Latest / Deep Tech Germany – AI, Robotics & Frontier Innovation by Startuprad.io™ / HR Tech & the Future of Work: Zenjob's Automated Staffing
Transcript
- WEBVTT 00:00:04.917 --> 00:00:12.617 Welcome to StartupRad.io, your podcast and YouTube blog covering the German 00:00:12.617 --> 00:00:17.337 startup scene with news, interviews, and live events. 00:00:19.937 --> 00:00:24.037 Hello and welcome everybody. This is Joe from StartupRaid.io, 00:00:24.177 --> 00:00:29.037 your startup podcast and YouTube blog from Germany, as well as the world's number 00:00:29.037 --> 00:00:31.637 one internet radio talk station, 00:00:31.897 --> 00:00:36.337 Startup.Radio, the number one program for all tech entrepreneurs. 00:00:36.537 --> 00:00:40.537 Today's episode is once again sponsored by is StartupRaven.com, 00:00:40.697 --> 00:00:45.917 the best way to get to know and find new investors. 00:00:46.197 --> 00:00:49.637 You can sign up for early access down here in the show notes. 00:00:49.757 --> 00:00:55.097 That all said, I would like to welcome the co-founder of Zenjob, 00:00:55.237 --> 00:00:56.777 Frederik. Hey, how are you doing? 00:00:57.237 --> 00:01:02.337 Hi, Joe. Thanks a lot for the invitation. I'm doing great and looking forward for our conversation. 00:01:03.737 --> 00:01:14.777 Yes, of course. course. As always, before we get into talking about what Zenjob 00:01:14.777 --> 00:01:18.097 is, what Zenjob does, and what it wants to do in the future, 00:01:18.537 --> 00:01:22.017 let us first talk a little bit about you. 00:01:23.277 --> 00:01:29.577 I've realized you spent a whole year in school abroad when we talked before the interview. 00:01:29.577 --> 00:01:32.717 You yeah that's uh that's correct um 35 years 00:01:32.717 --> 00:01:35.737 old uh born and raised in hamburg and while 00:01:35.737 --> 00:01:38.737 i was in high school i had the great opportunity and 00:01:38.737 --> 00:01:43.697 chance to spend a year abroad actually in the us in new hampshire uh two hours 00:01:43.697 --> 00:01:49.717 drive to boston and uh i mean for me it was a great opportunity because some 00:01:49.717 --> 00:01:54.557 people in school got able to you know go to the uk or to spend some time in 00:01:54.557 --> 00:01:56.117 new zealand and And for me, 00:01:56.137 --> 00:02:01.237 that was always my dream to go to the U.S., was always fascinated also by sports 00:02:01.237 --> 00:02:03.117 as well as entrepreneurship, actually. 00:02:03.937 --> 00:02:07.657 My dad, when he was young, also used the opportunity to work for a couple of 00:02:07.657 --> 00:02:12.477 years in the U.S. And yeah, that's why I got the chance when I was 17 to spend a year there. 00:02:12.797 --> 00:02:15.677 Okay, there are two burning questions right here. 00:02:15.737 --> 00:02:20.257 Number one, if you've been around Boston, are you now addicted to Krispy Kreme donuts? 00:02:20.257 --> 00:02:23.997 Nuts i had a couple um but 00:02:23.997 --> 00:02:27.137 i have to say my love was more for the boston celtics uh 00:02:27.137 --> 00:02:32.857 than for the the crispy ones but yes uh especially the time in boston as well 00:02:32.857 --> 00:02:36.837 as in the the the wider range of massachusetts and new hampshire was quite quite 00:02:36.837 --> 00:02:42.237 nice ah i see and that would have been the second question what was your favorite 00:02:42.237 --> 00:02:46.597 team um boston celtics uh national basketball Basketball Association, 00:02:47.097 --> 00:02:49.197 NBA, ICCC. 00:02:49.277 --> 00:02:56.937 And then from what I see, you came back and for whatever reason, you studied law. 00:02:58.776 --> 00:03:03.576 Yeah, I mean, the motivation actually was also a little bit driven by my grandfather. 00:03:04.236 --> 00:03:09.556 He was defending criminals and he was always a guy I looked up to and I very 00:03:09.556 --> 00:03:14.116 much liked the way also his logic works and how he uses words and, 00:03:14.236 --> 00:03:17.956 you know, math was and still is not really my strong suit. 00:03:18.056 --> 00:03:21.596 That's also why I thought two birds with one stone, let's go for this. 00:03:21.596 --> 00:03:27.456 Is, but always a little bit with the idea to go into the economic side of things 00:03:27.456 --> 00:03:30.676 with a background in law and not so much of being a lawyer or, 00:03:30.756 --> 00:03:32.216 you know, pursuing a dream there. 00:03:32.356 --> 00:03:35.076 I still very much have great respect for that. 00:03:35.236 --> 00:03:38.016 And I also have a lot of friends actually who went down that road. 00:03:38.116 --> 00:03:42.876 But for me, it was always pretty clear that I would love to get the opportunity to be an entrepreneur. 00:03:43.056 --> 00:03:47.316 But yeah, that's why I started in the very beautiful Passau, 00:03:47.396 --> 00:03:51.856 which is a small city in Bavaria, spending some time in university, 00:03:52.076 --> 00:03:55.116 but also spending a lot of time in the mountains. 00:03:57.236 --> 00:04:03.216 Sounds good. And your grandfather, he apparently was then a criminal trial lawyer, right? 00:04:03.656 --> 00:04:08.956 Correct. Correct. Correct. Okay, I see. And then you started interning, 00:04:09.016 --> 00:04:12.756 for example, exit capital partners. 00:04:12.756 --> 00:04:17.456 You have been entrepreneur in residence with 00:04:17.456 --> 00:04:20.796 Atlantic Labs would also have pretty interesting 00:04:20.796 --> 00:04:23.956 next to you yes we're getting there next to 00:04:23.956 --> 00:04:27.156 your job at ten job and you 00:04:27.156 --> 00:04:34.236 are member of the board of directors of bitcom and we do have a vast audience 00:04:34.236 --> 00:04:38.756 here in the DACH region but I'm not even sure if most people people listening 00:04:38.756 --> 00:04:44.416 to us here from Austria or Switzerland would be able to say, what is Bitkom? 