Latest / Substack Writers Salon / 'It Took Me Two Years to Make Real Money': The Unfiltered Truth About Building a Writing Business

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'It Took Me Two Years to Make Real Money': The Unfiltered Truth About Building a Writing Business · Substack Writers Salon

0:00
SPEAKER_00: And we are live.
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SPEAKER_00: Hi, everyone, and welcome to another Substack Live.
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SPEAKER_00: Today, we have the amazing Veronica Yorca-Smith, who's a writer, author,
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SPEAKER_00: coach and a public speaker.
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SPEAKER_00: She helps you turn your creativity into a six-figure business.
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SPEAKER_00: Her latest book is The Anti-Procrastinator.
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SPEAKER_00: And today,
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we are going to talk about how to turn your creativity and how
0:34
to grow your digital
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SPEAKER_00: outreach and
0:41
SPEAKER_00: into a booming business and how to use books in order to do that.
0:48
So,
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Veronica,
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first,
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congrats on publishing your book,
0:51
The Anti-Procrastinator.
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Can you tell us a bit about the process of publishing the book
0:59
and how do you think
1:00
it's important to have a book that will help you double your
1:07
outreach in this
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SPEAKER_00: digital world we're living in?
1:10
SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
1:11
SPEAKER_02: And first, hi, everyone.
1:13
SPEAKER_02: This is Veronica from Hong Kong and from The Lemon Tree Mindset.
1:17
SPEAKER_02: And so first question is the process of publishing.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: So this book,
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SPEAKER_02: so first thing,
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SPEAKER_02: full disclosure,
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SPEAKER_02: you can see here that there's a little penguin icon on the cover.
1:27
So that's Penguin Random House,
1:28
which is the biggest publisher in the world.
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But I cannot tell about the process of this book without
1:33
letting you know that before that,
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SPEAKER_02: There's been a journey of a lot of rejections.
1:37
SPEAKER_02: I published three books before having that one published.
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SPEAKER_02: And I had to get a lot of no's before I got a yes.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: In regards to the process,
1:47
SPEAKER_02: Natasha,
1:48
I don't know if you're interested in just a little bit of the
1:50
behind the scenes of
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SPEAKER_02: publishing with a big publisher,
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SPEAKER_02: which I think is interesting.
1:55
And one of the first things that surprised me and is also
1:59
something that is
1:59
interesting for the audience today is that I actually got the
2:02
book deal before I
2:04
SPEAKER_02: published the book.
2:05
SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow.
2:06
SPEAKER_02: Lucky.
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SPEAKER_02: How did that happen?
2:08
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
2:09
I used to think that you always had to finish your product and
2:12
kind of go out there and pitch.
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SPEAKER_02: And I had a bit of a different approach,
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SPEAKER_02: which was like,
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instead of me just going blind and kind of guessing what the
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publishers want,
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if I'm able to have the opportunity to talk to a representative
2:25
from the publisher
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SPEAKER_02: and understand what are you looking for?
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SPEAKER_02: What are some trends?
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SPEAKER_02: What are some type of themes that you think can be relevant to
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SPEAKER_02: So that's exactly what I did.
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SPEAKER_02: And my inspiration to take this approach was actually the book.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure that everyone has heard of it.
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SPEAKER_02: Pray, eat, pray, love.
2:43
SPEAKER_02: Eat, love, pray.
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SPEAKER_02: From Elizabeth Gilbert.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: So that was her approach.
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Like after her divorce,
2:50
she pitched this idea of a travelogue to multiple publishers.
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And she actually got an advance of $200,000 to travel the world
3:00
and start working on her book.
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SPEAKER_02: I did get an advance, but I can tell you it was not $200,000.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: The approach was very interesting.
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SPEAKER_02: And so for those of you who are writing,
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SPEAKER_02: you can actually go for this approach and see if you have an idea,
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SPEAKER_02: you have a pitch before you actually write the book.
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SPEAKER_02: So I think that was the most interesting part about the process.
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SPEAKER_02: In regards to the actual book,
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the second thing that I found was quite interesting is that
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even though my book was
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SPEAKER_02: written in only three months,
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SPEAKER_02: because that's the deadline they gave me,
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SPEAKER_02: so in fact,
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we need the book by the 31st of april and the book was about
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anti-procrastinating
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so i could not procrastinate on the book exactly the book was
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ready but what was
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interesting is that between the moment that the book was
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actually ready the
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manuscript and the publishing date there was actually a year so
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we worked together
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for a year we worked on the editing on the structural editing
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on the copy editing
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SPEAKER_02: on proofreading on
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SPEAKER_02: on preparing for the launch.
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SPEAKER_02: So there was a lot of preparation before the launch.
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SPEAKER_02: And so that part of the process I thought was interesting.
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You had a second question,
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but I don't know if you want to go a little bit deeper.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I just, I have a follow-up question.
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So you just pick publishers randomly and you send the idea
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without an agent?
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SPEAKER_00: Because from my understanding,
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SPEAKER_00: the big five,
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SPEAKER_00: the big five publishers,
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SPEAKER_00: they won't even look at you without an agent.
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SPEAKER_00: So how did you put that off?
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SPEAKER_02: So the first comment, you said you randomly pitched to publishers.
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SPEAKER_02: It wasn't random.
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SPEAKER_02: It was actually very, very calculated.
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SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
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SPEAKER_02: a random approach before and it didn't work.
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And what many authors or aspiring authors do is try to think
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that the more you
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SPEAKER_02: reach out and the more you pitch,
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SPEAKER_02: the higher your chances.
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SPEAKER_02: It doesn't really work that way.
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You're much better off doing a lot of research in regards to
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the publishers.
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SPEAKER_02: How are they structured?
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SPEAKER_02: Which is a publisher that is a good pitch for you, a good fit.
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SPEAKER_02: And from there, do a much more intentional pitch.
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SPEAKER_02: What I mean by this
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SPEAKER_02: is when you look at the big five,
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SPEAKER_02: whether you're talking about Penguin or Macmillan or any of the big ones,
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what's very interesting is that inside the umbrella of what we
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know as the big
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SPEAKER_02: brand,
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SPEAKER_02: you have hundreds of imprints.
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SPEAKER_02: And when I say hundreds, I literally mean in the case of
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SPEAKER_02: Penguin, there are more than 300 imprints.
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SPEAKER_02: Imprints is kind of sub-brands inside that big corporation.
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SPEAKER_02: So you might have the children's imprint.
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SPEAKER_02: You might have one that is specifically for fiction writers.
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SPEAKER_02: You might have one that is for women, history.
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And so doing your research to understand which imprint inside
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this publisher is the
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SPEAKER_02: one that is more aligned with my story.
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SPEAKER_02: In my case, for this one, for the anti-procrastinator,
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when i was checking penguin what i realized is that they had
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one of their imprints
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that was here in southeast asia so i'm based in hong kong they
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are based in
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singapore so not far and they were specifically interested in
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stories from people
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SPEAKER_02: who are already in this region so it was it was the perfect the perfect
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SPEAKER_02: And in this case, they didn't require an agent.
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SPEAKER_02: So yes,
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SPEAKER_02: generally speaking,
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there is this gatekeeper that tends to be the agent between the
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author and the
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SPEAKER_02: publisher because they do receive hundreds of manuscripts every day.
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SPEAKER_02: But you can knock on doors and do your homework
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and find out that there are actually some imprints where you
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can pitch directly.
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SPEAKER_02: So that was my strategy.
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SPEAKER_02: Not random, doing a lot of homework.
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And once I knew who was the publisher and the imprint that I
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wanted to go for,
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SPEAKER_02: go with a very tailored strategy.
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SPEAKER_00: I love that.
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SPEAKER_00: So did you publish books before that or was that your first one?
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SPEAKER_02: I published three before that one.
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SPEAKER_02: I self-published the first two, self-published on Amazon.
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SPEAKER_02: The third one,
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published with an indie publisher which was my and this one was
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the fourth okay so
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for your next book would you still go with a traditional
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publisher or would you go
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back to self-publishing because i talk with authors all the
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time and some of them
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kind of like do a la carte you know like they pick and choose
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like ah this one is
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self-publishing this one well what do you think now your
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approach would be after
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SPEAKER_00: you tried both
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SPEAKER_02: So having done both, I would stick to the publishers.
