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Have the Cardinals learned how to win? · Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

0:05
Speaker 1: For your off day viewing pleasures. Welcome back to Cardinal Territory,
0:10
Speaker 1: Katie and Bernie here to break down the Tiger series, which, honestly,
0:14
Speaker 1: I know the Cardinals lost that series, but I did
0:17
Speaker 1: not think that was a bad series by any means.
0:20
Speaker 1: And who would have thought coming into mid May that
0:23
Speaker 1: a series, an interleague series in the middle of the
0:25
Speaker 1: week between the Tigers and the Cardinals would be intriguing baseball.
0:28
Speaker 1: That's not something I would have identified in March, but
0:31
Speaker 1: it was. I thought this series against the Tigers was
0:33
Speaker 1: a true test for the Cardinals. Yes, they dropped the
0:36
Speaker 1: series and lost the rubber match five to one, pretty
0:39
Speaker 1: uninspiring performance, but we can get to that all in
0:41
Speaker 1: although Bernie, I thought it was a series in which
0:44
Speaker 1: the Cardinals held their own and I'm not all that
0:46
Speaker 1: disappointed that they didn't win it.
0:48
Speaker 2: I'm with you, and I'm going to make fun of myself.
0:50
Speaker 2: I told you this before we started record. I did
0:54
Speaker 2: a really crappy video yesterday. I did, I did. I mean,
0:58
Speaker 2: I admit it. You know, I had a bad day
1:01
Speaker 2: in the batter's box or whatever you know. On sports
1:04
Speaker 2: on STL dot com, where you can find all my stuff.
1:08
Speaker 2: I decided, well, I'm gonna wait until after the game
1:10
Speaker 2: do the video. But what happened was like it was
1:12
Speaker 2: yesterday was a really tired day. I just was running
1:14
Speaker 2: out of guess, so I did it. I was like
1:16
Speaker 2: irritated by the way they played. I was just irritated.
1:19
Speaker 2: So the fan in me like overreacted to it kind
1:22
Speaker 2: of and I was all like nasty, and I'm like,
1:24
Speaker 2: I thought about it this morning. I said, dude, it's
1:27
Speaker 2: not a big deal. It's not a big deal. I mean,
1:31
Speaker 2: you know, and one of the one of the things,
1:33
Speaker 2: and this is the relevant part because who cares what
1:35
Speaker 2: I think? But you know, I said, wait a minute.
1:39
Speaker 2: Didn't the Dodgers just get swept by the Angels at home? Yes?
1:43
Speaker 2: They did. Didn't the Dodgers recently get whacked eleven to
1:49
Speaker 2: one by the West Sacramento as Yeah they did. And
1:53
Speaker 2: here I am here, I am like just getting all,
1:55
Speaker 2: you know, getting all salty about it was a really
1:58
Speaker 2: bad performance. So what it's not like they lost to
2:03
Speaker 2: lost lost to the Rockies or something. The Tigers are
2:06
Speaker 2: damn good and they have a great manager. So anyway, too.
2:09
Speaker 2: I know a lot of the people watch my videos
2:11
Speaker 2: watch this, so me a call for everyone. You know,
2:13
Speaker 2: I wish I could do that one over. I might
2:16
Speaker 2: even delete the thing because I was like, a, well.
2:19
Speaker 1: This could be a redemption show. This is calm down.
2:22
Speaker 2: Let's be rational like the grouchy old man for no reason. Anyway,
2:27
Speaker 2: go ahead, I'm sorry, Let's.
2:28
Speaker 1: Talk about this with a clearhead. Right.
2:30
Speaker 2: Yeah.
2:30
Speaker 1: So coming in Tiger's best record in baseball. I mean
2:34
Speaker 1: they are. They are a really deep, well run club,
2:37
Speaker 1: a J. Hinch masterclass manager. And I identified this at
2:41
Speaker 1: the beginning of the month when the Cardinals started trending
2:43
Speaker 1: in a better direction. As a series that would tell
2:46
Speaker 1: us a lot about the club. Uh yeah. They lost.
2:49
Speaker 1: It was their first series loss. Put this in perspective
2:52
Speaker 1: since April twenty first through twenty third at Atlanta. They
2:55
Speaker 1: gone six oh and one in series, and it was
2:58
Speaker 1: their first lost home series since April second against the Angels.
3:03
Speaker 1: So they were due. They were due to drop a series.
3:06
Speaker 1: And while you know you want to win every series,
3:09
Speaker 1: that's just logically not going to happen. I liked the
3:12
Speaker 1: style of play in this series. You go out there
3:15
Speaker 1: and you thump a team in the in game one,
3:17
Speaker 1: you have sunny grade doing sunny great things. I thought
3:19
Speaker 1: that was a big bounce backstart for him to go
3:21
Speaker 1: six score less, ten strikeouts look like an ace out there,
3:24
Speaker 1: especially after one of his worst performances of his career
3:27
Speaker 1: in Philly. Then you have the offense coming to life,
3:29
Speaker 1: manufacturing runs early on, beginning in the seventh after the
3:33
Speaker 1: rain delay, and it was just kind of a good win.
3:36
Speaker 1: I really liked game two, which I was not at.
3:38
Speaker 1: That was an off day for me, but I watched
3:39
Speaker 1: on TV uh and to hang four on Schooble the
3:44
Speaker 1: raining American League, Cy young pitcher who's off to another
3:48
Speaker 1: great start this year, and it just really you know,
3:52
Speaker 1: you lost that game, but you're really excited about how
3:54
Speaker 1: you performed there. Wednesday's game, the day game, yeah, a dud.
3:57
Speaker 1: It was uninspiring. It was not good. It was also
4:00
Speaker 1: their first loss since they started their run up against
4:05
Speaker 1: their the home series after the Mets, in which they
4:08
Speaker 1: lost by more than one run. So their last three
4:10
Speaker 1: losses in our stretch, all those losses had come by
4:13
Speaker 1: one run, so they were due for a clunker and
4:15
Speaker 1: they got that. That was a bullpen games that they're
4:17
Speaker 1: hard to plan for. You either crush them or you don't. Overall,
4:22
Speaker 1: given how that loss took place on a twelve to
4:23
Speaker 1: fifteen game, they had just done ten on the road,
4:26
Speaker 1: hadn't had a true home off day in three weeks,
4:28
Speaker 1: that was probably the time for a clunker of a game.
