Latest / 8 Years To Live / Hey Siri, call Jojo | Understanding Trauma Through the Nervous System
Transcript
- speaker-0: Every person has a story. Some shape us, some break us, and some help us heal. Join Sisters Kim and Bibi as they explore mental health, trauma, relationships, and personal growth through honest conversations, lived experiences, and professional insights. Because understanding your story can change the way you live it. This is Eight Years to Live. speaker-1: I had gone into a coma. speaker-0: I just say Maria Shriver. speaker-1: Yes, yes. Why do we have so many nicknames for each other? speaker-0: Good question. Because medical trauma is one of the most under-recognized forms of trauma. speaker-1: Who are you gonna talk to when I die? speaker-0: He's already telling you you've got eight years to left. Hello JoJo, aka B B. I just wanted to welcome everybody back and just remind people that this podcast is about mental health and conversations and just making things known that maybe have been unknown to us as we go through life. I just wanted to do a quick recap. Last episode we briefly talked about Bibi's diagnosis, how she was given eight years to live, and how we typically tend to minimize. Our family anyway, minimize big things. And today I wanted to go a little bit deeper on that diagnosis, what it meant, what it was, and what you're actually diagnosed with. And then there's a little story behind the nickname Jojo that we will cover today. My name is Kim. I am a marriage and family therapist intern, and you are speaker-1: I am Bibi, your youngest sister, and I'm a Poshmarker. I sell clothes on Poshmark. That's my full-time gig. I have plenty of side hustles. I'm sure we'll talk about that at some point as well. speaker-0: Today's episode is called Hey Siri Called JoJo. And I just wanted to briefly talk about why we started recording our phone calls earlier a few years ago. If you just want to remind us, baby, what the eight years to live entails, and we can talk a little bit deeper about speaker-1: So I was told I had VEDS Vascular Ellers Downlow Syndrome. And that's a very rare type of Ellers Downlow syndrome. So with that diagnosis comes a lot of complications, and typically when you're diagnosed with it, you have approximately eight years to live. So I was told even before receiving my actual report that I had all the symptoms, everything that went along with it. So I thought I had eight years to live. speaker-0: And by report is like the the doctors, like you're they do they run blood or speaker-1: They ran blood and then they did not a DNA test, but s maybe a DNA test, something where they have to like they told me it would take a long time. They had to send out results or the test to some specialist. So they said it's gonna take I don't know, I think they said like six months to a year is what the company told me. I was calling to see, hey, do have my results? They're like, no, this takes forever. Don't even worry about it. Okay. So then when I did finally go to the doctor and I told him I don't have my results. He said, That is crazy. You should have results within two weeks. I was speaker-0: wow. speaker-1: like, Well they told me six months to a year, so I'm just not even stressing it. So he was able to have his nurse call and get the results, which ended up being negative. But he had already told me this is This is what you have. speaker-0: So before you even had the results, he's already telling you you've got eight years to live. speaker-1: Yes, based on everything I had gone through previously, starting at childhood, everything I had lined up with vascular Lers download. speaker-0: And did he tell you like eight years starting as of that day or eight when did the eight years start ticking? speaker-1: So he said he didn't tell me specifically himself eight years. He said you have vascular L's down loss it's that's just not a good disease to have. people's lives are typically cut short. He didn't give me a timeline, so then I went home and I did my own research. I thought, well he didn't even tell me that we were waiting on the results, so you know how I am. I started to obsess. I thought I will learn everything I need to know about this diagnosis. Sure enough it said by the time you're told that you have it, you've got approximately eight years. I don't know, given give or take how much from when. speaker-0: Wow. I remember you calling me. I think it was when they told you. So before you'd gotten your results, he told you you had the eight years to live. You called me. And by then we already had a pretty good pattern of calling each other every single day. And I thought, I think you you must have been thinking the same thing because that same phone call I remember you said who she gonna call every day because I call you every day. speaker-1: I know. I remember yes. speaker-0: Yeah, and so I thought, what am I gonna do? And I don't know who suggested was it you or was it me that said, Let's start recording our phone calls. speaker-1: I think it may have been me. I do remember thinking that's funny you say that because I remember thinking I was more worried about you than me. I didn't think like I'm gonna die. I thought, my gosh, who's she gonna call? Poor Mao I really did. That I didn't I didn't think of that until now. speaker-0: my gosh. And for those that don't know me, Mao is my nickname. We nickname everybody. And I have about five different nicknames. Bibi's nickname for me is Mao, so go ahead. speaker-1: Yes. so yes, I definitely felt it more for others, like, that sucks. What's she gonna do? 