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SPEAKER_02: And not because you make more money.
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SPEAKER_02: If anything,
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I probably make less money because the royalties just for full
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disclosure,
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SPEAKER_02: you only get 8% of the sales.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: But personally,
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what I have found from publishing with publishers is that it
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gives you a lot of
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SPEAKER_02: credibility and it gives
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I'm not saying that it's a better book but I'm saying that in
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regards to how it's
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perceived out there it really puts you in another level of
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authority and to give
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some examples of what I mean I've participated in multiple
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literary festivals many
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SPEAKER_02: of them if not most of them
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SPEAKER_02: they only take published authors.
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SPEAKER_02: So they wouldn't take a self-published author, for example.
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SPEAKER_02: Going to the festivals,
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SPEAKER_02: like earlier this year,
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SPEAKER_02: I participated in the one in Hong Kong,
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SPEAKER_02: which is very prestigious.
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SPEAKER_02: I went to another one in India.
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SPEAKER_02: It really helps you elevate your profile as an author.
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SPEAKER_02: More so nowadays with the rise of AI.
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There are so many self-published books on AI,
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so much so that Amazon actually had to put a cap
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It was three books a day per author because otherwise it was
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just flooding the platforms.
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SPEAKER_02: So the publish,
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SPEAKER_02: in a way,
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SPEAKER_02: it doesn't mean that your book is better,
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but it means that there's been some auditing and there's been
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some filtering and
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SPEAKER_02: some gatekeepers.
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SPEAKER_02: So literary festivals and helping you boost your brand, that's one.
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SPEAKER_02: In my case, I'm also a public speaker.
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And so having books that have been certified or endorsed by a
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big publisher,
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SPEAKER_02: it also helps me get more gigs.
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SPEAKER_02: It also helps me raise my profile as a speaker.
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SPEAKER_02: So that's
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SPEAKER_02: Another benefit.
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SPEAKER_02: So there is an intangible value because it's not about the money,
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SPEAKER_02: but there is an intangible value that definitely helps you as an author.
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SPEAKER_02: So I think both options are great.
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SPEAKER_02: But in my case, that's what I'm going for.
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I think it goes very well for people who are public speakers
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who also have a
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SPEAKER_02: profile in the B2B world.
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SPEAKER_00: And when you and I were discussing the theme of this conversation,
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the theme that you suggested was growing your digital outreach
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through publishing
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SPEAKER_00: books.
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SPEAKER_00: So are you saying that everyone who wants to have an online brand,
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SPEAKER_00: an audience,
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SPEAKER_00: be a digital creator,
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SPEAKER_00: do you think that they should all publish books?
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SPEAKER_00: Do you think that's
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SPEAKER_00: one of the main pillars of success if you want to be a digital creator?
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So the way that I would put it is you don't necessarily have to
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have a book to be
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SPEAKER_02: successful as a creator.
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SPEAKER_02: There are so many creators, solopreneurs out there who don't have a book.
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SPEAKER_02: But what I can say,
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both from my experience and as well the experience of the
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creators and the writers
10:31
SPEAKER_02: that I coach,
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SPEAKER_02: is that when you have a book
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SPEAKER_02: It's always going to elevate your profile.
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SPEAKER_02: It's going to help you reach new audiences.
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SPEAKER_02: It's going to give you more credibility.
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SPEAKER_02: Very often, if you play it smart, a book is not just a book.
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SPEAKER_02: You can create an ecosystem around it.
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you go on live sessions which is what we're doing today i'm
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talking about my book
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even though it's not about a session specifically about the
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book but you really
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start to have your book as the center the epicenter of this
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beautiful ecosystem
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where you can have talks you can have even courses one of the
11:11
things that i would
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love to do at some point probably next year is turn my book the
11:15
anti-procrastinator
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SPEAKER_02: into a digital course and so it's
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SPEAKER_02: opened so many other avenues that I didn't know.
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SPEAKER_02: Another thing that was very interesting from writing books,
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SPEAKER_02: which was not part of the plan,
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SPEAKER_02: is that because now I've published four books,
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SPEAKER_02: some of them self-published and some of them with publishers,
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SPEAKER_02: I now coach authors who want to write a book,
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SPEAKER_02: who want to know how they can do a successful launch,
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SPEAKER_02: how they can start to speak in festivals.
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SPEAKER_02: So it can definitely open a lot of other business opportunities.
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SPEAKER_02: So do you need a book to be successful as a creator?
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SPEAKER_02: No.
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SPEAKER_02: But my experience is that when you do have a book,
11:55
SPEAKER_02: it just helps you elevate and accelerate the journey.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: So...
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SPEAKER_00: So looking at your Substack,
12:09
SPEAKER_00: and I've been following you for a while now,
12:12
SPEAKER_00: and I love the work that you do,
12:13
SPEAKER_00: and I'm really impressed by the fact that you're a mom,
12:16
SPEAKER_00: you're a big runner,
12:18
SPEAKER_00: you look great,
12:19
SPEAKER_00: you have a successful business,
12:20
SPEAKER_00: you publish books,
12:22
SPEAKER_00: and of course,
12:22
SPEAKER_00: I guess you anti-procrastinate.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: But...
12:27
SPEAKER_00: What do you think is the main bulk of your income?
12:32
SPEAKER_00: And I'm assuming you're doing this full-time.
12:36
Because when I read your bio,
12:39
it said that you left the corporate world to do this full-time.
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SPEAKER_00: Where is the bulk of your income coming from?
12:45
SPEAKER_00: Is it from coaching?
12:47
SPEAKER_00: Is it from digital products, from books, speaking?
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SPEAKER_00: If you're comfortable sharing that.
12:54
SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
12:55
SPEAKER_02: And you and I behind the scenes before this session,
12:58
SPEAKER_02: we were saying that we wanted to have a very transparent,
13:01
SPEAKER_02: a very open,
13:02
SPEAKER_02: a very raw talk about these.
13:04
And the first thing that I want to say is that when people say
13:07
that they make six
13:08
SPEAKER_02: figures from a writing business,
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SPEAKER_02: I would just double click on that to understand what it really means.
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I don't think I know one single creator who actually makes six
13:18
figures from a
13:18
SPEAKER_02: writing business because technically a writing business,
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SPEAKER_02: it means that you're just writing and people pay you for that.
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SPEAKER_02: That's not really the way that it works.
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SPEAKER_02: Most of the time, the writing is the
13:31
SPEAKER_02: is the foundation of everything.
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SPEAKER_02: But the monetization very often happens beyond the writing.
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SPEAKER_02: The writing is just the first layer.
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SPEAKER_02: People have courses,
13:43
SPEAKER_02: they have cohort,
13:44
SPEAKER_02: they have digital products,
13:45
SPEAKER_02: they have all these other things.
13:47
SPEAKER_02: And so the first message is that it's extremely hard
13:50
SPEAKER_02: to create a purely writing business.
13:53
SPEAKER_02: So back to your question,
13:54
SPEAKER_02: where my income comes from,
13:56
I'm a big believer in having a diversified portfolio the same
13:59
way that if you
14:00
SPEAKER_02: invest in stock,
14:01
SPEAKER_02: for example,
14:01
SPEAKER_02: it's good to have a diversified portfolio.
14:05
SPEAKER_02: And the number one income stream for me is public speaking.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: The reason is...
14:10
SPEAKER_02: I sell my keynotes and my workshops to organizations.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: Companies have much bigger budgets.
14:16
And so for one session,
14:18
for one webinar last week,
14:20
for example,
14:21
I was in Shanghai.
14:22
SPEAKER_02: They pay $5,000, $3,000 for one session.
14:25
SPEAKER_02: And so it plays the numbers very quickly.
14:29
SPEAKER_02: I'm relatively new in this world of public speaking.
14:34
SPEAKER_02: However, your fees keep going up as your profile keeps raising.
14:40
SPEAKER_02: And so today is $5,000 or $3,000 or whatever, wherever you start.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: But chances are,
14:46
SPEAKER_02: as you keep going these,
14:48
SPEAKER_02: you're going to keep increasing the fees for the same work.
