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Mark Carney · The David Rubenstein Show

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: One of the most admired, respected, and busiest global leaders
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: in the world is Mark Carney. He served for a
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: number of years as the Governor of the Bank of
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Canada for a number of additional years as the Governor
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: of the Bank of England. He currently serves as a
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Special UN Envoy for Climate Action Finance, and he also
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: chairs Brookfield Asset Management. I had a chance to sit
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  Speaker 1: down with Mark recently to talk about how he does
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  Speaker 1: all these things so well, Mark has been the Bank
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: of Canada governor, been the governor of the Bank of England.
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  Speaker 1: Has anybody ever been the governor of two different central
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  Speaker 1: banks in two different countries.
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  Speaker 2: No, I don't think so.
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  Speaker 1: And so in addition to that, in addition to that,
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  Speaker 1: you are also the chairman of Brookfield Asset Management, and
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  Speaker 1: you are the new chairman of Bloomberg. So you obviously
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  Speaker 1: like b Bank of Canada, Bank of England, Bloomberg and Brookfield.
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  Speaker 1: But there's a story in the latest edition of a
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  Speaker 1: Canadian newspaper like two days ago that's saying that you
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  Speaker 1: might also be the next Prime Minister of Canada.
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  Speaker 2: So any interest in that in the story, not in
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  Speaker 2: the story per se. The you know, It's interesting you
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  Speaker 2: you say the same thing over and over, but it
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  Speaker 2: gets heard differently in different contexts. And I think that
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  Speaker 2: story is probably more indication of the current environment in Canada.
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  Speaker 3: In other words, you wouldn't be uninterested in that.
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  Speaker 2: I'm interested that we have an effective prime minister in Kenada. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: so Prime Minister Trudeau, and you know him. I know
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  Speaker 2: him well, yes, and he's done very so.
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  Speaker 1: But we'll take that as maybe all right, so I
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  Speaker 1: won't pursue that anymore. All right, let me ask you,
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  Speaker 1: as the Bank of England governor and as the Bank
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  Speaker 1: of Canada governor, do you think the other the central
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  Speaker 1: banks recently figured out that inflation was more serious than
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  Speaker 1: it was too late? Or do you think they recognized
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  Speaker 1: early when it was going to be serious they just
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  Speaker 1: didn't do enough about it.
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  Speaker 3: No.
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  Speaker 2: I think in hindsight they realized it too late. They
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  Speaker 2: were operating under the old paradigm, if you will. It
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  Speaker 2: was an issue of not enough demand, and that is
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  Speaker 2: something that works well generally until you have a bunch
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  Speaker 2: of supply shocks. And we had a COVID supply shock,
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  Speaker 2: we had an energy supply shock. We had supply shoks
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  Speaker 2: with supply chains, geopolitics, all of which meant that there
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  Speaker 2: was more than transitory inflation, and it took a while
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  Speaker 2: for some of the central banks to fully recognize that
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  Speaker 2: and start to respond.
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  Speaker 1: Now that they have did recognize it, do you think
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  Speaker 1: they've done enough? And do you see any more rate
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  Speaker 1: increases likely to come about? There are many people in
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  Speaker 1: the market who think that maybe another rate increase in
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  Speaker 1: the United States is likely.
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  Speaker 3: What do you think about that?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, first first part of the question, and I
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  Speaker 2: think that once they started to move, and particularly when
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  Speaker 2: the FED started to move, it did respond in a
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  Speaker 2: very effective manner. It's consistently surprised people with it how
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  Speaker 2: resolute it was and what it was prepared to do.
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  Speaker 2: It recognized that the bigger risk was that inflation stayed
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  Speaker 2: high or worsened, and it has put us in a position,
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  Speaker 2: put the US in a position where inflation is increasingly
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  Speaker 2: under control, not totally under control. And that gets to
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  Speaker 2: the second part of your question, which is, I know,
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  Speaker 2: if I have to choose a camp, I be in
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  Speaker 2: the camp of I expect that there will be a
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  Speaker 2: bit more tightening by the Fed, so probably an additional
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  Speaker 2: rate increase this year, But.
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  Speaker 3: What's as important.
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  Speaker 2: In fact, what's more important is the path of policy
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  Speaker 2: over the course of the next twelve to eighteen months.
