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Fitz Cahall: The Million-Signature Push to Save Public Lands · The Wild Idea

• 0:00
  [instrumental music] Welcome to our continuing conversation for a wild and changing world, exploring that intersection of human nature and our own wild nature. A little podcast we call The Wild Idea. My name is Bill Hodge, a complete and total wilderness nerd, wildlands nerd, usually joined by my friend and co-host Andrews Reynolds who had to step away from this recording today. But good thing is we still have a second podcast professional to join us today just happens to be our guest Fitz Cahall, who is host of the Dirtbag Diaries. I'm sure many of you are familiar with Fitz and with the Dirtbag Diaries, but we're gonna talk to him a bit about that. But we're also going to talk about his leadership in this initiative called Save Public Lands and 1000000 signatures that they're looking to collect by Public Lands Day so that we can let our elected officials know that we cannot continue to stand by while so many difficult things are happening to our public lands. So I think you'll really enjoy the conversation with Fitz. I can tell all of you guys, Andrews would be frustrated with me right now that I'm super excited that my corvids are back, blue jays back out the window. I also have five Tom turkeys that have been hanging out at my window, uh, for the last couple of weeks. So I find joy in small things in spite of all of the challenges that our wild places face. Uh, but we're super excited that you have joined us today and really excited to have Fitz Cahall join us. And with that said, let's get on to the conversation with Fitz here on The Wild Idea. Fitz, I am so excited to have you on. From, from my old radio days, the expression that seems to come to mind is longtime listener, 1st time caller [laughing]. But in this case, I'm a long time listener of the Dirtbag Diaries, and it's great to have a first time conversation with you here on The Wild Idea. Um, I thought I'd start out where I always tend to want to do this which is, can you tell our audience, the few that may not be aware of the Dirtbag Diaries what it's all about? And also the origin story about how you and Becca started Duct Taped & Beer. I'd love to hear sort of how that all got rolling.
• 2:08
  Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, 1st off, um, thanks for having me on show. I'm psyched to be here. Um,
• 2:15
  you know, the Dirtbag Diaries, it's, it's-- I, I wanted to create
• 2:20
  a digital version of a campfire, you know, because I, I feel like in my 20s I was very much like living this sort of, uh, life where it didn't make sense to a lot of my family. Like "What are you doing?" You're like climbing in Yosemite or living out of the back of a car. It, like, didn't seem normal. And I think this was quite a long time ago. This is 30 years ago now at this stage, and it, it sort of seemed different and radical. But what I found there is that there were people out there that were really following passions and turning them into livelihoods, turning them into ways, um, that built community, that created deep connections, not just to natural... the natural world, but to each other. And so many of those conversations were happening around campfires. And I just thought at some p-point like, hey, could I find a set of stories and turn them into something that allowed me to do that kind of broadly? And, um, I was a writer before. I'm still... I still think of myself as a writer, but I was working in, in freelance journalism, and that was a struggle. Like, I, I sort of joke it was kinda felt like naked subsistence hunting in a lot of ways, like, where it was just... it was a really [laughs], it was a battle to get, um, the stories I wanted to tell out there. And with the Dirtbag Diaries, I kind of like... I felt, I felt like I kinda had to close the chapter on writing, and I was like, "I'm gonna do something else with my life." That's cool. That's sad. But, you know, people reinvent themselves all the time. But in next little bit of time, I'm gonna take these stories that I wanted to share, and I'm gonna turn them into a podcast. And that podcast became the Dirtbag Diaries. And it was this incredible moment where, you know, the st one I did, maybe it was the second one I did, I wanted to make sure I could, like prove that I could do 2 in a row. But I sent out the second thing I did, I sent it out to 30 friends and, uh, the next day my 30 friends had listened to it. I could see it in numbers. And then the next day, 300 people had listened to it. And the next day, 3 thousand people had listened to it. And I knew in that moment that I kind of, um, I got a second chance at being a writer, being a storyteller. And for the last, um, almost 20 years now, it has been just this incredible... If it ended tomorrow, I would be like,
• 4:32
  "That's incredible." Like, I, I would... I don't want it to end tomorrow, but I look back at it and I'm just like, this took me to so many different places. It connected me to so many different people, and it allowed me to work on so many cool projects that my 27 year old self who started it would have been like, "Hell yeah!" So it's been this awesome labor of love. It's grown way beyond me. And that's, I think, one of the things I'm most proud of realistically about th-that show. So yeah.
• 5:00
  Dirtbag, it was a badge you deliberately reclaimed. Now nearly two decades in does the word mean the same thing to you today?
• 5:09
  You know, it's... I, I was talking about that w-with a good friend of, like
• 5:14
  dir-- you know, like does, does dirt bag mean the same thing for it? And I think it's broadened because, like, like back when we... When I was younger, um, i-it was this... it was very much this collection of people that were living in the dirt in Camp Four, in Yosemite, or in places like Joshua Tree. And what they've done is that they had removed all the extra clutter in their lives in order to focus on the thing that they cared the most about. And,
• 5:43
  you know, I think as I've aged, I've ev-- I don't think that the term dirt bag applies just to being a dirt bag climber in Camp Four. I think it applies broadly to people that pur-purpose above other things and to put passion forward in their lives and take the risks...
