Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller: Docu: A Fake Pregnancy, a Web of Lies, and a Fatal Crime. How Taylor Parker’s deception shocked a Texas community

Transcript

Killer Thriller: Docu: A Fake Pregnancy, a Web of Lies, and a Fatal Crime. How Taylor Parker’s deception shocked a Texas community · Legally Brunette

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Killer Thriller DOCU edition. I'm your host,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Jennifer Fessler. So today we're diving into one of the
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: most shocking and I must I feel like you guys,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: I say this a lot, but seriously, one of the
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: most disturbing true crime cases in recent memory. I mean
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: this one is whoa The story at the center of
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Netflix's new documentary, Maternal Instinct is the name of it,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: you guys. And this doc follows the story of Taylor Parker,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: who is a young woman claiming to come from a
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: wealthy family, claiming to who fell for a man named
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Wade Griffin who was a local hog trapper in a
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: small East Texas town. And they meet and their relationship
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: seems great, and within months she announces that she's pregnant.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: And then as this pregnancy mounts, her family and her
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: partner and the wider community, they all begin to sort
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: of voice their doubts and then this shocking truth surfaces
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: and there are the most horrible, unspeakable consequences. It's just
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: the story is horrific, but it is beautifully told by
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: the director who is joining us today, Jessica Dimmick, who
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: is an award winning filmmaker known for her deeply human
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: approach to storytelling. Jessica takes viewers beyond the headlines to
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: explore the people at the heart of this tragic case
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: and the lasting impact of a crime that shocked the nation.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: We'll talk about the challenges of telling such a sensitive story,
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: the process of bringing the documentary to life, and the
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: deeper themes that emerged along the way. Jessica, thank you
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: so much for joining us. I'll be honest with you,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: I don't remember this story in the news. I'm from Texas,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: originally southwest Houston. Yeah, and this wasn't that long ago, right,
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: this happened.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: This is a twenty twenty case, which maybe is part
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: of it. But I also hadn't heard of this until
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: I was brought the story, you know, in to consider
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: directing this, and I was surprised by that.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: That was sort of my first thought when I, you know,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: sort of wrapped my head around what had happened.
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: I was like, how is it? This is?
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: How is this story escaped me? I mean, I've been
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: living in New Jersey, you know, when this happened, But still,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: what was it? So I'm sure you are introduced to
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: a lot of potential documentaries that people that want you
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: to direct them. What was it about this story that
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: drew you in?
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, there is there's a brutality and a senselessness
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: to the crime that happens to Reagan. There's also just
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: like a kind of had scratching element for how Taylor Parker,
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: the types of manipulations that she was, you know, involved
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: in the idea that she thought something like this could work.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: It was also this like, you know, theme of motherhood
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: that I thought was really interesting, you know, which we
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: can talk about. But you know, I just thought that
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: I had a lot of a lot of layers.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was very and again I do a lot
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: of these. I watched a lot of true crime. This one,
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: for whatever reason, this really freaked me out. And I
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: think that there were there were a lot of reasons
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: for that, but one of which was that I didn't understand.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: And I'm assuming that you asked Taylor's family if they
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: wanted to be part of the documentary. I'm just guessing
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: that they probably didn't correct Taylor.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Taylor's Taylor. You know. We Yeah, that we didn't
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: hear from members, and.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: I would Yeah, I figured that, but so hard to
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: sort of figure out where this all came from, right,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Like it was, every single bit of this documentary was fascinating, scary, fascinating, thrilling,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: And but I felt like, there's no way, it's hard
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: to tell how she got. Please forgive me. I I
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: don't want to be you know, I want to try
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: to give everyone grace. But how she got so fucking crazy?
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Like what happened?
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: Because again, I mean we had we.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Heard snippets of her mom and what you know she
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: was saying, and that she had relationship with the granddaughter.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: But what was Taylor's past like that she turned so pathological?
