this won't matter. We can cap it very, very low.
9:31
Well, apparently the economy's not been strong enough to pay adequately for
9:36
state employees and take care of retirees who gave their whole career,
9:41
you know, making less than they
9:42
would have in the private sector to try to get some crumbs at the end.
9:47
And so if we're not even able to do that, then our economy's not strong enough for this.
9:52
The thing I keep seeing thrown up on social media in response to our announcement
9:58
and just the debate in general is, you know, well, Florida doesn't even have
10:02
an income tax or Texas doesn't even have.
10:05
But they also have huge property taxes. Right. They shove it down.
10:09
Yeah. And sales tax. Oh, yeah. I mean. So they're going to get their money.
10:13
My oldest son has, you know, his home is in Florida and he'll tell you all about it.
10:19
And plus Florida is like a tourist haven. So to get a lot of money coming in
10:23
that way, it's different, but...
10:25
It's a very complicated issue. I couldn't help but draw a little bit from our
10:30
last discussion with Thomas Friedman about the health plan in that the comments
10:34
we were getting on that post,
10:37
you know, about the atrium situation, was the state government should just pay
10:42
for whatever it is that atrium charges.
10:45
Well, they obviously could not if they had a limit like this, right?
10:49
Right. They would just—your health plan would probably for—.
10:53
Moving forward would be here. We're going to give you a little bit of money
10:57
and you go find health care with that, which would not be good health care.
11:01
So that's the reason these things, putting handcuffs,
11:05
obviously any general assembly needs to react and legislate and appropriate
11:14
responsibly using fiscal discipline.
11:17
The idea is if they don't, they'll be voted out in two years. Yeah.
11:21
But what we an odd concept is for to expect the public who is not looking at
11:27
the books, not looking at what the needs of each agency are,
11:31
probably can't tell you because they're living their lives, performing their jobs.
11:36
They've got so much going on. There's no way they can tell you what each agency
11:39
does or what the needs there are.
11:41
So the public, that's the reason the public, you don't put those things on the
11:46
ballot, because who's going to say, no, I don't want to cap it low.
11:51
I want you to be able to tax me more.
11:53
No one's going to say that. But if you frame it differently and say,
11:56
look, you willing to roll the dice?
11:59
Maybe some infant formula gets through that is not is not the best.
12:04
Then all of a sudden, wait a minute. No, you better provide me good services.
12:08
Keep me healthy. Make sure law enforcement has what they need.
12:11
It's like if they were to reword it and say, limit public resources to all the
12:18
state, would you vote for it then? Yeah, exactly.
12:22
Good analogy there. I think it's also interesting that the property tax debate
12:26
is coming up at a time when huge corporations are trying to build data centers
12:31
that will cost lots in property taxes.
12:36
Maybe...
12:37
Right. I mean, it's not popular. All right. So if you ask people,
12:41
do you want data centers, they pretty much say no.
12:45
But if you ask people, do you want a cap on your property tax? Yes.
12:52
Without them realizing the very next step. There also could very well have to
12:57
be data centers for county commissioners who have to balance the budget.
13:02
I think they're talking about building one in Sanford. I think it got approved
13:07
already. So I may go to work at the data center.
13:12
Now, there's only like two or three jobs. I was going to say,
13:14
I think that's kind of the whole thing about it. You'd get to play with AI a lot.
13:20
Anyway, speaking of the state health plan, I did bring it up here a few minutes ago.
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The state health plan board of trustees will meet on October 27th.
13:30
And this is their, obviously, their
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first meeting since the whole atrium out-of-networks situation occurred.
13:37
So they obviously have a lot to talk about, right? Oh, goodness, yes.
13:41
And we'll be front row, front and center. We'll be right there in the middle
13:45
of it. We'll definitely have a recap of that probably on the next episode.
13:49
So we also have a few guests scheduled to come in next week to talk to us about
13:53
the amendments. Greg Meyer from the NC Justice Center and Representative Paul.
13:59
Can we still call him Representative, right? He's once a girl. I do.
14:02
If you're once a representative, always a representative to me.
14:05
Paul Skipstam will be coming in to speak to us.
14:09
That's an odd couple. It'll be a great discussion. I was going to ask you about
14:13
that. Yeah, Skipstam was, you know.
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Skip Stam is very, very Republican, and Greg Meyer was, when he was in the General
14:22
Assembly, very, very big D Democratic.
14:25
But they're both very keenly interested in what the law says.
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So it'll be really interesting. They're both bright. They're both interesting.
14:36
I can't wait. Get a little sparring going on with some legislatures.
14:42
Legislators just like old times, right?
14:46
Well, that'll be fun. I don't have any other topics to talk about.
