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The ‘Havenverse (Message from the Deep) · Pick Up and Deliver

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  Welcome to Pick Up and Deliver, the Podcast where I pick up my audio recorder when I step
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  off the train and deliver an episode to you while I walk home.
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  I'm Brendan Riley.
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  [Music]
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  Good afternoon, listeners.
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  It's a lovely, sunny day here in suburban Chicago.
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  I'm enjoying my walk from the train back home and I was thinking on the train, "what is something
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  I should talk to you about?" and I realized I couldn't remember:
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  it's been a long time since I've done a Message from the Deep episode.
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  So long so that some of you might not remember this ever being an episode idea.
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  I don't really don't remember the last time I did one.
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  So essentially a Message from the Deep episode is a thorough in-depth review of a game.
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  Generally it's going to be a thorough in-depth review of a game I really like because I generally
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  want to have played it many times before I do an episode like that.
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  I have done a number of them in the past but it's been a while since I've done one.
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  More recently I've done a lot of duels.
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  I've done an episode where I'll put two games that I've played a lot against each other
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  and kind of compare them.
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  But I haven't gone back and done just a Message from the Deep in quite a while.
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  So the idea of a Message from the Deep is to share my experiences like a deep and intense
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  review of a game.
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  And generally what I do is I pick out three or four characteristics of the game that I
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  find interesting, talk about how they are special in the game and then sometimes I will relate
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  them to other games.
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  And if you haven't played that game maybe you could understand what the game is about.
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  That's the general idea but I'll start with a basic summary of the game.
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  So today I'm going to talk about Frosthaven.
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  I'm talking about Frosthaven in the general circumstance of talking about all of the
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  Haven games, Gloomgaven, Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion, Gloomhaven: circles of whatever.
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  That's actually the only one we haven't played.
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  We haven't played those.
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  And then Frosthaven.
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  To start with, if you haven't played these games, you don't know anything about them,
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  these are Euro-style dungeon crawl games that are heavily puzzle focused and heavily tactical.
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  So generally the idea of any of them, I'm just going to say Frosthaven from now on but
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  this applies to all the games.
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  I'll mention when it doesn't.
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  The idea of these games is that you have a character that like a long form RPG is developing
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  over time and you use them to go on sort of dungeon crawl style adventures in fantasy land.
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  In Gloomhaven it's a fantasy land in the world surrounding the city of Gloomhaven.
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  In Frosthaven, Frosthaven is a new outpost city being built in the northern climate,
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  north of Gloomhaven in the frozen wastes and so you're adventuring in Frosthaven.
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  Each game is a scenario and the scenario is outlined in a book and it involves setting
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  out some tiles and setting out, getting out different sort of figure enemies and then there's
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  a little story involved and you try to accomplish the goal of the mission and then if you succeed
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  you get some sort of reward.
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  If you fail you're allowed to do the mission over again.
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  Generally the idea is if you fail you're exhausted, you never are killed unless you're
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  playing--there are some people who will play with a permadeath mode where if you are killed,
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  if you are exhausted during an adventure you die.
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  I don't know of anyone who plays that way but there must be some people who do and the idea
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  is that after each adventure you gain experience, you gain loot and over time your character
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  gets stronger.
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  The basic gameplay mechanism is that you have these action cards.
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  Generally you have a large selection of action cards but you can only bring some of them
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  on each adventure.
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  So after you learn what the adventure is, the first thing you do is select the action cards
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  you're going to bring.
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  The way the action cards are formatted, each card is divided into a top portion
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  and a bottom portion.
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  Generally the top portion is some sort of action or attack.
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  The bottom portion is an action or a move.
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  Each card has a generic attack strength 2 and move strength 2 as well.
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  So you can always, even if a card doesn't have the move you want, you could always use
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  a card to do a generic move 2 or you could always use a card to do a generic attack 2.
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  So the way the game works is that you have this hand of cards, let's say you have ten of
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  them in each round, each player selects two of their cards to play, one card where they
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  will use the top portion of the card, either the action that's on the card or the generic
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  and one part they'll use the bottom of the other card, either the bottom action or the generic
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  move.