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean from all accounts, it seems like
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: this was a very long pattern in terms of lying.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Lying was like, you know, something well established in her
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: in the accounts from her past. No violent history. I mean,
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: there was a there was a an ex boyfriend you know,
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: who talks about like her maybe like running around after
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: him in the kitchen with a knife or something. I
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: thought it like by all accounts, had never been had
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: never gone to jail, had never been arrested, but had
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: always lied. And you know, in talking to this, in
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: talking about this story, me and my team sometimes when
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: we were describing it, we'd be like, you know, we
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: all knew someone like Taylor at some point in our lives. Yes, yeah,
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: in terms of like the person that's at school and
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: always has embrace or crutches or is always you know,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: coming back from vacation and telling these wild stories about
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: you know, a boyfriend and you just know that it's
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: not real, fantastical things about her family, Like, we have
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: all known someone like this up until a certain point,
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: and so there's certainly a pathological liar aspect to her
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: personality for sure, But then her ability to kind of
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: take it to the extremes and also to this violent
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: level is crazy.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking that I've no idea what her IQ is,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: but she has to be very bright, very right. I mean,
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: this is not the stuff that she concocted. Even understand
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: how that would have been possible for I don't know,
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: And it sounds like she didn't come from means. It's
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: not like she had a lot of money to buy
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: twenty different cell phones and voice changers, and I don't
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: know how you know she had the wherewithal to come
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: up with these plots and these schemes and then execute them.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: She's clearly she's got to be. It's the something I
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: always say about Taylor is like she's always one step
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: ahead of people, but she's never two steps ahead of people.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: I feel like say, I'd just say it with that
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: for a second.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: You know, when you think about what she actually does,
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: like what, how would she ever have gotten away with this?
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: How would she ever have gotten even like through the
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: night with the crime. I mean, there was no way
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: that this was gonna work. It's a tiny community. Everyone
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: had been questioning whether or not she's pregnant. There's a
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: dead woman that she's connected to, you know, miles away.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: It's like, but her ability to kind of manipulate and
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: throw people off her trail is very strong. But then
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: her ability to think think two steps ahead, three steps ahead,
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: four steps ahead, like really think like a chess player
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: is quite weak. She's always just scrambling to like get
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: through and avoid being held accountable in the moment, and
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: she will do whatever it takes to not be held
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: accountable in the moment.
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: There are so many examples of that.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: I was looking throughout it for like a psychotic break
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: almost because at the beginning of the film it felt like, yes,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: she was definitely definitely whacky, and you heard her friends,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: but she had friends, and you heard them describe her as,
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: you know, a great friend. She was always desperate for attention.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: They were very aware of that, but as somebody that
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: they could kind of count on. And certainly these women
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: that these young women that you interviewed, there's nothing there
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: was nothing that seemed out.
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: Of the ordinary about them. They seemed like they are
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: right and they are lovely young women.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: So what happened, Like, where was where's the disconnect? Because
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: also at the beginning of it, just the story again,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is I didn't know what exactly how
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: this was going to play out, but it all seemed
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: sort of almost I could consume it.
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: I could kind of understand it. Okay, here's what's happening.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: This girl is she falls in love and they said
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: all she ever wanted to do was be the pretty
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: girl that got the guy. She finds her cowboy, and
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: she starts lying about her wealth and her background and
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: all of them. Okay, okay, but there's a huge leap
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: right from that to stabbing a woman to death and
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: taking the baby, right, and like, where do you feel
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: like there was in your following the story, you could
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: you could ever see that break like what happened?
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: It's a really good question. The way I think about
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: it more is that the break happens long before the
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: trajectory of the story. It's just that the behaviors that
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: she's manifesting, we assume are going to stay within the
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: realm of normal. Right, So, Like, you know, faking a
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: pregnancy is not the most uncommon thing in the world.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: People have faked pregnancies. It's not a very kind thing
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: to do. It's not a particularly moral thing to do.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: But faking a pregnancy to keep a man is a
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: thing that a woman has done before. But they have
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: a fake miscarriage, they eventually fess up that, you know.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Like it's so it's like, you know, she's using these
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: tactics that are within this realm of normal. But I
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: think something is broken in her a long time ago.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: And I you know, I certainly cannot suggest or pretend
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: to know like how to pathologize her, But you know,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: I was so struck by the idea that she would
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: go to the hospital. You know, her friends Mackenzie and
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: Abbey are talking about she'd go to the hospital. She
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: had MS. She had you know, cancer, she had seizure,
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: she had had a stroke, like and she would go
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: to the hospital for these conditions, and she was sent
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: home all the time without a diagnosis, you know, or
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: with like looking at her blood work and saying, you know,
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: you don't have the diagnosis of this thing you're claiming
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: to have. I always think about, like, there was quite
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: possibly a diagnosis she could have been sent home with.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: You know, it wasn't the thing she was in the
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: hospital for. But someone along the way maybe could have
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: or should have realized that this woman was very unwell.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: Not right.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think I mean, I remember that she
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: would go to different doctors. I mean, I'm sure she
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: was so good at sort of like sure moving around
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: that I'm sure she didn't see the same doctor for
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: the same stuff. But yeah, I would have thought that
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: in her how many how old was she Jessica.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: She was twenty six when this when she meets Wade,
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: She's twenty six, twice divorced with two kids, so she
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: lived a lot at twenty six.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: You would have thought that there would have, I don't know,
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: been some indicator. And then there's a you only had
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: so long to tell the story but the fact that
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: she wasn't completely clear to me.
