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The Knife: Off Record – 124 · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. Hello,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: and welcome to the Knife Off Record. I'm Hannah Smith.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: I'm Patia Eaton. Today.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: We both have stories of disappearances, but you're going to
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: go first. And this is a story that I know
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: has become pretty personal to you over the years.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it has, and I will just get right into it. Okay, great.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: So the story that I'm going to be telling you
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: today started for me about two years ago when I
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: met a woman named Lisa Sayers, whose daughter Samantha has
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: been missing since August one, twenty eighteen. And I initially
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: had reached out to Lisa to ish years ago, now
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: a little over two years ago, down about working on
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: a series about Sam's disappearance, and for a lot of reasons,
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: that didn't happen the way we'd all hoped it would.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: But Lisa became my friend and we continued talking, we
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: stayed in touch, and we got pretty close. And at
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: this time I had recently had a baby girl, and
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: you know, call it like postpartum hormones or just plain
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: old human connection. Lisa's heartache and living in this world
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: that was still turning despite her daughter having just disappeared
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: was palpable and it's a pain I hope I never
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: fully understand, but her love for her daughter is something
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: that I do now understand, and it really like drew
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: me to Lisa and what she was going through and
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: connected me to her story in this new way that
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: I hadn't experienced before. And so when I met Lisa,
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: she had survived cancer, but she was living with active disease,
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: and unfortun her cancer returned and she did pass away
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: in June of twenty twenty five. It was really difficult,
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: you know. I spoke to Lisa maybe a day or
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: two before she passed. She was just an incredible person.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: And Lisa had told me that her greatest fear was
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: not dying, but it was leaving behind the people that
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: she loved and not being able to continue to push
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: for the search for Sam and for her to be found.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Because she was the one that was still pushing for that. Yeah,
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: and I imagine that she would always want that to
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: continue to be talked about and known about, and like
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: if anyone has any information about her daughter.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: For sure, And so I'm going to tell the story
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: of Sam's disappearance today, and I'm going to keep hoping
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: that she will be found. So I want to start
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: out with talking a little bit about Sam and who
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: she was. Sam is from Pennsylvania, That's where Lisa is from,
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: and she was living there with her two children, Sam
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: and Sam's brother, Ian, and their biological father was an
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: alcoholic and he was not really in the picture, and
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: soon after having children, Lisa left. So I think she
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: left when Sam was three and Ian was four. And
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: about a year after that, Lisa met a man named Ron,
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: and she and Ron were married. And I had so
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: many conversations with Lisa, and I can't tell you how
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: much we talked about Ron and just what a positive
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: force he is in her life and in her children's lives,
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: and he became their father. And so if I ever
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: refer to Sam's father later in the episode, I just
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: want to say, that's who I'm talking about. I'm talking
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: about Ron, got it. Yeah. Ron also had a child
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: when he came into the marriage, a son, Ryan, who's
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: ten years older than Sam. And so Sam was really
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: close with both of her brothers, Ryan and Ian. They
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: would go camping and fishing often, and this is where
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: Sam's love of the outdoors really started. To take hold.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Our childhood was great. They had a loving, close knit
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: family and Sam really thrived. But in high school, this
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: scary thing started happening and her hair started falling out.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Oh wow. Yeah, and she was a performer, she loved
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: musical theater, and you know, this is already a time
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: when most adolescent girls are grappling with some level of
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: physical insecurity. So it was really difficult. And it ended
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: up that Sam was diagnosed with alopecia, an autoimmune disorder
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: that results in hair loss. And this was at first,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: of course, really devastating for Sam. Her hair began falling
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: out so rapidly that she started wearing a wig. But
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: you know, I mentioned she was really involved in musical
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: theater and the wig was sort of getting in the way,
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: it was making it more difficult, and so eventually one
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: day Sam just took the wig off. And Lisa told
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: me that a teacher actually wrote her her letter and said,
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: you know, I've been living with alopecia and just feel
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: so empowered by this teenage girl's bravery. Wow. Yeah, that's
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: really inspiring, it is. And Lisa was really proud of
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: Sam for that. Yeah, And so that's kind of who
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: Sam was She was just a person going through the
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: stages of life that we all go through, but she
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: was really bold and brave and adventurous. And so after college,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: Sam and her boyfriend at the time really they had
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: a great relationship. They decided to visit Seattle, and Sam
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: really fell in love with it. You know, Seattle has
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: this close proximity to lots of beautiful state parks and hiking,
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: and it drew her in. And I'm actually from Seattle,
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: I can attest to that. It's like stunning, especially in
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: the summer. And so shortly after this move, she and
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: her boyfriend broke up, but it was peaceful. They remained
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: friends and Sam started dating someone new, a man named
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: Kevin Derrek. Kevin's from Louisiana, so there are both transplants
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: from somewhere else. They connected on that. They also really
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: connected on their love of the outdoors. Kevin also loved hiking,
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: and things moved pretty quickly and they moved in together,
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: and Kevin was actually managing an apartment building and so
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Sam moved in with him and she was cleaning apartments
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: on the side because he also had some sort of
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: short term rental situation and it was good. Sam seemed
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: to like really be into that relationship for a time,
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: but things, according to Lisa, just became a little more difficult.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Sam was really short on money. She wasn't making a
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: lot of money cleaning these apartments and was having trouble
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: finding a job. And you know that creates tension in
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: a lot of relationships, right, this like financial stress. And
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: so Lisa remembers early summer twenty eighteen hearing a lot
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: from Sam that things were just a little rockier. She
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: was a little more unhappy, felt a little bit lonely
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: and confused about her future. And she had been trying
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: to figure out a way to get back home to Pennsylvania,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: but she didn't have a lot of money for a
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: plane ticket. It's also breakups are just not that cut
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: and dry usually. So how long were they together? I
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: don't fully have an answer to that, because Lisa is
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: not sure that Sam told her when they first started dating.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: But you know, well over a year.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, and then they're living together. So the breakup is
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: I imagine then she's having to find somewhere to live or
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: they're still living together.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: Maybe right, There's so many logistics that go into breaking
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: up with someone once you move in together, or even
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: if you're both wanting to do that. Yeah. Yeah, And
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: so now it's a good time for me to tell
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: you that I have never spoken with Kevin. We emailed
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: briefly a couple of years ago, and he declined to
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: speak with me about Sam's disappearance, and you know what,
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: like that's totally fine. I'm sure that was a very
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: traumatic experience for him, but I just want to call
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: that out. So Sam disappears August first, twenty eighteen. So
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: I'm going to take you, actually right now back to
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: a couple of days before that, which is July twenty ninth.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: So as Lisa remembered it, on July twenty ninth, she
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: had a conversation with Sam where Sam told her that
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: she had had a big fight with Kevin about money.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: And Lisa, you know, was troubled by this, but sort
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: of not sure what she could do to help. She
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: didn't have a lot of extra money to you know, send.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: She was just kind of a listening ear and a
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: source of support for Sam. They were very close. They
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: had broken up at this point, but they hadn't She
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: had married, Yeah, so they hadn't broken up. Sam as
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: Lisa remembers it had just been sort of toying with