• 6:07
  That, you know, can feel like emotional risks. They can feel like financial risks to go do that, right? And so I think that that for me as I've aged... because I certainly am not a dirtbag climber living in Camp 4 anymore. I've got 2 boys and one's about to go into high school. You know, I have, I have a house, you know, all those things. So I don't look the same, but I think I still have that same ethos that, um,
• 6:30
  dr-- you know, really colored my life in those early years of it.
• 6:35
  So at Duck Tape & Beer, you, you have a, a magic rule, I understand it, that guides what you take on. And could you tell our audience what that rule is and when maybe it's cost you work that you'd otherwise would have wanted?
• 6:47
  Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that at the center of what we do
• 6:52
  is that we are gonna do work that fosters connections to the natural world. And I think I've broadened it a little bit to be like, it's also going to foster connections between each other, between communities, between people. Um, but at the, at the core of it, that's what we decided. Becca and I, when we started the company, Duck Tape & Beer, The Dirtbag Diaries had been going for a few years, and we were working online. I-I started what was, like, one of the 1st web television shows, and we realized like, oh, we need a company that can support these endeavors that we're doing here then kind of hold them. And we also, the same point, like,
• 7:28
  you know, it was like we had some great clients. Like, we were working with a lot of outdoor industry brands. We were working with National Geographic. But it was also like we were getting approached by banks or... And there's nothing wrong with banks. I don't mean to say that, but, like, it was like there was a lot of interest in what we were doing from a lot of different places. And I think we had to say to ourselves, like, "Are we starting, uh, the next hot advertising agency?" Are we starting the next, you know, big creative agency and/or are we doing what we want to do with our lives? And that is really, like, what we sat down and we thought, hey, like let's put some guardrails on this. Like, this will actually make it easier to make these decisions for us. And if it doesn't work, it's fine. It doesn't work. We can go do something else later on. And so for us, that was it. It's like we're like, we're gonna do stuff that fosters connections to the outdoors, period. Because we-- I believe people are better off with the outdoors in their life. And whether that sometimes means like a small moment on a winter day in a park, in a city, or whether that means like, ah, hiking the PCT as like some crazy bucket list item. Like these connections, we are most human, I believe, when we're outdoors with friends and loved ones. And like I think that that's for me was like, that was the work we wanted to do. We didn't know if it would work. And I think it felt ambitious enough, and it also
• 8:55
  made the decision making easier for the parameters for like what steps we took as a company. It just sort of all fell into place once we did it. It was way less confusing.
• 9:05
  It feels like it's like part vibe check and part pretty straightforward filter, right? Does it involve connecting people to the outdoors? And then is the vibe and the connection right? That's sort of what it feels like.
• 9:15
  Yeah. Yeah, it was e-- I mean, it was like funny too, 'cause I think it was like, is this a con-- and not that there aren't like a wide array of conversations that come up, but I think even like the shorthand was like, would this come up at a campfire? And you're like, well yeah, this would probably come up at a campfire. Like, that felt fine to us. Like, we're like, that was like another way of sort of doing that filter. But if it was us like trying to sell investment products, like that was never gonna be-- we were never gonna be good at that, Bill. Like, it's so clear. We are so r-- like, we're like good people and we're smart people, but w-we're so rough around the edges. And it was like this was a great way to figure out. Even the name Duck Tape & Beer, it was like this perfect litmus test for like if someone showed up and was like, "I don't get it." You're like, [clicking] "I don't think we're the right fit." And so we just tried in those early years to sort of create the best set of guard rails we could for ourselves as we went down the road. And, and it's great. Like, it's funny, like, you know, on a business standpoint, like Becca, like will,
• 10:16
  you know, be talking to somebody about business insurance and they're like, "'Duck Tape & Beer,' that's hilarious." And she knows right away that that person on the other line is like that she can, she can vibe with, that that's cool, like that they'll get it. And if they don't get it, though, like, "that's dumb," she's like, "This is probably gonna be a difficult conversation." So it's just been an awesome tool for us.
• 10:36
  Yeah, I mean, I hadn't even really even thought about the name itself almost becomes like a litmus test. Somebody gets it, they get it, right? And if they-
• 10:42
  Yeah.
• 10:42
  If it makes somebody go, "Oh, I don't know", then you're like, okay, well you're not the right fit anyways. So yeah, it makes perfect sense. You know, here-here's me staring up th-at this giant hill that you guys have made three hundred plus episodes over twenty million downloads. Most shows don't last even a fraction of that. Um, you know, what's kept you relevant? What, what do you think has kept it, you know, from that exciting start that you mentioned, like that first, you know, first episode and you sent it out to your friends and watched the numbers mushroom. But like how d-how do you-- how have you guys kept the secret sauce?
• 11:13
  That's a great question in terms of like...
• 11:17
  I don't-- I can't say for sure. I think I have some hunches, and one of it is I don't, I don't think that spending time outdoors,
• 11:26
  uh, is going away. It hasn't gotten any less relevant in itself. And I think the other thing that I, um,
• 11:34
  did is I, as I,
• 11:37
  I didn't sound... I-I don't hate to sound pretentious right now, but I didn't wanna be famous. I just wanted to tell stories, and I wanted to help other people tell stories, and I wanted to do all this. And so I think taking a step back from it, and I'm s-still very involved in the show. Like, I touch every single episode, I'm, I'm there. But like, like allowing more producers to come on and to, to, to engage with this work, and, and we are fortunate it to be in a financial place where we could do that. Allowing for more voices to be a part of this felt to me v-
• 12:08
  ... key to making sure that it grew beyond me, because I've maybe never been cool and I can guarantee you that I will never remain cool. Does that make sense? And like, that's something fleeting and ephemeral, and I didn't care to chase that. What I wanted is I wanted to hear something that made me feel something. I wanted to make something that made someone else feel something. Those were the goals, and I figured out-- And Becca and I did it together. Like, we figured out how to bring together an incredible team, an incredible community, and we evolved with them. And that was-- That's been the trick, is we've done that. Sometimes I think we could have done it faster. Sometimes, you know, it's just like, that's- You know, that's been the hurdle. I think that's, that's how we've made it, so yeah.
