Latest / NO FILTER / Joe Rogan Experience #2357 - Sarko Gergerian

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Joe Rogan Experience #2357 - Sarko Gergerian · NO FILTER

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Podcast Check it out.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: But Joe Regan Experience Train by Day Joe.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Rogan Podcast by Night All Day.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Hey, how are you, Joe?
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Good to see you.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's great to see you. It's great to be here. Man.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: How did you meet Paul?
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: So? Paulse Dammit's introduce me to you. So, how did
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: you meet Paul?
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah? So I was aware of Paul for quite some
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: time and this past Psychedelic Science, I was shadowing people,
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: and we're working to help the people that went to
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: the conference feel safe just because of the like the
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: nature of the environment that that that we're in now
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: in what way you know, Like so Psychedelic Science had
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of Jewish practitioners, They had invited Palestinian practitioners,
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: and there was Arab practitioners there. So there was a
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: lot of education around sensitive topics happen, you know, And
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: I was invited in just to be available to help
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: people feel secure.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: What were they worried about?
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, any protests building up.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Just because there was Jewish people impels to any people.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Well, you know the nature of the environment, right, there's
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: like wars going on across But this is a psychedelic conference,
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: This is a psychedelic conference. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: worried about protests breaking out at psychedelic conferences. Possible protests,
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: possible people getting overwhelmed with emotion. You know, because in
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Psychedelic Science twenty twenty three there was a situation where
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: when Rick Doblin was on stage, a group came in
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: and disrupted his presentation and they were allowed on stage
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: to speak.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: But that's a type of disruption, right, and it should
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: be handled carefully, and Rick handled like a master.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: What did he do?
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: He made space for them?
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Oh well, was that really the way to do it?
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Well, it depends, it depends, It depends. There's a time
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: and a place, right, And I think Psychedelic Science twenty
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: twenty five did a wonderful job hearing all the groups
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: that wanted to be there and allowing them to have
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: space to speak from their hearts and minds.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Why don't you tell everybody what your background is?
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Sure? Sure, so I am currently a law enforcement professional
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: at the rank of lieutenant out of Massachusetts. I've been
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: in law. I mean, my accent's going to kick in
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: and on and off, on and off through this whole couple. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: so that's been about fifteen years. I'm also a therapist
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: trained psychedelic assistant therapist, and I believe a lot of
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: people believe I'm the first law enforcement professional who got
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: a religious exemption at their place of work to access
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: and theogens.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: So how did your journey from being a law enforcement
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: professional to someone who's involved in psychedelics? How did that take?
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, I think I'm going to have to
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: go a little bit further back.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Sure for that.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: Sure. So I went to a little high school in Boston, Massachusetts,
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: Newman Prep, and when I graduated there, I was luckily
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: accepted into Northeastern University. So I go into Northeastern University
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: in my twenties and they asked you, what do you
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: want to major in? Right, and who knows what they
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: want to major in at that age, I was like,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: let's study psychology, right, get to know myself, figure things out.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Such a behavioral program. What I mean by that is rats, pressing, levers,
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: observable stuff. I wasn't getting what I was looking for.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: So I take a philosophy class, I take a religion class.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Eventually I take so many of those classes I graduate
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: with an undergraduate degree in religion and philosophy and a
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: huge minor in psychology. Right, so I'm a seeker at
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: that time as well. Northeastern is a co op school,
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: so you go to school for six months, you work
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: for six months. I was able to convince my co
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: op advisor to let me be a security guard in
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: the nightclub industry in Boston for my co op for school. Okay,
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: so five year program. I'm studying religion and I'm working
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: as a security guard in the nineties in the nightclub
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: scene in Boston. I have a front row seat when
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: ecstasy hits the scene, right. I start working when it's
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: high test stimulants and alcohol, and I'm there continuing to
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: work when the scene gets introduced to ecstasy MDMA. I
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: not only get to see how it affects people, but
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: it affect the whole culture. The people at the clubs
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: are no longer looking at each other like who are
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: you and what do you want? They're saying hi and
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: it smiling. They're high fiving each other when they meet up,
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: they're hug each other. I had that in my head
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: in my twenties. Okay, so I become a cop in
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: my thirties. I meet this police chief. He notices that
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: I think a little differently. I see things a little differently.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: My background's a little different than your typical officer. He
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: starts taking me to the International Association of Chiefs of
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Police conference every year. This is a really important point
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: the IACP. It's a really serious, huge international conference with
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: upper level chief executive level officers there. I go one
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: year when Rick Doblin's there in Florida. He's presenting on
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: phase two clinical trials, the results for MDMA assisted psychotherapy.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: It's efficacy against treatment resistant severe PTSD. I can't believe it. Actually,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: I've shared the story before. At the moment that he
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: was going to present, to the left was Rick Doblin
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: and to the right was Donald Trump. I'm not making
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: this up. Wow, Right, So I go left. I sit
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: in the front row, and the room that they gave him,
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: this huge room, has ten people in it because everybody's
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: everybody went right. Sixty seven percent of people with treatment
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: resistant severe PTSD had their PTSD pushed into sustained remission.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: Sustained remission from how many experiences. I think the way
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: it was set up was like two or three. You know,
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: there's a model to the framework, preparation, experience, space experienced,
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: space experience, and then integration.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: And this is all done through maps. So it's all
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: done in the clinical environment.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, very controlled, very controlled. Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Rick's presenting there. I'm in the front row. I'm shaken.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: I jump on stage. I be line it to him.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: I introduce myself and I say I have to help.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: He says, why don't you tell me some stuff about
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: who you are first? You know what I mean? Like,
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: this is this guy in front of me shaking is
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: I'm shaking his hand and saying I have to help
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: with this. And he finds out I'm a therapist too,
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: cop and therapist, and he says the best way to
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: help is to become a psychedelic assistant therapist. What what's that?
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: You'd never heard of anything?
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: Never heard of any of that? He again, Man, it
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: must be five years ago, maybe more than that at
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: this point, just working from memory. It was Orlando, Florida
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: ICP conference. Yeah, you you said something really important, Joe,
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: psychedelic assisted therapist. What what medicalizing a schedule one substance?
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: What you know? How is this even possible? But the
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: story gets even more interesting. He gives me his card
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: and he says, contact me. All right, what the heck
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: is going on here? At this point, I'm already telling
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: my current my retired chief what's going on. I'm meeting
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: these people, and Maps gets me into one of the
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: first MDMA assisted Therapist trainings, a cohort of people that
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: were going to that they trained on how to do
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: this methodology with people, so you got to know what's
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: going on, right, it's a it's a. I mean, when
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: someone's on MDMA, they're you know, they're different, and you
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: got to hold that. You got to hold that. But
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: not only did they do that, Maps contacts me and says,
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: we might be able to get you into a federally
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: sanctioned research protocol as a healthy normal because I'm an
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: example of a healthy normal right where you're going to
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: be able to experience MDMA because they think that it's
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: important for the therapists to know what m dm A does.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: So I mean, really, I I go back to my
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: police chief and I say, Chief, I'm not only going
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: to be able to be trained as an m d
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: M A assist the therapist to help people with PTSD,
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: because it matters to me, right, what are cops doing
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: to themselves?
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: They're blowing their heads off right, right. The suicide rate
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: and cops is two to three times higher than the
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: rate in civilians. More cops are dying by suicide by
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: the barrel of their own guns than attack on the street. Right.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: The way the media is portraying everything that that that's
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: not getting out there, right, So MDMA can help with that.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: I'd say we're in an epidemic of suicide in first responders.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: If that's the numbers, No, yeah, for sure, right, yeah,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: and and and and we've seen Joe, you, I've seen this.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: You've had guests on that talk about this. You've seen
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: what the government allows when we're in an epidemic. Yeah,
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: radical measures, radical measures. Not when it comes to compounds
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: on Schedule one, why.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: Well, because it's federally scheduled one, it's supposed to have
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: no medical use whatsoever. And then the most dangerous and
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: addictive of compounds, that's right.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: May I say something about that? It's a lie?
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: What's certainly a lie.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: Certainly a lie. And I need everybody to hear that
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: because men and women are dying and suffering needlessly at
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: the level of an epidemic, and we are upholding a lie.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: I think the problem is politically, it's very difficult to
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: say what you're saying if you are anyone who is
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: running for office or anyone who's currently seeking reelection, right
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: because it carries with this taboo, this narrative that has
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: existed since the nineteen seventies that these are drugs that
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: are ruining people's lives, and it's a it's gonna waste
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: You're just gonna waste away, You're just escaping reality. They're
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: for weak people, they're for losers and addicts.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: You couldn't have summed up the problem better nicely done.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: It's a public narrative that's out there that unfortunately, it's
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: going to take a long time to turn that battleship around.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: So I think what you're helping with is that I
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: am asking for the politicians who can't speak up to
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: help make safety for those of us who either can
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: or want to. I'm asking for their help because I'm
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: active law enforcement, and I got to tell you, do
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: know we're muzzled. We're muzzled. Not only are our mouths shut,
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: but our hearts are put in a cage.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Look how So what do you mean we can.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Law enforcement aspiring to build a career in the system
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: can't talk about this stuff. They not only can't talk
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: about this stuff, they can't do this stuff.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: The so.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: But what they can do is keep their mouth shut
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: until they get to the point where they put a
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: barrel of their gun in their mouth. Or they can
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: go buy a giant bottle of whiskey and drink themselves
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: into depression. Divorce, divorce, divorce, subclinical depression, anxiety, disordered, eating, disordered,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: sexual practices. Because you know, chronically activated autonomic nervous system,
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: what does that cause? Fight, flight, freeze, fawn, hyper sexuality?
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: I dropped the last step, right? What does that destroy.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: Everything?
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: It destroys everything, It destroys the human behind the badge.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, the issue is that police officers experience trauma
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: on a daily basis that most people can't even comprehend,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: and it's not discussed. All that's ever discussed at police
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: officers is when a cop does something bad.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: That's right. Let me paint a picture based on what
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: you just brought in. There's research out there that says
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: the amount of critical incident exposure in an average law
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: enforcement career is two hundred.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: I have two hundred murders, suicide, car accidents.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: Baby head crushed, Yeah, two hundred. Most civilians have five
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: critical incidents send people's lives sideways. So the first responder's
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: nervous system is a carrier of trauma at a level
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: unimaginable by most people, which is what you just brought
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: into this conversation. And then so you got the gasoline right,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: and you got the match. They fly off the handle
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: and everyone acts surprised. How could that happen? How did
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: that officer end up doing that? Because it's a known
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: risk of the job. You know, when we die five
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: to ten years after retirement. That's a dirty little secret.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: So you strive to get to retirement, you carry the
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: dark underbelly of society, and then you die five years
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: after you get out. There's no time to wait.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an unspoken trauma. It's an unspoken issue that
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: you know, was really exacerbated during this whole defund the
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: police shit that was going on on a few years back.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Then you've got the demoralization, you know, and the fact
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: that these people not only they're not appreciated, but then
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: they've been all turned into villains.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: It makes it worse.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I work with some really caring young people, men
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: and women, and the whole defund the police movement was
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: so hurtful. It was so hurtful. It hurt me watching
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: them have to come to work and see them take
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: the nine to one one calls for service and show
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: up and do their best, following the rules to make
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: sure that that family of that person is okay, and
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: then come back and feel unappreciated and not understood, not understood. Yeah,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: you know, heah.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: They were used as political poems and uh, you know,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: openly openly by politicians who are still in office. It
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: was pretty disgusting. Yeah, and just short sighted and a
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: complete lack of awareness of the difficulty of the job.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Because if you're around cops, if you know cops like,
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: it is an insane job. It's an insane job that
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: you're asking people, just regular people to go out and
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: do on a daily basis.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. You don't know what's going to happen.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: You don't know who you're interacting with, you don't know
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: if it's going to turn into a life or death situation.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: I see people try to paint the job as a
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: normal job, and it isn't. And someone's got to do
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: it right. Someone's got to do it because it's inherently
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: a part of human nature at times for confusion to
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: come through from misunderstanding that leads to violence to happen,
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: someone has to show up and handle that. It's not
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: a normal job. You know.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: So from your first introduction to this idea of psychedelic therapy,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: how long before you actually experience it and how long
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: before you actually help other people experience it? Okay, so
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: take us through. So you find out about this, you
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: bring it to the department. Yea, what was that like?
