Latest / RESHAPED / Episode 9: Chelsea Hutchings | What Christians Need to Understand About Mental Health
Transcript
- Aaron: Hello everyone, welcome back to the Reshape Podcast. Super excited for the conversation that I get to share with you guys today with a good friend and sister in Christ, Chelsea Hutchings. So Chelsea is a Christian, became a Christian in our fellowship of churches, and she's a registered psychologist. And so she's practicing currently in the mental health space. and so of course at the start of this conversation we talk about her journey to Christ, her testimony. it's awesome to hear about you know. the the the journey that she wan went on to become a Christian. then of course a big chunk of the conversation we talk about mental health and Christianity and how s you know mental health and and psychology and faith intersect and how churches and christians in general can support people struggling with mental health how should we think about it with scripture the conversations that we have to have the things that we should be thinking about as Christians and I i it was very, very, very thought provoking. especially for me and I think hopefully for for everyone as well. and so we also talk a lot about exploring identity. we talk about grace and finding security in God's love and how that helps us with with our mental health and yeah, it it's really, really, really thought provoking and so hopefully you get something out of this conversation, something that you can reflect on and think about. because of course this is a very, very important area. to to consider and to think about, yeah, how do we how do we do our part as Christians and how do we operate faithfully and in and with wisdom. So anyway, hope you guys enjoy this conversation and get something out of it. So without further ado, here we go. Hello and welcome back to the Reshaped Podcast. This is the place where we are seeking Christian formation through thoughtful examination and conversation. Super duper excited today for the guests that we are going to have on and for the conversation we're gonna have. So, again, as always, a little intro, and then she will pop on. so firstly, she who we're talking to today, our guest, she is a Christian. She became a Christian in our family of churches, been a Christian since she was a teenager. And I've also known her for quite a while because she was actually in year eleven or eleventh grade in high school when Esther and I started leading our youth ministry, our teen ministry back in 2017. and so she's like a little sister to me. We've always been having good conversations ever since that time, and it we just always talk. since then, she has gone on to complete her master of clinical psychology and now works as a psychologist. in her work she supports both children and adults experiencing various mental health challenges, including anxiety, depression, trauma, neurodivergence. and she takes a holistic approach to psychology, drawing on drawing on evidence-based therapies to help people better understand themselves and navigate life's challenges. And so I'm super excited to have her on today and to hear her perspective on things, mental health wise as it as it blends with Christianity and faith. So please welcome to the Reshape podcast, my little sister and good friend Chelsea Hutchings Chelsea. How you doing, dude? There she is. There she Chelsea: Hello. Hi. Aaron: is. How are you? Chelsea: good, I'm feeling good. I love to be introduced. I did, I did. Aaron: my gosh, did you like the introduction? It's pretty good. I know. No, it's good. I gotta give people background, man. I gotta let people know who you are, And and so nah, Chelsea: You too. You too. I appreciate it. Aaron: nah, it's it's good, man. I really appreciate you making time. You are a practicing psychologist. We're just talking offline. Four days a week. You are working then today Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Yes. Aaron: was your day off, so I got you on a good day. That's to be honest, that's probably good, right? That we got you today. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That'd be it would be so draining. I know I Chelsea: Let's go. Yeah, exactly. I'm not, not drained, not tired, depleted. Mm-hmm. Literally. Aaron: yeah. I mean Talking to people back to back to back generally, just even just about stuff you like is tiring, let alone talking about people's Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: stuff and trying to help them through things would be so tiring, dude. So but I got you on a good day. You went you said you went to the gym, you were able to get some stuff done. So you're Chelsea: did. Let's go. Aaron: you're you're revved and ready to go. Thinking about this recording all day, I'm sure, right? Yeah. Chelsea: I'm revved. Of course, I was buzzing. was buzzing, waiting for it all day. Aaron: Nah, dude. Well, I honestly Charles, I really appreciate you getting on the pod, man. what I've been doing, I you've probably heard this in a couple of the other episodes, but I've been reminiscing with people, like kind of the first time we kind of, you know, got Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: to know each other and kind of made contact and our friendship, you know. So do have any anything there? Do you remember? Like I I the first impressions, if if they were good, don't say if they were bad. 'cause you were was am I correct? Twenty Chelsea: First impressions. Aaron: seventeen, you were in your eleven, is that correct? When Esther and I started leading the youth min teens ministry? Chelsea: So 2017, was 2017 when you started leading? Aaron: yeah, January of twenty seventeen Esther started Esther and I started Chelsea: Okay, Aaron: leading the teens ministry. Yeah. Chelsea: true. Yeah, that was the year I graduated. So I was in year 12. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we Aaron: Okay. Okay. Year twelve. Okay, cool. So that wow, so any we are only there for a year. Okay. Chelsea: just were transitioning. I was just transitioning out. Yeah. Yeah, so Aaron: Yeah, into the yeah, into the union ministry. Okay. Chelsea: we had like, you were always in my sphere, but not quite. in my sphere. So in teens, Aaron: True. 'Cause we've grown up, yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: yeah, we would, you, we weren't quite in teens together, but then even when you came back to be a teen later, we were, but only for a short amount of time. And then you came to do campus for a second and then that was just like a blip. then, Aaron: yeah. Yeah, literally. Chelsea: so yeah, my impression of you was distant for a long time. And one of Aaron: That's fine. That's good. That's probably good. Chelsea: intimidation. Not intimidation as in like you are an you know invasive intimidating person but just like Aaron Arsila has you know a reputation. Aaron: Intimidate okay, okay. Sure. Sure. No, I I get that. I get that. I know what you mean. I know what you mean. There are some people that when you don't know them, it's kind of from a distance seems Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: like, I don't know. I don't really want to approach them. So I'm sorry about that. I'm sorry if you you felt that way. Chelsea: No, no, was not you. It was just like, my gosh, Aaron is so cool. I can't, I'm not Aaron: no. Chelsea: in his... Obviously when I got older, I realized that, yeah, that, yeah, yeah. But when you're like 13, you're my gosh, who is this guy? Yeah. Aaron: Okay, then I wasn't cool at all. Good, good. You realize No, that's so funny. That's true. That's true. no, well, that's so yeah, it's it's crazy. I think one of the cool things is obviously being a part of, you know, seeing people from when they were young. 'Cause how old were you when you became a Christian? Chelsea: 14. Aaron: Fourteen. And not that you have to give away your age, but you're older than that now. in working. Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Yep, yep. Aaron: But yeah, I think it's been so cool seeing people just grow up and mature, obviously. yeah, just Chelsea: Hmm. Aaron: mature and and spiritually mature and grow up and to be able to have these conversations. You were always for me, you were always a curious person. you were always asking questions. I remember having Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: good chats and so I appreciated that. And and I think you always thought through things, which is which is really cool. So yeah. Anyway, so anyway, that's that's cool. I think it's it's awesome that we can now have a chat. Now you're a psychologist, which is really, really cool. How long have you been practicing for now again? Chelsea: Yeah, well, it depends if we're talking like paid or unpaid. Aaron: when when do you guys count it from? Chelsea: I've been working in psychology since about 2023, but I was registered officially in Aaron: Cool. Chelsea: 2025. Aaron: Okay, so registered okay, yeah, awesome. So Chelsea: Ahem. Aaron: I guess by yourself, you've been practicing since that then, is that is that correct? Yep, twenty twenty five. All right, cool, man. Alright, well I'm so keen. I'm so keen to to chat more about that. Anyway, as always, Chelsea: Yeah, Aaron: I'm starting off with because I think it's really helpful for people's understanding Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: understanding people's context and where they came from and and you know, what led them to Jesus and all those kinds of things before we get into talking about the other stuff. So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, and about your journey to Christ and I'll ask some questions. Chelsea: Well, my journey starts fairly simply, I guess. My parents met each other in the church is really where I start. So my parents got reached out to when they were in campus ministry and I can't remember. or what ages they got married, but got married. Aaron: All right. Yeah. Got married. Yeah. Chelsea: I've been in this church, I think my mum was in the church the year that it formed, I wanna say, in Melbourne. So yeah, been around for a long time, yeah. Aaron: wow. Eighties. Yeah, wow. Amen. Chelsea: So I've just always sort of been in and around church. I think in terms of like when, your faith starts to become your own. I guess when you're a teenager, when you're an adolescent, you start to have your own opinions about things and Aaron: Mm-hmm. Chelsea: wanting to carve your own path in life. And there's also peer pressure that comes with like Aaron: Yes. Chelsea: building your identity. So I remember Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: there was an age, I don't know if it felt the same for you, but there was an age where it was like, this is when you study the Bible and this is when you get baptized. Aaron: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What did you what would you say? I would say it's around that t thirteen mark. That thirteen fo yeah. Thirteen fourteen mark. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Chelsea: Yeah, it was year eight. If, yeah, yeah, yeah. If beyond 14, you weren't baptized, it was like, what? Which is not the way anymore, which is good. Aaron: Yeah. What's wrong with you? No. No, that's not the argument. Chelsea: But yeah, so around 14 was when everyone was sort of studying the Bible. You could feel that pressure. People would come back from a teen camp and start studying the Bible. And I was like, I remember there were a few girls in my age group that came up to me. for one teen Devo and they were like, we're gonna go ask like so and so teen leader to study the Bible. Do you wanna come with us? And I was like, Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: I don't know. Like I don't feel Aaron: just Chelsea: like that doesn't feel like the way I want to ask. I don't know. I think I'd said no Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: at the time. So I felt the pressure, I really understood how serious it was. And so I was Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: trying not to give in to the peer pressure. But it did end up happening around that age. Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: I remember there was a lesson that one of the team leaders did about integrity. And I can't remember all the details about it, but I think I was the thing I was moved by was we had like a discussion group after the lesson and there was just Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: something so beautiful about like being able to have this like depths of conversation around Jesus and spirituality. And I Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: felt like so close to these people that were like much older than me of like various different ages. And I was I don't know, just like struck. Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: by the community and like the depth of conversation and the vulnerability Aaron: Mm-hmm. Chelsea: and the honesty that came, you know, from a lesson like that. So Aaron: Yeah, awesome. Chelsea: I think after that was when I had asked to study the Bible. I can't remember exactly like what I expected, what I thought was gonna happen. I think most... People that grow up in church just expect that studying the Bible is just a thing you have to do. It's a stepping stone to baptism. But I think Aaron: Mm-hmm. Chelsea: I was struck by just how much I didn't know. The person studying the Bible with me would ask me questions and I was like, I didn't have an answer for her. Which Aaron: Uh-huh. Chelsea: was the point, she wasn't trying to test me. She wasn't trying to be like, do you know this answer? If you do or don't, you can and can't get baptized. Aaron: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: But I was just like, my God. I've been in church my whole life. I should know the answers to these questions. Aaron: So yeah, you felt a bit pressured on some of the studies and stuff, just to get the right the right answer. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hmm. Chelsea: Yeah, but like totally internal and then But I think that was good for me. It was good for me to be like just because I've grown up Christian doesn't mean I know I have this like easy access to God and to Jesus like I still I need Aaron: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, good point. Chelsea: to work for it myself Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: and read it for myself, so Obviously the cross when I studied the cross was when I was like I think I just remember blazing ahead from there. It was just me one-on-one with the person I was doing Bible studies with. Aaron: Mm-hmm. Chelsea: I just remember hearing about the cross and then afterwards I was like, okay, that's it. Whatever Jesus Aaron: Well. Chelsea: wants me to do. I'll do it. how else am I supposed to respond to hearing a message like that that someone has? Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: And, you know, the way it was taught to me was like seeing myself in all the different figures in, you know, the story of the cross. Aaron: Yeah, the characters. Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: Yeah, yeah. So was like, OK. Aaron: Was there one sorry to cut you, but was there one character in particular that you really identified with or were really impacted by in the gospel accounts? Chelsea: Cool. Probably in the crucifixion, probably Barabbas, I think, was the one that Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: I was like, ooh, that's crazy. Like, yeah. Mm. Aaron: It's it's crazy, isn't it? Yeah. The way it's designed the narrative is amazing. Just the way it's like as you read it and then you just go, Huh, this guy's literally getting off free because of Jesus being substituted in his Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: place and you go, and then when it drops, like, wait, that's me Yeah, that that impacted Chelsea: Literally, Aaron: me too. Yeah. Chelsea: yeah. And even, again, like growing up Christian, you kind of, feel like you're a pretty good person Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: generally. So for somebody to even like point out that connection, to be like, you're Barabbas. I'm like, me? Barabbas, criminal. What are you talking about? But yeah, I think I Aaron: Mm. Yeah. Chelsea: was really struck by that and then was watching Passion of the Christ and was just like flooded with Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: the cross. And yeah, from then I think I was just like, whatever Jesus wants from me. if he wants me to get baptized and to give my life for him, I'll do it. What else? What Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: else does he want me, what else can I do in response Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: to such an incredible, such incredible love, sacrifice? Aaron: Amen. Chelsea: So yeah, got baptized at 14 in Aaron: Awesome. Chelsea: 20... 13, I'll say that. I don't mind putting that out there. Aaron: Come on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Chelsea: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, so obviously for a lot of Kingdom kids, Kingdom kid, obviously meaning people that grew up in church, Aaron: yes, yep. Chelsea: the story doesn't end there. You know, from 14 onwards, a lot of life happens. Yeah, it Aaron: Mm. Begins, yeah, and happens, yeah that's right. Chelsea: begins. But I think I've been really lucky to grow up with... just a really incredible community of people. Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: I've had such beautiful people around me, whether it was leaders, whether it was peers, brothers, sisters, like I've been so lucky. And then that expanded when I went to campus and when I was studying, like even through all the sort of turmoil that's happened since 14, I've Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: always had such rich. relationships around me which is and then yeah Aaron: Awesome. Chelsea: been able to help lead different ministries you know campus pros pre-teens Aaron: Yep. yes, shout out Chelsea, the goat. The goat of preteens ministry. You are honestly you were awesome. You were yes. Anyway, I could talk about that for Chelsea: Appreciate that. Aaron: f I could talk about that for for days. But yes, you did it. You've served a lot, absolutely. Shout out the preteens. Yeah, man. Yeah. That's it, man. That's cool. Chelsea: appreciate that. Shout out preteens. I was really loved when I was in preteen, so I just, you you've got to pay it forward. I appreciate it. Yeah. And then reshaped from there, I could go on and on. Beliefs and biases have changed since then, but we will, we'll dip. Yeah, but that's the gist. Aaron: that's great. Mm. I'm sure we'll talk about some of that. Yes. Yes. No, that's great. No, that's really helpful. That's awesome, man. That's such a yeah. and I think I wanna 'cause I was I'm similar, you know, story I've shared about it on on think episode zero and I think Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: there is a little bit of a I don't know if you agree with this, but there's a bit of a stigma sometimes for kingdom kids where we feel like, well, my testimony about coming to Jesus is not as good as the guy who Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: was a drug dealer and who was doing drugs and getting drunk every night as a teenager and then found Jesus, you know? And I Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Aaron: I and and I think I th you know, I understand that and I think there's there's some kind of reality to that too, 'cause you haven't ex we haven't experienced life. But I think it's amazing. Any soul coming to Christ Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: is is is something to be celebrated, right? The angels rejoice. every time someone comes home Chelsea: Yeah, yeah. Aaron: and realizes that. So that's such a cool story. Chelsea: Yeah, yeah and even being able to talk to people on the opposite end of that who have said, Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: no, like I think it's really beautiful, like just to see like your life is Aaron: Yeah, that's true, I've heard that. Chelsea: a testament to how much God has just protected Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: and kept you safe and secure, like how incredible is that? And I'm like good point. Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. I I always say that I think in his sovereignty, God Acts seventeen, God puts the people in the right places. He sets up the appointed boundaries and lands for people so they can seek him and find him. Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: I always think if I was if I didn't grow up in a Christian family around a Christian community, I don't know. I mean God could do whatever he wanted and but I don't know if I would have been as responsive. Like if someone came up to me Chelsea: I feel the same. Yeah. Aaron: and talked to me about Jesus or if I had a friend, I would be wanting to argue to the till the cows come home, and I wouldn't listen. And so I think God just puts all of Chelsea: Totally. Yeah, yeah. I hear that. Aaron: us probably knew that about you and I put us in the right families and the right churches, to lead Chelsea: Literally, yeah. Aaron: us to him. I actually have a question for you. This is this Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: is just something I was thinking about 'cause I've been thinking about this a little bit. With with the cross, right? And of course it's the beauty of Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Aaron: it's Christianity. What are your thoughts on I've heard people say things like 'cause obviously I've got my two daughters now. Obviously you Elizabeth, she's five about to turn Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: six, and then you have Alethea. she's three. And y Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: trying to explain Jesus dying on the cross for our sins without Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Aaron: obviously there's guilt there, and this is why I want to get your thoughts here. There's guilt there, right? That and my daughter Elizabeth, she she feels a lot, and and she hasn't not not necessarily Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: that too yet too much with all of this, but we talk about it, you know. She'll ask me why did Jesus Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: have to die and all those kinds of things and I wanna be careful, but I don't wanna not tell her the truth. So from like a psychologist Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Aaron: perspective and like guilt and shame and those kinds of things, how do you I understand it'll be different with like Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: a six year old, five year old versus a fourteen or fifteen year old. But maybe what are your thoughts on Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: like that, how to communicate that and things to look out for? If you have any thoughts on that, all good if you don't, but yeah. Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I do have thoughts. Are they solicited? I don't know. I'm not a parent. So, you know, I can only Aaron: So good. Chelsea: say so much, but I do feel like I question. And maybe this is controversial, but I question like how much a child needs to understand about the sort of death. on the Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: cross like a child can only comprehend death so much let Aaron: for sure. Yeah. Chelsea: alone that he died because I'm bad, that's so abstract for a child. it's so Aaron: for sure. Yeah. Chelsea: abstract for them to be like, so this person thousands and thousands of years ago Aaron: Mm-hmm. Chelsea: died because I did something bad yesterday. Like it just, Aaron: Mm, mm. Chelsea: so it's not like I don't think that children should understand that. think that obviously they're gonna, if they grew up in church, they're gonna hear that lesson. Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: I guess to me, what's more important is just prioritizing like the... shepherd that Jesus was, like just the Aaron: Mm. Mm-hmm. Chelsea: nurturance and the safety and the security that he provided Aaron: That's good. Chelsea: over, rather than like, the reason that we love Jesus is because he died for us. No, the reason we love Jesus is because he loves us. Like he Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: is like, he is picking, he's picking these kids up. He's playing with them. Like Jesus loved children. He was so childlike. And I think that that is something that Aaron: Yeah, that's good. Yeah. That's what I've been trying to I think Chelsea: kids are gonna understand better. Yeah. Aaron: Esther and I trying to just make sure we're like it's yeah, Jesus loves us so much that he wants to he would do anything for us, and and trying to emphasize that element and 'cause Chelsea: Mmm. Totally. Aaron: I even think, man, the cross is so complicated, even I mean it's a beautiful it's a beautiful thing, the gospel. But even trying to study it out Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: with study with a twelve, thirteen year old and how much they need to know, Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: how much o you know, 'cause you do need to un I believe you need to understand the cross, absolutely. Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: But I think, yeah, what we emphasise and the beauty of the cross is is that it's so vast. There's the death and there's the resurrection, there's the love and Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: everything's encapsulated in that. So I think it's just making sure we we're ba I I guess balanced in some senses of what we're prioritizing, what we're focusing Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: on and talking about. So no, that's good. I like that. I like that. Don't even if you have any more thoughts on that. Chelsea: Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. No, I was just going to say that's a good point about like, just helping children to know that he loves you more than anything, that he would do anything Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: for you, because that is something that children can comprehend. I remember my Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: parents tell this story about how I can't remember what age I would have been. But they I understood how loved I was by my parents, right? My parents are great. Shout out to Ben and Braun. Aaron: Shout out A Benbrun the goats. Chelsea: The goats. I Aaron: Yes, absolutely. Chelsea: knew that I was incredibly loved, but my parents from a young age taught me that Jesus loved me more than they did. Aaron: Even more. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Chelsea: And it blew my mind. I was like a child and Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: I was like, what? Jesus loves me more than you? Like, wow, Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: that's crazy. And for a child to know they are loved and then know they're even more loved, like that's incredible. Yeah. Aaron: There's someone more. Yeah. Yeah, it's really good. Yeah, that's awesome. No, that's some great thoughts. That's some great thoughts. I'm sure we could talk about that for for a while too. But that's that's that's that's really good Chelsea: We could. Aaron: to think about. all right, so you are now a psychologist. We've talked about that. So can you tell us what kind of led you towards becoming a psychologist and Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: yeah, was it a hard decision for you? Did you know straight out of high school it's what you wanted to do? And yeah, talk a bit about that Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: before we get into the some of the nitty gritty. Chelsea: Yeah, so yes, I did. I did know that I wanted to do something in, you know, whether it was counselling, social work, helping people. I studied psychology from like year 10 onwards, I think. I don't know. It's I think there's lots of different reasons why I wanted to become a psychologist. Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: First of all, I'm I'm an oldest daughter. So it just sort of shout out the eldest daughters, seriously, the superheroes of the world. Aaron: Shout out the oldest. Yes. It's true. It's true. Chelsea: Yeah, so I've always been, I've always had a caregiving role, I guess, in, you know, people's lives, whether it was my family, whether it was people around me, I was always for some reason, like the oldest in the people around me as well. Yeah, yeah, so I just. Aaron: Hmm. That's true actually. Yeah. Even in teens, I think about that. And even youth ministry, you were the oldest. yeah. Chelsea: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I just naturally took on that role with people. Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: I've always been quite sensitive to other people's emotions as well. I don't know if that's nature, nurture, but my parents will... talk about how I literally came out of the womb and had my eyes open and was just looking around. Like I wasn't crying, Aaron: Wow. Chelsea: I was just like taking everything in, taking in the environment. So I've just, Aaron: There you go. Yeah. Chelsea: don't know, I've always been like, what's going on? Like, yeah, where, Aaron: Curious, yeah. Hmm. Chelsea: who's that person? You know, which means that I can be quite, you know, observant of when people are not well, when they're Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: off, you know, that kind of thing. Aaron: You have a little a little gauge, kinda just got a good feeling. Yeah. Chelsea: Exactly, exactly. And I think I had my own anxieties growing up, which I've now sort of clocked as anxiety. At the time I was like, I just Aaron: Hmm. Chelsea: worried a lot or I was overly, I was just a thinker, but I think I had a lot of anxiety as a child. And I, I'm just shouting at my parents multiple times, but I had Aaron: No, absolutely. Chelsea: an incredibly, emotionally intelligent dad that was able to pick up on when I was off, when... Aaron: Hm. Chelsea: Yeah, when I was like bottling things up when my anxiety Aaron: Emotions up here. Chelsea: needed to be vented. So he would always just periodically sort of check in with me to be like, what's going on? Like, are you OK? Do we need to talk about anything? Shout out Molly is doing something in the kitchen right now. If you can hear any of that. Aaron: She's good, she's good. Chelsea: So, yeah, and I just I recognize the power of just like having someone to talk to, just having someone Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: see that you're not well and be like, what's going on? Like reaching out. Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: Are you okay? Just having that outlet. Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: And I think. I recognized that not everybody had that. I was very lucky to have that in my family that I felt, you know, sort of free to share and to open up and to talk to someone. So I think Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: I wanted, again, to like pass that forward to other people and be like an outlet for them of sounding bored. And Aaron: Yeah. Wow. Chelsea: so, yeah, it almost became like, just like, I like to do that in my life anyway. I really like to listen to people's... concerns, their anxieties, to guide them. So was like, and I can get paid for that. That's amazing. Aaron: Yeah, there you go. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you knew that straight from like did Chelsea: Yeah, yeah. Aaron: you knew that from like year ten? Year eleven? Chelsea: It took me a second to like know fully. I went out of high school and I did a semester of youth work because I thought I was more passionate about the like teenage young people aspect of, which I still am. but it wasn't so much mental health focused, it was more social work Aaron: All right. Yeah. Chelsea: I think I went to a, it's not an excursion when you're in uni, I don't know what it's called, but we went to like a community center and Aaron: yeah, I know I know what you mean. You went somewhere, yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: they were like, when one of our kids is struggling, they go and we refer them to a psychologist. And I was like, I want. do that please I want to be Aaron: Hmm, right, okay. Chelsea: the person that they're referred to I don't want to like yeah yeah Aaron: so that was the moment that you kinda knew? Let me do that. Okay. Chelsea: let me do that and then I switched after six months and then six years later yeah Aaron: And here we are. Wow. Yeah, because you have to do is it three years of an undergraduate, then two years of masters, is that correct? Two one year under Yes. Jeez, that's a long journey. That's a long journey. That's Chelsea: Three years undergrad, one year honors, two years masters. Yeah, I know. Aaron: amazing. So you're doing now so what is the area you specialize in, in regards to mental health now with the work that you're doing? Chelsea: Hmm, I wouldn't say Because I'm early career I wouldn't say that I specialize yet I Aaron: Okay. Yeah. Chelsea: would say I'm my interests are neurodivergence and Trauma Aaron: Mm-hmm. Chelsea: Trauma is like because I'm my approach to therapy and it's obviously different for different people But I like to be somewhat transdiagnostic. So what that means is rather than sort of honing in on a diagnosis and a label, I'm more interested in, you know, someone's life, their history and trauma work is a little Aaron: Right. Chelsea: bit more about like... what is, what's the adverse, what life events has this person been through to lead them to this point, which you could Aaron: to get them to this point. Chelsea: label with a diagnosis and it's fair and valid and quite validating for many people. But yeah, my approach is a little bit more. Yeah, transdiagnostic, like I said. Yeah. Aaron: Okay. Yeah, cool. So did you did you get straight into doing that or is it clients just depends on the who the the the the place that you work, the practice that you work for, they just the clients that you get, then you just have to work through that with each individual client. Chelsea: Yeah, think it's more been, I mean, you see a wide variety of clients and you just kind of over time figure out what you enjoy, what works for Aaron: Right. Chelsea: you. I thought that I really wanted to work with kids and teenagers and I still do enjoy that work, but I actually really enjoy working with adults because the trauma Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: work is a little bit deeper Aaron: Mm-hmm. Chelsea: with adults. So yeah, Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: I don't know. It's just something that you sort of figure out Aaron: depends, yeah. Chelsea: as you go. Aaron: And what have you learnt I don't know, it's pretty hard to you can talk about several things that you feel like you've just taken away since you've started working and since you've studied it studied it all and practicing, Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: but what are some of the things you know, there's maybe someone listening that is thinking maybe they have they need to talk to someone about their mental health or and this is go from your the professional side and we'll talk about the faith side in a bit in a little bit here too. But Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: yeah, what are some things that you've learned or what's what's been some really great things that you've taken away from working so deeply in in as a psychologist? Chelsea: as in things that I've taken away just for my own. Aaron: Yeah, just I think sma yeah, for yourself and then maybe something yeah, and then if that can that can help someone else. Something that either about looking after yourself or just some things that maybe Chelsea: Right. Yeah. Aaron: people don't think about that they shouldn't ignore. I don't know, something like that. Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. I think... I think what comes to mind is whenever, if there's any habit, pattern, behavior, thought process that you feel you've been stuck in for a really long time, probably some sort of professional can help Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: with that. I think we just think that we should tough something out, even though usually what you've been doing is been toughing it out for a really long time. And usually when something is stuck, it's an indicator that it's not just present, it's, you know, historical, Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: whether it comes from family of origin, whether it comes from trauma, whether it comes from just different like adverse experiences that you've been through. So yeah, which I know when I say that, pretty much everybody is gonna be like, okay, well, I have something that I'm stuck Aaron: Hmm. Chelsea: on. I have a pattern that I'm, you know, and I would say, well, yeah, I think probably most people would benefit from mental health support, whether Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: it's a psychologist, whether it's a Christian counselor, even just your GP, like, I don't know, whoever, Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: you need to talk to, but yeah, I think particularly for like, issues that you keep banging your head against a wall with. Yeah. Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Do you think 'cause I d how do you feel about the stigma around mental health now? like do you think there's Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: still I mean we're obviously for our c for those listening, our context is Melbourne, Australia, twenty twenty six. I just I'll share something quickly. I remember when I was in high school, sorry, in primary school, like grade five, grade six. and so I would have Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: been, you know, kind of eleven, ten, eleven years old back in two thousand and five, something like that. It was Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: and it was like you don't things have have changed a lot since then. I just rem there was a girl, obviously Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: I'm not gonna say her name, that was doing some things and it was now looking back, it's definitely it was mental health stuff for sure. But I think no Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: one I think even the teachers, people in class, people in Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: school, even myself was like, What are we what is what is this? It's a bit strange. It was there was this kind of Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: yeah, d don't talk about it. Even make make fun of it and I'm to my shame I definitely would I joined Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: in on that stuff because we just didn't know what it was. But now I think there's correct me Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: if I'm wrong, but it seems like there's more language. We've obviously progressed more. what do Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: you yeah, what do you think about the state of mental health now in at least in Australia? Chelsea: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a good question. It's an interesting question too, because I feel like my view of it is probably a bit skewed just because I work in... Aaron: You're in it. Yeah. Chelsea: Yeah, so there's not a whole lot of stigma, but then obviously I'm hearing a lot from my clients about the stigma that they experience, Aaron: Yeah. Sure. Chelsea: within their families or workplaces or Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: things like that. But definitely in Melbourne, I think we're very privileged to, there's a lot of awareness about mental health issues. think obviously people from other cultures, there's more likely to be a lot of shame. Aaron: Yes. Yeah. Chelsea: And even Aussie culture to be honest is like, it's very like, she'll be right, you're fine. Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: Yeah, which doesn't, it usually is not to say that the mental health issue isn't there. It's just to be like, yeah, but you're fine. Like you have depression, but like you're good. Aaron: harden up. Yeah, yeah, you you'll be good. You'll be good. Yeah, slow down, yeah. Chelsea: Yeah. So, yeah, very nonchalant, a culture that's like a quite uncomfortable with vulnerability, I think is Aussies. Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: so yeah, definitely, definitely lots of progress, but also Aaron: good. Chelsea: ways to go. Aaron: Yeah. Do you how do you think we it continue to improve that from your opinion? just like what what's something like so personally for me, I, you know, I don't I I haven't for myself personally I haven't had like some really serious mental health struggle. I think I've had some anxiety at at times, but like I'm not gonna say like I yeah, I don't I don't think so. so Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: as someone who I know a lot of people around me very close to me that that Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: do, you know, they see therapists, they all those kinds of things, which is great. So what is something that like Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: yeah, so for me I can kind of just be like, yeah, yeah, that's great. They just keep doing that. You're doing your thing, like it's all good. But how how what's Chelsea: Totally. Aaron: something that like I can do or even just in general, we as in general, like normal people, not normal people, but everyone can do. Like just to help push Chelsea: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Aaron: it push it the right direction, whether you struggle with it or not. Chelsea: Yeah, yeah, I like that question. The first word that came to mind for me was just curiosity. Like I think just, I Aaron: Hm. Chelsea: think people either get a little bit too... involved in other people's lives and get too nosy and ask too many questions or because mental health is so you know it's like i've never gone through that i don't know how to handle that people almost just like don't want to ask questions Aaron: Yeah. Cli yeah. Chelsea: but just ask like if and even if you have to preempt it with like i'm sorry if this is rude but like i just sort of want to understand a little bit like where you're coming from and what life looks Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: like for you and because i think that's really what the hard thing about mental health. issues are for a lot of people is that they're so isolating or a person feels like nobody understands me Aaron: Okay. Chelsea: and nobody wants to see this side of me nobody wants to see this side that feels that can't get out of bed in the morning that is not motivated enough to look after myself you know but I think just for there's such power in community and there's such power in just being able to share that with someone someone being able to Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: see that part of you and accept and go Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: that's sounds really hard I'm really sorry and yeah refer them to the proper people if they're not already seeing their psych or it's not your job to fix things for them it's just you know Aaron: Hmm. Chelsea: for them to have someone that sees them Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: and it doesn't change anything about your relationship. Aaron: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I think you gotta yes, I think there's like a balance, right? 