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: the idea. In conversations with Lisa.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: She was like, maybe we'll break up and I'll move
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: home kind of thing, right, I see, But they were
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: still together. They were still together, and you know, I
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: think it was one of those things where some days
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: were bad, some days were good.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: It sounds like it was a little bit tumultuous. So
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: on July twenty ninth, Lisa remembers this conversation with Sam
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: that Sam says, look, Kevin and I got into a
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: big fight about money. Lisa had mentioned to me at
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: one point an email that she got from a man
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: named Joe Corsy who had emailed her and told her
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: about this fight because it happened in public outside a bar,
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: and that he had witnessed it. But I've never seen
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: that email. I've never spoken to Joe. But Lisa was
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: very convinced that this fight happened not physical, just verbal.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: So on July thirtieth, twenty eighteen, Sam Sayers, who's twenty
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: seven at the time, posts a status on her Facebook
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  Speaker 2: page and she says, Seattle friends, I'm going hiking this
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  Speaker 2: Wednesday and tackling Vesper Peak eight miles round trip, forty
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: two hundred feet elevation gain. Spike's recommended but should not
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: be totally necessary. This is not a beginner's hike, but
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: anyone is welcome who feels up for it. Leaving early am,
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: potentially not back until six or seven, depending on speed
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: and how long you spend at the summit. Message me
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: if you want to tag along. I have three spaces
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: in my admittedly small car. So Sam doesn't end up
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: getting any bites on this invitation to join her on
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: her hike up Vesper Peak, but she's deterred. She's going
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: to go anyway. Kevin couldn't go, he had a work conflict,
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: but she was like, whatever, I have the day off,
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go do the hike. So the next
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: day on July thirty first, So facebook post is happening
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: July thirtieth. The next day is July thirty first, and
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: the hike happens August first, So we're in the day
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: before the hike right now. Okay. So Lisa and Sam
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: texted for what would be the last time on this day,
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: July thirty first, and Lisa tells Sam, I'm concerned about
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: you going hiking alone. Sam reassures Lisa, I'll be fine.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: I've done this hike before. And that's true. She had
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: done this hike before, and Sam, you know, told Lisa
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: she didn't think it would be that difficult. And this
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: doesn't fully quashed Lisa's worry. But you know, what could
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: she do. Sam is a grown woman, She's living across
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: the country. She can't just say no, don't go. She
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: knew there was no trying to stop her. And so
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: the next morning, August one, twenty eighteen, at around eight
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning, Sam says goodbye to Kevin, gets
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: in her car and drives approximately ninety minutes to two
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: hours to the Sunrise Mine trailhead to hike Vesper Peak.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: And we know that she gets there because she signs
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: in at the registry at the front of the hike
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: and she begins her assent. On her way there, Kevin
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: had texted her. He said, I know you don't need
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: me to tell you this, but the terrain can be dangerous,
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: and she replied with something like, I know, I love you.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Things were good, he said. He's quoted in another interview
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: he did saying that he was one hundred and ten
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: percent sure that he would see her later that night,
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: and Kevin was right. The terrain can be dangerous. Vesper
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: Peak is in the North Cascades and the North cast
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: Gates have a nickname the American Alps because it is
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: this vast and rugged country with thick timber, deep valleys,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: jagged peaks. This hike is not this like zig zaggy,
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: flat dirt trail or the kind of hike that I've
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: been ed out on. This is like, you know, she
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: brought walking sticks. This is like rocks and glaciers. She
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: had said in her post spikes recommended, which I think
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: means on your shoes. Yeah, for walking over like ice
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: or rocky terrain. Perhaps totally. Yeah, there's still snow on
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: the ground at that elevation. You know, there's glaciers, there's ice,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: there's snow, and so it was a moderately difficult hike
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: at least. So we know that sand park's at the trailhead.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Sometime around ten am, we know she signs this register
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: and she begins her ascent now before leaving on the hike.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Sam and Kevin, according to Kevin, who because this park
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: comes out later, because why would it have come out before?
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: They make an agreement that she'll call and check in
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: with him somehow at about six pm when she is
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: done with the hike. Okay, But this call never comes
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: and no one has seen or heard from Sam Sayers
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: since August first, twenty eighteen, which is now over seven
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: years ago. Yeah, and no trace of Sam Says has
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: ever been found, not an article of clothing, not a
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: cell phone, nothing.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, nothing. They found her car, I'm guessing, or
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: her car was still in the parking lot. Yeah, I'm
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: sure you'll get into that.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I will. I will get into that because it
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: is I think an interesting part of this.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Do we know if she went into the park alone?
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: Like is that something that's listed when you sign in
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: how many people are in your vehicle?
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: We don't know other than that she never told anyone
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: if she ended up going with someone else, And she
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: does end up being spotted on the hike and she
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: wasn't with anyone, so she signs in solo at the registram.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: I think the conclusion from the investigation that ends up
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: happening as she was alone. Yeah. Yeah.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: It has to be such a bad feeling to be
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: expecting that phone call and then just it never comes. Yeah,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: and then you I imagine wondering like, well, how worried
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: should I be? Was there just a delay? When do
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: you take action? Like when Kevin didn't get that phone call,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: what did he do next?
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: Kevin has given a couple of interviews where he runs
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: people through what he did when he doesn't get that call,
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: and some of his actions or choices that night never
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: really sat well with Lisa. But Kevin's never been a
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: suspect in the investigation at all. So Kevin, when Sam's
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: call doesn't come, his response is by seven fifteen, he's
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: on his way there himself to look for her. He
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: stops at a gas station, buys a flashlight. It gets
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: to the trailhead, where we can later confirm he's there
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: around ten PM at the trailhead because a witness later says, hey,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: I ran into Kevin at the trailhead at this time.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: But he finds Sam's car, a blue Ford Fiesta, sitting
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: at the trailhead, and he's like, okay, so I got
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: to go find her. She's injured somewhere, that's the sort
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: of assumption. So he heads up the trail with this flashlight.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: I mean this trail that's dangerous in the daylight. I
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: can only imagine climbing it or hiking it at night
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: would be really dangerous. Yeah, and you know, I'm from
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: Washington State and it does stay very light out very
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: late there. But at ten pm the sun is setting.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: So he goes up and he's searching for sam for
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: hours on his own, and then his flashlight breaks somehow
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: and he heads back down the mountain. So at one
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning, the night of August first, so
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: really one am, technically August second, Kevin calls nine one
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: one and I actually have the nine one one call. Oh, okay,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: nine on one.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: What's seaddress and the emergency.
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: It's out in the woods, one mount of vesper vesper Peak.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: Let's see and what's going on?
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: Had a hiker, Samantha Players, who left early this morning
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: for a day hike. Was supposed to be out by six.
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: Didn't hear from her. We drove up from stir I
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: drove up from Seattle, hit the trail at ten, flashlight
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: broke on the scramble, cannot find her car still out there?
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: And are you on the trail?
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: No? I had to drive a the way back. There's
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: no service. I'm at the pay phone by the service center.
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: My flashlight broke on the scramble. I gotta go try
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: and find some flashlights and batteries somewhere.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: All right, I'm gonna bring my supervisor on the line.
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: Stay with me, okay, huh.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting that he said we drove up,
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: and then he corrected himself to I drove up, Like,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: what do you think about that?
