Latest / Never Post / Roundtable: Is The Internet Driving You To The Brink?

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Roundtable: Is The Internet Driving You To The Brink? · Never Post

• 1 00:00:15,975 --> 00:00:20,295 Mike Rugnetta: Friends, hello, and welcome to a Neverpost team 2 00:00:20,295 --> 00:00:23,975 chat roundtable where the staff of Neverpost gather round the 3 00:00:23,975 --> 00:00:27,415 metaphorical table to discuss something that has been on our 4 00:00:27,415 --> 00:00:34,310 minds. And this team chat is about how to not go insane. More 5 00:00:34,310 --> 00:00:41,350 on that later. First, joining me today, paired with what I assume 6 00:00:41,510 --> 00:00:45,195 are their favorite dog breeds, which I would like to 7 00:00:45,195 --> 00:00:49,835 contextualize by saying each dog breed is god's favorite. 8 00:00:51,275 --> 00:00:52,235 Georgia Hampton: Nice save. 9 00:00:52,235 --> 00:00:54,555 Mike Rugnetta: But we but we ask the hard questions here on 10 00:00:54,555 --> 00:00:58,555 Neverpost. Jason Oberholzer, Neverpost executive producer, 11 00:00:58,555 --> 00:00:59,195 has a dog. 12 00:00:59,540 --> 00:01:00,260 Jason Oberholtzer: I do. 13 00:01:00,260 --> 00:01:01,940 Mike Rugnetta: An Australian Shepherd named Hank. 14 00:01:01,940 --> 00:01:02,660 Jason Oberholtzer: This is true. 15 00:01:02,660 --> 00:01:08,100 Mike Rugnetta: But regardless, I am gonna say retriever. Oh. 16 00:01:08,100 --> 00:01:08,260 Georgia Hampton: You 17 00:01:08,260 --> 00:01:13,615 Jason Oberholtzer: you you are going to be incorrect. I will 18 00:01:13,615 --> 00:01:16,815 say Australian shepherds are rising up the list very quickly. 19 00:01:16,815 --> 00:01:19,375 Hank rules. But I grew up rule. Yeah. 20 00:01:19,535 --> 00:01:20,655 With dachshunds. 21 00:01:20,655 --> 00:01:24,415 Mike Rugnetta: Oh, that's I knew that I should've Yeah. Did. This 22 00:01:24,415 --> 00:01:25,295 is my band. 23 00:01:25,690 --> 00:01:26,490 Georgia Hampton: That's amazing. 24 00:01:26,490 --> 00:01:29,130 Mike Rugnetta: And Jason has told great stories about how 25 00:01:29,130 --> 00:01:31,610 they are tiny little jerks. Well, 26 00:01:31,610 --> 00:01:32,970 Georgia Hampton: yeah. Oh my god. 27 00:01:32,970 --> 00:01:35,130 Jason Oberholtzer: I love wild little bullies. And once you get 28 00:01:35,130 --> 00:01:37,130 into that, it's hard to like other things. 29 00:01:38,090 --> 00:01:41,645 Georgia Hampton: You with just like a fleet of ducks. Oh my 30 00:01:41,645 --> 00:01:42,125 god. 31 00:01:42,525 --> 00:01:43,645 Jason Oberholtzer: My minions. 32 00:01:45,805 --> 00:01:48,125 Mike Rugnetta: Okay. Georgia Hampton, never post producer. A 33 00:01:48,125 --> 00:01:51,165 cat person. Yes. Confirmed. 34 00:01:51,245 --> 00:01:53,165 Respect to his majesty, King Beef. 35 00:01:53,165 --> 00:01:53,405 Hans Buetow: Yes. 36 00:01:53,940 --> 00:01:56,820 Mike Rugnetta: Georgia. I do not know. Have you ever had a dog? 37 00:01:56,820 --> 00:01:58,820 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. I actually did grow up with dogs. 38 00:01:58,820 --> 00:02:01,300 Mike Rugnetta: Okay. So don't tell me what they were. Okay. 39 00:02:01,540 --> 00:02:04,420 I'm gonna guess. Spaniel. 40 00:02:04,980 --> 00:02:07,060 Georgia Hampton: Oh. Very regal. 41 00:02:07,060 --> 00:02:07,540 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. 42 00:02:08,025 --> 00:02:09,065 Georgia Hampton: That's not correct. 43 00:02:10,185 --> 00:02:11,145 Jason Oberholtzer: Over two. 44 00:02:11,545 --> 00:02:14,905 Georgia Hampton: But I would be shocked if you just out of the 45 00:02:14,905 --> 00:02:17,145 gate got mine, which is shipper key. 46 00:02:17,305 --> 00:02:20,025 Mike Rugnetta: Oh, sure. Yeah. The screeching dog. 47 00:02:20,025 --> 00:02:21,865 Georgia Hampton: I like them because they look like little 48 00:02:21,865 --> 00:02:22,505 bats. 49 00:02:22,505 --> 00:02:23,705 Jason Oberholtzer: They do look like bats. 50 00:02:24,330 --> 00:02:28,090 Mike Rugnetta: Hans Vito, never post senior producer. Has a dog. 51 00:02:28,090 --> 00:02:33,050 Yep. A small gray I do not know what Niven is other than he 52 00:02:33,050 --> 00:02:35,370 sorta looks like the end of a mop. 53 00:02:35,690 --> 00:02:38,125 Hans Buetow: Yes. Alright. He's a he's a Shih Tzu Poodle mix. 54 00:02:38,125 --> 00:02:39,885 Shih Tzu. A Shih Okay. 55 00:02:40,525 --> 00:02:49,325 Mike Rugnetta: So he's smart. Sure. Okay. I'm gonna say 56 00:02:49,325 --> 00:02:53,470 favorite breed, Weimaraner. 57 00:02:54,270 --> 00:02:56,750 Hans Buetow: You're not far off. Nice breed. 58 00:02:56,750 --> 00:02:58,670 Mike Rugnetta: See, I've known Hans the longest out of all of 59 00:02:58,670 --> 00:03:00,910 you. So Fair enough. Weimaraner. 60 00:03:00,910 --> 00:03:03,230 Hans Buetow: No. That's interesting. No. Interestingly, 61 00:03:03,230 --> 00:03:04,990 I was just thinking about it because I had a lot of more time 62 00:03:04,990 --> 00:03:07,145 to think than everybody else. Probably my two favorite breeds 63 00:03:07,145 --> 00:03:09,865 are German shorthaired pointer, a GSP Mhmm. 64 00:03:10,265 --> 00:03:12,105 Or a German shepherd. 65 00:03:12,105 --> 00:03:13,065 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. I see. 66 00:03:13,065 --> 00:03:15,065 Hans Buetow: Both both Germans. The guy named Hans loves the 67 00:03:15,065 --> 00:03:15,545 German. 68 00:03:15,705 --> 00:03:17,305 Mike Rugnetta: And you've you've met Jules. Right? 69 00:03:17,305 --> 00:03:18,105 Hans Buetow: Oh, yes. 70 00:03:18,105 --> 00:03:24,180 Jason Oberholtzer: Mike, as the parent of Jules, who is a 71 00:03:24,180 --> 00:03:25,700 muttish sort of German or 72 00:03:26,340 --> 00:03:29,220 Mike Rugnetta: German German What is a Jules? American bully. 73 00:03:29,460 --> 00:03:30,100 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Woah. 74 00:03:30,100 --> 00:03:31,780 Georgia Hampton: Okay. American bully. Yeah. 75 00:03:31,780 --> 00:03:35,540 Mike Rugnetta: A very strange mix. Yeah. That is a very weird 76 00:03:35,540 --> 00:03:35,860 dog. 77 00:03:36,635 --> 00:03:39,035 Jason Oberholtzer: I'm going to guess that your favorite breed 78 00:03:39,035 --> 00:03:41,755 actually is one that you would not have been able to have 79 00:03:41,755 --> 00:03:44,555 because you live in a small apartment or you live in a 80 00:03:44,555 --> 00:03:48,475 normal sized Brooklyn apartment. Yeah. But you like metal shows. 81 00:03:48,475 --> 00:03:49,835 I'm gonna guess Kane Corso. 82 00:03:50,730 --> 00:03:52,170 Georgia Hampton: Woah. I 83 00:03:52,170 --> 00:03:56,410 Mike Rugnetta: have only met one is it Kane Corso? Kane Corso? 84 00:03:56,410 --> 00:04:02,570 I've only ever met one and she was the sweetest, hugest, 85 00:04:02,730 --> 00:04:08,145 floppiest dog in the world. Just like would wanna sit on you and 86 00:04:08,145 --> 00:04:10,305 weighed like a hundred and seventy five pounds. 87 00:04:11,425 --> 00:04:12,385 Jason Oberholtzer: That's I I 88 00:04:13,825 --> 00:04:17,425 Mike Rugnetta: think that my favorite breed is the breed of 89 00:04:17,425 --> 00:04:23,740 our last dog, Jack. He was a a whippet. Yeah. And I did not 90 00:04:23,740 --> 00:04:27,100 know anything about whippets until we got Jack. But ever sit 91 00:04:27,260 --> 00:04:28,620 now now I can pick them out. 92 00:04:28,620 --> 00:04:32,860 Like, know that it's like, you know, a greyhound, but not. And 93 00:04:32,860 --> 00:04:34,885 they are little weirdos 94 00:04:35,205 --> 00:04:35,925 Georgia Hampton: I love that. 95 00:04:35,925 --> 00:04:38,645 Mike Rugnetta: Who can run like 75 miles an hour. Yes. Which is 96 00:04:38,645 --> 00:04:42,085 occasionally harrowing, but always impressive. 97 00:04:42,645 --> 00:04:43,765 Jason Oberholtzer: Jack was the best. 98 00:04:43,765 --> 00:04:46,325 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. He was good. Yeah. And like, even 99 00:04:46,405 --> 00:04:50,070 though they run just at the speed of light outside, when 100 00:04:50,070 --> 00:04:52,550 they're in the house Just flop. Us. 101 00:04:52,550 --> 00:04:56,470 Yeah. And the classic, you know, they fall asleep with all four 102 00:04:56,470 --> 00:05:00,150 legs in the air. Yeah. Yeah. Which is always a good time, you 103 00:05:00,150 --> 00:05:00,390 know? 104 00:05:00,390 --> 00:05:02,790 Georgia Hampton: That's just a dog built to wear a turtleneck. 105 00:05:03,155 --> 00:05:04,275 Hans Buetow: Right? It's true. Yeah. 106 00:05:04,275 --> 00:05:06,515 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Love it. Okay. Well, that's 107 00:05:06,515 --> 00:05:08,035 Mike Rugnetta: the end of the fun. Let's get on to those next. 108 00:05:08,035 --> 00:05:13,075 Let's go. Okay. So we are here to discuss one thing, both 109 00:05:13,075 --> 00:05:17,980 broadly and specifically as it relates to our phones our 110 00:05:17,980 --> 00:05:20,620 computers, our devices, the internet, our lives. 111 00:05:20,700 --> 00:05:24,140 And that is how to not go insane. Or maybe just like how 112 00:05:24,140 --> 00:05:28,540 to maintain some baseline level of sanity in the media and 113 00:05:28,540 --> 00:05:32,940 information environment in which we all live and work, which is 114 00:05:32,315 --> 00:05:36,315 no small task. So what do I mean by all of this? I think this 115 00:05:36,315 --> 00:05:39,675 could mean a bunch of things. Like, the world is really lousy 116 00:05:39,675 --> 00:05:44,970 with evidence that constantly tethering yourself to the world 117 00:05:44,970 --> 00:05:47,050 wide web is bad for you. 118 00:05:47,050 --> 00:05:51,210 It's not good. Yet we all do it. We make a show about it. You 119 00:05:51,210 --> 00:05:54,250 know, it's bad for self image. It's bad for time management. 120 00:05:54,250 --> 00:06:01,775 It causes FOMO. It's the drainer of bank accounts. And, you know 121 00:06:02,255 --> 00:06:05,615 Jason Oberholtzer: The end. The end. See you next week. 122 00:06:05,615 --> 00:06:08,175 Mike Rugnetta: See you next week. Bye, guys. The source of a 123 00:06:08,175 --> 00:06:10,895 lot of overwhelm, so much so that I didn't know how to finish 124 00:06:10,895 --> 00:06:14,780 that sentence. Today, specifically, I wanna focus on 125 00:06:14,780 --> 00:06:17,660 one of those things, which is current events. So that can mean 126 00:06:17,660 --> 00:06:20,460 news, but I think it could also mean, like, things that don't 127 00:06:20,460 --> 00:06:25,420 even necessarily rise to the relatively low bar that is news. 128 00:06:25,420 --> 00:06:29,555 So it's like things happening in town, in your neighborhood, but 129 00:06:29,555 --> 00:06:33,875 then also, yeah, like global and national political events. And 130 00:06:33,875 --> 00:06:38,035 related to that, and the use of the Internet and the feed and 131 00:06:38,035 --> 00:06:42,035 social media and devices, my sense is that the following 132 00:06:42,035 --> 00:06:46,330 things are true. That the first election of Donald Trump, the 133 00:06:46,330 --> 00:06:51,290 chaos that ensued after that, followed then by COVID, had a 134 00:06:51,290 --> 00:06:55,450 kind of, like, two level effect on a lot of people. And I think 135 00:06:55,450 --> 00:06:59,115 that that group includes the members of this team. The first 136 00:06:59,115 --> 00:07:02,075 is it baked our brains a little bit. 137 00:07:02,075 --> 00:07:03,835 Got a little fried. Little brain fried. 138 00:07:03,915 --> 00:07:05,195 Hans Buetow: Lot of nods. Lot of nods. 139 00:07:05,195 --> 00:07:08,075 Mike Rugnetta: Lot of nods. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I I 140 00:07:08,075 --> 00:07:10,715 think that that can have a bunch of different effects that are 141 00:07:10,715 --> 00:07:11,595 different on different days. 142 00:07:12,090 --> 00:07:15,050 Kinda like generalized anxiety, a little bit of emotional 143 00:07:15,050 --> 00:07:17,130 detachment from what goes on in the world, 144 00:07:17,450 --> 00:07:21,530 hyperintellectualization of the problems that we face in the 145 00:07:21,530 --> 00:07:26,795 world. And then second, it forced us to develop skills to 146 00:07:26,795 --> 00:07:33,195 deal with this current onslaught of just pieces of news that by 147 00:07:33,195 --> 00:07:37,195 themselves would be too much to deal with. It's like, you know, 148 00:07:37,195 --> 00:07:40,315 the economy, the climate, public health, law enforcement, 149 00:07:40,315 --> 00:07:43,650 genocide, and now, of course, secret police disappearing your 150 00:07:43,650 --> 00:07:46,130 neighbors and your friends and your family members. It's like, 151 00:07:46,450 --> 00:07:49,170 any one of those things is bad enough, and now every day, it's 152 00:07:49,170 --> 00:07:51,730 all of them. I just wanna flag also that I said we had to 153 00:07:51,730 --> 00:07:54,770 develop skills, and Hans made a face like Hans made a face like 154 00:07:54,770 --> 00:07:56,850 someone shined a bright flashlight in his eyes. 155 00:07:56,850 --> 00:07:59,455 Hans Buetow: The skills is, I mean, I appreciate the 156 00:07:59,455 --> 00:08:03,295 generosity of thinking that that's what I've done. 157 00:08:04,655 --> 00:08:08,255 Mike Rugnetta: I'm assuming because of your continued 158 00:08:08,255 --> 00:08:11,935 presence in the world and the fact that we can have normal 159 00:08:11,935 --> 00:08:16,150 focused conversations that must indicate some level of coping 160 00:08:16,150 --> 00:08:21,350 mechanism. So I did I wanted to talk about what happens at the 161 00:08:21,350 --> 00:08:24,550 intersection of these two things, sort of like baked or 162 00:08:24,550 --> 00:08:29,565 fried, depending upon your snack preparation of choice brain that 163 00:08:29,565 --> 00:08:32,365 has nonetheless, you know, had to figure out how to cope with 164 00:08:32,365 --> 00:08:35,405 the world, and perhaps some of those approaches are better than 165 00:08:35,405 --> 00:08:38,605 others. And I just wanna talk about how it is we do those 166 00:08:38,605 --> 00:08:41,245 things, what our day to day processes are like, if we're 167 00:08:41,245 --> 00:08:43,885 finding them effective, and what it's just like to be on the 168 00:08:43,885 --> 00:08:48,080 Internet at the moment being constantly confronted with this 169 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,720 onslaught of stuff. You guys ready? How does that sound? 170 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:54,960 Georgia Hampton: When is the right time to start crying? 171 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,000 Mike Rugnetta: I mean, honestly, you might wanna just get it out 172 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:58,080 of 173 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,735 Georgia Hampton: the way. Yeah. Pause the recording. 174 00:09:01,695 --> 00:09:04,735 Hans Buetow: Or not. Just keep going. Or not. Just record 175 00:09:04,735 --> 00:09:06,095 through it. That's how I get through. 176 00:09:06,095 --> 00:09:07,375 I record through it. 177 00:09:07,375 --> 00:09:08,095 Georgia Hampton: Oh, god. 178 00:09:11,550 --> 00:09:13,790 Mike Rugnetta: I have a first question, which is a personal 179 00:09:13,790 --> 00:09:17,630 one, but this is a safe space. It's a safe space. Open your 180 00:09:17,630 --> 00:09:20,510 phone. Please go to the settings. Yeah. 181 00:09:20,510 --> 00:09:20,910 I know what 182 00:09:20,910 --> 00:09:23,710 Georgia Hampton: this is going Oh, no. Mike, no. 183 00:09:23,790 --> 00:09:25,525 Jason Oberholtzer: Delete phone. 184 00:09:27,205 --> 00:09:30,165 Mike Rugnetta: Scroll down until you see notifications. 185 00:09:30,405 --> 00:09:30,965 Jason Oberholtzer: Mhmm. 186 00:09:30,965 --> 00:09:34,565 Mike Rugnetta: Sounds and haptics. Mhmm. Focus. Mhmm. 187 00:09:34,565 --> 00:09:35,445 Screen time. 188 00:09:35,445 --> 00:09:36,725 Jason Oberholtzer: No. Yes. 189 00:09:37,285 --> 00:09:40,510 Mike Rugnetta: What's your daily average? I will go first. Minus 190 00:09:40,510 --> 00:09:42,190 two hours and fifty six minutes. 191 00:09:42,590 --> 00:09:44,190 Georgia Hampton: I don't feel like that's that bad. 192 00:09:44,510 --> 00:09:46,990 Hans Buetow: Five hours eighteen minutes. I can explain why, but 193 00:09:46,990 --> 00:09:47,950 I wanna hear yours. 194 00:09:48,190 --> 00:09:51,230 Jason Oberholtzer: I am right there with you. I am at between 195 00:09:51,230 --> 00:09:54,270 five and six hours a day on this device. 196 00:09:54,585 --> 00:09:56,745 Georgia Hampton: I really expected mine to be a lot higher 197 00:09:56,745 --> 00:10:00,185 than this. Minus three hours and twenty eight minutes. 198 00:10:00,425 --> 00:10:02,505 Mike Rugnetta: How does that number feel to all of you? I 199 00:10:02,505 --> 00:10:04,905 feel I have a sense from Georgia. You're Georgia. You're 200 00:10:04,905 --> 00:10:06,585 surprised. I I am. 201 00:10:06,585 --> 00:10:07,705 Hans, what's your caveat? 202 00:10:08,230 --> 00:10:12,870 Hans Buetow: My caveat is that I have a game that I let run with 203 00:10:12,870 --> 00:10:19,430 my phone on most of my workday. Woah. Apparently not because I 204 00:10:19,430 --> 00:10:20,790 work more than five hours a day. 205 00:10:22,775 --> 00:10:23,975 Georgia Hampton: The truth comes out. 206 00:10:23,975 --> 00:10:26,935 Hans Buetow: But I think, like, weekends, I probably I have very 207 00:10:26,935 --> 00:10:30,775 little. But, like, a lot of my actual phone open time is that 208 00:10:30,775 --> 00:10:34,535 game just running in the background. It's four hours also 209 00:10:34,535 --> 00:10:40,640 than me watching Golden Girls when I can't sleep, and just I 210 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,640 put it on so that I can hear it, but I can't see it, and then 211 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,720 that's what gets me to go back to sleep. And so that'll run for 212 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,400 four or five hours straight. 213 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:49,040 Georgia Hampton: Wow. 214 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:54,645 Hans Buetow: So, like, using it, yes. Using it, no. 215 00:10:54,645 --> 00:10:57,765 Georgia Hampton: No. I imagine that out of all of us then, 216 00:10:57,765 --> 00:11:00,805 Hans, you might be at the lowest in terms of tactics. 217 00:11:00,885 --> 00:11:02,965 Hans Buetow: Actually probably am of the most time that I spend 218 00:11:02,965 --> 00:11:03,925 interacting with my phone. 219 00:11:04,370 --> 00:11:07,090 Jason Oberholtzer: I find myself really needing to, like, find 220 00:11:07,090 --> 00:11:11,330 excuses for this, which is, like, doesn't seem like a 221 00:11:11,330 --> 00:11:15,090 healthy reaction to this news. I also find myself thinking that, 222 00:11:15,090 --> 00:11:18,130 like, six hours a day is, like, kind of reasonable and that I 223 00:11:18,130 --> 00:11:22,625 have expected more. I expected someone to come in with like an 224 00:11:22,625 --> 00:11:27,585 eight hours or something like that. My caveats are that I read 225 00:11:27,585 --> 00:11:33,100 my Kindle books on my phone at night and so that adds an hour 226 00:11:33,100 --> 00:11:37,820 plus every day of staring at the phone in bed. I do wonder also 227 00:11:37,820 --> 00:11:40,700 how much of that is like second screening because most of my 228 00:11:40,700 --> 00:11:44,780 work day, it's like on a little stand sitting next to my 229 00:11:44,780 --> 00:11:48,425 keyboard and I'm just, like, responding to things or looking 230 00:11:48,425 --> 00:11:50,185 a thing up or tapping away at it. 231 00:11:50,185 --> 00:11:53,625 So it kind of is a second screen companion for the majority of my 232 00:11:53,625 --> 00:11:54,505 day as well. 233 00:11:54,825 --> 00:11:56,025 Mike Rugnetta: Georgia, how are feeling? 234 00:11:56,105 --> 00:11:58,105 Georgia Hampton: Like like I said, I'm kind of pleasantly 235 00:11:58,105 --> 00:12:02,180 surprised at what mine is, because I was expecting to be 236 00:12:02,180 --> 00:12:06,740 the one who had, you know, eight hours or something. And I I'm 237 00:12:06,740 --> 00:12:09,140 trying to parse why that is. Why it would 238 00:12:09,140 --> 00:12:12,420 Mike Rugnetta: be low? Back in the weeks, is it roughly that 239 00:12:12,420 --> 00:12:13,300 amount every week? 240 00:12:13,825 --> 00:12:16,305 Georgia Hampton: A couple weeks ago, we're at more like six and 241 00:12:16,305 --> 00:12:21,025 a half hours. So there's there's a range. But I think this is 242 00:12:21,025 --> 00:12:25,825 probably because I use my phone really just for social media. 243 00:12:26,540 --> 00:12:29,660 Like, social media, maybe responding to stuff in Slack if 244 00:12:29,660 --> 00:12:34,700 I'm not at my computer. But as I've said before, usually, I 245 00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:36,540 even, like, text from my computer. 246 00:12:37,180 --> 00:12:40,540 So I'd be very I mean, if we added the computer time to this, 247 00:12:40,540 --> 00:12:44,245 I'm sure it would be truly horrific. But, like, I don't 248 00:12:44,245 --> 00:12:48,645 read on a screen. I like that has been, like, a huge rule for 249 00:12:48,645 --> 00:12:52,325 myself is I I don't like reading books that aren't tangible 250 00:12:52,325 --> 00:12:52,965 books. 251 00:12:53,285 --> 00:12:56,870 Mike Rugnetta: I think I spend almost the entirety of the three 252 00:12:56,870 --> 00:13:00,550 hours on my phone reading the news. 253 00:13:00,550 --> 00:13:01,350 Georgia Hampton: Interesting. 254 00:13:01,830 --> 00:13:04,310 Mike Rugnetta: I don't open my phone right when I wake up. I've 255 00:13:04,310 --> 00:13:08,790 learned to not do that. But like, I wake up, have my 256 00:13:08,790 --> 00:13:10,470 morning, you know, like get climb out of bed, we eat 257 00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:12,425 breakfast like she goes to school. Then I sit down and I 258 00:13:12,425 --> 00:13:17,225 drink a coffee and read the news. And that's usually, like, 259 00:13:17,225 --> 00:13:18,745 half an hour, maybe. 260 00:13:19,065 --> 00:13:21,065 Hans Buetow: And when you say that, Mike, read the news, 261 00:13:21,225 --> 00:13:26,105 you're going to individual publications and reading the 262 00:13:26,105 --> 00:13:26,345 paper? 263 00:13:27,570 --> 00:13:29,330 Mike Rugnetta: It's a combination of I'll probably 264 00:13:29,330 --> 00:13:31,810 spend five minutes scrolling through Blue Sky just to see 265 00:13:31,810 --> 00:13:35,650 what's up because that's the best place to get an immediate 266 00:13:35,650 --> 00:13:38,210 idea of, like, what's going on. Yeah. It's like I woke up this 267 00:13:38,210 --> 00:13:41,010 morning and read about the power outage in Spain and Portugal. 268 00:13:41,010 --> 00:13:44,475 Mhmm. Then I go I use Feedly. 269 00:13:44,875 --> 00:13:48,635 It's like a RSS aggregator. And just go literally, often, I will 270 00:13:48,635 --> 00:13:51,275 just look at headlines. Mhmm. On a Monday, it's bad because it 271 00:13:51,275 --> 00:13:54,395 means I probably haven't looked at it maybe since Thursday, so 272 00:13:54,395 --> 00:13:57,890 there's gonna be like a thousand things in the list. But I'll 273 00:13:57,890 --> 00:13:59,650 just scroll through and see if there's anything interesting to 274 00:13:59,650 --> 00:14:00,130 see. 275 00:14:00,290 --> 00:14:02,690 I'll go to work. I'll probably spend some portion of the day 276 00:14:02,690 --> 00:14:06,530 looking at my phone while I'm away from my desk. So it's like 277 00:14:06,530 --> 00:14:09,170 while I'm going to get lunch, I'll, like, keep up on Slack and 278 00:14:09,170 --> 00:14:14,575 stuff. And then at night, it's probably an additional half an 279 00:14:14,575 --> 00:14:17,855 hour of seeing what has happened during the day, and then another 280 00:14:17,855 --> 00:14:22,335 hour of probably just looking at social media in the cracks in 281 00:14:22,335 --> 00:14:24,790 other things. I'm curious. 282 00:14:24,790 --> 00:14:30,230 So I'm curious. Do any of you take proactive measures to limit 283 00:14:30,230 --> 00:14:34,870 the amount of time that you look at any screen, whether it's, you 284 00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:38,275 know, the one that's in your pocket or the one that's on your 285 00:14:38,275 --> 00:14:42,435 desk that you, you know, use for work, I assume. Is there any 286 00:14:42,435 --> 00:14:47,955 sort of strategy that you have or even a desire to limit your 287 00:14:47,955 --> 00:14:48,915 interaction with those things? 288 00:14:50,020 --> 00:14:54,340 Jason Oberholtzer: So I don't currently have any stop points 289 00:14:54,340 --> 00:14:58,100 in place. And if I look at my phone also has my old devices. 