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: I know, she didn't have.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: Custody of her other son and daughter, but they were
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: still she could still see them, correct, like they were
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: living with the mother maybe.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, from what I understand she was, it was like
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: a joint custody with her son, who she you know,
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: by all accounts from just in terms of like me
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: reading court, you know that the husband and his biological
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: father had no issue with the son seeing his mother Taylor,
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: but that she wouldn't show up. She would say, oh,
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: I'm coming. You know, it's his birthday. She wouldn't show up.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: It's his graduation from kindergarten, she wouldn't be there. It's
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: truly heartbreaking. So she had a son that she could
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: see but she just didn't see. And she had a
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: daughter that a lot of times was staying with her
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: mother and sometimes was staying with her brother as well.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: So you know, technically there wasn't like any kind of
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: court mandated removal of her children.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: You would know this better than I do, right, you
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: do this professionally, but like you can't for me, I
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: watch these, I can't make sense out of them. There's
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: never any like one more. I'm like, okay, that makes sense.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: But I am always searching, you know, like, how did
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: she get here? I mean, so she had two children.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Was it she was simply that she wanted to hang
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: on to wait or do you think that she it
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: wasn't the idea of having another child. Who knows, but
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: she had these two children already, So it was like,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: was it that she so desperately wanted another one?
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: I don't think so. I mean, listen, I am not
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: in her head. I you know, this is just my
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: personal opinion from the way that thing's un I think
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: what she wanted desperately was to keep wide. I didn't
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: get the sense that what she desperately wanted was to
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: be able to mother again. I don't really when it
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: comes to I think she wanted to be able to
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: tell him that she could mother again. I think she
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: was in a part of the country with you know,
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: very specific gender roles. She's a young woman, she's already
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: had a hysterectomy. I wonder if you know, and a
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: lot of value is placed on women and their ability
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: to reproduce, you know, and so I wonder if she
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: was frightened that without being a mother, she couldn't keep
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: this man. I don't know if she ever asked him.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: I don't know if she ever broached that conversation with him.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: It's a big assumption, but I don't in my heart
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: of hearts, my personal opinion, I don't actually think. And
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: this is the like this is also tragic, but this
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: is like the extra tragic part. I don't really think
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: it was about having a baby that she abducted, because
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: if she cared that much, I think, you know, the
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: baby did not survive.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: Right, I found no in watching it. I that's I
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: completely agree with that.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: I don't. To me, I don't.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: I still I don't even know what it was about.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: I think she was a really unwell woman because did
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: she have that was she so obsessively in love with Wade?
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: Maybe?
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I guess I just couldn't. I couldn't
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: figure out what was driving her, and that was so weird.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: I have these questions that just occurred to me that
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: I want to just throw in a little off topic,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: So forgive me.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: But like, it was great the way you did show
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: pieces of.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: Her history, for instance, that she had a gastric sleeve,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: so she was very overweight. Yes, and you didn't see
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: that until you actually flashed back to that time in
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: her life, right, So she had.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: This gastric sleep.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: That was after she had had the babies, the other
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: two babies, do we know?
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: You know, I that is a you know, in terms
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: of the timeline, it's all pretty close it actually, I
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: think might have been before she had her babies. I
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: think it was like post you know, like very early
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: early twenties. You know, it's in the same A lot happens,
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: you know, from the time she like graduates call high
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: school to you know, her mid twenties. Yeah, but she
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: had been quite overweight, definitely all through high school and childhood.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: Because I didn't see until you showed us that, I don't,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: you know, realize it. What about that did you think
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: was important to show?