4:31
Speaker 1: So all in all, I'm still very encouraged about this
4:34
Speaker 1: Cardinals team this month. This series loss aside.
4:37
Speaker 2: You know, earlier this season, would I could file a
4:40
Speaker 2: complaint and I could say, well, you know, but the
4:42
Speaker 2: point is, they don't they never beat these good teams,
4:44
Speaker 2: or they they're terrible against these good teams. They were
4:47
Speaker 2: a little shaky early, we know that. But they've been
4:50
Speaker 2: beating good teams and you know, they won the season.
4:53
Speaker 2: They won two series from the Phillies, they split their
4:56
Speaker 2: two series with the Mets, they went to Kansas City
5:00
Speaker 2: in one to two out of three, and I know
5:01
Speaker 2: there's a there's a couple other ones in there somewhere,
5:03
Speaker 2: but they've been actually playing really well against teams with
5:06
Speaker 2: a winning record. So yeah, this was nothing.
5:09
Speaker 1: It was.
5:09
Speaker 2: It was. It's one of those games where, yeah, they
5:12
Speaker 2: I think they should have won the series because it
5:13
Speaker 2: was there for them, But my gosh, uh, maybe maybe
5:18
Speaker 2: this is actually a compliment to the Cardinals because I
5:21
Speaker 2: actually view them as a really good team.
5:24
Speaker 1: That's what I'm getting at. That's why I wanted you
5:26
Speaker 1: to stick to your original reaction, because now we're disappointed
5:31
Speaker 1: when they don't beat a team like the Tigers and
5:33
Speaker 1: they you know, they're not matching up. They've changed our expectations,
5:36
Speaker 1: and that's a good thing, right.
5:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, there's no doubt about it. I I do
5:41
Speaker 2: hold them to a higher standard now, and I think
5:43
Speaker 2: that's reasonable because I think if you look and I'm
5:45
Speaker 2: not going to get into the numbers, you know, but
5:47
Speaker 2: if you look at like all areas of their team,
5:49
Speaker 2: especially since they settled the bullpen down, every area of
5:52
Speaker 2: their team is really good. I mean, the defense is
5:55
Speaker 2: by far the best of the majors. It's ridiculous how
5:58
Speaker 2: good it is because they're basically plus it like literally
6:02
Speaker 2: every position, you know, and you know, the starting pitching.
6:07
Speaker 2: Remember how how they got beat up in Boston. Yeah,
6:11
Speaker 2: what was that the third series of the season. You
6:14
Speaker 2: know that since that series, the starting pitching era is
6:17
Speaker 2: like three thirteen. It's like top five in the majors.
6:20
Speaker 2: The bullpen was a disaster. But then on April twenty fifth.
6:23
Speaker 2: That change the offense has been has been inconsistent. I
6:27
Speaker 2: mean it's like I just wrote something where I'm like,
6:31
Speaker 2: you know, the offense as a whole has been good,
6:34
Speaker 2: but it's like, like, what's up with Like you guys,
6:37
Speaker 2: one day, you know you're scoring like twenty runs or whatever,
6:40
Speaker 2: and then the next day, you know, you score one.
6:44
Speaker 2: I mean they've scored like one run in a game
6:45
Speaker 2: eleven times this seasons. So this it's kind of extreme.
6:50
Speaker 2: And I don't even know if that's a complaint more
6:52
Speaker 2: of an observation, but the offense overall is good. Now
6:55
Speaker 2: they got to get some guys going again, right, there's
6:58
Speaker 2: some guys go kind of pointing down right now. But yeah,
7:03
Speaker 2: I have higher expectations because the Cardinals have earned those
7:07
Speaker 2: higher expectations instead of ridicule.
7:10
Speaker 1: Instead of ridicule, you know, I agree, And yeah, I know,
7:12
Speaker 1: Victor Scott the seconds tapered off a little bit, but
7:14
Speaker 1: that's to be expected. I think it's great that he's
7:16
Speaker 1: still going to get that every day playing time. I
7:18
Speaker 1: love what we're seeing out of Herrera in the middle
7:20
Speaker 1: of the order. Alec Burlison has done a great job
7:22
Speaker 1: as a platoon bat and Mason Wynn posting more solid
7:26
Speaker 1: numbers in the number two spot. So the good thing
7:29
Speaker 1: about this offense is while it could be a little inconsistent,
7:32
Speaker 1: and I don't really think it's an inconsistent offense. I
7:34
Speaker 1: think offense in general is inconsistent, and I think some
7:37
Speaker 1: days you're going to have it, some days you don't.
7:39
Speaker 1: They have depth, and this is something that I did
7:41
Speaker 1: not see. Their depth in their lineup and their ability
7:45
Speaker 1: to mix and match has made opposing managers really have
7:49
Speaker 1: to think about how to deploy their side at the bullpen.
7:52
Speaker 1: We heard Philly's manager Rob Thompson sayd aj Hinch saying
7:55
Speaker 1: how hard it is to match up against these guys.
7:57
Speaker 1: These are very accomplished managers. And last year Olie Marmal
8:01
Speaker 1: had zero depth. We talked about it at length last
8:03
Speaker 1: season on how he had no depth and his bench
8:06
Speaker 1: was so weak and there wasn't really anything he could
8:07
Speaker 1: do except play his starting nine. Now, I think maybe
8:10
Speaker 1: we can give him and the coaching staff a little
8:11
Speaker 1: bit of credit for how they've matched up in the
8:13
Speaker 1: late innings. They're carrying three catchers and they're still excelling
8:17
Speaker 1: in how they utilize their bench. So yeah, we're not
8:19
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of Nolan Gorman every day. We're seeing
8:22
Speaker 1: a better version of Jordan Walker over the last week
8:24
Speaker 1: or so. But Alec Berylson's ability is a platoon bat.
8:27
Speaker 1: The fact that Lars new Bar Brendan Donovan aren't super
8:29
Speaker 1: splitty New there is von Herrera that's helped, and it's
8:33
Speaker 1: helped the bench been able to be a real resource
8:35
Speaker 1: for them. They match up really well on both sides
8:37
Speaker 1: of the ball, and I'm excited to see how they
8:39
Speaker 1: do so against the Diamondbacks because that's another good club
8:42
Speaker 1: and another solid test for these Cardinals.
8:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, no doubt about it, and I think that they
8:49
Speaker 2: You know, this is something that I struggled to define.
8:52
Speaker 2: I was thinking about this late last night, and I
8:54
Speaker 2: want your perspective on this because I think it's a
8:57
Speaker 2: really good question. And you're around the club all the time.
9:00
Speaker 2: You can take the temperature, the pulse and all that
9:03
Speaker 2: good stuff. I try, you know, have we has it
9:07
Speaker 2: gotten to the point because this is about expectations in
9:10
Speaker 2: a way, but there's an offshoot to that. Has it
9:12
Speaker 2: gotten to the point where you think this team, this
9:15
Speaker 2: collection of some key veterans, but younger guys, intermediate guys,
9:20
Speaker 2: but guys that are having obviously a lot of fun
9:23
Speaker 2: playing baseball. Do you think this team has quote learned
9:27
Speaker 2: how to win, because in the past, a recent past,
9:30
Speaker 2: I never felt like when something went bad that kind
9:37
Speaker 2: of knew how to get themselves out of it. Now
9:40
Speaker 2: they did. In twenty twenty four, they had that one
9:42
Speaker 2: great run, but then when it started to go down again,
9:45
Speaker 2: they had no real response. Maybe that's a talent thing.
9:48
Speaker 2: But when I look at the Cardinals, and this actually
9:50
Speaker 2: was reflected in that Tuesday loss when schoobl Is like,
9:57
Speaker 2: for the first four innings one guy got on base,
10:00
Speaker 2: it's won over the minimum thirteen batters. They couldn't touch them,
10:03
Speaker 2: he says. They're working at best, but they couldn't touch them.
10:06
Speaker 2: And then they make some adjustments. And a lot of
10:08
Speaker 2: it's because, as you wrote about and we all were
10:11
Speaker 2: talking about, they really wore him down. And that's what
10:14
Speaker 2: aj Hinch said. He said, the boy, they battled him.
10:16
Speaker 2: You know, they weren't used to seeing a team battle.
10:18
Speaker 2: So even though they didn't win that game, that was
10:21
Speaker 2: the kind of game that I looked at and I said,
10:22
Speaker 2: you know what, this team is actually learning how to win,
10:25
Speaker 2: even when you're going up against a guy. Since the
10:28
Speaker 2: start of twenty twenty three, he's got the best ERA
10:31
Speaker 2: and the best strikeout rate among major league starters. And
10:34
Speaker 2: he had you around the throat and you came back
10:39
Speaker 2: and beat his ass off the mound. Right you knocked
10:43
Speaker 2: them out. It doesn't happen much. And I'm like, this
10:46
Speaker 2: is a team that looks like it knows how to
10:48
Speaker 2: win if they're not all the way there. That was
10:52
Speaker 2: a step, even though in a loss that told me
10:54
Speaker 2: a lot at least. Maybe I'm overreacting that, but I
10:57
Speaker 2: don't think so. I thought it was. I thought it
10:59
Speaker 2: was a great come back a bit against the number
11:01
Speaker 2: one pitcher in baseball.
11:03
Speaker 1: I think it's a great question, and I need thirty
11:05
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11:07
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12:14
Speaker 1: So the question was have the Cardinals learned how to win?
12:17
Speaker 1: And I think that's a very good question, and I
12:19
Speaker 1: think their style of play and their overall tenacity has
12:23
Speaker 1: allowed them to learn that. Coming into the season, the
12:25
Speaker 1: expectations were low, right, but they were not so low
12:29
Speaker 1: in the clubhouse that they were convinced upon opening day
12:32
Speaker 1: that they couldn't win. I actually think a lot of them,
12:34
Speaker 1: especially the young kids, enjoyed the underdog mentality and it's
12:38
Speaker 1: allowed many of these players, many of these young guys specifically,
12:41
Speaker 1: to go out there and relax and just play baseball
12:43
Speaker 1: without worrying about the stressors or the stipulations of a
12:48
Speaker 1: heavy veteran club. And this is not to suggest that
12:50
Speaker 1: having a heavy veteran club is a bad thing, but
12:52
Speaker 1: for this year, where the expectations were less and some
12:55
Speaker 1: of that pressure could be alleviated off these young guys,
12:57
Speaker 1: they could just go out there and go play baseball.
12:59
Speaker 1: Mason and can go play shortstop, Large new Bar can
13:01
Speaker 1: go out there and try to play every day. Stay healthy,
13:04
Speaker 1: Victor Scott the second, Hey, you're supposed to mess up
13:06
Speaker 1: a little bit, we're gonna give you some breathing room.
13:08
Speaker 1: Same with Herrera. Go down the list, but they're still
13:10
Speaker 1: coupled with some really intense veterans on the corners. You
13:14
Speaker 1: have Aronatto, you have Contrarass, you have Sunny Gray kind
13:16
Speaker 1: of being the overall dad of that rotation. You have
13:19
Speaker 1: lots of experience with Miles Michaelis, Stephen Matts, and what
13:23
Speaker 1: that has done is I think given an ideal blend.
13:25
Speaker 1: When you go around the clubhouse, the word they use
13:27
Speaker 1: to describe themselves is relentless. They played relentless even in
13:32
Speaker 1: the beginning of the year when the win loss record
13:33
Speaker 1: wasn't matching up to how they were playing. But because
13:36
Speaker 1: they committed to that style of play, it allowed them
13:39
Speaker 1: to stay grounded, It allowed them to believe in their
13:41
Speaker 1: team process, and then they started winning games because of it.
13:44
Speaker 1: So I don't know if they're necessarily learning how to win.
13:48
Speaker 1: I think they learned here's what happens if you have
13:50
Speaker 1: a style of play that you stick to and we
13:52
Speaker 1: don't panic when things don't go well to start. If
13:54
Speaker 1: we're convicted and how we play, things will turn around.
13:57
Speaker 1: And that's what this group is learning, these young guys,
13:59
Speaker 1: at least for the very time.