'Cause you kind of want to be at that 'cause I guess you would have to have a relationship at a level where you can kind Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: of know where they're at. Like you kind of pick up if something's Chelsea: Totally. Aaron: off or if something's yeah. 'cause you know, you don't wanna just I guess look at s I guess I don't know. You could look at someone and go, I think something's going on there and but I think coming from Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: someone who cares and someone they they'd receive that better, I guess, right? Yeah. Chelsea: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But even not. Like, I think there can be an assumption that there will be someone who cares and will say something, but maybe not. So even if you're not someone that, yeah, Aaron: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, so you should you should just do it. That's a good point. Yeah. Chelsea: that fully knows, again, if there's discomfort, you can always just pull it back and be like, all right, Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: I overstepped. But... Yeah, curiosity. feel Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: like anybody responds well to just another human being being like, can you like help me? What's that like for you? Like, I want Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: to understand that better. I want to understand you better. Aaron: Hmm. What would your advice be, Chelsea on people who they might have heard, hey, you should probably go see someone, like a professional, multiple times and they just it's pretty obvious maybe they just don't Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: see it or they do acknowledge it but they don't want to get the help. yeah, what's your advice on that? 'Cause I Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: I've heard different views, you should really just really depending on who you are, like in your relationship with them, like push them harder. some say Chelsea: Hmm. Aaron: just Just offer it and then just say, Okay, well you can't you have to help yourself. What would your thoughts be on that? And I know that's a nuanced question, but yeah. Chelsea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even in a therapy sense, like, there are plenty of clients that come in. and they're not ready for therapy. they're not ready Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: for change, but they just come because they felt like it was something that they should do. But as we get to talking, it's like, okay. Like these are the things that I'm offering you and it doesn't really sound like you want to pick them up right now. Aaron: Right. Chelsea: So in the same way, like you can offer to someone, I think this would be really good for you. I think you should go see someone. then it really is up to them in terms of what they want to do with that information. Yeah, I think if they're... there's also a thing about you know how much do you push and if you push too much then they're gonna feel alienated and Aaron: Yeah. No never won it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: then they don't want to go and it's tricky it's really hard to be in relationship with people that need help but don't want to get help so they're kind of relying on you or people around them to give them the help, you're not qualified to do that. So I think in that case, you just have to like make boundaries really clear in relationships to be like, I hear you and Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: I'm so sorry that you're going through that, but I actually don't know. how to help you. I actually don't know how to help guide you in that. I'm Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: not... that's not my background. I'm here for you and I'm praying for you and let's keep meeting together and just encouraging each other. But yeah, that's actually not something that feels like out of my scope. Yeah, it's hard. Aaron: Right. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, and I guess that also changes depending on how old they are, you know, what what stage of life they're in. You know, it's Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: very different for a maybe a young teenager versus a forty five year old person like, you know, parent or something like that. So, Chelsea: Yeah. Yeah. Aaron: yeah, I guess we need a lot of wisdom and but I think a big thing I'm taking away and I did a Esther and I did like a mental health first aid course last Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: year. With Salvation Army it last year. Twenty twenty four, I think, with Salvation Army. And that was really cool. And I think one of the big things I learned from that was just relationship's so important. Like your relationship with the person is is so key. 'cause you're not necessarily Chelsea: Totally. Totally. Aaron: gonna always talk about stuff, but they know that they trust you or they know that you're there and that you care. I think that's the most Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Aaron: the most important thing. and they'll talk when they're ready. and I think I took that Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Aaron: was a big thing I took away from that. So Chelsea: Yeah, even in a therapeutic sense, what is like drilled into my head over and over by lecturers and supervisors is that the most important ingredient in therapy is your relationship with the client. Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: You could do a bunch of different evidence-based therapies. and they'll all have the same effectiveness, but what's really gonna change is your relationship to them. So same applies with general relationships. Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's good. That's good. Yeah. that's helpful. So I guess let I'd love to get your thoughts on a big one, which is I don't know if this is controversial. Maybe it Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: is a little bit, but Christianity and our faith and mental health, right? Like the blending the blending of that. Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Aaron: yeah, so I d I don't know really where to start with that, but what are your thoughts of how Chelsea: I know. Aaron: our the relationship between our faith as Christians and our mental Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: health, how do we walk that out? where can faith, prayer, community help out? I'm just gonna throw some things out here. Thoughts on Christian psychologists versus secular psychologists. I don't know if that's something you could talk about. but yeah, Chelsea: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Aaron: w is it is it a mixture of both? Should we you 'cause there's a spectrum of views on how much you need it, how much you don't, all those kinds of things. So Chelsea: Yeah. Yeah. Aaron: s feel free to go wherever you want with that and I'll maybe tell some questions. Yeah. There's a lot there, sorry. Sorry, I just dropped a I just dropped a bolt Yeah. Chelsea: so many, so many places. No, I like it. I think I want to, I can circle back to the like secular versus Christian psychologist because I feel like that is that's Aaron: Please. Yeah, I've had thoughts on that. Yeah, yeah. Chelsea: a good one to circle back to. But I think when I when I think about the overlap of. Christianity and mental health. And obviously there's heaps of overlap because spiritual and mental and emotional Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: health are all in this crock pot and physical health. Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: I think for me studying what human beings need to be well and to feel safe is... or everything that God provides. that has helped me to understand where my faith comes into mental health. So for example, attachment theory is like the number one thing that comes up for me. So if I can just rant about attachment theory for a second. Aaron: Please, yeah, g lay it out for people like me who don't really know much. Chelsea: Sorry. This is actually in one of my, I think it was second year of uni, one of my lecturers came in and he was like, this is the most important lecture you will ever hear in your degree. And it was, and it was about attachment theory. And now I'm sharing it for free. So you're welcome. Aaron: Wow. And now you're sharing it. There you go. Sharing on a random podcast. There you go. Thank you. Thank you. Chelsea: Basically, attachment theory suggests that we learn, we build expectations for our relationships based on our primary caregiver. Aaron: Gotcha. Yeah. Chelsea: So in that case, that would usually be mom and dad, but we learned what to expect out of relationships from the very first relationships that we ever have. And the different sort of categories, I guess, of attachment, they shift into four different categories. There's secure attachment, anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, disorganized attachment. There was an experiment that was done, I can't remember how long ago, 1900s. on babies with their moms. And basically the experiment was observing moms with their children, taking moms out of the room to see how the baby would react, and then bringing the mom back into the room to see what would happen, how the baby would react. When, for babies that have a secure attachment, so secure attachment meaning that they, have an expectation that they will be cared for, safe, nurtured, that kind of thing. Babies that are secure, when they were with their mom in the room, they felt they were playing with her, they were happy. Sometimes they were with mom and sometimes they would go off and sort of play. They were secure. When mom left, they'd get sad, they'd cry. but usually could be consoled by someone. And then when mom came back, they'd be really happy and, mom's back, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And then, you know, everything went back to normal, they kept playing. Aaron: Yeah, yeah. Chelsea: For babies that had an anxious attachment style, and I'll explain what that means in a second, they would... When mum was in the room, they were like clinging to mum. So they wouldn't really like leave mum very much. They didn't want to explore the Aaron: Or play, yeah. Chelsea: room or play. When mum left, they were inconsolable, really upset. Someone would try to comfort them. It wouldn't work. But then when mum came back, you'd expect them to be like, my gosh, thank you, mum's back. But they were almost a little bit wary of mum. They were like, happy to be back, but also you left me and Aaron: Right. Chelsea: I don't know what to expect. Like I do want to cling to you, but also what just happened? What did you just do? You're Aaron: Right. Chelsea: an unpredictable person in my life. So that's what attachment anxiety usually is, Aaron: Right. Chelsea: is unpredictability in a caregiver. Like babies, like, Aaron: Sorry, Chelsea h sorry, you might have said this. How old were the kids in that experiment? newborn six months, eight months, something like that? toddlers. Okay. Toddlers. Okay. So t eighteen months up to three year old, maybe something like that. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Chelsea: There would have been toddlers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so. Aaron: Yeah. So you had the anxious one. Yes, QR anxious. Chelsea: Attachment avoidance Aaron: Yep. Chelsea: would be when babies were in the room with their mom, they almost didn't really acknowledge that mom was in the room. They were just doing their own thing. When mom left the room, didn't really affect them. They kept doing their own thing. When mom came back in the room, didn't really affect them. Aaron: Right, okay. Yep. Chelsea: So attachment avoidant babies, it would then show that they've learned to be independent, that I don't. Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: I don't need anyone, I have to fend for myself because usually that attachment figure has been unpredictable and I can't rely on them so I just have to look after myself thing. Disorganized attachment is something that sort of came. was researched a little bit later and is a bit complicated so I won't get into it. But those are the main categories of Aaron: Right. Chelsea: attachment. Obviously someone that has a secure attachment then moves through the world with the expectation that I am safe, I'm secure, I'm gonna be loved when I form new relationships, I trust them until they do something that means I have to put a boundary in for someone that has attachment anxiety. they're going to move through the world with a lot of wariness and feeling like I can't trust people. People are unpredictable. You never know when someone's going to turn and then someone with an avoidant Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: attachment is going to go, okay, well, I have to just sort of rely on myself. This Aaron: Yeah, I don't need anyone. Yeah. Chelsea: is, yeah, I don't need anyone. I'm good. I'll form relationships, but they're never going to be super intimate or vulnerable. Aaron: Hmm. Chelsea: So I guess the connection there to... God is that God is just the ultimate secure attachment figure like which is incredible Aaron: Mm. That's good. Hmm. Chelsea: because so much of therapy is about helping people to understand like to unlearn some of these patterns and processes and Aaron: Hmm. Chelsea: so for God for Jesus to come in and say You are held you are safe. I'm not going anywhere You can do anything you can kick scream Do whatever I'm not leaving is incredible and like so Aaron: Mm-hmm. Chelsea: healing from a trauma perspective that we have access to that as well. Cause a lot of people when they've, you whatever families they've grown up in feel like Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: I'm, you know, I'm broken. I'm lost cause. I'm never gonna be able to fix these patterns in relationships. And that's not to say that, you know, just because you become a Christian, you're instantly healed of all of those things. But there is such security. Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: and comfort that comes from that relationship. he offers nurturance, Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: unconditional love, protection, soothing, trust. You know, can have faith in him. He's not unpredictable. He's not leaving. He's not going to let you fend for yourself. Totally, totally. Aaron: Yeah. Grace and grace as well. Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: So that's like sort of general Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: intersectionality before we get into the sort of nitty gritty. Aaron: Yeah. No, that's good. That that I think Yeah, 'cause that's such a good point, 'cause it's it's just we have the one that's the most secure. Like it's the Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: grace. Yeah, I think that's one of the things that changed my relationship with God the most is really understanding Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: his grace. And I don't know if you've ever Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: read the book Karis by Preston Sprinkle. My goodness, like that's a that yeah. Chelsea: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Aaron: I mean it's just so like it's just so overwhelming just how Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: how I like how he pictures just he pictures the grace of God in the Old Testament. It's an amazing book. Go and read it if you haven't read it already, but just Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: to see how yeah, the love is so secure. And if he's secure, then you can find safety in him. And yeah, it Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: doesn't necessarily fix everything 'cause it depends how you engage him and all those kinds of things. but yeah, I think just to know as Christians we do have something and someone that is the ultimate security is so is so helpful. So that's a great point. So Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm. Aaron: yeah, you go on. Whatever you we're gonna go to next. Chelsea: anyway, what were we going to circle back to? We were going to circle back to the secular versus, yeah, I can. Aaron: Yeah, do you want to do talk about that first? The the secular yeah, because there's the questions about that. do you go to a Chr Christians, Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: if you are a Christian, should you go to a Christian counselor? sorry, Christian psychologist, or do you go Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Aaron: to a secular if you have the choice? Because there are some that might not have those those choices, like have both both in front of them. So if you have the both Chelsea: Yep. Totally. Yeah. Aaron: options, what would your advice be with that? And your thoughts on that? Chelsea: I have had experience with both. I've been to Christian counselors, I've been to psychologists. From my perspective, it kind of depends on what you're going to therapy for. I had had a few experiences with psychologists and a lot of what I was going to them for was my own sin history and I felt like they just didn't fully get it. I felt like I had to explain a lot of things to them and even then they didn't like fully grasp it. So was like, okay, I feel like a Christian counselor is needed in this sort of Aaron: Right. Okay. Yep. Chelsea: But then... Yeah, more recently, I feel like I've been wrestling with a lot of anxiety, depression, and not that Christian counselors can't help with that, but I just sort of felt like a psychologist would be good to look into seeing a psychologist that's just a little bit more, a little bit, I guess, better trained in mental health disorders rather than like... Aaron: Right, right. Chelsea: life circumstances and issues and... Aaron: Gotcha. Wait, so are Christian counselors is counseling the same as psychologists? It's not, right? Count Chelsea: Well in Australia, it's not I'm a little bit confused about how it works in other countries. Aaron: Right. Chelsea: I know that in the US Like a therapist means a lot of different things but a psychologist is anyway, but in Australia Aaron: Gotcha. Chelsea: a Psychologist is someone that is trained in like a mental health profession Aaron: Gotcha. Chelsea: Counselors can help you through again life circumstances they can help guide you they can help dig into your history help you to make connections but they're not trained to treat depression anxiety like that kind of thing is my understanding Aaron: Yeah, on that mental health. Got you. So are there cr so are there Christian psychologists? Chelsea: yes, I mean, I'm a Christian psychologist, but I don't, but obviously I don't practice as, because psychologists Aaron: shore, sorry, sorry. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, 'cause I guess like the Chelsea: are registered under the government, right? Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: So I can't call myself a, it's like saying, there Christian teachers? Like, yes, there are Aaron: Got you. Chelsea: Christian teachers. Can they teach Christianity? No. Aaron: Yeah, yeah, I got you. Yeah, okay. So it's not an equivalent, there's not a here's psychologist and Chelsea: So yeah. Aaron: then there's a practice for there's a there's a pr practice that's specifically Christian psychologists. Do they have do we have that or No So we don't have that? Okay, got you. Chelsea: Yeah, yeah, to my understanding, to my understanding. mean, you can know, I think you can find, you can always ask, you know, depending on what clinic you're curious about visiting, you can always ask like, any of the psychologists there Christian? But Yeah, usually people don't advertise that about themselves as well, because the whole Aaron: Okay, okay, that makes it so Chelsea: point of psychology is to take me out of my own history and my own biases have nothing to do with our relationship. So, yeah. Aaron: Okay. All right. Yep. Okay, that's helpful. I d I might sound so dumb. I didn't know that. That's cool. That's cool. Okay. So you can Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: so if you do find a Christian psychologist, say just for example, can then they start Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: to engage with your faith and they can start talking about their faith, or are they not allowed to do that? Or it just depends. Chelsea: It would, it would depend. Yeah. So Aaron: Yeah. Okay, cool. Chelsea: some psychologists are not going to feel comfortable doing that because they have really strong boundaries about they Aaron: Gotcha. Chelsea: don't want to share about their personal lives. But yeah, if you ask Aaron: Okay. Chelsea: for that and they're happy and they're comfortable potentially, but also my, so my psychologist at the moment is to my understanding, she's not a Christian psychologist. but a good psychologist will work within your value system. So even if they're Aaron: Gotcha. Chelsea: not a Christian, if they understand your faith and are curious about what's important to you, they're gonna also work with that, if that makes sense, rather than like pushing Aaron: okay. Yeah, great. Chelsea: their own agenda onto you. Yeah, yeah. Aaron: Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. That's good. Okay, that's helpful. All right, cool. Sorry. That's just I was just curious about that. All right. so sorry, yeah, so go back to Chelsea: Yeah, no, it's a good question. Aaron: sorry, if you have any other thoughts on the yeah, Christian counselling and secular psychologists. Chelsea: Yeah, yeah, I think it really depends on on what you're looking, why you're looking for the counselor, why you're looking for a psychologist and also just personal preference. I mean, if you feel like I'm not comfortable, I want them to be a Christian. That's fine. I mean, it's better to get some support than none. I would say. And, you know, this would be at the discretion of potentially your counselor as well. I think it's ideal if you've got more severe mental health issues to if you know that you have a pretty gnarly trauma history, if you've had different diagnoses in the past. Having some psychologists involved I think is Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: helpful and usually a good counselor will recommend that as well. Yeah, they'll say look Aaron: Point you there. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Chelsea: this isn't my field expertise. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Aaron: expertise or yeah field, yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's good. What do you what do you think about how do you how do as as a practicing Christian, say practicing Christian, yeah, they're going to say so let's say they are seeing a psychologist, how do you that how would you advise obviously thinking about faith and like prayer, talking to other Christians about what's going on, those kinds of Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: things, like how do we how do we use all that in in in harmony? To make the most of it. Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. as in how do we use counseling, prayer, bring it all. Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. How do we Yeah, 'cause I'm sure that there might be some people who might feel I I only want to talk to psychologists about this. Or there could be people that go, I Chelsea: Mmm, yeah. Aaron: I'm talking to you know, I'm getting discipling from my me my disciple or my mentor and I'm talking Chelsea: Totally. Aaron: to him about all my mental health stuff, all the all the stuff going on. I don't need to see a psychologist or I don't need to see a counselor. Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: Yep, right, right. Yeah, the scripture that's coming to mind for me is about living in the light in 1st John, right? I think it is about, Aaron: Yep. Yeah, walking. Walking as Jesus did. Chelsea: yeah, walking in the light like... I think absolutely it's all well and good to compartmentalize and to say this is my person for this thing and this is my person for this thing and to have boundaries and to say yeah I think that's understandable. Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: But I also think there's something to be said of like just living in the light so like not being shy about the fact that you go to see a psychologist or even if you don't go into full detail about what you're talking about in therapy. conversations with people around you in community about. the fact that this has been a struggle for a really long time and maybe you don't go into all the depths of the trauma and those sorts of things, but just like, yeah, this is just something I'm working through at the moment. just, I would really appreciate prayers. I'd really appreciate hangouts. Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: And even just in your prayer life, living in the light in that way as well, like that Aaron: Hm. Chelsea: it's not just a psychologist thing that... You know again going back to God is this like a secure attachment figure that he wants to hear all of it and has the capacity to hear all of it Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: so I feel like that's like a Zoomed out sort Aaron: Yeah. It's good. Chelsea: of answer, but yeah, I just I feel like just being honest about Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: what's going on in your life to an extent, always. Aaron: Yeah. Do you think it's good to have like less people that you're talking to? Like a smaller inner group that you're d or do you think it's good Chelsea: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Aaron: to be fully open? no, I'm a talk to everyone you know, obviously not talk everyone, but yeah, like obviously Chelsea: Mm, mm. Aaron: it's a just a an idea, but like is there a number that you think, man, if I've got these like three like three people in the church that I that do know me and then that I'm really Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: kinda open with going to counselling or psychol psychologist? Like what what are your thoughts on some of that stuff? Chelsea: Yeah, Aaron: Rather than just giving bits and pieces to everyone and anyone in any moment. Chelsea: yeah. No, totally, totally. I think wherever there is depth and vulnerability, I think that is good. So if it gets to a certain number where you feel like there's not much depth here, I'm I'm talking to so many people that I can only go so deep with them. Yeah, and I guess that number is different for different people. For some people, it's just like, I've got this one person that I call Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: all the time when I'm in crisis. Or for other people, they feel like they can have like five really solid friendships, Aaron: Yeah, relationships, yeah. Chelsea: relationships. So yeah, I think it's just sort of like figuring out for yourself where you find that like depth and vulnerability. I feel like my Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: sweet spot has been probably like three. So you're like consistently Aaron: Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: speaking to and vulnerable with and roar and yeah, yeah. Aaron: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I yeah, I guess you just don't want have just one 'cause if that person is not there, then who you gotta talk to, right? And then but you don't want to have like Yeah, it's all on them, true. Yeah. And then you don't wanna have Chelsea: Totally. And also it's all on them. Yeah. Aaron: like eight or ten. I again I'm just throwing out numbers, but a lot where it just you just feel drained where you have to talk about it every single time and then it Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: just gets yeah. But to have people that know where you're at. And again, relationship, like just being in relationship with people, and having close friends is really, really important. Yeah. No, Chelsea: Literally. Yeah. Aaron: that's really good. Do you think what do you th yeah, do you do you think so I don't know if there's controversial, but do you think that Christians do you think we over spiritualize mental health? Do you think there is a I don't know if you want to talk I don't know, there's and I don't Chelsea: Hmm Aaron: I don't know if you have any thoughts about some of this stuff, but there's some views that, you know, the demon possessions in the Bible and and so you know the the foaming Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: at the mouth and these kinds of things were mental health things or serious mental health Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: diagnoses or something like that. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. But in Chelsea: Yep. Aaron: general, do you think that we can again you're speaking out of your context, so it's that's just what you've seen. Do you think we can Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Aaron: over spiritualise it a little bit? Do you think it's getting better? what should we look out for? Anything there that you think Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: about? Chelsea: Yes, definitely. We definitely Aaron: Yes. Okay, great. Yeah. Chelsea: over-spiritualise mental health issues. I feel like there's just so many different random examples that are popping into my head of the ways Aaron: Sure. Chelsea: that we talk about mental health. Yeah, think that's it. For me, the way we over-spiritualise is the way that we respond to people's mental health issues, which is, Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: you you just... Are you in prayer? Are you reading your Bible? I've heard things like, like if you're just like, if you just get in Bible studies and you're outwardly focused and it's gonna do wonders for your mental health, which is not untrue. Like being outward is absolutely so important for your wellbeing to not just like be in your own shell and be withdrawn and isolate and that sort of thing. But. for the answer for your mental health to be, well just do something. Like what if you just do more, then you'll be great. Aaron: Right. Yeah. Chelsea: Which I actually think usually is counterintuitive. that person then just feels guilty, so they do more. And then, Aaron: That they're not doing it. right, okay, yeah. Chelsea: yeah, either they don't do it, so they feel guilty or they do more because they feel like they're not doing enough. And then that creates this... really unhealthy relationship with church and with God Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: is, well, I need to, well, if I'm struggling, I need to just do more. need to, yeah, which again, from a mental health perspective is not untrue. Like it is, you do need to, it's not good for you to be in your room, to be in your house, to not be seeing people, et cetera. But I think the oversimplification of just, well, if you were praying, if you were reading your Bible, if you were, you know. Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Which I'm sure you wouldn't say is y you you should definitely be doing those things. But I guess it's it's just knowing Chelsea: Please. Yeah. Aaron: where the it's like knowing where the I say this cautiously, but it's like not that God c I I believe that God could heal someone from the mental health things, like instantly. I believe that. I believe that he could. But I Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Aaron: also believe that God uses like as we talk about with healings, like physical healings and stuff, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: go to a doctor. It doesn't mean you shouldn't go to surgery. Like Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Aaron: God has why why couldn't we say that God has placed these professions in our Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: world to help us? and Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: yeah, it almost like I I feel like sometimes and again this is me with the way I used to think and maybe I do sometimes even think this sometimes too, which I gotta be careful of. It's kinda like, well, you know, if they if people just go to yeah, if if people just go to if they've got issues, just pray about yeah, like what you said, just pray about it. You should be good. God is good. Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Aaron: He'll heal you and and I think we can if we if we and again I felt this if we encourage people to go to something, to see a profession or something, we might think it takes away from God's power or something. I like, come on, yeah, God can do it, God can do it. But Chelsea: Mm. Mm. Yeah. Aaron: again, but I think it's having that balance, like all things together. Like, you know, no, like God could use you don't know, right? You don't know. Chelsea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Aaron: God could use this situation. and this Chelsea: Totally. Aaron: person and this psychologist and this whatever it might be. Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: Yeah. my God, totally. I have, my psychologist has spoken God's truth to me. I feel Aaron: Come on. Chelsea: it. I have felt in session. I can't remember what Aaron: Ha ha. Chelsea: exactly the situation was, but she was saying like, and who, who can we picture to like, we were in some sort of imaginal thing in therapy. Aaron: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Chelsea: And she was like, and who, who can you picture to really hold that? And I was like, I'm seeing Jesus right next to me. Aaron: Come on. Chelsea: and my psychologist was like, whoa. amazing, that's beautiful. Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: So yeah, there is like so many, you can be, anybody can speak to you. Doctors, psychologists, people at work, yeah, Aaron: Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Mm. Chelsea: it's yeah. And also I think to the point of like you know prayer being the thing that you need to do or Aaron: Mm-hmm. Chelsea: reading your Bible or whatever, most of the time these people are doing that or they have tried to do Aaron: It's a good point. Yeah, yeah. Chelsea: it. They have like, that's usually their first point is like, okay, like I really need to pray more. really need to. So yeah, it's not like new information that you're giving them. They're like, yeah, I know. I know that I Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: need to do that. And it doesn't feel like it's working. And usually that's because yeah, there's this like, there's this Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: insecure. anxious attachment to God, right? Of Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: I feel insecure in this relationship. feel like, maybe it's not that I can't trust God, but that I can't trust myself in the relationship. I'm Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: struggling right now. I feel like he's gonna abandon me because I'm struggling. Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: and I'm reading and I'm praying through that attachment anxiety lens. Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: So sometimes it's not even about drawing people to reading and praying, but it's more like, how are you reading and praying? Are you Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: praying from a place of... grace and being held and secure and you know or are you Aaron: Good. Chelsea: praying from I'm so sorry god I don't I can't figure this out I don't know what I don't know what I'm doing wrong I don't you know Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: yeah Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's good. It's good yeah, it's definitely good to think about. I think, yeah, I think like what you're talking about, it's just we just gotta know, like, everything can be used. Like everything can be used and Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: and we have to we gotta utilize it. Like absolutely gotta utilize it. And there shouldn't be Chelsea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Aaron: and I know there's still always a stigma there's I think there always will be. I think depending on your tradition, your Christian tradition too, Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: and what you believe theologically about some of these things and what it could equate to or where it comes from, And I'm a believer that there i there can be things that are really deep rooted that maybe only God can. It has to be God that Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: has to draw that stuff out, but it doesn't mean that you can't do that and also use the professionals that God has given us in in the world. So yeah, so that's really good thoughts, man. I I love that. I love that. how Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Aaron: how how has doing being a psychologist and studying all of this, how's it helped you in the way that you practice your faith, like in your in your walk with Jesus? Chelsea: Yeah, I'm thinking about it from being a psychologist and also just like being a human being. Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: I think I have just felt so much more secure in my relationship with God. Just Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: understanding. that I am born out of security, that I'm born out of a space of loved-ness, because I think a lot of my, and I think an experience for a lot of people growing up in church is you experience God as good and as loving, 100%, but you also feel a lot of the pressure that comes with being a good Christian and doing the right thing and Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: the perfectionism. that my worth is in what I do, what I provide, how I perform. Aaron: Mm-hmm. Chelsea: So I feel like understanding, seeing God in psychology, in mental health is like, just helped me to like embody that grace more. Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: helped me to understand that I am nothing, can do nothing, I know nothing, I provide nothing to God. Aaron: Mm-hmm. Chelsea: All I am is with Him and that is enough for Him is to be loved Aaron: Hmm. Yeah. Chelsea: and to be held and even saying that I'm like, there's part of me that's like, is it enough though? Is being with Him enough? But it's true. Like Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: it's just being side by side with Him. is enough which is so special and it just it transforms my prayer life it transforms the way i read because it's not it's not out of obligation out of fear out of someone's gonna find out that i'm not doing my quiet times it's Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: you know it's like i he has freely poured out love onto me and i want to do it back i want to provide the same thing back yeah Aaron: Yeah, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The sa the security I think is so yeah, the grace, man. Just that's that's what you're making me think about a lot, Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: is just, yeah, we have such safety and security in our relationship with God. Chelsea: so much. Aaron: Yeah. I guess you now understand at even a level that you couldn't before because of the psychology. You're probably making ties Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: like connections, like, that's why that works, so that's why Yeah, yeah. Chelsea: Literally, literally, which I think is so cool about science. I think that's what a lot of people experience when they do science, whether it's Aaron: Hmm. Chelsea: psychology, whether it's they study medicine, don't know, physics, I don't know all the other types of sciences. But is it helps them to like have an even greater understanding of God and even greater Aaron: Mm-hmm. Chelsea: appreciation for like, because science is just the study of creation. Aaron: Yeah, and how things work, right? Yeah. Chelsea: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. Aaron: Yeah, that's so cool. That's so cool. How Chelsea: It's beautiful. Aaron: do you think How do you think the church, when I say the church, I mean just church church congregations in general, right? Like we think about Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: how do you think the church can grow in the area of mental health and how we administer that either like not I don't know, again, I don't really know how to say all this, but how we can in our communities, in our faith communities, church communities, to assist help mental health be the not have stigma, to do a better job in how we administer I guess care for people that yeah, Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: have are going through mental health struggles. Chelsea: Mm-hmm. mean, I think we've talked about a lot of it in terms of just being there for people, being curious about someone's mental health, like, you know, Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: what