Latest / Basic Folk / Rachel McCartney's Return to Music, Being a Horse Girl, & Accidentally Snubbing David Gray, ep. 351

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Rachel McCartney's Return to Music, Being a Horse Girl, & Accidentally Snubbing David Gray, ep. 351 · Basic Folk

0:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome to Basic Folk where we have honest conversations with folk musicians on the bluegrass situation.
0:18
[SPEAKER_02]: It is me, Cindy House, and I host this podcast.
0:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for being here.
0:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so today a real dream for me personally.
0:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Rachel McCartney has not released music in almost 20 years.
0:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I have been waiting.
0:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I met Rachel in the early 2000s when I was in college.
0:36
[SPEAKER_02]: She was my
0:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Favorite singer.
0:38
[SPEAKER_02]: I would go see her perform all the time.
0:40
[SPEAKER_02]: She played a special Concert on my 21st birthday Attoe in Porter Square in Cambridge.
0:48
[SPEAKER_02]: She means a lot to me, and I'm so happy that she's here before we get into that Let's talk about ways that we can stay in touch You can sign up for basic folks folks newsletter, which is a once a month email that tells you who's been on the podcast and who's coming up
1:02
[SPEAKER_02]: You can sign up for that at the link in the show notes or you can go to basicfolk.com and sign up there.
1:07
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1:14
[SPEAKER_02]: We're also a listener supported podcast.
1:17
[SPEAKER_02]: You can make a contribution by going to basicfolk.com slash donate and there is also a link in the show notes.
1:24
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, for 17 years, Rachel McCartney had set aside a music career and all of the anxiety and uncertainty that came along with it.
1:33
[SPEAKER_02]: She was in her mid-30s and wanted a family and some stability.
1:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Once she started a new life as an icy universe and mother to two young children, her musical career and the momentum she had created over the past three decades in New England and Western Pennsylvania didn't much cross her mind.
1:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I met Rachel when I was 18 years old while at Emerson College.
1:53
[SPEAKER_02]: It was the year 2000 and the folks seen in Boston was pop-in with incredible talent.
1:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Lori McKenna, Deb Talon and Nias Mitchell and many others were selling out shows left and right in listening rooms across New England.
2:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Rachel was a frequent name that popped up in the newspaper on radio as a busker in the subway and around town it venues like the Kendall Cafe, towed and of course the folk mother ship club has seemed.
2:19
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a lucrative time for the singer songwriter with a big voice and great songs.
2:24
[SPEAKER_02]: She would frequently appear with another Boston famous yet under the radar, songwriter, the Atlanta-born Brian Webb.
2:30
[SPEAKER_02]: If you were at Rachel's recent album release, you were treated to some Rachel and Brian classics that lit up the WERS coffee house in the early 2000s.
2:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Needless to say, I am so thrilled that Rachel's release new music and I'm very excited that she agreed to be on the podcast today.
2:46
[SPEAKER_02]: In our conversation, we discuss her move from Iowa to Massachusetts as a teen and how the impact of that has influenced the way she makes decisions for her kids.
2:56
[SPEAKER_02]: She talks about her relationship to the guitar, her singing and her songwriting,
3:00
[SPEAKER_02]: She addresses the allegations that, indeed, she is a horse girl through and through.
3:04
[SPEAKER_02]: She moved to Pittsburgh in her 20s on a whim, which is something we haven't common.
3:09
[SPEAKER_02]: She reflects on Pittsburgh, busking, and Boston, and what it was like to choose a stable life with a family and nursing.
3:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Her new album, Taming Dragons, was produced by Zach Hickman, and she shares what it felt like to be in the studio after nearly two decades.
3:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I was pleased to point out that dragons, also appear on Tori Emul's new album in the
3:29
[SPEAKER_02]: which then led Rachel to share what the dragon symbolizes for her.
3:33
[SPEAKER_02]: We did this interview in my backyard, much like Oprah, and you can hear birds, lawnmowers, and you can also hear francy in the background.