• 12:54
  Well, you guys obviously have done something right. Like i-i-it y-you end up where you're supposed to wind up is the way I always look at it, you know? And, you know, I think we share some DNA here in that, like, to me it's-- You know, I-I'm very interested in making sure the public understands the policies behind the places they go and enjoy and the-
• 13:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:10
  -the legislation that's behind that. I know you guys have also leaned into that. You know, I-I think about the early days as a listener of The Dirtbag Diaries. There's a lot of, like, adventure athletes and that sort of thing, but you guys have also leaned in a lot to helping ensure that whether you're a climber or a mountain biker or whitewater paddler or whatever, that you understand how those experiences have been made possible, I'll use the cliche by those who have come before us or by the policies that exist today. One of those places I think I am acutely aware that you guys have leaned into is Bears Ears in particular. Seems like that has been a real connection point. Can you tell me how that became like a real, uh, a real connection point for you and Becca?
• 13:50
  Yeah. Well, 1st off is like, [inhaling] I think there's this moment, right? And I remember being young, and I remember, uh, driving through the Southwest and, and kind of, you know, lived in, in Northern Arizona for a while, and we were able to kind of, like on our weekends, we'd go explore and we'd end up in parts of Bears Ears. And, and, um, I didn't-- I mean, I couldn't tell you the first thing... I could tell you the difference between Bureau of Land Management land and Forest Service land and national park. Like, maybe that was like the baseline level. And I-- The only reason I knew those differences is, like, I was gonna pay more for camping at one place than the other. So like, I, I was pretty, like... I was certainly like b- I didn't have a degree in this or anything like that. And at some, some point, you just start spending more time and you get curious. You get curious about the history of the place you're, you're on, right? You get curious about the forces that shaped it or, like why it is or who, um, kinda helped, you know, like with, with climbing, like who came before you, right? That was a big thing. And so for us, um, Bears Ears was a place that we spent, uh, time at when we were younger. Um, and then as th-through time, like, there just ended up being a project and, and, um, w-we were working around this idea of, of this concept and, and we would sort of be like...
• 15:10
  I think a lot of us, well no matter what sport we do or what we do, like,
• 15:15
  m-maybe you're an angler and maybe you're a climber, but you come into it and you say to yourself, "Hey, I'm just a climber." Like, "What can I do about this?" Like, "There's this problem out there." Like, "I don't, I don't know how to do any of this." And at some stage, I think if you stay in these passions and these sports long enough, you say,
• 15:31
  [sighing], "Oh, I'm not just a climber." Like, "I'm the person that's gonna help carry this from one generation to the next." And for us, Bears Ears was that moment where we were working around that idea of like, hey, this is a true thing. It's like let's find people that are working in their communities to support the places they love. And we ended up getting connected with, uh, our good friend Josh Ewing, who at the time was running Friends of Cedar Mesa, which was this tiny little non-for-profit. And they were working on trying to get protections for many of the incredible, incredible, um,
• 16:05
  sort of incr- just living landscape that is Bears Ears. There is so much culture, there is so much, um, history there, and it didn't have those protections per se, and they were working towards that. And as that happened, as we went to go tell that story, there was this broader push to create Bears Ears. And so all of a sudden, we found ourselves, eh, as a part of the momentum to create that monument. And, um, we were l- I mean f-wuh, it was a great honor, but we were invited in to kinda help do the storytelling around that creation of the monument, work with the tribes. Um, we were there after the 1st time they rescinded protections for the... and, and redid the boundaries for, for Bears Ears. And, um, you know, one of the things I'm most proud of is, like, that was a hard moment. It was in 2017. We'd just done all this work to highlight what was happening here. We brought in all these people, and it felt like we'd, we'd sort of been the marketing machine for this thing. And then all of a sudden there was no funding for Bears Ears. There was increased visitation. There were all these things, and you're like, dang, how do... Like, like I was part of this. How do we try to do that? And I think one of the things we, w-we t- again talked with our friend Josh, and it was like, this place needs a visitor center. And that wasn't coming anytime soon. Like, people needed to understand how to... 'Cause the, the cultural resources there, the, the dwellings, the, the rock art, all the incredible just... Uh, you know, this is a living landscape that people use on a religious level, and like, you have to have some education going into it, right? And we realized, like, that didn't exist, and I think we came together and we, um, worked, worked with our friends to, uh, through the community fundraise to build a visitor center, an education center that's still there, that is s-still serving essentially as that visitor center for that National Monument. And I was there back, you know, in the spring and it was so cool, you know. Like, we walked in, showed our kids. Our kids had never seen it. And to be like, we are part of the wave, we are part of this huge... Like, panel up on the wall of people who came together to build this and that... Yeah. So it's, it's, i-i-it's like for me, that's a pretty full circle moment of, like, when you can take your kids, like you're there. We're, like, going on a backpacking trip or doing climbing or all these things. Like, this is what inspired me and lit me up when I was a young man. And then, like, to be, like-- To kind of, like, show them what you can create alongside a community in support of these things, it felt really powerful. So yeah, I, I feel real grateful for um the work that we've gotten to do around Bears Ears and obviously also angry. You know? It's, it's like anger is not, anger is not, like, my default emotion. Like, that is not, that's not how I roll. I could be frustrated. I can be umm maybe overly righteous potentially if someone's probably called me that at some stage but I'm not angry. But I think that how umm that landscape has been turned into this political football, there's so much good work that's been done there. So much good work from, from, you know, a lo-you know having the, the tribes
• 19:20
  co-manage that landscape so that they can bring their knowledge to it. That was one of the revolutionary ideas I feel like in policy out there, and it was implemented 1st there, and that is incredible. Um, and to see some of those, you know, see all that work kinda get torn down, it's, it's deeply frustrating. No one, no one wants that. Like besides a few people who stand to make a profit off that, that's not what anyone asked for in this last election. No one was like, "Oh God, what's keeping me up at night is the boundaries of Bears Ears." That is like 0 people besides the mining companies or the oil and gas companies that stand to benefit from the opening of that landscape were worried about that in America.