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, so it was very interesting. I mean, these
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: were all ideas that weren't even on my radar until
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: I met Rick at the Chiefs of Police conference. They
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: get on my radar and they fire me up because
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: this is what I want to do, right, because of
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: my history, I'm compelled to step in between warring parties
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: and get them to stop. Okay, we can touch upon
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: that if it fits into the conversation. And then Maps
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: is able to get me into this research protocol and
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: I'm able to get permission from my chief to experience MDMA.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: I have a mystical experience. I have a mystical experience
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: on film, the segment when I'm you can't make this
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: up when I take the blue pill, you know Morpheus
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: analogy there.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: You don't want to take the blue pill.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: The red one.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the red one is the one that loves to
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: see reality.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm flipping the collars.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: It was a blue.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Reality, right. And then yeah, but I experienced m d
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: m A on film. It makes it into Michael Pollins
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: how to How to Change Your Mind docuseries episode right,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: and and I have a mystical experience. So now I
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: go back and I'm like, chief, you know, uh what,
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: what the hell?
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Our men and women need access to this. If they needed,
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: they should have access to it. They still don't have access.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: This is where I'm going, This is where I'm going
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: with this. You heard about what happened with the FDA.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: The panel that was supposed to decide the final step
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: before medicalization was allowed said no to Rick.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah, what they said they wanted more tests.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, And I love that you did that because I
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: tend to have to correct people. It wasn't a no,
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: they said we're going to delay you and we want
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: another phase three clinical trial, right. But some of the
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: things that came up I want to talk about real
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: quick is they couldn't make sense of how good the
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: data was. What you're going to use that as a
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: reason to not go forward?
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Is that really what they said?
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: I believe that was part of the problem. Huh yeah,
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: I mean we can look this up, but I believe
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: that was part of the problem. They also couldn't make
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: sense of how do you make the prescription a drug
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: paired with therapy? They couldn't make sense of the therapy
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: part because it would be the first prescription of a
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: drug paired with therapy. That was the goal.
• 19:47
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• 20:28
  Speaker 1: month on the Visible plan. Don't think wireless can be
• 20:31
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• 20:40
  Speaker 1: dot com for planned features and network management details. Well,
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: and they're also an issue with doing double blind placeble
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: controlled studies because it's very clear whether or not you've
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: taken the drug.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: That's right, That's right. So here's what I want to
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: ask you about that, and I want to ask a
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: science about that. Is that a problem with the power
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: and magic of MPDA? Is that a problem with where
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: science is?
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Well, it's a perception problem, right, because obviously MDMA has
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: profound impacts on soldiers to PTSD. The studies have already
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: been very clear and MAPS has done an amazing job
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: and explaining all that. But the problem is a perception
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: issue and that this drug is also used by people
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: who go to raves and wind up dying of heat exhaustion,
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: you know, and people die because they hear they die
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: of an overdose, which really they died of fentanyl poisoning
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: because they're getting illegally sourced MDMA, which is probably not
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: even really MDMA. A lot of times it's amphetamines and
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: it's cut with fentanyl, and there's a lot of other
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: shit in it, and they wind up dying of an overdose.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: That's right. Look, you bring up you bring up something
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: called the challenge of accessing safe supply. Yeah, right, we
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: need to people need to check their drugs because because
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: the illicit supply isn't standardized, it isn't safe.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: But the real barrier is the fact that it's illegal.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: That's right. The problem is there is a demand, and
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: so when you have a demand and then you make
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: it illegal for people to access, then what happens is
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: outlaws step in and you get criminal organizations who sell
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: it and they don't give a fuck about you, and
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: they're used to killing people. They don't mind poisoning you,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: and they don't mind if they're selling you something that's
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: totally not what you're trying to get.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. And you know where I learned
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: about this. I think you'll get a kick out of this. Yeah,
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: my promotional books Studying to Become a Sergeant really Yeah,
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: they actually have an entire section on what prohibition of
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: alcohol costs.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: And yet nobody applies that to other substances.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: That's exactly what's kind of funny, it's kind of right,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: kind of funny, tragically fun tragically right. And and here's
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: the muzzle part. Why aren't officers allowed to talk about this?
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: Why aren't working officers allowed to talk about the problems
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: with the War on drugs and how it's being waged?
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Why in America?
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: Really, when you say aren't allowed to, is it because
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: it will hinder your career?
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: I think so.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: I think it's fear. I think it's programming. You mentioned
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: the programming from the Nixon time till now. Right, this
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: has prohibited stuff. We can't talk about it. Not only
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: can't we talk about it, but we can't think about
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: it because thinking leads to behaviors, and if those behaviors
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: are risky, outgoes your career.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, well, I think we're in a very unique time
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: now where the door is open. And credit to Rick Perry,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: former Republican governor Texas, who championed the IBGAIN initiative here,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: and it's now become a thing. They're going to start
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: doing that, which is amazing and so beneficial for soldiers
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: in particular people with extremesd and people that are suffering
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: from severe drug addictions and they don't understand why, and
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: they're just they're just fucked. A lot of soldiers and
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of you know, really traditionally right wing people
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: are getting involved in psychedelics. They're going to psychedelic retreats.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: A lot of other soldiers that have had positive experiences
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: and have gotten help or reaching out to their brothers
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: and sisters bringing them into these experiences. So instead of
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: this narrative that psychedelics are for hippies and losers with
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: no discipline, now you've got some of the most disciplined
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: human beings on earth who are seeking these things out
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: for help and realizing that there is strength in seeking help.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: It's it's not a weakness to take these things. And
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: these things are not drugs in the sense of something
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: that allows you to escape reality. They allow you to
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: see reality through a completely different lens and that can
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: heal you. This is not something that has been a
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: narrative before. This narrative is very recent. This narrative, particularly
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: among right wing people, among conservative people, among disciplined people,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: hard working, disciplined people. Now they're realizing, like, this is
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: a tool that's been denied us because of a corrupt government,
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: a corrupt government that was seeking to silence the civil
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: rights movement in the anti war movement in the nineteen seventies,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties, this was what this was all about.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: And we are still dealing with this shit sixty years later,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: which is really crazy.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: It is crazy.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: It's fucking crazy. It's so crazy because we know the
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: facts now, we know what started it, we know who
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: was involved, we know the conversations that they had, why
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: they did it in the first place, and yet the
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: public narrative is still the same. The public narrative is
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: still drug takers are undisciplined losers who are trying to
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: escape reality, and I don't want my kids doing drugs,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: and that same shit that you hear over and over
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: and over again.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. It's crazy and extremely tragic. And
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: let me take that narrative thread that you just brought
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: in and let's go all the way back to the
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: times when the Spanish were colonizing this country. It was
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: actually part of the program to destroy the medicine and women, medicine,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: men and medicine, women wisdom keepers, which directly connects, I
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: believe to the war on drugs that's.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Gone on forever, right, I mean, that's the Illucinian mysteries,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: the Romans silence that you go to Siberian Shaman, the Romans,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: I mean they were silenced by the powers that be
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: in those days. It's just always been the case where
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: people that take things that allow them to understand the
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: methods of control that are being inflicted upon them and
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: how to escape that. And then they get a bunch
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: of other people that follow them and they don't want
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: to listen to propaganda anymore. And then people go, hey,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: this is a real problem. What's the cause of this. Oh,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: it's these fucking dudes go to Ilissus and they figure
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: out life. We got to stop that, that's right, Yeah,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: we got to put a fucking kabash on that. And
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: then they spread all throughout the world to try to
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: do it. There it is, and they went into hiding.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Let's bring that threat all the way to the present.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: And I want to see if I can succeed at
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: making this point. And it has now hijacked law enforcement
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: it has hijacked law enforcement, and it moves law enforcement
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: away from protecting and serving life liberty, pursuit of happiness
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: in the First Amendment religious expression into industry interest profits
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: without us us even knowing it. I'm not pointing a
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: finger at any one law enforcement professional. I'm challenging people
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: to wake up to what's going on. Because when we
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: kick indoors and arrest black and brown people for having
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: a relationship with a plant like cannabis and charge them,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: put him in a cage and lock them up and
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: they weren't doing anything violent, we have to ask who
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: is this hurting? And I'm here to tell you it's
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: hurting them and.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Us for sure. For sure, because anyone who's a law
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: enforcement officer that's arresting someone for weed, they know that
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: they're not doing anything good.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Moral injury.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a moral injury on the person that's actually
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: being forced to re forced to enforce those laws. That's right,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: that's right, yeah, because you can't feel good about yourself
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: you're arresting some guy who's going to announce a weed
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: is sitting at home with his wife chilling. That's crazy.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: And that went on for decades in this country decades.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Well, it's still happening. Only somewhere around forty states have
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: recreationalized or medicalized. So we still have work to do.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: And if you look at the Drug Policy Alliance a
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: few years back, we could look this up. We're still
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: arresting in the hundreds of thousands of people, nonviolent marriorld.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Well, they're trying to go backwards in Texas. Yeah, the
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: lieutenant governor is trying to go backwards and he's against
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: the legalization, and so they're trying to ban all THC products.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: And it's completely inappropriate.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Well it's not just inappropriate, it's funded okay, Right, it's
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: funded by the alcohol lobby, and they know that they're
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: losing people from drinking alcohol.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: That's right. The numbers are already showing it. Yeah, they're
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: building up to a collapse. People are going to get
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: off the alcohol. They're not going to be able to
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: rely on the profits to be the same. I agree
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: with you. And then you know what else. Cannabis is
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: such a threat because it's a medicine that can help
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: with such a broad array of symptoms and challenges. What
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: a threat to pharma.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's definitely that one plant, one yeah, I know,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: and it's not just a threat to pharma. I mean,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you're aware of the original reason why it
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: was outlawed. Hit me, okay, remind me William randolph Hurst.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: So William randolf Hurst. So if you go back to
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties when alcohol prohibition ended, you have a
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: bunch of four spent officers that aren't doing anything anymore.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Then you have William randolph Hurst. And then there's a machine,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: an invention called the decordicator, and the decordicator allowed them
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: to effectively process hemp fiber. Hemp was always a very
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: difficult plant to process. And when Eli Whitney, Eli Whitney
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: created the cotton gin, so it was I think that
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: sounds right. When they created the cotton gin, now cotton
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: took over for hemp clothing. So cannabis hemp, you know
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: the term cannabis. That was what canvas was, so all paintings,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: the first draft the Declaration of Independence was made on
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: hemp paper. It's a superior textile, it's a superior paper.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: It's a commodity. You can take an acre of land
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: that you're using to grow trees on that you process
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: into paper and it'll take you years and years to
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: regrow the trees in order to have the same amount
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: of paper in that area. With hemp, it's instantaneous, almost.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: It grows very quickly, and within a few months you
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: have these plants again. You harvest the stalks, you run
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: it through the decordicator. So in nineteen whatever it was,
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: nineteen thirty something cover of Popular Science magazine Hemp the
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: new billion dollar crop because of this invention. So this
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: invention was gonna because hemp makes superior clothes. I have
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: a Hemp jiu Jitsu gee that I got from this
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: company called dat Soora. It's fucking indestructible. My cotton geez
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: they rip apart all the time. They're good for a
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: year or two and then they tear and you got
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: to buy a new one, or you just show up
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: a class with a fucked up gee, which a lot
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: of people do. Hemp gee's are way better. They're just
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: far superior Hemp paper. You grab it and you pull out,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: you tear it. You're like, this is crazy. It's so
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: much stronger than regular paper. It's a superior product. So
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: William Randolph Hurst, who didn't just own Hurst Publications, he
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: didn't just own this news empire. He also owned paper mills,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: so he also owned forests that he was growing trees in.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: He recognized this threat from this new industry, and so
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: to combat that threat, he starts putting out propaganda pieces.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: And then they coined the term marijuana. So marijuana was
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: originally a term, a slang term for a wild Mexican tobacco.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: It had nothing to do with cannabis, cannabis which had
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: been used for thousands of years, in hemp, which had
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: been used for thousands of years. So then they start
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: printing these stories that blacks and Mexicans were taking this
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: new drug and raping white women. And then you have
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: the reefer Madness films and all these propaganda films that
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: show young people taking a smoke of marijuana and losing
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: their mind. So people act quickly and they pass laws,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: not even knowing that they're outlawing hemp, that they're stopping
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: this new drug, because most people are unaware of it. Clearly,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: this is the time before the internet, very difficult to