3:41
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think it all adds to the atmosphere.
3:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I have interviewed Rachel many, many times, but it was all before my cerebral cortex was fully formed.
3:50
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is basically the first real interview I have done with the fabulous Rachel McCartney.
3:55
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll take a listen to a song from her new album in the shape that I am,
3:58
[SPEAKER_02]: and then we'll get to our conversation with Rachel McCartney on Basic Folk.
4:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll be out taking dry guns to come home in a shape that I am.
4:38
[SPEAKER_00]: With a heart of jabs in there and a sword that can bleed.
5:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It says, you're my shape of a world.
5:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so excited to talk to you Rachel.
5:25
[SPEAKER_02]: So glad you could be here in my backyard with me.
5:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's really cool.
5:30
[SPEAKER_02]: I also feel like, I was telling my wife, I was like, I've interviewed Rachel like 75 times, but this is like the first interview.
5:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like this is like our first real interview because I didn't know how to interview people back in the day.
5:46
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just so excited.
5:49
[SPEAKER_01]: That's wonderful.
5:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I can, and also, I believe we really didn't have much one-on-one.
5:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
5:59
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a lot of like a group hangs.
6:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, yeah.
6:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Back in the day.
6:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
6:04
[SPEAKER_02]: So, all right, here we go.
6:05
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, we're going to start at the beginning.
6:07
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
6:07
[SPEAKER_02]: You were born in a small town in Iowa.
6:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
6:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I was actually born in Oak Park, Illinois, which is just right across the street from Chicago.
6:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
6:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I lived there for a couple of years.
6:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I moved to a small town in Iowa, which I consider held my formative years.
6:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So from about two until about 12, 11 or 12.
6:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So the, you know, being born.
6:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I essentially was born in Iowa.
6:44
[SPEAKER_01]: That's where I became kind of conscious.
6:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay.
6:47
[SPEAKER_02]: So how do you think that time in Iowa continues to impact who you are?
6:52
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's such a good question because I think for everybody, I think this is universal truth that, you know, where we spend our formative years, it really does shape,
7:10
[SPEAKER_01]: are kind of core worldview and essence of how we go about and walk through our life, right?
7:21
[SPEAKER_01]: When anybody asks me where I'm from, I think,
7:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Iowa.
7:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it was a very unassuming childhood.
7:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a little farm, you know, hardly a farm, just a bunch of trees that my dad planted in the middle of a cornfield.
7:41
[SPEAKER_01]: My parents were pretty industrious.
7:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I was industrious.
7:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted a pony.
7:45
[SPEAKER_01]: We grabbed a pony from a farmer.
7:50
[SPEAKER_01]: in the next town, brought her home, I was self-taught with horse care and I didn't know anything and I got it a lot wrong.
8:02
[SPEAKER_01]: But I worked, you know, babysat for horse money and I did chores and I was just an industrious kid.
8:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that way of being has just been part
8:21
[SPEAKER_01]: passionate about.
8:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
8:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
8:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's cool.
8:25
[SPEAKER_02]: So you and your family moved to Massachusetts when you were held.
8:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I was going into sixth grade, which was just what a great time.
8:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
8:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I will.
8:39
[SPEAKER_01]: A very, you know, unassuming little skinny kid.
8:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I wore rangler jeans and like t-shirts like this.
8:48
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I had no kind of style, long blonde hair.
8:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I was, you know, cute as a button, but...
8:59
[SPEAKER_01]: It was not anything, I wasn't ready for the sixth grade mentality of like the East Coast fishermen girls.
9:08
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're a North Shore Massachusetts.
9:11
[SPEAKER_01]: North Shore, yeah, Essex Massachusetts.
9:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So this little fishing village with these percosious sixth grade middle school girls.
9:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was just like,
9:25
[SPEAKER_01]: completely out of, like a fish out of water, I didn't know anything about how to be cool or, you know, make up or whatever.