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: You know? I think it speaks to a couple of things.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: One is that there is a kind of all prove
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: it to everyone that I think Taylor is spending some
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: of her like early adult years playing catch up. Like
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: I was never the pretty girl in high school. I
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: could never get the guys. I had to catfish them,
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: I had to pretend to be someone else. And now
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: I've lost this way and look, and I'm going to
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: prove to everyone that this is a skill and a
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: power that I have. And so I think it's about that.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: It's a deep insecurity, it's yeah, And it's also like
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: a desire for people to see the outside and not
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: the inside with her. Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: of people that were really close to her at times
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: in their life don't actually know who this person is.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: And that is not their fault. That's very much her fault.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Like I just there's a kind of inability to truly
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: let people in, in part because what's inside is pretty dark.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: I found it that interesting because I think she was
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: almost like morbidly obese, at least that's what it seemed
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: to me in a way. So you cut off and
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know where she got the money to get
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: a gastric sleeve. Who knows, maybe insurance, whatever.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure she went to I'm pretty sure she
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: went Overseas to do it. I think she went to
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: Mexico for it.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: So think about the wherewithal you have to have at
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: this point, you're you're she doesn't. I mean the mother
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: said she had, they had no money. It's not all
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: this that she made up was all bullshit, right, So,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: but as a young woman to have it together to
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: get yourself overseas and the drive or the maybe she's
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: driven by her misery and her insecurity. I don't know,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: but I don't know why. Just thought that aspect was
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: was interesting and how you know she transformed, Yeah, you
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: know afterwards, and you know, there was a lot of
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: talk about how pretty she was.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: She really was.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: She was, she was a very pretty girl, you know,
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: And and I don't know, I guess, I guess I'm
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: looking at her at the beginning, I'm thinking, like I know.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: This girl and I didn't and I don't.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: But the way that you represented or not represented her,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: but what you showed me at the beginning felt like
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: somebody that I absolutely could recognize, right, Like this young
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: girl very just the needy, wanting me to tension, wanting
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: specifically maybe she grew up very heavy, so she wanted
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: boys attention, love bombing to everyone that she love bombing, right, all.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Bring people's affection. I mean, this was something that didn't
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: make the cut, in part because it's not as important
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: as so many of the things that we do to
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: talk about, you know, But like former friends of hers
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: talking about, you know, always showing up with Starbucks every
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: time they went out to get the bill, you know,
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: just like you know, a way of kind of relying
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: again on things that are relatively superficial. I mean, they're
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: nice when they're done from a genuine place, but when
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: they're done because you fear that people don't like you
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: for who you really are, you know, and so there's
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: always stories about that, like you know, always kind and
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: it's part of the way that she inserts herself back
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: into Reagan's life. You know, she knows this woman is pregnant.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: She absolutely knows why she's going over there, but she
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: like brings her a gift card, she brings a little
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: present for the baby. It's like, you know, and and
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: that's nice when you think it's genuine, like of course,
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: so nice when you think that someone's like thought about
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: you a little bit extra that day or went out
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: of their way to do something for you. And so
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: she also really like praise on you know, she uses
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: the the kind of niceties of a small town community,
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: the kind of social norms of like you know, looking
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: out for one another in close and also really praying
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: on on the best parts of people, which is like,
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: you know, Reagan, her victim was one of the few
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: people still giving her the benefit of.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: The d I know that broke my heart when her
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: when when when Reagan's mom said something to the fact
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: like she had no one left right that believed in her,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: and that it was so typical Reagan to you know,
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: rally around someone.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, had no one.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: And in part because Reagan, you know, wasn't in her
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: inner circle. So it's certainly not like, oh, Reagan should
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: have known better. It's like this wasn't a person that
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: was particularly close to her, and she had a good heart,
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: you know, and we but she Yeah, we've definitely seen
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: in like a digital age, people can get bullied for nowhere.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: It's like her instincts were I don't know, why would
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: I have any reason to believe this.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: She's not my best friend, my wedding photographer, I mean,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: for alone, be nice to her.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: I thought that was also really fascinating, how like all
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, one day she's a recruiter and now
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: she's a wedding photographer.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't like what is happening.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: This person is she can transform herself and sell herself, right,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: like did she have experience really in photography before she