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  Speaker 2: And I think it's finally beginning to be recognized. It's
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  Speaker 2: been a painful few weeks for some of the market
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  Speaker 2: in getting recognition that it's not just about where the
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  Speaker 2: rate is today, it's not just about the peak, but
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  Speaker 2: it's the path, and the path of rates is very
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  Speaker 2: much and I've been in this view for a while,
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  Speaker 2: higher for longer, in order to ensure that policy is
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  Speaker 2: adequately tight to bring inflation fully back to that two percent.
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  Speaker 1: When I was in the White House as a young man,
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  Speaker 1: we were running for reelection under Jimmy Carter, and the
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  Speaker 1: head of the inflation Effort fighting inflation effort was a
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  Speaker 1: man named Fred Kahn, former Cornell professor, and he went
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  Speaker 1: out into the White House briefing room one day and said,
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  Speaker 1: I think we're going to have a recession. Well, Carter
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  Speaker 1: hauled him into the oval. Officer said Fred, I'm running
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  Speaker 1: for reelection. Do not use the R word. It scares people.
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  Speaker 1: And fred Kahn said, well, what am I supposed to do?
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  Speaker 1: I have to be honest, be honest, but don't use
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  Speaker 1: the R word. So the next time Fred Kahn went
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  Speaker 1: out and he said, I think we're heading into a banana.
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  Speaker 3: He used the word banana.
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  Speaker 1: As a substitute of recession for figuring reporters wouldn't put
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  Speaker 1: that in the headline. So are we heading into a banana?
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  Speaker 1: Do you think or you think we're not going into
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  Speaker 1: a banana?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I think the.
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  Speaker 2: Likelihood of banana has gone down. Actually, to be clear,
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  Speaker 2: the FED has done quite a masterful job. Other things
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  Speaker 2: have helped. But if you look at and you asked
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  Speaker 2: me a moment ago rightly about unemployment and getting back
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  Speaker 2: to the two percent, what's happened in the US, almost
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  Speaker 2: uniquely in the US is there hasn't been a sharp
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  Speaker 2: rise in unemployment. There's been a fall in vacancies, something
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  Speaker 2: that hasn't happened in the past. But of course this
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  Speaker 2: cycle is quite different than any previous cycles. So the
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  Speaker 2: Fed's been able to thus far ease some of the
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  Speaker 2: pressure in the labor market by reducing vacancies as opposed
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  Speaker 2: to increasing unemployment. That, plus the other aspects of the
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  Speaker 2: resilience that we've seen in the US economy makes recession
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  Speaker 2: less likely because the reality is, you know, if you
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  Speaker 2: get half a percent or certainly a full percent. Historically,
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  Speaker 2: anytime the unemployment rate in the US had risen by
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  Speaker 2: at least half of percent, there's been a recession. It's
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  Speaker 2: just you get the compounding effect that hasn't happened, So
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  Speaker 2: the probability's gone down, but there's still lots.
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  Speaker 1: When you're the head of the central back in Canada,
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  Speaker 1: do you kind of refer a lot to what the
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  Speaker 1: US was doing because your economy so tied to the US.
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  Speaker 1: Or do you say, look, we're we're going to do
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  Speaker 1: what we want to do. We don't care what the
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  Speaker 1: US is going to do. You consult a lot.
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  Speaker 2: We obsess about the US as the short answer, because
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  Speaker 2: it's the most impactful external factor for the Canadian economy.
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  Speaker 2: And there's also some you know, some of the things
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  Speaker 2: that drive growth in the United States, they're common factors
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  Speaker 2: that drive growth and or inflation in Canada. Let's talk
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  Speaker 2: about your background. So where did you grow up in Canada?
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  Speaker 3: Where were you born?
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  Speaker 2: I was born in Fort Smith in the Northwest Territories.
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  Speaker 1: And you're the Arctic and you're in the Northwest Territories. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that's very far up.
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  Speaker 2: It is very far up Yeah, So what we're your
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  Speaker 2: emphasis on the north and what were your parents doing there?
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  Speaker 3: My parents were teachers.
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  Speaker 1: And did you ever tay to them that's pretty far
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  Speaker 1: up north to be living. And did they ever move closer?
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  Speaker 1: They moved, we moved. Well, it's interesting.