'Cause we would call not just once a day, multiple times a day. Like every break. I think before you went to school was when we both had more time. You'd call me, I'd call you. I think it was summertime so I wasn't working at the school. We had all this free time. Just call Mal speaker-0: Talk for hours. speaker-1: Yes. Yep. We would three four hours. speaker-0: Yeah. That's interesting that instead of thinking, my gosh, I've got eight years to live, you thought, my gosh, what is she who is speaker-1: You can speaker-0: she gonna call? speaker-1: Ghostbusters, I guess. speaker-0: So then we start recording our phone calls and from there we thought we should start a podcast because both you and I started digging into Ellers Dalmos and then shortly after I think I started going to school. So then I started learning more about mental health and I would call you and tell you all the things that I was learning and you things were clicking in your brain, like as I would share things with you about mental health. speaker-1: Yes, yep, absolutely. Yep, so like you were saying, we do have our nicknames, our tangents, our everything. So all of us in our family have nicknames, at least one. Nobody would ever guess. My first name is Michol Omne. I go by Bibi. Bebes. I have all kinds of nicknames. Same with you. So we just tend to do that. We take a word and not just names. We take words and make our own language. So for instance, I don't know if people noticed, we say exactly all the time. Exactly. Exactly. And then we decided to go to egg or eggs. And then Yes. With our text. We don't even say exactly, we'll send a little emoji of an egg. And then or then it went on to say it being eggs Benedict and then Benedict Arnold Arnold Schwarzenegger Maria Schriver. So if we agree we might say Benedict Arnold or who knows what we'll say, but hopefully you guys can catch on to our words. speaker-0: Yes. So for a long time remember we would say you would say something and if I agreed with you, I would just say, Maria Shriver speaker-1: Yes. Yes. We're absolutely ridiculous. speaker-0: So then the way I came up with Jojo, there's a story in the Bible where in Genesis Abraham has 12 kids. His youngest son is his favorite. His name is Joseph. And so I started calling Bibi Jojo in short for Joseph because she's my I claim that she's my mom's favorite. I'm not bitter. I'm just saying she got the coat and I didn't. So here we are. She's Jojo. speaker-1: Yep, here I am, Joseph. speaker-0: And just touching on being the smallest or the youngest, I did want to touch a little bit on birth order because that plays into a lot. like how we show up in relationships. Often we'll meet people and we'll ask them, where are you in the family? I'm the baby. I can tell because you're letting everybody do everything for you, let's say. Or the oldest, typically the responsible one that takes charge, gets things done. And you can kind of see that in our family, and it's not always like that, but it can play, like birth order can play into that. And that's just something that I just wanted to point out that. We'll probably be talking about in another episode. speaker-1: I think that makes sense. I would say it's pretty common as far as I've noticed. Like there seems to be patterns in birth order. Like you said, not always true to the stereotype, but oftentimes you can tell. You can tell who the speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: favorite one is. speaker-0: Who the Joseph is of the family? speaker-1: Exactly. Exactly. speaker-0: Maria Schreiber. speaker-1: Ha speaker-0: And often the youngest one, like you can see them as the charmer, the middle children, sometimes they can be the forgotten one or the one that kind of adapts to others. So when they say, you know, there's a middle child syndrome, there often can be a pattern that can identify with the middle child. speaker-1: Mm-hmm mm hmm interesting. I hadn't noticed until now, just when I went through our notes, like the youngest one can be the charming one and the protected one. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: That I don't know how I skipped over that, but that is making sense just with me having had so many medical things happen in my life. It's crazy that I was already the protected one. And then I got sick and then I had to be protected even more. I'm sure that played a part in all of our lives too. speaker-0: Yeah. And did you feel protected by someone specific or by everybody? speaker-1: by our mom, for sure. Mm-hmm. I felt protected. She wanted to make sure I was safe and had everything I needed, special foods because I couldn't eat a lot. And that's a whole we know that's a different conversation about a different disease other than the Ellers Damlos. But yeah, I definitely felt protected by her. One hundred percent. speaker-0: Yeah. And I'm wondering if your nervous system also kind of felt the fact that you were or like played into the fact that you were the youngest