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: access information and understand exactly what's going on, right, so
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: they hoodwink the entire world. So Harry Anslinger, William Randolph hurst.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: They all conspired to stop a commodity, and that's what
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: hemp was. It had nothing to do with the psychoactive
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: form of THHC. It had everything to do with hemp
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: as a commodity that was threatening to the threat to
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: the businesses, only justus. And to this day, you can
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: make hemp crete. It's a superior building material. It's flame resistant,
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: it's lighter, it's stronger, it lasts longer. You can build
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: houses with it, you can make clothes with it. Hemp
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: oil is hemp seeds. Not only are they good for you,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: they contain all the amino acids. It's a superior protein source.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: It's like hemp protein powder is fantastic for you. It's
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: like really good stuff in so many different ways. And
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: they put the kabash on that in the nineteen thirties,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: and that ninety fucking years later is still this anchor
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: around our next that we're carrying.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: It's still in place.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Had one asshole, one asshole in the nineteen thirties who
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: didn't want to compete with hemp and had this incredible
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: power because he owned the newspapers. He started this all.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, I'm tracking you ever.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: Seen that article. Pull up that article Hemp the new
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: billion dollar crop, because it's wild to watch because this machine,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: this decordicator before that, it was really it was brutal,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: back breaking work to take the hemp fiber and break
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: it down because it's such a durable plant. Like if
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: you ever pick up a hemp stock, a hemp stock
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: that would this is a mammoth tusk. But this is heavy.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: But if you had a hemp stock that was this size,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: it would be incredibly light like balsa wood, but hard
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: like oak. It's it's like an alien plant. It's different
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: than it sounds everything else. So here it is the
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: new billion dollar crop. American farmers are promised a new
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: cash crop with an annal value of several hundred billion dollars,
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: all because of a machine that has been invented which
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: can solve a problem more than six thousand years old.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: It is hemp, a crop that will compete with other
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: American products. Instead, it will displace imports of raw materials
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: and manufactured products produced by underpaid What does that mean,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: Cooley and peasant labor, and will provide thousands of jobs
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: for American workers throughout the land. So that was the
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: machine underneath it. That's the decordicator, and that's this new
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: machine that they invented. And this is what it's all about.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with marijuana. Was a real problem.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: We were losing people. Now people have been smoking marijuana
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: and taking marijuana in edible form and you know the
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: sadus and taking hashish that people have been using it
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: for thousands and thousands of years without problems. Can you
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: abuse it? Of course, you can abuse cheeseburgers too. I
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: was just gonna say, yeah, but I don't think you
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: should shut down burger king to be able to get
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: a fucking cheeseburger if you want. And there's a lot
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: of things that people can abuse. You can abuse every
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: single thing. You can abuse cake, you can abuse everything.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Human beings tend to abuse things. That doesn't mean that
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: they shouldn't be allowed to use it. It's like a hammer.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: You could build a house with a hammer, or you
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: can hit yourself in the dick if you're fucking crazy.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean we should outlaw hammers. That's right. There
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: is a use for these things, and they It requires discipline,
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: and it requires an understanding of what the thing is. Well,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: when you turn that thing into a schedule one substance
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: when everybody knows that's not true, especially when you have
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: a schedule one substance that is illegal, when there's things
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: like alcohol that are totally legal that I support. You
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: should be able to drink. I don't I want a bar,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: I don't care. I don't drink anymore, but I feel
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: like you should be able to drink. I drink most
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: of my life.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: Drink if you want to say the same thing about
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: But it's not good for you, Right, it's a depressant,
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: that's a carcinogen. Again, when it's also fun, Right, it's
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: also fun and drenk Gipsy's fun.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: But the point is, we need freedom, and you need
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: the freedom to be able to explore these things and
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: find out what's right for you and wrong for you.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: And you need the freedom to be able to run
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: studies and get accurate information in terms of dosages and
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: side effects and what sort of genetic issues that certain
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: people might have that made them that make them more
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: inclined to be addicted to alcohol or addicted to cannabis
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: or whatever their issue is, whether it's psychological or biological.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: We need to have information and to put a blockade
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: on this in the form of prohibition is stupid. And
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: the fact that we're doing it in twenty twenty five
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: with all the information that we have available today, we
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: have an abundance of information.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: That's right, That's right. Well, look, I think it was
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: as you said, there was intentionality behind what was done.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: And when you don't have fifty years of creating an
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: evidence base, you have a weaker argument for decriminalization, right,
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: And that was intentional. Yes, that was intentional for sure, Right, Joe.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: I mean you brought this up right, highly addictive, non
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: known medical use. That's a lie. We can go through
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: the list of Schedule one and we can point out
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: which one it's a lie about which one is actually
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: anti addictive. You take psilocybin and you have an experience
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: with psilocybin magic mushrooms, you don't want to drink, right.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: We don't know why we have we haven't been able
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: to study that, right, iyebo gain you want to reprieve
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: from your opioid use disorder, ig ibogaine, I'll give it
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: to you three four months. What's that about?
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's also one experience has an eighty percent success
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: rate eighty percent of the people don't go back to opiates,
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: right with two experiences in the high nineties.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: So look, look, those numbers are staggering. Science can't make
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: sense of it. We're in an epidemic. We got to
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: slow down, watch out for the risks. We need to
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: study these things more. I can respect that, but there's
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: harm in not allowing access to we got to talk about.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: You just have to make sense of it in a
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: time where things are prescribed and you can get them
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: for from a doctor that we absolutely know or addictive
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: and highly damaging and kill people. So make sense of
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: it to me, if you're if there's something Cannabis is
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: the easy one, right because it doesn't kill anybody, literally
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: doesn't kill anybody. The LD fifty rate for cannabis is
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: fucking bananas.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: You'd have to it's not even physically possible to consume
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: enough to kill you.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Same thing with silo simon, Yes, right, exactly, there's this
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: research study. It's you'd have to.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: Eat a mushroom the size of this fucking table. You
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: wouldn't physically be able to consume it. If that even does, right,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: that's if that even killed And that's LD fifty. That
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: would be fifty percent of the population would dive an
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: overdose from that, that's right, And you wouldn't be able
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: to consume it physically, you wouldn't be able to fit
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: it into your body enough to kill you.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: And then on top of that, Joe, we have the
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: federal government giving permission to certain groups of people to
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: access plants, cacti, fungi, animal secretions with permission and not
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: others under a religious context. So is it dangerous? Is
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: it not? Is it a sacred sacrament? Is it not?
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Brazilian churches that are taking ayahuasca.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: And again we're talking, we talk. I don't want to
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: talk poorly about alcohol. I drink alcohol. I'm not talking
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: poorly about these people. Should go get their rights right,
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: more power to them, But you can't have it both ways.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: Not them, I'm talking to the government, right.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: You have to make logical sense as to why you're
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: imposing these laws and then imprisoning people and taking away
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: their freedom for not listening to you, because you don't
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: make any sense. And here's another part of the problem.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: A vast majority of the people that are pushing for
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: these laws and want these people to be locked up
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: have not had these experiences themselves, and that's a part
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: of the problem.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: That's a big point.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: They don't know what they're talking about. They don't know
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: what these experiences are.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: These drugs are going to ruin your mind? Are you
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: fucking sure? Because I don't think they are. I don't
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: think you're correct. I think they open your mind up
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: to new possibilities and expand your consciousness in a way
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: that I don't think is available without them.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: I agree it isn't available without them, and that was
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: intentionally blocked out. So you know that we're hearing the
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: stories about the really brilliant tech people, right you dig
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: deep enough, they've had some experiences with these things.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: Yea, A large number of them, right, and still do
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: a large number of them. Right.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So these things that are so dangerous or are
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: we blocking up blocking out certain groups from having access?
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: And this is one of my primary things that I
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: try to talk about. I want the audience that's in
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: law enforcement to go why why is this the case?
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: Why do I feel uncomfortable not talking about this? Why
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: do I feel uncomfortable saying that this sergeant who might
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: be hurting needs access? Say it bring it up, talk right,
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: go into your power.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: But people are scared of losing their career, right imagine yeah,
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: for talking about something and losing their career because most
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: people are ignorant of it. That's right, Yeah, that's right.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: And the only way that that's going to change is
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: you and I and other people to continue to have
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: these public conversations where more people hear it. And there's
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: I guarantee you there's people listening to this right now
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: that have never heard this before, never consider this before.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: And am I wrong? Do I have these deep held
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: beliefs that are completely ignorant? And why why do I
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: have these beliefs? What started them? Why? Why why do
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: I have this in my mind? As this is what
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: this stuff is exactly. And there's a lot of people
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: out there that are stone cold, sober discipline. People think
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: that's the only way, this is the way.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, And you know what, maybe this
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: is the way. That's your way. We're human beings. We're
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: called to create an artistic expression of a unique life.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: To me, that's what the divine is commanding. That's what
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: the divine gets to experience. The more of us who
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: get to live and be our authentic selves internally and
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: expressing them outwardly. The more the divine gets to experience
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: unique difference.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: Well, the more possibilities there are for creativity, the more
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: possibilities there are for people to rethink their lives to
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: get on a better path. There's a lot that people
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: are missing just because you've been hoodwinked and you've been
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: led into this false narrative.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: That it's also there's a problem with the term drugs
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: because just I hear drug, I hear drugged, I hear
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: someone who's all fucked up and doesn't know what's going on.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: How are you putting all these things under the same blanket,
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: including nicotine and caffeine and things that people use on
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: a daily basis. These are all drugs, that's right. And
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: then you have cannabis in there, and you also have
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: methamphetamine in that category. How do you have cannabis and
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: methamphetamine in the same thing. How do you have psilocybin
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: and heroine in the same group of things? That's this
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: is crazy, right? How do you have industrial opiates? Yeah,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: you're all in that same category.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: We've been stripped of our power to define what medicine is.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, right, yeah.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Have you heard people say community is medicine, Joy is medicine?
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, for sure it is? Right.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well ask a hardcore Western science model, is that medicine?
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: And that go? Well, you got to show us the evidence.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, While there is evidence that like loneliness is
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: like worse than cigaret, it's smoking, that's right, in terms
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: of like how long you live, that's right, Yeah, that's right.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: Well we can show that, right. But is community medicine?
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: I say it is?
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: But this the point I'm trying to make is how
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: did we lose the power to define what medicine is
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: for ourselves?
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: Right, Joy is medicine. Community is medicine. And there's the right.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: Maybe the term medicine is the wrong term. Maybe is
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: good for.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: You, sure, but but why define medicine in such a
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: rigid way? Also, why only allow one methodology to create
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: an evidence base for that medicine. Let me give you
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: an example, and this is Paul Stammets. I listened to
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: him talk at Psychedelic Science twenty twenty five where he
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: said we should see the world through two eyes, Western
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: science and indigenous wisdom, right, and they don't have to
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: be attacking one another, right, right, the time of extractionary
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: capitalistic relationships with the living planet might have to be
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: coming to an end. And what's going to replace it reciprocity, stewardship,
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: care community, you know, right, these two eyes they need
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: to be in the same being. They need to watch.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: It really makes you wonder what would the world look
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: like had they not placed that sweeping Psychedelic Act of
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy and then impose those standards on most of
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: the rest of the world as well, What would the
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: world look like? It would be radically different.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: I believe that it would be radically different.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: Well, this is what they were scared of. The difference
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: between the nineteen fifties and the nineteen sixties culturally is clear.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: It's evident in everything. It's evident in the music, it's
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: evident in the artwork, the films. It's evident in the cars,
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: the design of the automobiles. Like, everything changed, and it
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: changed because the culture was accepting psychedelics. It was a
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: big part of it. It was LSD and psilocybin and
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: marijuana and all these different things these people were experimenting with.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: And then out of that you get Jimmy Hendrix. You know,
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: you get this wild new form of expression that was
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: radically different than music that appeared before that.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: They were scared of that, That's right.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: And you know I just made a comment about my
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: belief system to you. Who gets to experience and be
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: with that or in that and of that? That's the
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: divine that's Jimmy Hendrix outside of the box. Yeah right,
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: that level of artistic expression. I think that's our purpose, right,
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: And you're right, we took that away, We pushed it
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: into the underground, and then we hijacked our law enforcement
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: to show up as inforces, kick indoors and take people
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: to cages.