• 20:03
  Yeah, I mean, and, and just so telling that, th-that like the ink had barely dried on that very sad proclamation day when they are already taking down the tribal logos from the signs and removing the signs. Like it was, it was like the punishment was half the point. It's, it feels like, you know, and it's just like so maddening. You know, there's, there's a lot swirling around all of us that love public lands, wild places and big adventure, and sometimes it's like your head's on a swivel, right? [laughs] Like it's just sort of you don't know which direction it's coming from next. And, and if I'm honest, it can be pretty taxing on the old mental health. And I-I'm curious, how do you process it all, particularly with, with like kids in the mix? Like you said, you got 2 boys, one going into high school. How do you hang on to a healthy mental image of what you're gonna be leaving them as a legacy?
• 20:55
  Yeah. Well,
• 20:58
  I don't get to control everything, right? Like, I don't get to control the legacy or the place I, I leave that my kids are left with, right? Like, this is a, this is a shared endeavor across many different people. But what I do wanna say is I want to say I tried. I love effort. Like, I love that. I love physical effort. I love mental effort. I love creative effort. That is what I truly love in my life, is bringing that because I feel alive when I do that. And for me, I look at it and I just want to see and make sure that my kids know that I tried, that I provided that effort. And that's huge to me because the landscape they have, the problems they will have, some of them will be similar, some of them will be different. But as long as they kind of come at it somewhat in a non-angry way and they apply creativity, uh, emotion and these things to it, they can solve a lot of, lot of problems. They really can. And so I think that that's the biggest thing for me is that, um, I... It has been a lot. Like, I think if you work in this space, and especially if you have connections to these landscapes, is that it can be, it can be a lot watching this complicated bad news, right? And I think, you know, one, I, I get solace from the, the knowing I'm trying, that I'm not just sitting here and being sad about it, that I'm actually trying. And then, you know, two, I get purpose out of it because I get to do it with great people who I respect and I like, and I'm, like proud to work alongside of. So that helps too.
• 22:33
  And, and, you know, open invite to anyone. You know, this work is actively happening out on the internet, right? It's happening in, in
• 22:42
  so many different ways and, and there's an open invite for people to come participate in this work, right? So I think... And, and then finally, I think I check out. I go and make sure I spend time on the land d-with people I love doing the things I love. Like, I c- I make that a point. I put that phone... When I'm done with the day, I put that phone away and I figure out how to be outside. I figure out how to walk down to the stream that's near our house in Seattle. We've got a beautiful little, like urban kind of n-nature center. It's couple blocks away. There's owls in there. It's, it's wicked. And I just, I just, I figure out how to do that. On the weekends, I go, I go spend time in the places I'm working for. And that to me,
• 23:23
  it... That's, it's not more Internet. That's certainly not like the way that I recoup. The way I recoup is less Internet, less anger,
• 23:32
  less frustration and more connectivity with people I love and the places I love. And that's how I kind of keep finding the energy.
• 23:41
  Yeah. More than, more than ever, we all have to lean into, you know, Edward Abbey's, you know, being the ha-half assed advocate, right? Like, you have to find time to spend time in these places. Like, the fight matters. I, I sometimes get frustrated. I've heard speeches at, you know, wilderness gatherings about it's our obligation to do it until we drop, until the next generation picks it up. And I'm like well, it's also our obligation to enjoy these-
• 24:02
  Yeah.
• 24:03
  These pursuits and these places and that sort of thing. More of the conversation after a word from those who support Wild Ideas.
• 24:11
  I'm Eric Malmborg with the Eagle Summit Wilderness Alliance, and you're listening to The Wild Idea. You've shown up and stepped out front on this Save Public Lands campaign. Uh, it-it's built on a shift from what we've just been talking about, that sort of playing defense and having so many things coming at us to playing offense. What was the moment you decided storytelling wasn't enough and that you had to be involved in the process of organizing?