one. Because that can happen too. So our nervous systems can get wired according to our birth order. So I'm wondering if you notice that even looking back now. speaker-1: Wait, what do you mean? Can you say more about that? speaker-0: Sure. So like for you you're saying I noticed that I was a protected one. When I got sick, that played even more into me being the protected one. So being the protected one, did that settle your nervous system? Does it settle your nervous system now knowing someone's protecting me? Or does it unsettle it knowing, my gosh, I'm not protected? speaker-1: I think it settled me for sure. Knowing like in my hospital stays, knowing that I had an advocate, knowing that I had somebody that would say, like, are you sure she's supposed to do that? Or are you sure she can eat that? So I I would say it settled my nervous system. Also, there's a large portion of so many different people in my personal space or, you know, doing things medically to me. That I think having one person on my team is huge, but also everyone else felt if I felt violated. So that's kind of a hard that's probably a harder thing to really like comb through. Like did I feel protected? I felt that she was trying to protect me. But I also I don't think I understood what needed to be done to me physically. So that was hard to That's really hard to make sense of, I would say. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. And I'm wondering how is that playing into your nervous system now, having that person that did protect you or was trying to protect you and being the youngest, now as an adult, do you tend to find friendships where someone is protecting you? speaker-1: that's a good question. I see what you're saying. yeah, I would say so. Overall, yes. I know I have friends that maybe are not one is the protector, but I do tend to have friends or people in my life that do kind of fill in that role. Including Ruben. speaker-0: Mm. Yeah. And I think me, like and I think Ruben, your husband, knows that about me, so he feels let's say safer if you and I travel together versus you traveling with someone that doesn't have that protective role. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. for sure. Yes. Yes, that's crazy. I knew it. I think we'd kind of talked about it, but maybe in a different I don't know scenario. But that makes so much sense. speaker-0: I think we had talked about it, but not necessarily looking at it from the nervous system. speaker-1: Mm, mm. speaker-0: Or your nervous system feels at ease, you're not dysregulated, if you're with let's say someone from your team as you call them that is that protector. So like if I'm around and you're in an uncomfortable situation, your nervous system's gonna be settled quicker because like you your nervous system knows that the protect protector is there, let's say. speaker-1: Yes, yes, I would say that is absolutely true. speaker-0: Interesting. speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: So thank God that you didn't have this vasc or VEDS, vascular Ellerge down lows, because one in fifty thousand people have that. That's so rare. So I'm sure not very much is known about that specific type of allerge down lows. So what actually do you have? speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Well, I do have Ellers Downlow syndrome. And to clarify, I know when people do have that test done that I had, nothing is a hundred percent accurate. So in my mind, I'm like, there's always still a chance that I could have it just because of everything I have experienced. So that, I think to me, is always a possibility. But what I was diagnosed with a hundred percent is Like I said, hypermobile Ellers down lows. So that is also there's I think sixteen subtypes of Ellers down lows. And that one, the way it's diagnosed is if you're hypermobile or what is the other word for it? Like the common term? Double jointed speaker-0: jointed. speaker-1: double jointed, yes. So the doctor like checked my arms, moved him, and he's like, Wow, that is crazy. My legs. Very, very double jointed, flexible. So that can still that still affects me. it doesn't have the it's not life threatening. But I do have some issues like as far as joint pain because I'm I don't notice that I'm like I don't know, hyperextending. So then my knees will hurt, my elbows will hurt, and I don't even think twice about it just because this is how I stand, this is how I sleep. I sleep in very weird positions. I can just move my body in weird ways and it doesn't hurt in the moment. But then later I'm like, my gosh, everything hurts, you know? So it definitely still has side effects. They just aren't as scary, I would say. speaker-0: Isn't chronic pain one of the symptoms I should say? speaker-1: Yep, chronic pain, fatigue. speaker-0: So do you feel chronic pain all the time? speaker-1: Say no. I don't think I do, but I do. I think I'm very used to having pain kind of just there. So, like right now, if I stop to think, my knees hurt, my back hurts. But if I'm just going on about my day, it's not something that's really that I'm thinking about. speaker-0: And it I think because it's been chronic for so long, you've lived with this pain for so long that part of your brain's just numbed out to it because I know