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, members of our own community.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: That's right. And who did we hurt our community and
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: our law enforcement? So this is what I want to
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: be clear on here. I want law enforcement to ask
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: why why why are we in this current moment? Why
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: are we still arresting people for wanting a relationship with plants, cacti, fungi,
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: animal secretions? Why are we protecting and serving our community
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: members or industry interests. When you start asking these questions,
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: think shake for me. They did. They made me into
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: an activist, not only an advocate, but an activist. So
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: I got behind Massachusetts ballot Question four in a very
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: public way, that was to decriminalize the psychedelics and create
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: healing centers in Massachusetts. Forty three forty four percent of
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: adults voted yes. But it wasn't enough. It wasn't enough. Well,
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: listen to what I just found out before I came
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: to your show today. The Psycheatric Society of Massachusetts just
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: endorsed or got behind three psilocybin bills. They didn't get
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: behind the ballot question which failed, but they're now getting
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: behind decriminalizing psilocybin measures that are at the state House.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: It's great.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, priss is being made. It happens at a snail's pace,
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: and it happens through backbreaking labor from people like you
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: and Paul Stemmett's and Rick Doblin and so many more
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: who are doing the lord's work literally. But this is
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: it's just a frustrating thing for a lot of people
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: that know the truth behind this that how many people
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: it can help, and then how many people who are
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: being damaged by these unfair, unjust, immoral, and illogical laws.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah they are, that's right, that's right. Yeah, and if
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: we bend it, if we bend it, if you take
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: on one end the enforcers right, which I believe are
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: called to be peace officers and guardians, and the other
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: end the civilians, which are being split up into groups
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: and pitted against one another, and you bend them, everybody's
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: getting hurt and trauma load is exponentially growing, Yeah, exponentially growing.
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: And what is the media like to put out there?
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: Not media like this, but standard media. The algorithm is
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: based on on hate, fear, division, isolation.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: Well, the algorithm is based on your interaction, and unfortunately,
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: people tend to lean towards those things. That's the problem.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: The algorithm is not evil. The problem is human beings
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: can be easily manipulated by their own ideas and these
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: ideas that they have, and this inclination to pay more
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: attention to things that outrage.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: You and fear and fear right.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: Things that cause rage and fear and distrust. The unfortunately
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: things that you hate, is that those are the things
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: you pay attention to.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. I mean, we're biologically created to
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: worry about things that we fear. Right, and logically, I'll
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: give you an example from my community. I think about
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: this all the time. There's about twenty twenty five thousand
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: people in my community. Every day they wake up, they
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: go to work, they interact with one another, and go
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: to bed. Twenty twenty five thousand people with one or
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: two shoes that the cops have to go to. That's amazing.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: People are wildly nice, yeah for the most part, y, Yeah,
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: and in control and okay, yeah, But the.
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: Problem is cops deal with the very small percentage of
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: people that aren't there.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: It is. There's this research article called the clinician's delusion.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: I call it the enforces delusion, where your perspective gets
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: completely warped based on the people that you continually interact with.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: So when you're continually showing up and helping people in
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: their worst moment, you think everybody's their worst moment all
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: the time. Of course, right, that's a that's a box.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: That's a dark box, the only terrible box to.
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: Be in, and to require officers to be able to
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: escape that and have objectivity is crazy, Like how how
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: but through what mechanism of the human mind allows you
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: to ignore all the evidence that you see on a daily.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: Your evidence right? Right, that critical incident amplified data set.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: You're that that activated nervous system. It actually makes you
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: rely on your biases more instead of being able to
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: check your biases. It it actually listens to your biases
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: more so. So an officer now is taught try to
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: slow down if you can, why so you can breathe,
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: Why so you can check your bias before you act, right,
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: because you're amped up. The quicker you act, the safer
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: you'll be. And that's through that automatic process near the
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: brain stem not here.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's a dark predicament because there's
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: a lot of people that are gonna fall victim before
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: anything gets changed.
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: I agree, I agree. And and you know, Joe, when
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: back to that FDA committee that delayed everything with MDMA,
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: I ended up really really sad for like three months
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: because of what you just said. A lot of people
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: who will benefit from MDMA are not going to be
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: able to acces access, not for a month or two,
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: for years, for years, at a cost that could hurt
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: a person like Rick Doblin and Maps and Licos and
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: the philanthropists that help them get to this point. That's
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: how expensive it is.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then the cost of human life and the
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: cost of human life is compounded every year. That's right,
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: and all the people they interact with the butterfly effect
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: of that.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, that's right. And let's let's take that
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: thread back to what you said. Could you imagine the
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: world we could live in if these things were available
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: to people so that they could heal, so that they
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: could dream, so that they can become their own versions
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: of Jimmy Henry.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I know, it's really crazy when you
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: think about it, that one president and one administration changed
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: the course of civilization because they wanted control. They wanted
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: to stop the anti war movement in the civil rights movement,
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: and that's the fact. That's really what happened.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: And I like that statement course of civilization because they
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: succeeded at taking it on a road show into other
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: countries through international treaties. Yes, you know, this brings something up.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: I was blessed with being able to go and speak
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: on a panel at the United Nations and it was
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: put together by an organization called LEAP Law Enforcement Action Partnership.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: I want to give a shout out to Diane Goldstein,
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: amazing executive director of a wonderful organization of law enforcement
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: that are trying to change these issues. And we spoke
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: about access for psychedelics for law enforcement. And I was
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: able to call out Schedule one at the United Nations
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: at the Seat Commission on Narcotic Drugs and say, we
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: need to do away with the schedule. And here's the
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: two things that I found out. I wanted to get
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: to this point. The World Health Organization is now recognized
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: that Schedule one is a fraud. It's fake, it's unscientific.
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: They're going to try to create their own right. And two,
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: I got to see how they spend all day on
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: a treaty focusing on one word across like forty countries,
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: whether they agree on that one word or not make
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: up a word. Are they going to allow harm reduction
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: into the treaty?
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: All day?
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: Twelve hours later they're asking this country if it's okay,
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: and that country if it's okay. I went, oh my god,
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: you said snail's pace. I think you said snail space.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: This is even slower than a snail's pace. It's painful. Change.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: Having it happen is painful. It's incredible.
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's well, it's what happens when people once people
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: have laws and they enforce those laws, and someone comes
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: along and says those laws are unjust. It's very difficult
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: to get back rights that you've already lost, very difficult
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: once they're lost. And this is like, what's really obvious
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: about the nineteen seventies Schedule one Act because it's like,
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: we're dealing with the same issue all these years later,
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: but it's not the nineteen seventies, right, So we have
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: all the access to the data now instantaneously. You can
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: pull it up on chat, GPT, Yeah, you know, like
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: right now, instantaneously, So there's no excuse for it. But
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: yet it's still difficult to get these laws changed, insanely difficult.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: It takes so much time.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: Well, so the system that we have takes the power
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: and then it doesn't want to give it back. This
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: is what I'm here, and then you've got to fight
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: to give it back. But you did indicate something which
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: I agree with. Things are speeding up because of technology.
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: I mean technology is involved in this show and us
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: being able to talk to each other. This is a
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: miracle in and of itself. People being able to share
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: ideas at a lightning pace, influencing one another. That's a miracle.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: In and of itself. But I want to bring up
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: a point. Maybe we can explore this together. People are
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: taking back their power and recognizing that the founding documents
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: of this country are designed to protect the life, liberty,
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: pursuit of happiness, and religious expression of the individual human being.
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: It's the most radical thing ever. Yeah, it is. It's
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: a sacred establishment that we're working under. But people don't
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: realize that the individual, when they truly, sincerely believe what
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: they're doing in this country, can do it as long
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: as it doesn't harm another human being. It's that simple.
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what it should be. Yeah, let's talk about that.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: How do we get to the point where people realize
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: that that's the way it should be. We wake the
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: enforces up, We get the politicians to help create safe
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: space for the exploration of these topics. We meet up
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: in conversation and break bread in safety.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: Well, I think the big thing is public perception. Public
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: perception moves all those other things, because then people will
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: contact politicians and respond by not voting for them or
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: voting people out that do have Like this Lieutenant governor,
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: He's politically in deep water because so many people have
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: reacted so negatively to this draconian attempt to ban all
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: THHD products where people are like why, like what are
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: you doing and what are you being paid by? Like
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: what lobbies are enforcing this idea? Like what where is
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: this coming from? Right? Right?
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: So it's going to weaken his position.
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think it's going to weaken his career
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: and rightly show rightly, so it should. He's on the
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: wrong side of history.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: There it is, there, it is.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And the public perception has changed, has changed pretty radically,
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: and I credit the Internet with that, because over the
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: last twenty years you've seen this massive shift in this
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: idea that psychedelics are dangerous, you could lose your mind
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: to Hey, that's how my uncle quit smoking, you know. Hey,
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: that's how my aunt got off of opiates. Hey, that's
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: you know, and everyone knows somebody that's had positive experiences
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: that was, you know, deeply depressed and now's a different
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: person and there's so much happier and healthier because of it.
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: And so it's the narrative publicly has shifted, has shifted,
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: and a lot of it is because of conversations, and
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: a lot of it is because of podcasts. A lot
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: of is access to information. There's plenty of online documentaries
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: about it. Now, that's right, Yeah, that's right.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: And you know, Joe, I want to give credit to
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: the courageous people who are the carriers of this knowledge
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: and wisdom by experimenting, learning, realizing. Right, this is the
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: hero's journey, right, going into the darkness, like metaphorically and
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: literally into the underground, and coming back with the bounty,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: the realization, right, the gold and sharing it.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and having the courage.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: That's a courageous act.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: Well, especially if you're in a business like yourself, like
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: law enforcement, you know where it's like that's a forbidden topic.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, that's right. And you know, I
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: was able to access MDMA and I had a numinous experience.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: I felt like I was surrounded by love. I was
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: gifted a gratitude that was big enough to hold everything
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: that went into who I am in the present moment.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: Let me explain that real quick. If I accept myself
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: helf holy Holy completely, I have to accept my light
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: and dark aspect as well. I have to accept my
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: traumas as well. I have to expect my lineage's history
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: as well, in its entirety I'm not saying something radical.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: There's been books written about this by smarter people than I.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: MDMA helped me access that, right. I've experienced ketamine. Ketamine,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: I say it was like a luscious massage of my soul.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: I felt like the energy of my being was traveling
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: in and out of my body, and I had three
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: energetic streams traveling with me, my martial arts instructor, periodically,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: my wife, and God on Ketymine. It was unbelievable. I
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: mean streams like energetic streams, so on Ketymine. I felt
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: like there was a bit of a disembodiment that occurred, right,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: And we can label what that disembodiment is. It's a
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: disassociative anesthetic. People say it feels like their spirit, soul
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: or identity disconnected from their body. I had that happen,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: but the energy wasn't just one. I had remembrances of
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: these three. I felt like I needed to give gratitude
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: to God. I felt like the presence of my wife
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: was with me, and my martial arts instructor as well,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: Doreen Cogniandro and her energetic Their energetic streams were going
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: in and out of my body, and I could remember
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: such joyous thoughts associated to them. It was like a
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: massage to my spirit, you know. And the thoughts associated
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: with that massage, and that peace and that sense of
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: safety was there. Ketamine lifts suicidality in minutes. It just
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: became a medicine approved for depression. Why that's weird? Why
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: did that just happen? I don't know.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: It's been going on for quite a bit, right, I mean,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: I know people in Los Angeles were doing it a
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: decade ago.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: Well here's the thing's let's broaden that. How long were
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: the people partying with it?