14:50
I did hear that you went to the State Fair, though, Artis. How was that? Listen, it was so good.
14:57
Saying by what I said to the commissioner, I want the pig races back.
15:01
I miss them every year. It makes me sad.
15:05
I want the free hush puppies back, but that's been a long time now.
15:08
Yeah. You know what? House of Autry. You know what game I haven't seen in a while?
15:13
There's this one where you like throw dimes onto like saucers and things,
15:17
and you get to keep that thing. You don't see that anymore.
15:20
You know what's been gone for a long time? It took me a while to think about
15:23
it. Whack-a-mole. Oh, yeah.
15:25
Whack-a-mole was awesome. I was good at that.
15:28
I feel like it might be just an expensive. Well, since I can only use my right
15:31
hand right now, I thought whack-a-mole would have been a great game.
15:35
And I wonder if they still have the goldfish games where you can win a goldfish.
15:39
I'm sure they have to have that, right? I don't know.
15:41
I feel like we had very different state fair experiences. I feel like the goldfish
15:46
game always made me feel a little bad.
15:48
Yeah. But I don't remember. I don't know if I saw that last night.
15:53
I went and saw the big animals. I was always in the agricultural center and
15:58
visiting those kinds of things. Whenever I went to the state fair,
16:01
my parents weren't necessarily there to be like, go get on rides.
16:04
They were like, do you know how dangerous these things are? Yeah.
16:07
Yeah. Yeah. Well, shout out to Department of Labor, making sure they're not
16:11
dangerous to the degree they can.
16:13
And I think my mom's fear was always just like they are put up that they are
16:18
checked and well vetted, but they are put up so quickly and have to be taken
16:22
down and moved so quickly. It's a legitimate concern. My mom was fearful of that.
16:27
So I have a challenge for you next year, Sammy. Okay. You like to cook,
16:31
don't you? I love to cook. You need to join. You need to like enter something.
16:36
I sent y'all a TikTok of a woman who won the cake contest.
16:41
You need to figure out something you can do. Everybody needs to be there.
16:45
John's family's rep. I went and saw John's family. They were so nice.
16:50
That's my cousin Janet. Traditions Pottery. They're in the village of yesteryear,
16:54
and it's gorgeous stuff. Yeah.
16:56
I wanted to buy some of it. But my thing was. I can get it to you for free.
17:00
What do you do at the fair if you buy pottery? I guess they keep it there till
17:04
the end of when you're about to leave.
17:06
Yeah, they'll keep it for you. They'll even mail it to you if you want.
17:08
Just absolutely gorgeous stuff, though. Yeah. And really cute Halloween stuff. Yeah.
17:12
Yeah. But I love the village of yesteryear.
17:15
Maybe I'll enter my pumpkin cheesecake next year. There you go.
17:18
Yeah. Yeah, I bet pumpkin dessert is probably a popular one,
17:22
don't you think? I made it for the office like one time. Oh,
17:25
yeah. And I think CJ took like two slices home with him.
17:30
Also in the village of yesteryear a bladesmith named scott mcgee he is i think
17:36
he's from like franklin county yeah,
17:39
unbelievable y'all go see him while you're in the village of yesteryear as well
17:43
i mean just an unbelievably skilled bladesmith and he he'll go over to the the
17:49
forge there at heritage forge,
17:51
sometimes and you can watch him make something but he's very cool he's one of
17:56
a kind we've just we're blessed with,
17:59
with creative talent in the state that really hits me every time i'm there like
18:03
we are blessed you've got an awesome state fair yeah and remember when,
18:08
you would see like the wrl people there and you would think you were really
18:12
meeting a celebrity right yes and i would be signing autographs i always wanted
18:16
to get on tv like if i walked by enough times.
18:19
Yeah. Yeah. And now...
18:22
Now, now I'm like, oh God. So, yes, the fair was as outstanding as it always is. However...
18:32
I may have to go in for just five minutes one day because I wanted,
18:37
from a place called Granny's Kitchen in that little heritage village,
18:41
it said, sweet potato biscuit with country ham and sweet potato butter.
18:47
Oh, that's, yeah, that's, that sounds delicious. That sounds really good. It does, doesn't it?
18:52
I can't get it out of my head. I've seen a lot of videos of people eating the
18:55
food this year. I think a big thing that I've seen that's been very popular,
18:58
I think it's, what, Peachy's Donuts or something? Oh, my goodness.
19:01
Okay, so I was going to get one of those. Mm-hmm.
19:04
And they have people working their hineys off inside the peachy's donut hut.
19:11
I mean, these women are working as fast as they can go.
19:14
But the line, y'all.