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SPEAKER_02: So for me, that's the number one.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: And then besides the public speaking, I have other income streams.
14:58
SPEAKER_02: Like, for example, this year, I started launching courses on Gumroad.
15:03
SPEAKER_02: I saw that, yeah.
15:06
SPEAKER_02: I started in July and I was like, wow, this is amazing.
15:10
It allows me to scale and it allows me to have passive income
15:14
while I'm still
15:16
SPEAKER_02: working on all the things.
15:17
And so I found this so profitable and so scalable that even
15:22
though I only started
15:23
SPEAKER_02: in July,
15:24
SPEAKER_02: we are now in November and I've published four.
15:26
SPEAKER_02: I've done one only.
15:28
SPEAKER_02: then I did the translation for Spanish.
15:31
SPEAKER_02: I did one on public speaking last week.
15:33
SPEAKER_02: This is a self-promotion moment.
15:35
I did one precisely on how to launch a digital course on
15:39
Gumroad because my
15:41
SPEAKER_02: strategy as a creator is to openly share the things that work for me.
15:45
SPEAKER_02: By the way, the things that don't work, I share as well.
15:49
SPEAKER_02: The ones that work are the ones that we can really
15:52
move forward with and because i have had success and the
15:55
numbers are there and and
15:56
i've been really impressed by what you can achieve by having
16:00
digital courses where
16:01
you repackage your expertise you repackage your articles i'm
16:05
now sharing what's my
16:06
framework and what's my structure so that's that's another
16:09
pillar for for income
16:11
SPEAKER_02: stream so so point being i think it's important
16:14
to diversify and to try to see what are different channels you
16:18
can utilize.
16:20
And not only channels,
16:21
but also understanding that people have different ways of
16:24
learning.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: Some people like to have one-to-one.
16:27
SPEAKER_02: Some people like to have their own rhythm and learn through courses.
16:32
Some people like to be in cohorts so that they can learn with
16:34
other people.
16:35
And so I think opening this variety of options is going to give
16:40
your community
16:41
SPEAKER_02: different ways to connect with you.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: And it's also going to give you different ways of monetization.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: So you're a public speaker.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: So how did you get into being a public speaker?
16:53
SPEAKER_00: And what are your main themes when it comes to public speaking?
16:58
SPEAKER_02: So first question is how I go into public speaking by speaking.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: It sounds very obvious, but how did you get into it?
17:06
Like you went from being in the corporate world to an author
17:10
and now like you're,
17:11
SPEAKER_00: I guess,
17:12
SPEAKER_00: a world renowned public speaker.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: What was your journey to get there?
17:18
SPEAKER_02: When I left the corporate world and I used to work at Apple,
17:22
SPEAKER_02: I was at Estee Lauder for many years,
17:24
SPEAKER_02: I started writing.
17:25
And what I first realized is that it was really difficult to
17:29
get people to read my work.
17:30
SPEAKER_02: It was really difficult to find readers.
17:33
SPEAKER_02: And I had this realization.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: I was like, hey, communication is not just about writing.
17:38
There are so many people who have podcasts,
17:41
who have YouTube channels and so on.
17:42
SPEAKER_02: And so I said, well...
17:44
SPEAKER_02: Why not try to reach out to these different audiences through podcasts,
17:51
SPEAKER_02: through live sessions and so on?
17:53
SPEAKER_02: And so that's how it started.
17:54
SPEAKER_02: I didn't have this master plan of I'm going to become a public speaker.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: It was more a channel to try to reach new people.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: And so I started speaking on podcasts.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: I started doing LinkedIn lives.
18:06
I started speaking as well on YouTube interviews,
18:09
for example,
18:10
things like that.
18:11
So in that first step,
18:14
let's say,
18:14
that first phase,
18:15
it was really about practice.
18:17
SPEAKER_02: It was really about exposure.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: I'm an introvert,
18:19
SPEAKER_02: so speaking in podcasts,
18:21
SPEAKER_02: speaking in public,
18:22
SPEAKER_02: it was not something that came naturally to me.
18:25
SPEAKER_02: But then after six months, I realized that it was really powerful.
18:29
SPEAKER_02: When you share your story, you are reaching to more people.
18:32
SPEAKER_02: you're connecting, you're just building new bridges.
18:36
SPEAKER_02: And I thought that I wanted to take this to the next level.
18:40
The next level for me was actually start incorporating webinars
18:45
into my sub stack.
18:47
SPEAKER_02: So last week,
18:49
SPEAKER_02: It's only a year, a bit over a year.
18:51
I launched webinars for my paid subscribers and I had no idea
18:55
if it was going to work.
18:57
SPEAKER_02: But surprisingly,
18:58
the response was very positive because when you offer something
19:02
like that,
19:03
SPEAKER_02: a webinar where you can connect with people,
19:06
SPEAKER_02: it's much more premium.
19:07
You're giving people the opportunity to really connect with you
19:10
in a much more intimate setting.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: And I realized that there was really an opportunity there.
19:15
And then the third phase,
19:17
I went from speaking in public to podcasts and so on.
19:22
SPEAKER_02: Second phase was within my community.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: We still felt much more safer.
19:27
And then I think I'm ready now to go out there and put an offer
19:33
together for corporate.
19:35
SPEAKER_02: I decided to go for it.
19:36
SPEAKER_02: Because that was the life that I knew.
19:38
SPEAKER_02: I had been in the corporate world for over 15 years.
19:41
SPEAKER_02: I know very well how organizations work.
19:44
And so I decided to prepare some topics where I have expertise
19:48
and where I have
19:49
SPEAKER_02: credibility,
19:50
SPEAKER_02: both professional but also personally.
19:54
SPEAKER_02: And so I created my first workshops and keynotes.
19:57
And you asked in regards to what topics,
19:59
the topics that I have experience with.
20:02
SPEAKER_02: It could be leadership,
20:04
SPEAKER_02: communication,
20:05
cultural agility is another one that I do quite often because I
20:09
have lived in many
20:10
SPEAKER_02: countries.
20:10
SPEAKER_02: I have led multicultural teams.
20:13
SPEAKER_02: So as I said before, it was really repackaging my expertise in a way.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: that could really land for corporates.
20:20
SPEAKER_02: So speaking there, organization, what do companies want?
20:25
SPEAKER_02: They want to know how you can help their employees be more successful,
20:31
SPEAKER_02: how they can optimize the P&L,
20:35
SPEAKER_02: how they can sell better.
20:36
So it was always connecting to the language that lands with
20:40
organizations.
20:41
SPEAKER_02: And today I work with Fortune 500 companies.
20:44
SPEAKER_02: Like I've done...
20:46
SPEAKER_02: Talks for UBS, the bank, for S&P, the rating agency, for the EU.
20:51
SPEAKER_02: So it started very, very small and it started for free.
20:55
SPEAKER_02: But now it's really become the main income stream in my business.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: So you have like what, 13,000 subscribers?
21:05
SPEAKER_00: Is that looking at your sub stack, at your elementary mindset?
21:10
SPEAKER_00: Or no, your account has 13,000 subscribers, right?
21:13
SPEAKER_00: Something like this.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: Correct me if I'm mistaken.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: How did you manage... You have 13,000 subscribers.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: How did you manage to get so many subscribers?
21:26
SPEAKER_00: For me,
21:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm not as good as you,
21:30
but I have 3,000 subscribers and it took me a lot of sweat and
21:34
blood and tears to
21:36
SPEAKER_00: get to that number.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: So how did you get to have so many subscribers?
21:43
SPEAKER_02: So first,
21:44
SPEAKER_02: with a lot of work and with a long time,
21:45
SPEAKER_02: it actually took me a year to start to see a decent growth.
21:50
So in my first year,
21:51
I didn't even have 1,000 subscribers and then things started to
21:55
pick up.
21:56
SPEAKER_02: But it wasn't just random or it wasn't just be consistent.