14:01
Speaker 2: That's a good breakdown, excellent analysis, and it makes it
14:04
Speaker 2: more intriguing because the idea that you know, I've covered
14:06
Speaker 2: teams in the past that just all of a sudden,
14:12
Speaker 2: the whole mentality of the group changed. You know, the
14:15
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine Rams for example, the twenty nineteen Blues,
14:18
Speaker 2: and those are extreme examples. I know but there have
14:22
Speaker 2: been some other teams where they're just a lot you
14:26
Speaker 2: saw little success, and then it just generated more success
14:30
Speaker 2: because they would go into places and just feel like,
14:35
Speaker 2: you know, we we can't lose, We're not going to lose,
14:38
Speaker 2: you know. And yeah, they would lose at times, but
14:41
Speaker 2: that didn't shake them or rattle them at all. They
14:43
Speaker 2: immediately rebound it. So, I mean, that's a really hard
14:46
Speaker 2: thing to find. That's something that's like you can't order
14:49
Speaker 2: that up from, you know, a store, and you can't
14:53
Speaker 2: you can't hire a coach to come in and you know,
14:57
Speaker 2: make sure that while you're learning how to win coach.
15:00
Speaker 2: It doesn't work that way. It's just something that happens organically,
15:03
Speaker 2: but it's pretty powerful when it does happen. And it
15:06
Speaker 2: seems to me like they're well on the way, but
15:07
Speaker 2: we're going to find out. I mean, the Diamondbacks are here.
15:10
Speaker 2: The Cardinals got a stretch. I don't have to tell
15:12
Speaker 2: you they got They have a stretch where except for
15:14
Speaker 2: the Orioles, who are just awful, all the other teams
15:17
Speaker 2: are going to play over the next eighteen games are
15:19
Speaker 2: like really good or good or a team like Toronto.
15:23
Speaker 2: They've been under five hundred a little bit, but they
15:26
Speaker 2: have really good talent. So the Cardinals are really going
15:29
Speaker 2: to have a pretty pretty extensive grind here against quality teams.
15:33
Speaker 2: And so that's one thing about an underdog that exceeds
15:36
Speaker 2: expectations the way they have. And you know, it's funny,
15:39
Speaker 2: naturally they're getting a lot of run. People are writing
15:41
Speaker 2: about them, talking about them outside of the athletic which
15:45
Speaker 2: always writes about him and talks about them. But here's
15:48
Speaker 2: the thing about an underdog when everyone's written them off
15:50
Speaker 2: before the season starts, and then all of a sudden,
15:52
Speaker 2: you know, they're feeling their oats and all of a
15:54
Speaker 2: sudden they're winning and they're winning and they're winning and
15:56
Speaker 2: they're oh, oh, the Cardinals are a surprise team. But
16:00
Speaker 2: the people that thought they'd be a lowsy team, and
16:03
Speaker 2: I'm talking about more outside Saint Louis, but maybe some fans,
16:05
Speaker 2: maybe some media, once they slip, you know, once they
16:10
Speaker 2: slip up and maybe have a bad week, it's like, oh, okay,
16:14
Speaker 2: yeah see, you know so that like it or not,
16:17
Speaker 2: And I think this fits the thing you said that,
16:19
Speaker 2: you know, they have the underdog mentality and the younger
16:22
Speaker 2: guys like it. They're gonna have to prove themselves all
16:25
Speaker 2: season long. You know, people will not entirely accept them
16:29
Speaker 2: as the real deal, because as soon as there's some failure,
16:34
Speaker 2: not losing a series to the Tigers, or actually they
16:37
Speaker 2: go into this series against the Diamondbacks having lost three
16:39
Speaker 2: of their last four, that's nothing. That's a blip. But
16:43
Speaker 2: I know how this game, this racket works in the media,
16:46
Speaker 2: and you know, well, it's like, well, I didn't pick
16:49
Speaker 2: them to be any good, and so then you are
16:51
Speaker 2: grudgingly acknowledge, well, they're pretty good. But as soon as
16:53
Speaker 2: they lose it and say, okay, see that's what I thought.
16:56
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny the psychology behind this, or you know.
17:00
Speaker 1: I'm wrong every day I will and I'm like, what
17:04
Speaker 1: do you got? What did I ask you to pay?
17:06
Speaker 2: I know I'd be.
17:08
Speaker 1: Happy to be wrong about these twenty twenty five Cardinals.
17:10
Speaker 4: I am.
17:11
Speaker 1: It is so fun covering winning baseball. A quick tangent
17:14
Speaker 1: before we get back on track. Sure, I just since
17:19
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. I was spoiled in twenty twenty two
17:21
Speaker 1: with my second year on the beat. You have just
17:24
Speaker 1: an incredible run. Albert comes back. It's Yachtie's last year,
17:27
Speaker 1: Wayne Wright's still great and you have an Central champion team,
17:32
Speaker 1: two MVP candidates, and I was like, Yep, this is it.
17:35
Speaker 1: This is Cardinals baseball. This is what I signed up for.
17:37
Speaker 1: Fire me up. We know how things went from there.
17:41
Speaker 1: And it was lost on me a little bit because
17:43
Speaker 1: over the last two seasons, really there hasn't been a
17:47
Speaker 1: lot of compelling Cardinals baseball. But over the last two
17:50
Speaker 1: weeks or so, I've had so much fun diving into
17:53
Speaker 1: specific plays that have allowed the team to win, or
17:55
Speaker 1: specific usage or playing the matchups. I mean, in Allie's
17:59
Speaker 1: office on Wednesday morn, the Beat writers and him went
18:01
Speaker 1: back and forth on the different matchups in Game two
18:03
Speaker 1: of that Tiger series. Should he have let Matt's face
18:06
Speaker 1: Labor Torres, did he pull Eric Fetti at the right time?
18:08
Speaker 1: Should he have pinch up Pedro Pajes? Should he have
18:10
Speaker 1: left Lady in there? And it was all just healthy
18:13
Speaker 1: discussion where every opinion was valued, and credit to Alie
18:16
Speaker 1: for really opening up that discussion in the first place.