00:04:44.576 --> 00:04:47.116 Since you're a director, can you give us a little introduction? 00:04:48.616 --> 00:04:54.736 Sure. I mean, this is honestly also something where I was quite glad to join a couple of years ago. 00:04:54.876 --> 00:04:58.116 Bitkom is a number one digital union, if you want, 00:04:58.236 --> 00:05:02.136 here in Germany and represent huge corporates 00:05:02.136 --> 00:05:05.196 up to small startups by ensuring that the 00:05:05.196 --> 00:05:08.256 politicians don't forget about us and that they don't forget about 00:05:08.256 --> 00:05:11.096 digitization because especially in germany this is 00:05:11.096 --> 00:05:14.016 often an issue and that's why i 00:05:14.016 --> 00:05:16.796 was able to spend some time there also in the board i'm actually 00:05:16.796 --> 00:05:20.376 not in the board anymore something's something also i think i need to update 00:05:20.376 --> 00:05:25.576 on linkedin where i'm sure you grabbed it from but we are still in a very good 00:05:25.576 --> 00:05:29.596 exchange with bitcom and sometimes joining panels also to represent obviously 00:05:29.596 --> 00:05:34.596 any topic which is related to the future of work work. But yeah, 00:05:34.656 --> 00:05:35.876 that is the, that's the Bitcoin. 00:05:36.796 --> 00:05:40.516 That is exactly the point where we are getting to. 00:05:41.909 --> 00:05:47.269 Originally, when I first heard the name of your company, Zenjob, 00:05:47.569 --> 00:05:53.549 I was thinking some kind of platform where you can hire yoga instructors. 00:05:53.889 --> 00:05:55.809 How did you come up with that name? 00:05:56.429 --> 00:05:59.669 That's actually a good idea. I mean, honestly, we don't have a job on the platform, 00:05:59.889 --> 00:06:02.929 but I can imagine also that lots of students would actually very much enjoy 00:06:02.929 --> 00:06:06.009 this, either going to those classes or being an instructor. 00:06:06.769 --> 00:06:10.789 How did we come up? I think there are two stories to this. So first, 00:06:10.869 --> 00:06:15.289 there is the very romantic story of us trying to figure out what could be a 00:06:15.289 --> 00:06:17.469 name which represents what we have in mind. 00:06:17.649 --> 00:06:22.289 And that was when it comes to flexible jobs, it's always very stressful. 00:06:22.829 --> 00:06:26.369 Also, remembering our studies, we did a lot of different kind of student jobs. 00:06:26.569 --> 00:06:30.509 I was working for one and a half years in a startup for a very small startup, 00:06:30.669 --> 00:06:33.409 five, six people for mobile espresso bars. 00:06:33.409 --> 00:06:37.949 But then my other co-founder, Fritz, for example, he did a lot of those very 00:06:37.949 --> 00:06:44.669 classic student jobs, night auditor at a hotel there, and then carrying out 00:06:44.669 --> 00:06:46.029 newspapers at another day. 00:06:46.189 --> 00:06:50.969 And then Gian, on the other hand, he was the one freelancing already in the IT space. 00:06:51.249 --> 00:06:55.529 So we saw this fairly diverse world of work, but at the same time, 00:06:55.549 --> 00:06:57.609 every one of us felt this pain. 00:06:57.769 --> 00:07:01.289 And we wanted to do something where it's very seamless. You have an app. 00:07:01.289 --> 00:07:05.089 You just go somewhere, you work there, and everything else needs to be handled. 00:07:05.249 --> 00:07:08.369 And that's a little bit where the zen was coming from, to be in this balance 00:07:08.369 --> 00:07:10.389 and to be in this work-life balance. 00:07:11.029 --> 00:07:15.649 And especially when it comes to easy work, where also sometimes, 00:07:15.789 --> 00:07:19.469 you know, when you work in a restaurant, the tone might be tough and you are also very happy. 00:07:19.669 --> 00:07:23.629 I mean, we can relate to this also, you know, when you have done with a stressful 00:07:23.629 --> 00:07:26.149 shift that you come home. So that was the zen in the job. 00:07:26.869 --> 00:07:30.609 And then secondly, we also wanted to find something which works international. 00:07:31.289 --> 00:07:34.289 We started the company also with a vision to internationalize it. 00:07:34.349 --> 00:07:36.189 And that's why we very much like Zenjob. 00:07:36.349 --> 00:07:39.809 The second part of the story, though, is that at some point you sit there with 00:07:39.809 --> 00:07:41.509 a list with a lot of different words. 00:07:41.589 --> 00:07:46.709 And you do a lot of those startup bingo stuff with Helpondo and I think Workadoo 00:07:46.709 --> 00:07:48.209 were other names as well. 00:07:48.369 --> 00:07:52.849 And Zenjob was on that list as well. And then we also were asking our friends 00:07:52.849 --> 00:07:54.589 and our first investors what they think. 00:07:54.749 --> 00:07:58.129 And then also someone was saying, yeah, then why don't you go for Zenjob? 00:07:58.129 --> 00:08:02.409 And we said, okay, thanks a lot. Then someone also pushed us a little bit in the direction. 00:08:03.689 --> 00:08:09.649 I have one question. What was the worst name you came up for the company? 00:08:10.329 --> 00:08:15.709 Oh, well, I would say in hindsight, Helpondo, I think, is pretty weak. 00:08:16.629 --> 00:08:20.609 I don't remember. I have to grab out the list again. I don't remember all of 00:08:20.609 --> 00:08:23.529 them. But Helpondo was for sure something where we laughed a lot about. 00:08:24.789 --> 00:08:30.629 Abby, you choose Zenjob. My understanding, you already hinted it, 00:08:30.669 --> 00:08:38.089 so it's not necessarily a competitor of the large. 