that I've asked you, Why are you limping? and you didn't even know that you were limping because you had pain. speaker-1: Right. Yes. Yep. I've had strangers or people ask me, maybe not strangers, but if I run into somebody I know out and about, they're like, my gosh, are you okay? Like I'm great. How come you're limping? Like I was limping? I don't even I think my body's just so used to overcompensating. My right hip hurts, so I'll limp and that just kinda goes to the wayside. And I do notice like I need to just sit down or lay down. Why? I just need to. Do I always do it? No. But then I have to think, yeah, I guess my back is is hurting pretty bad or mild. But yeah, I don't always I don't always notice it as it's happening. Crazy, huh? speaker-0: Yes, almost like you've learned to even minimize not just emotional things or minimize things that are happening in real time, but you're minimizing what's happening inside your body as far as pain goes. speaker-1: Mm. yeah, I think I've had chronic pain I would say since I was eleven. Maybe maybe before. Like leading up to being eleven. speaker-0: That sounds really hard and so many different things happening in your body all at the same time. What was it like for the doctors to even start putting words to what was happening in your body? speaker-1: That was crazy. I would say that's been such a cool thing with like doctors or therapists or somebody giving me words and it not being like, that's just one of my BB isms, or that's a quirk. Like, my goodness, this goes with this. Like, so for instance, Ellers Danlos, you can have like ADHD symptoms and or actual ADHD, foggy brain, to me I just always thought like, I just forget. I'm just inattentive or I'm just, I don't know, silly or don't I don't take things seriously. So when I read about Ellers Downlos, I ended up finding this podcast that I think I listened to I don't know fifty times. I sent it to everybody I know. And I said, listen to this, this is crazy. And it explained ADHD to where I thought, my word, this is not just little things that I do that are just me. So it helped me just to understand and feel validated. Like, wow, there is something happening within me. It's not just me making poor choices because I am inattentive or irresponsible. This is a real thing. So it made me feel so much better. Not like, my gosh, here I go again, you know, thinking I've messed something up or I only I would have done this. So it it was awesome learning about it. speaker-0: Yes, so validating. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: Yeah. And I think that's the whole point of this podcast when we were talking about is like helping others put words to what's happening in them. Maybe somebody doesn't have Ellers down lows. Maybe they do and they didn't know that it was a thing, you know, that something is happening in their body. Or ADHD, you know, it's like no matter how hard I try, I still can't focus. I want to. But for some reason my brain's just not letting me, but I can focus over in this other area. So why can't why can't I do it here but not here? Like there's this internal battle within me. And so even just having those words given to you, that that knowledge, things started changing. speaker-1: Totally. Then I knew I could work with it. I'm not working against myself. Okay, this is how it is. What can I do to work with this and kind of lean into it instead of fight against it? And now I think, I'm super creative or I like starting new things. I may not finish them. But if I want to start something new, I'll start it. I think that's the I feel like it's a gift. Where before I thought, my word, this is a curse. I think pros and cons, there's a lot that I can work with or work through. But I have found kind of beauty in it. I think, wow, this is really cool. There's not I don't have all ADHD friends. You know, I have friends who are just can think things through, do it, do like Ruben does dishes, laundry, all it within an hour. And I'm like, I gotta start this, I gotta do that, I gotta do that. So it's cool to see beauty like, wow, two different types of brains. That's awesome. speaker-0: Yeah. So your ADHD, you're learning to lean into it. The more you get to know yourself, the more you can, like you said, not fight against it and work with it or find things that work with your brain in that situation. And it's helped you maybe gain momentum in life. speaker-1: Yeah, I would say so. speaker-0: Which then kind of brings me to a whole different point because originally you're told that you've got vascular LO's down loss without even like the results. And apparently the results don't really mean much because it could still be that you do have vascular LO's down loss, and I'd forgotten about that. So what was it like to be given the words but then have them yanked away and told, okay, but you do have this? So like Such confusion I would imagine it's like, do I have this? Do I not have this? What is it that I have that would have just been me? What was it like for you? speaker-1: yeah, I would say it was weird because I felt like I accepted it pretty easily. I thought, okay, like eight years that's I can work with it. Like I told you, I can start planning or thinking things through and then to be told you don't have it. I