290 00:14:58,100 --> 00:15:01,540 It connects to all of my Apple things. So that includes an iPad 291 00:15:01,540 --> 00:15:05,185 I use for, you know, like putting up a recipe while I'm 292 00:15:05,185 --> 00:15:08,305 cooking and various other, like, watching a video of something, 293 00:15:08,305 --> 00:15:12,785 and this laptop that I do my work on. And that tends to clock 294 00:15:12,785 --> 00:15:17,310 in between all devices at, like, ten hours a day, it looks like 295 00:15:17,310 --> 00:15:18,830 across the various weeks. 296 00:15:19,230 --> 00:15:22,830 So that's, like, the full workday plus some time around 297 00:15:22,830 --> 00:15:23,550 the edges 298 00:15:23,870 --> 00:15:24,110 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. 299 00:15:24,350 --> 00:15:27,390 Jason Oberholtzer: Of staring at one screen or another. So this 300 00:15:27,390 --> 00:15:30,750 both seems to me like too much time to be staring at screens 301 00:15:31,135 --> 00:15:34,255 and less time than I would expect considering that almost 302 00:15:34,255 --> 00:15:37,855 everything I do interacts with a screen in some way. 303 00:15:37,855 --> 00:15:40,575 Mike Rugnetta: I had basically the exact same reaction. I was 304 00:15:40,575 --> 00:15:45,130 like, this is like Yeah. That's too much, but also, I'm doing 305 00:15:45,130 --> 00:15:48,890 pretty good. Yeah. Because there's really 306 00:15:48,890 --> 00:15:50,570 Jason Oberholtzer: not an activity that it doesn't work 307 00:15:50,570 --> 00:15:53,610 its way into. Like, I Yeah. Go out and I will garden, and I'll 308 00:15:53,610 --> 00:15:56,330 bring out picture of this and try to, like, figure out what a 309 00:15:56,330 --> 00:15:59,345 plant is or if this plant looks healthy, or I'll look up how I'm 310 00:15:59,345 --> 00:16:02,785 supposed to prune this thing, or I'm, like, changing the song 311 00:16:02,785 --> 00:16:06,225 that's playing, you know, like, working on a shed. I'm looking 312 00:16:06,225 --> 00:16:09,825 up, like, how do you use this tool? Like, whatever the thing 313 00:16:09,825 --> 00:16:12,465 is that I'm doing, like, I'm always referencing this thing. 314 00:16:12,390 --> 00:16:14,630 I'm always using it. When I'm driving, I'm using it for 315 00:16:14,630 --> 00:16:17,510 navigation. Like, there is no activity that I have really set 316 00:16:17,510 --> 00:16:21,750 aside to be like, the phone does not touch this. Even like 317 00:16:21,750 --> 00:16:25,030 reading. When I'm reading a book, I like to like look up 318 00:16:25,030 --> 00:16:28,095 definitions or, like, look up people or, like, things like 319 00:16:28,095 --> 00:16:28,335 that. 320 00:16:28,335 --> 00:16:30,975 It's always, like, possibly there to do some further 321 00:16:31,295 --> 00:16:34,575 research while I'm reading something. So I really have no 322 00:16:34,575 --> 00:16:38,415 checkpoints built in. Absolutely nothing between me and using 323 00:16:38,415 --> 00:16:42,460 this whenever I want to, however I want to. And that feels bad. 324 00:16:43,100 --> 00:16:45,100 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. I mean, in preparation for this 325 00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:47,340 conversation, I was kind of paying attention to the way I 326 00:16:47,340 --> 00:16:49,900 interact, especially with my social feeds. Because like I 327 00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:53,495 said, I I use my phone largely just for that, for, like, 328 00:16:53,495 --> 00:16:56,695 Instagram, TikTok. When I was going through the breakdown of 329 00:16:56,695 --> 00:17:01,255 where I'm looking most, it is overwhelmingly Instagram and 330 00:17:01,255 --> 00:17:07,910 TikTok. And I'm kind of like Jason in that I feel like I am 331 00:17:07,910 --> 00:17:12,710 desperate to have more of a structure around the way and the 332 00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:15,830 degree to which I'm engaging with my phone. 333 00:17:16,310 --> 00:17:21,110 Because so much, especially of news that I receive, apart from 334 00:17:21,375 --> 00:17:25,375 if I intentionally go and read articles, go to the New York 335 00:17:25,375 --> 00:17:30,415 Times app, what have you, is, like, on TikTok being just 336 00:17:30,415 --> 00:17:35,535 catapulted at me at random. And half of it isn't even really 337 00:17:36,410 --> 00:17:40,410 news per se. It's someone seeing a headline and assuming that, 338 00:17:40,410 --> 00:17:43,770 you know, a law being proposed means that it is into effect 339 00:17:43,770 --> 00:17:48,250 right now and, like, scaring everybody off. This is a time. 340 00:17:48,250 --> 00:17:50,495 Mike Rugnetta: This is another segment for another time. I 341 00:17:50,495 --> 00:17:54,895 think we have to reckon with how everyone on TikTok is an idiot. 342 00:17:55,055 --> 00:17:55,935 Oh, well, 343 00:17:57,535 --> 00:17:59,455 Georgia Hampton: it's everyone on TikTok wants to be like a 344 00:17:59,455 --> 00:18:03,055 breaking news journalist, but without, you know, all the pesky 345 00:18:04,230 --> 00:18:07,830 Standards. Principles. Yeah. Breaks. Codes of conduct. 346 00:18:07,830 --> 00:18:12,550 Like, you know, fact checking. Yeah. And and it is something 347 00:18:12,550 --> 00:18:20,815 that is just so mentally destructive to me. Because 348 00:18:21,295 --> 00:18:25,135 TikTok, I obviously use just for fun. I use it for work 349 00:18:25,135 --> 00:18:26,015 sometimes. 350 00:18:26,175 --> 00:18:30,335 Like, it's a thing that I can share stuff with friends. You 351 00:18:30,335 --> 00:18:35,740 know, it's a social platform. But I've had to, like, grab my 352 00:18:35,740 --> 00:18:39,980 algorithm by the nape of the neck and be like, no. Yeah. 353 00:18:40,700 --> 00:18:41,340 Absolutely not. 354 00:18:41,340 --> 00:18:44,380 And, like, flick it on its nose and be like, stop it. We're 355 00:18:44,380 --> 00:18:48,545 going to watch these ten minute long videos about art history, 356 00:18:48,945 --> 00:18:51,025 and you will know that is what I want. 357 00:18:51,025 --> 00:18:53,265 Mike Rugnetta: I only wanna see clips of the blacklist, and 358 00:18:53,265 --> 00:18:53,985 that's it. 359 00:18:56,145 --> 00:18:58,625 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Like, I've had to very intentionally 360 00:18:59,780 --> 00:19:04,740 wrangle my algorithm to be like, stop it, unless it's, you know, 361 00:19:04,740 --> 00:19:10,340 CNN, PBS have TikTok accounts. So, like, okay. Sure. Yes. 362 00:19:10,340 --> 00:19:14,405 I will I will consume that. But, like, otherwise, I'm like, no. 363 00:19:14,405 --> 00:19:16,725 Show me this, you know, experimental animation. Like, 364 00:19:16,725 --> 00:19:20,965 we're going to use this app as, like, the fun art and funny app. 365 00:19:20,965 --> 00:19:22,405 Like, stop it. 366 00:19:22,725 --> 00:19:26,085 Hans Buetow: This whole experience is, to me, revealing 367 00:19:26,085 --> 00:19:30,920 this interesting tension between how we use our screens and that 368 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,800 not all screen time is equal screen time. Because, Jason, 369 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,520 when you're saying, like, oh, oh, I use it to look something 370 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,920 up, or I use it to, like, fact check something to myself, or, 371 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,400 like, wait. What is this plan? Or how do I do this thing? That 372 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,975 to me feels like one corner of the Internet or usage of a 373 00:19:44,975 --> 00:19:45,535 screen. 374 00:19:45,775 --> 00:19:48,655 Then there's the entertainment corner of this of the usage. 375 00:19:48,655 --> 00:19:53,055 Then there's the algorithmic usage, which could kinda swerve 376 00:19:53,055 --> 00:19:56,015 into any of those, but you're just like, the point of that is 377 00:19:56,015 --> 00:19:59,720 just to sit in the stream and be like tubing on a river. Mhmm. It 378 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:01,800 just takes you where you're going. Mhmm. 379 00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:04,920 And so, like, I don't know that all of those are are equal, or 380 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,040 me spending all this time with this, like, my my phone is on, 381 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,535 and I technically have three screens up all the time, but I'm 382 00:20:11,535 --> 00:20:13,295 not using them in that way. 383 00:20:13,935 --> 00:20:16,175 Mike Rugnetta: It strikes me that there is a difference 384 00:20:16,175 --> 00:20:19,695 between something like going out into the garden with your iPad 385 00:20:19,695 --> 00:20:24,095 to problem solve and having to train the algorithm to show you 386 00:20:24,095 --> 00:20:27,270 the things that you want. Or in my case, like, I have a lot of 387 00:20:27,270 --> 00:20:29,910 systems where it's like, my phone reminds me every fifteen 388 00:20:29,910 --> 00:20:32,870 minutes that I've been looking for fifteen minutes. And so I 389 00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:36,870 actively choose every fifteen minutes to continue, like, 390 00:20:36,870 --> 00:20:40,025 opting in. And, you know, sometimes that works better than 391 00:20:40,025 --> 00:20:43,145 others, but I found it to be a really effective way to measure 392 00:20:43,145 --> 00:20:47,225 my usage of the phone. But it feels like there's this 393 00:20:47,225 --> 00:20:51,785 difference between going into the world with the Internet and 394 00:20:51,510 --> 00:20:53,830 the Internet bringing the world to you. 395 00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:57,750 Mhmm. And the problem with the second one is that it's very 396 00:20:57,750 --> 00:21:03,430 hard to tell technology what to bring you, especially now 397 00:21:03,430 --> 00:21:07,385 because it is not designed to listen. Mhmm. It just sort of 398 00:21:07,385 --> 00:21:10,505 brings you whatever you interact with the most, and that might be 399 00:21:10,505 --> 00:21:12,425 the things that you also hate the most. 400 00:21:12,745 --> 00:21:15,865 Georgia Hampton: Oh my god. Constantly, I'm having this, 401 00:21:15,865 --> 00:21:18,025 like, fight with TikTok specifically. 402 00:21:18,025 --> 00:21:19,385 Mike Rugnetta: Because you're also fighting with yourself. 403 00:21:19,500 --> 00:21:21,100 Right? I know. And same thing. 404 00:21:21,100 --> 00:21:22,620 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. That is around the time 405 00:21:22,860 --> 00:21:23,900 Mike Rugnetta: Segment again. 406 00:21:24,140 --> 00:21:26,700 Georgia Hampton: That is also around the time where I'm like, 407 00:21:27,020 --> 00:21:30,300 maybe we're done right now. Maybe we maybe we're done. Maybe 408 00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:33,260 we're gonna walk. Maybe we do something else. But I wanna I 409 00:21:33,260 --> 00:21:37,425 wanna come back, Mike, to this the the widgets and things that 410 00:21:37,425 --> 00:21:40,705 you can add to your phone that tell you, like you said, hey, 411 00:21:40,705 --> 00:21:42,945 you've been looking at your screen for fifteen minutes. 412 00:21:43,025 --> 00:21:48,385 I have never used those, and I have a weird gun shyness around 413 00:21:48,385 --> 00:21:53,350 them. Like, I feel like I don't want to have to use it, but I 414 00:21:53,350 --> 00:21:55,030 feel like it would be helpful. 415 00:21:55,350 --> 00:21:56,630 Mike Rugnetta: It rules. It's great. 416 00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:58,790 Jason Oberholtzer: So, Georgia, why do you think that you have 417 00:21:58,790 --> 00:22:02,070 this reticence to embrace something you're interested in? 418 00:22:02,710 --> 00:22:05,510 Georgia Hampton: I don't know. I feel like maybe it's because I 419 00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:09,245 want to force myself to do that myself. 