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't know that I would have thought
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: anything about it, But it was something that Lisa pointed
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: out to me, and that because her relationship with Kevin
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: ends up dissolving, she never really felt like she could
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: understand why he said we at first. But you know,
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: I know, and our editor knows, like I must speak
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: all the time. So could have just been could have
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: just been one of those things. But it was certainly
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: not like the most conventional reaction to not getting the
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: phone call you thought you would get when she got
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: off of the hike. Yeah.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, in all these scenarios, it's so tempting to
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: read into people's reactions or nine one one calls, But
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: really I always think, I don't know, like I don't
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: know how I would be also calling nine to one one.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: I always think I would want to just like clearly
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: give the information that seems needed, right, Yeah, And I
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: don't think we can read too much into how someone
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: sounds emotionally in those moments.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And we could get into the weeds on this,
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: but everyone has their own response to trauma. Yeah. So
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: after this nine one one call, police dispatch arrives, and
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: by the next morning, August second, in the morning, a
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: full search is underway for Sam. Yeah, it's unconventional that
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Kevin went and looked by himself with a flashlight, but
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: that's what he did. And I actually had this other
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: conversation with a good friend of Kevin's about this decision,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: which I pressed on that because it is weird, or
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: I should say, in my opinion, it's like, it's not
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: how I would have handled it. But he said, look,
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Kevin's my best friend, and he is from Louisiana and
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: an area where calling law enforcement to help if you
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: feel like someone's loss is not the first thing you do.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: You would just go out and look for them yourselves,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: because you know that countryside and Kevin knew this hike,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: they had done it before. Plus I think, and I'm
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: speculating because I haven't talked to Kevin, but some people
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: feel a little more hesitant to take the time of
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: law enforcement on others. And also like what if he
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: got there and Sam was at her car and had
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: run out of gas, Like you don't know. But before
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: moving on, I want to play a clip from a
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: new segment where Kevin gave a short interview.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: Kristin Wilson reports that things since August first, Kevin Dares
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: her fiance has turned his home into a command base
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: for volunteers who have stepped up to help find her.
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: He explains that moment when he realized something was seriously wrong.
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: I'll never forget that moment. Standing at the base had
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: least passed and it's about midnight, and you can't see anything,
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: and you have to step back, and you realize that
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: you can't do this yourself.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is what he says in the
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: nine to one one call, like he's realizing he needs help.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: That makes sense to me. Yeah, it makes sense that
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: he would think I'll just go find her and then
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: he has to realize, wait, that's not the situation.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm totally. And so the other thing, I do
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: want a flag that, like I know Lisa was thinking
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: about a lot, and I've thought about myself, is that
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: this drive from the Beltone apartment to the trailhead only
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: has you know, intermittent cell phone service at best. And
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: one of my sort of questions that I would ask
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: Kevin if he ever decided to speak with me, is like,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: were you concerned that on the drive you would miss
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: a call from Sam? Or she would call and you
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: wouldn't have service, and you guys would just drive right
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: past each other. But then I guess if you get
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: to the trailhead and her car isn't there, maybe you
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: assume she's gone home, and then you just turn around.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, those are the questions I have about his
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: decision more than I have about his intent. Yeah. Yeah,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: So Sam's disappearance is pretty quickly making local news, not
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: only in Seattle, but back in Pennsylvania and Gerard, Pennsylvania,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: where Lisa and her family are now living. And so
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: as her disappearance makes the news, hikers who were on
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Best per Peak on August first, or hiking that same
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: trail start calling in with their sidings of Sam. And
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: here is what they learn from these calls. So the
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: first sighting of Sam in the morning of her hike
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: is at around eleven thirty am. She passed by a
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: group of hikers from the YMCA while she was on
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: her way up to the summit. The next time Sam
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: has spotted is actually because someone happened to be taking
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: a video and she's spotted in the background. Wow. Yeah,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: and she has walking sticks. It's a very rocky I
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: think that's what Kevin was referring to as the Scramble.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: It's like a very rocky, very steep area with ice
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: and parts from glaciers, and so you can see her. Also,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: Sam was dressed pretty lightly, so that was noticeable for people.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: She often hiked in just a hoodie, in a sports spra,
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: sometimes a beanie.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Whereas other people were wearing like full arms length garb
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: because it's cold or just to hide from the sun.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Both yeah and just I think in the hiking world,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: which I'm not a part of, there's different levels of
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: preparedness that I think people find to be like the
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: safest way to go about it. So did she have
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: a pack a day? Yeah, she had a small pack
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: with her, which is where she kept the food that
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: she had packed for herself. That day. What time was
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: the video siding the video siding of Sam. The videos
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: taken maybe around lunchtime. So the final siding of Sam
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: that day comes from a witness who calls law enforcement
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: in Sanahomish County and says, I saw Sam. She was
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: sitting down eating lunch just below the summit. He says
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: she was eating a sean, which Kevin remembers that's what
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: she had packed that day, and he estimates that this
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: sighting was between two and three pm. He then watched
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: as Sam began her descent down a snow covered ridge
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: on the south side of the mountain that they're on. Hmm, yeah,
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: and so that's not the typical way back down. So
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: he was sort of confused by this and kind of
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: tried to wave to her. Maybe couldn't tell if she
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: fully waved back, and thought, you know, she's probably looking
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: for a private place to maybe use the restroom or
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: you know, we don't know.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Interesting, Yeah, So does that indicate that she had already
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: summitted and was on her way back down?
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's sort of the way the investigation
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: interprets this, is that she had summitted and now she's
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: you know, the second half of her hike, and the
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: south side of this mountain is not the way back
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: to her car. But you know, I think it's just
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: one of the moments where you could replay it a
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: million times, but I think we all sort of assume
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: people have a plan. And so he calls that in
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: and that's her last known sighting. So this is what
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: police are learning now. I want to go back to
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Pennsylvania in the moment that Lisa is finding out Sam
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: is missing. So on August second, So this is the
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: morning of August second, the search just beginning, the calls
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: are coming in. Lisa wakes up and immediately reaches for
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: her phone like so many of us do, and she
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: sees a Facebook post from Kevin and it says SOS
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: SOS missing hiker. And this is how Lisa learns of Sam.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: He didn't call her, so this is like, yeah, Kevin,
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: rough rough choice. Lisa is, of course now like jolted
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: awake by this, like the worst adrenaline rush you could
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: ever have as a person. And she calls Kevin and
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: said that he reassured her that he was confident they
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: would find Sam. You know, the way she remembers it,
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: he did not say you need to rush out here.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: We're gonna find her. She's probably just injured, and I
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: want to just spend one moment on this. Is that
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: in missing persons cases, which I've gone down a lot
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: of rabbit holes with missing person's cases, we've done a
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: lot of interviews, you really, when you speak to the
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: families recognized the logistical nightmare is when a loved one
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: goes missing miles from where you live. Because most of
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: us cannot just pick up and spend this indefinite amount
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: of time physically searching for someone, right, it takes a
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: lot of organizing and the means to do it financially.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: And this is true for Lisa and for Ron. So
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: they had two large dogs. Ron had a job that
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: he would have to get time off of, and his
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: work was really accommodating, and they ended up, you know,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: getting out there pretty quickly. But it's no small thing
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: to do that, and to buy these cross country tickets,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: and you don't know how long you're going to be there, right,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: there's so many unknowns and so on August third, Lisa
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: and Ron fly into Seattle and Kevin is driving them
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: around in Sam's car, which had never been impounded and
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: that always bothered Lisa about the investigation, is like, why
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: did you not impound her car? Lisa was really frustrated
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: by this. She was surprised because she said, she looked
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: down and I think it was in the cup holder.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: She finds this sort of bracelet that she had gotten
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: Sam that she thought Sam would have been wearing. There
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: was also a beanie in the car that she thought
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: Sam would have been wearing. You know, she wondered, did
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Sam make it back to her car and something happened
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: at the trailhead? Hmm? If so, though where were the
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: rest of her belonging? So why wouldn't they have found anything?