think I was more shocked learning I didn't have it than learning I did. I think it was harder for me to accept that I didn't have it. Because in my mind I it made sense. When he said you have this, I thought, this is why I had Y, and Z happen when I was eleven. This is this makes sense for this next like whatever was happening, it just made sense. I thought, I have an answer and then okay, that's not true. So what do I attribute all of these things to? Now I have to start over, okay, what does it all mean? So I think that that's also interesting, like how I reacted to thinking I had it. I am more of a reaction to not having it. speaker-0: That is interesting. And I know that like with connective tissue disorders, those diagnoses can often be wrong in your prime example, where all of these this criteria, let's say, for vascular or VEDS we'll call it. fits you perfectly, and now you're told, no, that's not it. It's really this. It's so disorienting. It's like, okay, now I'm gonna need to start over because I took a deep dive with VEDS. Now I need to take a deep dive with this other connective tissue disorder. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: And I'm just wondering how often does this happen specifically with other women? Because it that's who it's most common with these misdiagnoses. It's like Okay, you've prepped your mind, this is what's gonna happen, this is what I'm gonna do to move forward, and then all of a sudden it's not that. Grief, anger, frustration, all of these different emotions can come up. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yep, you're absolutely right. speaker-0: Would you say that you were because it sounds like you weren't relieved, it sounds like you were more frustrated that you had been misdiagnosed, but now learning that you that hopefully you don't have eight years to live, did that shape the way you started living your life differently? Like, okay, I've got eight years to live, okay, no, I've got longer. Did that change for you in any way? speaker-1: I think I took the eight years to live pretty seriously. Like I thought I wanna live like I have eight years only. I thought this is a really cool opportunity to really do something fulfilling or to really be more passionate, I guess. Even though I've been told so many times like your life will be shorter than expected. For some reason I thought, wow, that would be really cool if I actually lived as if I might die any day from here up until eight years. So yeah, I would say it shaped it quite a bit. speaker-0: And then did it reshape it when you learned that it wasn't eight years? Did that change? speaker-1: No. I think I kept that stayed with me. I think I thought that's a good way to live. Good speaker-0: It's speaker-1: to be passionate and to have like depth about every day and every choice that I make. speaker-0: Hmm. Yeah, to be more intentional, it sounds like you're saying. Be more intentional with what you do with your life. It's not like, I've this is never gonna end even though we know, you know, it will, but for you you became just more intentional with it. speaker-1: Yes. Yep, that's a good word. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Maria Schreiber. speaker-0: That's right. speaker-1: Mm. speaker-0: So I remember and we touched on this before when you got VEDS or diagnosed with VEDS and then EDS. I started looking at different things because I thought if this is nervous system related, which we know that LR's down lows affects your nervous system, I started looking into what can I do as the older sister, the protector. To help you, because I thought no, it's not gonna be at years. I I personally cannot be okay with that. So I started looking into it and I found the Safe and Sound Protocol, which we talked about it in last episode, but I really wanted to talk more about it because this safe and sound protocol is developed by Dr. Stephen Porgis, and there's a lot of science behind this protocol. So you being the person that I bought the program for to help your nervous system. Can you tell me a little bit about what it was like, and what it entailed before I go into the science of it? speaker-1: Sure, yeah. So I'll tell you how it started and then after a few different sessions, I guess we can call I think at first it took some kind of dialing into. So we started and I am extremely sensitive, I think I may have mentioned it in episode one, to light, sound, touch. So it's kinda like speaker-0: Let me let me pause right there. Is that an LR down lows symptom that you're sensitive to light, sound and touch? speaker-1: Have we looked into that? It might be. I think it is too. Yes. So yes. So light sound. And I think it might be ADHD too. I actually don't know. But I I think you're right. I think it does have to do with eds. So very sensitive to sounds. And with that what is it called? With SSP. I wore headphones, like over the ear, headphones, and you played it's like a not quite music, but just sounds. And I remember at first the sounds, I didn't like them. They were weird. They made me like and I think I told you, I was like, This is kind of making me anxious. Cause you were with me the whole time. Like we did FaceTime, I listened, and I told you it's too loud or it's too whatever. And then once we got that adjusted The second time I think seemed better, like I felt calmer. I remember at first I felt like I have to like sit still, I have to do all these things. And then the second time I asked you like, Can I fidget? 