19:18
That's what I saw. I think I saw a video on Sunday where it was like 9.45 p.m.
19:22
And the line was still ridiculous. They were like, hey, the state fair closed at 9.30.
19:27
Right. And these people are still in line. Unless George Strait is going to
19:30
serve me that donut, I'm not waiting that long.
19:32
I always thought that it should have, like, a lunch deal where,
19:36
like, people that work around it can go and don't have to pay admission and just go.
19:40
They used to do that the day before entry. I don't know if they still do.
19:42
They have a media day that's, like, right beforehand.
19:45
I mean, because, you know, a lot of people would just go there to eat lunch. We did. Yeah.
19:49
When I worked for the state, we would go down there. Yeah.
19:52
But, yeah, it's a wonderful thing. And that's another thing I was going to ask.
19:54
Do state employees get a discount at the fair or no? They used to, right?
20:00
Or we used to give them these. Yeah, I think we used to, but I don't think state
20:04
employees, I don't remember ever.
20:05
There is a couple special admission days, though. So there is one where I know
20:09
it's if you bring six non-perishable food items, then you can get in for free.
20:14
So think about that. And then there's also this Wednesday. So tomorrow,
20:18
that's a little irrelevant right now.
20:19
But Wednesday, October 21st is Veterans Appreciation Day slash Military Appreciation
20:25
Day. And so military and veterans can get in themselves as well as three guests
20:31
for free. That's great. That's appropriate. Yes.
20:34
You know, speaking of military, speaking of that makes me think of gunshots.
20:38
I miss the turkey shoot. They don't have a turkey shoot? The Jaycees ran one
20:43
for years. And they only, last year was first year, it wasn't there.
20:47
But it was awesome. And so there was constant shotgun noises at the state fair. I did a turkey shoot.
20:55
I wrote a story about it when I was at the Herald, Sanford Herald.
20:59
I was not very good. But I didn't win a turkey. But it was fun.
21:03
We got our Thanksgiving turkey at the fair one year.
21:06
Remember they used to have like drag races and like a jet-powered car out there and it was loud.
21:13
Oh, yeah, that. I miss that noise, too. Yeah.
21:16
All right. Well, you can't live in the past. You got to move to the future.
21:20
Well, I enjoy this interview with San Hoekstra, the Department of Public Safety
21:25
Interim Secretary, and have a great week.
21:34
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Scenic View podcast.
21:39
I'm John Owens, along with Artis Watkins and Samantha Klein.
21:43
Our guest this week leads one of the largest agencies in the state,
21:47
and it's a time of real change for the agency from what I understand.
21:52
North Carolina Department of Public Safety Interim Secretary Cassandra Hookstrow is our guest today.
21:59
And you said you go by San. I go by San. Well, we'll call you Madam Secretary, as artists said.
22:06
Thank you so much for coming in.
22:08
So, Governor Stein named you interim secretary in August, and before that,
22:14
you were the department's chief of staff, correct?
22:17
Okay. And you have more than 25 years in state policy and government relations experience.
22:24
That's what I think Wikipedia told me about you. That's true.
22:29
No, but you have a long career in public service, and we're happy that you're
22:33
here with us today. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you.
22:37
I appreciate you having me. Okay. Are you a frequent listener of the Repo?
22:40
No, I'm just kidding. Every chance I get.
22:44
After this, after this one. I knew that was coming.
22:47
As you know, Scenic has a lot of members in DPS.
22:51
We had even more before the split with corrections, so that'll be one topic
22:56
we'll get into, just about the new structure of the agency.
23:00
But first, let's learn a little bit about your career in public service and
23:03
what brought you to pursue a career in public service? Okay.
23:07
So I have always had what I would call a strong calling to help others.
23:15
That's just, that's something that I've always wanted to do.
23:19
And public service is something that has allowed me to pursue that.
23:24
I've wanted a career with purpose. I wanted a career where I could really be
23:29
a benefit or help to others. And that's how I wound up in the public service
23:35
and then public safety space. Okay.
23:38
You know, you started with a psychology degree. Is that right?
23:42
Yes. So, okay. You've been reading my resume. Yes. No, I'm just,
23:46
okay. So that makes me really curious though. How does someone,
23:49
psychology degree, then law school,
23:51
That's not very common, is it? It's more common than you might think.
23:55
My original path, I wanted to go into the mental health field.
24:00
I was intending to be a psychiatrist or psychologist, but had some fits and starts while in school.
24:09
And then I was very clearly in my mind, and I happened to be a person of faith,
24:15
and I felt like I was being called into a completely different direction.
24:19
And that was to go to law school. And so I finished my undergraduate degree
24:24
and went on to law school.