00:08:39.298 --> 00:08:42.458 Platforms or boards where you can post 00:08:42.458 --> 00:08:45.598 a permanent job for somebody who graduated 00:08:45.598 --> 00:08:49.218 from university it's rather addressing students 00:08:49.218 --> 00:08:55.638 how did you come up with this kind of niche idea yes absolutely right um it's 00:08:55.638 --> 00:09:00.858 not a competitor to the indeeds or the stepstones of the world um but when we 00:09:00.858 --> 00:09:05.338 when we screened um in the beginning where we when we screened what's out there 00:09:05.338 --> 00:09:08.038 in let's say say, like HR tech or in the HR space, 00:09:08.298 --> 00:09:11.898 we saw that there are a lot of old players and very young players, 00:09:12.038 --> 00:09:16.658 startups trying to establish themselves in the classifieds model, 00:09:16.878 --> 00:09:19.418 in the commission-based model. 00:09:20.198 --> 00:09:24.658 And, you know, we thought we can also try, of course, to find our sweet spot there. 00:09:24.778 --> 00:09:27.498 But what is actually the problem, what we believe is out there? 00:09:27.618 --> 00:09:31.118 And that's the one I mentioned earlier, is about you don't want to deal with anything. 00:09:31.278 --> 00:09:34.058 And it doesn't really matter whether that's on the b2c side so as 00:09:34.058 --> 00:09:37.398 we call them on our talent side student side or if it's 00:09:37.398 --> 00:09:40.478 on the b2b side for customers if it 00:09:40.478 --> 00:09:43.438 comes to flexible work if it comes to someone 00:09:43.438 --> 00:09:46.798 is ill someone is on holidays there 00:09:46.798 --> 00:09:49.698 is a seasonal peak christmas business summer business on the b2b side 00:09:49.698 --> 00:09:53.378 you just need someone to help you fast highly automated 00:09:53.378 --> 00:09:56.238 with good quality and then on the b2c side at 00:09:56.238 --> 00:09:59.078 the same thing you know you're sitting there on the weekend and you realize i 00:09:59.078 --> 00:10:01.778 actually want to go abroad i want 00:10:01.778 --> 00:10:04.678 to do on holidays i have a present in mind or maybe there's something 00:10:04.678 --> 00:10:08.038 is missing for my rent i really i just want to work 00:10:08.038 --> 00:10:11.598 tomorrow and that's why we were investigating this 00:10:11.598 --> 00:10:14.638 space of temp work so where you do employ 00:10:14.638 --> 00:10:17.698 the people because we wanted to automate all 00:10:17.698 --> 00:10:20.738 of the process behind it and of course we also participate we wanted 00:10:20.738 --> 00:10:23.558 to participate as much as we can within the value chain 00:10:23.558 --> 00:10:29.258 and we saw again you have the dinosaurs you also have a few younger players 00:10:29.258 --> 00:10:34.178 but it wasn't a field where you saw a lot of tech and that's why we thought 00:10:34.178 --> 00:10:38.458 okay let's start with this very very heavy tech focus which is also still there 00:10:38.458 --> 00:10:42.118 after eight years and we went from there. 00:10:44.178 --> 00:10:50.098 When I go through your website, I see, for example, job offers in retail, 00:10:50.538 --> 00:10:58.758 on events, and you already hinted like in restaurants, bars, and so on and so forth. 00:10:58.938 --> 00:11:03.338 So basically, if I understood it right, just check in here with you. 00:11:03.838 --> 00:11:10.198 You are the owner of a bar and somebody calls in sick and he'll be sick for 00:11:10.198 --> 00:11:15.098 a whole week, but you have a very important business or your most important 00:11:15.098 --> 00:11:17.078 business is done during the weekend. 00:11:17.298 --> 00:11:22.518 And so you could go post on Zenjob somebody to cover Friday, Saturday evening. 00:11:22.838 --> 00:11:24.938 Would that be a case where you can use it? 00:11:25.298 --> 00:11:32.338 That would be a case. That is a case. However, also to be transparent, this is a rare case. 00:11:32.598 --> 00:11:36.638 So what's been happening also the last couple of years, we work with a a lot 00:11:36.638 --> 00:11:41.118 of those huge corporates in Germany from retailers, food retail, 00:11:41.278 --> 00:11:47.338 fashion retail, logistic companies, also hospitality, gastro business, and so on. 00:11:47.438 --> 00:11:51.598 But of course, we also try to really aim for the sexy big whales, 00:11:51.698 --> 00:11:54.678 I think was the name we called them a couple of years ago, when we're trying 00:11:54.678 --> 00:11:57.118 to identify again, our ideal customer profile. 00:11:57.418 --> 00:12:02.038 And we very much love to work with those big corporates, of course, 00:12:02.058 --> 00:12:04.078 also, because we're interested in the share of wallet. 00:12:04.078 --> 00:12:07.318 It um but at the same time yes uh your your 00:12:07.318 --> 00:12:10.138 example is also a case there is there could be a bar 00:12:10.138 --> 00:12:17.138 approaching us i think if it just be one bar one employee one talent for one 00:12:17.138 --> 00:12:22.378 shift once every three months then we probably won't do it at least not now 00:12:22.378 --> 00:12:27.878 um we do look for scale uh but yes otherwise you're absolutely correct. 00:12:28.378 --> 00:12:32.598 And who is then your average customer? 00:12:32.778 --> 00:12:39.078 So you basically sign a contract with four or five large logistic companies, 00:12:39.378 --> 00:12:47.698 and then they have access to your system and their post, not necessarily jobs, but actual shifts. 00:12:48.058 --> 00:12:55.178 Is it something like that? Or can you have a student job through the summer 00:12:55.178 --> 00:12:56.698 also through your platform? 00:12:56.998 --> 00:13:01.918 Where are the dimensions here? I mean, first of all, I think you would not post 00:13:01.918 --> 00:13:05.758 it in the classic way of how you would post it also on a classifieds model. 00:13:06.058 --> 00:13:09.898 You would rather enter it in our company app, company software, 00:13:10.158 --> 00:13:16.378 Buchungsportal in German, something basically where all our automation So what 00:13:16.378 --> 00:13:18.378 was for us, and still is very important. 