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  You're not allowed to use the top part of two cards and after you use those cards they
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  go in your discard pile.
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  At some point you could choose to rest.
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  When you rest you get all your cards back but you lose one of your cards into your lost
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  pile and the lost pile are gone for good.
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  So as the game goes along you cycle through your deck, if you're very efficient you use all
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  your cards or almost all your cards before you rest then when you rest you get one less
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  card back.
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  So as the game goes along you slowly lose your action cards until you actually get to
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  the point where you run out.
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  If you run out of action cards then your character is exhausted and you're out of the scenario.
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  Each scenario has a goal that you're trying to accomplish, many of them, I'd say more
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  than half, are "kill all the enemies."
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  That's the goal.
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  There's some story wrapped up in it but often it's here's what's going on therefore
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  "kill all the enemies."
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  There are many scenarios that have some other thing you have to do as well.
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  Have everybody "stand on the switch for two rounds" or "kill all of one kind" or "kill one character"
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  and there's a bunch of other enemies running around or there's also two different things
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  you might have to do.
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  The enemies are represented they have these sort of character cards and then little decks
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  of cards that you flip to determine what the enemies do.
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  There's a whole lot more to the game.
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  I could spend the whole time explaining how the game works and then you wouldn't hear
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  anything about why it's amazing.
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  So I'm going to stop there.
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  I do want to talk about four things about the game that I find really compelling.
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  As I said many of these things are true for both Gloomhaven and Frosthaven.
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  Again I'm thinking here of Frosthaven because that's the game I've played most recently.
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  When I was preparing to do this episode I did discover that I did do a message from the
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  deep episode about Gloomhaven.
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  I think it was number 84 or something like that of the podcast.
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  So seven years ago, eight years ago I did a message from the deep episode about Gloomhaven.
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  So I have covered this on the podcast before but it is much further along.
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  Right now the 'haven system--Frosthaven, Gloomhaven, Gloomhaven Jaws of the Lion--is my number
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  11 game.
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  I wonder thinking about where does this game fit.
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  It is my number 11 game of all time.
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  All right so the first thing I want to point out is complex teamwork.
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  One of the things I like about this game best is it is a full co-op and it involves people
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  working together to try to figure out what they're going to do.
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  The game allows for limited communication but you're generally allowed to say what you're
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  going to do.
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  Like I'm going to try to go here and do this and the trickiest part is when are you going
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  to do that?
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  You're not supposed to say directly a number that you're going to use when you can do that
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  because the initiative you pick one of your cards to be your initiative and it's a number
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  between zero and a hundred and the enemies will have varying initiative as well.
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  So sometimes a big part of it is like you have a thing you want to do but you want to go
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  before the enemy scope or you want to go after the enemy scope and that can make a huge
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  difference in whether your action for the turn is successful or not.
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  For example if your character is a melee fighter and the enemies are right close to you but
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  sometimes they have ranged attacks you want to go before them so you can hit them because
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  when they come to the ranged attack they'll step back to shoot at you and then so if they
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  go first and you didn't plan a move then you aren't in range to hit them.
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  For example but the co-op part is really interesting because often players can provide buffs
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  for each other. There are these magic elements that activate that make your attacks stronger
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  and so often there's a thing where like if I go early I can charge up the sun element
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  and then someone later in the round can use the sun element and then they'll do better
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  so kind of talking to each other about what you need and what you want to do.
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  Talking about where you're going to go because players can't co-occupy the same space.
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  So if I need to move to a spot to do a thing and you move there first that can really
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  screw up my turn so the communication together about the different potentials is really
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  I think useful. The game that I can think of that feels closest to this in my experience
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  is Spirit Island. Now Spirit Island is a full co-op as well. It's very complicated like
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  Gloomhaven. You can't really keep track of what everybody has to do and everybody's
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  got different cards in their hands so it's very hard to like tell somebody what to do
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  but you can certainly talk about like hey here's a threat we have to deal with. Here's
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  something we have to watch out for we should work together for this. So the complex co-operativeness
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  of Spirit Island reminds me of the complex co-op at the core of Gloomhaven so that would
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  be a game that has complex teamwork that I would point to similar to Gloomhaven or Frosthaven.