22:00
Sometimes when I see this advice,
22:02
oh,
22:02
just be consistent and things will happen.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: Well,
22:04
maybe they don't because if you don't have a strategy and if
22:07
you don't really have
22:08
SPEAKER_02: like a clear plan,
22:09
being consistent is not enough and so things that helped me
22:13
first is after one year
22:15
i was so slow in my growth that i said okay we have to pause
22:18
and reassess and i
22:20
realized that i was treating my Substack like a hobby and i want
22:25
of a business and
22:27
SPEAKER_02: what i mean by
22:28
SPEAKER_02: And if you just want to write as a hobby, that's perfectly fine.
22:32
But I wanted my creativity to become my business because
22:37
otherwise I had to go back
22:38
SPEAKER_02: to the corporate world.
22:39
SPEAKER_02: I don't want that.
22:40
SPEAKER_02: And so I said, okay, I have to turn this into a business.
22:43
SPEAKER_02: So what does a business have?
22:45
SPEAKER_02: You need to have a clear vision.
22:46
SPEAKER_02: You need to define...
22:48
SPEAKER_02: who your audience is, who your ideal reader is.
22:51
SPEAKER_02: You need a strategy.
22:52
And so that's when I created my strategy,
22:55
focus on these specific pillars.
22:59
SPEAKER_02: And then that was the first thing.
23:01
And then from there,
23:02
I decided to really go big into the pillars of growth.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: So I identify what are the pillars that could help me grow, the drivers.
23:11
SPEAKER_02: Notes, for sure.
23:12
SPEAKER_02: And I started to be much more consistent on notes.
23:15
SPEAKER_02: But then I realized that there are other
23:18
SPEAKER_02: organic tools that can help you grow.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: Another one, for example, is partnering with other creators.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: I hadn't really done any collaboration for my first year and a half,
23:31
SPEAKER_02: which now,
23:32
SPEAKER_02: looking back,
23:32
SPEAKER_02: I think is crazy.
23:33
SPEAKER_02: It was just me trying to,
23:35
SPEAKER_02: you know,
23:35
SPEAKER_02: with the loudspeaker,
23:36
SPEAKER_02: come people,
23:37
SPEAKER_02: come to the Lemon Tree Mindset,
23:38
SPEAKER_02: not very successful.
23:40
And the moment I started to work with other writers,
23:42
and what I mean by work,
23:44
SPEAKER_02: guest posts,
23:45
SPEAKER_02: live sessions like we're doing today,
23:48
SPEAKER_02: joint webinars,
23:49
SPEAKER_02: things like this,
23:50
I started to grow so much faster because instead of just being
23:53
one person with a
23:54
SPEAKER_02: loudspeaker,
23:55
SPEAKER_02: all of a sudden I was reaching out to new communities.
23:58
SPEAKER_02: I was talking to different people who had their own subscribers.
24:02
SPEAKER_02: So collaboration for me has been a great opportunity.
24:05
SPEAKER_02: way to grow and get your of your comfort zone like what we're doing today
24:10
especially the first time you do it it's quite uncomfortable
24:13
going on a live
24:14
session there are strangers who show up and you don't know who
24:18
is on the other side
24:19
but things like these have actually helped me grow because it
24:22
really means that
24:23
you're putting yourself out there and you're not just in your
24:26
little echo chamber
24:27
SPEAKER_02: trying to get
24:29
SPEAKER_02: But you're actually putting yourself out there so that you can be more
24:33
SPEAKER_02: approachable,
24:34
SPEAKER_02: you can be more reachable,
24:35
SPEAKER_02: you can be more visible.
24:37
So in addition to notes,
24:39
you're saying collaboration is another book tool for you for
24:42
growth?
24:43
SPEAKER_00: Because everyone now is saying notes, notes, notes, notes.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: And you and I,
24:48
SPEAKER_00: we decided from the beginning before going live is that we're going to be
24:51
SPEAKER_00: completely honest.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: So I post notes all the time.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, as you said, I post whatever note strategy.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: I'll be walking the dog.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: Here's an idea.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I post two and I don't get much, you know.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: So I post two twice, like maybe a like here, a comment there.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm not seeing notes as what everyone is saying.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: That's the big secret to success on Substack is note.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: What I am actually seeing is Substack lives.
25:25
And why do I think personally Substack life has a bigger chance
25:30
of growth than notes?
25:31
SPEAKER_00: Because people see you.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: People know you're real.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: They hear my accent.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: They see, they feel my energy.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: They understand where I'm coming from.
25:43
And it builds more trust than random notes that can be easily
25:49
generated by an
25:51
SPEAKER_00: automation tool that can just pump notes all day long.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: So, I don't know, that has been my experience.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, notes are fine, but
26:02
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'm just doing them wrong.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe for me, I feel like for my style, I'm like very extrovert.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: And there was a question here.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: Somebody's asking about my accent.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: Where are you originally from?
26:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm originally Jordanian and we're known to be very extrovert.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: And so maybe, as you said, maybe it's also a matter of style.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: And my style works for going live rather than just posting random notes.
26:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: How do you feel about that?
26:34
SPEAKER_02: For me, it's a mix.
26:35
And the way that I like to look at it is like,
26:38
grab a,
26:39
take a book,
26:39
for example,
26:40
right?
26:41
SPEAKER_02: Some people, like me, like the actual book.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: You know, that's how I want to get out of the screen.
26:48
SPEAKER_02: Some of the people, they like the digital version.
26:51
SPEAKER_02: They love having it on their Kindle.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: Some people, like my husband, they love the audio.
26:55
SPEAKER_02: And so I always put myself in the shoes of the audience, right?
27:00
SPEAKER_02: Like designing.
27:02
with them and the thing is there are going to be people in the
27:06
public like those
27:07
who are joining us today that like this type of engagement
27:12
because of all the
27:12
reasons you mentioned it's not perfect and they can hear our
27:16
accent and all these
27:17
SPEAKER_02: different things and so that's great because we're able to really cater
27:20
SPEAKER_02: to that audience.
27:21
SPEAKER_02: But then there are people,
27:23
SPEAKER_02: many people,
27:24
SPEAKER_02: who don't like videos,
27:25
SPEAKER_02: don't like lives,
27:27
SPEAKER_02: nothing like that.
27:28
I actually wrote a post recently about the changes that I see
27:32
on Substack in 2026,
27:34
SPEAKER_02: and I did mention that multimedia is a huge thing.
27:37
SPEAKER_02: I had so much backlash.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: There's an entire opposition movement.
27:42
SPEAKER_02: It was so toxic that I didn't have comments anymore.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: But it's true.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: That group of people is there.
27:48
SPEAKER_02: And they are the purists.
27:49
SPEAKER_02: And they only want to write.
27:51
SPEAKER_02: They only want to read.
27:52
SPEAKER_02: I encourage you to check the post, actually.
27:54
SPEAKER_02: It's quite funny to see all the comments.
27:57
SPEAKER_02: No one is right or wrong.
27:58
SPEAKER_02: That's their preference.
27:59
And as creators,
28:01
we have to be smart about it and not try to alienate people.
28:05
What I try to do,
28:06
for example,
28:07
after my live sessions is a very good example.
28:09
SPEAKER_02: I don't just publish the live sessions.
28:12
I publish the live sessions and I add a really nice summary
28:16
with the key takeaways
28:17
SPEAKER_02: so that I'm not alienating anyone.
28:19
And those who want to watch the video because that's their
28:23
favorite format,
28:24
they can do that.
28:25
SPEAKER_02: But those who like to write, to read,
28:27
SPEAKER_02: they can also get value from it.
28:29
SPEAKER_02: And so for me,
28:30
SPEAKER_02: to answer your question,
28:32
SPEAKER_02: it's not either or,
28:33
it's different formats and different ways of connecting with
28:38
people so that you can
28:39
SPEAKER_02: reach to everyone instead of those who want notes.
28:42
SPEAKER_02: Is it only notes?
28:48
SPEAKER_02: The reality of notes is that it's a numbers game.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: Like you said, oh, sometimes my notes don't get any lies.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes mine don't either.
28:55
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, oh, should I delete it?
28:56
SPEAKER_02: But I never delete a note because it can always reach someone.
29:01
But I think it's important to use and leverage the different
29:06
channels that you have
29:07
SPEAKER_02: to reach to people.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
29:09
So I saw your post about your book launch and there were some
29:17
logistical issues
29:19
SPEAKER_00: changing the room.