24:26
And the way things just fell into place, it was clear to me that that's what
24:30
I was supposed to be doing.
24:31
Oh, that's a nice story. I was thinking you were like CIA.
24:36
Because I'm like, psychology, then law, that's...
24:39
Well, we don't tell people that. You can't tell it. So, like I said,
24:43
you were named interim secretary in August and you were the chief of staff before.
24:48
What was that conversation like when the governor asked you to?
24:51
Well, it was a conversation that I'd had once before because I have served as
24:56
the interim secretary previously.
24:59
It was one that was a bit unexpected. We did not know what the governor's intention
25:05
was with regard to then-Secretary Jeff Smythe.
25:09
But when he called and asked, or a member of his staff, he personally didn't
25:13
call me, but a member of his staff called and asked if I would be willing to
25:16
step. I was happy to do that.
25:18
And I think I was probably the natural choice because I had done it before.
25:24
And I've been with this department in its various iterations for a long time.
25:29
I jokingly call myself the DPS dinosaur because I have been around so long and
25:34
in various different roles.
25:35
And so I felt like this was an opportunity for me to kind of provide some continuity
25:41
to the team, a face that they knew, a name that they knew since they had been through summer.
25:47
Well, it's a bonus that the legislature always also respects you,
25:50
both sides over there. So that's a bonus for an agency. Thank you. I appreciate that.
25:56
And over the years, I've been able to build some really good relationships with
25:59
members of the General Assembly.
26:01
I did do legislative work early on. And so that helped to establish those partnerships,
26:06
those relationships. So you mentioned that you were interim secretary.
26:10
I guess it was 2021 when you were there.
26:13
Since then, there's been lots of changes in the agency, right?
26:16
In 2023, Adult Corrections was separated into its own agency.
26:22
And then the State Highway Patrol went independent. in 2025,
26:27
right? And those are two big parts of the agency.
26:31
How is this time different? Oh, wow. Well, it's...
26:35
Previously, in 2021, that was sort of at the height of COVID.
26:40
And we were the largest agency at that time, more than 26,000 employees.
26:45
And a lot of the decisions that the leadership team and myself were making included
26:53
things like safety protocols to protect the staff, to protect the people who
26:59
are in our care and custody.
27:00
In fact, I remember being on calls with you artists and Suzanne and others to
27:06
talk about, you know, what things we needed to put in place.
27:09
That was when vaccines were just coming out.
27:13
Masking, social distancing, all of those things.
27:17
And just trying to make the best decision for the people that do the jobs and
27:23
also to make sure that we were keeping those that we had in our custody and care.
27:28
You know, we were blessed with so many folks and agencies who really cared about
27:31
their folks and cared about the public.
27:34
And during that really difficult time, we're just going all out to help people.
27:38
But to this day, we talk about you. That's when our respect for you went to the next level.
27:45
Everybody was doing great, but you were one that really stuck with us.
27:48
We were like, okay, she really wants to make sure everybody's okay.
27:51
And your folks faced some of the biggest dangers, honestly.
27:55
We did because of the nature of the work that we do or did at that time,
27:59
particularly in the facilities. You know, there was really no way to social
28:03
distance in a prison facility or even a juvenile facility.
28:08
And then with masking and vaccinations, that was all, I mean,
28:12
those were all difficult decisions. trying to balance personal choice with what
28:16
was best for, you know, the staff and the people that we were serving.
28:20
And then the law enforcement, you know, the enforcement that also was fraught
28:26
with risk or some sort of COVID exposure.
28:30
So it sounds like the department has had several leadership changes in the last six years or so.
28:35
So how has the staff handled it, and have you been able to kind of instill some,
28:42
stability now since you're coming back to the job? Mm-hmm.
28:46
Yes, we have undergone a great deal of change over the past three,
28:50
four years. It's a very different-looking department.
28:53
Mission is still the same. Focus is still the same. But the makeup of the department is different.
28:58
And I have to say that my priority for this transition is to provide some stability,
29:04
and continuity for the staff.
29:06
You know, change can be a good thing or it can result in some positive outcomes.
29:11
But it is also very stressful. And the amount of change in such a short period
29:16
of time, I'm concerned about how it is impacting staff, staff morale,
29:23
their responsibilities have changed.
29:25
Some have had to do more with less, you know, fewer staff to do the work that needs to get done.
29:31
And so I've worked very hard and continue to make sure that staff know that
29:36
they are seen, they're appreciated, they're valued.
29:38
Yeah, we've been through this before. We will get through this too.
29:42
And that just that I appreciate all the work that they do.
29:45
We have an amazing team. We have got some highly motivated, highly dedicated
29:52
staff in all areas of the department. And I'm just humbled to be able to work
29:56
with that team and to serve in this role.