00:13:19.053 --> 00:13:23.413 Tech. Tech is something which is almost like AI nowadays, right? 00:13:23.513 --> 00:13:27.293 It's always a term everyone wants to use and know it's important and so on. 00:13:27.453 --> 00:13:32.073 And we thought eight years ago, if we really want to build a new play in that 00:13:32.073 --> 00:13:36.613 field, then we really need to keep our focus, which also means sometimes saying 00:13:36.613 --> 00:13:41.673 no to customers, saying no to potential revenues, because we didn't invent something new. 00:13:41.933 --> 00:13:44.993 Tempwork is something which has been there already hundreds of years. 00:13:44.993 --> 00:13:47.773 But what wasn't there before is to 00:13:47.773 --> 00:13:50.673 have it that tech heavy and that automation heavy so that means 00:13:50.673 --> 00:13:53.513 when a company joins Zenjob they need 00:13:53.513 --> 00:13:56.533 to accept our company app and that's where they would place the 00:13:56.533 --> 00:14:00.613 potential shifts we would then give this or put 00:14:00.613 --> 00:14:03.873 it basically in our system and the automated matching 00:14:03.873 --> 00:14:06.873 starts and algorithm-based we decide who 00:14:06.873 --> 00:14:09.673 should work there who's most qualified who wants to do the 00:14:09.673 --> 00:14:12.693 job what's the sweet spot and so on and when that talent gets 00:14:12.693 --> 00:14:15.653 matched and the talent applies we would then 00:14:15.653 --> 00:14:18.993 say hey yes congratulations you got the job they would automatically 00:14:18.993 --> 00:14:21.753 also sign the contract digitally no interference from our 00:14:21.753 --> 00:14:24.853 side also the company doesn't choose the talent 00:14:24.853 --> 00:14:29.613 this just happens on very rare occasions because we say hey company if you have 00:14:29.613 --> 00:14:34.553 those requirements it's our job to understand who should come there and if we 00:14:34.553 --> 00:14:37.573 do a shitty job then of course you will stop working with us anyway at some 00:14:37.573 --> 00:14:41.053 point but you shouldn't interfere in the middle by saying you know for that 00:14:41.053 --> 00:14:43.253 one or two shifts I really want to select the people. 00:14:43.593 --> 00:14:46.853 And then the talent goes to the job, they do check-in and check-out, 00:14:47.013 --> 00:14:51.353 they get a rating, they rate the company, they get paid out 50% after two days 00:14:51.353 --> 00:14:52.673 and the rest at the end of the month. 00:14:52.773 --> 00:14:56.033 All of those steps, they're not just digital, but they're really automated. 00:14:56.193 --> 00:15:00.813 So we're talking about 95% of all jobs run fully automated through our system. 00:15:01.313 --> 00:15:05.213 So this is where it's basically a little bit different towards what you would 00:15:05.213 --> 00:15:06.593 see with traditional players. 00:15:07.746 --> 00:15:14.306 I see. And what is kind of the volume we're talking about here? 00:15:14.426 --> 00:15:20.986 If you do have like a sexy whale, I like this term, coming to you and how many 00:15:20.986 --> 00:15:26.046 jobs or how many talents, how many people are they looking for? 00:15:26.126 --> 00:15:31.006 For what time frame? Yeah, I mean, this varies a lot, to be honest. 00:15:31.206 --> 00:15:36.046 So what we do is when we try to identify if this is an ideal customer for us, 00:15:36.086 --> 00:15:40.026 then the customer needs to fulfill a lot of different criteria. 00:15:40.126 --> 00:15:43.966 Often it also comes down to the location, for example. If there is a logistic 00:15:43.966 --> 00:15:47.946 company in the middle of Germany and we don't have talents there, then we will not do it. 00:15:48.006 --> 00:15:50.386 It doesn't help anyone, basically. We can't promise. 00:15:50.746 --> 00:15:55.426 If the B2B price is not sufficient, it will be also not helpful Because at the 00:15:55.426 --> 00:15:58.886 same time, we want to pay good salaries also to our talents. 00:15:59.046 --> 00:16:03.926 If the company is just located in one location, it will be more tricky than 00:16:03.926 --> 00:16:06.666 if there is a parent company with 100 or 200 locations. 00:16:06.906 --> 00:16:11.546 So this is what's driving the motivation for us to work also with a customer. 00:16:11.786 --> 00:16:16.966 There is not a specific revenue number or there's not a specific time frame. 00:16:17.026 --> 00:16:20.826 Because with Zenjob, you can actually also come around if you just need someone 00:16:20.826 --> 00:16:24.246 for one shift. But of course, at the same time, we look at the prospect and 00:16:24.246 --> 00:16:27.226 what else is going to be out there for the next couple of months to ensure that 00:16:27.226 --> 00:16:30.346 we will that we can do enough revenue with that customer. 00:16:30.966 --> 00:16:34.226 I see. And the other side, how? 00:16:35.131 --> 00:16:41.891 Do you find the students do you just post on the boards of the respective universities. 00:16:42.991 --> 00:16:49.511 What's the approach there no we actually invest most of our talent acquisition costs they go into, 00:16:50.571 --> 00:16:56.231 paid paid marketing so we are very active on google we are very active on facebook 00:16:56.231 --> 00:17:02.251 instagram we are very active in general like in social media but for us it's 00:17:02.251 --> 00:17:04.751 very heavily driven by by paid marketing, actually. 00:17:05.571 --> 00:17:08.911 We also thought a lot, especially in the first two or three years, 00:17:08.991 --> 00:17:11.291 about what about being at universities? 