a person might be going through. I feel like from like a structural perspective, from a leadership perspective, if I can Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: even deem to go there, Aaron: No, that's all right. Please go. Chelsea: I feel like I feel very passionately about leaders being trained in Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: mental health. Of course, that doesn't mean that leaders Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: have to be psychologists or counselors or anything like that. I think especially as like a leader of a church or a ministry, you're looking after so many people that I don't know, let's say 20 % of the people in your ministry are going through mental health issues. you're not, if you don't understand mental health issues Aaron: In touch, yeah. Chelsea: very well, if you're like, hey, you can only do so much for those people. So I do feel like there Aaron: Hm. It's a good point. Chelsea: needs to be some level of training for, Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: I don't look, don't know what that looks like. I don't know. if that would be secular training, if it would be Christian mental health courses or what have you. But yeah, I think that's where the Aaron: Good point. Chelsea: culture comes from as well, obviously, is like if Aaron: Hm. Chelsea: leadership knows how to talk about these issues, then that sort of trickles down. Yeah. Aaron: Yeah, and that destigmatizes that stuff too, hey. Yeah, my Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: mum yeah, mum was like shout out mum. she was the one who really pushed me and Esther to go and do the mental health first aid course. She's like, Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: Can you go and do it please? Like my mum just so I mean you probably I know if you know this, but she works in Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: Community service, she has a background in in disability, community service and for Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: many, many, many years and she's does me like has learned a lot of mental health stuff, done a lot of courses, and she's like, Aaron, especially when we were in teens ministry, she's like, You need to know this stuff. And I was like I was like, Chelsea: literally. Aaron: Mom, the Holy Spirit will show me, okay? He will give me wisdom. He reveals all things. He reveals all things. I think he did. I think he did through the course. and Chelsea: Did it? Right. Yeah. Aaron: And and I think again, Salvation Chelsea: Amen. Amen. Aaron: Army, which is a Christian, I know there's some things there, but they're a Christian-based Chelsea: Mm. Mm-hmm. Aaron: obviously they they have churches and stuff. And so it was really cool doing it. And it I I Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: was actually very grateful that I did it. And again, I think it's not I think we we have to understand it's not about becoming an expert. Like I can't I can't become an expert. Chelsea: No. Aaron: You're way more of an expert and you're always growing. But even then you'll realize that Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: I guess that you know there's your limits too. And I think I just have to know Chelsea: hardly. Aaron: that I I shouldn't take on something that I'm not qualified to take on. I think that's what I need. And I've Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: and I've I've tried I think I've tried to do that. Where at where in the wrong way. Where I think I've someone had a mental health thing, I'm trying to like and like over spiritualise it. Or, you know, like, come on, bro, like, Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: yeah, man, come on, just it'd be good if you get out, you know, be outwardly focused. Like let's get with the boys, let's have a D group and you know. And again, I know that Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: those things aren't bad, like what you were saying, but it should have been I Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: think the ideal is me going, Yeah, there's some serious stuff here, man. I honestly I don't know what to do, but I know someone that would know what to do. And I and and I think you Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: gotta go and see, let me come with you, let me help you set that stuff up and Chelsea: Totally, yeah. Aaron: and yeah, which I've had in the past, but I think that's to take me it took me a while. And I think seeing the slow but steady, I think improvement in the stigma of mental health, particularly in in Christianity, I think is getting better and and so I think that's helped me a lot. and even this, it's been Chelsea: year. Aaron: really cool just to see some of the thoughts here and and the perspective from you. but yeah, so I think it's it's so I love what you said. Yeah, every leader should have some kind of the way I see it is first aid. it's probably good. just general first aid. it's like it's like if you work with kids or if you work Chelsea: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Aaron: in some kind of capacity, you need first aid training. just because someone might fall over and hurt themselves really badly and you need to get a concussion. You need to know what to do. Or know when you can't do something. and I think it's the same thing. Chelsea: Agreed. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're not a paramedic. You don't become a paramedic after you do first aid or a doctor. You just first responder to, Aaron: That's right. Chelsea: you know, learning. Sometimes you are the first responder as a leader to this person's mental health issues Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: and just knowing, yeah, what to do. Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: What the signs are. Yeah. Aaron: That's awesome. That's really good. do you have any more thoughts on any of the mental health stuff? and church and faith or anything, before I ask you kind of the the final question here. But yeah, do you have any Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: any other things you want to talk about or any thoughts? Chelsea: I don't think so. think it's, yeah, just mostly highlighting the importance of community and relationship. And yeah, I think there there is a lot of fear about, what do I do? What do I say? And it's like, if you love this person, if you like even what you saying before about, OK, I can't look after this person, but I can bring them to their appointment. I can help Aaron: Hm. Chelsea: them make the phone call to a doctor or, you know, that is so. does wonders, you know, like Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: I can't see people unless there are, you know, there are plenty of clients I see that are there because they've had people in their lives that have brought them there. Aaron: Mm, brought them. Chelsea: So. Yeah, the, might seem like I'm not doing much. All I'm doing is just hanging out with this person and checking up on them and Aaron: doing the admin or something. Yeah. Chelsea: but you're really it's huge. It's so huge. The amount of clients I see that I'm like, I wish you had this community. I wish that you had a church community to rely on for, but they're just so isolated. So yeah, it's, it's a big deal. Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. That's good. and okay, to the person who is let's say there's someone listening who gen generally thinks that yeah, I think I needed they're a cr let's say they're th they're a Christian, or maybe not, but let's just say they are a Christian and they're just going, I think I need to talk to someone. I've never talked about it before, even in my ch church community, I don't even know where to get started. What would your advice be Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: from where they're at now to try to maybe even get to seeing a a professional psychologist. Chelsea: Mmm. I would say if you're at the point where you feel like you're in the maybe, then already a lot of the work has been done. cause if you're in a position where you're like open to seeing someone, that's a big deal. I think. Usually going to a trusted person in your community is best. again, not for them to solve it, but just to have it be out there, just to have somebody know Aaron: Hmm. Chelsea: that's not just a professional or maybe it's daunting to tell a professional, I've never met this person before, I don't know what to say, I don't know what to expect from therapy. If you know someone in the community that's been to therapy, asking them what their experience is like, what to expect. And then, the internet is a beautiful thing. There Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: are so many great... podcasts about Christian mental health. Aaron: Do you have any good ones? Off the top of your head. Chelsea: not off the top of my head, I don't, I'm so sorry. But even just Googling Christian therapists near me, like Aaron: Okay, that's right, that's right. good, good, all good. That's all good. Yeah. Chelsea: that's, I think what's so incredibly helpful about, like I think that's how I found my counselor is I just, or I think actually she got recommended to me. But just, yeah, looking for, Aaron: Stretching up. Chelsea: and even if it's like a specific issue, maybe it's like Christian therapists that deal with trauma. or Christian therapists that, know, whatever, using the internet. to find someone, if it's a Christian counselor and then yeah, going to, don't know the processes in other countries, but at least in Australia, going to your doctor, going to your GP and sometimes that's all it is. Sometimes it's just telling them, hey, I'm struggling mentally and they kind of guide that process for you and they can say, Aaron: Awesome. Chelsea: they already have a psychologist they can refer you to or if you've already done your research and you have someone you want to see, they can just make Aaron: That out. Yeah. Chelsea: the referral to that psychologist. So, they can, you know, that's where you can talk to them about medications and things like that if something that if that's something that you feel like would be helpful for you. Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: But yeah, I've had plenty of clients that get their mental health care plan and then they don't come see a psychologist for a year. Aaron: Right. Chelsea: So first step is just go into the doctor and maybe you don't see a psychologist because you don't feel ready, but you've got the referral there and you're ready to go and for whenever. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Aaron: Yeah, taking those first steps. Yeah. Yeah. And c can you speak to the expectations of like going to yeah, going to Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: therapy? 'Cause yeah, it just comes to my t to my mind now 'cause I think I've heard a lot of again, I haven't personally been in a a psychologist session or anything like that. but I think some people that I have had the privilege to walk with through some of these things, they might start and they do a couple of sessions that go, It didn't help me. Right? It didn't help me. I Chelsea: Mmm... Mm-hmm. Aaron: it didn't I didn't really feel anything after that and I just spent a lot of money or something like that. but how Chelsea: Yep. Yep. Aaron: do people manage their expectations in a healthy way Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: when it comes to coming to yeah, to getting mental health help? Chelsea: Mm-hmm. I love that question. I I will use my intro that I will give to clients because that's usually what I will. Aaron: yeah, we're not we're not even paying for this, so listen up everyone. Listen up. We're not even paying for this right now. That's crazy. Come on, Charles. Okay, okay, okay. Chelsea: I won't go through all the information about informed consent and all of those things. But usually I will say something like, this is our first session together. This is going to be a bit of getting to know you. This is your chance to scope me out. We're going to be talking about a lot of really personal, difficult things and you have to feel comfortable. You have to feel safe with me to do that. So today is your chance to like. see if I'm a vibe for you and it's my chance to see if you know I'm the right psych for you in terms of being trained you know in the issues that you're dealing with and that kind of thing so I first session is I would say first like in my experience, this might be different for other psychs, but in my experience, usually it takes about three to four sessions to like get some momentum going for them, for the psych to Aaron: get going. Cool. That's that's helpful. Chelsea: get to know you, for you to scope them out as well. And even for the psych to like get some momentum going in terms of what kind of treatment, what kind of therapy they think suits you. But yeah, I think number one thing is that we've been saying, the relationship is the most important part of therapy. So if you feel like it's not a vibe, it's just, it's not a vibe. Yeah. And that's fine. but that doesn't mean Aaron: With the th with the therapist. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Do d do psychologists take that personally? Or are they good? Chelsea: Of course, how can you not? Of Aaron: Okay, yeah, it's true. I I guess that's true. Yeah, I would I would. Chelsea: course, a psychologist will say, I won't take it personally. And they won't, they're professional, they can move on. But depending on the psych, sure. Sure, you're gonna be like, man, what was it? What did I do? But Aaron: Yeah, of course, everyone wants best. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, okay. Yeah, it's like th yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Chelsea: you're paying for the service. Psychs understand that if it's not working for you, it's not working. But yeah, I think that's my number one thing is if... the therapy or the psych is not working for you, that is so fine. It doesn't mean that psychology or counseling doesn't work for you. It just means that that person is not Aaron: Good. That relationship. Chelsea: a fit. Cause I've seen four psychs and counselors over my time and the first two, like, it wasn't really like, I definitely got wisdom from it, but not really a fit. My third Christian counselor, she was so, so helpful, so beautiful. I think it was during lockdown too, which was really good. And then the psych I'm seeing now, we get along so well, we vibe. So Aaron: That's awesome. Chelsea: yeah, you just kind of have to, you got to date around a little bit. Aaron: Yeah. That's good. That's good to know. I I think I heard someone say once I again they're a professional in the mental health space. They kinda said like psych psychologists are like hairdress it's like hairdressing for your brain. Like it's okay to shop around. Like and I think some people might feel once I'm in, it's like I gotta lock that in. but I think I've I've Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: heard that from multiple people in the field. It's like no, like you have to find someone that you really connect with or that you feel like there's a connection Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: connection there. Can you tell us what Again, I know it's different for every person, but what do you look for when you on the p the I don't know if you want to even speak to to the professional side, but also maybe even on as a patient side, I guess. On the patient side, say you're going into a first session and you're trying to figure out Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Aaron: if w I don't know, if we connect or not, and you've said to give it about three or four, but what are you looking for in those in those sessions to kind of go, okay, yeah, I think we're rocking here, before kind of making a call Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: on it. Chelsea: Hmm, usually what are on the professional side what I'm gauging is What their motivation level is for change like where are they sort of at with? Are they just sort of like here because someone asked them to come here have they been on this long journey? And I'm just sort of at the end of it like, you know Sort Aaron: Right. Yeah. Chelsea: of trying to figure out where they're at on the journey And then, yeah, sometimes depending on the client, you're doing assessment and diagnosis and that kind of thing in the first few sessions. yeah, sort of putting the feelers out usually for, you this is the type of therapy that I think might work for you. Does that, do you think that's good? Do you think, whatever. In terms of like, what helps the relationship? I don't know what to say other than just vibes. I feel like, I feel like you just, I feel like you just know. Aaron: No, that's fair. Yeah, it's kinda like how do you how do you make a friend? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: if, yeah, my psych that I'm seeing now, I just I just, knew pretty quickly that she understood me, that we were gonna get along well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're not like, Aaron: Does it feel natural? Does it feel like more natural? Does it feel more like it's not you're not pushing as hard or is it Okay. Chelsea: if. Obviously you're going to have discomfort in therapy. You're talking about things that are not fun to Aaron: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Chelsea: talk about. Talking about trauma history, that sort of thing. But yeah, if you feel like there's, again, going back to attachment, you feel a level of safety, you feel a Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: level of protection that this person is not going to judge me. I don't, I'm not hiding thoughts from them because I think... that they're gonna steer me in this direction. And obviously that's not always a therapist fault sometimes, that's just your own, pattern and history and whatever. But yeah, if you feel comfortable, if you feel the vibe, then sweet. Seek out the vibe. Aaron: good. That's good. You heard it here first. See seek out the vibe. Seek out the vibe. I think no, but I honestly again I'm not obviously I'm not in the space at all, but I I do think there is you do get a kind of a feeling, like a gut feeling of whether or not you connect with someone. And and Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: I think that's that's what you kind of gotta look for. And sounds like you're saying it's okay Chelsea: Literally. Aaron: to go around and and try different psychologists and different yeah therapists so you can find that out. which is a good match. So Chelsea: for sure. Aaron: that's great. All right Charles our last question. I really appreciate your time. Chelsea: Okay, Aaron: But what ways and Chelsea: no worries. Aaron: I'm asking this to everyone, but yeah, what ways do you feel that God is reshaping you right now? This could be short or long, it's up to you. I guess I am asking I am asking a psych I know, I'm asking a psychologist too. yeah, that's right. yeah, it could be medium. Chelsea: So true. It really could. really could. And those are the only two options. It's short or long. Hmm. I feel like for the past, probably since COVID, but it's been a little bit more concentrated recently. I've just been needing to, I think I talked about this like beginning of our time, was just been like digging deeper into uncovering my biases, Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: you know. church communities I've grown up with different, like I wouldn't say rules, but like expectations, regulations, whatever. Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: I think I've been doing a lot of like chipping away at... yeah, just different, some of them are like, you know, sort of shallow, the way that we communicate with each other, the way we present to each other in church kind of things, but others Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: are a little bit deeper. I think that one of the biggest ways that I'm being reshaped, and I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot, because this is just coming back to like this security Aaron: All good, all good. It's good. Chelsea: sort of place. But I'm... I'm becoming, I'm trying to embody more and more like being made in God's image. There Aaron: Hmm. Chelsea: was, I think it's Baymar that describe it this way, that talk about... how we can often view ourselves and Christianity through either this like Genesis one lens or this Genesis three lens. Genesis one, Aaron: Hmm. Chelsea: we view ourselves as very good, as loved, as made complete, as with God. Whereas a Genesis three lens, we almost like start creation sometimes from the Genesis three story of we are broken, we are fallen, we're sinful, we can't be trusted. Again, a lot of that like insecure Aaron: Hmm. Chelsea: attachment sort of language. And obviously both things are biblical truth. I'm not trying to say that Genesis 3 we have to get rid of and it's not you know, like both are Aaron: No. Yeah, yeah. Chelsea: true but I think we so often see human beings through this like Genesis 3 lens of fallenness and brokenness and and Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: while that is part of the story it the story does start with I'm made complete, I'm made holy, I'm made in God's image. Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: So I think I'm like, I'm seeing myself through that, through like this inherent worthiness, cause I, and you know, this might just be my own internal sort of perfectionism and... anxieties but I think I have historically seen myself as needing to prove my worthiness or needing Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: to perform that. know, people are happy with me as long as I'm doing the right thing. I'm being a good Christian. Aaron: A B and C. Yeah. Chelsea: But I'm now coming to a place of like, I'm connecting more with scriptures about as far as the East is from the West. Aaron: The West, yeah. Chelsea: My worthiness cannot be taken away from me, which is incredible. And confronting. Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: Like I'm... connecting more with this image of the prodigal son over the Older son. I've always been the older of you Aaron: Mm. Mm-hmm. Right, right. Yeah. Chelsea: know, I'm toiling away but I'm connecting more with this Aaron: Yeah, it's kingdom kids. Yeah. Chelsea: like God's arms are like open and I am you know, some people are aware that I'm sort of wrestling at the moment with my relationship to church and different concerns and issues that I'm working through but I think through that it's easy when you're wrestling to feel like I'm in like the pigsty like I don't I Aaron: Mm. Chelsea: I'm wandering which you know I wouldn't use that word but it can feel that way Aaron: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Chelsea: and just I'm connecting more with this because when I can feel like my god what am I doing I I don't know what's right Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: I don't know what's wrong I don't like I'm literally the prodigal son, God's arms are open. He's running and he's not, yeah, it's not like his arms are open and he's like, yep, you know, come on, come on. Aaron: Amen. Come here. Come here. Yeah, yeah. Chelsea: He's like running towards the prodigal son. Like I'm so glad Aaron: Yeah, pursuing. Yeah. Chelsea: you're here. And I'm just like connecting with that image so much more, I think because I'm seeing myself through. God's eyes more, which is, it's uncomfortable. it's uncomfortable how loved I am. It's really confronting. Aaron: Yeah, yeah. Chelsea: but I guess it's like connecting me with that, 14 year old self a little bit more. That's like, my God, I'm so loved. Whatever Jesus wants me to do. I'll do it. because I'm so loved and I feel so secure and, Aaron: Yeah. Chelsea: yeah. So lots of little things in there that we could go into, but yeah. Aaron: No, that's I appreciate you sharing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, man. I I really appreciate you sharing that Chelsea: You Aaron: 'cause that's yeah, I've been thinking a little bit about that too. I think my conversation with Noah, he mentioned a similar thing about, you know, w how we identify ourselves as Christians. And I think a lot of the time I think as Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: evangelicals we tend to go on the side of, man, I'm a I'm a sinner, I'm the worst and I've Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Aaron: you know, God save me from the pits, you know, and of Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Aaron: And again, that is true. that is absolutely one hundred percent true. We do fall short of the glory of God and that's the only reason grace Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: means anything, right? 'Cause we were in the pits and he saved us when we couldn't we Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: didn't earn it. We didn't deserve it. And that's his that's his love. But I love the idea that, yeah, Noah mentioned similar just No, we should we should view we should also view ourselves as yeah, like similar to what you were saying and the what the what the Baymar pod was saying Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: is through that Genesis one. Like that's where it starts. Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: That that we were made in this image. And yes Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: Sin tainted it, amen. But no, this is who God made us to be and wants us to be and loves us despite our sin and loves us despite all of that. But yeah, that that lens of looking through ourselves through Genesis one is is it's really good. That's really good. and I yeah, I yeah, I think Chelsea: Mm. Mm. Aaron: we just nuance this out with saying again, it's not like either or is right or wrong. I I think similarly Chelsea: No. Aaron: it's like it's just balance, like have a good balance and understand Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: where our biases come from. and how Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: we 'cause we all have a bias. We all come to the scriptures Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Aaron: with lenses. it's it's we always say let's Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: try and be unbiased and I say that too, let's be unbiased to the text and we should try and try to remove all the lenses, Chelsea: Mm. Aaron: all the cultural lenses, all the other l but we all have no matter what you say, we have a lens, a theological lens that we approach scripture with. and that's okay. Like that's okay. Just admit that there is, realize that there is and be open to listening to other people's Chelsea: Yeah. Yeah. Aaron: Let's and that's what this podcast is really that's why I really l started this is to just let me just hear like different Chelsea: Mm-hmm Aaron: different thoughts and different perspectives. Not always gonna agree, Chelsea: So good. Aaron: but it lets me think about things and go, Man, that's good. And I think a big theme of this Chelsea: Yeah. Aaron: conversation has been security, the grace of God, and that yeah, we can find Chelsea: Yeah Aaron: that security is so so important, who you have your ultimate security in. and that's yeah, that's really powerful. So I really appreciate you sharing that. Absolutely, absolutely, man, Chelsea: Mm. Mm. Changes everything. Yeah. Of course. Aaron: absolutely. So well, Chelsea, it has been an absolute pleasure Chelsea: Mmm. Aaron: to have you on the podcast on Reshaped. Thank you so much for for joining us. Thank you so much for everyone who Chelsea: Thank you. Aaron: listened. And Chelsea any final words? Chelsea: Grateful to be here. Thank you so much. I'm like, I've gone from like seeing Aaron from afar and he's so cool. And now I'm having a con like, this is so cool. I love Aaron: Hey, hey. Chelsea: this. And I love these conversations. I love Aaron: Amen. Chelsea: just being able to, yeah, like have thoughtful conversation and be reshaped. It's just so beautiful. So I appreciate it. Appreciate being here. Aaron: Amen. Thanks, Chelsea. I appreciate it. Thanks everyone for listening. We'll see you in the next one. Peace.