29:20
SPEAKER_00: And it was a very honest post that I loved seeing.
29:24
And you got lots of comments and people like the reality of
29:29
instead of the
29:30
SPEAKER_00: the kind of social media reality that some people post about,
29:35
SPEAKER_00: like,
29:35
SPEAKER_00: look how wonderful my life is.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: And I, of course, I love it.
29:39
So I am going to go and ask some existential questions and
29:45
we're going to go deep here.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: So, okay.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: So last week, Amazon laid off, I think, around 20 or 30,000 people.
29:56
SPEAKER_00: And I live in the U.S.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: and there's a government shutdown.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: And I live near Washington, D.C., in the service of Washington, D.C.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: So all of my neighborhood is on furlough,
30:07
SPEAKER_00: unemployed,
30:08
SPEAKER_00: because the government shuts and nobody's working,
30:11
SPEAKER_00: right?
30:12
SPEAKER_00: So what this is telling us is many things.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: First, the whole idea of working a corporate job is safe.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: That's no longer the case.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: The nine-to-five work structure is becoming antiquated,
30:30
SPEAKER_00: built through maybe the Ford factory mentality,
30:36
SPEAKER_00: and it's all shifting,
30:37
SPEAKER_00: especially now AI taking jobs.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: So there's a huge push for entrepreneurship.
30:44
There's a huge push for designing your own life where you make
30:49
your creativity do
30:50
SPEAKER_00: the work or you become a digital creator and all of that.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: And it's becoming louder and louder these days.
30:57
SPEAKER_00: That being said,
30:59
SPEAKER_00: how sustainable is it to make an income,
31:05
SPEAKER_00: not only like an income that you can use to raise a family,
31:10
SPEAKER_00: maybe take vacations,
31:12
SPEAKER_00: own a house or whatever,
31:14
SPEAKER_00: While everyone telling you,
31:16
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
31:16
SPEAKER_00: I made six figures by launching my course,
31:19
SPEAKER_00: I sent my email to my subscribers and suddenly got 20,000.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of that chatter online,
31:25
SPEAKER_00: especially from the bros,
31:26
SPEAKER_00: as we call them,
31:27
SPEAKER_00: the tech bros.
31:30
SPEAKER_00: So how sustainable is that?
31:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:33
SPEAKER_00: Can everyone do it?
31:35
Or is it this for only a few people who are willing to play the
31:39
long game and who
31:40
SPEAKER_00: have the mindset set to do this?
31:43
Or is it now everyone has to be an entrepreneur because of all
31:47
these reasons that I mentioned?
31:49
SPEAKER_02: That's such a good point and question,
31:52
SPEAKER_02: Natasha,
31:53
SPEAKER_02: because,
31:53
SPEAKER_02: yes,
31:53
SPEAKER_02: I think that there's this movement towards solopreneurship where,
31:58
SPEAKER_02: one,
31:59
SPEAKER_02: it's glorified,
32:00
SPEAKER_02: but both of these bros,
32:02
SPEAKER_02: as you call the ex-bros,
32:05
SPEAKER_02: we tend to think that it's easy.
32:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:08
There are all these promises of you can make six figures in
32:11
three months and things like this.
32:13
SPEAKER_02: So is it sustainable?
32:14
SPEAKER_02: It can be sustainable.
32:16
SPEAKER_02: But I think the things that you mentioned are so important,
32:19
SPEAKER_02: like the mindset,
32:20
SPEAKER_02: wanting to put in the work and all of that.
32:23
SPEAKER_02: And I can talk about my experience.
32:26
SPEAKER_02: And I know that for the first time,
32:28
SPEAKER_02: Three months, I barely made any money.
32:31
SPEAKER_02: After six months,
32:32
SPEAKER_02: I was able to pay some bills and it took me two years,
32:36
SPEAKER_02: two years to actually have a decent income from what I do,
32:41
SPEAKER_02: which by the way,
32:42
SPEAKER_02: is still not at the levels that it was in the corporate world.
32:45
I have some months that I was able to make more,
32:48
but most months I'm still not there.
32:50
SPEAKER_02: So I think
32:52
trying to listen to real stories to manage your expectations is
32:56
so important
32:57
SPEAKER_02: because so many people quit thinking that after six months,
33:00
SPEAKER_02: they are going to be making a good income.
33:03
SPEAKER_02: And that's unrealistic.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: So I think it's important to
33:08
SPEAKER_02: to manage the expectations.
33:11
SPEAKER_02: Also, many of the people who are listening today are probably writers.
33:16
SPEAKER_02: And as I mentioned first,
33:18
when you hear these stories of people who have a writing
33:22
business and they make six
33:23
SPEAKER_02: figures,
33:24
SPEAKER_02: it's usually not just a writing business.
33:27
SPEAKER_02: You really have to evolve
33:29
SPEAKER_02: and think bigger than just writing.
33:31
SPEAKER_02: Because let's be honest here,
33:33
SPEAKER_02: a book like this one,
33:34
SPEAKER_02: it might be five US dollars,
33:36
SPEAKER_02: the ebook,
33:37
SPEAKER_02: it might be 15,
33:39
SPEAKER_02: $20,
33:39
SPEAKER_02: the paper bag,
33:40
SPEAKER_02: or with a publisher,
33:41
SPEAKER_02: or with Amazon,
33:43
SPEAKER_02: they still take quite a bit of profit themselves.
33:46
SPEAKER_02: And so writing is hard.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: Same with, let's take the example of Substack and the paid subscriptions.
33:55
SPEAKER_02: People are obsessed with paid subscribers, but the reality is,
33:59
when you look at the figures out there is that the conversion
34:02
from free to paid is
34:04
SPEAKER_02: only around two to 3%.
34:05
SPEAKER_02: Many,
34:07
below that so what here is that if you have a thousand
34:12
subscribers chances are
34:14
SPEAKER_02: you're only going to have between 20 and 30 paid subscribers again manage
34:19
expectations so with this i think it's just really important to
34:23
think bigger and
34:25
how you can start generating different income streams and i
34:29
think that's where to
34:31
SPEAKER_02: your point is it sustainable for it to be sustainable it has to be more
34:36
SPEAKER_02: usually than just one income stream with just writing.
34:40
SPEAKER_02: And that's where, in my experience, things really started to speed up.
34:45
SPEAKER_02: Once I started having digital products,
34:47
SPEAKER_02: digital courses in my case,
34:49
because now you go from a $5 ebook to a course that is maybe
34:54
$88 or one of my
34:56
SPEAKER_02: latest courses is over $100.
34:57
SPEAKER_02: It's not a lot, but the numbers start to add up and make more sense.
35:04
SPEAKER_02: public speaking in my case,
35:05
I realized that a very smart way to double down on monetization
35:11
is by having a high
35:12
SPEAKER_02: value offer.
35:15
SPEAKER_02: With B2B,
35:16
it's easier because companies are usually willing to pay much
35:19
higher for a service,
35:21
SPEAKER_02: whether it's a workshop,
35:22
SPEAKER_02: could be consulting,
35:24
SPEAKER_02: it could be corporate coaching for their executives,
35:26
SPEAKER_02: for example.
35:27
SPEAKER_02: So that's where you start to have
35:29
SPEAKER_02: high-value ticket.
35:30
SPEAKER_02: But you have to be very strategic if you want this to be sustainable.
35:35
SPEAKER_02: Otherwise,
35:35
SPEAKER_02: it's going to be a nice side income,
35:38
SPEAKER_02: but the sustainability is probably not going to be there.
35:41
SPEAKER_02: So diversifying,
35:42
having different type of offers with high-value offers as well
35:48
as low-value offers
35:50
SPEAKER_02: that it's
35:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:52
So when it comes to approaching or talking public speaking with
35:57
these corporations,
35:59
SPEAKER_00: do you approach them?
36:00
SPEAKER_00: Do you pitch to them?
36:01
Do you like go and like find me a company in Hong Kong that
36:05
wants a public like how
36:07
SPEAKER_00: how do you get into the door?
36:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm getting all your secrets here for free.
36:13
Okay.
36:13
Okay.