00:17:11.531 --> 00:17:16.851 What about having the party bus who goes around and is in our purple color, 00:17:17.011 --> 00:17:22.091 driving around, doing some little gatherings, parties, and acquiring talents at the same time? 00:17:22.151 --> 00:17:25.891 But we then realized this is all beautiful and great for the brand. 00:17:26.011 --> 00:17:30.451 But at the same time, if a talent wants to work, they will enter in Google a 00:17:30.451 --> 00:17:32.171 side job in Berlin, gastro. 00:17:32.171 --> 00:17:35.231 And they go and they will look for it so for us 00:17:35.231 --> 00:17:38.251 paid marketing is actually our by far our 00:17:38.251 --> 00:17:41.451 number one channel i see 00:17:41.451 --> 00:17:45.951 so you want to do party bus and ended up with instagram yes 00:17:45.951 --> 00:17:48.631 and i hope the party bus still comes back because i 00:17:48.631 --> 00:17:51.611 think there's for sure at least 00:17:51.611 --> 00:17:54.751 you know i would love to see that we invest a little bit here and there again 00:17:54.751 --> 00:18:00.371 also in the brand but if you are focused a lot on kpis eyes what we are and 00:18:00.371 --> 00:18:05.571 focus a lot on unit economics then the party bus will always have a it's tough 00:18:05.571 --> 00:18:09.431 for the party bus to compete with paid marketing where you just spend a euro 00:18:09.431 --> 00:18:11.371 and you immediately see the exact outcome. 00:18:12.410 --> 00:18:18.790 I see. So we now get a rough understanding what you guys are doing. 00:18:18.930 --> 00:18:21.710 In how many cities are you currently present in Germany? 00:18:22.610 --> 00:18:27.010 We rather call it a region. So we are in 40 to 45 regions. 00:18:27.670 --> 00:18:33.190 Sometimes that equals a city. Sometimes that equals a rather smaller region, 00:18:33.290 --> 00:18:37.930 meaning the surroundings of Munich would be also allocated to Munich. 00:18:38.010 --> 00:18:40.830 But you would see us more or less Germany-wide. 00:18:42.410 --> 00:18:49.670 Okay. I found an article about you from late last year, 2023, 00:18:50.110 --> 00:18:55.910 and you said you are looking to reach 100 million revenues in 2023. 00:18:56.270 --> 00:18:59.930 Now, 2023 is past. Did you pass the threshold? 00:19:01.850 --> 00:19:04.670 Well, I mean, I can comment on that already, but I 00:19:04.670 --> 00:19:07.770 can say that also 2023 was obviously 00:19:07.770 --> 00:19:11.410 also a challenging year for us that means instead of 00:19:11.410 --> 00:19:14.510 focusing so much on top line as we did before where we 00:19:14.510 --> 00:19:17.890 were also focusing a lot on profitability and on tech that 00:19:17.890 --> 00:19:21.830 started already actually in the beginning of 22 even before 00:19:21.830 --> 00:19:25.190 putin invaded the ukraine we thought after seven 00:19:25.190 --> 00:19:28.050 years six seven years of zen job you know it's really time also 00:19:28.050 --> 00:19:30.930 about having that shift having the shift on technology 00:19:30.930 --> 00:19:33.810 and profitability and then suck a 00:19:33.810 --> 00:19:36.850 couple of months later also the mindset shifted completely right 00:19:36.850 --> 00:19:39.730 i mean this was also crazy to see in this whole startup scale up 00:19:39.730 --> 00:19:43.770 world and on the vc side how the investors changed the view on growth versus 00:19:43.770 --> 00:19:47.030 profitability and we were quite lucky that we kicked off the process before 00:19:47.030 --> 00:19:52.750 anyway and we continue to do so in 23 so that's why we now have those technical 00:19:52.750 --> 00:19:58.530 uh advancement advantages like the 95 automation rate and but But I think in top line, 00:19:58.610 --> 00:20:01.690 there is still something to push for. 00:20:02.650 --> 00:20:10.290 I see. So it was amazing. I was also wondering when I've seen when I. 00:20:11.474 --> 00:20:14.474 Prepared for this interview how have you guys 00:20:14.474 --> 00:20:17.834 been dealing with the lockdown during corona this 00:20:17.834 --> 00:20:21.234 must have been a pretty tough time for you yes and 00:20:21.234 --> 00:20:24.454 no that means that in the beginning we lost almost 70 00:20:24.454 --> 00:20:27.094 of all revenues and we were a little 00:20:27.094 --> 00:20:30.054 bit devastated as everyone was and we didn't know where the 00:20:30.054 --> 00:20:32.874 rest uh the revenue is going to come from and we're thinking 00:20:32.874 --> 00:20:35.814 about kurt's abide here in germany a mechanism to ensure that 00:20:35.814 --> 00:20:38.894 companies can survive and also that employees can survive 00:20:38.894 --> 00:20:41.714 but eventually this turned around 00:20:41.714 --> 00:20:44.454 very quickly and you know in the first 00:20:44.454 --> 00:20:47.194 wave it was all about the retail it was all about 00:20:47.194 --> 00:20:50.134 the toilet paper everyone suddenly needed here in Germany and 00:20:50.134 --> 00:20:55.374 so we were actually very active within the retail space and we were able to 00:20:55.374 --> 00:20:59.994 compensate also the loss we had in revenues then in the second wave it was a 00:20:59.994 --> 00:21:05.434 lot about e-commerce and logistics which we made a lot of revenues we actually 00:21:05.434 --> 00:21:09.354 also grew from 2020 to 21 by 150% in revenues. 00:21:09.614 --> 00:21:15.254 And then in the third wave, we were also very active with the government, 00:21:15.594 --> 00:21:18.354 you know, we supported a lot with the vaccination centers, for example. 