29:59
So I'm looking over the departments that you oversee at DPS now.
30:04
And it's just a wide range of different entities, Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention,
30:12
Emergency Management with Homeland Security, Alcohol Law Enforcement,
30:17
the National Guard, the Office of Recovery and Resiliency,
30:22
the Crime Commission, Victims' Compensation Services, and Samarkand Training
30:27
Academy are some that I have listed here.
30:30
And then you throw in the Highway Patrol and Adult Correction when you were in charge of first.
30:37
Was it just too big, did you think, at that time?
30:39
I mean, it seems like that's a lot.
30:42
It was a lot. It was a large agency. And, you know, although it was.
30:48
How's the best way to describe it?
30:50
We all had that public safety focus and that mission, but it was coming from
30:54
a number of different perspectives, you know, that custody and care perspective.
30:59
And then you had law enforcement, National Guard, emergency management. So, too large.
31:05
I think that it was a big department.
31:08
26,000 employees. It was big.
31:12
And I think that particularly with the split off of adult correction,
31:17
that was something that allowed that division and later department to.
31:22
Provide some more attention to some of their unique needs and challenges and
31:27
allowed them to get some much needed resources.
31:31
Whereas, you know, they may have kind of gotten lost in the larger DPS in some respects.
31:37
Well, let's talk about resources because that's a big focus for us usually.
31:41
We did talk to Billy Lassiter at the Juvenile Justice, I guess you call him,
31:46
department? It's a division. Division, okay.
31:49
And he said that he's facing large vacancies and trouble trying to get people
31:55
to work in the department.
31:57
Is that something you're experiencing across the board in DPS or...?
32:01
I think recruitment and retention is a challenge for all state agencies at this point.
32:06
But yes, it is something that we are experiencing more so in juvenile justice.
32:12
They had carried some of the higher vacancy rates in the agency,
32:17
particularly with the facility-based staff.
32:20
But we have gotten some additional resources thanks to the General Assembly
32:25
and a pay plan that they put in place.
32:27
That has helped us with our recruitment, and we have seen some improvement in
32:30
some of those vacancy rates.
32:33
But it's still a process. You know, additional resources would be welcome.
32:38
And of course, you know, anything to recruit and keep.
32:42
Yeah, to be fair, when we talked to Director Lassiter, it was prior to the budget
32:47
actually being enacted.
32:49
And I know there was a good amount of money for some of those positions.
32:53
But I still wonder, being where
32:56
we were compared to everyone else in the country, that was a great step.
33:02
But we still have some big, big steps to make is what.
33:06
I'm concerned about, that we don't feel like, look, we've done this,
33:09
because I know we were just talking about the Pasquatank and Bertie County murder,
33:13
and that it's been nine years.
33:15
That's right. And I got to thinking about that right after those things happened.
33:20
There was a lot of resources thrown. I thought it might be sustained,
33:23
but we weren't able to keep it sustained enough.
33:26
And so that really got me thinking about the big raises this year for different
33:30
kinds of agencies dealing with tough situations, tough vacancy rates.
33:35
And I think it's very clear we've got to keep the foot on the gas.
33:39
I think you're exactly right. I think that we're having to compete with private
33:42
sector, and that is difficult. These are not easy jobs, a lot of them.
33:47
And so to ensure that these staff receive the kind of salaries that would make
33:52
them better competitive with their private peers, I think is really important.
33:57
So there's more work to do. A lot of work that's been done, but there's more work to do.
34:01
Yeah, we hear the vacancy issue comes up on most every interview that we do with agency heads.
34:08
What are some of the other challenges facing your department?
34:12
So, well, one that we sort of touched on, I have been concerned about morale with all of the changes.
34:19
And so just really focused on trying to maintain some stability.
34:25
Because even with all of the changes, we find that our teams are still supporting
34:31
those agencies that have been separated out to help them.
34:36
Become more independent. So they're not only doing, you know,
34:40
work for the DPS department, but also
34:43
still trying to help get those other departments where they need to be.
34:48
You know, in this environment, public safety is, it has, it's fraught with a lot of issues.
34:53
I would say also as the Homeland Security Advisor, you know, there are
34:58
challenges now that in terms of cybersecurity and some of those things,
35:01
protecting infrastructure, those kinds of things that weren't things we thought
35:05
about in the past or really didn't have to focus on those kinds of risks.
35:08
So it's a new day in terms of the kinds of challenges that we face in public safety.
35:13
I listen to the DPS podcast. By the way, they have a podcast,
35:17
y'all. So if you ever want to listen, you should.
35:21
Does it have a name? I always just look DPS up and it comes up on my screen.