36:16
SPEAKER_02: It's always very hard to share because the more I share for free,
36:20
SPEAKER_02: the more actually people come to me and say,
36:22
SPEAKER_02: hey,
36:22
SPEAKER_02: Ronica,
36:22
SPEAKER_02: I love what you talked about.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: You want to be my course.
36:25
SPEAKER_02: So it's my free publicity.
36:27
SPEAKER_02: So I don't mind sharing everything.
36:29
SPEAKER_02: My strategy is quite different,
36:31
SPEAKER_02: actually,
36:31
SPEAKER_02: from what you see out there,
36:33
SPEAKER_02: meaning I only have two main channels.
36:37
SPEAKER_02: One is Substack.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: One is LinkedIn.
36:39
SPEAKER_02: Substack is from my B2C business.
36:42
SPEAKER_02: That's where I talk about writing, books, creating, publishing courses.
36:46
SPEAKER_02: So that's that channel.
36:48
SPEAKER_02: My public speaking happens on LinkedIn.
36:50
SPEAKER_02: And this is...
36:53
SPEAKER_02: because on LinkedIn is where my stakeholders are going to be.
36:59
SPEAKER_02: And who are my stakeholders as a public speaker?
37:02
Heads of HR,
37:03
heads of people,
37:04
chief of staff,
37:05
learning and development,
37:06
that's where they are.
37:08
SPEAKER_02: And so I want to be seen there as a public speaker.
37:11
SPEAKER_02: So my strategy is to create a lot of content on LinkedIn,
37:15
SPEAKER_02: You can find me there.
37:16
And you can see that my profile there is quite funny because
37:19
it's different from Substack.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: It screams public speaker.
37:22
SPEAKER_02: I have a microphone.
37:23
SPEAKER_02: I use the icon of the microphone.
37:26
SPEAKER_02: I have a banner where you see me speaking.
37:29
SPEAKER_02: My call to action is see my previous engagement.
37:32
SPEAKER_02: So I do a lot of content that works as the lead magnet.
37:36
SPEAKER_02: So that ideally I attract my stakeholders.
37:40
SPEAKER_02: Now,
37:40
having a LinkedIn profile is not enough because especially in
37:44
the B2B world,
37:45
SPEAKER_02: that's just the top of the funnel.
37:47
SPEAKER_02: They're going to want to see who is this woman?
37:50
SPEAKER_02: What is her credibility?
37:52
SPEAKER_02: Does she have testimonials?
37:54
SPEAKER_02: Where has she spoken before?
37:55
SPEAKER_02: So my LinkedIn leads to my website,
37:58
SPEAKER_02: which is exclusively dedicated to my work as a public speaker.
38:02
SPEAKER_02: And that's how I attract my clients.
38:08
SPEAKER_02: Should I pitch and reach out?
38:10
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I should do more of that, but I don't like it.
38:13
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm not someone who likes to go out there, reach out, pitch.
38:19
SPEAKER_02: So what I try to do is create a lot of content, put myself out there.
38:23
SPEAKER_02: I speak on conferences, chambers of commerce, associations, you name it.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: All these opportunities that give me exposure.
38:32
SPEAKER_02: So that's my second.
38:34
SPEAKER_02: So I have LinkedIn, my website, a lot of appearances.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: And I work with SEO, just myself.
38:41
I don't hire anyone,
38:42
but I know that I want to be found as a leadership speaker in
38:46
Hong Kong.
38:47
SPEAKER_02: or communication speaker Asia.
38:50
So I know the keywords that I want to be known for so that when
38:53
people Google,
38:54
when people go to search engine and they're looking for that
38:57
type of profile for
38:58
SPEAKER_02: their event,
38:59
SPEAKER_02: I come up in the first page.
39:01
SPEAKER_02: So that's my strategy.
39:02
SPEAKER_02: Very intentional.
39:03
SPEAKER_02: It's very B2B and B2C.
39:05
SPEAKER_02: That's why I say it's different, but it works.
39:09
SPEAKER_00: I like that.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
39:11
SPEAKER_00: When do you think somebody should give up?
39:14
SPEAKER_00: And you say, you know what?
39:16
SPEAKER_00: I probably should go back to the corporate world.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: This thing is just not working for me.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: And I've seen it happen, honestly.
39:24
I've seen it happen with a number of creators that try really,
39:27
really hard.
39:29
SPEAKER_00: And then just the math does not work at the end of the day.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: And...
39:36
SPEAKER_00: What do you think went wrong in this case?
39:40
SPEAKER_00: And do you think giving up sometimes is the best option?
39:46
SPEAKER_00: And going back to the corporate world.
39:49
SPEAKER_02: I have to answer that because I do have friends who are in that position.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:54
SPEAKER_02: Unlike the word give up,
39:56
SPEAKER_02: I don't think is the right approach because if you love something,
40:00
SPEAKER_02: then I don't think you should ever give up on it.
40:03
SPEAKER_02: Now,
40:04
SPEAKER_02: if we go backwards a little bit,
40:06
SPEAKER_02: what very often happens,
40:07
SPEAKER_02: and yesterday I was talking to a friend who did exactly that.
40:10
She quit a really good job at Google after four years there to
40:14
start a business,
40:15
SPEAKER_02: a coaching business from scratch.
40:17
SPEAKER_02: And I didn't say that in the moment,
40:19
SPEAKER_02: but what I thought is like,
40:20
SPEAKER_02: oh,
40:21
why would you quit your safety check when this is the perfect
40:25
opportunity for you
40:26
SPEAKER_02: to build on the site?
40:28
SPEAKER_02: So what I would say is get to that situation.
40:30
SPEAKER_02: Oh, this didn't work.
40:32
SPEAKER_02: Minimize the risk.
40:33
And for those of you who are still in the corporate world,
40:35
it's an amazing opportunity.
40:37
to have that cushion and start building your side gig on the
40:42
side so that you don't
40:44
SPEAKER_02: find yourself in the situation that you're describing.
40:46
SPEAKER_02: So if you can build on the side like many people are doing,
40:50
SPEAKER_02: I think that's a really smart way to go about it.
40:53
SPEAKER_02: Now,
40:54
SPEAKER_02: if we put ourselves in the situation that you just described,
40:56
SPEAKER_02: so you've been trying this,
40:58
SPEAKER_02: let's say,
40:58
SPEAKER_02: for a year,
40:59
SPEAKER_02: the math are not working,
41:00
SPEAKER_02: the numbers are not adding up,
41:02
SPEAKER_02: and you find yourself in the situation where you have to come back
41:06
I think that there's no shame and the way that you could look
41:09
at it is like,
41:10
SPEAKER_02: okay,
41:11
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to go back to the corporate world.
41:13
SPEAKER_02: Ideally,
41:13
SPEAKER_02: if you can do something like a part-time job,
41:16
I think that's ideal so that at least you have enough income to
41:21
pay the bills and
41:22
SPEAKER_02: you can keep building on the side.
41:24
SPEAKER_02: I think trying to have maybe this mindset where it's not all or nothing,
41:29
but you're trying to still build on the side and adjust to the
41:33
life that you have.
41:34
SPEAKER_02: For me,
41:35
SPEAKER_02: for example,
41:35
SPEAKER_02: in my case,
41:36
the reason why I was able to survive my first year of solo
41:39
partnership is because I
41:41
SPEAKER_02: already had savings from 15 years.
41:44
SPEAKER_02: I also have a husband.
41:45
SPEAKER_02: We're a team.
41:46
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't just me.
41:47
SPEAKER_02: I'm very candid and open that if I didn't have any financial cushion,
41:51
SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't have survived after six months.
41:53
And so I think it's okay to be honest with yourself,
41:56
with your situation.
41:57
SPEAKER_02: Make these adjustments.
41:59
SPEAKER_02: If you have to go back to the corporate world, don't give up.
42:02
SPEAKER_02: Keep doing it on this.
42:03
SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's one hour in the morning.
42:05
SPEAKER_02: I wake up at five so that I can exercise before my kids go to school.
42:09
SPEAKER_02: So you can find ways to make it work.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
42:13
But please do not give up because that really breaks my heart
42:16
when people tell me,
42:17
SPEAKER_02: oh,
42:17
SPEAKER_02: Veronica,
42:17
SPEAKER_02: I have to go back to the corporate world.