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: Right? I don't know. I did. I knew of a
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: guy who had a problem with it. He was an
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: MMA fighter. He got addicted to ketymine, and I remember
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: a friend of mine went to visit him in a
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: rehab center and he was all fucked up. But that
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: was the narrative that he was doing ketamine. I was like, Oh,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: he's doing a tranquilizer like this was nineteen nineties, like
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: late nineties.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, you can get addicted.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: Is addicted?
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: You can phys addicted to a ketemine, not like an opiate.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: Is it a psychological addiction or is it a physical addiction.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: There might be a combination. I don't want to purport
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: to speak about it scientifically too much, but I've heard
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: there can be a compulsion and it can kind of
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: it can hurt your bladder if you go overboard.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: I know a lot of people in the Austin area
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: use it recreationally. We actually had a girl go into
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: a k hole at my club. She was in the
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: middle of the comedy club.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: Just yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean that's full disembodiment, right,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: you're in another place. Yeah, and your somatic self has
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: to be kept.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: Well, they're doing a nasal spray, so they're like doing
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: it throughout the day.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: That's the prescription I forget from what company for depression?
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: M m.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So you could kind of double pump and for
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: sure go a little overboard. Yeah yeah, do it all
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: day long if you want, if you want to. Yeah,
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: that's a problem with well, that's a problem with everything, right,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: you know, it's a problem with any I mean, if
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: you really need adderall, you have like chronic fatigue, and
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: adderall is the only thing that lifts you out of that.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: What's the stop you from taking two pills?
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you did the reall that's right, or even
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: coffee right, double espresso can become a quad. Yeah, then
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: you're drinking six.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: Oh, I know a lot of people are. I mean,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of addicted to caffeine. I quit it when
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: I was on my vacation. I was on vacation for
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: ten days and I didn't have any coffee, any caffeine
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: at all for five six days. And I was like, oh,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: I sleep so much better, I feel so much better.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: But I feel like when it comes to conversations, it's
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: like I lean on it. I lean on caffeine, lean
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: on it to get me going.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: I'm a happier person on caffeine. I really enjoy that substance.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: I like it. I just wanted to know that I
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: could stop taking it and it wouldn't be any problem.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: It was no problem at all.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: I stopped taking nicotine pouches and I stopped taking caffeine
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: for I stopped the nicotine pouches for ten whole days,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm fine, and I've stopped the
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: caffeine for five or six days. Then I said, ah,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: I feel like having a cup of coffee, and I
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: limited myself to one cup of day.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I get I have a hard time coming off
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: of caffeine. But I get a headache, but I've done it. Yeah,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: I get headaches. That affects my mood a little bit.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: I like it. I like the caffeine.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't think it's overall detrimental. I don't think
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: it affects your judgment. I don't think it makes you
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: do anything squirrellly. Know, it just gives you a little
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: PEPSI up a little bit.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: I mean most of the world is having it in
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: the morning, yeah, right, and then most of the world
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: is having to drink at night.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But you know, this is also the art argument
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: for coca leaves, because coca leaves apparently is a superior stimulant.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: It's just they chew it, and they chew coca leaves,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: and this is something that you know, farmers and hardworking
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: people in South America have been doing forever, that's right,
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: and unfortunately somebody figured out how to synthesize it and
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: turned into cocaine and then it became illegal.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: Illegal.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, now you can't get because if you get just
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: coca leaves and just chew on coca leaves in America,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: I mean maybe that's superior to coffee.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: And we don't know because we can't try exactly, and
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: that that is the block of experimentation. That's unjust right.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: You know what's interesting about cocaine is it's medically appropriate.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: I think they use it for eye surgery.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's medical uses for it.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: So I can't off the top of my head, remember
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: if it's on Schedule one. I don't think it is
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: cocaine's and a schedule one. Really, I mean we could
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: look it up because it's interesting. Well, here's the thing.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: If it can be used for eye surgery, right, so
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: it would be interesting to see.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so is it like a numbing agent? Is that
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: what it is?
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: They've just I've heard that they've realized before it was
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: it became a big issue that it's safe for eyeball. Yeah,
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: I mean agent.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: Well, I know there's medical cocaine. I do know that.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: I just don't know what the applications are. Yeah, you
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: know the number one manufacture of it Coca Coca Cola.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: They still use the Coca lea for flavor for Coca Cola, but.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: Like they shut down the cocaine molecule something.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: Extracted and they use it to produce medical grade cocaine.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: Interesting, and then and then some thing of that still
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: gets into co flavor.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: Yes, what's in coca? I guess it's the flavonoids. That's
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: what's in Coca Cola. And it used to be cocaine
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: was in Coca Cola. I would like to go back
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: and try some of that. I like to go like
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: what was that, like, like how much cocaine was in there?
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: You think they have original recipe coke bottles at the factory.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: With cocaine and coca.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, what year was cocads?
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: What year did they Let's find out what year they
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: took cocaine out of Coca Cola, because I remember the
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: whole story for I don't remember exactly the details of
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: like how cocaine was in Coca Cola for the first place.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: But cocaine used to be prescribed nineteen twenty nine, so
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: nineteen oh three, fresh coca le's were removed from the formula.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: After nineteen oh four, instead of using fresh cocales, coc
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: Cola started using spent leaves, the leftovers of the cocaine
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: extraction process with trace levels of cocaine, and since then,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: by nineteen twenty nine, they viewed cocaine free. So in
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: nineteen oh three they started removing cocaine, but they're still
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: using cocaine free coca leaf. Actually, yes, yes, And they're
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: the only company I believe that's allowed to do that.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: I think they're grandfathered in. And how did who invented
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: coca cola with cocaine find that out? Like, what's the story?
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: What is the story of cocaine in coca cola? Okay,
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: Pemberton called for five ounces of coca leaf per gallon
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: of syrup, a significant dose. In eighteen ninety one, Candler
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: claimed his formula, altered extensively from Pemberton's, originally contained only
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: a tenth of this amount, so it used to be
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: really juicy. Coca Cola once contained and estimated nine milligrams
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: of cocaine per glass. For comparison, a typical dose or
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: a line of cocaine is fifty to seventy five milligrams,
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: so it was like a mile pick me up nine milligrams.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: After nineteen oh four, instead of using fresh leaves, coca
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: Cola start using spent leaves. Today that extract is prepared
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: at a Stephan Company Steppan Company plant in Maywood, New Jersey,
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: the only manufacturing plant authorized by the federal government to
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: import and process coca leaves, which it obtains from Peru
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: and Bolivia. Stepan Company extracts cocaine from the leaves, which
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: it sells to malancroct the only company in the United
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: States licensed to purify cocaine for medical use.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: Wild excuse me, intellectual beverage, intellectual, valuable brain tonic, A
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 3: valuable brain tonic, A cure for all nervous affections, affections, sick, headache, neurologica,
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: whatever that is.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: Hysteria, melancholy, et cetera. The particular peculiar flavor of coca
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: cola delights every palate. It is dispensed from the soda
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: fountains in the same manner as any of the fruit syrups. Wow.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: What an advertisement.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: Wow. I other like to go back and try that.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: I'd have to go back to nineteen hundred and get
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: a glass and see what's up.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: You hear the pop in the bubbly pour it over
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: ice right out of the fountain. Yeah, well that's a
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: beautiful advertisement. Wow.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: Long after the syrup ceased to contain any significant amounts
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: of cocaine, in North Carolina, dope remained a common colloquialism
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: for Coca cola, and dope wagons were trucks that transported it.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: Wow, it must have been good.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: It must have been real good. It must have been
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: real good, like just a little bit of a juice.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: The colon nut colon nuts for caffeine. Cola nut acts
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: as a flavoring and the original source of caffeine and
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: Coca cola, contains two to three point five percent caffeine
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: and has a bitter flavor. In nineteen eleven, the US
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: government sued the United States versus forty barrels and twenty
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: kegs of Coca Cola, hoping to force the Coca Cola
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: Company to remove caffeine from its formula. Interesting. That's interesting.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: Court found the syrup, when diluted as direct it would
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: result in a beverage containing one point two to one
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: grains seventy eight point four milligrams of caffeine per eight
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: fluid ounces. The case was decided in favor of Coca
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: Cola Company at the District Court, but subsequently, in nineteen twelve,
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: the US Pure Food and Drug Act was amended, adding
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: caffeine to the lifts of habit forming and deleterious substances
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: which must be listed on a product's label. In nineteen thirteen,
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: the case was appealed by a sixth Circuit in Cincinnati,
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: where the ruling was affirmed, but then appealed again in
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nineteen sixteen to the Supreme Court, where the
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: government effectively won as a new trial was ordered. The
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: company then voluntarily reduced the amount of caffeine in its
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: product and ordered offered rather to pay the government's legal
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: costs to settle and avoid further litigation.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: Wow, that was all over caffeine seventy.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: Eight milligrams per eight and now it's forty six per twelve.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, what is a red bull?
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: I was gonna say, what's in a monster?
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: Right? So let's let's find out how much caffeine is
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: in a monster? One of the things that monster. I
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: don't know if Monster does it, but some of these
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: companies do it. It's kind of tricky, by the way.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: I like Monster, I drink them all the time. When
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: I do the UFC. The problem is it'll say, like
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: two servings, who's split in a monster? With friends? You
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: have some eighty six? Yeah, and how many servings are
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: in a can of Monster. Well this is as per
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: serving does it say it in a can like when
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: you get a big old can, because they have big
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: cans the monster. I had a friend who was a
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: Mormon and he wasn't allowed to drink coffee, and that
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: motherfucker with pound energy drinks all day. I was like, hey, dude,
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: what are you doing.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: It's a gray area.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: A monster is Oh my god, what one forty for
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: zero sugar? A regular monster as one sixty one sixty.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: Mountain dew Rise has one eighty beyond raw lit that
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: is two fifty Bang with three hundred five hour energy
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: shots as two hundred. Holy shit, man, those little tiny
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: energy shots. Those five hour energy drinks has two hundred
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: milligrams of caffeine. Wow, Bang has three hundred Holy shit man.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: And Coca Cola led the battle. When was that nineteen
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: eleven or something some of those dates about caffeine. Yeah,
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: mount being in it.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Well, it's like people have always tried to control
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: other people for whatever reason, especially when the government has
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: the power to do it. For whatever reason. Human beings
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: really enjoy controlling other people. Yeah, they really do, and
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: once they have power, they really enjoy exercising that power.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: And keeping it and controlling it, not giving it back.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: And you got you gotta.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: Resist, Yeah, you do, you got to resist. But the
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: problem is, like legalizing these things would cause a big problem.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: It'd be a big problem if you just legalize them.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of people that who would never try
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: any illegal drug, who would try a legal drug. You know,
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: if you made heroin, cocaine, you know, fill in the blank,
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: all all the different substances, psychedelic and otherwise, if you
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: made them all legal, you're gonna have a bunch of
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: people that are going to have problems with these things
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: that wouldn't have problems with them normally. So there would
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: be a period of time where it would cause damage,
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: and that would be really problematic for politicians, lawmakers, anybody
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: who enforced these ideas. You know, they'd be blood is
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: on your hands. It's like, but this infantelization of human beings,
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: like turning them into babies that need to be control
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: rolled by the state, that's the problem. And we're in
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: this problem, and the only way to get out of
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: that problem is to tear the fucking band aid off.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: And I completely agree with you, and I don't want
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: to do cocaine. I've never done cocaine my whole life.
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: I saw when I was a kid in high school,
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: I saw a bunch of people that had cocaine problems,
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: and I was like, I don't want to have anything
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: to do with that, right.