35:24
It's a safety scoop. Safety scoop. Yeah.
35:27
It is really, it's interesting. And I was listening. I know John would like
35:30
this. He likes anything about, he likes AI the best. That fascinates him the most.
35:35
But cybersecurity would fascinate him too. And I was listening to the one with
35:39
someone from the National Guard about cybersecurity.
35:42
And I thought, wow. I mean, that's a massive thing to have under your roof in
35:48
terms of responsibilities.
35:50
And we have an excellent cybersecurity team within the Guard.
35:54
And they provide support to local agencies and other entities that need to,
36:02
you know, they do pen tests.
36:04
I don't want to overspeak my understanding of this issue. Okay.
36:09
You already overspoken because we're not that with it.
36:12
What is a pen test? A penetration test to determine, you know,
36:16
how vulnerable a particular system is.
36:18
But they provide all of that for these local entities to make sure that they
36:24
have a clear understanding of what their risks are, what their vulnerabilities
36:27
are, and then help them with how to improve their system. So it's a wonderful... Are we secure?
36:34
We can send them over here to make sure. Oh, no, I don't mean...
36:38
Is North Carolina secure? I need you to tell us. Is North Carolina secure? Yeah.
36:43
North Carolina is always actively monitoring for any sorts of threats.
36:47
Perfect. I like that. Somebody's watching out. We are always watching.
36:51
Well, since you brought up AI, I guess I can ask my AI. He loves it.
36:55
He comes there every day. So is DPS starting to integrate AI into its work?
37:01
We're just beginning to.
37:03
We have just kind of dipped our toe into it some.
37:07
And we have been very mindful of, you know, security risks and privacy concerns
37:13
and just wanting to make sure that, you know, whatever we do is safe and secure.
37:18
But we have used it for things like policy reviews. I think some of the grant
37:24
management positions that are in Governor's Crime Commission and even in emergency
37:29
management, victim services, they are using AI to assist with that as well.
37:34
So it is something that we're starting to kind of utilize to make our jobs easier or more efficient.
37:41
So I'll put you on the spot just very briefly.
37:44
What would you say to one of your employees who are worried that AI may replace them?
37:50
What would I say to an employee who is worried that AI may replace them?
37:54
When I look at the kinds of positions that we have in public safety,
37:59
I don't see that AI could replace them.
38:04
A lot of them are, you know, positions that require somebody to be there to
38:09
interact with someone from either a JJ standpoint, providing services to.
38:16
Educational services, mental health services, those kinds of things that I don't
38:21
see AI being in a position to.
38:23
So, yeah, we're not going to have robots rolling around the juvenile facility
38:27
to help with, you know, all the services that no robo cops just yet.
38:32
And rehabilitation services. Right. Yeah.
38:34
I don't see that. OK, so switching gears a little bit, the anniversary of Hurricane
38:39
Helene just passed. And I know that your department was very involved in the
38:45
efforts up there. How is it looking?
38:48
Is it two years or one year? It's two years. Two years. It's been two years.
38:50
How are things two years removed from the...
38:53
Well, it is still an ongoing recovery process.
38:58
I think there's been a great deal of progress, a number of resources,
39:02
financial and others, that have helped with the recovery. But recovery is a long process.
39:10
And, you know, it takes a long time. And it is never quick enough,
39:14
certainly from the perspective of those who have experienced and suffered through the disaster.
39:20
But even from our standpoint, you know, processes, a lot of the bureaucracy
39:26
and those kinds of things that go into these processes can extend them.
39:29
So we are doing everything we can to try to do things more quickly.
39:34
That's certainly the directive that we've gotten from the governor's office
39:38
to try to get people back in their homes and get them, make them whole again.
39:43
But it is a lengthy process.
39:45
So I know that even here at Scenic, it engulfed our work for many months.
39:50
I mean, it was pretty much all that we did for at least three or four months afterwards, I'm sure.
39:56
Was that the case in your department? Is it kind of an all-hands-on-deck type thing?
40:01
Yes. Because it was kind of, I mean, it was unprecedented what happened.
40:04
Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And so it really did touch several areas of the department.
40:09
And it continues to touch several areas of the department as we try to help people.
40:16
Yeah, I know a lot of people up there are very appreciative of the things that
40:20
your department has done and continues to do.
40:22
And in partnership with a lot of other state agencies, too.
40:27
All right. So in your view, what are the biggest challenges you face right now?
40:32
I mean, you've been throwing a lot of curveballs.
40:34
I think that juvenile justice and their staffing, I think that continues to be a challenge.
40:41
One we're working on, we talked about some of the resources that have been provided
40:46
to us to help make a difference there, but that continues to be a challenge.