• 24:37
  Yeah. Um, well, I think that quietly for me, I-I've always... um, I've had a-- I've never had a really tough time calling myself an activist. I think sometimes like people put [laughs] that on their LinkedIn bios, and I've just like, uh, for whatever reason, I'm just like, "I'm not that." I don't, I don't know why. Like, it's not that I don't wanna be or like that I don't respect it. It's like I have tons of friends who I would put in that category, and for some reason, I've never really seen myself as that. Like, I've seen myself there to be supportive. I've seen myself there to, to lend my creativity to movements, and, um, I've been, you know, very honored to be asked in to help collaborate oftentimes behind the scenes. And sometimes I just f-like,
• 25:18
  like, I'm not comfortable in the spotlight. That's like a funny thing for a guy who started a podcast to say, I know. But, like, the truth of it is, like default, I'm pretty happy not being out front. But I-- We just saw this moment where it's like, "Huh, we've done enough of this work. We have enough understanding of this. We have enough understanding of the architecture of the internet. We have enough of these relationships. We know there's a desire for people that from, like different communities, different voting blocs to work together around these issues." And for us it was like could we start to connect it? Could we put this infrastructure in place? And, you know, we've been-- it-, it's been incredible. We've, you know, like, and it's certainly not just Becca and I too. It's like there's been super strong leadership from the community and, like, uh, we've had Outdoor Alliance which represents many rec groups across, um, the country. We've had the Conservation Alliance which represents much of the outdoor industry and funds so much good work. We've had the Backcountry Hunters & Anglers who I'm sure you're familiar with too that have, um, been a leader in the public land space for, for decades now. And we had The MeatEater who's sort of like th-the hunting and fishing world's version of what Duct Tape and Beer is, um, join up. And so we started there, and that was like a, it was a working group for us. It was something like c-is this sort of a possible to actually not just talk, not just kinda collaborate around issues but actually work together? Can we do this? And then from there, it's really grown, and it's been incredible. Ultimately, you know, we love all the orgs involved are incredible when we need people. Our goal is to, like have one 1000000 people come forward and say, "Hey,
• 27:00
  I care about a place, and you may not care about the place, but I will care about your place if you care about my place. And we are all connected by this, and we can let go some of our differences in this moment in time," which seems like a crucial moment for public lands. If we let go of those and work together,
• 27:19
  we can convince our elected officials to knock this stuff off, to make it untenable. And so our goal is to, to generate 1000000 signatures, and then these wonderful organizations that we're working with, they can carry them to DC into state houses. I cannot do that as an individual person. Like, that is not me. I don't know how to do that, uh, but I do know people that do. What I can do is I can raise my voice, and I can speak my passion, and I can gather people, and I can do that, and I can provide the energy so that those nonprofits can go do that work in the DC, in DC and in statehouses. And that's what-- that's why I got involved. That's like what I saw and, and, and that was the moment where Becca and I were like, "Huh, we have a role to play in this moment in time. Um, we don't exactly know how to do it, but we'll figure it out." And we sorta had this mantra of just being like, "Hey, we're gonna jump out of a plane. We'll build this parachute on the way down. We'll see if it works." And it sometimes has been, it's been at times extremely stressful because it sort of felt like am I diving into an unfilled swimming pool, or will there be water there when we show up? And we've just launched, and it's been an incredible start. I mean, we have, uh, uh more than 900000 signatures to go, so we need all the help we can get. But it's a, you know, we're a few days in, and it's incredible to see the outpouring of support and incredible to see, um, more orgs come and join veterans organizations, climate organizations, um, and we're working around that. And we have three demands. It's like no more selloffs, no more backroom deals, right, and, and no more giveaways to foreign mining companies 'cause like this is-- that's what we've seen in the last two years, and we're tired of it. We've had enough. We're ready to play offense. And so many of the issues, we've sort of broken them apart, roadless rules, Bears Ears, right, border wall in Big Bend. And the truth of it is like they're all a part of something bigger, and if we show up and we each go to bat for the places we care about at the same time using our voices even if they are different voices,
• 29:23
  we have a good chance of stopping a lot of these bad things if we treat them holistically. So that's been our attempt to do so. It's not perfect. There's always room for, like adding more people in, but this is what we've been trying to do. And, and anyone is welcome frankly. Like, like it's, it's come b-come be a part of it. Like, like if you care about somewhere, I care about somewhere, let's do that together. Let's figure this out.
• 29:46
  Yeah, you mentioned the sort of the three pillars: No sell offs, no giveaways, no backroom deals. I'm curious wh-why those three and why keep it that spare?
• 29:54
  Yeah. Well, you know, I come at it, and it's like let's... Like, i--
• 30:00
  the word common ground is overused. I like, I'm like, oh God, I d- I was about to say that.
• 30:05
  It's, it's a new podcast in our space now too, by the way. [laughing]
• 30:08
  Yeah, it is. Yeah, no sorry. It's like, it's, it's-- and it's... You know, that's fine. Um...
• 30:14
  But I do think there's an effort to be like, what can we build around? You know-
• 30:17
  Right.
• 30:17
  Like you gotta start at being like, what connects us versus what divides us and those for me, those 3 demands, like the no selloffs, the no backroom deals, the no giveaways, like that comes back to, to
• 30:33
  just like what we've seen. It connects so many of the landscapes that have been impacted: Boundary Waters, Big Bend, Bears Ears, Grand Staircase-Escalante, the roadless rules areas like Oak Flat in Arizona. Uh, I am forgetting places upon places, right? Data centers in the deserts in the Southwest. Like all these things all fall under those three demands is the American people have been removed from this process, and right now we say enough. And so for me, I built those because I felt like when I went and asked people, I wanted as many people that could participate to do so. And if that's common ground, I'm all for it. But
• 31:16
  it just seemed like something we could all work towards and something that was like an agreement that should be upheld by our government. Because frankly put, that's their job. Their job is not to make other people richer. Their job is to, like provide this and manage these lands for the American people. And frankly put, that's, that's not what's been happening. Like, it just isn't.