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  Speaker 2: I mean it's whatever two hour flights south to Edmonton, which.
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  Speaker 3: Is probably then you grow up in Edmonton.
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  Speaker 2: I grew up in Edmonton. I went to Yes, And
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  Speaker 2: so you were a hockey player too. I was a
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  Speaker 2: hockey player.
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  Speaker 3: Yes. So you played Harvard hockey at Harvard's right, I did? Yes?
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  Speaker 2: Ish I opened the gate. I was a goalie, so
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  Speaker 2: I opened the gate for a lot of very good players.
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  Speaker 3: Really.
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  Speaker 2: So were you a star at Harvard in the hockey
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  Speaker 2: world or.
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  Speaker 3: I was very good at opening the gate? Yes? But
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  Speaker 3: you never consider going to the NHL?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah?
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  Speaker 3: I considered it. They didn't. The NHL did not consider it.
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  Speaker 3: Maybe in some sort of administrative role.
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  Speaker 1: But okay, So after you graduated, you went to do
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  Speaker 1: something like investment banking and you went to Goldman Sacks.
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  Speaker 3: I went to Golden Sacks in London, yes, nineteen eighty eight.
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  Speaker 3: And what did you do there?
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  Speaker 2: I worked, Actually I worked in the credit department. So yeah,
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  Speaker 2: credit analysis, which was probably the best thing I could
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  Speaker 2: have done, because you know, you build up a fundamental skill.
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  Speaker 1: How many people go to Goldman after college a young
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  Speaker 1: get an MBA and you decided not to get an
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  Speaker 1: MBA but to get a PhD in economics. Why did
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  Speaker 1: you want a PhD economics?
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  Speaker 2: I wanted to well, I thought that at some point
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  Speaker 2: i'd work in public policy, and I thought it would
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  Speaker 2: be more useful. And I toyed a bit with being
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  Speaker 2: an academic as well. My father was ended up being
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  Speaker 2: a professor ultimately.
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  Speaker 1: So you did this in Oxford. Why didn't you do
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  Speaker 1: a university in the United States or Canada?
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  Speaker 3: Why did you get the way to England? Yeah?
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  Speaker 2: It was To be honest, you could do a PhD
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  Speaker 2: in Oxford in three years, as opposed to if you're
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  Speaker 2: in the US system as a doctor student, you spend
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  Speaker 2: a huge amount of time teaching, which is great if
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  Speaker 2: you're going to be an academic. If you want the
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  Speaker 2: academic training, though, it means that the average time is most.
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  Speaker 3: So when you were in Oxford, did you also played hockey? Rint? Right?
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  Speaker 3: I did? And where you was a star or you're
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  Speaker 3: a star.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So you stayed at Goldman for how many years?
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  Speaker 3: I was back?
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  Speaker 2: In total, I was thirteen years at Goldman, but eight
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  Speaker 2: almost ten years, I guess.
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  Speaker 3: So what the highest level you reached.
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  Speaker 2: That Goldman was to be a managing director managing director,
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  Speaker 2: So managing director, a managing director?
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So why did you leave Goldman? Some people think
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  Speaker 1: it's the greatest thing in the world to be a
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  Speaker 1: Goldman managing director. Why did you decide to leave and
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  Speaker 1: go back to Canada?
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  Speaker 2: But I had an opportunity to become Deputy governor at
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  Speaker 2: the Bank of Canada. I've always had an interest in
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  Speaker 2: public policy. It was unique, unique opportunity and I fully
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  Speaker 2: huge respect for the guy who was governor at the time,
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  Speaker 2: David Dodge.
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  Speaker 3: And so how.
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  Speaker 1: Would they have heard of you? You're an investment banker
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  Speaker 1: in Goldman. People in Canada are They.
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  Speaker 3: Had an end. They put an ad in the paper
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  Speaker 3: and I applied.
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  Speaker 1: They put an ad in the paper and you responded, wow, okay,
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  Speaker 1: that's how.
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  Speaker 3: You got a job. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: Well now it's like, okay, so it's not how you
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  Speaker 1: got to be the governor as well? You responded to that.