42:19
SPEAKER_02: And I'm going to stop my writing.
42:21
SPEAKER_02: Don't.
42:21
SPEAKER_02: That's your passion.
42:23
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that's where the future of work is headed in terms of,
42:29
SPEAKER_00: especially with the advent of AI and the push for entrepreneurship,
42:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:36
SPEAKER_00: the constant layoff,
42:38
SPEAKER_00: the lack of security?
42:39
Do you think like the generation of our kids and maybe
42:43
grandkids and great
42:44
SPEAKER_00: grandkids,
42:46
SPEAKER_00: do you think at the end of the day,
42:47
SPEAKER_00: we're all going to be entrepreneurs?
42:49
SPEAKER_00: We're all going to be millionaires.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: No, but is that where the,
42:53
SPEAKER_00: where the future is headed in terms of future work.
43:00
SPEAKER_02: There are a lot of interesting studies,
43:02
sociologists who say that the future of work is going to be
43:06
solopreneurship.
43:07
I think we're always going to need a certain part of the
43:10
population for government
43:12
SPEAKER_02: and all that part of the public services.
43:15
SPEAKER_02: But yes,
43:16
SPEAKER_02: I think more and more the young generations,
43:19
SPEAKER_02: they want to do something that really feels it's their own thing.
43:23
SPEAKER_02: They want to have more purpose.
43:24
SPEAKER_02: They want to have more freedom.
43:26
SPEAKER_02: I think that the mindset is really changing.
43:29
And this idea,
43:30
just the idea of the 9 to 5,
43:32
we're just starting to realize that it's not human.
43:36
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't make a lot of sense.
43:37
What makes sense is to focus much more on output and
43:41
productivity rather than
43:42
SPEAKER_02: having someone sitting on a desk from 9 a.m.
43:45
SPEAKER_02: to 5 p.m.
43:47
SPEAKER_02: just because that's what it says in the contract.
43:50
SPEAKER_02: So yes,
43:50
SPEAKER_02: when I look at the new generations,
43:52
SPEAKER_02: I think that a lot of them are going to want to do their own thing.
43:57
Also,
43:58
because to your point before,
43:59
the narrative of the corporate world is a safety card.
44:04
SPEAKER_02: It's BS.
44:05
SPEAKER_02: That's not true anymore.
44:07
SPEAKER_02: I was made redundant when I was pregnant.
44:08
SPEAKER_02: It was a Fortune 500 company.
44:11
SPEAKER_02: So many people,
44:11
they're made redundant because there's a crisis or because they
44:15
need to do,
44:16
SPEAKER_02: I love this term,
44:17
SPEAKER_02: the P&L re-engineering.
44:19
SPEAKER_02: I mean, call it however you want, you're sacking thousands of people.
44:22
SPEAKER_02: So this is not there anymore.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you do a lot, right?
44:31
You know,
44:31
you have the business,
44:32
you have the kids,
44:35
you travel,
44:36
you publish books.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: How do you manage your time?
44:40
SPEAKER_00: I notice you're very athletic.
44:44
SPEAKER_00: You run.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I barely run.
44:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, probably the maximum I ran was 10 miles.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: But I'm working towards half marathon.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: So anyways, but...
44:55
SPEAKER_00: Do you think what is actually pushing you to be such a high achiever?
45:02
SPEAKER_00: Do you think your focus on your infrastructure,
45:05
SPEAKER_00: which is your health,
45:06
SPEAKER_00: your body,
45:08
SPEAKER_00: which eventually energizes you,
45:11
SPEAKER_00: you know,
45:12
SPEAKER_00: mental health,
45:13
SPEAKER_00: all of that is one of the biggest challenges?
45:15
SPEAKER_00: Reason for your success?
45:16
SPEAKER_00: Because usually when I coach people,
45:18
SPEAKER_00: one of the first things I tell them is make sure you go to the gym.
45:21
SPEAKER_00: Make sure you go outside.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: Make sure that's where the creativity flows.
45:28
SPEAKER_00: So what's your secret?
45:30
What's the secret to your success and to you being such a high
45:34
achiever and being
45:35
SPEAKER_00: an anti-procrastinator?
45:38
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
45:39
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for that, for that comment, Natasha.
45:42
And so,
45:43
yes,
45:43
part of it is knowing yourself and what you need to be at your
45:47
best.
45:48
SPEAKER_02: In this society,
45:49
SPEAKER_02: we're always talking about productivity,
45:52
SPEAKER_02: results,
45:52
SPEAKER_02: output,
45:53
SPEAKER_02: but this is an equation,
45:55
SPEAKER_02: right?
45:55
SPEAKER_02: Like if you want to get output,
45:56
SPEAKER_02: the other question,
45:57
SPEAKER_02: the logical question is then what is the input?
46:01
SPEAKER_02: What is the input?
46:02
SPEAKER_02: And
46:03
pausing to understand what you need to be at your best is so
46:07
important what do you
46:08
need to be at your best for me I know that I need to have a
46:11
good sleep so I try not
46:13
to compromise my sleep I like to wake up in the morning I do a
46:17
lot of exercise
46:18
because that really helps me be focused it helps me find
46:22
clarity I always say that
46:23
SPEAKER_02: my run starts with a problem and then with a solution because most of my
46:28
actually happens in the morning like i went swimming this
46:30
morning for one and a
46:31
half hour because i'm dressed it's so boring but then that's
46:37
your me time that's
46:38
when you can really focus on troubleshooting on brainstorming
46:42
with yourself so i
46:44
find that physical exercise is huge it gives you a lot of
46:47
clarity the other thing
46:49
SPEAKER_02: is being very passionate about uh
46:52
SPEAKER_02: what you want to achieve, like having this clear purpose.
46:54
SPEAKER_02: Like for me,
46:55
when I think about the work that I'm doing and how I'm really
46:59
trying to enable and
47:01
inspire and encourage people to turn their creativity into
47:05
their lifestyle is
47:06
SPEAKER_02: something that really excites me.
47:08
SPEAKER_02: That's why when I come to this session today, I'm full of energy.
47:12
When I go to the one-to-one sessions with my clients,
47:15
I really feel that I can give my 100%.
47:17
SPEAKER_02: And it also means saying no to certain things.
47:22
and having your boundaries for example here i decided to remove
47:26
the noise and i was
47:27
on all these different platforms medium x and i said no i don't
47:31
need all of these
47:32
SPEAKER_02: just
47:33
SPEAKER_02: where you can give your best and you can be really focused.
47:36
As I said before,
47:37
for me,
47:37
Substack for my B2C business,
47:40
LinkedIn for my B2B business.
47:42
SPEAKER_02: And so knowing when to say no, knowing how to protect your time.
47:46
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes when people ask me for,
47:48
SPEAKER_02: it might be a podcast or whatever it might be,
47:51
SPEAKER_02: and it doesn't suit me in that moment,
47:53
SPEAKER_02: I have to protect my time.
47:54
And I've learned to say no in a way that is not disrespectful
47:58
because I am
47:59
SPEAKER_02: respecting my time and my
48:03
SPEAKER_02: And so I think learning to say no,
48:05
SPEAKER_02: especially as women,
48:06
SPEAKER_02: we tend to be people pleaser very often.
48:09
SPEAKER_02: I know that I'm still recovering from that.
48:13
And so that you can really say yes to the things that really
48:16
matter to you and give your best.
48:18
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know,
48:19
SPEAKER_02: Natasha,
48:19
SPEAKER_02: if it's your experience,
48:21
SPEAKER_02: but when you're able to say no to the things that you're like,
48:25
SPEAKER_02: you can really give 100% like both of us are doing today.
48:29
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for saying yes to me.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
48:35
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so we've been talking for a while.
48:37
SPEAKER_00: I know you're a very busy woman.
48:39
So before we conclude,
48:42
what does the future hold for you and for the lemon tree
48:47
mindset?
48:48
SPEAKER_00: What are your future projects?
48:50
SPEAKER_00: What you're working on these days?
48:53
SPEAKER_00: And I also wanted to ask, are you going to do more Spanish?