00:21:19.694 --> 00:21:23.094 And then we also had gorillas and fling. So the 00:21:23.094 --> 00:21:26.234 quick commerce players where we also supported a 00:21:26.234 --> 00:21:29.474 lot and still are so we were actually lucky that 00:21:29.474 --> 00:21:32.734 I think our marketplace approach was giving us 00:21:32.734 --> 00:21:35.834 the opportunity also to adapt very quickly so uh 00:21:35.834 --> 00:21:39.134 we i would say what even you know we gained 00:21:39.134 --> 00:21:42.074 uh during covet we gained revenues um but 00:21:42.074 --> 00:21:44.954 we gained also confidence uh in uh the 00:21:44.954 --> 00:21:48.274 resilience of our business model and um 00:21:48.274 --> 00:21:51.974 i've been i've been 00:21:51.974 --> 00:21:55.714 looking what you guys are currently 00:21:55.714 --> 00:21:58.834 doing and i've been thinking what do you want 00:21:58.834 --> 00:22:02.674 to do in the future so I was I was 00:22:02.674 --> 00:22:12.214 seeing that you already use AI already is used to evaluate CVS what will be 00:22:12.214 --> 00:22:19.754 the future where this is heading and of course curious will you provide the 00:22:19.754 --> 00:22:22.554 same service for full-time jobs yeah Yeah, 00:22:22.554 --> 00:22:24.994 I mean, I think there are two things. 00:22:25.074 --> 00:22:30.774 So because you just raised the point also on AI, I think when it comes to product 00:22:30.774 --> 00:22:36.034 and engineering, when it comes to tech, we will always continue to be on the 00:22:36.034 --> 00:22:39.774 forefront when it comes to HR tech in our space. 00:22:40.094 --> 00:22:45.694 That means we will, you mentioned already AI also in CVs, a lot of stuff which 00:22:45.694 --> 00:22:47.094 has happened also within the company. 00:22:47.094 --> 00:22:52.254 For example, in our customer care unit, we also now use a lot of AI also to 00:22:52.254 --> 00:22:55.454 ensure that we scan all the right documents in the right fashion, for example. 00:22:55.574 --> 00:23:00.054 And of course, also to improve even the matching of the talents to the jobs. 00:23:01.121 --> 00:23:04.001 Outside of this i think you know right now we are also 00:23:04.001 --> 00:23:07.061 looking a little bit at the macroeconomic climate and 00:23:07.061 --> 00:23:10.581 we are very much focused as i said on the profitability and 00:23:10.581 --> 00:23:13.521 to accelerate growth again and then also to 00:23:13.521 --> 00:23:16.501 see when the climate is picking up again and i 00:23:16.501 --> 00:23:19.481 think when it is then we were ready and 00:23:19.481 --> 00:23:22.501 we will be ready again and what and what that means is that 00:23:22.501 --> 00:23:25.561 we want to internationalize the company again we were 00:23:25.561 --> 00:23:28.681 we were already international for a very brief period period 00:23:28.681 --> 00:23:31.501 in the netherlands for example but then also 00:23:31.501 --> 00:23:34.681 in late 22 we decided with a 00:23:34.681 --> 00:23:37.801 focus here on profitability that we will stop this 00:23:37.801 --> 00:23:40.681 for now but that didn't change the ambition to bring 00:23:40.681 --> 00:23:44.821 this company international we raised over 100 million also now in fundraising 00:23:44.821 --> 00:23:48.301 over the couple of years and i think it's very clear that we really want to 00:23:48.301 --> 00:23:52.001 build the number one player in europe when it comes to flexible work and therefore 00:23:52.001 --> 00:23:56.041 we want to internationalize the company again we are very much focused on students 00:23:56.041 --> 00:23:59.181 But at the same time, we see that this product must be made for everyone, 00:23:59.301 --> 00:24:03.501 meaning from someone being in school up to a pensioner staying at home, mom or dad. 00:24:04.101 --> 00:24:07.481 If you need some money on the side or you just want to do something, 00:24:07.601 --> 00:24:11.161 you should have an easy app where you can say, you know, whatever kind of job you want to do. 00:24:11.461 --> 00:24:15.101 And then I think lastly, what is also interesting for us, the length of the 00:24:15.101 --> 00:24:16.761 job and the qualification of the job. 00:24:16.761 --> 00:24:23.741 So we already launched a product six to 12 months ago, which we call Zenjob Pro, 00:24:23.981 --> 00:24:29.621 where we also offer jobs which have longer duration, meaning up to a year, 00:24:29.701 --> 00:24:34.521 one to nine months, and not just like the shift-based model, if you want. 00:24:34.521 --> 00:24:38.561 And that is something we also want to continue as a value proposition towards 00:24:38.561 --> 00:24:40.881 the B2C as well as to the B2B side. 00:24:41.081 --> 00:24:44.921 And, of course, with that also to provide more qualified jobs, 00:24:45.121 --> 00:24:46.821 to make it even more specific. 00:24:47.001 --> 00:24:50.001 Let's say, you know, you start your studies and you have the first, 00:24:50.121 --> 00:24:51.061 second, third semester. 00:24:52.061 --> 00:24:58.381 You maybe are looking for those easy jobs for the events for a Rolling Stones 00:24:58.381 --> 00:25:02.761 concert in Hamburg or whatever, helping out in a retail shop. 00:25:02.761 --> 00:25:05.661 But when you are in the fourth, fifth, sixth semester, and let's say you study 00:25:05.661 --> 00:25:10.261 marketing and you want to work in a startup in marketing as a working student, 00:25:10.461 --> 00:25:14.981 then that should be also feasible via ZenJob. And then you're done with your studies. 00:25:15.081 --> 00:25:17.761 And then maybe you also need your long-term commitment. 00:25:17.901 --> 00:25:20.321 At least for five years, maybe you want to stay at one employer. 00:25:20.461 --> 00:25:22.961 Then that should be also done via ZenJob. 00:25:23.041 --> 00:25:26.001 So this is rather something which we want to tackle in the next, 00:25:26.041 --> 00:25:29.201 let's say, two to five years. 00:25:29.201 --> 00:25:35.761 But in the next six to 18 months, I think it will be still a lot about seeing 00:25:35.761 --> 00:25:41.001 also how, you know, everything around us is hopefully changing for the good of it again. 