• 31:36
  No, not at all. I mean, I mean, all 3 of those things are things that are exactly going on behind all of these stories that, that, that, that both of our platforms are bringing forward to people. You know, the message seems to be explicitly electoral, quote, "We'll remember in November," and it is aimed at the 2026 midterms but you're also insisting that this is a coalition of people who, who don't all vote the same, right? I think we saw that in the public land selloff pushback and, you know, you, you brought up, you know, meat eater and, and backcountry hunters and anglers. I think we probably all can acknowledge that there's a lot of people in the hook and bullet crowd who maybe don't exactly vote the same as maybe those of us in the conservation space, but...
• 32:17
  Yeah, but there's also-- it's also funny 'cause, like, there's a lot of people in the climbing space or in the mountain biking-
• 32:21
  Sure.
• 32:21
  -space that don't all vote the same too. I mean, like, it's a little, like m-maybe less diverse, but I actually, like when you talk to people, it's not all [claps] it's, you know, like it's not all the same, right? It's like we s-we tend to-
• 32:32
  Right.
• 32:32
  -think of it as one way, but it's not all the same. So I didn't mean interrupt you, but I just wanna jump in and say that too.
• 32:37
  [inhaling] No, I mean, that's, that's a good point. N-no, no community is, is universal in its perspectives and, and certainly not universal in i-in its, you know, behavior inside the, uh, the voting booth in November. How, how, how do you keep the electoral framing from tipping it into a partisan campaign? It's been, you know, that's been, to me, that's been a [chuckling], well, I'm gonna say a 60 plus year challenge of making public lands or space that I know very well, the specifically designated wilderness areas to not be partisan. Like, how do you keep it from tipping into the partisan, I wonder?
• 33:10
  Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a trick, right? I think that that's like a question that a lot of people are grappling with, but I th-th-- and, and [clears throat] I get it. Like
• 33:21
  if you look at, like where these problems are stemming from, they're, they do skew towards one side, frankly put. Like it's hard not to kind of like witness this and be like,
• 33:31
  okay, is this... Does that mean that, like... I-I, I just,
• 33:36
  I just don't believe that
• 33:38
  all the Republicans in Congress are like anti-public lands. Like they have to negotiate, they have to do deals, they have to, like work through their agendas and somehow the, the public lands have ended, like up on the wrong side of the agenda, frankly put. And I, I don't know, but I know it's not like...
• 33:59
  I know we just need to show people that we won't tolerate it. And like that's where I get, get, get to is I think that there's just some basic levels of like, hey, this is part of the contract you make with the American people, no matter what side of the aisle you're on, period.
• 34:16
  Do I think it's perfect? Do I think it's like... Uh, like I'm not like a Pollyanna being like, oh, we'll change everyone's mind or people are gonna magically vote this way. But if we don't do it, I know how it's gonna turn out. And so to me, I'm like, well let's at least go engage because I do think that there's been people um, that have been working, willing to work across the aisle on this and it's, it's shown up and, um, you know, I think sometimes there's frustrations around that, that there should be more people that are working across the aisle. Um, but that said is, I'm like,
• 34:49
  I think, I think either way, you know, and then I also look at it like it's not just about this election, right? Like the, the next congress,
• 34:56
  when, when it goes into session, it will have the most new faces no matter who wins, one side or the other, of any congress since the first congress, right? So there is an incredible amount of turnover and my hope is that these orgs we're working with, they can go in and they can talk to republicans or they can talk to democrats, but they can say, "Look, people in your district, people in your state care about this issue." This is where we're starting the conversation from. That gives them a sort of floor from which to work from, and you need a floor. You need firm footing from which to begin and make an argument for collaboration with someone who d-you don't necessarily would have voted for or you don't necessarily see eye to eye, but you need some sort of firm place. And this is, this is what I think our community can deliver, is we can deliver our support to help those people do the work in Congress to at least be having those conversations. I know that sounds like a lot. I know there's l-a lot of moving pieces in that.
• 35:57
  Uh, I'm fine with that, but I just like... I don't know. I think our community can do that work to help our nonprofits.
• 36:02
  I, I agree. What-- and there-, there's so much data, right? You know, seventy four percent of the polled public supported keeping Bears Ears protected. Like it's not... We're not working from like a...
• 36:15
  And that wasn't, you know-- and that 74% wasn't even... That's not like nationally. That 74%, I believe is in the state of Utah.
• 36:21
  In Utah, yeah. Utahans are crazy.
• 36:23
  Yeah. And that, that state is not a purple state, uh, a quote-unquote "purple state". That is something-- that's a state that revotes reliably Republican, and yet a lot of people in that state would prefer to see that place protected which is what's so frustrating about it because you clearly see that some backroom deals are being cut when something-- When that polling lines up that way and then the actions of our elected officials the other way, that says something is broken to me.