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: started taking and she was apparently good at it. And
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Reagan they had she was like they said, she was
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: like a bridesmaid. You know, she's like her very scenario
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: it's on. That part was just unbelievable.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Lots of jobs, lots of but always like you know,
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: we we have from the kind of coret evidence. We'd
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: have text message exchanges between Taylor and Angela, the kind
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: of mentor older woman who the chiropractor, the one where
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: she first comes to with her pregnancy, you know, and
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Taylor had been telling her that she had been telling
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Angela that, you know, she used to be a nurse
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: and she used to work in the medical field, and
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: like you'd watch these text messages. I think one day
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: at Taylor's work there had been an emergency. I don't
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: even know if that's true, if there had been an emergency,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: but it's like by Taylor's account, she sprang to action
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: and you know, it reminded her of her old days
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: in the medical field. Meanwhile, this woman is twenty six,
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Like what are we talking? When? When did you do
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: these things? But her ability to just kind of have
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: these things roll off the tongue. Also with Wade, you
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: know that she like convinces him that she knows a
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: lot about hogs, she knows a lot about, you know,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: raising cattle, all of these things like that. That's very questionable.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: I mean it's it's small town in Texas. Everyone's got
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: a little bit more familiarity with livestock than like here
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: in Brooklyn where I live. But like, you know, had
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: Taylor ever truly been hands on with hogs, I don't know.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: And she got away with it.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: I think about how she took her boss's title right
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: when she was at the recruiting She literally just said, Okay,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: now I'm the vice president of recruit whatever she called herself.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: Who it's yeah.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: And but the so I always feel we're saying fascinating
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: because the whole thing is so awful and so tragic.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: There is of course, that's what drives us, I guess
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: to a lot of this. Is it just I cannot
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: believe what she was able to get away with until
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: she wasn't right, you know.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: I think part of it is that, you know, and
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: this is when I put myself, I can't put myself
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: in the position of Reagan's family. But when I imagine
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: how random this was for them, how because this is
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: not what we think evil looks like. This is not
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: what we think danger like, This is not what we're
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: taught to avoid. That, this is not someone who was
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: stalking Reagan. I mean, you know, as you know from
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: being interested in subject matter like this, like being a
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: pregnant woman is a very vulnerable time in a woman's life.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: They are, you know, pregnant women get hurt, murdered, you know,
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: assaulted by their boyfriend's husbands, you know, their side like
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: all the time. But not by a girl that was
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: at your wedding, like you know, And so this just
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: isn't what we think danger looks like. And I think
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: that's part of what is so chilling, and it's it's
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: why there was nothing that Reagan or her family could
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: have done, Like there was no there was no warning,
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: there was no weird behavior. Taylor was actually crazy. But
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: like when it came to their interactions with her.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: I would have never suspected, of course.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: No, nothing. No, someone comes over and says, I'm pregnant too. Ps, yes,
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: we're both pregnant. Right, let's have a girl's day, right.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: I just want to mention to you that I loved
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: the cinematography of it all.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: There were moments that I thought we're so brilliant, specifically
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: some of the hogs.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: I've found the hogs so interesting because you know, of
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: course we have to as a storyteller, I have to
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: think about how can I bring people into like an
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: emotionally evil hot you know, yes, mistake need to be high.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: And so there is this thing when we would go
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: with my amazing cinematographer Jared Alterman and the second cinematographer
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: that came onto the project, Jeff Hutchins, when we would
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: go down to Texas and we first visited Wade at
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: his property, that the hogs that like, you know, they're
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: not these are not like farm piggies.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: No time about Wilbur.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: This is not this little piggy went to that like
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: these are they are you know, two hundred and fifty
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: pound roaches. Basically they are feral, they are aggressive, they're dirty,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: they shriek like the sound of murder. They provided, you know,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: to me this opportunity to be like things are happening watching.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: It was it just it was between the hogs and
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know if they were crows, but there were
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: seven shots of when there were it felt like there
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: were just millions of crows. Yes, it all was so creepy, right,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: and completely in line with what was happening you know
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: in the documentary like it was. It was all just
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: felt and that the way that you you sort of
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: juxtaposed the creepiness with the other piece of it, which
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: felt like, here's this young girl, she had friends, yeah,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: she you know, the whole thing was so weird and
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: mind blowing. I mean, how do you feel like, you know,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: you've now done it, You've made this film, you've wrapped it.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: What are you left with?