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: Right, Well, listen, you made that decision for yourself.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Right.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: And look, we know we were just touching upon examples
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: of people having a relationship with a coca plant without
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: it causing an issue.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think it's that addictive when you're just
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: chewing the leaves, right, I think those people do it
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: without much problems. There's also mante de cocoa, which is
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: a tea that they make from the leaves.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: Well, look, we're starting to talk about we're using the
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: word legalization and saying there will be a problem with
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: legalization for a time being. Why don't we talk about
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: decriminalization and regulation.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: But the problem is, even with decriminalization, what's the supply?
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: Where are people getting it from? If you can't sell
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: it legally, then how how do I know it's pure?
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: That's right, that's the real issue. The real issue with
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: cocaine is probably not cocaine itself. The real issue is
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: getting cocaine that's stepped on and cut and cut a
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: lot of times with fentanyl. I mean, we all know
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: people that have died from fentanyl overdoses. I know a
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: bunch of people that have.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've done follow up on police calls to people
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: who said to me directly, I was trying to get coke,
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: I got fentanyl and almost died. That's a tragedy. But but, but, but, Joe,
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: you're jumping to this next idea that we should probably explore,
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: which is called safe supply. Yeah, and who should control
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: safe supply? But let me remind our audience and let
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: me bring this back into the conversation. Our police promotional books,
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: we're not We're not. We're not talking radically here. Our
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: police promotion books talk about the problem with prohibition and criminalization,
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: on leashing gangsters and dangerous supply our civilians.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: And that's where the cartels come into place.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: Look, when we were kids, the cartels weren't an issue,
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: That's right. Do you ever remember to talk of how
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: old are you? I'm forty eight. I grew up in Chelsea,
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: mass I'm almost fifty eight. I grew up in Newton,
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: I didn't ever hear about cartels, that's right. You never
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: heard about Mexican cartels. You never heard about the problem.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: Now it's like all over the news. That's a big thing.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: Why is it a big thing? Because they controlled the
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: drug supply into the United States because drugs are illegal,
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: so only outlaws sell drugs.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: And what happens with value when you make something illegal, Yeah,
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: shoots through the roof, that's right, and the most violent
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: come in and replace the less violent.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: Exactly, you know, just like during prohibition when the mob
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: took over.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: That's so they gained power. That's how they got money.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: That's what they were selling alcohol.
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: And so what's safe supply or a safe use from
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: I would purport to say that a bar is a
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: safe use room. Yeah, where you can get safe.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: Supply, right, Yeah, right, I know you're getting actual real alcohol,
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: that's it.
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 2: And how about we incorporate treating adults like adults? Yeah,
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: powerful education and decide who's going to control safe supply
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: because right now the most dangerous people on earth controlling.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, And I think education, what you just said is
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: a huge part of it. And to let people understand, like, hey,
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: everyone knows there's giant problems with alcohol use. There's alcoholism,
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: there's liver failure, there's a host of different diseases that
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: come from being an alcoholic. And then there's also operating
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: motor vehicles when you're drunk, and drunk driving kills a
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: ton of people every year, and also a bunch of
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: violent acts that get perpetrated by people that are drunk.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of things wrong with alcohol, but yet
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: we allow alcohol, you know, and alcohol is one of
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: the worst drugs. It's one of the worst drugs for
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: you physically. Yeah, it's one of the only drugs that
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: if you become addicted to it, you can't quit cold
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: turkey or your fucking die.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: That's right right then in there exactly. So working with
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: this logic shoe right, because people sometimes make me out
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: to be out of my mind when I say this stuff.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: If the most dangerous, toxic and carcinogenic is available and
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: the least dangerous, helpful, non addicted is not available, let's
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: fix that.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: Why do I sound wild when I say that? Yeah?
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: Well, I think the mushroom one is the easiest one
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: because of the fact that it genuinely can't kill people.
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: Cocaine is a lot harder, so because also like I
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: don't necessarily think it's good for you, but I know
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: people that have done pure cocaine that really enjoyed the
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: experience and didn't get addicted to it. So I don't,
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: I don't. I can't speak on that. I just think
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: that things that are physically addictive, that have been known
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: to ruin your life are things you should probably avoid, and.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: We can teach upon that, and we can educate upon that.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, look at the wonderful job we've done at
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: kind of putting the reins on nick through advertisement and education.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: Well cigarette smoking in particular, because the problem isn't really
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: the nicotine, which we've found to be. Yeah, it's like
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: nicotine actually has health benefits to it, which sounds crazy
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: to peoples neuroprotectant that it actually stopped people from getting COVID.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of weird stuff with the compound nicotine,
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: but then there's the delivery method and it's not even
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: just like it's hard to know what's true or what's
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: not true. But I'm sure you saw that Russell Crowe
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: movie The Insider. I haven't. It's a great movie, but
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: it's about these companies that added chemicals to cigarettes to
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: make them far more addictive. And he was a whistleblower.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: He was a chemist that was working at this company.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: Russell Crowe was playing this doctor, was a real guy
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: whose life was threatened because he exposed that these companies
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: had put a bunch of different chemicals into cigarettes to
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: make them highly addictive, much more addictive than just plain
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: regular tobacco smoking.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: Well, I was told that those scientists were absorbed into
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: the food industry.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: Well that's the problem is that the companies that were
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: getting sued after it was determined that cigarette smoking does
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: cause cancer, cigarettes are addictive. Once they lost a bunch
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: of money, they wound out and bought all the processed
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: food companies and now they made those more addictive. And
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: so now, like you know, they even openly flaunted I
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: bet you can't eat one.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: Chip, that's right, Bet you can't.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: I mean that's the thing. And again I think you
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: should be able to eat doritos. I like them the delicious,
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: nothing wrong with them, but they are addictive. And why
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: they addictive because they're they're chemically designed to be addictive.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: Because these food manufacturing companies want you to buy more
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: of them. Simple, It's like, how do we get people
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: to eat more chips? Make the chips impossible to put
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: down or very difficult to put down.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: And if you want to increase their value through the roof,
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 2: prohibit access after they've tasted them and let the cartaels
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: produce them in another country and try to get them
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 2: across the border to sell to our people.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: You're gonna get fensonal petitities, that's right, which is so great.
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: Imagine if they outlawed all process foods and you got
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: to get fucking contraband twinkiesily right, good lord? Right? Like, yeah,
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: I think you should be able to buy ring dings.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: They should be legal, but I wouldn't recommend eating them
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: every day. They're fucking terrible for it, exactly, but they
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: taste delicious exactly. You want one every now and again.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: And that's the environment that we're in with some things
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: and not others.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: Right, And that's the problem. It's illogical, it's illogical, and
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: there's also this fear aspect to it, because if you
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: go against it, you know you're going to get put
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: into a very bad position where there's people with enormous
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: power and influence that want to silence you. And this
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: is why guys like Rick Doblin are so courageous, because
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: he spent his entire life trying to do this the
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: right way and doing it above board. Buy the books
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: and show through the use with police officers and military
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: people and people experiencing PTSD that look, this has extreme
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: beneficial aspects to it that you should ignore, and they're
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: good for society and we should probably expand the use
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: of them in an appropriate way.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: That's right. I think that his work is leading to
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 2: one of the first big kinks in the armor of
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: the system. And you speak to the value of the
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: way that he did it, You know what I mean?
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: What are the rules? Tell me we'll operate within them.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: What kind of data do I have to create? Well,
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: let me make that data? How do I access the compound?
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: How are you going to let me?
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: And if we don't know how, we need the rules
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: And sometimes the rules weren't there, and Rick and Maps
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: had to push right in our system, how do we
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: battle what's the appropriate way to unleash violence? It's with lawyers, right,
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: It's frowned upon to physically physically be violent. So he
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: had to fight he had to fight with the government.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 2: And what really makes me nuts, Joe, is, you know
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 2: the amount of back and forth. Again, I heard that
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: they did with the FDA, with the regulators. They knew
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: what they were doing, the design of the process, everything
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: was being talked about, right, and they get a.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: Let's wait, it's interesting that the results were too good.
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean just from the ones I hold
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: in my heart.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So what do you what kind of pressure do
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: you think they're under to not allow these things? Because
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: that's the question, like what is it? Is it public
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: social pressure? Because if they do pass this, then they'll
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: be scrutinized, and people that are ignorant and that have
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: bought into the narrative will then look at them as
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: like you're part of the problem. You're contributing to the
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: deterioration of society allowing this use of MDMA to push forward,
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: and by minimizing the risks of it, by talking about
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: the benefits of it, you're essentially allowing people to think
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: that it's a lot safer than it really is.
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: Look, I think that's I think that's a component. Right,
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: We're talking about public perception and that changing, and then
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: that pressuring and things changing as well. I think this
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 2: is a paradigm changing and shifting thing that the entire system,
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: including pharma and all these people that are on these boards,
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: these decision makers, power brokers right are trying to make
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: sense of. And I'll explain, we have an identified disorder
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: or challenge. We have a medicine that masks that symptom.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: This is going to allow people to truly heal. When
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 2: you truly heal, you don't have to keep taking a medicine.
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: You might have to come back to it periodically. Sure,
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: let's call that a flare up. Yeah, let's call it
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: a touch up. But when you're not taking your pill
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: every day, every other day, that's going to be a
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: big hit to people's power and money.
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: Right, especially when you deal with things like there's a
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: giant business in keeping people I don't want to say
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: happy but not depressed, right, Like, there's a giant industry
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: and people that are on SSRIs and antidepression and anti
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: anxiety medication. When it's been proven that exercise is far
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: more effective than SSRIs are far more medically proven, statistically
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: proven that SSRIs are not as effective as regular exercise.
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: Well, let me throw something in there. Is that a medicine, right?
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well exercise is definitely a medicine, right.
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 2: So there's an organization I think it's called Exercise as Medicine,
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: But mainstream medical doctor going to be able to prescribe
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: exercise to somebody, they can't.
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: We should be They should be able to, Yeah, they
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: really should. But the problem is there's no profit in that.
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: They do it on your do it on your own,
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 2: join the gym yourself. And you know, half the people
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: aren't going to go because they're scared, they don't want
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: to look goofy. The the other quarter who do go
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: might not appropriate approach it correctly.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really interesting thing here. So so back
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: to back to your question. This is going to be
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: a paradigm shifting thing. I believe that psychedelic assisted talk
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: therapy is going to allow talk therapy to live up
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 2: to its promise as a talking cure. I believe the
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: psychedelics are going to be able to cure or push
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: into remission a lot of these unshakable challenges. And that's
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: going to be a big hit to the SSRIs. That's
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 2: going to be a big hit to certain medicines. You
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: know what else I think it's going to do. I
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: think it's going to move people from agnosticism or atheism
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: towards religion and spirituality. And it's also going to be
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: a boon for religion, which is wild, right, wild yeah, wild.
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of John Marco Alegro's book, The
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: Sacred Mushroom in the Cross. No, it's a book that
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: he wrote after he was He was one of the
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: people that was he was contracted to decipher the Dead
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: Sea Scrolls. It was like a fourteen year job where
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: they were deciphering the Dead Sea scrolls, and he was
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: the only one on the committee that was agnostic. He
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: was an ordained minister, but through his studying of theology,
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: he started becoming agnostic because he recognized that there's just
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: too many religions and too many parallels, and like, what's
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 1: the real religion and root of this all? Or origin
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: rather than root of this all. So he wrote this
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: book after fourteen years where he I'm gonna sort of paraphrase,
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: but he thought that the entire Christian religion was based
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: on the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms and fertility rituals, and
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: that this was what it was all about And I
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: believe the book fine, because I've said this before. What
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: I need to know it's true was the book bought
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: up by the Catholic Church. I think it was brought
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: up by the Catholic Church and they stopped production of it.