• 36:47
  Yeah, I mean we ha- we have an incredibly narrowly divided Congress. You know, the, the margins [laughs] are razor thin in both chambers but when it comes to public lands, the numbers are not razor thin. They, they are overwhelmingly compounding the number of folks no matter political affiliation that value public lands s-. Yes, some may value them for resource extractive purposes, but most of them value them for the same ways that any recreationist or anybody who knows that their lived experience is curated by having these amazing landscapes whether they're out there backdoor or they're where they go to spend, you know, their vacation time. They're, you know, it's just
• 37:31
  we're not, we're not working from a minority, I guess, is what I'm saying. So I, I guess sayin' the signatures land, you hit the 1000000 number and the midte- midterms come and go w-what does winning look like for you year in and year out? Like how do you put the coalition you built with those million signatures to use in the future? And you know, we've had, we've had Adam Kramer on from, you know, Outdoor Alliance. We've had, had Paul Hendrickson on a couple times and I know those couple guys that are working with you on this effort were-- W-we have you on because we're working with you on this effort. We wanna see the, the million signatures, but what-- How do you put that coalition to work beyond November? Uh, you mentioned one way which is in January we're gonna have an incredible number of new members of congress. Like, well, what are the other ways we put this, this, uh, coalition to work?
• 38:17
  I was telling somebody today about this, about, about this project we're working on and they said we actually are all pretty different, like the, the communities and the orgs 'cause if we were so similar, we would have started working together long, long ago. And we've been collaborating, we've been talking for many, many more than a decade. Like the-- Some of these orgs have been talking with each other or even like, you know, sharing notes and, and kinda figuring it out, right? But like truly working together is I think it's really easy to be like, oh, we need to create something lasting and durable. And I think sometimes like I tend to be like a pragma-, like an optimist, optimistic pragmatist is how I would call myself where I'm like, well let's just do it once, right? Like let's figure out how to work once around a moment and maybe it'll get easier to do that. And that's kind of my hope beyond this is that it just gets easier for these different sections of our country to work together around these issues. And I feel like this project is one step forward in that direction. It's not the last step. Um, the durability of it moving forward will depend on who keeps carrying it into the future, right? It'll depend on the success of it. Um, is this-- Do we gain something out of working together hopefully? And I think if we can do that, I think that's a, that's a great step in the right direction. What I would like to see is I would like to see public lands stop being a political football or the, the removal of, of protections for a place like Bears Ears is, it's almost like a form of revenge. That needs to end. That's not how we-- That's not how we manage anything. Like if you're a businessman, is that how you manage your assets? You don't take revenge. You don't do that. Like that's-- You, you manage things to grow wealth and wealth in this country looks like many different things, right? It can be shared, shared financial resources, but it also can be like something that makes us healthy. Something that can provide clean water, right? That's-- There's so many forms of wealth and it's like what I want to see is I want to see this stop being like this tug-of-war between this frankly put like one side has been tugging a lot harder using it as a form of revenge and that is crappy and I would like to see that end. And I think, you know, I-- Like even recently it was like, it was wild someone pointed out about the recent issue in Yosemite National Park about developer wanting part of the park in order to develop a private resort. So something that belongs to many
• 40:44
  becomes the domain of the people that can afford it.
• 40:48
  That's, you know, like I'm flat out against that, like period. I'll just say that, right? And when I look at that, I wanna take that off the table because that has been off the table. That resort or that push to take that land has been around for a long time through several different administrations, both republican and democratic except now that idea has found an administration that is open to the idea of taking something that belongs to all of us and turning it into the domain of a few. And that's what I hope we can get past is we can get to a place where this-- that kind of thing is just off the table, period. And we can argue about the other stuff later. We can argue about should the Roadless Rule be amended or adapted. We can argue about how we manage our forests, right? I think that that's all fine. That's-- We're always learning. If we're using science, we're learning. If we're, we're collaborating, we're learning. But like we need to take the, the truly...
• 41:51
  We need to take the grift off the table, frankly put. And I know I may be stepping out and now all of a sudden I don't sound bipartisan there, but that's the truth. It's like the grift needs to come off the table.
• 42:00
  Yeah. I, I think when you talk about one side, I think it's very easy for people to understand you are not talking about the generic republican. You're talking about this specific administration. I, I'll--
• 42:11
  I worked on land legislation that, that successfully crossed the finish line and, and, and- ... became law protecting a part of the Cherokee National Forest in the state of Tennessee as wilderness. And I worked with 2 Republicans to do that, Lamar Alexander and Bob Corker. Um, Bob Corker stood with me in Chattanooga and, and said, "I have never received so much goodwill and praise for anything I ever did when I was a sitting US senator than I did when I was part of passing the Tennessee Wilderness Act." Like we-- I think maybe when you talk about this doesn't have to become sustainable, this might just be the reset to remind folks re- regardless of party that when you step up for these places and you're not grifting and trying to find a personal gain for these places, that you will be rewarded by the love and affection, whether you're interested in that love and affection when it comes to the voting booth or just that you know you're doing the right thing. And, and yeah, I, I, I love that actually the word grifting came into this conversation because that's what's going on here. This isn't like some partisan, [inhales] you know, well, it's always been better for Republicans to sell out public lands. It's not been that case. As a matter of fact, they've benefited a lot from being-- You know, we can-- I can go back and talk about how many [laughs] Republicans voted for the Wilderness Act 19-- uh, back in 1964. But yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's just I think it's really important to, to remind everybody that this is, this is really,
• 43:37
  uh, a, for the people issue, not a for one party or the other issue, so ...