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like was there anything else in her car, like
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: her ID or anything else?
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: No, No, that's all that there was that Lisa recalls,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: But you know, the car was not looked at by
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: law enforcement. Yeah. So another day passes, there's no sign
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: of Sam. There are helicopters in the air, a search
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: and rescue team on the ground, detectives from Snowhomish County,
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: a massive search is happening. Lisa is barely sleeping. She
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: is sick with worry and just very confused about the
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: whole thing and something that started to bother Lisa she
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: spent more time in the Seattle area while the search
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: is happening. Is that Kevin and others were now referring
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: to Sam as his fiance. Yeah.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: I noticed that in the news clip and was going
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: to ask you about that.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, Lisa says that Sam never once mentioned an
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: engagement to Kevin or that he had proposed. That was
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: something that she felt was just odd. She thought that
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Sam and her were close enough that if that had happened,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: she would know about it.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Did Kevin say that they had gotten engaged?
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't know exactly what he said to
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: people or who even said that to people, but multiple people,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: she said, were referring to Sam as his fiance and
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: she was just very confused by that because in her memory,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Sam was like thinking about leaving the relationship. Yeah. So
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Lisa is not physically on the mountain looking for Sam.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: She's asked to not be there because it's a danger
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: and they don't want to spend time helping someone else
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: off the mountain. Doesn't mean she doesn't visit the area,
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: but she's not like physically turning over rocks like that's
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: not part of this for her and that was at
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: the request of the Search and rescue in the Sheriff's office.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: But things start getting a little sour between Lisa and
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Kevin's family, who has also flown in. Lisa said that
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: Kevin made comments about how she wasn't doing enough, and
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: she just felt like that was so unfair because what
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: she didn't feel that she was going to be a
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: help physically searching on the mountain.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't want to get into a situation where
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: someone else is hurt on the mountain, or even him
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: going out there at night, that could have happened to him,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: and then you would have two people that are potentially missing,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: you know. So as the search is happening and I
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: imagine the days are going by, what do we know
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: about what she had in her day pack? You said
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: that she packed light, How much food did she have?
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Were there water sources nearby? What was the timeline that
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: people guessed on how long she could survive out there?
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: So I never got an answer on how long she
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: might have survived based on what she had. But I
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: think it was Kevin who estimated she had packed four
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: sandwiches because he had been with her that morning. And
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Lisa also said that she felt like Sam was strong
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: and resilient and could have stayed alive even in a
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: very difficult or painful situation until she was found. She
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: really felt this because of how much time that Sam
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: had spent outdoors as a child and all the hikings
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: she'd done previously. But you know, Sam was dressed light,
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: and it does get cold up there at nighttime, even
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: in the summer. Obviously, the terrain leaves a lot of
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: risk of injury. So this was a concern. And by
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: August fifth, so she's been missing now less than a week.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: Lisa said that there was already a different energy with
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: law enforcement and search and rescue, and she recalled a
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: moment where a police sergeant told her that Sam was
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: likely dead and she should go home.
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Wow, And Lisa was angered by this and obviously sad,
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: but at the time, you know, she's fighting to keep
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: the search going for Sam. You know, you don't have
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: time to sit around and just like be sad. So
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Lisa's angered by this and tells this police sergeant, no,
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: like Sam is young and healthy, and if she's lost
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: on the mountain, she could still be alive. She could
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: just be injured. And while all of this is happening,
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: someone had set up a gofund me to help with
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: this search for Sam. This was not at Lisa's request,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: but she is then glad to have funds to continue
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: to stay there in Seattle and to make later additional trips.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: And Kevin, while the search is happening, is putting together
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: these zip block bags of food with notes to Sam
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: and sort of him and others are scattering them about
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: the mountain, and you know, there's a lot of wildlife.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: There's also just the thought of, like, if Sam is
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: moving around and finding these packs of food to stay alive,
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: that seems pretty unlikely because if we haven't found her,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: she could probably be injured and stationary. Is this a
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: good use of time and resources? Is this even safe
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: to have these civilian people out on this dangerous train
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: dropping off zip blocks in case she comes upon one
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: of them. This was sort of like I think Lisa
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: saw it as performative, but I think that going back
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: to what we were talking about earlier, it's like, you
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: really don't know what you do in that situation, and
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: everyone responds to these things differently, and the reality is
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: is that none of them could do anything search and
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: rescue teams were looking and what they could actually do
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: was so limited, and I feel like for some people
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: it's so hard to be in that position where you
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: can't do anything. So it sounds to me like one
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: of those things where they just created something that they
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: could do so they could feel like they were doing something. Yeah,
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: and Lisa, in the same vein made pancakes for search
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: and rescue workers because she's like, well, what can I
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: do to keep people motivated, to keep people feeling like
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: a part of this team with this mission to bring
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: home Sam. And I remember her just like this was
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: a moment in one of our conversations where she really
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: became very emotional. It's like she could sort of feel
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: going back in time, and at this a week missing,
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: the hope starting to dwindle, and as you know, Sam's
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: mother just wanting to sort of pull that back up
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: and bring back that hopeful energy because all you want
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: is people so determined to find her and to not
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: give up. And so at a week in that's when
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: sort of the demeanor starts to shift around her disappearance.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: And even though Lisa and I were talking about this
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: many years after Sam's disappearance, she still would note a
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: lot how surreal it felt to talk about Sam and
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: know that she was still missing after all of these years.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Like Lisa really had this hope that Sam would be found.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: And I'll get into why that is. So all of
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: this tension is brewing with Kevin's family, particularly now about
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: the money that's been raised in the gofund me to
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: help with expenses. You know, Ron is unable to work
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: while he's traveling to Washington State. They have two large
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: dogs at home that need to be cared for. Lisa
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: just felt really uncomfortable with the gofundmes and maybe a
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: lack of transparency or a perceived lack of transparency about
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: how that money was spent. She did get some of
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: that money for their expenses, but things got really muddy
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: between her and Kevin's family, including Kevin. But she was
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: just her utmost concern was finding Sam. Yeah, and I
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: imagine that they searched the South Pass or the south
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: slope where someone had seen her going down, you know,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: but there's so much to search, There's so much to search. Yeah,
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: and you know, this search becomes the biggest and most
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: extensive search in Stahomish County history. It included fourteen dog teams, helicopters,
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: drone operators, Sheriff's marine unit searched spot of lake which
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: is on that hike. There were seventy searchers on foot.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: It was massive and so the search formally ends on
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: August twenty third, twenty eighteen. Sam is now twenty two
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: days missing. Yeah, a little over three weeks and the
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: search turned up no sign of her. So Lisa started
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: to wonder if Sam had been kidnapped, and in fact,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: in that moment when she rolled over and read the
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Facebook post from Kevin, the first time she realizes that
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: anything has happened. She said, she had this intuition that
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Sam had been taken in that moment, and that little
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: voice that Lisa heard, you know, maybe her intuition or
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: whatever telling her that is something that she really held
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: on to and that she really kind of molled over
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: more as the search didn't turn up any sign of Sam,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: that she.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Could have been kidnapped on her way down the trail.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: Perhaps, Yeah, I don't think she really knew, but she
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: just questioned why the bracelet was in the car, why
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: the beanie was in the car, and it just gave
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: her a lot of pause, but law enforcement was not
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: looking in the direction of a kidnapping. And I haven't