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 1: And then he released a new book called The Dead
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth, and that one was available.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: But then since then they've republished both of them. Yeah,
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: both of them. But the big one was The Sacred
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: Mushroom in the Cross, because that was the one that
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: was kind of very difficult to get. And I have
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: a couple copies of it, but they are original copies
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: that I had to buy on okay okay. And it's
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: a fascinating book. It's a fascinating book because he translates
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: or he he he breaks down the word Christ to
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: an ancient Sumerian word, which was a mushroom covered in
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: God's semen. And this is what he's saying, is that
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: they thought that when it rained, that this was God
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: his semen on the earth, which has caused all life
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: to rise from We all need light, we all need water,
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: and then plants, of course need water, and then after
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: rainfall they would find these mushrooms because mushrooms grow incredibly quickly,
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: and they would consume these mushrooms and have these religious experiences.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: And this was a hugely controversial book, of course, And
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: to really be able to know if he's right or wrong,
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: you would have to have a deep understanding of ancient
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: languages and the Bible and so many different things.
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 2: Well, you know what that brings up in me, Joe
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 2: is the sacredness of sexuality. One. I don't know why
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: that what you just said triggered that in me. And
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: the other is what about every Sunday magically transmuting bread
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: and wine into flesh and blood of God? Right, This
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 2: isn't a radical concept. This is accepted. This is like
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 2: a billion follower strong right type of Christianity, that is,
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: through sacred ritual transforming food into the body and blood
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 2: of God. Right, just because we can understand that this
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: is wood and a table and we've labeled it and
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: boxed it and analyzed it, doesn't mean that the mystery
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: of it all has been stripped away. And I don't
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: think we need to allow that process to happen. Right.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 2: This is a magical, mysterious experience when we're staring at
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: one another just because we identify as human beings, Do
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 2: we really know what's happening? Or is that ego inflation
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: and science trying a dumb down a mystery and a magic.
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: Well, it's all a mystery, right, We've become accustomed to
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: the mystery, so it seems normal. But you know, if
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: you didn't exist on Earth, and Earth was a drug
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: that you could take quick, experience life on Earth like
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: this is crazy.
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 2: It absolutely is.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: Why being a human being interacting with people, looking at
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: things through your eyes, that's right, hearing things through your ears,
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: touching and feeling, smelling, and using all your senses and
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: navigating through this bizarre experience of life very weird.
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 2: And what about that image of the araborus right the
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: snake or dragging dying itself. I mean, let's talk about
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 2: sacred sexuality and the fact that every living thing is
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 2: in a system that's eating and birthing itself continuously in
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: all directions. How do you wrap your mind around that?
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 2: You know, I got a big sense of that when
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 2: I went into old growth rainforest in Costa Rica for
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 2: the first time, and I touched like the handle of
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 2: a bridge and it felt like it was moving, because
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 2: like every drop of everything is alive and everything is
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 2: either competing, going along with and helping, supporting or eating
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: one another in that space, and it's like, what is
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 2: happening in here? It's like everything is alive.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: And I had that type of an experience on psychedelics
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 2: in the religious context. Psilocybin. I felt like I dropped
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 2: into the collective conscience and I got to see the
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 2: partition section that was my psychic space where all my
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: complexes and traumas were pulsing energetically into one another, and
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 2: how that energy was spilling over on my family and community.
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 2: That was the access that was given to me through psilocybin,
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 2: you know. And those energetic forces are pushing me around
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 2: right now as we speak.
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: Well, which makes you think like if you were an
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: ancient person and you have this experience, of course, you
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: would think you're communing with God.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I agree, And look, we're all ancient persons
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 2: right now in this short time, and I believe.
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: That, Yeah, well we are ancient. And you know, if
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: you go five thousand years from now, how they're going
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: to look at us like these dorks.
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 2: And arguing about y Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can't
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 2: wait till war is old technology that we all laugh about.
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. God, isn't that a crazy thing that if you
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: ask a person is it possible in your lifetime for
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: war do not exist? Most people would be like, there's
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 1: no way, which is insane. It's so insane because in
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: small groups it's clearly easy. Like if it was just you,
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: me and Jamie and we were the only people on Earth,
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: it would be super easy and not go to war
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: with each other, that's right, we just communicate. But then
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: you're dealing with different languages and control of resources, and
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: then you have people that are leaders that have control
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: over giant groups of people and then use propaganda manipulation, Yeah,
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: and manipulate them into thinking that the only way is
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: we have to go over there and kill these people exactly.
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: That's the only way to fight for your freedom. Yep.
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And Joe, you know, when there's research out there
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 2: that shows that for a period of time, our species
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: ended up having something like five thousand of us on Earth.
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: It's out there, right.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: Have you seen a few few moments in history, right,
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: the tobe of volcano.
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 2: And how did we survive that? Did we eat each
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: other or hurt each other. We probably helped each other.
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, well there was probably so few people they
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: had to Yeah, that's right. Well, this is the also
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: the point of Allegro's work that fertility rituals were important
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: because people didn't really survive much. You know, it was
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: very difficult child just labor, just childbirth killed a lot
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: of women, killed a lot of babies. Infections killed a
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: lot of people. You break your leg, you're dead. There's
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 1: a lot of things that caused people to die. So
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 1: it was very important to have as many children as
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: possible because most of them weren't going to live.
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. And you bring up a point
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 2: that woman might not have made it through the process itself. Yeah,
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 2: and what an important process, Yeah, for the overall species
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 2: well being.
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the most critical of all processes. And that's been
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: reduced to a thing now that's like.
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 2: Trivialized, trivialized or even still taboo.
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of crazy. I mean there's
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: people out there that love people that don't want to
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: have children. I'm like, okay, well I wouldn't want to
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: bring a child into this world, Like, yeah, why would
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: you with all the books in medicine and shit like
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: nicely said. Yeah, like people had people, people gave birth
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: when they didn't know what a door was. They hadn't
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: figured out floors yet. You know, It's like we were
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: constantly in this process of evolving and changing and growing,
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 1: but it just gets stifled by so many different aspects
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 1: of civilization, so many different aspects of control and propaganda
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 1: and manipulation and fear.
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 2: And the fear of others and fear. I mean, look
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 2: at what's happening with our life expectancy like you said,
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 2: and good medicine keeping people alive. Yeah, and we're living
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 2: to be eighty ninety years old.
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: And hopefully if you live to be eighty or nine
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 1: years old, to be wiser, hopefully right, hopefully right, Hopefully
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: you'll get more of an understanding of like what you've
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: done wrong? And like why why have I lived my
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: life in this foolish way? Like what can I do
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: to correct that? What can I do to make more
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: positive impact on people around me and live my life
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: in a more harmonious way. But you know, some people,
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 1: they're eighty years old, they just watch Fox News and
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: yell at the TV.
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 2: You know, they they right. The image that went through
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 2: my head is somebody turning the TV off. Yeah, maybe
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 2: picking up a book and then you know, there's a
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: choice point here, Joe, where you can you Sometimes it's
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: hard because there's things in the psyche that are manipulating
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 2: what you're focusing on traumas plus external factors. But if
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 2: you start focusing on gratitude, if you start focusing on
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 2: the beauty, if you start focusing on the benefits of science,
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 2: the benefits of operating and communion with other human beings. Yeah,
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 2: that thing that we said, I mean, how many people
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 2: in Manhattan, right, every day waking up, they go to work,
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 2: they go home. Yeah, there's a handful of problems. But
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: that's not how it's presented. It's miraculous if you think
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: It is right. The amount of negative interactions that people
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 1: have are incredibly small. Yeah, we think about the sheer
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: number of humans.
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. That we concentrate on the fear exactly.
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: We concentrate on the dangerous.
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 2: And the media zooms in on someone who doesn't have
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 2: a house, someone who has an addiction.
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 1: Problem, someone who's violent, someone who's violent, someone is a criminal,
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 1: that's right, someone's stealing, that's right. That's all you hear,
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah.
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 2: I heard a statistic that the military knows about two
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 2: percent of people are sociopathic or psychopathic. They don't have
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 2: that same conscience that we automatically assume a human has, right.
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 1: Don't empathy? Right?
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it seems to me that we're so fear
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 2: based that we built the outer ecology that people have
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 2: access to around concerns related to that. We build the
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 2: mainstream culture, the laws that we operate under out of
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 2: concern for the two percent, rather than celebration of the
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 2: ninety eight percent. Yeah, that do care, that do feel empathy,
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 2: that do that.
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: And that is the problem with the algorithm. That's the
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: problem with social media. And that's the problem with this
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: addiction to devices that you are constantly being inundated with
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: the negative. Yeah, you're constantly interacting with the worst aspects
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: of life on earth and not appreciating all the goods
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: around you all the time.
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 2: And the algorithm, Joe, like you brought up so eloquently,
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 2: it takes you down the path that you click towards,
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 2: you know, and I recall intentionally starting to click things
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 2: outside of my comfort zone and thinkers and presenters not
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 2: within my bubble, and that's what it starts filling with.
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah as well, Oh yeah, you certainly can do that
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: if you curate a good feed, you know, and you
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: can ignore the negative and there's a lot of great stuff.
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: One of the great things about social media is just
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: the access to new and fascinating information. You're constantly if
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 1: you do follow the right people and do go down
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: the right roads, you'll be constantly inundated with fascinating information.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: New discoveries, the James Webb telescope, and the new things
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: that people are learning about quantum physics and all these
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: different fascinating things that can enrich your mind and expand
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 1: your understanding of the world that we live in instead
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: of dwelling on all the negative aspects of human civilization, right.
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 2: Right, And that kind of speaks to the fact that
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 2: we are lucky to be able to have access to
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 2: social media in that way. There's nations that don't allow
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 2: that type of access by design.
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah right.
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 2: So the power, the power of our method is liberty
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 2: and freedom, yes, right, not criminalization and prohibition. You see
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 2: the jump. I'm trying to make there.
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: And the jump also is what you were talking about
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: before with education, and I think we need an education
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: too with people in social media use. People need to
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: be kind of coached and understand how to use it,
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: how to use it correctly. And you know, I've been
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: trying to express to as many people as I can,
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: especially people in the public eye. Don't read comments. You've
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: got to stop doing that. Don't read things about you,
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 1: don't read negative things about you. It's bad for you.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: It's bad for you. And also you're dealing with the
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: percentage of people that are commenting negative things. Those people
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 1: almost entirely live lives that you would not envy nicely. Second,
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 1: they're almost all a mess, and so you're interacting with
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 1: the I don't want to say the worst aspects of society,
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: but the most troubled human beings, the people that are
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 1: thinking in the most ridiculous way. They're they're constantly focusing
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 1: on negative aspects of either human beings or of society
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: in general, and they're feeding off of it, and that
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: that's their focus all day long, and they spend most
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 1: of their time arguing with people online like yeah, do
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 1: you want to be involved in that like that is
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: when we live in what is primarily a beautiful world.
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 2: Nicely said, Yeah, and I think you're pointing at something
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 2: that's important to keep in mind, is be careful about
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 2: what you let in?
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: Yes, right, yeah, I.
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 2: Think that's like that's a universal principle, but it's eloquently
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: shared in Buddhism, where they say guard your dorma gates right,
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 2: your eyes, yes, your mind, right, your senses? What are
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 2: you taking in?
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 2: Because you know, there's other philosophies that say thoughts are things.
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: Be careful what you think.
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 1: Hmm, you know.
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I've come to notice, let's call it the
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 2: CBT triangle cognitive behavioral therapy or theory triangle. Right, thoughts
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 2: lead to emotions, lead to actions.
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 2: Because of psychedelic work, I've able to see how a
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: thought actually is a portal that allows a certain energetic
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 2: flow into you and that affects you and that can
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 2: manifest in reality out of you.
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 1: As a therapist, how have you incorporated this in everyday life? Okay,
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: your patients, Two.
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 2: Things come to mind when you ask that question. It's
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 2: made me more empathetic because I've had direct access, direct
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 2: experience of some of these theories you read about or
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 2: have a teacher as the expert tell you about, I've
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 2: had direct access to. The second is I'm able to
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 2: share with people when they come to me being pulled
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 2: towards experiencing these things ideas around harmoredduction, Where to go right,
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 2: there's legal states, there's less legal states. I can talk
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 2: to them about the substances.