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  Another one that comes to mind is Aons End, which is not nearly as complex as Gloomhaven but similar
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  thing where working together to feed off of each other's plays can really pay off
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  in terms of setting up something that the other person can take advantage of that really
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  can be a big part of making a successful round. So the second thing I like about Gloomhaven
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  there is a bit of random to resolve in Gloomhaven. I didn't say roll to resolve because there's
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  no dice in Gloomhaven instead there are these cards and there's a couple different places
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  where the cards come into play in terms of what happens. The first one is when the enemies
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  go. Each enemy has their own little deck of action cards and so each round after players
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  have selected what they're going to do the enemies reveal one of their action cards and do
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  something. So the randomness of when the enemies go and what they do is really compelling
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  and useful in terms of understanding what's going on in the game. It makes for really good
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  play. The second place that that happens is both a second and third place I suppose is
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  in the attack of both the enemies and the heroes. When you attack you're going to flip a card
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  out of a deck and that card will modify your attack. The modification can be small to large.
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  Generally when you start out you have a bunch of zeros so your attack is not modified. You
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  have a couple plus ones, you have a couple minus ones, you have like one plus two and one
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  minus two and then you have a 2x and a miss. The rules do have a thing where you can remove
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  the two X and the miss if you don't like the variance that that creates but we leave
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  it in because that's really fun. Of course it feels like we pull the miss more often than
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  we pull the 2x and most of the time the cards you're drawing don't really make a huge
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  difference but sometimes they're clutch. Sometimes you get a miss when you really can't
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  afford a miss. Sometimes you get a doubler when you absolutely needed that in order to be
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  able to win and it's those moments that create really compelling memorable moments in the
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  game is that random to resolve element. So it's part of what makes the adventure part
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  of the game feel like an adventure right? It is not deterministic combat. By contrast like
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  I've talked a couple times recently about how I played Voidfall. Voidfall is very interesting
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  but it's deterministic combat. You know whether you're going to win before you go in or
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  not and I think that's fine and for a game as complicated as Voidfall, sure. I like it.
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  I like it the way it is but I do like the element of chance that goes into something like
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  Gloomhaven's hit deck. The chance of having your deck really reward you or really screw
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  you can is really satisfying and building into your play some wiggle room so that if you
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  do draw a miss you aren't totally screwed can be really fun. Now this is in contrast to my
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  general experience. I generally don't like roll to resolve or random to resolve but there
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  are some games where I find it pretty satisfying. Star Wars Rebellion is one where I really like
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  the way that you're maneuvering, you're doing all sorts of stuff that is not
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  randomized but every now and again there's a battle and the battle could go your way or
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  it might not and I find it pretty satisfying to have that little bit of luck in there.
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  Games that involve a significant amount of dice rolling also have that pleasure like occasionally
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  I'll play Axis and Allies with one of my neighbors and while that can be frustrating
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  on an individual battle like you have an individual battle you're like "oh man why didn't I survive
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  that! That's a real bummer." Most of the time the dice come out pretty close to what the law of averages
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  says they should, right? If you're supposed to win a third of if you're supposed to get a third
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  of these dice as success usually get between 20 and 40% of those dice as success and so because
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  the law of average because you roll a lot of dice in that game the law of averages come out in your
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  favor but I feel like in games that are simulating battle and war but having that element of luck
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  that element of randomness feels authentic to me so that's another thing that I really like about
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  the Gloomhaven system I like it has just the right amount of random to resolve. The next thing that I
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  want to comment on in Gloomhaven is customization and growth. I mentioned that you have a character and
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  they can grow there's some really interesting systems in play for as your character grows. Each
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  character has nine levels and kind of like a dungeon like a Dungeon & Dragon type role playing game
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  each time that you level up you get to gain experience and you get to gain or gain specialty and
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  you do that in two ways. First of all there's a first of all there's a check mark system where there's
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  a bunch of perks that you can get for your character you get to check off one of those perks. Each perk
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  gives you a slightly different benefit and that can affect you in different ways. For example my