'Cause I'm a fidgeter. You're like, Yeah, you just do whatever you need to do. So the second time I felt a little bit more relaxed. And then I started to feel some sort of like like I was being settled. Every time I felt more calm, just like I could let my guard down. So then when I did SSP, not with you and not with Ruben, but I started to do it with a friend, with two friends, I remember just my guard was down and I just felt like, wow, a wave of kind of a wave of relief to where, like I said, I just cried, like, wow, this needed to leave my body. And I didn't know how to do that before. So it was I would say it was pretty crazy. It was really cool. speaker-0: Do you remember at one what point of that type of therapy you were able to let your guard down in front of somebody and cry? speaker-1: I don't remember. Mm mm. speaker-0: Had it been a while? I don't remember either. I remember that happening to you, but I don't remember how long it had been. I thought it was Uhhuh. speaker-1: while into it. I know we did it often together the like several times. I think it wasn't until I mentioned like, should I always do it with you? Would it be a good idea if I do it with Ruben? And then of course Ruben has seen me cry or been there, you know, for different situations. But for me to cry like that with a friend, that was different. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: So you're describing, so let me back up a little bit. So the safe and sound protocol is music, and there's different kinds of music. Sometimes when a nervous system is so dysregulated, we have to ease in to the music that hasn't been altered or doesn't have this alteration. With you, we did a couple of minutes together with the music that had been altered that's gonna start speaking to your nervous system. And I think I may had have had you listen to the music that wasn't altered, just so you could kind of get you. Used to listening to it, even though it didn't have those deeper frequencies that were speaking directly to your nervous system. So by the time we did it, your nervous system only allowed for a couple of minutes and you said, I'm not feeling I think it was safe. I'm not feeling safe because your nervous system had been feeling unsafe for so long. And now these vibrations within the music kind of touched on that. And so I said, Okay, we're not gonna push through this or force your way through this music. We're just gonna pause it. And being together, me being regulated is going to regulate your system. And you had already established me as like a safe and secure person. So your nervous system knew, okay, I'm safe. I've got one foot in the present. And the music was just taking you a little bit back. Where you were feeling not safe. And so with us easing into it, like doing two minutes at a time, and I think then we did four, we upped it to five. And then once we kind of had a good game plan where you're listening to like five to eight minutes of this music, then that's when you started listening to to it with Ruben and then with a friend. So your nervous system through the safe and sound protocol started to realize, okay, I'm safe enough to let my guard down. and cry or be vulnerable with somebody that I normally wouldn't be normal or be vulnerable with. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: Yeah, so Dr. Stephen Porges who came up with this, he is a neuroscientist and a psychiatrist, and he has spent decades studying the nervous system and has been doing specific studies with Eller's downloads. And I think we touched on that in the first episode. And we can link link his study because there's specific like studies as I'm saying the word study a hundred times. you can anybody can read it if they're interested in doing that. But through the safe and sound protocol, Stephen Porges has been looking and discovering more about the polyvagal theory. And so the polyvagal theory kind of explains the way your nervous system is regulated. So like you can be in hyperarousal or hypoarousal. And within that like the polyvagal theory it's explains that it's the autonomic nervous system. So when we're scared, automatically our nervous system does something. And it can be in the rest and digest portion of the nervous system where we're comfortable, we feel safe, and that's that middle portion of the nervous system where we're not out of the window of tolerance either in hyper arousal or hypoarousal. So these three states when you're using the polyvagal theory language, it's moving from it's like a ladder. So your nervous system will move from high to medium to low and then up and down. And our nervous system does this all the time. Sometimes we don't even know that we're doing it. speaker-1: Mm. Fascinating. speaker-0: It is really fascinating. So the ventrovagal, it's the safe and social state. So we want to be able to be social. We want to be able to feel safe. That's when we're calm, we're connected, we can make eye contact. That's a big one. And we can express our emotions and think at the same time. That's my favorite. Am