9:35
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's hard enough, I think, to be 11 or 12 years old.
9:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And then having that huge move must have been so hard.
9:43
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you think about yourself at that age, going through that move through the lens of like now that you're a mom?
9:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so, um, well, I, a lot of the decisions I've made for my kids are informed by that experience.
10:07
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I want to move somewhere where the winters aren't as intense.
10:15
[SPEAKER_02]: But my feelings, that's been a dream of yours for a long time.
10:19
[SPEAKER_01]: But my kids have been insconced in a system that's been really good for them, and they have a home, and they've grown up there, and I'm not gonna do that, you know?
10:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's important for them to feel locked in.
10:34
[SPEAKER_01]: where they are and now especially they're in high school.
10:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So we've got just a couple more years of my oldest is going to graduate this year and my youngest is going to be a sophomore.
10:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're we're pretty close to the home stretch.
10:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, in home stretch.
10:49
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think, um,
10:52
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's big sweeping transitions that I would never ask or impose upon them.
10:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not upset at my parents for having made that transition.
11:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually kind of grateful because a lot of opportunities opened up for me, obviously, on the East Coast, a little more progressive.
11:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think I would have been pretty stifled in the small town Midwest.
11:22
[SPEAKER_01]: But just as far as emotional impact, I think I've probably been a little more careful.
11:32
[SPEAKER_01]: and the timing, like if you're going to move to it when your baby is to writing, right?
11:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
11:38
[SPEAKER_02]: So you started writing songs like really seriously in your 20s.
11:43
[SPEAKER_02]: You were writing songs when you were little, like a little kid, but seriously started writing in your 20s.
11:48
[SPEAKER_02]: How is the feeling of writing a song changed for you over the years and how has the function of songwriting evolved?
11:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's a good question.
11:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'll start with the feeling first.
12:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of, I think, like in my 20s, I was very serious about putting forth an idea with music.
12:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of those songs came from a really pure, emotional place that,
12:27
[SPEAKER_01]: that I hadn't processed fully, and maybe we never do process them fully, maybe that's the stage.
12:37
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, first it's the emotional kind of landscape that comes out and the song is created, but I do feel like it was much more of a direct kind of emotional outpouring onto the page
12:58
[SPEAKER_01]: that was that served a purpose right and I think probably I may have been a little bit more free with the songwriting.
13:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm a little more analytical about it.
13:16
[SPEAKER_01]: which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing.
13:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I just think maybe I'm better at combining that emotional response to whatever with a sort of logical progression or maybe a more of a story line.
13:35
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think my songs are pretty, I think of them sometimes as,
13:44
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, watercolors or waterpainting, you know, sometimes the landscape isn't really that clear, you know, sometimes it's just like blobs on a page, yeah, that kind of look cool together.
14:00
[SPEAKER_02]: That's cool.
14:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I read you started on classical guitar when you were eight.
14:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
14:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
14:08
[SPEAKER_02]: What has been your relationship to the guitar throughout your life?
14:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
14:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
14:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I started playing classical guitar, I was inspired at a concert.
14:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe at my dad's college and
14:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not even sure my parents, you know, jumped on that and I got this classical nylon string guitar.
14:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I started.
14:40
[SPEAKER_01]: playing lessons in, we lived in Atlanta for a year and when I was in fourth grade, my dad took a sabbatical.
14:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So in Atlanta, I started classical guitar lessons.
14:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when we went back to Iowa, I was so I was going into fifth grade then.
14:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I continued to do for work.
15:01
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a professor, okay, of American literature and English professor.
15:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, yeah, and a writer and all that.
15:08
[SPEAKER_02]: I must have had some serious books in your house.
15:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yes, yes, yes.
15:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not much of a reader, so I didn't want to inherit that.
15:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I do love a good book, you know, and a novel and some of the classics, but it's just not
15:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I think sometimes when your parents are really into something, you're just kind of like, all right, that's wicked boring.
15:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
15:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I do know.
15:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a grown-up thing.
15:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I continued with the classical guitar from when I was eight until, you know, about 15, 16.
15:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I would have, when we moved to Essex, I continued that I had a Japanese guitar player.
15:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And he came over and I learned the Suzuki method, which is primarily by ear.
15:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't understand a word he said ever.
15:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So my lessons were, I could read,
16:04
[SPEAKER_01]: notes.
16:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't understand much about theory.
16:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of strange, but I could read, and I can still read to this day, a classical piece.
16:17
[SPEAKER_01]: But, and then I started the songwriting, and then it was like, classical wasn't cool, you know?
16:23
[SPEAKER_01]: But, in the meantime, I gained, you know, some
16:32
[SPEAKER_01]: that.
16:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's very cool.
16:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, all right now let's talk about your singing.
16:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's a quote from Ellis Paul.
16:46
[SPEAKER_02]: We all know Ellis.
16:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Rachel's voice may be one of the most perfect manifestations of heaven.
16:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Any of us are ever likely to experience in this humble earthly domain.
16:59
[SPEAKER_02]: What a quote.
16:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
17:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
17:02
[SPEAKER_02]: You have cited singing influences like Stevie Nix, Bonnie Rape, Bessie Smith, Elephate Sherald as early influences and vocal teachers.
17:12
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I also have read that, like, advice that you would give to somebody who wanted to start music is like, learn the craft, but then put yourself into that craft.
17:26
[SPEAKER_02]: So, can you talk about emulating those vocalists and then like mixing in your own style into that delivery?
17:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a really good point.
17:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, there's something that happens with the ear, so, right, I think I've always had a really astute ear.
17:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I can kind of sound like somebody, you know what I mean?
17:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I can learn something really quick.
17:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I can learn, are you good at impressions?
18:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I am.
18:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I am.
18:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'll come out with a voice just kind of randomly.
18:11
[SPEAKER_01]: As long as I don't think about it too much, but there are a couple that I've practiced, I think.
18:18
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, party trick or whatever.
18:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
18:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so I don't think I've thought about putting my own spin on my voice, but I do once in a while, I can hear like the influence of whoever.
18:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I think because I sang a lot of those songs when I was 16, 17, until I was about 20, I was in a rock and roll cover band and we covered a lot of those artists.
18:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would be learning the songs and then singing them with the band.
19:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Not trying to sound like them, but it's inevitable that I would kind of
19:08
[SPEAKER_01]: pick up some of those nuances and hopefully make them my own.
19:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Although I never really, I think I was sensitive to sounding too much like somebody and I would always get comparisons, which is fine, but I think getting comparisons would drive me further into finding my own voice, my own sound.
19:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, is the rock band you were talking about the Walker band?
19:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
19:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So you've heard about them.
19:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you tell the famous story of you sneaking out of the house?
19:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this thing with this dead band?
19:54
[SPEAKER_01]: This dead band totally, guys.
19:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, when I think back to how crazy and how I would never
20:08
[SPEAKER_01]: My kids first of all would never be able to sneak out of the house at 16.
20:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know, I just walked out the front door, you know, and how would I get down there?
20:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose I'd ride my bike, I mean, I was 16, I didn't drive, maybe I was driving.
20:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was just about maybe three, half a mile down the road.
20:34
[SPEAKER_01]: All of the guys in the band were friends of my dad, neighbors, and I don't know what they were thinking.
20:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just normal.
20:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I showed up and I would practice these songs and then I'd go.
20:56
[SPEAKER_01]: This was their, their bro time.
20:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
21:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So I came into the bro time.
21:03
[SPEAKER_01]: The bro time was like probably three hours on Friday nights.
21:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was there for maybe like 45 minutes or an hour doing the girl songs.
21:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So whatever, you know.
21:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
21:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I would meet them at gigs and play the, play the chick songs and sing some back up.