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  character that I'm playing right now uses a lot of fire and wind magic elements and so one of the
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  things I've been taking as one of my bonuses are cards for my hit deck that not only help with my
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  attack but also boost the fire and the wind elements so that it's more common that I can play the
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  cards that use those and be able to take benefit from them. You know if I weren't using the cards that
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  did that if I were leaning in a different direction maybe I wouldn't take those perks early on I would
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  do something else instead. So that's one example of the kind of thing you can do. There's a whole bunch
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  of different stuff that you could choose in customizing your deck. The other thing in actually the
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  part that's even more compelling is each time that your character levels up you get to add a new card
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  to the pool of cards you might take with you on an adventure and this is some nice cruelty from
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  cruelty but also the possibility for specialization. The characters get two options for cards
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  for each level that they pass. So when you're level four or my character is just leveled up to level
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  five in a Frosthaven there are two level five cards that I can choose from and get to add one
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  to my deck or my pool of available cards. Now I'm also allowed to go back and look at all the other
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  cards that are below that so like if I don't really like either the level five cards I could go back
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  and add the other level four for example. But I can't I don't think I've ever passed on one of the
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  current level cards to choose a lower level one but you could. So again this gives you a lot of
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  room to customize and a lot of times if you go on boardgamegeek there are people who've written
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  whole things about different sets of cards you might take to really optimize what your characters can do.
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  Now we haven't gotten into that level because generally we play each we play through the game once
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  right we're not even our full journey through Frosthaven but I imagine once we're done with it
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  we're probably not going to start over and play again. Some people do. Some people have played
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  many times but that isn't really our approach. Customization and growth is the next thing I
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  really like about that game and that is a thing that really comes from role playing games you know you
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  see that in D&D you see that in legacy games a little bit but it's generally not super common in
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  other games. You know the only other game that I know that does that really well is Arkham Horror
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  the card game. In Arkham Horror you get experience after each adventure and you can use that experience
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  to buy new cards for your deck that make your deck stronger but other than that I don't know a lot of
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  games to do that because I mean campaign games but I haven't played a ton of those so there are
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  probably other campaign games that give you the ability to refine and grow your character over time
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  as well. So we're just about out of time the fourth characteristic that I really like is something that
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  come that I also see in legacy games and this is the reveal. The reveal is where there are components
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  of the game that you don't have access to at the beginning there and envelopes there and sticker
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  sheets there and boxes and you only get to look at them when the game tells you to open them up
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  and that is endlessly interesting. Every time the game tells you to open it up and look I love it
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  and I'm really enjoying the opportunity to do that occasionally so that's the fourth thing
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  like I said that's mostly from legacy games and I'm out of time so I'm not going to spend a lot
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  more time talking about that. Well hopefully you found this conversation about Frosthaven and
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  the other 'Haven games pretty interesting. If you're interested in trying them out I encourage you to
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  check out Gloomhaven Jaws of the Lion which is the cheapest way to get into the game or you could...
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  there are digital apps that would allow you to try the game it's very close to the online game although
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  the physical game although frankly it's harder. I don't know why maybe in the physical game people
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  fudge their things a little bit sometimes or get the rules wrong in ways that help them. The online
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  game doesn't do that and also never lets you take back a move or reconsider whereas often we're
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  playing and like oh I'm going to move to and then we look and like wait if I move to I can't get
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  where I want hold on I'm going to come up with something else. I don't think the game lets you
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  take things back so but if you're interested in trying out the system the digital version gives you
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  a lot of access to how the game works for much less than the cost of actually playing the game.
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  Well that's about it for me today I'm curious to know what do you think of Frosthaven,
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  Gloomhaven, Jaws of the Lion or Forgotten Circles. Head over to boardgamegeek guild 3269
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  and share your thoughts there. What do you think of these games? How often have you played them?
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  What should what else did I miss? What's great about them? Thanks for joining me on my walk today.
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  I hope your next walk is pleasant as mine was. Bye bye.
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  [Music]
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  [Music]