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: And that's not my last By the way, that sounds
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: like a last question. You're not getting away from that easily,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: But like, you do you think about this a lot now?
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: It was sure, yeah, yeah, for sure. To me, I
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: think that this is a film about red Flags. I
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: think that this is a film about you know, it's
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: not like when you get to the end of the
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: film or when you're getting to like the things that
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Taylor ultimately does where it's like ha ha ha it
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: her all along, it's like, yeah, we know, like everyone says,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: I never thought Taylor would do something like this. I
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: never thought she would kill someone. The second I heard
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: about what had happened over in New Boston to.
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: This time, I knew it was Taylor, right, you know.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: So it's like it's this thing where both rays are true,
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: and I'm interested in the idea that this is a
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: film about gut instincts. This is a film about red flags.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Everyone in her orbit felt things were off. You know.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Wade is kind of busy and distracted and overwhelmed and
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: like out of his depths. But his mom thinks something's weird,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: you know, and she plays people off of each other.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: The friends think something is weird, you know, Wade's friends,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: Cody and Steffanely. They It's like everyone has this kind
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: of gut feeling. So I think it's a film about that.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: I also think it's a film about, you know, how
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Reagan was was failed. You know, there were medical practitioners
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: who I am absolutely not blaming because they are following
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: the law, but they were really their hands were really
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: tied right.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: But there was the want I don't remember the name
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: of this medical practitioner. They went to her and asked
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: her about the hysterectomy, and she said there are hippolaws.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: But trust your she I mean, right, which to me,
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: that's that was a service that she did as so
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: much as she possibly could.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Right. But the idea that, like, you know, it could
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: be so blatantly obvious that someone within your community is
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: seemingly like up to no good. You don't know where
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: it's going. I mean, lots of people in the film
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: are saying, like what is she going to do? We
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: were all questioning what's she going to do? But the
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: idea that like someone in your community you can know
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: is up to kind of no good. The medical system
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: can know that something is not adding up, but they
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: can't actually do or say anything specific really feels like
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: in this case, it failed Reagan and her family. You know,
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: could there have been other ways to Warren? Could there
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: have been an intervention?
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: That's a big question. That's a big, a very big
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: interesting question. I mean, hippo laws are obviously set up.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: To protect, yes, right, and in this case.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: Yes they failed.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: It's so you know they do the opposite, right, because
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: you know, even I mean, all of this is you know,
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: it's just all of this is a big game of if.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: But like if a medical facility in this case, could
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: have said like, there is no First of all, you're
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: not coming here like you're you're posting things that say
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: that you're getting lab work and stuff done at our facility.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: You are not. You have not come here, We have
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: not said that you're you know, like, could that have
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: stopped it in its tracks? Again, no blame to these.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: Of course not, of course not.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: They're doing the right thing. They're following the law. But
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: the idea that like you know, they couldn't in this
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: case interven with the truth right to protect the confidentiality
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: of a liar.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Right Even at the end, though even with all of
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: her lies, I was still and again I didn't know
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: the story, but before I watched, I knew what was
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: going to happen.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I was still shocked.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: By the ending, by the fact that it just was
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: there was such a leap between this pathological sick woman,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: sick young woman and that kind of brutal violence, right,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: and the way you opened it up also with her
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: being pulled over, it was just, I mean, gripping unbelievable.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: I cannot believe that you had that footage to watch her.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: I know, right, what strikes me so much in that
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: footage is there's this moment when she's like in the
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: back of the cop car. When we cut to that
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: scene later, it's so clear that like all she cares
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: about is Wade. She's like, will you call my husband?
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: Her husband called? Right right?
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Hus been my husband and my husband. But there's this
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: moment where like a nurse were one of the e mts.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: It's like wiping the.