00:25:42.361 --> 00:25:47.121 When you were talking about that, I remember from the beginning of our interview, 00:25:47.421 --> 00:25:54.221 you told us that only on very rare occasions, the employer is actually choosing the talent. 00:25:54.461 --> 00:26:00.661 Could you see a few years down the road, you hiring people for full-time position 00:26:00.661 --> 00:26:02.721 after university, as you said, 00:26:02.941 --> 00:26:08.901 just leaving it to you and not being directly involved in the hiring? 00:26:09.601 --> 00:26:13.701 It's absolutely a possibility. I think, you know, one of the things I would 00:26:13.701 --> 00:26:17.281 think my co-founder also still has it always on his on his wall in his office. 00:26:17.501 --> 00:26:21.981 The focus is about staying no from Steve Jobs. I think this is something which 00:26:21.981 --> 00:26:27.221 as a mantra we were trying to bring to the company, to the management again and again and again, 00:26:27.301 --> 00:26:33.281 because one of the great opportunities is also one of the big threats we have. There is a huge market. 00:26:33.861 --> 00:26:36.841 We're talking about the labor market for us. it's not also so 00:26:36.841 --> 00:26:39.881 much about temp work but it's really about everything which 00:26:39.881 --> 00:26:42.661 is more or less related to flexible work to part-time work you're 00:26:42.661 --> 00:26:45.641 talking about 50 billion in revenues in germany 500 00:26:45.641 --> 00:26:48.761 billion in revenues within europe so this 00:26:48.761 --> 00:26:53.821 is already quite huge and if zen job would just you know grab a little share 00:26:53.821 --> 00:27:00.241 of that pie would be mind-blowing and that's why i think if you ask me now i 00:27:00.241 --> 00:27:04.281 think there is enough to do already with the four different pillars i mentioned 00:27:04.281 --> 00:27:07.421 before before, but still, you are completely right. 00:27:07.581 --> 00:27:11.221 You know, I think that is the thing what we need to see also every year again 00:27:11.221 --> 00:27:15.661 and again, what is really the best opportunity for us? Where should we go for? 00:27:15.761 --> 00:27:20.081 What's the thing also students are looking for? What's the thing companies are looking for? 00:27:20.161 --> 00:27:24.221 Think about this huge problem we are having in Germany, also within Europe when 00:27:24.221 --> 00:27:26.401 it comes to the balance of the labor market. 00:27:26.981 --> 00:27:30.341 This is gonna be one of the biggest challenge, at least in Germany, 00:27:30.461 --> 00:27:32.601 but I would assume also in general in Europe, 00:27:33.170 --> 00:27:36.570 How are we going to ensure that we have enough employees on the market? 00:27:37.010 --> 00:27:42.210 We are failing with immigration of qualified workers. 00:27:42.570 --> 00:27:46.710 Now, next level, it's not just going to be about qualified workers anymore. It's about workers. 00:27:46.890 --> 00:27:53.410 It's Arbeitskräftemangel, not Fachkräftemangel, which is already also mentioned by our government. 00:27:54.870 --> 00:27:59.590 So this is going to be, you know, I think the CEO of Stepstone, 00:27:59.690 --> 00:28:02.530 like a big company from from Germany, which belongs to Axel Springer, 00:28:02.610 --> 00:28:05.710 similar to Indeed, he was also mentioning that this is going to be the biggest 00:28:05.710 --> 00:28:09.110 threat since World War II when it comes to economic growth, 00:28:09.370 --> 00:28:12.050 just the sheer shortage of workers. 00:28:12.430 --> 00:28:16.290 So I think that is something which is this overarching theme, 00:28:16.410 --> 00:28:20.510 which is also driving us and everything which can solve a little bit this problem 00:28:20.510 --> 00:28:21.690 is something we would go for. 00:28:24.810 --> 00:28:27.890 That gives us a pretty broad outline, what 00:28:27.890 --> 00:28:31.030 I really like and what hammers to point home that you 00:28:31.030 --> 00:28:37.250 look each year the five year planning excel sheets are a thing of the past and 00:28:37.250 --> 00:28:42.310 at least for for companies who don't have a very steady very long-term business 00:28:42.310 --> 00:28:48.590 already established i like that approach and with the approach you could already uh convince. 00:28:49.830 --> 00:28:56.250 10 investors as you said you raised more than 100 million in us dollars um crunchbase 00:28:56.250 --> 00:29:01.190 is currently showing it as a little bit over 95 million in the years and amongst 00:29:01.190 --> 00:29:05.010 your investors are Atlantic Labs, AXA Venture Partners, 00:29:05.450 --> 00:29:11.850 Acton Capital and Red Alpine well some pretty well-known names here in Germany 00:29:11.850 --> 00:29:17.670 in terms of VC investors are you guys open with all those plans to talk to new investors. 00:29:18.703 --> 00:29:24.903 I mean, honestly, right now, also with the last round, which was led by Aragon, a U.S. 00:29:24.943 --> 00:29:28.123 Hedge fund, which joined our company, which made us also very proud because 00:29:28.123 --> 00:29:31.283 before, as you said, you know, we had this German European landscape, 00:29:31.343 --> 00:29:32.323 which was already great. 00:29:32.383 --> 00:29:36.723 But now also with the U.S. investor on board, we feel very confident also to 00:29:36.723 --> 00:29:40.943 continue down the mission in terms of building at least the number one player 00:29:40.943 --> 00:29:42.703 in Europe when it comes to flexible work. 00:29:42.703 --> 00:29:45.683 But this also brought us 00:29:45.683 --> 00:29:48.463 into this very strong position that we are not in the need of 00:29:48.463 --> 00:29:51.503 money anymore we we have 00:29:51.503 --> 00:29:54.403 a self-sustaining business we have enough money on the bank 00:29:54.403 --> 00:30:00.743 and i think if we would go and approach investors again private equity if we 00:30:00.743 --> 00:30:04.843 would work with debt or anything like that then this will be very opportunistic 00:30:04.843 --> 00:30:09.043 this could be something which we would try to leverage for internationalization 00:30:09.043 --> 00:30:12.563 or if we want to really go hard on m&a A, 00:30:12.583 --> 00:30:15.283 everything related to that, it could be an option again. 