48:57
SPEAKER_00: You were, you were originally from Spain, from, from which, from Spain.
49:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: Where from Spain?
49:07
SPEAKER_00: Canary Islands.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: Canary Islands.
49:10
SPEAKER_00: Oh, nice.
49:11
SPEAKER_00: So,
49:13
SPEAKER_00: Where are you going to go with having two languages?
49:16
Because I always think as well about,
49:19
should I do more in Arabic or focus on English?
49:23
SPEAKER_00: Or am I alienating the audience?
49:25
SPEAKER_00: So I want to also hear about that.
49:28
SPEAKER_02: Yes, and I think that's a beautiful way to wrap up today's session.
49:32
SPEAKER_02: So just to give a little bit of context,
49:33
SPEAKER_02: I just celebrated my first year of my Spanish sub-stack,
49:38
SPEAKER_02: which is the Spanish version of the Lemon Tree Mindset.
49:41
SPEAKER_02: It's called El Limonero, so Spanish 101 in Spanish.
49:46
SPEAKER_02: And it's been an incredible experience.
49:49
SPEAKER_02: I had never written in Spanish anywhere else.
49:52
And I just celebrated with over 2,500 subscribers,
49:57
which I think is incredible.
50:00
SPEAKER_02: Very small.
50:01
SPEAKER_02: A language that is not even the second language.
50:03
SPEAKER_02: It's the third language on Substack after English and Portuguese.
50:07
SPEAKER_02: So when you're asking me about what's next, I want to keep...
50:11
SPEAKER_02: growing the lemon tree in English as it is,
50:14
SPEAKER_02: and following what I'm doing,
50:17
SPEAKER_02: scaling,
50:18
SPEAKER_02: trying to reach more people.
50:19
SPEAKER_02: So I think I have a pretty solid strategy there that's working.
50:23
SPEAKER_02: And now I'm reproducing the same for Spanish.
50:27
SPEAKER_02: So I'm finding that there's a really great opportunity.
50:30
I'm finding that for those of you who speak a second language
50:33
and are considering
50:34
SPEAKER_02: to launch a publication,
50:36
SPEAKER_02: Substack,
50:37
SPEAKER_02: it's still kind of one to two years behind for all the languages.
50:41
SPEAKER_02: And that gives us an incredible competitive advantage.
50:45
SPEAKER_02: For me,
50:45
SPEAKER_02: in Spanish,
50:46
I feel that I really have the first mover advantage because
50:48
there are not that many
50:49
SPEAKER_02: people who put near us
50:52
And I think part of my relative success in Spanish was just
50:57
being there early.
50:58
SPEAKER_02: And I already have my English strategy, which works.
51:03
So I was just following the same path,
51:07
adjusting,
51:07
of course,
51:08
to my audience.
51:09
But I'm very,
51:09
very excited to now kind of go into my bilingual journey with
51:14
the Spanish one.
51:15
SPEAKER_00: So basically, you kept your profile.
51:17
SPEAKER_00: You just started a new publication in Spanish.
51:21
SPEAKER_00: So you did not create a new profile and all of that.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a very good idea.
51:34
SPEAKER_00: What about in terms of books?
51:36
SPEAKER_00: Are you going to keep publishing books?
51:38
SPEAKER_00: Do you have any plans for that?
51:41
SPEAKER_02: So yes, I will keep publishing books.
51:44
SPEAKER_02: But to be honest,
51:45
SPEAKER_02: one of the most important things as an author,
51:47
SPEAKER_02: and you know this,
51:48
SPEAKER_02: is that it's not only about publishing.
51:50
SPEAKER_02: It's really about keep promoting your book.
51:54
Like for The Anti-Procrastinator,
51:55
I launched it in February and I'm still in launch mode.
52:00
SPEAKER_02: So for me, this launch campaign, let's say it lasts a year.
52:04
SPEAKER_02: So to give you an example, in January, I'm going to go to Delhi.
52:08
SPEAKER_02: to the World Book Fair,
52:10
SPEAKER_02: I think I mentioned this before,
52:13
SPEAKER_02: to promote my book,
52:15
SPEAKER_02: Penguin India is actually printing 1000 copies.
52:20
SPEAKER_02: And they told me, you just have to come here and sell them.
52:24
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, okay, we have a deal.
52:26
SPEAKER_02: That's what we're going to do.
52:27
SPEAKER_02: So my point being is that writing books is great,
52:31
SPEAKER_02: but you also have to do a lot of the heavy lifting afterwards.
52:34
SPEAKER_02: And I'm still in that phase of,
52:36
SPEAKER_02: okay,
52:36
SPEAKER_02: you know,
52:37
SPEAKER_02: flex the muscle,
52:38
SPEAKER_02: go out there,
52:39
SPEAKER_02: go to literary festivals,
52:40
SPEAKER_02: talk about your book.
52:42
SPEAKER_02: So I think I still have a lot of work to do.
52:44
SPEAKER_02: Once I'm done with this, then yes, my goal is to keep
52:48
SPEAKER_02: to keep writing because I think being an author,
52:50
SPEAKER_02: it's not just the,
52:51
SPEAKER_02: the action of writing a book is,
52:53
SPEAKER_02: is the mindset and the lifestyle.
52:55
SPEAKER_02: And once you start, it kind of becomes part of what you do.
52:58
SPEAKER_02: It really becomes part of who you are.
53:00
SPEAKER_02: Like for me, I'm a triathlete.
53:02
Now that I have kids,
53:02
I do less races,
53:04
but I'm still,
53:05
it's part of what I do.
53:06
Like this month I'm going to do to Thailand to do a triathlon
53:09
because it's not just
53:10
SPEAKER_02: about ticking boxes.
53:11
SPEAKER_02: It's really about living life the way that fulfills you.
53:15
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
53:16
SPEAKER_00: Well, I have to say this has been really inspiring.
53:20
And I think you inspired me as well to maybe start a sub-stack
53:27
in Arabic because,
53:27
SPEAKER_00: as you said,
53:28
SPEAKER_00: there's hardly anyone in Arabic.
53:31
SPEAKER_00: Mucho gusto.
53:32
SPEAKER_00: También tenemos que hablar en español.
53:34
SPEAKER_00: Hablo un poco de español, pero tenemos que practicar ahora.
53:39
Fui a Madrid hace mucho tiempo,
53:41
en 90,
53:42
I think,
53:42
ahí aprendí español con...
53:45
SPEAKER_00: How is my Spanish?
53:48
SPEAKER_02: Wow, amazing.
53:53
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so I like that idea.
53:56
SPEAKER_00: But anyways, thank you very, very much, Veronica.
54:00
SPEAKER_00: This has been amazing.
54:03
SPEAKER_00: This has been inspiring and uplifting.
54:08
SPEAKER_00: I've been kind of feeling a bit...
54:11
discouraged maybe especially seeing all the huge successes that
54:16
everyone is having
54:16
and it was nice to just speak freely and honestly and you know
54:22
the ups and downs of
54:24
SPEAKER_00: the whole journey and for anyone who is watching us please please
54:30
SPEAKER_00: Make sure to subscribe to Veronica's multiple publications.
54:35
SPEAKER_00: Follow her on Substack.
54:38
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, please make your plug here.
54:39
SPEAKER_00: Tell them the name of your publication.
54:43
SPEAKER_00: How can people reach you, Veronica?
54:47
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Sal.
54:48
SPEAKER_02: I'm welcoming everyone in my lemma group.
54:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and thank you, everyone.
54:56
SPEAKER_00: And until we meet again, and I know it's like, what, 9 a.m.
55:01
SPEAKER_00: in Hong Kong?
55:02
SPEAKER_00: It's 9 p.m.
55:03
SPEAKER_00: here.
55:04
SPEAKER_00: So in the suburbs of Washington,
55:06
SPEAKER_00: D.C.,
55:07
SPEAKER_00: in Rockville,
55:07
SPEAKER_00: Maryland,
55:08
SPEAKER_00: where the government is shut down and no one is working.
55:13
SPEAKER_00: So anyways, enjoy the rest of the day, and I will see you on Substack.
55:18
SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
55:20
SPEAKER_00: Take care.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: Bye-bye.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: Bye.