420 00:22:09,565 --> 00:22:12,845 Jason Oberholtzer: As in, like, part of the way that you imagine 421 00:22:12,925 --> 00:22:16,925 Georgia is as somebody who can say no to this, or that you 422 00:22:16,925 --> 00:22:19,565 think that being able to make yourself do it will actually 423 00:22:19,565 --> 00:22:22,285 give you the skill to resist it in a way that depending on a 424 00:22:22,285 --> 00:22:22,925 timer won't. 425 00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:25,350 Georgia Hampton: I feel like a little bit of both. I also 426 00:22:25,590 --> 00:22:28,470 sometimes I can this is maybe a personal problem. I feel like 427 00:22:28,470 --> 00:22:37,295 sometimes I I get a little weird with mandated boundaries like 428 00:22:37,295 --> 00:22:41,855 that, where I'm like, I wanna do it, but I I wanna do it, like, 429 00:22:41,855 --> 00:22:44,255 in my own way at at my own interval. 430 00:22:44,335 --> 00:22:46,015 Mike Rugnetta: Georgia, I think an important thing to remember 431 00:22:46,015 --> 00:22:49,630 is that you are doing it. Right? Like Mhmm. If you are using the 432 00:22:49,630 --> 00:22:53,150 screen time rules to remind you every fifteen minutes that it's 433 00:22:53,150 --> 00:22:56,350 been fifteen minutes, that's past Georgia talking to present 434 00:22:56,350 --> 00:23:00,830 Georgia. And like all rules, they are made by man. 435 00:23:01,395 --> 00:23:07,795 Wow. You know? They're made by man. So I wanna ask, with the 436 00:23:07,795 --> 00:23:12,195 world the way that it is, which is to say varying degrees of, 437 00:23:12,195 --> 00:23:21,330 like, absurd, scary, dangerous, chaotic, What do you all go and 438 00:23:21,330 --> 00:23:24,050 I think we've answered this to certain degrees, but I wanna 439 00:23:24,050 --> 00:23:28,210 talk about it really explicitly. What do you all go to the feed 440 00:23:28,625 --> 00:23:29,265 for? 441 00:23:30,385 --> 00:23:33,105 Jason Oberholtzer: I very specifically go to the feed, 442 00:23:33,585 --> 00:23:38,225 broadly speaking, and the only thing that is called the feed 443 00:23:38,225 --> 00:23:41,745 that I take out of the equation here is blue sky. To me, the 444 00:23:41,745 --> 00:23:42,625 feed is everything else. 445 00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:45,900 Mike Rugnetta: Interesting. Interesting. Okay. Okay. 446 00:23:46,140 --> 00:23:49,820 Jason Oberholtzer: Everything else is the feed. The internet 447 00:23:49,820 --> 00:23:53,340 math problem working out what it wants to give me when I walk 448 00:23:53,340 --> 00:23:56,300 into its sites. That to me is the feed. 449 00:23:56,300 --> 00:23:56,540 Mike Rugnetta: K. 450 00:23:56,540 --> 00:23:59,755 Jason Oberholtzer: I go there to have fun and I'd never do. 451 00:23:59,995 --> 00:24:03,755 Georgia Hampton: Yes. Jason, you and I are the same. Relatable. 452 00:24:04,235 --> 00:24:06,075 Yeah. Yeah. 453 00:24:06,075 --> 00:24:10,555 I I think of it kind of as I go to put my brain on autopilot for 454 00:24:10,555 --> 00:24:16,260 a little bit, like, to just kind of float around. But that also 455 00:24:16,340 --> 00:24:19,700 kind of isn't what happens because, as I said, I am 456 00:24:19,700 --> 00:24:25,460 fighting with TikTok constantly. So it's like, I will have fun by 457 00:24:25,460 --> 00:24:26,985 the grace of God. Like 458 00:24:27,465 --> 00:24:29,705 Mike Rugnetta: But, Georgia, you also did say that it's like, you 459 00:24:29,705 --> 00:24:34,025 know, if the algorithm wants to show you CNN or PBS, like, 460 00:24:34,025 --> 00:24:34,985 that's fine. 461 00:24:35,465 --> 00:24:38,265 Georgia Hampton: Yes. It it I will say sometimes it depends on 462 00:24:38,265 --> 00:24:40,745 what time of day it is. Interesting. If I'm trying to go 463 00:24:40,745 --> 00:24:43,160 to sleep and I'm just on TikTok 464 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:44,680 Mike Rugnetta: No Anderson Cooper. 465 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,520 Georgia Hampton: No. I'm Anderson, it's Betty Bye time. 466 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:49,480 Mike Rugnetta: Stay out of my house. 467 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:50,520 Georgia Hampton: Get out of here. 468 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,040 Jason Oberholtzer: Boop him on the nose. 469 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:53,080 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Bop. 470 00:24:53,575 --> 00:24:55,255 Hans Buetow: Jason, it's so interesting to hear you say that 471 00:24:55,255 --> 00:24:57,495 blue sky is not the feed, because to me, sky is the only 472 00:24:57,495 --> 00:25:01,495 feed. No. That's not true. That's not true. It's one of the 473 00:25:01,495 --> 00:25:05,815 only feeds that I regularly look at and use, and I very much 474 00:25:05,815 --> 00:25:07,975 consider that a feed and use it for that feediness. 475 00:25:08,310 --> 00:25:10,310 Kinda like what Mike is saying, where it's like it's a 476 00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:16,950 bellwether, albeit I'm realizing very incomplete, very partial of 477 00:25:16,950 --> 00:25:20,310 what is happening, so that I can quickly because the only other 478 00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:23,195 way that I can really get a sense of things is push 479 00:25:23,195 --> 00:25:27,595 notifications from various newspapers that come to my phone 480 00:25:27,595 --> 00:25:29,115 when something happens, and that's 481 00:25:29,195 --> 00:25:29,355 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. 482 00:25:29,435 --> 00:25:32,075 Hans Buetow: Generally how I stay abreast of, like, oh, these 483 00:25:32,075 --> 00:25:34,635 are the three things that are happening in the conversation 484 00:25:34,635 --> 00:25:35,275 today. 485 00:25:35,435 --> 00:25:38,850 Mike Rugnetta: Pause. Everybody pick up your phone again. K. 486 00:25:38,930 --> 00:25:41,730 Open the same page. 487 00:25:41,730 --> 00:25:43,810 Jason Oberholtzer: This always goes well. Yeah. 488 00:25:44,370 --> 00:25:46,050 Mike Rugnetta: How many daily notifications? 489 00:25:46,130 --> 00:25:49,010 Hans Buetow: Holy sharks. Well, it's fewer than I remember. 490 00:25:49,010 --> 00:25:50,770 Jason Oberholtzer: Around 250 a day. 491 00:25:51,385 --> 00:25:54,425 Hans Buetow: It looks like weekdays, I tend to get it looks 492 00:25:54,425 --> 00:25:58,105 like from the few days that I can get data on, 50 to 60 a day. 493 00:25:58,505 --> 00:26:00,825 Mike Rugnetta: Hans, that's very reasonable. Yeah. 494 00:26:01,545 --> 00:26:04,905 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Mine's I'm looking at yesterday's since 495 00:26:04,905 --> 00:26:08,560 today wouldn't really be enough. 93? 496 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,600 Mike Rugnetta: Mine's an average of a 70. So it seems like we've 497 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,480 maintained our rough order here. Yeah. 498 00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:17,120 Hans Buetow: Mike, how many pickups do you have 499 00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:17,600 Jason Oberholtzer: per day? 500 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,120 Mike Rugnetta: That's actually a good question. Let me look. 501 00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:20,720 Hans Buetow: I'm pretty consistent hovering between 502 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:21,440 seventy and eighty. 503 00:26:21,805 --> 00:26:23,085 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. I'm at 84. 504 00:26:23,325 --> 00:26:24,205 Mike Rugnetta: 80 eight. 505 00:26:24,285 --> 00:26:26,525 Hans Buetow: Okay. That's interesting. So that means that 506 00:26:26,525 --> 00:26:29,325 you're spending more time on each of the individual pickups. 507 00:26:29,485 --> 00:26:34,125 Mike Rugnetta: I also my most the thing that I pick up my 508 00:26:34,125 --> 00:26:38,150 phone to use the most often because it says it's like you 509 00:26:38,150 --> 00:26:41,910 picked up your phone and here's the app that you opened. The 510 00:26:41,910 --> 00:26:45,270 most used is Clem's baby camera. 511 00:26:45,430 --> 00:26:46,710 Hans Buetow: Oh, this makes a 512 00:26:46,710 --> 00:26:47,190 Georgia Hampton: ton of sense. 513 00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:47,750 Mike Rugnetta: To check on 514 00:26:47,750 --> 00:26:49,725 Hans Buetow: her during sleep. It's a utility thing, though. 515 00:26:49,725 --> 00:26:51,965 It's just like Jason's gardening. You know? It's like 516 00:26:51,965 --> 00:26:52,925 using a tool. 517 00:26:52,925 --> 00:26:53,325 Right? 518 00:26:53,325 --> 00:26:58,925 Georgia Hampton: I feel like I'm I'm the problem. So I'm going 519 00:26:58,925 --> 00:27:03,210 through days, and it's it's more than 84, actually. It's like a 520 00:27:03,210 --> 00:27:05,530 41 or a hundred five. 521 00:27:05,690 --> 00:27:07,530 Jason Oberholtzer: And the first thing you do every time you pick 522 00:27:07,530 --> 00:27:11,050 up your phone is hop on signal and chat with Marc Andreessen? 523 00:27:12,410 --> 00:27:12,730 Course. 524 00:27:12,730 --> 00:27:13,450 Hans Buetow: Oh, man. 525 00:27:14,730 --> 00:27:17,695 Georgia Hampton: No. It's always Instagram. Always Instagram or 526 00:27:17,695 --> 00:27:19,455 messages, but usually Instagram. 527 00:27:19,455 --> 00:27:22,255 Mike Rugnetta: Okay. Unpause. I just wanted to know that in the 528 00:27:22,255 --> 00:27:25,775 context of Hans's point about the phone being the thing that 529 00:27:25,775 --> 00:27:29,135 alerts you to things happening. Yeah. And I don't get any of 530 00:27:29,135 --> 00:27:29,615 those alerts. 531 00:27:30,580 --> 00:27:35,700 Molly works her job is such that she has to stay abreast of, 532 00:27:35,700 --> 00:27:38,500 like, current events. It's very important for what she does 533 00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:40,740 that, like, when there's breaking news, she knows what it 534 00:27:40,740 --> 00:27:45,875 is. Yep. And her phone is just like, constant. I learn more 535 00:27:45,875 --> 00:27:50,035 about the news from being near Molly's phone than anything 536 00:27:50,035 --> 00:27:50,675 else. 537 00:27:50,675 --> 00:27:54,035 Yeah. So, anyways, I just wanted to I wanted to contextualize 538 00:27:54,035 --> 00:27:56,595 that. So, Hans, keep making your point that you were making about 539 00:27:56,850 --> 00:28:00,770 blue sky being the place that you go to learn about what 540 00:28:00,770 --> 00:28:02,690 happens in the world, but it's incomplete. 541 00:28:02,690 --> 00:28:04,850 Hans Buetow: It's very incomplete. You know, Ryan 542 00:28:04,850 --> 00:28:10,210 Broderick probably in in April had a reaction to the hands off, 543 00:28:10,210 --> 00:28:14,425 the big first hands off protest that was happening. He came back 544 00:28:14,425 --> 00:28:17,225 on Monday for garbage day and had this whole thing being like, 545 00:28:17,705 --> 00:28:20,425 did you all know that a protest was happening over the weekend? 546 00:28:20,425 --> 00:28:24,745 Mhmm. He's like, I am wildly online both professionally and 547 00:28:24,745 --> 00:28:27,785 personally, and I didn't know it was happening. 548 00:28:28,050 --> 00:28:30,370 And he got a lot of people writing in to him. He's like, 549 00:28:30,370 --> 00:28:33,730 tell me if you knew. And people were like, it was mixed bag. It 550 00:28:33,730 --> 00:28:35,490 was a total mixed bag. 551 00:28:35,730 --> 00:28:39,650 Mike Rugnetta: This exact phenomenon is why I wanted to 552 00:28:39,650 --> 00:28:44,925 have this conversation. Yeah. This exact thing. It's real. 553 00:28:44,925 --> 00:28:45,405 Right? 554 00:28:45,405 --> 00:28:48,045 It's real. It's real. And I don't think we need to talk 555 00:28:48,045 --> 00:28:50,365 about it directly because Ryan did a really good job with it, 556 00:28:50,365 --> 00:28:54,525 but I think the disconnect is significant. Because the the 557 00:28:54,525 --> 00:28:59,560 next thing I wanna ask is, ever since I'm gonna say 2014, there 558 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:06,920 has been a broad societal anxiety in in our shared society 559 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,240 about using the Internet and social media and whatever 560 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,315 whatever, you know, using current information 561 00:29:14,315 --> 00:29:17,835 technologies, contemporary information technologies to stay 562 00:29:17,835 --> 00:29:23,435 informed. I don't wanna ask, because I feel like it's we've 563 00:29:23,515 --> 00:29:27,915 spilled an ocean of ink on it, how you stay informed. 