40:50
Capacity, you know, there are some areas where the facilities are just,
40:55
almost overcapacity because of need for additional facilities.
41:00
And so that's something that continues to be a challenge for us.
41:04
But also, we talked about Hurricane Helene. That's a huge focus.
41:08
And then just Homeland Security in general, some of the new and different threats.
41:13
I think that we need to be planning for the completely unexpected,
41:17
you know, something that that's, I think that is the threat.
41:20
We've seen some of the things that have happened and could happen,
41:24
But I think that in this environment, we need to be thinking more out of the
41:28
box about how to prepare for some of this.
41:31
Listen, I went to the fair last night, and I passed these two gentlemen at a
41:34
table who had a little stand, and they were ham radio operators.
41:40
And I told my son, those guys are going to be okay when something happens.
41:45
And he said, what are you even talking about?
41:46
I said, listen, at some point, all communication could be shut down,
41:51
and those guys are going to somehow be communicating. So it's like the people
41:55
who know how to grow their own food and everything else, the ham radio operators.
42:01
But it made me really think about it. I don't usually think about what if something
42:05
bad happened, you know, but—,
42:07
Seeing them really did make me think, I bet there's a lot of stuff in place
42:12
for if a mass disaster happened like that.
42:14
There are a lot of resources that are looking at those things,
42:19
planning for those things, preparing lots of exercises and whatnot that are
42:23
happening to prepare for.
42:26
It's such a different time. When we were little, we would have to get under
42:28
our desk to plan for, you know, crazy, crazy stuff.
42:32
Like at the time, it was all about the United States and Russia and,
42:36
you know, just post-Cuban missile crisis, you know, whatever,
42:39
a couple decades post-Cuban missile crisis. So there was these weird fears out
42:44
there. Now, I think it's much more insidious.
42:46
It's not some big thing like that. It's somebody with a few keystrokes could
42:51
shut down the banking system and everything else. That's, I don't think we could
42:56
have imagined this is where we'd be in our lifetime.
42:58
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And it's in your lap. Oh, my goodness.
43:03
I feel sorry for you, but I'm glad it's you because I feel confident.
43:07
So we are employee-focused podcasts, obviously. It's in our name.
43:12
So let's talk a little bit about being an employee at the DPS.
43:17
One of DPS's stated goals is to be a career destination. What would you tell
43:21
a state employee thinking about getting a job at DPS?
43:25
Okay, and I'm just going to say it on this podcast that DPS is the best agency
43:29
in state government. We've heard that several times.
43:32
Well, you're telling the truth. Yeah, I am. I am a DPS champion all the way.
43:36
Have loved this agency from my very start. I just, the mission is one that I
43:43
just has resonated with me and I think resonates with people who have a real
43:48
public service mindset.
43:50
And we do focus on our employees. We are always trying to think of ways to make
43:58
their work easier, ways to help them with their life-work balance.
44:04
And, you know, compensation is just one piece of that.
44:07
But what are some of the other things that we can do to show our employees that
44:11
they're appreciated, that they're valued, to make their experience at DPS one
44:16
that they enjoy, but one that sets us apart from other departments?
44:21
And that's something we're constantly looking at and exploring and trying new things.
44:25
Well, that goes right into my next question. But beyond pay,
44:29
what keeps people at DPS?
44:31
Maybe what drives them away? I think that the mission and the work to keep people
44:37
at DPS. I also think it's the people at DPS that keep our teams, our folks there.
44:43
Like I said previously, we have a great team.
44:47
And I think that, you know, even for some of,
44:51
our interns who later come back and want to work as part of DPS,
44:57
they see the camaraderie, they see the commitment, they see that we try to grow together.
45:04
Staff, you know, we look at or pay attention to those areas where we can see
45:10
that they have potential and try to grow staff so that they can go on to lead
45:16
somewhere in the department going forward.
45:19
And something that drives them away? What drives them away? It could be salary.
45:24
I mean, oftentimes we lose people to the private sector where they're able to make more money.
45:30
And then some of our jobs, as you know, you can't really work remotely.
45:34
And that has been a big recruitment tool, employee satisfaction sort of resource
45:40
or tool that we've been able to use.
45:42
But we have a lot of jobs that just don't allow for that.
45:45
I assume you're also competing not only with the private sector,
45:49
but with other law enforcement agencies, right? That is exactly right. Yeah.
45:54
How does the state compare to, say, I know in the prison system we...
45:58
We lose them to detention centers, county detention centers.
46:02
Is that a similar... I think that that is improving, but then you have state
46:06
law enforcement agencies that are not necessarily on par.