21:22
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it's just wild.
21:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And my parents did know about it.
21:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Like nobody was keeping the secret.
21:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's funny because I've never really talked to my parents about what was going through their heads.
21:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm going to because it's called them right now.
21:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's call them right now.
21:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's see what I'm on the line.
21:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know why I've never even talked to them about it.
21:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I think honestly at this point, they would be like,
21:48
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of clueless.
21:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they were kind of in their own world, dealing with stuff.
21:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, in a lot of ways, I was kind of a feral child.
22:00
[SPEAKER_02]: So in your mid-twenties, you started busking or playing on the streets of Cambridge and the Indian the subway quite a bit, which is a huge deal for Boston.
22:13
[SPEAKER_02]: in the 80s, 90s, in the olds.
22:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
22:16
[SPEAKER_02]: This was a time where you could make a living.
22:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
22:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Something like this.
22:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
22:23
[SPEAKER_02]: What would an average day look like for you at that time when you were busking?
22:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so I would very early.
22:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm an early riser.
22:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Always happen.
22:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and so that worked out pretty great.
22:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I liked the morning, the morning rush in the tea station.
22:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I would do, I would play Davis a lot.
22:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd get up at five, haul my equipment down there, I had a dog with me, and we'd sit on the bench, and I'd have my coffee, and I would just warm up and play, and the people would back before earphones, you know.
23:05
[SPEAKER_01]: back before everybody had earbuds and um and they carried cash.
23:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So everybody carried cash.
23:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Nobody had earbuds and um uh it was a free time.
23:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Really was.
23:25
[SPEAKER_01]: But um yeah so I'd set up and I'd play from about let's start like actually playing songs
23:34
[SPEAKER_01]: probably 630 until about 930.
23:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I would get up, pack up my stuff, go back to my apartment, and then do whatever the hack I wanted to, and probably hang out with friends.
23:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I mean, talk about feral.
24:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I was feral, and I would do that.
24:03
[SPEAKER_01]: in the winter and the colder months, I would play the T-stations, and then in the warmer months Harvard Square was my main jam.
24:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, early in the morning, go get a spot, camp out, share it with something, Peter Maldi and I used to, you know, I used to go get the spot, and then he'd come in later.
24:24
[SPEAKER_01]: He showed me his busking gear and he, you know, directed me towards like what to get and then once I had some money, I could buy that, so I bought the real stuff and yeah Peter was a big, you kind of trained me.
24:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, yeah, busking mentor.
24:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he was my busking mentor and, um,
24:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And then Brian and I started busking together.
24:55
[SPEAKER_01]: My friend, Rod, would come out.
24:59
[SPEAKER_01]: But I would be out there, like get a skull and a coffee at Obampa.
25:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, there and any of my orange-sized skulls.
25:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, drink my coffee and just,
25:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I'm in a living that way, um, so amazing.
25:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Very great.
25:18
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of our friends did back.
25:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, pretty cool.
25:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, very cool.
25:21
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
25:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, let's talk about the Pittsburgh years.
25:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, you lived in Pittsburgh, like mid 90s to the year 2000, um, which sounds like you floated into town in a very bohemian, like flat fashion.
25:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Some artists friends live there and you followed your bliss.
25:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
25:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, also it must have been so cheap.
25:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, incredible.
25:43
[SPEAKER_02]: What was your scene like there and why do you think Pittsburgh was such an important time for you?
25:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, so My artist friends there were visual and theater
25:58
[SPEAKER_01]: primarily.
26:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know any musicians except for actually Carl Mullen was one of my Duma.
26:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah yeah yeah my boyfriend at the time Jeffrey Carpenter who is a big you know now kind of a big deal in the theater world there he had a pretty
26:27
[SPEAKER_01]: vigorous theater group, he knew Carl, and once I met Carl, I mean, I was playing everywhere.
26:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was Carl and I played together in like art installations, theater installations, we would do the music part, and there would be, you know, very interactive.