564 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:34,760 But I wanna know from each of you, what even is staying 565 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:40,200 informed? What the fuck does that mean? Yeah. Hans, you used 566 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,880 to work at The Daily. Yeah. 567 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:42,680 Hans Buetow: Hans, you 568 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:48,615 Georgia Hampton: wanna take the floor? Hans. Please. You 569 00:29:48,615 --> 00:29:51,095 Mike Rugnetta: call Mike real quick? Can you get my moral Get 570 00:29:51,575 --> 00:29:53,015 Georgia Hampton: Mike on this one. 571 00:29:53,095 --> 00:29:53,495 Hans Buetow: Okay. So 572 00:29:53,495 --> 00:29:55,335 Mike Rugnetta: first, just tell him to post his location. I only 573 00:29:55,335 --> 00:29:55,815 wanna talk. So 574 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,040 Hans Buetow: I think this is a very interesting like, you can 575 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,680 take that as an analogy. Right? Like, there's this fire hose of 576 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,280 things that are happening. But if we so if we look at the 577 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:04,840 daily. Right? 578 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,840 And anyone who actually is currently working on the daily 579 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,480 and listening to this, I love you. I'm sorry if I get this 580 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,560 wrong, and you have a totally different impression of how this 581 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,605 works. But some of the lessons I think we can 582 00:30:13,765 --> 00:30:14,725 Mike Rugnetta: since you've a changed. 583 00:30:14,725 --> 00:30:16,085 Hans Buetow: Things have absolutely changed since I've 584 00:30:16,085 --> 00:30:18,725 been a part of it. But one of the things that I think are 585 00:30:18,725 --> 00:30:22,405 notable about The Daily is The Daily is 45 people working on 586 00:30:22,405 --> 00:30:27,920 it. Cool. And they have a daily meeting where everybody comes in 587 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,680 and pitches. So no one has the responsibility of understanding 588 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:32,800 what the news is. 589 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,640 Everybody has limited understanding of their corner of 590 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,255 the news, and then there has a system of triaging up what news 591 00:30:40,255 --> 00:30:42,895 is most important. They go to the 09:00 meeting in the 592 00:30:42,895 --> 00:30:45,455 morning, and all of the editors of all of the desks all sit 593 00:30:45,455 --> 00:30:49,295 together, and your your news editor, your top top person, 594 00:30:49,650 --> 00:30:52,050 calls around. Alright. National desk. What's the most important 595 00:30:52,050 --> 00:30:52,290 stuff? 596 00:30:52,290 --> 00:30:54,450 And then the national editor says, alright. Today, we're 597 00:30:54,450 --> 00:30:56,690 following this, and this, and this. Okay. Next. And that 598 00:30:56,690 --> 00:30:58,850 happens every day at 09:00 and every day at 04:15. 599 00:30:59,090 --> 00:31:01,810 It happens every single day. Every single day. Every single 600 00:31:01,810 --> 00:31:04,405 day. And you go to that to find out what's the coverage. And 601 00:31:04,405 --> 00:31:07,045 that meeting, because it's New York Times, actually sets the 602 00:31:07,045 --> 00:31:10,085 coverage for a lot of other publications around the world. 603 00:31:10,805 --> 00:31:14,325 So you already have somebody who's making these decisions, 604 00:31:14,325 --> 00:31:17,520 these editorial decisions. And then you have people who are 605 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,600 assigned to different desks who are working on The Daily, and 606 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,840 they're grabbing, you know, they're I'm I work with the 607 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:23,680 international desk. That's mostly so they're going to the 608 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,680 international desk meeting, and you have different people who 609 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,040 are going to the culture desk meeting, you have different 610 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,025 people who are going to the metro meeting. And everybody's 611 00:31:31,025 --> 00:31:33,345 specializing down so that when you aggregate the knowledge of 612 00:31:33,345 --> 00:31:37,425 45 people and then present it through one person or two 613 00:31:37,425 --> 00:31:40,785 people, suddenly it looks like that person knows everything, 614 00:31:40,785 --> 00:31:44,320 but that's actually not accurate. And I think that sort 615 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,840 of specialization that no one can know any one thing is a 616 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:52,320 really powerful thing that gets masked. 617 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,840 Mike Rugnetta: And it's all it's also like it feels like it 618 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,655 should be a funnel, but it's not. It's actually like 619 00:32:00,055 --> 00:32:05,735 decreasingly, like tubes of decreasing size. Yeah. So that 620 00:32:05,735 --> 00:32:10,580 as things are pushed through, the edges get shaved off. Like, 621 00:32:10,580 --> 00:32:13,860 at every successive step, you just lose a little bit off the 622 00:32:13,860 --> 00:32:14,420 side. 623 00:32:14,420 --> 00:32:16,100 Georgia Hampton: Well, the Internet is a series of tubes. 624 00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:19,540 Mike Rugnetta: Oh, there it is. We did. Yeah. Just shaving off 625 00:32:19,540 --> 00:32:21,300 the edges of every story that goes through. 626 00:32:21,875 --> 00:32:24,035 Georgia Hampton: But, I mean, this is such a perfect example 627 00:32:24,035 --> 00:32:27,395 of something that, again, has been written about endlessly 628 00:32:27,395 --> 00:32:29,955 from so many different perspectives, which is the hyper 629 00:32:29,955 --> 00:32:33,795 isolation, the hyper individualization of your 630 00:32:33,795 --> 00:32:39,770 experience online, which, of course, involves the perceived 631 00:32:39,770 --> 00:32:44,730 responsibility of understanding the news, of consuming the news, 632 00:32:44,730 --> 00:32:48,090 of interacting with the news, which I think can easily lead to 633 00:32:48,090 --> 00:32:53,375 a paralysis and a lack of engagement with news in a 634 00:32:53,375 --> 00:32:56,655 meaningful way to the point where you are a lot of people 635 00:32:56,655 --> 00:33:00,975 are just kind of on TikTok and having things, like, lobbed at 636 00:33:00,975 --> 00:33:04,655 them, which some of which might be reputable and some of which 637 00:33:04,655 --> 00:33:08,210 might not, but you're not doing anything. 638 00:33:08,210 --> 00:33:11,090 Mike Rugnetta: So I think, like, that's maybe the heart of my 639 00:33:11,090 --> 00:33:16,850 question is, like, is that imagined person informed? Mhmm. 640 00:33:16,850 --> 00:33:19,410 Jason Oberholtzer: So I think, like, in some ways, we are the 641 00:33:19,410 --> 00:33:21,170 Michael Barbaros of our own lives. 642 00:33:21,545 --> 00:33:25,705 Georgia Hampton: Wow. Each of us has a Michael Barbaro within us. 643 00:33:25,705 --> 00:33:26,345 Jason? 644 00:33:26,345 --> 00:33:27,865 Mike Rugnetta: That hurts. 645 00:33:29,145 --> 00:33:31,145 Georgia Hampton: He's in there, and he's trying to get out. 646 00:33:32,025 --> 00:33:36,310 Jason Oberholtzer: We all have 45 people, more or less, trying 647 00:33:36,310 --> 00:33:38,790 to tell us what the most important thing from their part 648 00:33:38,790 --> 00:33:42,310 of the world is. And at some point, we are asked by somebody 649 00:33:42,550 --> 00:33:46,805 what's going on, and we open our mouth and just say, tariffs are 650 00:33:46,805 --> 00:33:47,445 wild, 651 00:33:49,285 --> 00:33:50,565 Mike Rugnetta: Literally. We 652 00:33:50,565 --> 00:33:53,045 Jason Oberholtzer: just do our best to rise to the occasion and 653 00:33:53,045 --> 00:33:56,405 say, I'm informed. Here's what I know. 654 00:33:56,405 --> 00:33:59,620 Mike Rugnetta: I open my mouth and like the mother xenomorph 655 00:33:59,620 --> 00:34:02,980 from alien Oh my god. A Michael Barbaro head comes at us. 656 00:34:02,980 --> 00:34:04,420 Georgia Hampton: Tiny little mouth. 657 00:34:06,980 --> 00:34:08,660 Jason Oberholtzer: I think the more we've been asked to care 658 00:34:08,660 --> 00:34:11,140 about the veracity of information, the more obvious it 659 00:34:11,140 --> 00:34:15,715 is that there is no veracity of information. We are all just a 660 00:34:15,715 --> 00:34:20,275 part of a moving set of conduits doing our best to push forward 661 00:34:20,275 --> 00:34:23,555 the things that we think are most true at any given moment 662 00:34:23,795 --> 00:34:27,155 and constructing the worldviews of others by being some of their 663 00:34:27,155 --> 00:34:29,475 producers for their personal Michael Barbaros. 664 00:34:30,250 --> 00:34:32,970 Georgia Hampton: Well, this is also a part of the problem, at 665 00:34:32,970 --> 00:34:39,610 least from my experience, which is that if you don't have the 666 00:34:39,610 --> 00:34:43,715 preexisting understanding that you cannot engage with every 667 00:34:43,715 --> 00:34:47,555 single kind of news at the same level of intensity all the time 668 00:34:47,555 --> 00:34:52,275 forever. If you don't have that understanding, like, of course, 669 00:34:52,275 --> 00:34:54,035 you're going to get online and be like, 670 00:34:54,515 --> 00:34:57,235 Mike Rugnetta: ah. Hearing hearing you say that that way is 671 00:34:57,235 --> 00:35:01,350 both just completely exhausting and, like, staring into a 672 00:35:01,350 --> 00:35:01,830 mirror. 673 00:35:01,830 --> 00:35:06,070 Georgia Hampton: Yes. Yes. Because and I think what can be 674 00:35:06,070 --> 00:35:12,465 so treacherous about existing on the social Internet is that you 675 00:35:12,465 --> 00:35:17,505 are constantly having to reset that awareness and being like, 676 00:35:17,505 --> 00:35:18,305 right. Right. Right. 677 00:35:18,305 --> 00:35:24,225 Right. Cannot juggle 300 chainsaws at the same time. I 678 00:35:24,225 --> 00:35:29,150 can't. And also, have to, while I'm engaging with all of this, 679 00:35:29,950 --> 00:35:33,150 kind of do some extra work if I wanna really understand what's 680 00:35:33,150 --> 00:35:36,110 going on to be, like, cool. So is that actually happening? 681 00:35:36,510 --> 00:35:38,590 Where is this information from? Like, you have to do some 682 00:35:38,590 --> 00:35:42,495 background research, journalism y stuff. And the social Internet 683 00:35:42,495 --> 00:35:45,935 is constantly telling you, like, don't you just wanna just not do 684 00:35:45,935 --> 00:35:47,935 that and just think this is what's happening? 685 00:35:48,415 --> 00:35:50,415 Mike Rugnetta: Well, or the opposite. And TikTok is just 686 00:35:50,415 --> 00:35:52,255 like, hey. Don't you want another chainsaw? 687 00:35:52,895 --> 00:35:55,375 Georgia Hampton: Yes. It's like both of those that get this damn 688 00:35:55,375 --> 00:35:55,695 time. 689 00:35:56,140 --> 00:35:57,900 Jason Oberholtzer: Or the other option is to sort of, like, give 690 00:35:57,900 --> 00:36:01,900 over to idolatry and, like, pick your favorite talking icon and 691 00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:04,620 just be like, I'm gonna let them handle it. I'm gonna throw on 692 00:36:04,620 --> 00:36:07,660 Hassan, and everything Hassan says is true. I'm just gonna 693 00:36:07,660 --> 00:36:11,395 accept it. Or I'm gonna throw on Tucker. Or, like, whatever your 694 00:36:11,395 --> 00:36:14,755 deal is, you're just you're just gonna you're going to outsource 695 00:36:14,755 --> 00:36:18,115 that responsibility to someone else and then just decide that's 696 00:36:18,115 --> 00:36:21,635 the reality because they look a little more put together when 697 00:36:21,635 --> 00:36:23,555 they're doing the exact same shit you're doing. 