18:19
Speaker 1: And we just kind of went back and forth on
18:21
Speaker 1: different perspectives about the game because it mattered again, and
18:25
Speaker 1: that was so cool. That's what makes this stretch of
18:27
Speaker 1: Cardinals baseball fun. Is it sustainable? I don't know. I
18:30
Speaker 1: think it's fair to question that, and I think you
18:31
Speaker 1: and I have rightfully done so. But we've also done
18:34
Speaker 1: a nice job in acknowledging this play was perhaps unexpected,
18:38
Speaker 1: but that doesn't make it any less fun to watch
18:40
Speaker 1: in real time, and I'm going to try to enjoy
18:41
Speaker 1: it for as long as we can. It may fall apart.
18:44
Speaker 1: I have no idea of predicting that it may not.
18:46
Speaker 1: Maybe for a second. We have so much time and.
18:49
Speaker 2: This is all let me let me tie this in,
18:51
Speaker 2: you know, And this team has had some real drama
18:54
Speaker 2: even this past week, Aarnatto and Marmel talked about the lineup.
19:00
Speaker 2: Arnatto suggests basically says, hey, look, if you want to
19:03
Speaker 2: move me down, you should because these guys are So
19:05
Speaker 2: he moves him down. Then the next night he hits
19:07
Speaker 2: a two run bomb off of right school Right. You know,
19:12
Speaker 2: that's great stuff. Now he still might be a reduced
19:15
Speaker 2: player offensively, but that was a drammic moment. Ivon Herrera.
19:21
Speaker 2: Thirty days, he misses thirty games, he comes out and
19:24
Speaker 2: like until yesterday, he just was destroying pitchers. The guy
19:28
Speaker 2: is unbelievable. He really is. I had a great stat yesterday.
19:30
Speaker 2: I'm gonna brag. Uh going before yesterday, if On Herrera
19:36
Speaker 2: had twenty one RBIs on the season on sixty six
19:39
Speaker 2: plate appearances. Wan Soto had twenty in two hundred and
19:42
Speaker 2: fourteen plate appearances.
19:44
Speaker 1: Wow, that's a great wan so.
19:46
Speaker 2: Wan Soda makes nearly sixty two million dollars this year.
19:50
Speaker 2: Herrera been a young guy. He's still on the control contract.
19:52
Speaker 2: He makes like seven hundred, seven hundred or seven hundred
19:55
Speaker 2: and thirty thousan right, But I mean he's a beast.
19:59
Speaker 2: He's an absolute and none of this is a fluke. No,
20:01
Speaker 2: he's not going to hit four fifty this year, but
20:03
Speaker 2: none of it is a fluke. He's incredibly talent. He's
20:05
Speaker 2: a dramatic player. He's a dramatic as in, uh oh,
20:09
Speaker 2: he's coming up to the plate. I've actually caught myself
20:12
Speaker 2: doing that.
20:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, turns down. I'm watching this about.
20:16
Speaker 2: Right where I'm like reading something and monitoring the games.
20:18
Speaker 2: Oh herys up, Okay, let me put the phone down.
20:23
Speaker 2: You know, Victor Scott, I mean it's a week to
20:26
Speaker 2: go in training camp. He doesn't even have a job
20:28
Speaker 2: on the team. Yet you know, they still were debating
20:31
Speaker 2: what to do. Victor Scott's a that's a dramatic story.
20:35
Speaker 1: They told him the day that they the day before
20:37
Speaker 1: they booke camp, right the starting center fielder. We didn't
20:40
Speaker 1: even know. I mean I walked up to Roger Dean
20:43
Speaker 1: that day, the last day of spring training, thinking, I
20:47
Speaker 1: have they made a decision about centerfield yet? Do I?
20:50
Speaker 1: Are they taking both? Are they taking one? Who is it?
20:53
Speaker 1: And they told him that morning that's crazy.
20:56
Speaker 2: Miles, michaelis that's a good one. I know, Cardon's listen, man,
21:02
Speaker 2: I've been really tough on Miles. I thought, come on,
21:04
Speaker 2: he doesn't have it anymore. Right. The fact that he's
21:08
Speaker 2: been so outstanding is is fun. It's like it's a
21:13
Speaker 2: it's I don't know, it's not like this big overarching drama,
21:17
Speaker 2: but it is fun. It's a delightful thing to watch.
21:20
Speaker 2: And he like, he looks like he's in bolded by this.
21:23
Speaker 2: He's very confident. Steven Matts, you know, the guy that
21:29
Speaker 2: can't stay healthy. The guy's like, oh, they have to
21:30
Speaker 2: trade him, trade and trade him. You know, I was
21:34
Speaker 2: looking on stat casts in terms of like pitching run value,
21:36
Speaker 2: the two the two best pitchers at least in that metric.
21:39
Speaker 2: Matt's is number two, and he can start. He's a
21:43
Speaker 2: great reliever. I mean, it's a great story, and he's
21:45
Speaker 2: a really.
21:46
Speaker 1: Rotation of flow in terms of health and availability, He's
21:49
Speaker 1: been excellent.
21:51
Speaker 2: He's a really good dude too, he is, and I
21:53
Speaker 2: really enjoyed your interview with him. Kyle lay to me,
21:57
Speaker 2: is kind of an under under under aid drama. I mean,
22:01
Speaker 2: seventeenth round draft choice, minor league era was in the
22:05
Speaker 2: fives or six, his first, you know, first trip in
22:08
Speaker 2: the majors. He got beat up. I mean, where did
22:10
Speaker 2: this come from? That's pretty dramatic too, And I know
22:14
Speaker 2: I'm missing Supposo. Who the heck is?
22:16
Speaker 1: This guy is gone?
22:18
Speaker 2: Right? He shows up, you know, he's hit three forty
22:22
Speaker 2: or something and he's still getting big hits. I don't know.
22:26
Speaker 2: I love this stuff, right.
22:28
Speaker 1: It's just fun. It's a different.
22:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a different.
22:30
Speaker 1: Brandon baseball than I think most of us were expecting.
22:32
Speaker 1: And again, if it's sustainable or not, who's to say.
22:35
Speaker 1: I think that's where the real intrigue of the season lies.
22:37
Speaker 1: Can they keep us up? And yeah, will they how
22:40
Speaker 1: will they do so? Is it even possible?
22:42
Speaker 2: But before, and by the way, Libby, Matthew Libator, he's
22:46
Speaker 2: a top ten starter right now if you go by
22:48
Speaker 2: any any number of stats, he's legitimately really, really good.