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: spoken with a detective on the case, but I can
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: understand that you have a missing hiker. She's seen on
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: the hike, and there are a lot of people calling
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: in that say that they saw her on the way up.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: There's no one calling in saying they saw her on
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: the way down. Yeah, except for this person who says
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: that they saw her going down the south side of
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: the ridge, which he didn't understand why she would go
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: that direction. So I had a brief conversation with a
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: representative from Snohomish County and she did tell me, and
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: this I think is very strange that I think as
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: far as today, but definitely when we spoke, that Sam
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: is the only missing high ground vesper Peak who has
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: never been found. And I want to say, I don't
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: know what happened to Sam, but I hope that the
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: search for her continues. And you know, personally, I don't
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: think it particularly matters what I think, But what has
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: always stuck with me is all the people that jumped
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: in to say where they had seen her, and that
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: none of those people saw her coming back. And you know,
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: I think that it's easy to underestimate mother nature and
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: the wilderness wildlife up there. I don't know, we've all
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: done things that maybe we shouldn't have or put ourselves
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: in more dangerous situations. So Kevin has also continued searching,
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: So Lisa has continued sort of virtually at this point.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: Before she passed posting a lot about Sam on her
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: Facebook page. She hired her own drone operators to run
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: more image searches that didn't turn up anything, but she
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: never stopped looking. When the search ended, it didn't end
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: anything for Lisa and Kevin also continued searching, and he
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: searched physically, and he actually got involved with a private
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: search and rescue group. I guess you could call them,
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: a guy by the name of Bud Carr, who I
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: did speak with at one point, and together they actually
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: went out searching for another missing hiker whose name is
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Rachel Lacaduke, and they ended up finding her remains. Wow. Yeah,
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: so it's a crazy story. Rachel was also hiking in
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: this area, different trail than Sam was on, and in
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: October of twenty nineteen, she's heading up this trail. She
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: has the intention of spending one night by herself up there,
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: and a storm is coming in and she runs into
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: these hikers on her way up who are heading back down,
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: and they're like, the weather's really turning, you should head back,
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: and she doesn't, and she vanishes. And so in August
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: of twenty twenty one, Kevin Dar's and Bud Carr actually
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: find her remains.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: You know, the fact that Kevin has gone on to
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: look for Sam around Mount Vesper and also joined teams
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: to look for missing hikers, it kind of is one
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: small thing that shows you how much this clearly impacted
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: him in his life and obviously impacted Lisa's life, and
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: I'm sure also Ron and Sam's brothers as well. I mean,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: there's no right way to grieve someone, right And obviously,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: as you talked about, sounds like Kevin and Lisa didn't
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: have the best relationship after this happened. You know that
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: that makes sense to me. But yeah, I think it's
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: cool that Kevin has spent his time helping find other hikers.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this person, Rachel, who remains he and Bud
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: actually ended up finding. You know, she wasn't far off
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: of the trail, but it just didn't take her being
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: that far off of the trail for her to go
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: completely unseen, her remains to go completely unseen for years. Yeah,
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: because it is very densely forested area boulders. I don't
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: know what elevation she was at, but at the lower
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: elevations in these mountain ranges in Washington, it's almost like
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: a rainforest environment. So that's sort of a crazy part
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: of the story. But I want to talk about just
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: a couple of the theories before I wrap this up,
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: which is that Sam on her Instagram posted a lot
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: of pictures taking sort of cliff side selfies, very dangerous
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: looking selfies, and this is a theory that perhaps she
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: got too close to the edge and fell into places
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: that would be extremely difficult to search. And I had
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: an off the record conversation with a member of the
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: search and rescue team who told me that at the
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: base of a lot of these peaks or cliff edges
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: is still snow and huge rocks, and you could fall
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: in a very small area and be impossible to find,
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: and it wouldn't be safe to send someone in to
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: look for you, and even if it was, it would
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: be incredibly difficult to search all of those possible areas
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: you could maybe search some of them, but could you
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: search all of them? Maybe not? And so Lisa never
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: felt Exam would have done that. She felt Exam's judgment
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: was much better than maybe an accidental fall because of
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: taking a cliff side selfie. But it is one theory
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: that's sort of out there. And then of course there's well,
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: why haven't we found any trace of her? You know,
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: because if she has these walking sticks, I'm sure she
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: put them down before she took a picture, you know, right,
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: where are the walking sticks? Strange? Yeah, that doesn't add up?
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: Does not up? Why is the beanie in her car?
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: Why is this bracelet in her car that she would
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: have been wearing?
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: Do they know in the video was she wearing a beanie?
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: So it's hard to tell, but yes, it could have
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: been a hood could have been a beanie, okay, Yeah,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: and then the issue of like why nothing, you know,
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: why nothing? And the wildlife in this area now, going
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: back to those go bags Kevin was spreading around the
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: mountain for her in case she found them, those were
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: what do you call it, like wildlife got.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: To those ripped open, eaten, ripped open and gone. Yeah,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: and that's why you have bear boxes like when you're backpacking, right,
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: that bears can't get into.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, another reason I don't hike. So so the issue
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: of wildlife. If someone goes missing, and someone is injured,
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: or they pass away and their remains and their belongings
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: are out there, wildlife could really spread those things out
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: and make it even harder to find. Yeah, that's one
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: possible reason she hasn't been found. So you know, this
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: doesn't have a happy ending, this doesn't have resolution. My
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: hope in telling this story is not that I'm going
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: to break the case wide open, but to just keep
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Sam's story in people's minds, because she does deserve to
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: be found. And you know, there's a lot of sort
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: of Reddit warriors saying she was over confident, she shouldn't
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: have been hiking alone, she was underprepared, she was underdressed.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: But like we've all done things we shouldn't have done.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: So even if you believe that, just it means nothing
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: to me, like, let's find her.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so glad that you told this story today.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: There was a lot that I didn't know about it.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: You have sort of mentioned speaking with Lisa over the years,
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: and I knew that you were working at one point
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: and turning this into like a multi part series that
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: didn't end up happening. And I just want to point
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: out again, there's so many stories like this, but you're
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: telling this story, and you talked with Lisa for hours
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: upon hours upon hours over years about her missing daughter,
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: and this was such an important story for her to
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: get out to the world because we, as we've talked
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: about before, when time passes and people pass away, like
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: the memories of people can get lost, and she doesn't
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: want that to happen with Sam. Obviously, there's people still
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: alive who love Sam very much, but it's important that
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: we keep talking about these things because you never know
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: what might spark and someone who might hear it could
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: lead to discovery of her.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, and Lisa still had hope. She never lost
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: that hope. And cancer is brutal and she may have
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: lost energy and the ability to continue searching, but like,
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: she never lost hope. Yeah. As time went on and
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: Lisa didn't get answers, she would meet with psychics and
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: she would take emails from people who said that they
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: had sightings at the Trailhead possibly being abducted. And I
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: looked into those and wasn't able to find anything that
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: I felt like was compelling enough to really dig into.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: But you know, Lisa is not the only person who
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: doesn't think Sam's on the mountain.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, well thanks for telling that story.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad that I finally had a chance to
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: tell it.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, So when I knew you were going to be
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: telling this story, I wanted to also tell a story
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: of someone going missing out of nature in a national park.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: And this also takes place in the North Cascades. It's
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: just outside of North Kestcage National Park in Washington actually,
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: and it happened in July of twenty twenty four last year.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, so recent.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a man named Robert Shock set off on the
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: Hannigan trailhead on July thirty.