698 00:36:23,875 --> 00:36:24,275 Georgia Hampton: Hans. 699 00:36:25,340 --> 00:36:28,780 Hans Buetow: Even though they have 45 people working making 700 00:36:28,780 --> 00:36:32,940 them sound smart, in direct answer to your question, Mike, I 701 00:36:32,940 --> 00:36:38,460 think are they informed is maybe not the right question. Because 702 00:36:38,460 --> 00:36:41,785 there's a difference between having the info and using the 703 00:36:41,785 --> 00:36:45,065 info, understanding the info, assimilating the info, making 704 00:36:45,065 --> 00:36:48,745 making meaning out of that info. I think a lot about the example 705 00:36:48,745 --> 00:36:52,985 of working with a bunch of different musicians. Guitarists 706 00:36:52,985 --> 00:36:55,065 are really quintessential for this, I think. 707 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,240 Mike Rugnetta: Jason and I are both very excited to hear what 708 00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:00,160 comes next. Talk about us. 709 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,360 Hans Buetow: This is a it's a classic distinction amongst 710 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,560 guitarists, that there are the technical guitarists and the 711 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,360 field guitarists. Right? So you have the technical guitarists 712 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,265 who can play literally anything under the sun, and it's 713 00:37:13,265 --> 00:37:16,865 stunning. And the adeptness that they have over the fingerboard 714 00:37:16,945 --> 00:37:19,585 and the the the level of finger picking or whatever their 715 00:37:19,585 --> 00:37:22,785 specialty is, or maybe they can do all specialties, it's just 716 00:37:22,785 --> 00:37:25,825 astonishing. And they tend to make the most boring records, 717 00:37:25,910 --> 00:37:30,630 but my god, they can they do whatever you ask them to do and 718 00:37:30,630 --> 00:37:32,950 do it really, really, like, competently. 719 00:37:33,510 --> 00:37:35,990 And then there's the people who don't know how to read, are 720 00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:39,670 super self conscious, only know how to do a couple of things, 721 00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:42,935 but the things that they know how to do are like speaking 722 00:37:42,935 --> 00:37:46,935 directly into their soul. And there's, like, there's a 723 00:37:46,935 --> 00:37:50,775 communication that happens that is not necessarily happening 724 00:37:50,855 --> 00:37:52,775 happening in a technical way. And I think the same thing 725 00:37:52,775 --> 00:37:56,780 applies to information. So you have you can have access to all 726 00:37:56,780 --> 00:38:00,540 of the facts. But if you don't know why those facts are 727 00:38:00,540 --> 00:38:03,980 important, not just important, but important to your life, or 728 00:38:03,980 --> 00:38:06,780 you haven't made this distinction of how you can use 729 00:38:06,780 --> 00:38:10,055 them, what they do for you, how to employ them, how to share 730 00:38:10,055 --> 00:38:12,215 them, how to make meaning out of them. 731 00:38:13,735 --> 00:38:16,295 And I think this is a big change from the first Trump 732 00:38:16,295 --> 00:38:19,415 administration to this Trump administration is that the first 733 00:38:19,415 --> 00:38:26,700 one, we all stared wide eyed and agog and thought that just by 734 00:38:26,700 --> 00:38:32,540 knowing and bearing witness Mhmm. Mhmm. Somehow that would 735 00:38:32,540 --> 00:38:37,755 make a difference. And I don't know. It did, because then Biden 736 00:38:37,755 --> 00:38:41,675 got elected and we, you know, solved it and wandered off into 737 00:38:41,675 --> 00:38:42,475 the sunset. 738 00:38:43,515 --> 00:38:45,195 Mike Rugnetta: And everything was fine. 739 00:38:45,515 --> 00:38:45,835 Hans Buetow: Mean, I 740 00:38:45,835 --> 00:38:48,510 Mike Rugnetta: think it's I think you have hit the nail on 741 00:38:48,510 --> 00:38:51,150 the head as far as both the successes and the shortcomings 742 00:38:51,150 --> 00:38:55,550 of that approach. Right? Like, bearing witness does something, 743 00:38:55,550 --> 00:38:58,350 but it certainly doesn't do everything. Yeah. 744 00:38:58,350 --> 00:38:59,790 Jason Oberholtzer: And and I think the other thing that it 745 00:38:59,790 --> 00:39:03,065 did is it kept off this decade of existing online where it 746 00:39:03,065 --> 00:39:06,265 seemed like the project was to see more things, get more 747 00:39:06,265 --> 00:39:09,385 perspectives, and therefore, know more things. And then what 748 00:39:09,385 --> 00:39:13,225 would logically, obviously, follow is that we would act on 749 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,960 more information to make better choices. And that in some sense, 750 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,920 if we were able to be more correct about something, if you 751 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,720 knew more and you could be more right, then that would have an 752 00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:28,360 outcome that would affect a positive change. That would do 753 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,155 something. And I think In this 754 00:39:30,155 --> 00:39:31,275 Mike Rugnetta: house, we believe in science. 755 00:39:31,275 --> 00:39:34,155 Jason Oberholtzer: Exactly. And I think that that moment of 756 00:39:34,155 --> 00:39:38,875 Trump won put the lie to that, where you are able to say 757 00:39:38,875 --> 00:39:42,750 objectively even, like, this is true. This is false. This is 758 00:39:42,750 --> 00:39:45,470 good. This is bad, and that should be worth something. 759 00:39:46,030 --> 00:39:52,270 And the concept of power does not care about that. Now it was 760 00:39:52,270 --> 00:39:55,230 never more plainly true. And so I think in Trump won, we spent a 761 00:39:55,230 --> 00:39:59,345 lot of time still kind of clinging to that hope. Like, 762 00:39:59,345 --> 00:40:02,065 well, if I learn enough about the things that are happening in 763 00:40:02,065 --> 00:40:04,465 there and I can, like, articulate them and I get more 764 00:40:04,465 --> 00:40:07,905 knowledge, surely I will be rewarded for being more right 765 00:40:07,905 --> 00:40:11,905 with a just universe. And it does not matter. 766 00:40:12,410 --> 00:40:17,290 Georgia Hampton: No. And I think there is a very tantalizing 767 00:40:18,090 --> 00:40:21,850 sense of comfort that can come from information gathering. The 768 00:40:21,850 --> 00:40:25,835 sort of, you know, pointing at what this administration is 769 00:40:25,835 --> 00:40:29,035 doing going, that's illegal. Like 770 00:40:30,635 --> 00:40:31,595 Mike Rugnetta: I can't help but notice 771 00:40:31,595 --> 00:40:31,995 Georgia Hampton: that you're 772 00:40:31,995 --> 00:40:33,595 Mike Rugnetta: being hypocritical. 773 00:40:33,595 --> 00:40:35,355 Georgia Hampton: That's actually in violation of the 774 00:40:35,355 --> 00:40:39,700 constitution. Like, which like, the yes. There is there is a 775 00:40:39,700 --> 00:40:47,140 very shallow sense of control and ownership and agency that 776 00:40:47,140 --> 00:40:50,180 you can gather from something like that. But I think what's 777 00:40:50,180 --> 00:40:55,535 happening a lot, at least right now, in the second iteration of 778 00:40:55,535 --> 00:41:03,055 this administration, is this, like, rending of the comfort 779 00:41:03,055 --> 00:41:06,895 that that kind of information gathering and sharing of 780 00:41:06,895 --> 00:41:11,300 information can offer, and it's very obvious limitation. 781 00:41:11,540 --> 00:41:14,180 Jason Oberholtzer: Mhmm. I no longer see or I less frequently 782 00:41:14,180 --> 00:41:17,540 see that behavior on display now. I see a lot less of the, 783 00:41:17,780 --> 00:41:20,820 well, I looked at this thing that they proposed, and I got to 784 00:41:20,820 --> 00:41:22,900 the bottom of it, and here's the hypocritical points of it. 785 00:41:22,995 --> 00:41:25,795 Here's where it's illegal, and here's where it's wrong. And I'm 786 00:41:25,795 --> 00:41:28,035 gonna put this here, and surely, it will find its way to the 787 00:41:28,035 --> 00:41:29,875 right hands who can do something about this. 788 00:41:29,875 --> 00:41:31,475 I see a lot less of that. 789 00:41:31,475 --> 00:41:32,675 Hans Buetow: Yeah. It's Yeah. 790 00:41:32,755 --> 00:41:34,995 Mike Rugnetta: I will say it's all over blue sky, but it's 791 00:41:34,995 --> 00:41:40,290 definitely not the level of it doesn't attain the level of 792 00:41:40,290 --> 00:41:44,130 cultural cache that it did on Twitter, you know Sure. Five or 793 00:41:44,130 --> 00:41:44,770 six years ago. 794 00:41:44,770 --> 00:41:46,850 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. Or it's even presented in sort of this 795 00:41:46,850 --> 00:41:49,890 wilting way of, like, hey, someone had to do it. So here's 796 00:41:49,890 --> 00:41:50,370 why this is 797 00:41:50,370 --> 00:41:51,810 Georgia Hampton: wrong. Guys. But 798 00:41:51,970 --> 00:41:53,090 Jason Oberholtzer: I'm just gonna stick it here in the 799 00:41:53,090 --> 00:41:53,890 timeline for fun. 800 00:41:54,135 --> 00:41:56,695 Mike Rugnetta: Or it's presented earnestly by, like, you know, a 801 00:41:56,695 --> 00:41:59,895 blue wave bot account. So probably some a Russian 802 00:41:59,895 --> 00:42:02,935 somewhere. Yeah. Okay. Let's take a quick break. 803 00:42:04,055 --> 00:42:07,015 Alright. So there's two things I wanna say. The first is it feels 804 00:42:07,015 --> 00:42:14,210 like there is this kind of, like, parallel set of skills or 805 00:42:14,210 --> 00:42:18,770 this parallel relationship between the time we spend on our 806 00:42:18,770 --> 00:42:24,365 devices and the time that we spend on those devices building 807 00:42:24,685 --> 00:42:30,765 and reinforcing skills that are only useful on those devices. 808 00:42:31,725 --> 00:42:36,045 Interesting. It is a it is like a compounding problem. 809 00:42:36,285 --> 00:42:40,820 It's hard to do the first thing, so it's extra hard to do the 810 00:42:40,820 --> 00:42:48,340 second thing. And it feels like a level of both critical 811 00:42:48,340 --> 00:42:53,855 technological engagement and critical self engagement that 812 00:42:53,855 --> 00:42:57,695 every piece of techno almost every piece of technology and of 813 00:42:57,855 --> 00:43:01,215 and as we're discussing right now, a fair amount of the user 814 00:43:01,215 --> 00:43:05,455 base of those technologies disincentivize you from engaging 815 00:43:05,455 --> 00:43:05,855 in. 816 00:43:05,855 --> 00:43:12,390 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Oh my god. Yes. Oh my god. Because, I 817 00:43:12,390 --> 00:43:16,070 mean, truly, there there are times when I am just scrolling 818 00:43:16,150 --> 00:43:18,310 on Instagram or TikTok or whatever. 819 00:43:18,310 --> 00:43:23,085 It's usually just those two. And it's like I sort of emerge from 820 00:43:23,085 --> 00:43:26,445 the ether, and I'm like, what am I looking for right now? 821 00:43:26,605 --> 00:43:29,965 Mike Rugnetta: Like I was just talking to I make a show with 822 00:43:29,965 --> 00:43:31,885 some friends where we play a game, but we have a chat show 823 00:43:31,885 --> 00:43:33,885 related to it. And one of the players in the game, my friend 824 00:43:33,885 --> 00:43:37,500 Taylor Moore, was like, I hate waking up an hour later learning 825 00:43:37,500 --> 00:43:41,580 I've been pwned by Instagram. Yeah. Just how it feels. 826 00:43:41,580 --> 00:43:43,980 Georgia Hampton: Right? Yeah. Where it's like, it's so 827 00:43:44,860 --> 00:43:49,420 abundantly easy to waste an hour Yeah. On TikTok or Instagram or 828 00:43:49,420 --> 00:43:53,515 wherever. And it is exponentially harder the longer 829 00:43:53,515 --> 00:43:57,195 you do that to kind of pull yourself out of the drift and be 830 00:43:57,195 --> 00:43:58,235 like, wait a second. 