46:09
And so there's always that sort of push-pull, tug-of-war where there may be
46:16
a draw to another law enforcement agency that can pay more.
46:20
Yeah. So it's a constant trying to keep par.
46:26
And the legislative, I mean, you understand the legislature in a unique way.
46:30
I think that what was fascinating to me to watch in the last session was,
46:35
the way LAP's salary money became a football.
46:40
And on the one hand, I love talking about how many vacant positions there are
46:46
because it shows one of two things.
46:48
Number one, a lot of them are vacant because we can't recruit people for those
46:51
positions, but we also can't delete the positions because the number two is
46:55
that agencies aren't getting funded enough. This is my words,
46:58
not yours, so I can't get you in trouble with the General Assembly.
47:01
But in my opinion, lobbying for state employees, the General Assembly is not
47:07
and has not forever been funding agencies adequately to do the work.
47:12
If you visit all 100 counties and
47:15
talk to people, that's one of the first things you find out in our job.
47:20
Now, your agency and LAPS salary money, we've had agency heads come in here
47:25
and they have told us wild things about how they had to use LAPS salary money.
47:31
And that it wasn't just some sort of slush fund sitting around.
47:34
It became part of the basics of, I'm talking light bills, things like that.
47:41
You know, paying vendors who otherwise would have been stiffed by the state.
47:45
So what is your agency's experience with LAPS salary money?
47:50
Laps salary is something that we've had to use for operational needs with,
47:55
like you said, utilities, paying the bills, paying vendors, training,
48:00
any training that needs to happen because there isn't a training budget per se.
48:04
Gas, you know, the fuel for law enforcement officers and JJ staff.
48:11
So that's where a lot of these lap salary dollars are going just to kind of keep the lights on.
48:18
And I'll be honest with you, we've not had a single agency head who's come in
48:23
here who has not indicated exactly that.
48:26
So, you know, I think that's where the whole lap salary discussion,
48:30
again, it was useful to a degree, but it was also,
48:35
it almost got spun on its head to where we feared a lot more jobs would be cut,
48:39
than even ended up being cut.
48:42
Even Director Lassiter, remember when he was talking about how he has to,
48:48
he's federally mandated to have a certain number of jobs, so he has to fill them.
48:54
With attempts, which do it in ways that cost more.
49:00
You'd like to get people on and give them a decent salary and benefits and keep them.
49:05
But, yeah, I feel for everybody trying to run an agency right now because that
49:09
is very, it's hard to plan for. but.
49:13
I think that the other thing that we've pointed out is that since 2009,
49:19
the number of state employees has not increased, but the population's increased, I think, by 19 percent.
49:24
That's unbelievable. So particularly where public safety is concerned,
49:29
how do you keep 19 percent more people as safe with basically the same number
49:34
of personnel trying to accomplish that mission?
49:38
And that's a constant struggle. It's a constant challenge. the need for more resources.
49:43
Again, the responsibility has remained. And in many instances,
49:48
it's greater than it was.
49:50
So trying to match our resources to our mission and what our responsibilities are,
49:57
it is, we're constantly asking for, we've asked for additional positions in various parts,
50:03
of the agency, not just within some of the divisions, but in some of the support roles, too, because
50:09
as the agency grows, you know, as the public needs increase,
50:12
so do the needs for the administrative support roles that support the divisions
50:17
that do the work. I sound like a broken record.
50:20
No, you actually, you just hit on something really people don't probably have
50:24
the time to bring up, but you hit it.
50:27
And I think this gets lost in the legislative process, too. There's a lot of
50:31
administrative folks who are absolutely necessary for frontline folks to get it done.
50:36
It's easy to get a political body to get excited about the frontline folks and
50:41
think that everybody back in a cubicle is superfluous.
50:46
Absolutely untrue. So I'm really glad you touched on it.
50:50
To get bills paid, you're going to need, you know, more folks in the controller's
50:54
office, in the budget office.
50:56
To tell our story, we need more folks in the communications office,
51:00
in HR to do the hiring. I mean, you know, any expansion of responsibility also
51:05
comes with a need, an expansion of the need. Takes a whole team.
51:10
So my last question, and then if you guys have any, you can chime in.
51:14
But what is your message to DPS employees who may be listening right now?
51:20
So I would just thank DPS employees for what they do every single day.
51:24
I thank them for their commitment. I thank them for their dedication to public
51:30
service and public safety.
51:32
We see them. I see them. And they make North Carolina safer.
51:37
Every role in the department has a unique contribution to public safety overall.
51:44
And I am grateful as a secretary, but also as a North Carolinian.
51:50
Great answer. And thank you so much for coming in. Thank you.
51:54
I enjoyed talking to you. Likewise.