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: First.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: It's interesting the timing also in July, Yeah, which makes
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: sense because when I was looking up that National park,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: there's a range they tell people to visit. It's like
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: between late June and early September.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: And let me just everyone who visits Seattle in the
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: summer is like, most beautiful place I've ever seen. Yeah,
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: that's the moment. Yeah, it's gorgeous. Yees, I was looking
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: at pictures. I've never been to the Cascades National Park.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: I don't think I've been up to Washington, and it's
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: just stunning. And the pictures of this area where Robert
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: Shack was, I was like blown away. Yeah.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: So he was thirty nine years old at the time,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: and he was an ultra marathon runner, which you know,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: a marathon is twenty six point two miles, and an
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: ultra marathon runner runs the races are like anywhere from
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: fifty miles to one hundred miles. Good for them, just
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: not the same kind of person. I am, no, you know, no, no,
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: but yeah, I mentioned that because he was going on
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: a twenty mile trail run. But in context, he's used
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: to running like way longer than that. Okay, but it's
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: a trail run, you know, there's elevation. So he similarly
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: to the story you told Sam brought like a day pack.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: Robert packed light. He was wearing a day pack with
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: he had a map. He was wearing shorts and running
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: no shirt because I think he just wanted to keep
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: things as light as possible for the long run. But
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: he also brought with him his dog, a chocolate lab
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: named Freddie.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: Cute.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and Robert was really familiar with the North Cascades region.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: He was kind of an outdoorsman. He hiked and camped
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: regularly in the area, so it was like he was
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: some newbie who had never been out on a trail before.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: He was described as a wanderer and a musician, originally
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: from Blaine, Washington, but he actually didn't have a permanent
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: address at the time. He lived in his van with Freddie.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: He was kind of a wanderer and it seemed like
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: he just lived that sort of alternative lifestyle. He wasn't
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: that interested in the classic American dream. He didn't want
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: the nine to five. He liked to sort of roam
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: around and do his thing.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't like the nine to five e there,
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: but I don't like to roam. Yeah, I just want
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: to be in my house. Van life is a certain
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: kind of life. Oh yeah.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: And I looked at pictures of him. He's got, you know,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: long beard, long hair, and Freddy the chocolate lab is
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: really cute. So he had been to this area many times,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: but it had been a couple of years. And the
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: North Cascades National Park is huge. There's about five hundred
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: thousand acres of land, and this part where he was
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: was very north, almost to Canada. He was close to
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: Copper Mountain and the Chilliwack River which runs through there,
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: so it's super far north, and you know, he was
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: feeling kind of adventurous that day, and so he planned
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: a route that would combine a couple of trails and
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: would be a twenty mile sort of makeshift loop, which
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: really isn't that uncommon. If you're used to hiking, you
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: might not want to just do one trail, but if
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: you're familiar with trailheads and trail signs, it's not that
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: hard to say, well, they'll just turn left here and
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: then I'll connect to this trail. So that was his plan.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: But what he didn't realize or had forgot and I
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: don't know, is that there had been fires in the
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: area a couple of years before, and so some of
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: the land where he was going, like in this route,
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: was technically closed off and the trails had been destroyed
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: by fire, and there had been some regrowth that had
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: been a couple of years. But when that happens, the
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: trail is not the same. There's not even really a trail.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: It has to be restored. So you know, we set
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: off on the path and he never returned to the trailhead.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: His mom, Jan Thompson, lived in North Carolina at the time,
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: and she obviously knew her son, knew he was an
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: adventurous guy and would go out on these long trail runs.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: And she reportedly spoke with him on the phone the
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: night before and asked him to call her when he
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: got done with his run, and he never called.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: She didn't worry too much.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Because she just thought, well, he's really self reliant, he'll
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: call me soon. But then on August third, Freddy the
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: dog was found on the east side of the Chilliwack
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: River alone. So his dog was found first. And the
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Chilliwac River is this big, rushing, cold river, not something
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: you can just easily cross. So the Watcom County Humane
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: Society called Jan and told her that they had found Freddie.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: So then Jan reported Robert missing. Okay, and you know,
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: Freddie was fine. He had one sore paw, but he
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: was doing just fine and he fully recovered, thank goodness,
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: Thank goodness. So then Jan said that when she reported
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: him missing, a deputy called her back within minutes and
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: let her know they had located Robert's car at the trailhead.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: It makes me wonder if they had already sort of
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: been looking after finding the dog. They found his car
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: with the window halfway down on the passenger's side, and
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: his wallet was also in his car. His mother would
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: later say that the deputy who called her a thought
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: that that was a sign that Robert left and didn't
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: plan to come back. That was how he interpreted it.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: Then he left his wallet in the car. Yeah, it's
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: so strange to me, because like, what's he going to
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: spend his money on a trail, Like, you don't need
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: your wallet. I don't know if he thought it was
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: like I'm going into the woods and never returning kind
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: of thing.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know. I'm a dog person, don't
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: have one right now, But you wouldn't bring your dog
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: with you on sort of a final journey, no, especially
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: if you're a dog lover, if you don't want Yeah,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: I would never do that to Freddy No, not to
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: chocolate lab Freddy No. So Jan did not buy that,
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: She said, this is not unusual behavior for my son.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: He probably just didn't want to bring his wallet on
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: the run, left it in the car, left the window down,
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: like that's just sort of normal, and she always believed, no,
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: we'll find time, he'll come back. So the Wockcom County
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: Sheriff's Office, deputies, and National Park rangers performed detailed ground
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: searches over three days in August. On August sixteenth, the
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: US Border Patrol flew over the Chiliwak Basin looking for
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: him helicopter, but he wasn't found and so the search
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: was called off. You know, this story does have a
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: happy ending, I'll just tell you right now. But the
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: fact that the search was called off and I'll get
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: into that later, but like they did a thorough search
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: and then the search was called off, that's got to
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: feel so terrible just having the search called off like
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: that decision would feel horrible. Yeah, But Robert was found
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: in like a wild turn of events, and he was
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: found after being out in the wilderness for thirty days,
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: and the way he was found was sort of random happenstance.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: And I'm going to get into it, but I'm going
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: to just run you through Robert's account of what happened
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: after he was found. So he said he started off
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: on the trail that day July thirty first, and all
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: was well, he ran seven miles on the trail at
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: which point it intersects with the Chiliwac River, And I
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: think this was kind of interesting. I had never heard
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: of this, but I guess there are these cable cars
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: that are suspended over the river that you can use
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: to cross it. Did you know this? No, I don't
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: go I don't go up there.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: I have been backpacking in hiking, but I've never been
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: in a place where they have this.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: Where you just self operated. Yeah, go above the I
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: looked up.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: I actually found a video on YouTube of someone crossing
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: in the cable car crossing the Chilliwack River. I don't
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: know if it was the same crossing point.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: No, I don't know that a cable car that I'm
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: operating myself is all that reassuring to me. Like I'd
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: probably just be like, oh, I can turn around now. Yeah.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'll show you the video. It's like a
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: metal sort of box without a lid, like a metal
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: basket that you would get in. It looks like it
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: fit maybe one or two people. That's connected to a
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: cable that runs across the river. And then you have
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: a little pulley and you're pulling yourself across this rushing
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: river below. No, and it's just like it's not like
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: there's someone there operating it. You just hike up there
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: and then you're like, here we go.