831 00:43:58,875 --> 00:44:01,355 Hello? Where am I? 832 00:44:03,150 --> 00:44:05,310 Hans Buetow: I think we're seeing a real disconnect. I 833 00:44:05,310 --> 00:44:07,630 wrote down Mike, this is part like, I wrote down the thing I 834 00:44:07,630 --> 00:44:09,870 wanna say is the fire hose versus the tools. Like, those 835 00:44:09,870 --> 00:44:12,670 two things don't match each other anymore, and I think we 836 00:44:12,910 --> 00:44:14,750 really don't. We are we have, like, the beginning of an 837 00:44:14,750 --> 00:44:18,270 awareness that they don't match, but we're not sure what else to 838 00:44:17,985 --> 00:44:22,145 do because these are the tools that we have, which seem 839 00:44:22,145 --> 00:44:24,625 insufficient for the moment, they seem insufficient for the 840 00:44:24,625 --> 00:44:27,905 content, they seem information for insufficient for the format. 841 00:44:27,905 --> 00:44:29,425 Like, I want to 842 00:44:29,505 --> 00:44:30,065 Mike Rugnetta: hurt you. 843 00:44:30,065 --> 00:44:33,300 Hans Buetow: They're built to hurt you. And and I say I mean, 844 00:44:33,300 --> 00:44:36,100 I did a story last March with doctor Steven Lewandowski 845 00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:39,780 talking about critical ignoring, this idea that you can't absorb 846 00:44:39,780 --> 00:44:42,740 everything, and it's actually harmful to try to absorb 847 00:44:42,740 --> 00:44:45,985 everything. Since that time, then I did this and went deep 848 00:44:45,985 --> 00:44:49,105 with him on it and really lived this stuff. Have I been able to 849 00:44:49,105 --> 00:44:50,465 incorporate that? I have not. 850 00:44:50,465 --> 00:44:54,225 I say things like, oh, I want to do to do that, but I don't. And 851 00:44:54,225 --> 00:44:57,425 in some ways, I'm like, oh, I want to do that, but I can't? 852 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:02,760 Maybe that's more of what it is? Like, I want to be able to be 853 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:04,920 more specific. I want to be able to be more localized. 854 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,720 But if I can't find the things that are happening around me, 855 00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:10,680 the the information that actually has value or that I can 856 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,715 actually make meaning out of, if those are getting more and more 857 00:45:13,715 --> 00:45:17,475 difficult for me to find because the tools don't allow them to 858 00:45:17,475 --> 00:45:20,435 surface This is exactly 859 00:45:20,915 --> 00:45:23,475 Mike Rugnetta: the thing that Ryan talked about, not knowing 860 00:45:23,475 --> 00:45:24,675 what's going on around you. 861 00:45:24,675 --> 00:45:25,315 Hans Buetow: Ryan Roderick. 862 00:45:25,315 --> 00:45:27,680 Mike Rugnetta: Yeah. Yeah. And also the thing, Jason, that you 863 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,880 just mentioned. I wanna, like, tie this all together. Jason, 864 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,920 you were talking about a few minutes ago this idea that, 865 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:38,320 like, we're using the Internet in a way that was its original 866 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:42,255 promise and that we think that it's for, or at least a certain 867 00:45:42,255 --> 00:45:43,135 portion of us. 868 00:45:43,135 --> 00:45:46,895 Like, I think millennials especially maybe cling to this 869 00:45:46,895 --> 00:45:50,495 more than than other groups, which is like, the Internet is a 870 00:45:50,655 --> 00:45:56,040 global network. It is made for you to be able to communicate 871 00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:01,160 with people and acquire media and familiarize yourself with 872 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,920 perspectives that are fundamentally different from the 873 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,535 ones that are available to you in a necessarily bounded 874 00:46:08,535 --> 00:46:11,495 geographical location with your local community. And I think 875 00:46:11,495 --> 00:46:16,855 that, like, all of these things add up to, like, kinda what Hans 876 00:46:16,855 --> 00:46:21,590 is saying, like, the big struggle right now is, I think, 877 00:46:21,590 --> 00:46:26,230 in in part, the impulse to use the Internet as it's always been 878 00:46:26,230 --> 00:46:31,270 used by at least our cohort, a thing to socialize and connect 879 00:46:31,270 --> 00:46:34,150 globally, which, you know, that's powerful and that's 880 00:46:34,150 --> 00:46:38,805 important, but we can't act globally. And that's becoming 881 00:46:38,805 --> 00:46:43,045 increasingly clear, and I think increasingly true. It may have 882 00:46:43,045 --> 00:46:47,205 been less true twenty or thirty years ago, but it's more true 883 00:46:47,205 --> 00:46:51,430 now that, like, it's even hard to act locally given the state 884 00:46:51,430 --> 00:46:53,430 of especially American politics. 885 00:46:53,430 --> 00:47:00,230 Mhmm. And, you know, I feel like even my ability to even know how 886 00:47:00,230 --> 00:47:05,315 to act locally has perhaps atrophied a bit because of my 887 00:47:05,315 --> 00:47:10,675 focus on the importance of familiarizing myself with 888 00:47:11,075 --> 00:47:12,915 national and global events. 889 00:47:12,915 --> 00:47:13,235 Jason Oberholtzer: So 890 00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:18,160 Mike Rugnetta: I think this isn't really a question so much 891 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:23,440 as like, I don't know, a hypothesis or like a charge, but 892 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:30,305 it's like, I think that we have to figure out how to have a 893 00:47:30,305 --> 00:47:34,705 healthy time and information based relationship with our 894 00:47:34,705 --> 00:47:40,510 devices that leads to more local action, and I just don't know 895 00:47:40,510 --> 00:47:41,470 where to start. 896 00:47:41,870 --> 00:47:44,270 Hans Buetow: I just wanna enter that, like, I actually find this 897 00:47:44,270 --> 00:47:47,790 time really exciting. I mean, amongst all of the, like, 898 00:47:48,510 --> 00:47:50,990 awfulness that it represents because we're untethered, we're 899 00:47:50,990 --> 00:47:54,315 unmoored, we don't have the right tools for the situation, 900 00:47:54,315 --> 00:47:59,115 we know it, that feels terrible. But boy does it feel exciting. 901 00:47:59,115 --> 00:48:02,475 There are tools out there that you like, I'm I'm going back to 902 00:48:02,475 --> 00:48:06,260 RSS feeds in a really big way, and I'm changing the way that I 903 00:48:06,260 --> 00:48:09,220 regard them, which is, like, I read through them, rather than 904 00:48:09,220 --> 00:48:13,380 just, like, the scrolling of of that kind of the opposite of 905 00:48:13,380 --> 00:48:14,900 what you're saying, which is, like, headline, headline, 906 00:48:14,900 --> 00:48:16,820 headline, Mike. I'm like, no. 907 00:48:17,385 --> 00:48:20,825 Pause. Read the thing. Read the thing. And I'm following things 908 00:48:20,825 --> 00:48:22,985 like Investigate Midwest, who does, like, investigative 909 00:48:22,985 --> 00:48:26,665 reporting on, like, who owns land in Nebraska, and, like, 910 00:48:26,665 --> 00:48:29,750 what's the stuff in my part of the world that actually makes 911 00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:32,710 some degree of sense, and then talking to the people. I mean, I 912 00:48:32,710 --> 00:48:35,350 think this is the other thing from the from the daily that is 913 00:48:35,350 --> 00:48:35,990 a good example. 914 00:48:35,990 --> 00:48:37,750 It's, like, it's about asking questions to the people who do 915 00:48:37,750 --> 00:48:42,515 know. It's not about pretending like you know. And I find it 916 00:48:42,515 --> 00:48:45,395 really helpful. I just feel like there there are new tools five 917 00:48:45,395 --> 00:48:49,315 years from now. Could we have new tools and new ways that we 918 00:48:49,315 --> 00:48:49,955 interact? 919 00:48:49,955 --> 00:48:51,555 Could we retrain ourselves? 920 00:48:52,435 --> 00:48:54,435 Mike Rugnetta: I really wanna believe the answer to that is 921 00:48:54,435 --> 00:48:58,620 yes. But like, if you look at if you look at, like, the Neighbors 922 00:48:58,620 --> 00:49:03,180 app or, like, Nextdoor or Patch, it's it's all just poison. 923 00:49:03,180 --> 00:49:03,580 Hans Buetow: Yeah. 924 00:49:03,820 --> 00:49:07,660 Mike Rugnetta: You when you connect local people via Yeah. 925 00:49:07,660 --> 00:49:12,515 These, like, global media technologies, they turn into 926 00:49:12,515 --> 00:49:13,235 monsters. 927 00:49:13,235 --> 00:49:15,075 Jason Oberholtzer: Well, this is, like, the ironic thing that 928 00:49:15,075 --> 00:49:19,235 then you notice is I'm trying to do a lot more intentional 929 00:49:20,195 --> 00:49:24,220 interaction with my content. The the reason I say Blue Sky is not 930 00:49:24,220 --> 00:49:26,460 a feed, it's because it's something that I go to to 931 00:49:26,460 --> 00:49:29,180 intentionally click through to articles and read them, to get 932 00:49:29,180 --> 00:49:32,380 out of the feed and into the source material. I'm only 933 00:49:32,380 --> 00:49:35,020 listening to music on Bandcamp this year, where I can select 934 00:49:35,020 --> 00:49:37,985 something, listen to it until I don't want to, and then do the 935 00:49:37,985 --> 00:49:40,865 little bit of work to find something else for some reason 936 00:49:40,865 --> 00:49:46,785 to listen to. And in doing these things more, I am noticing more 937 00:49:47,025 --> 00:49:52,880 how terrible most content is, the more I'm allowing myself to 938 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,880 choose my way around it, that it is awful, and it is getting 939 00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:01,680 worse, and it is roundly celebrated. The things that are 940 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,105 put up for awards, the things that have the most eyeballs, the 941 00:50:05,105 --> 00:50:08,145 things that are most embraced by all of these content industries 942 00:50:08,145 --> 00:50:09,345 are worse. 943 00:50:09,985 --> 00:50:14,465 This is not just the bias of age. This is not just, like, my 944 00:50:14,465 --> 00:50:17,745 genre of something is better. These are just empirically bad 945 00:50:17,745 --> 00:50:22,000 things, And they're getting rewarded constantly. And there 946 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:25,680 is something that feels inevitable about it in a very, 947 00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:27,520 very deeply dispiriting way. 948 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:29,280 Georgia Hampton: Well, I mean, the Internet is not a 949 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,975 meritocracy, and I think we are seeing that in so many very 950 00:50:32,975 --> 00:50:33,935 miserable ways. 951 00:50:34,415 --> 00:50:37,135 Jason Oberholtzer: Who misses me in an astronaut suit behind you 952 00:50:37,135 --> 00:50:37,935 with a gun? 953 00:50:39,135 --> 00:50:41,855 Mike Rugnetta: Well, yeah. Exactly. Like You're telling me 954 00:50:42,735 --> 00:50:47,200 thing with biggest number is most popular Yeah. Is maybe 955 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:48,880 rigged? Well, 956 00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:52,320 Georgia Hampton: I'm gonna blow your mind. But but, no, I mean, 957 00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:58,800 I wanna I wanna really drill down on this overarching issue 958 00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,555 of the hyper individualization of our online experience. 959 00:51:01,555 --> 00:51:03,955 Because I think it's something where the Internet is both too 960 00:51:03,955 --> 00:51:06,915 much and not enough in many ways, and that I think is 961 00:51:06,915 --> 00:51:10,915 exacerbated by the fact that we are reliably and stubbornly 962 00:51:10,915 --> 00:51:14,780 siloed into these individual experiences. We're sure there 963 00:51:14,780 --> 00:51:17,660 are a lot of people online, and you can engage with them. And in 964 00:51:17,660 --> 00:51:19,660 some ways, that's beautiful and incredible. 