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 2: I'm not prescribing, but if you come to talk to me,
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 2: I can listen see what I'm saying, and I know
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 2: from direct experience some things right. I'm also able to
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: fight off fear, and I can go into these territories
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 2: with people. Therapists need to know that themselves. You don't
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 2: want to step outside of what you're the lanes that
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: you're comfortable being in. Right, If you're not comfortable being
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: in a certain lane, you've got to go get training,
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 2: training and experience to be an ethical practitioner before you
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 2: talk about something. Right, And I've gotten that experience. It's
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 2: never ending. I'm not done. I'm just in my process
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 2: of awakening, and I can share from that reference point.
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 2: You know, as a therapist, that was your question, right.
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 2: That's how I think I can help people I'm more empathetic.
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 2: You come in and want to talk to me about
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 2: a particular substance. I have a little bit of a
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 2: lived experience knowledge base I can share with you, and
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 2: legally I'm allowed to talk harm reduction, you know, right,
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: I can't prescribe. I'm not going to tell you to
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 2: do something illegal, right, but if you want to talk
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: to me about it, I know a thing or two,
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 2: not everything, just a thing or two.
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: I think one of the best arguments against decriminalization is
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 1: what happened with Portland. Okay, so you know they went
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 1: down this path. It was Portland, right, it wasn't Seattle
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 1: that went down this path of pure legalization everything. Yeah,
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 1: decriminalized that, Yeah, and it went highways. And I think
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 1: it was probably because the culture that had already been
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 1: firmly established in that place condoned open air drug markets,
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 1: people that were addicted to fentanyl and opiates out on
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: the street and methamphetamines out on the street, using them constantly,
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 1: no education, and then they just sort of opened the
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: doors for everything. And then people went there specifically because
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: they could do these things and be that on the
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: streets and also be yeah, subsidized.
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So let me bring some some
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 2: things up about that. So, you know, I believe in decriminalization,
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 2: but there's a right and a not so right way
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 2: to do something right. And I'm going to use examples
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 2: of laws we already have on the book. This might
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 2: not be a popular statement, but it's my truth. If
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 2: you say you're going to decriminalize, you can look at
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 2: the way we handle alcohol. We don't allow public drunkenness.
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 2: We don't have to allow it. A lot of places
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 2: say you can't walk around and be annebriated and open
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 2: bottle drink, even the most liberal places. Right, a cop
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 2: can come up, they can protective custody, you into a cage,
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 2: or they can help you get home. Right, why don't
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 2: those rules apply if you're in public, we can say
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 2: we're not gonna want you to use openly in public, right,
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: But when you've already got people openly camping out on
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 1: the streets and littering everywhere and like what they've already allowed, unfortunately,
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 1: they need to clean that up first before they can
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 1: say we're going to decriminalize everything, because you've already allowed
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 1: people to do something that you know publicly is frowned
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: upon to just like be shitting on the street and
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: to to you know, open drug use everywhere. Right, have
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 1: people camped out homeless people like covering up sidewalks where
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 1: you can't get around, and there's needles everywhere, and it's
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 1: like garbage everywhere.
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 2: Well, we can agree that we don't want that in
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 2: many places, like there's local ordinances against that, there's state
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 2: level laws against that, and we can go all the
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 2: way up there. But well, that's the thing we can add.
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 2: Why wasn't the funding in place to ensure that public
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 2: areas with public access followed some rules. Why what happened?
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 2: You know, I think that can be figured out. Right,
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 2: So we realized that if we say full scale decriminalization,
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 2: anything goes doesn't work. I would have told you right
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 2: from the beginning, well that's kind of freaky. Why are
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: we going that far? Why don't we have any funding
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 2: to help people and tell them, no, you can't take
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 2: a shit over there, you have to take a shit
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 2: over here. We can all agree we don't want human
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 2: feces over here, right that that that's not a shot
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 2: against that person. We got to figure out what's going on,
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 2: why they pooping over there, not in the porta potti
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 2: over here, or how about have a location where those
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 2: people can go that isn't to prison, where we have
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 2: wrap around services where we have maybe access to what
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 2: they need, maybe access to what they're addicted to. Right now,
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 2: we're starting to talk about safe supply with care and
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 2: medical intervention.
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no one's ever done that successfully though, Right, Like,
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 1: has any state ever incorporated some sort of successful program
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 1: where they gave people safe supply and then counseling and
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 1: got like a percentage of them off drugs and healthy.
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 2: So I've heard that Canada is exploring the medical access
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 2: of medical grade heroin for certain people. And we know
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: that certain countries for years at this point have safe
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 2: injection facilities where people can come to use their drugs
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 2: under care and consideration and then leave. We know these
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 2: things work, but they've got to be curated properly.
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when you also can impose it on all the
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 1: rest of society by allowing people to just camp out.
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 2: Everywhere in the streets, Well that's the example that, right, like,
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 2: we can have rules, local ordinances that say this isn't
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 2: a campground, yeah, right, right, And what do you need
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 2: for this not to be a campground. Let's talk. Come
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 2: talk in this building over here.
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 1: Right, right.
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 2: We can even figure out what kind of well, I mean,
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 2: what's that going to cost. We can figure that out.
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 2: And why isn't it being funded? Right? And why aren't
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 2: the police properly funded to act in a guardianship way
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 2: in those situations?
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 1: Right? Yeah?
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 2: Because look, look, our efforts go in the direction that
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 2: our funding goes, because people build their lives around that.
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 2: And if funding is ninety percent on enforcement, then that's
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 2: what you're going to get.
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 2: And we talked about the problems and how hurtful defund was.
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 2: How about properly funding law enforcement to work in a
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 2: guardianship paradigm for these situations that aren't necessarily criminal, they
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 2: might be public health. Now you're keeping the cops involved, right,
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 2: You're not saying we're going to defund you. We don't
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 2: need you. We do need you. You play a vital
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 2: role in our society.
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 1: But that would require like a fundamental shift to progressive
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: ideology and have to like change the way they view cops.
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 2: Maybe that'll have to be incorporated in drips and drabs
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 2: and carefully into training. Right, Yeah, But I got an
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 2: example for you. I got an example for you. I
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 2: think it's really important. It's from where I come right
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 2: in Winthrop, Massachusetts. Winthrop, Massachusetts, ten years ago, when I
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 2: was a patrol officer and I kept coming in seeing
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 2: public health issues in the police logs and police incidents.
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 2: Public health issue, mental health challenge, a person not having
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 2: access to their psychiatrist, running out of their medicine, overdose save,
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 2: overdose loss, tragically, over and over and over again. I
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 2: went talk to the police chief. I said, his name's
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 2: Terrence Delahunty. I said, chief on patrol. When I'm in,
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 2: will you let me make a pile of work. Let's
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 2: call it cases to investigate because I think I have
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 2: a detective fetish. I've never been a detective, but I
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 2: wanted to investigate things too. He's like, then, what are
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 2: you gonna do with that pile. I'm going to follow
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 2: up in police uniform, patrol car. I'm gonna go knock
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 2: on a door and have a conversation with somebody, see
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 2: what they really need to prevent that nine to one
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 2: one call for service. He's on record saying he thought
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 2: I was gonna bang my head up against the wall.
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 2: He's like, there's no one's going to talk to this
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 2: kid in full uniform, but he was so excited I
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 2: had to let him try. Two three weeks later, I
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 2: come back, I said, Chief, I got a problem. People
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 2: are inviting me into their house, telling me to sit down,
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 2: calling somebody down who's telling me that they were looking
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 2: for cocaine, got fentanyl. We have a good problem. I
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 2: got to connect these people to their appropriate help. You
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 2: know what he said to me, He said, connect them
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 2: to the public health department. There's a woman in there.
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 2: Her name's Meredith Hurley, and she's brought in people that
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 2: lived in living experience with challenges related to intoxicating substances
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 2: who are open about it. To hell help with the
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 2: overdose crisis. BANG public safety connected with public health. We
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 2: created what I call the public the police to public
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 2: health pipeline. Right picture this a cop showing up to
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 2: your house because they know what's going on in your house,
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 2: called nine one one, and you told us without us
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 2: even coercing you and saying, Joe, what's going on? What
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 2: do you need? What do you need to be well?
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 2: We don't want you to die. Talk to us. We're
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 2: not going to use it against you. I'm actually not
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 2: going to run you because I'm playing this distinct role.
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to run you. I don't want to
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 2: know if there's any outstanding warrants. I'm not here. I'm
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 2: not here to snoop around to find something that I'm
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 2: going to be able to charge you with. I'm here
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 2: to see what you need to not die and not
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 2: have my detective show up and put you in a cage.
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 2: That started in Winthrop over ten years ago. It's called
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 2: clear Community and law Enforcement Assisted Recovery.
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 1: Well, that's hopeful. You've got to expand something like that.
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 2: I think we have room to expand it across the
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 2: whole country. We are repositories. Police departments are repositories of
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 2: information on human suffering. You know what we're doing with that.
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 2: If it's not traditional enforcement based policing to make cases
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 2: for court, nothing, that's not right.
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 1: So it's the way it's approached. It's the way these
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 1: problems are approached, and that they need new solutions, solutions
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 1: that are preventative and that enforce the sense of community
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 1: and help law enforcement officers ingratiate themselves with these people
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 1: and be a part of the community instead of just
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: being a person who comes to lock them up there.
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 2: It is you know what that is. That's community policing.
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 2: We call it recovery oriented community policing. Right now, let
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 2: me plug something else in that I think is a
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 2: sophisticated important point that people got to keep in mind.
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 2: This isn't an attack on traditional enforcement type of policing. Right.
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 2: If you are sensitive to human nature, you know there's
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 2: going to be violations of the type that need somebody
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 2: to show up and take a person out of their
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 2: house in cuffs, put them in a jail cell, and
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 2: take them to court. Unfortunately, the dark side is a
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 2: part of human nature, and that type of policing done
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 2: right is important and it keeps us well. But when
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 2: it's the only type of policing, we're missing something. We're
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 2: missing something important and special, and our people are expecting
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 2: our officers to show up and put a hand out,
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 2: a hand, a helping hand, and say we know what's
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 2: going on, and we want you to be well. We
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 2: don't want you to die, we don't want you to
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 2: be in a cage. Human being in a cage. I
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 2: think it is fundamentally law enforcement's role to do that.
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 2: This and that.
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, said, that might be a good way to
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: end this. Tell people how they can get a hold
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 1: of you social media, like where you are.
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 2: Sure I appreciate that. Well, they can look up my
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 2: name Sarco Jed Jetty on I'm out of Winthrop, Massa.
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 1: Because they're not gonna be able to get that right.
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 2: Sure, it's g E R G E R I A N.
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 2: I'm out of Winthrop, Massachusetts. I'm a lieutenant with the
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 2: Winthrop Police Department. I want Joe, let me plug this in.
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 2: I am here speaking of my own beliefs, sharing about
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 2: the positives about my community, my department I found there.
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 2: But these are my ideas. I'm not purporting to talk
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 2: on behalf of Winthrop Police, Winthrop, mass I just need
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 2: people to know that. But they can find me online.
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 2: They can. They can get a hold of me at
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 2: my work email. I liberally share my personal email if
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 2: and if they send me an email, I'll respond.
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 1: How do they get your email?
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 2: You know, it's just my last name at gmail dot com.
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 2: G E R G E R I A N at
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 2: gmail dot com.
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 1: Okay, good luck with the amount of emails you're going
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 1: to get after this.
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 2: All right, let's do it. Give me some time to
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 2: get back to you.
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 1: All right. Well, thanks, brother, I appreciate you. I appreciate
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 1: you your perspective. The fact that you're willing to express
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 1: it the way you do, and that you're willing to
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 1: come on here and stick your neck out like this
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 1: means a lot.
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 2: Joe, let me say something back to you, man, This
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 2: was a really special, special moment for me. I'm not
• 1:58:58
  Speaker 2: only a colleague of yours, man, I'm a fan and
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 2: a number of close personal friends. One in particular, Billy Reinstein,
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 2: who I love to death, said to tell Joe that
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 2: he has helped me so tremendously. His show has helped
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 2: me stay well, be well, be happy, and I wanted
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 2: to get that message out.
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 1: That's a shout out to Billy. All right, all right,
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 1: thank you very much, appreciate it. All right, Bye, buddy,