22:52
Speaker 2: He's got a better fielding in independent y ra than
22:56
Speaker 2: Max Free, than Paul Skeen's. For God's sake, you know
23:00
Speaker 2: you can.
23:01
Speaker 1: Make the argument he's their best picture right now. And
23:02
Speaker 1: I agree, right.
23:04
Speaker 2: And I didn't mean to cut you off, but I
23:05
Speaker 2: did want to slight Libby. Libby's high on the list
23:08
Speaker 2: of dramatic events or dramatic changes anyway, I'm sorry. Go ahead, No, we're.
23:11
Speaker 1: Fine, I think when you're looking at like the transition year.
23:14
Speaker 1: We've talked about this before. Jordan Walker and Nolan Gorman
23:16
Speaker 1: are the designated faces of this movement, if you will.
23:20
Speaker 1: But and no, it hasn't gone well for them in
23:22
Speaker 1: a grand scheme of things, but for so many other
23:25
Speaker 1: players in that same kind of bubble, they've really taken
23:28
Speaker 1: this opportunity and excelled, and it's propelled the Cardinals perhaps
23:31
Speaker 1: ahead of their own timeline. But one player we need
23:34
Speaker 1: to talk about who is not a part of this
23:36
Speaker 1: youth movement we're going to get to after we hear
23:38
Speaker 1: from Arena Club.
23:40
Speaker 3: I just want to say, before Arena Club, if you
23:42
Speaker 3: were trying to very actively buy sell trade, it was
23:46
Speaker 3: very complicated and used a lot of mail that was unnecessary.
23:50
Speaker 3: I don't know I even know how to do it,
23:51
Speaker 3: but I'm glad we have Arena Club now because it's
23:53
Speaker 3: a one stop shop for everything card related. It is
23:55
Speaker 3: and right now you can get twenty percent off your
23:58
Speaker 3: first slab pack or your first card purchase by going
24:00
Speaker 3: to Arena club dot com slash f o u L
24:03
Speaker 3: use code fo u L. If you're a collector, you've
24:06
Speaker 3: got to check out Arena Club. Go get after it.
24:11
Speaker 1: Okay, Bernie, I have one question for you, and there's
24:14
Speaker 1: any right answers, so no pressure. Is Brendan Donovan an
24:19
Speaker 1: All Star this year?
24:21
Speaker 2: I think he's playing as someone who deserves to be
24:23
Speaker 2: an All Star this year. He's a plus defender. You
24:26
Speaker 2: can move him around. That's number one, two batting average,
24:29
Speaker 2: on base percentage, big hits, relentless. He sort of personifies
24:34
Speaker 2: the ideal of what you want the Cardinals to be
24:36
Speaker 2: and sets an example for everybody. A guy that I
24:41
Speaker 2: think it's safe to say gets the most out of
24:42
Speaker 2: his talent, and he's just putting up really, really good numbers.
24:45
Speaker 2: I mean he's got according to it, like Fangred, he's
24:48
Speaker 2: got one point seven war right now that leads the team,
24:51
Speaker 2: and that's only going to continue to grow, because this
24:55
Speaker 2: isn't a guy that's going to go through like three
24:57
Speaker 2: weeks and not hit. He's just so I think he's
25:01
Speaker 2: having an outstanding season. Now, will he get overlooked by
25:05
Speaker 2: through the selection process, maybe probably, But that doesn't mean
25:10
Speaker 2: he's undeserving. He's headed towards being a no doubter type
25:15
Speaker 2: of guy based on his performance.
25:17
Speaker 1: Well not if the sameless media can start spinning this narrative. Look,
25:21
Speaker 1: I don't think Brendan Donovan would start in an All
25:23
Speaker 1: Star game, but I absolutely think he is worthy of
25:26
Speaker 1: being an All Star in twenty twenty five when you
25:28
Speaker 1: think about what he's doing from a game standpoint, I mean,
25:31
Speaker 1: he's his three twenty three average, that's the third highest
25:33
Speaker 1: in the National League. The only two hitters above him
25:35
Speaker 1: Freddy Freeman, Will Smith. So yeah, that's some pretty good
25:38
Speaker 1: company he gets on base, he's been a true threat
25:41
Speaker 1: and the number three spot in the order, which is
25:43
Speaker 1: a hard place to be. He plays all over the infield,
25:46
Speaker 1: in the outfield too. He really is becoming a plus
25:48
Speaker 1: second baseman. They can't play him there every day, of course,
25:50
Speaker 1: because they need to rotate guys around, but you're confident
25:53
Speaker 1: of him even in left field, which is not his
25:55
Speaker 1: strongest position. He does, I hate to say this, heizes
26:00
Speaker 1: the cardinal way. He's gritty, he plays every day. He's
26:03
Speaker 1: going to be overlooked from a national standpoint because a
26:06
Speaker 1: lot of things about his game don't necessarily jump off
26:08
Speaker 1: the page, right. He's not going to overpower you with
26:10
Speaker 1: exit velow or hitting the ball out of the ballpark.
26:13
Speaker 1: But he just plays a good, crisp, clean brand of baseball.
26:17
Speaker 1: He reminds me a lot of those like twenty eleven
26:19
Speaker 1: twenty twelve guys, you know, like why fans love John
26:23
Speaker 1: Jay and Daniel descalso is because they've played the game
26:25
Speaker 1: like Brendan Donovan did. But no disrespect to those guys,
26:27
Speaker 1: Brendan Donovan's playing a little bit better. And I just
26:30
Speaker 1: think from a national standpoint, no, he's not going to
26:33
Speaker 1: have the name recognition, as you know, take your pick
26:35
Speaker 1: over the second basement in the national League. But he
26:37
Speaker 1: should be an All Star this year because he has
26:39
Speaker 1: been invaluable to the Saint Louis Cardinals and he was
26:43
Speaker 1: put in a place coming into the season where he
26:46
Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily in that bubble of the youth movement. He's
26:48
Speaker 1: twenty eight years old, but he is still someone the
26:50
Speaker 1: Cardinals wanted to build around. So he kind of came
26:53
Speaker 1: in there like without an identity as and I'm not
26:56
Speaker 1: part of this youth movement that they're going to focus on,
26:58
Speaker 1: but I'm also not yet a veteran. I'm kind of
27:00
Speaker 1: stuck in the middle, and he's thrived there. He's become,
27:03
Speaker 1: in my opinion, someone you build around because you need
27:06
Speaker 1: a player like Brennan Donovan to be a successful club,
27:09
Speaker 1: and I think he's proving that and I think he
27:10
Speaker 1: should be an All Star. I think he should be
27:11
Speaker 1: in Atlanta come July.