965 00:51:19,660 --> 00:51:24,540 But it also is a space that heavily incentivizes you to 966 00:51:24,540 --> 00:51:30,845 exist as one agent that is not encouraged to kind of reach out 967 00:51:30,845 --> 00:51:33,805 your hand. It's the whole idea of everyone wants a village, but 968 00:51:33,805 --> 00:51:38,845 no one wants to be a villager. And I think in addition to us 969 00:51:38,845 --> 00:51:42,525 engaging with news content online in a way that is 970 00:51:42,525 --> 00:51:46,850 hopefully more intentional, that is sort of removing yourself 971 00:51:46,930 --> 00:51:52,210 from the lazy river of the feed to be, like, I don't wanna look 972 00:51:52,210 --> 00:51:54,610 at this, and I wanna look at this other thing. I can turn 973 00:51:54,610 --> 00:51:56,450 this off. I can put my phone away. 974 00:51:56,450 --> 00:51:59,490 I can change the app. I can text my friend. I think in addition 975 00:51:59,490 --> 00:52:04,825 to all of that, this is such a simple thing. But, like, talk to 976 00:52:04,825 --> 00:52:06,185 your friends. Talk to your friends. 977 00:52:06,185 --> 00:52:06,905 Talk to your friends. 978 00:52:06,905 --> 00:52:08,185 Mike Rugnetta: Talk to your Talk 979 00:52:08,185 --> 00:52:09,705 Georgia Hampton: to your neighbors. Go to the park with 980 00:52:09,705 --> 00:52:13,145 your friends. Like, go to a bar with your friends. Call them on 981 00:52:13,145 --> 00:52:14,505 the phone. Like, honestly 982 00:52:14,825 --> 00:52:16,425 Hans Buetow: Go to a city council meeting. 983 00:52:16,425 --> 00:52:20,320 Georgia Hampton: Yes. Oh my god. Absolutely. Like, it it's that 984 00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:24,720 is the thing that is going to save us always, is having this 985 00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:28,400 real community of hands reaching out for each other and holding 986 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:29,040 each other. 987 00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,160 Mike Rugnetta: I think that that's right. And I think that 988 00:52:33,645 --> 00:52:37,565 so I've in the last couple years, I moved and I moved into 989 00:52:37,565 --> 00:52:39,645 a studio, which is in a different neighborhood from 990 00:52:39,645 --> 00:52:42,685 where my studio from where my house is. So it's like I've kind 991 00:52:42,685 --> 00:52:46,605 of joined two new neighborhoods or two new communities in the 992 00:52:46,605 --> 00:52:50,300 last couple years. And I noticed something in both of them that I 993 00:52:50,300 --> 00:52:54,620 have been wondering idly if it's just generally true and not true 994 00:52:54,620 --> 00:52:58,380 in just these specific locations, which is in both of 995 00:52:58,380 --> 00:53:03,755 those places, I showed up and one person was like, hey, we 996 00:53:03,755 --> 00:53:07,835 have a group chat. We have a place that we all hang out in, 997 00:53:07,835 --> 00:53:09,275 and here it is, you join it. 998 00:53:09,355 --> 00:53:13,930 And I've since left both of them because they're both toxic and 999 00:53:13,930 --> 00:53:20,570 horrible. Just the worst, like, unhinged, like, people being 1000 00:53:20,570 --> 00:53:24,010 mean, people hiding behind a screen even though they're your 1001 00:53:24,010 --> 00:53:26,570 neighbors. And it's like, people who, like, when I see them on 1002 00:53:26,570 --> 00:53:29,985 the street, I'm like, you are perfectly nice. Like, why are 1003 00:53:29,985 --> 00:53:30,385 you 1004 00:53:30,385 --> 00:53:30,865 Georgia Hampton: Oh, jeez. 1005 00:53:30,865 --> 00:53:33,825 Mike Rugnetta: Such a shit, like, in the WhatsApp group. 1006 00:53:33,905 --> 00:53:37,825 Mhmm. And I wonder whether or not it is just the, like, the 1007 00:53:37,825 --> 00:53:41,745 direction of flow of participation, where it's like 1008 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:49,520 shoving people into the hopper that is the feeding mechanism to 1009 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:54,000 a technologically mediated community as opposed to 1010 00:53:54,240 --> 00:53:58,875 gathering a community and then saying, let's also communicate 1011 00:53:58,875 --> 00:54:01,195 via distributed media. 1012 00:54:01,195 --> 00:54:04,955 Jason Oberholtzer: Yeah. It it does feel like people, I don't 1013 00:54:04,955 --> 00:54:08,955 think consciously, fall into archetypes of talking through 1014 00:54:08,955 --> 00:54:14,810 mediated devices. Like, there are scores fewer types of guys 1015 00:54:14,810 --> 00:54:18,890 you can be online than there were, I don't know, a decade ago 1016 00:54:18,890 --> 00:54:21,690 or something. People are like, I'm I'm typing in my phone, 1017 00:54:21,850 --> 00:54:25,210 there's one of four lanes that I type in, and unfortunately, one 1018 00:54:25,210 --> 00:54:26,170 of them is to be a dick. 1019 00:54:26,345 --> 00:54:31,385 Hans Buetow: Yeah. I think one to many has proven itself to be 1020 00:54:31,385 --> 00:54:35,305 a dangerous thing for our psychology, and I think a lot of 1021 00:54:35,305 --> 00:54:39,640 the Internet is set up to make us one to many. And I think, 1022 00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:41,880 Mike, what you're saying, what we're kind of all coming to is 1023 00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:46,360 one to one or one to few. One to few. Or I think, like, 1024 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,120 Mike Rugnetta: I said this on Matt Silverman's podcast a few 1025 00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:54,215 weeks ago, just like, I think that a lot of these spaces, 1026 00:54:55,415 --> 00:55:00,615 because of just the cultural moment that we're in, people get 1027 00:55:00,615 --> 00:55:05,015 in them and they have an audience. And I think they think 1028 00:55:05,015 --> 00:55:07,980 of the people that they're typing to even in the 1029 00:55:07,980 --> 00:55:11,820 neighborhood group chat as their audience. I think that's a % 1030 00:55:11,820 --> 00:55:13,420 right. That's poisonous. 1031 00:55:13,420 --> 00:55:15,580 Georgia Hampton: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think it's 1032 00:55:15,580 --> 00:55:20,060 another way to have to untie knots, you know, is that it's 1033 00:55:20,060 --> 00:55:25,965 it's abundantly easy to just behave like, oh, cool. So I 1034 00:55:25,965 --> 00:55:28,045 actually just have a captive audience, and this isn't 1035 00:55:28,045 --> 00:55:30,365 actually community. This isn't actually a village. 1036 00:55:30,685 --> 00:55:35,805 And it it just forces you back into that silo again and again 1037 00:55:35,805 --> 00:55:39,250 and again. And there are going to be groups like that. And I 1038 00:55:39,250 --> 00:55:42,290 think what sucks, but is true, is that we will have to see that 1039 00:55:42,290 --> 00:55:45,410 and be like, cool. That's not my village. I'm going to go 1040 00:55:45,410 --> 00:55:46,050 somewhere else. 1041 00:55:46,050 --> 00:55:47,970 Mike Rugnetta: And I think to your point, Georgia, it's 1042 00:55:47,970 --> 00:55:51,025 exactly like what we started this conversation talking about. 1043 00:55:51,025 --> 00:55:53,585 It's really easy for those people to pick up their phone 1044 00:55:53,585 --> 00:55:57,105 and know that that audience is always there. There's always a 1045 00:55:57,105 --> 00:56:00,705 feed of things to do. There's, like, there's just you know, and 1046 00:56:00,705 --> 00:56:03,210 it's hard to say no to I think for some people, it's hard to 1047 00:56:03,210 --> 00:56:05,610 say no to. Alright. 1048 00:56:05,610 --> 00:56:08,090 I wanna wrap us up, but I wanna leave us with one question. 1049 00:56:08,650 --> 00:56:14,170 Answer this however you see fit. How do you know when it is time 1050 00:56:14,170 --> 00:56:14,890 to log off? 1051 00:56:17,185 --> 00:56:21,105 Hans Buetow: When my head hits the keyboard. There 1052 00:56:22,225 --> 00:56:26,545 Mike Rugnetta: is one guy on TikTok, and his name is Hugh, 1053 00:56:26,545 --> 00:56:31,900 and he is a Scottish man who lives in India. And his whole 1054 00:56:31,900 --> 00:56:36,140 channel, which is great, is just him going to, street side food 1055 00:56:36,140 --> 00:56:39,500 vendors throughout all of India, all over the place. And he has 1056 00:56:39,500 --> 00:56:43,835 the very opposite approach from so many other people, especially 1057 00:56:43,835 --> 00:56:48,075 westerners on TikTok who sample Indian street food, which is 1058 00:56:48,075 --> 00:56:51,835 that he is nonjudgmental, he's nice, he has pleasant 1059 00:56:51,835 --> 00:56:54,875 interactions with the people, he pays them, he eats the food, and 1060 00:56:54,875 --> 00:56:59,280 then he reviews it, and most things he enjoys. He seems 1061 00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:03,760 genuinely nice. And at the start of every video, he goes, it's 1062 00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:06,480 something like, oh, look at this. 1063 00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:10,640 What's being sold here? Oh. And when I hear that, I think, I'm 1064 00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:12,395 gonna watch this video and then I'm gonna go to 1065 00:57:12,395 --> 00:57:13,355 Georgia Hampton: bed. Yes. 1066 00:57:14,555 --> 00:57:17,195 Mike Rugnetta: Like, he always finds me at the right time. 1067 00:57:17,595 --> 00:57:23,035 Georgia Hampton: He knows. I will genuinely set timers, like, 1068 00:57:23,035 --> 00:57:27,610 internally for myself be like, cool. It's 11:30PM. I'm going to 1069 00:57:28,170 --> 00:57:33,210 be on TikTok until 11:45, and then I'm done. But it I I will 1070 00:57:33,210 --> 00:57:36,810 usually have that kind of question of what am I looking 1071 00:57:36,810 --> 00:57:37,690 for right now? 1072 00:57:37,930 --> 00:57:41,025 Why do I feel like I'm, like, rummaging frantically looking 1073 00:57:41,025 --> 00:57:45,985 for something and I'm like, I gotta go. It's time to go. 1074 00:57:45,985 --> 00:57:47,425 Mike Rugnetta: Time to hit the old dusty trail. 1075 00:57:47,425 --> 00:57:49,905 Jason Oberholtzer: Yep. I think I only really know through 1076 00:57:49,905 --> 00:57:55,680 fatigue markers. I will get tired of the channel that I'm on 1077 00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:58,080 and I will go to a different channel and then realize I've 1078 00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,440 already been there and then decide that I'm in aggregate 1079 00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:07,485 fatigued enough to stop. And that does not seem good like 1080 00:58:08,445 --> 00:58:09,805 Yeah. You're not supposed to reach 1081 00:58:09,725 --> 00:58:12,205 Mike Rugnetta: end of the rope, you know? No. Yeah. 1082 00:58:12,365 --> 00:58:14,125 Jason Oberholtzer: No. It is that. And I think, you know, I 1083 00:58:14,205 --> 00:58:19,885 there is I think there is I have some difficulty discerning sort 1084 00:58:19,885 --> 00:58:23,130 of the sources of my pain. And so when you are just constantly 1085 00:58:23,130 --> 00:58:27,690 online and in pain, who knows if it is getting worse or better or 1086 00:58:27,690 --> 00:58:31,210 if you could continue or stop. And so all you have left is 1087 00:58:31,210 --> 00:58:33,770 fatigue and sometimes that makes me stop. 1088 00:58:33,930 --> 00:58:35,185 And I'm gonna work on that. 1089 00:58:35,665 --> 00:58:37,585 Hans Buetow: I I don't have a good answer. I don't have a good 1090 00:58:37,585 --> 00:58:41,265 answer. I'm not as self aware as I need to be in this realm and I 1091 00:58:41,265 --> 00:58:43,905 appreciate the conversation because it's helping me realize 1092 00:58:43,905 --> 00:58:46,865 I should be. I'm gonna should all over myself which is 1093 00:58:46,865 --> 00:58:48,705 something my grandmother would be mad at. 1094 00:58:49,105 --> 00:58:52,680 Mike Rugnetta: That's right. That's right. Alright, friends. 1095 00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:54,840 Thank you for joining. Thanks for the conversation. 1096 00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,840 Thanks everybody for listening. We'll have an episode in the 1097 00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:03,975 main feed for you next week. See you soon. Bye. Bye.