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  Speaker 2: Well, they knew they knew okay, well no, but you
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  Speaker 2: know for the governor as well. I mean that's become
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  Speaker 2: the norm now central banks do put ads. I don't
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: think the face. So you're the deputy governor. You then
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  Speaker 2: went to the Finance. I went to the Finance Department
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  Speaker 2: and I worked with Yeah, I was one of the
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  Speaker 2: Then you become the governor and I became the governor
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  Speaker 2: Stephen Harper, and that was an easy time because there
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: was no recession, there was no problems, the economy was
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  Speaker 2: going well well. I yeah, basically I remember saying to Diana,
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  Speaker 2: my wife's that.
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  Speaker 3: Look.
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  Speaker 2: I mean we had young kids, like you know, this job,
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  Speaker 2: you know you make eight decisions a year. You know
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  Speaker 2: exactly when you make those decisions, you know, work life balance.
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  Speaker 3: It was going to work.
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  Speaker 2: Great and U and two weeks after I started, bear
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  Speaker 2: Stearn's failed. Ultimately you finished after about how many years
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: were you that?
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: Just under six six?
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  Speaker 1: All right, you step down and say now I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to go back and make money at Goldman Sachs.
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  Speaker 3: So what did you want to do? Didn't I didn't
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  Speaker 3: step down. I was asked to.
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  Speaker 2: I was approached by the UK government to become governor
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  Speaker 2: of the Bank of England.
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  Speaker 3: And is like an illegal poaching.
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  Speaker 1: I mean they're going to another country to take the
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  Speaker 1: central banker from another country.
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  Speaker 3: Did you think that was unusual?
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  Speaker 2: Well, it was, it was, It was unusual. It was
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  Speaker 2: I mean the unusual times. Technically the head of state,
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  Speaker 2: Queen Elizabeth is the same, so it's inter company transfer.
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  Speaker 3: Okay. So yeah, all right.
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  Speaker 1: So when you're the head of the Central Bank of Canada,
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  Speaker 1: by the way, you get your signature on the currency. Yes, wow,
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: so that it's pretty nice when your hand somebody a
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  Speaker 1: dollar bill, you say to people with my signature, you
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: ever tell them that, well, you don't break that rag?
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  Speaker 3: Okay? All right.
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  Speaker 1: So you get offered to go to be the head
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  Speaker 1: of the Central Bank of England and you said yes
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  Speaker 1: right away?
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  Speaker 3: And I didn't. Actually I.
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  Speaker 2: Turned it down a few times. It was a rolling
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: conversation over the course of twenty two eight.
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  Speaker 1: So you ultimately took the job. I then took the job. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I eventually took the job for about eight years.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, just under. And when you're the head of.
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  Speaker 1: The Central Bank of England, does the Queen call you
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: for advice or she ask you anything? To meet the
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: Queen very much.
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  Speaker 3: Or I did have a few audiences, right.
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  Speaker 1: And just and the prime minister, he doesn't appoint you
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  Speaker 1: the prime minister or he or she doesn't appoint you.
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  Speaker 3: Uh, you're appointed by the sovereign.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the sovereign report to the Board of Governors.
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  Speaker 2: I show, uh, well you I mean you report to
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  Speaker 2: the British people. Really through parliament is the way that's
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: really the accountability you're I mean, you can only be
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: removed for incapacity and that is a very Did you
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: enjoy that job, job, job security, the job?
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  Speaker 3: I enjoy that I it was, Yes, I did.
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  Speaker 2: I mean it was you know sometimes in the in
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: the thick of it, it's it doesn't feel enjoyable. But
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: it was incredibly challenged. He was you know, there was
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: a lot going on, which is the reason why an
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: outsider came in.
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  Speaker 3: So yes, I did enjoy it.
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  Speaker 1: Was it more fun to be the head of the
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: Central Bank of Canada or Central Bank of England?
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  Speaker 2: I would say was with The challenges were much greater
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: in the UK. You had an institution that had been
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: totally transformed. You had a financial system that I mean
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: was at the epicenter of the problems and had to
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: be fixed. You had the elements of Brexit what ultimately
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: was Brexit, the Scottish referendum. You had a big management challenge,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: you know, so it was you enjoyed it.
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  Speaker 3: I enjoyed it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you would recommend that job anybody that gets
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: offered it, right.
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  Speaker 3: I did recommend it too. I recommended it to a
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: number of people.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Yet, not too long from now, the next meeting of
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: a COP will occur. I guess it's in Abodhabir Dubai,
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  Speaker 1: and I assume you'll be there as a special envoy.