00:30:15.463 --> 00:30:20.323 But I think otherwise, we feel very confident with this broad board of investors, 00:30:20.483 --> 00:30:22.023 as well as money on the bank. 00:30:22.183 --> 00:30:26.043 And I think that's why we are always happy to have conversations. 00:30:26.063 --> 00:30:31.243 But it's not anymore like in the early days where we also really needed money 00:30:31.243 --> 00:30:33.183 from time to time again to ensure to survive. 00:30:35.143 --> 00:30:38.223 I see. You have all those investors. 00:30:38.323 --> 00:30:41.783 And at one point down the road, they are looking to get their money back. 00:30:41.783 --> 00:30:45.243 In one interview, you talked about an IPO. 00:30:45.763 --> 00:30:48.943 Is this still a mid to long-term goal of yours? 00:30:49.883 --> 00:30:54.103 It's for sure a valid option. That's also one of the reasons why we converted 00:30:54.103 --> 00:30:58.783 our company at the end of last year to a European stock company, 00:30:58.923 --> 00:31:03.543 an SE, to ensure that we have all of the possibilities in the future. 00:31:03.543 --> 00:31:09.583 Of course, also to ensure that we are in a very professional setup also when 00:31:09.583 --> 00:31:14.463 it comes to later stage investors, to private equity, but also to have the opportunity. 00:31:14.723 --> 00:31:18.463 You know, I think when we started the company, there's always the romantic idea 00:31:18.463 --> 00:31:21.743 also as a founder that at some point you can ring the bell, whether that's in 00:31:21.743 --> 00:31:25.503 Frankfurt or on Nasdaq or wherever in the world it makes sense, 00:31:25.623 --> 00:31:31.303 to ensure to bring the company to the next level, to open it up also to public markets. 00:31:31.303 --> 00:31:36.143 There is a great advantage, though, which was, I think, not out there 10 or 20 years ago. 00:31:36.243 --> 00:31:42.443 The private markets are so heavy with money that if you are successful as a 00:31:42.443 --> 00:31:47.543 company and you need money, you don't necessarily need to go anymore to the 00:31:47.543 --> 00:31:51.003 public markets to open up for new investors. 00:31:51.223 --> 00:31:55.383 So it is an option. And I think also something, you know, as I said, 00:31:55.423 --> 00:31:58.063 from a romantic point of view, we still very much like the idea. 00:31:58.523 --> 00:32:01.543 But I think this will be just something we will judge when it comes to it. 00:32:02.914 --> 00:32:08.974 I see. And the last question, actually pretty funny for what you guys are doing. 00:32:09.074 --> 00:32:16.014 Are you, as Zenjob itself, you have something around 300 employees, I do believe. 00:32:16.794 --> 00:32:24.434 Are you yourself looking to hire a great talent in the future? Yes, we do so right now. 00:32:24.514 --> 00:32:29.594 We do it way more, let's say, I don't know, cautious, if that's the right word, 00:32:29.634 --> 00:32:33.594 but we are more deliberate on what we are doing, who we are hiring. 00:32:33.714 --> 00:32:36.694 I think also a big learning for a lot of scale-ups from the 00:32:36.694 --> 00:32:39.534 last couple of years is no one wants 00:32:39.534 --> 00:32:43.054 to end up again also in a situation where you hire too much 00:32:43.054 --> 00:32:46.094 and then you realize revenues or profitability 00:32:46.094 --> 00:32:49.374 is not going there in the same direction so that's why we 00:32:49.374 --> 00:32:52.314 do so in specific areas like in product and engineering 00:32:52.314 --> 00:32:55.834 one third of our employees are in product and engineering as 00:32:55.834 --> 00:32:59.354 i said right tech is very important for us so there's always something where 00:32:59.354 --> 00:33:05.674 we will continue to hire i think right now we do also hire in sales but this 00:33:05.674 --> 00:33:09.814 also can change again right this can't change in a year let's hope this change 00:33:09.814 --> 00:33:14.294 sooner than later because that also will mean an uprise also in the macroeconomic economic climate, 00:33:14.474 --> 00:33:17.534 and then we would look for even a broader range of talents. 00:33:17.694 --> 00:33:21.574 But right now we are looking for everyone who is eager, hungry. 00:33:21.794 --> 00:33:25.834 We have four values here also at Zenjob, being hungry, being helpful. 00:33:26.634 --> 00:33:28.034 Being humble and being honest. 00:33:28.214 --> 00:33:31.774 So if you fulfill those four criterias, right, then please join here on the 00:33:31.774 --> 00:33:34.374 homepage and check it out. The open positions. 00:33:34.854 --> 00:33:37.994 But yeah, so this will be, I think, the mix for the next couple of months. 00:33:38.234 --> 00:33:41.434 Or alternatively, you can go down here in the show notes. 00:33:41.434 --> 00:33:44.334 There's a link to our blog post and there we will 00:33:44.334 --> 00:33:47.314 also link the same job career side 00:33:47.314 --> 00:33:50.454 good sounds good 00:33:50.454 --> 00:33:56.534 Frederick it was a pleasure having you here hopefully you will talk in the future 00:33:56.534 --> 00:34:01.634 again maybe one two years down the road and then see what you did with your 00:34:01.634 --> 00:34:08.074 tech stack and changing changes in AI and HR are in the future. 00:34:08.774 --> 00:34:09.994 Sounds good. Thanks a lot, Joe. 00:34:10.754 --> 00:34:15.514 Totally my pleasure. Have a good day. You too. Bye-bye. 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:46.186 Music.