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: That's so much worse than I thought I was picturing
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: that like tram and palm springs. Oh no, it's not
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: even that fancy. And I don't even like that.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's like for hikers because you can't cross
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: the river, so you just like climb these stairs, get
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: into this basket, go across.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: Okay, everyone, let this be a sign you cannot cross
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: the river.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: So Robert and Freddie get into the cable car and
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: he pulls them across the river. So it's after they
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: cross the river that things sort of start to go wrong,
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: and Robert starts to get disoriented. He's starting to get
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: into some of that area that had been burned and
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: then regrew, so I don't know if he knows that
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: it had been burned, but he's sort of like things
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: don't quite look like they should. He sees a sign,
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: a trail sign that is pointing north, indicating that the
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: Canadian border is twenty miles away, but for some reason,
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: he feels like the sign has been tampered with or
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: changed because he needs to go south, but for whatever reason,
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: he thinks this sign has been like switched backwards. So
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: he goes in the direction of the sign, which he
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: thinks is south but is actually north. And this is
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: not going on any path now, it's just sort of
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: wandering out into the wilderness.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: A backward sign like in a cartoon where it like
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: swaps and you're like, oh, no, totally, what a nightmare.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: And so he just wandered. He starts wandering north into
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: the wilderness, which is yeah, like heavily forested. And is
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: this where Freddie turns back? He's like, no, well he
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: actually sends his dog back. Yeah. I mean it gets confusing.
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: And he gave like a couple of interviews when he
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: first got back, but then hasn't really spoken about it.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: I think he said he was going to like write
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: a book or something, but it's unclear exactly what was
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: going through his mind. But he does, I think within
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: the first day send Freddie home. He's like, Freddy, go home.
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: So Freddie obeys, and Freddy trots back, but can't cross
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: back for the river right because he can't get into
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: the pulley. He can't pully himself across the river. Oh
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: my gosh, so freddie Head's back and then that's where
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: he's found later by the river and Robert I think
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: knew like he could have turned around, he had enough energy,
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: he could have turned around, but he thought again that
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: he was going the right way and that he just
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: needed to find the path and that he could do it.
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: This feels kind of familiar to me. I mean, I
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: think that if you were a hiker and you're on
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: a path, like it doesn't feel good to have to
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: turn around, Like you wouldn't turn around unless you really
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: felt like you needed to. I went on a backpacking
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: trip with a couple of friends a few years ago,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: and at one point we lost the path, but like
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: we knew the direction we were going, and we also
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: had like all trails app on our phones. But you know,
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: there was like an hour where we were kind of
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: like wandering, and the idea of turning back after you
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: have this heavy pack and you've been hiking all day,
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: it just feels like defeat that you're like, no, we
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: can just find I'm sure we'll just find it here
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: in a second. And then we did, right, So I
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: think a lot of people have that mindset when they're
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: out hiking. But he was never going to find the
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: path because he had turned the wrong way.
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: So and the wildfires. Yeah, there was no trail. Really,
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: he's just wandering north.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: Nightmare.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: So then at some point he takes off his shoes
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: to wash them in a river he finds and they
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: wash away, so he's barefoot. Now it's hard to sort
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: of comprehend. So he's barefooting, doesn't have a shirt, He's
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: just wearing shorts. Oh right, he has no shirt. He
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: has no short time days, no shirt, Yeah, just shorts.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: And he has a little tiny like backpack, like day pack.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: But the details on what happens next are sort of blurry.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: He does have a phone but doesn't have service, and
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: then like day two, the phone dies. He says, by
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: day three he's starting to worry.
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is one difference between me and Robert. I'm
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: starting to worry hour one hour one hour, one hour.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: One that I'm not on a trail, and I'm like,
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: there doesn't even seem to be a trail. I'm like,
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: maybe I need to worry here. Yeah, I think that
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: points to how much of an outdoors man he was.
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: He's like, I'll figure it out. I'm barefoot. It's fine.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: But he's growing more and more disoriented and hungry on
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: day three, so now he's like off the path and
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: starting to feel disoriented, so like, how can he even
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: make his way back? He said, he ate some berries
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: off of some bushes and then found a large mushroom
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: and knew that it was a risk to eat it
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: because it could be poisonous, but he was like, I
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: have to do this because I have no food and
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna die. So he ate it and it was fine.
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: It wasn't poisonous and probably ended up saving his life
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: because it gave him like more sustenance.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: Oh my god.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: So he starts heading back, trying to retrace his steps
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: because he realizes now that he's in like a really
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: bad situation, and he like hurts his toe or hurts
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: his foot because he's just like barefoot, but he's super disoriented.
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: At one point, he remembers helicopters circling and he's yelling
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: and waving his hands, but you know, they didn't see him.
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: It's like, you're so tiny and there's trees everywhere. It's
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: interesting thinking about that because the US Border Patrol was
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: looking for him by helicopter on August sixteenth, So that
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: means he would have been out there sixteen days at
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: that point, right, which indicates that he was still walking
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: around and like coherent.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: Wow, it's like, if you're not in a clearing, how
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: can they see you?
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: You'd have to be in a clearing. Yeah, that's what's
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: so different about that versus like hiking in California. There's
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: a lot of just sort of open space desert type
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: of hiking where someone could potentially see you easier.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and even those like heat detector cameras. I wonder
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: if they had those. I've heard about those. But wow,
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: that's sixteen days is so long. Yeah.