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  Speaker 1: So the last COP meeting didn't seem to make a
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: lot of progress. What kind of progress you think is
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: going to be made this time where we actually get
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: closer to getting to the target goals?
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  Speaker 3: And you have?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think the first thing. Let's just back
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: up for one second. So if we go to the
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Paris COP seven years ago, the world was headed towards
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: three and a half degrees warming by the end of
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: this century. IA came out last week says on current policies,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: what actually is happening, We're headed to two point four degrees.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: So there has been quite a bit of progress, it's
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: not enough. The goal is to be less than two.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: But just to be clear in terms of the scale
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: of investment in the policies that we're making progress this
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: COP and full credit to the Presidency of the COP
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: the United Emirates and Sultan al Jaber is very focused
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: on commercial solutions for climate change. And so first and
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: foremost and objective to get the major oil countries, producing
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: countries and companies to commit to zero methane near zero
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: methane by twenty thirty, doubling the efficiency of producing and
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: transporting oil and gas.
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  Speaker 1: So you step down for the Central Bank of England
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: and then you often become the special envoy off you
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: and now you're the chairman of Field Asset Management, and
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: now to be the chairman of Bloomberg. Right, what is
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Brookfield Asset Management?
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: So Brookfield Asset Management and Brookfield as a whole is
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: one of the world's largest alternative asset managers. The asset
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: management business is the capital light bit. So this is
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: where the twelve hundred plus investment professionals of Brookfield reside.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: We oversee the investments that have two hundred thousand operating
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: professionals and it's a business that invests effectively in the
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: backbone of the global economy.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: So that means renewable power.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: One of the largest owners operators at renewable power, over
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: one hundred and sixty gigawatts of renewable power owned, operate
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: and develop. One of the largest real estate investors in
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: the world. One of the pioneers, if not the pioneers,
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: of infrastructure is an asset class. So one hundred and
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: sixty billion under management in infrastructure, and that's everything from
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: energy infrastructure to data infrastructure, big private equity business and
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: a very large private credit business as well.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Now you have many jobs. Currently you're not the head
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: of the central bank in Inlet anymore or Canada, but
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: among other things, you're the special I guess advisor to
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: the UN Envoy Special Envoy UN on climate change.
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: So right, that's correct, on climate action and finance. Right,
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: So what does that really mean? What are you doing?
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: You're telling the people in each country they should go
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: more electric or don't burn as much oil, or what
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: it's really about.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: So a lot of if there's a common theme to
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: my career, it's working at the intersection of public policy
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: and private markets. So a lot of that in central banking,
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: that's what you're doing. And that's what I'm doing, is
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: this special envoy, And really it's to organize the private
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: financial system to be ready for climate change, not just
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: the physical impacts of climate change, but to be part
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: of the solution, to be able to provide capital, get
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: capital where it's needed to.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: Get a mission.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: So in this disposition, which I assume is probably an
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: unpaid position very much, so you know, people are looking
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: at you all the time, say you're the special envoy
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: for climate action.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: Can you can't fly in a private plane so easily?
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: I guess, right?
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Then do you take public transportation or you can you
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: drive your own carve it's an oil and gas car
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: or not?
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: Well I have I.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Might not surprise if we have an electric car, as
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: you would expect, and most of the time that is
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: charged in Quebec.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: I live just on the border with Quebec.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: And that's therefore, are you countable power?
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: Are you conscious?
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: People always looking at you as a special envoye saying
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: you know he's using too much, he's got too big
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: a carbon footprint, or you don't worry about that?
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Well no, people, look, people will make that, particularly if
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: they don't want to confront the tough issues around climate change,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: the big blocks of what's actually going to make a difference.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: They'll go to, you know, the anything you're wearing. You know,
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: there's plastic on my watch strap, and therefore there's an
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: element of high carbons in that.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: If you have an oil and gas investment that comes
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: to an investment committee and you're the special envoy, you
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: have to recuse yourself or how do you know.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Well, we have a very we have very clear approach
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: at Brookfield. As I say, we're one of the largest
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: renewable energy providers and we are systematically going through our
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: assets to ensure that as much as possible they have
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: business plans that are consistent with the transition towards net zero.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: And we do that first and foremost. From a fiduciary perspective,
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: we see being low carbon or lowering your carbon footprint
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: to put it that way, as one of the fundamental
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: drivers of value in the market. And I have to say,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: you know, we're being proven right. We know in real
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: time that the mapping of the temperature increase to the
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: extreme weather events is worse than we thought ten years ago.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: So actually the goal, even though the goal is getting
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: tougher to get it's becoming more.