27:13
Speaker 2: And that was another great decision made by Oli Marvel
27:16
Speaker 2: to bat him third. I mean, I wasn't that's try,
27:20
Speaker 2: that's right. I didn't. I wasn't like, oh, yeah, that's
27:24
Speaker 2: a great move. I was kind of like, I wait
27:26
Speaker 2: and see. But it's interesting that was my reaction. You know,
27:30
Speaker 2: I did a look at that, you know, a week
27:31
Speaker 2: ago or so, and not to get into that, but
27:33
Speaker 2: he fits in really well among all major league number
27:36
Speaker 2: three hitters. I mean he's even slugging four fifty five.
27:39
Speaker 2: I mean, it's all there. And I'm not saying he's
27:42
Speaker 2: the best number three hitter in baseball, but I mean,
27:44
Speaker 2: I'm just saying he's He's on the list, like he's
27:46
Speaker 2: in the top ten or so. And that's quite a
27:49
Speaker 2: compliment to him because the number three hitter is going
27:51
Speaker 2: to have to blend his skills and you want him
27:53
Speaker 2: to be average on base slugging, you want that combination.
27:57
Speaker 2: And he's really really good. So no, I I think
28:01
Speaker 2: very highly of him. In fact, I have since he
28:04
Speaker 2: made his major league debut. You can just tell right
28:06
Speaker 2: away as a player, and I think he got caught
28:09
Speaker 2: in between for a while, do I go for power
28:13
Speaker 2: or do I go to draw walks. I think he
28:15
Speaker 2: was a little bit in the middle league, but he's
28:18
Speaker 2: kind of found it now. There's like he knows what
28:20
Speaker 2: he is. The dude. There are certain guys you look
28:23
Speaker 2: at and you just say simply, and this is coming
28:27
Speaker 2: from a stat boy, and I don't really need to
28:30
Speaker 2: throw stats around there are certain guys you look at
28:33
Speaker 2: them and you just say that, dude's a ballplayer, and
28:38
Speaker 2: that's Brendan Donald And that's a really that's a really
28:41
Speaker 2: high compliment.
28:42
Speaker 1: You're a spot on. If you are a Saint Louis
28:44
Speaker 1: Cardinal and someone dubs you a ballplayer, you're having a
28:46
Speaker 1: heck of a season. And I think that's the perfect
28:48
Speaker 1: way to pedomize Brendan Donovan. He's a ballplayer. He's earned
28:51
Speaker 1: the respect throughout the clubhouse because he just refuses to
28:53
Speaker 1: take a day off. He'll play any position they need
28:56
Speaker 1: him to. I mean, heck, he's even the team's emergency catcher.
28:58
Speaker 1: I mean, I know they have like seven on the
28:59
Speaker 1: roster at this point, but he's there. He's willing to
29:02
Speaker 1: do it. I just feel like we're seeing Brennan Donovan
29:04
Speaker 1: come into his own and really start to hit that
29:06
Speaker 1: maturation point as a player. I mean, he has sixty
29:09
Speaker 1: one hits. That's the most in the National League. No,
29:11
Speaker 1: he doesn't have a ton of thump that you'd probably
29:13
Speaker 1: want to see in your number three spot, But when
29:14
Speaker 1: you have Wilson Contreras Yvon Herrera behind you, you can
29:17
Speaker 1: get away with that. I just I really really like
29:21
Speaker 1: what we see on a Brennan Donovan this year. I
29:22
Speaker 1: think he kind of goes under the radar from a
29:24
Speaker 1: national perspective, and he goes under the radar in a
29:26
Speaker 1: transition year because the focus is on the youth. But
29:29
Speaker 1: Cardinals fans have a true cardinal and the way he
29:32
Speaker 1: plays the game to rally behind hopefully for years to come.
29:36
Speaker 1: And I think it's really fun to see that develop
29:38
Speaker 1: as well.
29:39
Speaker 2: You know, and you mentioned something and the thing about him
29:42
Speaker 2: and where does that four fifty five selegging percentage come from.
29:45
Speaker 2: He's tied for the National league league in doubles. We
29:47
Speaker 2: know he gets a lot of singles. We know he
29:48
Speaker 2: only has I'm looking at it now because I had
29:50
Speaker 2: to look at it. He only only has three home runs.
29:53
Speaker 2: But the guy hits doubles all the time. And he
29:56
Speaker 2: also hits to the opposite field. He hits the off fields.
29:58
Speaker 2: He's a really hard guy to defend. He basically whatever
30:02
Speaker 2: the defensive positioning the other team uses to say, well
30:06
Speaker 2: this is where he likes to hit. Now now he'll
30:10
Speaker 2: he'll beat you because he'll hit anywhere where he sees
30:13
Speaker 2: an opening. He's got great bat control. I mean, there's
30:15
Speaker 2: just so much to like about him. But you know,
30:18
Speaker 2: the Cardinals fans like love throwback type players. I think
30:22
Speaker 2: all baseball fans do. Yeah, and he's a throwback type
30:26
Speaker 2: of player. He could have He could have fit in
30:27
Speaker 2: with the Cardinals of the sixties, you know. I mean,
30:31
Speaker 2: that's not no high parable he could have, you know,
30:34
Speaker 2: because he's just he does everything well, and he's hard nosed,
30:37
Speaker 2: he's smart. You know, he's incredibly competitive. You know, he
30:43
Speaker 2: checks all the boxes. Like there are a lot of
30:46
Speaker 2: empty calorie major league hitters empty calorie. You know, you
30:52
Speaker 2: don't know if there's any real substance. Okay, this guy
30:55
Speaker 2: might hit a lot of home runs, but what about
30:56
Speaker 2: the rest of his game. There's a lot of empty calory.