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: So he finally is making his way back, he's able
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: to retrace his steps, and then at some point he
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: just collapses on a river bank and he can't get
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: up because he's so tired and he's so malnourished. He
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: turns out that he was eleven miles from the trailhead
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: at that point, and only half a mile from something
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: called a horse Ford.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: What is that? I thought you might know that. I mean,
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: it sounds like the way I hear the word or
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: dirve in my head.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: Oh well, I thought as a horse girl growing up,
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: you might know. But I looked up. It's just like
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: a place where horses can cross a river, because I
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: went in pretty little circles. Okay, Yeah, so I guess
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: there was a crossing point okay, where horses and maybe
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: other people could cross about half a mile because remember
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: the river is like not really crossable, right, So he
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: lays there for days and yells for help and no
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: one comes, and he said he slept during the day
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: with the warmth of the sun, but it was too
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: cold at night, like it had a risk of getting
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: hypothermia because it would get down into the forties and
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: there were rainstorms that were cold. He says he was
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: awake for the entire endeavor, and that he was probably
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: laying on the river bank for more than a week.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: What he thinks he was awake for a week. He
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: claims he was cognizant for all of it, and that
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: he just laid there for over a week. And then
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: he remembers laying on the river bank one day and
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: thinking that it was going to be his last day alive,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: and so he thought, I'm going to try one more
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: time and yell for help, and so he just starts
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: yelling as much as he can. He's so weak and
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: lo and beholds someone hears him. It's like finding the
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: needle in the haystack. There is this nonprofit organization called
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest Trail Association, and they helped maintain and repair
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: the trails. And there was a group of volunteers who
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: were returning to camp after working out on the trails
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: after a ten hour day. They had been like hauling
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: boulders and doing other like difficult manual labor, and they
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: were headed back and this guy named Miles Cottingham, one
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: of the trail workers, was sort of walking a little
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: bit of ways from the rest of the people for
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: some reason, and that's probably how he heard Robert Schock's calls,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: because you think about the noise of the river, you
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: think about if you're talking with people.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: So he's like, I thought I heard something, and got
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: the attention of his crewmates and we're like, we should
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: go check this out. I guess he must have thought
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: like that sounds like a human But you think you're
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: working a ten hour day and then you're like, well,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: let's go investigate this thing over here.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: Now there's one person with him, like, I really want
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: to be done, I'm ready.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: For dinner, and we just it's probably like a deer,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: you know. Robert said he thought it was a pack
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: of wolves coming at him because he was so disoriented,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: and then he realized it was people and they found him.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: They called for help. They covered him with their jackets
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: because he was so cold. They gave him little bits
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: of food, but he was not in good condition. He
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: was fifty pounds underweight and in shock and very close
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: to death. But he was helicoptered out of there and
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: he ended up recovering.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: Oh my god.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's the story.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: Really. So he was out there thirty days, most of
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: which he had no shoes, and he also had only
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: a little backpack, so he ran out of food very quickly.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that is so scary. That is like
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: a nightmare. Nightmare.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: He was able to drink water from the river. I
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: guess he found water. But yeah, and then he ate
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: that mushroom.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: I hate mushrooms really, yeah.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: I love them, but like the idea of eating a
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: mushroom in the wild is so scary because you have
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: no idea, right, I could send you on a real ride. Yeah. Wow,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: So he's alive and well he's alive, and well that's great.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: Another thing I wanted to mention there was a Facebook
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: post from the Pacific North Trail Association PNTA director. He
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: made a post after all this happened, I think, in
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: response to some people were giving them a hard time
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: forever calling the search off because they ended up finding him,
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: and other people were also saying it was stage. I mean,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: people just say whatever they want on the internet, And
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: so he made a post. He wrote, p and TA
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: crews are made up of youth and young adults, many
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: of whom come from trail side communities along the length
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: of the p and while most are just getting their
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: foot in the door along the path to a career
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: in public land management, they are hardworking, highly productive, and
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: ultra committed. While we provide some training, YadA YadA, there
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: is nothing that can fully prepare anyone to handle the
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: mental and emotional burden of providing aid to someone like
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: Robert under the circumstances that they found him in.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, I want to like acknowledge that because that
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: wasn't something I thought of right away, but I think
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: it was pretty traumatic to the people who found him,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: who were these young volunteers, and his body was in
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: the pretty dire, extreme state, and like he was so
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: close to death and they did save his life, but
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: it was like pretty traumatic for them, I think, And
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: you know, he also just said, these are professional searches.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: You know, we did a thorough search, and there was
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: no failure on the search and rescue teams on their side.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: The fact that like he was in a place where
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: they wouldn't even know to look, you know, eleven miles
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: from the trail is so far when you're thinking about
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: like that one he's going in the opposite direction that
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: he intended to go in, yeah, and two it's like
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: there had been these fires that made everything harder to navigate.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: And three it's I mean, there's so many The list
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: goes on, but like just the forest out there are
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: so dense you could be one hundred feet and not
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: have any way of like really seeing or getting closer
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: to finding someone totally. And so so the fact that
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: he was found was just really amazing and kind of
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: a just happenstance. Yeah, especially because I imagine if he's
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: this marathon runner, he's in pretty good physical shape, You're
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: not probably not carrying a lot of extra body fat,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: and that is something that you know, if you're going
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: without food, you would really be relying on. And the
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: fact that his body was able to sustain thirty days
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: in the wilderness is like mind boggling, totally mind boggling.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad that he's okay, and I'm glad that
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: Freddie got his dad back. Me too.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Freddie's the real hero of this story.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, wow, no one would know that he was
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: missing until Freddie was found. I know. Yeah, interesting that
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: he sent Freddie back. Maybe he knew that. Maybe he thought, well,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: Freddy's microchipped or has a collar, and someone will be like,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: this guy should have his dog. And I mean, my
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: last dog would have never left my side. He'd feel
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: like we're in this together, but only because he's like
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: disobedient and anxious, so it would have been useless to me.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: But wow, I wonder if Freddy knew it was a
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: dangerous situation and so he was like going to find help.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what an obedient dog. Yeah, sometimes I feel like
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: animals just know. Yeah, Well, I'm glad that we were
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: able to end on a happier note. And yeah, I'm
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: going to continue not hiking.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I will still hike, but I'm gonna
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: be very careful and I don't hike alone. That's good
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: because I'm too scared.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: You should be. Okay, I do have a wreck this week. Great.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: It's called Petty Crimes. It's a podcast that investigates real
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: life interpersonal drama to uncover who is guilty of a
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: petty crime. Oh my gosh, that sounds so good. It's
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: so good. It's like lighthearted. One of the hosts was
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: an SNL writer and the other is a retired model.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: Partry crime, mostly comedy, completely petty and yeah. They are
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: just so great. And every time I listen to them,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my mood is lifted. I love it. Yeah.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: Are they doing interviews or they're just talking about other
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: people's stories.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: They're the episodes I've listened to. They're just telling stories
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: people have sent them.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: Very cool. Yeah, okay, I'll definitely listen. My recommendation, I
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: can't remember if we've talked about this or if you've
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: watched this or not. I think my brother recommended this
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: documentary to me. It's not really true crime, but adjacent
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: in some ways. It's called Renfair.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: Never heard of it?
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it's so interesting. It is a three
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: part documentary that follows the Texas Renaissance Festival and the founder.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: It's in this small town in Texas and essentially I
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: think it's its own town. The founder is this really
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: bizarro guy who moved there and sort of bought a
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: town and then created the I think it's the largest
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: ren fair in the US. And there's a segment of
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: people who live there full time. Do they like full
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: times the dress? Yeah, not all of them, but some
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: of them. And the documentary is basically the guy who
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: started it, who goes by King George. He is getting
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: older and he's trying to decide who he's gonna make
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: the next director of the Renaissance Fair, and it is
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: like a battle for the crown. It is sort of
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: like what was that succession except Renaissance Fair And it
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: is so interesting and bizarre. There's also some like seedy,
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: sort of underbelly type of stuff that's going on, which
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: will lead into the true crime part of it.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: It's not a true.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: Crime documentary at all. It's just an interesting documentary about
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: the Texas Renaissance Festival.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: I know absolutely nothing about Renaissance fairs other than that
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: they exist, so I can't wait to watch it.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: It's really really interesting. And then it made me start
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: looking into the Renaissance Fair a little bit more after
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: I watched it, and I found this podcast. I don't
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: know that I should recommend it because I actually haven't
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: listened to it yet, but it's called Crime Waves Renaissance Texas.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: It's all about the Texas Renaissance Festival and they cover
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: multiple crimes that happen there throughout the ages, like there
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: was a murder that happened there, and there's been multiple
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: accusations of sexual assault.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: Oh god.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: And so I'm not recommending it, but if you listen
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: to it and like it, let me know, because I'll
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: probably listen to it as well.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: I'll probably listen. Yeah, well, thanks for listening. That's our
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: show today. We'll see you next week. Bye. If you
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: have a story for us, we would love to hear it.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: Our email is The Knife at exactly rightmedia dot com,
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: or you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: podcast or Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: by me Hannah Smith and me Patia Eating. Our producers
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: are Tom Briefogel and Lexis Samarosi. This episode was mixed
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: by Tom Bryfogel.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgareff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.