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: To get there. And the third thing we know is
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: the mapping.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: You can map specific actions to specific emission reductions and
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: it can become very clear whether you're making a difference
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: on that and what we've seen. I'll make two points
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: if I may, on that. One is we go back
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: five years ago. Clean energy investment, so that's wind, solar,
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: battery storage, and let's say ev charging those types of things.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: About five hundred billion worldwide dollars spent this year last year,
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: one point two trillion this year one point eight trillion. Okay,
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: that is one and a half one point six times
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: what we're spending on conventional energy investment, and that's starting
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: to move, you know, so you can see in real
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: time what's happening in terms of emission reduction, solution emission reduction,
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: and as well, you know, from a financial we're at Bloomberg,
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: you know, and talking a bit about Brookfield as well.
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: From a financial perspective.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: First off, the numbers are huge in terms of the
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: you know, the action is in the clean not in
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: the conventional. Secondly, the information set around whether or not
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: a company doesn't matter what the industry is could be
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: tech could be motor, whatever services. The information about what
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: your carbon footprint is today and where it's going is exploding,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: so you can tell.
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: Who's part of the solution, who's part of the problem,
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: and that is driving value.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: Some of the emerging market countries say, well, wait a second,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: you guys in the United States and Western Europe, you
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: had a century or so to pollute as much as
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: you want it. Now you're asking us, as we're emerging,
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: to give away the right to use some of these
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: same kinds of fuels that you use as it's not fair,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: They would say, what do you respond to that.
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: Well, it's not fair.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, the disproportionate impacts of climate change will also fall
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: in those same countries and the people in those countries.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: You know, Africa, seventeen percent of the world's people three
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: percent of the world's emissions run right, but you know,
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: you know, hundreds of millions of people will be in
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: uninhabitable climate if we don't get.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: This on top.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: So we've got to all get together and deal with it.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: First point, and then the second is that now, given
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: the progress that has been made in the economics of
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: wind solar stores particularly, they are becoming the low cost
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: solutions for those countries as well.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: You have an electric car. You said you drive electric car, right,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: So some people say electric cars are not perfect in
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: the sense that they get the minerals you need for
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: some of their batteries. For example, you have to do
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of mining of things, and that is not
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: great for the environment either. But on the whole you
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: would say electric vehicles are infinitely better than carbon.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: Well, here we are in combustion.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: At Bloomberg and I can reference BNF research on this,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: which they actually show depending on where you are where
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: the crossover point is that your electric car net impact
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: on the environment is you know where it's better than
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: the internal combustion engine car.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: If you're in.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: Place like Canada, where you've got a lot of clean
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: power eighty five percent of our power zero mission in Canada,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: a little plug for Canadian manufacturing there by the way,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: and the crossovers about eighteen months. If you're even if
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: you're in China where you have instilled in the installed
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: based a lot of coal, it's well, I'll have to
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: check on I'll do BNF and check the number, but
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: it's around five years, okay, So and that includes the
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: embedded carbon from all those processes.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: For somebody whos watching it says, I'd like to be
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: like Mark Carney successful, but almost everything is touched to say,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: maybe not hockey perfectly, but pretty good.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: What was it your hard work?
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: It's just being good jeans, you know, just smarter than
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: everybody else. So what is it luck? What do you
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: think it is that enable you to do all these things?
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: And you're still a very young man by my standard,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: you're fifty eight years old. That's a teenager to me.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: How so what do you think made this possible?
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: Well, look, luck is a huge element of it, without question.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: You make your own luck to some extent if you're
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: doing things that you like and you care about, so
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: you're around opportunities. You know, I wouldn't have been Governor
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: of the Bank of England if I hadn't wanted to
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: be in public policy and was the governor of Bank
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: of Canada, for example.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: But I, at least in.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: My experience, maybe with my genes or whatever, I think
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: you can't get away.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: From hard work.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: wherever you listen.