30:58
Speaker 2: He's not There's nothing empty calllery about Brandon Donna. It's
31:01
Speaker 2: like everything counts that he does.
31:04
Speaker 1: That's a great way to put it. I will only
31:05
Speaker 1: be referring to hitters as empty calorie from now on.
31:08
Speaker 1: That's great.
31:09
Speaker 2: It will be empty cot Well, I will get into
31:11
Speaker 2: that empty and you can say, I don't need to
31:16
Speaker 2: get nasty. Okay, I did that yesterday ridiculously so so anyway, Okay,
31:21
Speaker 2: that's some thought though. Anyway, maybe maybe down the road.
31:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we'll fix it. We'll work on it. We
31:27
Speaker 1: can't be perfect, Bernie, as much as we fry. Heading
31:30
Speaker 1: into the weekend, another three game home series against Diamondbacks
31:35
Speaker 1: should be a very good pitching mash up your probables.
31:37
Speaker 1: Miles Michaelis vers Zach Gallon on Friday, Libby Matthew Libertore
31:41
Speaker 1: versus Meryl Kelly on Saturday. Sunny Gray takes on Brandon
31:44
Speaker 1: fat on Sunday. So yeah, well pitched should be very compelling.
31:47
Speaker 1: The Diamondbacks have a lot of a lot of different
31:49
Speaker 1: athleticism on their roster. They play in a brutal division
31:52
Speaker 1: in the NL West. Everyone except Colorado is good. There
31:55
Speaker 1: what a sad, sad sentence for Rockies fans. But I'm
31:58
Speaker 1: super excited to see again another test for this Cardinals club.
32:01
Speaker 1: Let's see they can keep it rolling and bounce back
32:03
Speaker 1: after this Tiger series. We should be able to learn
32:05
Speaker 1: something from this one, Dave rest.
32:06
Speaker 2: They should be see they should be filled filled up
32:10
Speaker 2: with pep when they come in to work tomorrow.
32:12
Speaker 1: So we'll see how many are at Albert Pooles's top
32:14
Speaker 1: golf charity event tonight that's usually a.
32:16
Speaker 2: Big one or maybe not. Okay, fine, I'm sure, No,
32:21
Speaker 2: that's that's exciting.
32:23
Speaker 1: I think so.
32:24
Speaker 2: Yeah. So every everything's good with the Cardinals. I think
32:27
Speaker 2: Ali's doing a great job. I love the fact that
32:28
Speaker 2: he had a the fact that the day after the
32:31
Speaker 2: game he sat down with you all and like honestly
32:35
Speaker 2: wanted you to say what you thought about his decisions. See.
32:39
Speaker 2: Some people would hear that and say, well, that's that's
32:42
Speaker 2: kind of an insecure guy to do that. No, I don't.
32:44
Speaker 2: I don't see that. I've gotten to know him. He's
32:46
Speaker 2: not like that. He just he actually likes to know
32:50
Speaker 2: what the opinions are out there.
32:52
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and and he so.
32:57
Speaker 2: He actually it's it's helpful for him to know people
33:00
Speaker 2: see certain things because he usually has not a pushback
33:05
Speaker 2: because he's not nasty about it, but he's usually got
33:08
Speaker 2: a acounter move or a counter opinion that makes sense.
33:11
Speaker 2: And LaRussa was like that too, you know, just things
33:16
Speaker 2: would blow up on Tony, but I would talk to
33:19
Speaker 2: him and he would go very in depth about stuff
33:22
Speaker 2: that he did that didn't work. And he wasn't trying
33:24
Speaker 2: to cover his butt as he likes to say I would.
33:27
Speaker 2: He would just say, listen, man, I don't care what
33:29
Speaker 2: manager it is. Sometimes you make you make the absolute
33:32
Speaker 2: right decision based on the information, yet and sometimes it
33:36
Speaker 2: just doesn't work. It doesn't mean it was the wrong decision.
33:38
Speaker 2: And that's so true. And I think that applies to
33:40
Speaker 2: what you were talking about with some of his stuff
33:42
Speaker 2: Tuesday and that loss to the Tigers. But I didn't
33:45
Speaker 2: mean to like drag this out, but that was pretty
33:48
Speaker 2: cool that he did that. Oli's a different guy this
33:50
Speaker 2: season too. I think he finally senses on cam Wex
33:54
Speaker 2: the other day. The Gashouse Gang Tuesday, people were just
33:56
Speaker 2: lighting it up, Ollie, you're doing great. We love you,
34:00
Speaker 2: and I even said it at one point, I said,
34:02
Speaker 2: what is this, Ahley? They like you all of a sudden.
34:06
Speaker 2: Can you start with I don't he started. He started
34:10
Speaker 2: laughing about it. But then of course he'd lost too
34:11
Speaker 2: in a row, soa now he's back to reality now.
34:14
Speaker 1: Before I think it was Monday's game and he had
34:16
Speaker 1: these two new They're so fresh, these new dunks, and
34:20
Speaker 1: they're really nice. I mean, I couldn't help it. I said, Wow,
34:23
Speaker 1: things change a lot when you win. You did not
34:26
Speaker 1: like that but you know what, that's what I like
34:27
Speaker 1: about him is that we can have that banter back
34:30
Speaker 1: and forth. And I think if you haven't checked this
34:31
Speaker 1: out already Cardinals fans, his Tuesday interviews at noon on
34:35
Speaker 1: Cameo X with Bernie and the Gashouse Gang thirty minutes unplugged,
34:39
Speaker 1: really good stuff. Allows you to see a better insight
34:41
Speaker 1: more than what you can get from two minutes off
34:43
Speaker 1: the post game show. It's just really really good stuff.
34:46
Speaker 1: So check that out. Bernie and I were back with
34:49
Speaker 1: you after the series. We'll do another series breakdown for you.
34:52
Speaker 1: You guys seem to really like those, so thank you
34:53
Speaker 1: for the feedback. And then the Cardinals are on the
34:55
Speaker 1: road again, six games Baltimore, Texas and interleague action. But
35:00
Speaker 1: let's get to the Diamondbacks first. For Bernie, I'm Katie.
35:02
Speaker 1: Thanks as always for watching Cardinal Territory. Have a good
35:05
Speaker 1: one