• 43:43
  Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 43:45
  I wa- I wanna ask you, how do people
• 43:48
  get involved? Like s-- How do they add their name to, to that million list? How do they think about getting involved in, say, Public Lands but also that we're maybe also asking them to comment on the Roadless Rule rescission, or we're asking them to comment on, you know, specific actions like the Roadless Rule or the shrinking of the 2 monuments in Utah or what's been going on at the border at Big Bend? But how do they get involved specifically in this and be part of those, those 1000000 names that you want to, you want to collect going into this?
• 44:19
  Well, we try to make it really easy, 1st off, is that we're, we're not out, like, we're, [chuckles] we're not using this campaign to fundraise. We're not using it to do any of this. It's super simple. It's a super p- simple process. It requires you going to savepubliclands.us. There's a big button that says sign the petition, and it takes about a minute total. Um, you can learn more about the issues we're working on on that website, um, and even more, there's links to articles too. What's happened in Bears Ears, what's happened, uh,
• 44:48
  with Roadless Rule, various issues that all fall under the kind of 3 demands that we have. So if you want to learn about it, there's resources there to do it. But if you're like, hey, I know enough about this, I want to take action, it's a pretty quick, simple process. You're right. There is a lot going on. There are a lot of things to sign. It is sometimes unclear of whether or not our participation is even working, and I would even argue that it's clear that they're actually often being ignored. And that is a shame. But they want us to stop. They want us to, like, get frustrated with being ignored and then just shut up. And frankly put, like,
• 45:24
  if you care about these issues, please come participate. And beyond that, it's like, it, it's like, I mean, s- like, not everyone should be living on social. I know that that is not where the world happens, but social media is a powerful tool, but also your, your ability to text friends, your ability to talk about this with friends, to share it, to connect different communities. Like, there are a lot of ways into this, and we've had, uh, like so far though, I think one of the most incredible things is that we've had just people reach out to us and be like, "Hey, I know some people at different organizations working..." Uh, and, you know, we had one person from South Carolina be like, "Hey, I know a lot of the people that run non-for-profits around public lands or land and fishing and sportsmen in South Carolina. Can I connect you with everyone?" And we were like, "Hell yeah, you can!" And so there are a lot of people probably listening to this show that have the ability to kind of keep increasing and connecting. It's not always just, like, getting online and raging about that. That's not what we're always asking for. We're asking for participation that can look a lot of different ways. It can be, um, whether it's funding, whether it's, uh, connecting us with different groups, you know, sending us ideas, sharing, amplifying, connecting us with brands that are likeminded. There's ways for you to participate in this campaign, and I just en- invite you to go check out the website, see where it is. I mean, on simplest level, if feel like you're hearing this, please just take a minute. Go sign the petition. I'm... The 1000000, the 1000000 goals, the 1000000 signatures, when that became the goal, I was a little terrified by that. Like, I was just hoping to make sure that we made a bunch of noise, and then it was like, oh no, this just got real. So, [chuckling], so, uh, I'm like a, feeling a little bit of, like, a terrified climber out on, out on lead right now, uh, doing this work. So if, if y- if anything we've said today speaks to you, I c- I really would encourage you just please take a moment, help us out, do it. We need you. We need you to become one of those 1000000 people. And that's, that's, you know, that's my hope.
• 47:17
  Well, I have every confidence that you're gonna get there. We're gonna certainly encourage folks over and over again, go to the website, sign up, sign the petition, be involved, be a part of the million. Uh, I, I firmly hang on to the belief, not just the hope, but the believe, and a reminder that Terry Tempest Williams says hope is a verb, but I have the belief
• 47:39
  that this moment, as hard and frustrating as it can be, is gonna be the fuse that got lit, um, and we're gonna see a return, uh, to valuing public lands the way we should, uh, investing in those public lands and the people who care and steward for them. Uh, but it starts with getting involved and engaging now. And so Fitz Cahal, thank you so much for coming on the Wild Idea Podcast. Have been a longtime fan of the Dirtbag Diaries, been a longtime fan of the work that you and Becca do go- that goes beyond just the podcast, uh, to being engaged, and thank you so much for stepping out for Save Public Lands and, and just hoped, hope to have you back again real soon.
• 48:19
  Yeah. Thanks Bill. I, I really appreciate being on here, and thanks for doing what you do 'cause it's, it's crucial. We're all part of the same team.
• 48:24
  Coming up on the Wild Idea Podcast, we retrace our old salt conversation with Marshall Johnson, the Chief Conservation Officer with Audubon. We dig into the spreadsheets with an analysis of the economics of rural Western counties that have vast swaths of public lands, and we have a conversation with Amy Cordalis from Ridges to Riffles about the now free flowing Klamath River. We love bringing you these explorations of the intersection of wild nature and our own human nature. If you enjoy the show and you wanna support our continued efforts, you can buy us a coffee which has a link you can find on our website at thewildidea.com. Any gift of support helps. While you're there, be sure and subscribe to our newsletter. Take a minute to recommend us to a friend. Let's all lace up the boots. Let's get back out there, and when we do, we'll see all of you on down the trail.
• 49:09
  [instrumental music plays] The Wild idea is a production of Wild Idea Media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bryn Russell at Podlad. Digital support by Holly Wilkoszewski at Daypack Digital. Our theme music Spring Hill Jack is from Railroad Earth and was composed by John Skehan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Laura Hodge. You can find The Wild Idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcasts. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating. And if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at thewildidea.com.