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: Blood of yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: That's that's Reagan's blood. And here this EMT is thinking
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: that she is like helping this portrait woman just ate
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: birth on the side of the road is unclear.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: It was so tender, right, No.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Tender of course, you know. And the idea that like
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: this this that Taylor could sit there and let someone
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: care for her in that way like receive.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, receive that kind of love when she had just
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: done this unspeakable.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Is a level of being off, evil, cruel.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Do you think that she's because I talked to you know,
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: I talked to directors and writer like, do you a
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: lot of I feel like that's a lot of them
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: are torn, right, Like you've been so immersed in this
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: story and you know Reagan and you know her beautiful family,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: and you are you know, I'm sure I would think
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: at this point you're close with them. How do you
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: look at Taylor now? I mean, do you believe that
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: she's evil?
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, I guess, you know, this is a big
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: philosophical I guess I wonder what evil means in some ways,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: because yes, there's part of me that's like, I'm not even.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: Sure what that means?
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: What is that? Is there such a thing? I mean,
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: she wasn't tried on a defense of insanity. They didn't
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: find anything, but like, clearly something's very wrong with her.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: She's she's cruel. She I do think she's evil. I'm
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: just not even sure. You know, on some level, I'm like,
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: what what does that mean? It's not a past to
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: see I ask you broken? You know, I'm grappling with
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: this all the time. I'm like, you know, it's certainly
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: not a past to say that something is broken in her?
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: Does she have a personality disorder? It was definitely premeditated.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: Showed up with a scalpel or whatever.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: She and she was thinking about what crime to commit
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: far before she decided that Reagan was going to be
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: her victim. She was kind of out there prowling for
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: like someone. She needed to find someone, and so, you know,
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: but there's a cruelty, there's like, you know, I'm I'm
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: a mom, I have an eight year old. The idea
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: that she did this to Reagan, to Regan's onborn child,
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: and Paul Reagan's daughter was at home, her three year
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: old daughter, and left her there. She left a three
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: year old in the house with her murdered mommy. How
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: can you describe it as anything but evil?
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: I grapple with that.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: We've we've done we've done interviews with directors who you know,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: directed a documentary about two fifteen year old who killed
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: their best friend, stabbed her death over one.
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: Okay, so and then but they were kids, right are
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: they kids? What is that sort of like or this
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: film in the crowd that I it's so whoa that one?
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: But it's not. But this one.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: I'm telling you, this one has taken a toll on me,
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: like it's It's one of those documentaries where I'm going
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: to be thinking about it and I think in large part,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: first of all, Reagan's beautiful mother and beautiful sister and
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: their her their beautiful family and very incredible and to.
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: Hear her mother's screams. Right, they had. It was so
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: heart wrenching and so.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: And they've had to be so strong, They've had to
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: endure so much. It is so unfair what was done
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: to themful change their lives forever.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, their mother said, half of me is gone and
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: I don't even know what happens still here. I mean,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: that's that would be what I would picture as well,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: right of course, So they'll stay with me for sure,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: as well as wade as.
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: But as this this horror show, right, this this.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Young woman who had two kids and was able to
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: commit this atrocity.
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: You know, do you does this stuff keep you up
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: sometimes at night?
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Is it?
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: Does it sit with you like it would be?
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: Does it?
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah? For sure? I mean I absolutely.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: I mean.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Because it's a real thing. This is a real thing.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah happened, you know, right, Reagan was a twenty one
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: year old mother. She was there. I always think there's
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: this moment when she's like getting her sonogram and she's
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: like kind of looking over her shoulder and she's this
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: like twenty one year old young mother and like the
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: contentment and glow on her face about the prospect of
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: having another is like.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: All over all she wanted to do was be a mother, right, yeah,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: that's what her mom she was seventeen, or a psychedister.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: He's a great mother, he's a great daughter. Like yeah,
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: think about I absolutely yeah, think about all of it.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: It's a lot because I always grapple with like this actually,
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: like you just said, this actually happened, and I still
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: with now I've seen the film, I still don't get it,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Like what the fuck? You know?
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: It is so crazy. And anyway, I cannot thank you
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: enough for coming.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: On so I talk to you and meet you.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: I think that this.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Documentary was and again I've seen a lot of them,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: now one of the most and I said this to
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: my producers gripping, you know, I think there was a
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: lot of reasons for that. I think the story in
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: and of itself is gripping, but also the way that
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: you told this story. I mentioned the cinematography, the way
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: that you showed us kind of as much as you could,
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: who she was, you know, before Gastric's sleeve, after what
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: kind of friends she was with the friends without the friends.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: It was just really fascinating. So congratulations to you
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Than so much