I thinking and feeling at the same time? If I am, that that means that I'm right in that middle of the window of tolerance. When we're in the when the sympathetic part of the nervous system gets activated, that's when we go into that fight, flight, freeze, rage, panic, as I like to call you. I'm panicking, I'm panicking. speaker-1: Ha ha ha. speaker-0: That's the mobilized state. So our nervous system preps us to do something. We need to run away, we need to fight someone, but we're prepped, like things are happening internally. Our heart's beating fast, our blood is pumping different, it's pumping to different parts of our body, and that's that sympathetic state. And then we have the dorsal vagal where it's the shutdown state. So if we've got that ladder, we're either up here in the sympathetic state of the nervous system that's been activated, hyper-arousal, or we're in that ventral vagal, the rest and digest, and then the dorsal vagal, the shutdown. So if you think of the possum that plays dead, that's a perfect picture of the dorsal vagal. speaker-1: And that's where I was. Yeah. So is there I don't know if this would be just an opinion, but is there a better I know middle would be perfect, but hyper hypo is there is one better than the other? speaker-0: Not necessarily, it all depends on what your nervous system got used to. So for you, being in that dorsal vagal just meant that you felt that you had no escape from whatever situation you were in. So when we go there, it's like we feel that we can't run away, we can't fight, so we're hopeless, there's nothing that we can do, and we go into this state of freezing. And so your nervous system somewhere along the way. your go-to became the dorsal vagal state. So it's not one's better than the other. They're doing the same thing. They're protecting you. They just look totally different. speaker-1: Okay. So it could be someone fighting. Flighting or freezing. Okay. That makes sense. I knew that, but I now thinking about I think is it better to play dead? Not necessarily. Because there's no action being taken. speaker-0: Yeah, it could be there's no action being taken. Or on the opposite end, if you've got someone fighting and they're fighting every single person that bumps into them into the grocery store, cuts them off in traffic. So neither are good. Because if you're frozen or dissociative in that dorsal vagal state, now you're not present with your loved ones. Someone can be telling you something and your mind. goes away. Like you go into what did you call it? Where your happy place now. speaker-1: my rich inner world. Yes. You'll go into the speaker-0: rich inner world because yeah your body physically cannot leave so you just learned your nervous system learned to just shut down and that's the polyvagal theory. speaker-1: Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I forgot I said that. speaker-0: Yeah, so our nervous system is constantly scanning. We don't even know that it's doing this because it's automatic, but it's scanning. Am I safe? Is there danger? Do I need to dissociate because for whatever reason I feel like I can't leave and this is there's a perceived threat. speaker-1: So is everybody doing that all the time? speaker-0: Yes? Our nervous system is always scanning. Always. Whether we learn how to not go into, let's say, on a scale of zero to ten, ten being you're at a mad panic, zero completely shut down, learning how to regulate that and bringing it closer to your window of tolerance or expanding your window of tolerance. But yes, our nervous system is always scanning for danger. speaker-1: I don't think I realize that. I think I I think in our family I think it's safe to say that that is heightened. Would you say so? Or in some families, not just ours. I think I thought that at some point I would not be doing that. Scanning, but I guess I'll always be scanning. speaker-0: Yes, because your body wants to keep you safe. No matter what's happening, that's how God's wired us. We've been wired to always protect ourselves. So now instead of being, let's say, your nervous system is scanning and before if Reuben, your husband, spoke to you in specific tone, you would immediately shut down. Okay, now you're not shutting down because now let's say that your window of tolerance has expanded, you can stay in more of that middle range. Sure, you might get close to wanting to dissociate, but you can catch it and you can say, wait a second, I can think and feel at the same time, not just feel. speaker-1: Okay, that makes sense. So I'll still be scanning, but my window of tolerance will have expanded, so I won't always be down here or always up here, but I'll still be scanning. speaker-0: This was a really big conversation and it was so long that we decided to make it into two episodes. If any of this resonates with anybody that's listening, if you see yourself in the minimization of big things or making a big deal out of something small. I just encourage you to continue to follow us on this journey as we continue to have conversations of what we've been through, of mental health, medical diagnoses, all these different things. I just encourage you to like and subscribe, comment, and we would love to stay connected with you. speaker-1: Hit that subscribe button.