26:51
[SPEAKER_01]: theater, and then I started to play clubs, and then I got to know other musicians, the vibro kings, oh boy, I'm in trouble if I don't remember some more, you know, rusted roots, some of the gang from rusted roots Liz, Liz Berlin and I would play together.
27:14
[SPEAKER_02]: She is the nicest person.
27:16
[SPEAKER_02]: She just alive.
27:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
27:18
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like a damn angel.
27:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Also shout out to Liz Berlin for her and her husband, opening Mr. Smalls.
27:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I would miss her smalls.
27:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I had a time when all the venues in Pittsburgh sucked.
27:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
27:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And she and her husband and boy have faded up.
27:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
27:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's doing well.
27:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Really well.
27:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
27:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
27:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
27:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I was there when Mr. Smalls was just, I mean, just start.
27:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
27:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And for those who don't know, Mr. Smalls is a music venue in Pittsburgh.
27:49
[SPEAKER_02]: It's actually in Millville, Pennsylvania, which is right across the river.
27:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And it is an old church that they transition into a music venue.
27:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And for a while, it was like the only game in town.
28:02
[SPEAKER_02]: and whenever I would bring people there, I'd be like, you know, a rest of the group built this.
28:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, this is sending me on my way, money.
28:13
[SPEAKER_01]: This is sending me on my way, money.
28:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure, for sure.
28:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And they did,
28:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Isn't it so exciting when every five years that Song gets used and like an enterprise commercial or some kind of insurance commercial and you're like, yeah, yeah, you get that you got it get that commercial money get those dollars.
28:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
28:33
[SPEAKER_01]: We.
28:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, those guys were great.
28:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Crisis car was Correll, Tunutore's band, Correll went on to Correll and I collaborated on some stuff he played on, a record of mine that I made there.
28:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Correll has been out in LA and he's been in the Google Dolls for the past, you know, 20 years, they're whole, they're whole, pretty much, they're whole career.
29:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
29:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And
29:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he and I are still in touch.
29:05
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I need to get him this album.
29:09
[SPEAKER_01]: He knew it was coming out, but it's just, you know, people get caught up in there.
29:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Stuff.
29:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, I need to send him a, I don't know, not a copy.
29:19
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't, there's no copy.
29:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Send him a link.
29:22
[SPEAKER_02]: A link, yes, send him a link.
29:35
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the best story.
29:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I was Carl, got me to gig, opening for David Gray at a probably 500 seat theater is it Rosewood?
29:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Rosewood.
29:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Was it Rosewood?
29:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Or Metropol.
29:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are the two venues that people would talk about all the time.
29:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And the Sear-Moss.
29:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It was the Rosewood Rosewood.
29:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was a really good.
29:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So 500, you know, a lot of standing, not really a sitting, that was some sitting, a lot of standing.
30:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I went in and so I'm the opening act and I'm, you know, I'm kind of just there to tune my guitar, sit on a bench.
30:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's nobody there, of course.
30:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a couple of people milling around.
30:24
[SPEAKER_01]: But I go in and I'm working on my guitar and this guy comes over.
30:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know who Dave Gray is at this point.
30:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I know, internet.
30:32
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't know what he looks like.
30:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know.
30:33
[SPEAKER_01]: He looks like I think I may have heard a couple of his songs, Carl played for me.
30:40
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm sitting there tuning my guitar and this guy comes up to me and he's kind of chatting a little and he's got what looks like a janitor shirt on and I was I remember I had just had like
30:55
[SPEAKER_01]: argument with my boyfriend.
30:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was in that headspace of like way in my head, way like kind of few me and just you know that that not great space.
31:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So I didn't want anyone to talk to me.
31:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like,
31:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, he was like kind of flirty, like in a sweet way, you know, looking back on it now, he wanted to chat, he wanted to, like, say hi.
31:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was not, I was like stone cold, yep.
31:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I did my set and then afterwards, he came up to me and he was, he was like, hey, I'm David, I'm going to play, that sounds great, you know, sound great.
31:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh my God.
31:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And so then he played and I, he became my favorite.
31:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I, and I'd be kicking myself.
31:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
31:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Ever since, ever since.
31:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And he wrote on my, I got a poster and he wrote, keep strumming and then in parentheses, corny remark.
32:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, shmit.
32:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Funny.
32:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so funny.
32:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
32:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's my David Grace story.
32:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, but subsequently they came back and I went backstage and I said, hey, to them.
32:13
[SPEAKER_02]: That's great.
32:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's all fine.
32:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so funny.
32:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Our relationship is fine now.
32:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Such a Rachel McCartney story.
32:21
[SPEAKER_02]: You recorded two albums in Pittsburgh, throwing rocks in 96, which I found a copy of at WIP and I feel like I took it with me.
32:35
[SPEAKER_02]: it's in my possession somewhere okay and then I on the horizon yeah 2000 so we talked about this a little bit at the beginning of the interview but the cover of I on the horizon is a photo of you and a horse but it's up close so it's like half your face, half a horse is face yeah and so
32:58
[SPEAKER_02]: People have been saying Rachel that you are a bona fide horse girl.
33:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.
33:02
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you say about these allegations?
33:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they're absolutely true.
33:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've been a horse girl since I was small.
33:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I always wanted a horse.
33:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I got a horse.
33:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I've had several horses throughout my life at various times.
33:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't currently have a horse.
33:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I did have what we call our heart horse, and I had her for about six years, and she was my ride or die.
33:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And in that time, I was also kind of working with other people's horses, and then I worked with this mule, and we didn't have a great ride one time, and I fell off and broke my collarbone,
33:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So I stop doing other, you know, working with other people's horses and just, you know, the bones get brittle.
33:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just, I, I wasn't willing to take those risks anymore.
33:57
[SPEAKER_01]: But, but, yeah, and it's funny now to, since I don't have my, my barra anymore, that desire, my, my horsey, it kind of like, I'm kind of all set with it, you know?
34:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt so safe on this horse and I don't know that I would ever spend the time to develop a relationship like that.
34:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
34:28
[SPEAKER_01]: That is necessary in order to, you know, ride, say, that was the horse to end all horses.
34:34
[SPEAKER_01]: horse to end all horses.
34:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
34:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I have a cat right now that ends all cats for me.
34:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
34:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
34:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
34:41
[SPEAKER_02]: They can't ever be a better one.
34:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a funny.
34:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a funny thing, but I'm really at peace with that.
34:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm still the horse girl, you know, I still feel like.
34:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so this is a little bit of a setup here.
34:54
[SPEAKER_02]: You move back to Boston.
35:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I first saw you at Passyme.
35:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like it was the year 2000 for this like indie girl night.
35:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wow.
35:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was just like, floored.
35:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I got I and the horizon and then it became my new life of being like a lifelong Rachel apartment you've been using.
35:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
35:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So in that time, like, when you started busking with Peter Mulvie was your mentor,
35:27
[SPEAKER_02]: into the early 2000s and then up to a certain point.
35:31
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like such a fundamental time for that scene in Boston, the singer-songwriter focusing and a great place for it to happen.
35:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Because it had the infrastructure to support it on like a local level, like newspapers, or very supportive.
35:50
[SPEAKER_02]: There were many like Boston Globe, the weekly dig, the Boston Phoenix.
35:54
[SPEAKER_02]: the heralds, you know, any of those newspapers were enthusiastic about supporting the scene, there were great radio stations that were actually playing and supporting these artists, and big audiences that would come out.
36:07
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I mean, not like, you know, you couldn't sell at the orphan, but you could make a living and live in a town on that level.
36:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like,
36:18
[SPEAKER_02]: for a lot of people that were in that scene, there were many hopeful moments for you and for a lot of our friends back then who wanted to make it big or whatever that means.
36:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So what can you say about that time in your career?
36:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what your hopes were, what the coverage and the audience meant to your ambition and what it would feel like when your reality didn't match what you wanted to actually happen in your career.
36:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
36:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
36:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so I started the busking.
36:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, what I, what I loved about the busking is that it was very low pressure.
36:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
37:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I love to sing and play my guitar and people happen to come by.
37:04
[SPEAKER_01]: There would be crowds that would form and then
37:09
[SPEAKER_01]: they would enjoy, they would buy CDs, sign up of the mailing list, and then leave.
37:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was just this beautiful flow of people.
37:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And that kind of built so naturally into me, you know, headlining at Pasim or playing Tode was another one that I would
37:27
[SPEAKER_01]: do well at, but all from my mailing list and all from, you know, little blurbs and the newspapers, as you were saying, you know, it was a very brick and mortar time, you know, there was no.
37:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I think my space started to happen in 2000 or something.
37:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, but, and then that was kind of something to get on.
37:49
[SPEAKER_01]: But other than that, it was, it was emails, it was newspaper.
37:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Here at Kinko's Making Show, it was my goodness.
37:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly.
38:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had some support of folks, my friend, Nancy Dera.
38:04
[SPEAKER_01]: She was, she's been a marketer all her career life, and she,
38:10
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, would lend me some of her marketing pointers, Michelle concessions now of market monkeys and our Lord and Savior Michelle, she started market monkeys back with me and my mailing list really and her business degrees and this all kind of
38:32
[SPEAKER_01]: was the germinating point.
38:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I think she would agree, um, yes, she would agree.
38:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You agree, right, Michelle?
38:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
38:42
[SPEAKER_01]: This color.
38:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
38:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Call her on the line.
38:45
[SPEAKER_02]: In the vehicle, that would be so cool.
38:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
38:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I need a couple extra cables in order to get that in.
38:51
[SPEAKER_02]: To get that in.
38:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
38:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, then this became the came out time where it was like, yeah, you could go on tour and I would.
39:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I would do little tours and I'm telling you, I am.
39:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I realized at a certain point, I'm not cut out for the same anxiety, I'm not cut out for this ambiguity and this road life.
39:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I wanna home, I wanna have kids, I want security, you know, I'm a tourist, like through and through.
39:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I really was quite anxiety-ridden about the prospect of like,
39:36
[SPEAKER_01]: going for it as they say.
39:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just settled in my heart that, you know, that wasn't what I wanted to do.
39:48
[SPEAKER_01]: As much as I did want it.
39:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was, you know, I was conflicted for a while because I did want it.
39:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I did want to perform for larger and larger crowds.
39:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I really enjoyed that.
39:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
40:05
[SPEAKER_01]: It would take down the road.
40:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I just I didn't feel like I needed it also.
40:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there was there was I lacked a certain drive for it a lot of my You know success really has been kind of haphazard.
40:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean the you know the music is what it is and people like it for what it is But the success it has been You know the grassroots level and of course
40:33
[SPEAKER_01]: to be even more successful, you have to have that drive and you have to have that motivation.
40:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think I just, I couldn't come to terms with that.
40:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, life's interesting.
40:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, geez.
40:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
40:47
[SPEAKER_02]: OK, at a certain point, you decided, as we talked about career and music, it's not for you.
40:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And you wanted to start a family, build a career,
41:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, first you were in intensive care nurse, and then you became a labor and delivery nurse, which you are, yeah, now.
41:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
41:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, where has music been for you, like, during these 17 years away?
41:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
41:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
41:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, well, music has been something that I can kind of, um, kind of walk away from and do other stuff.
41:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And, um,
41:28
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of walk back to when I want to.
41:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't been very, there was a long period of time where I wasn't very, quote, disciplined about playing.
41:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I had little kids, you can imagine.
41:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my kids were 18 months apart.
41:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So once I had children in a career in nursing, I was busy.
41:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't feel a lot of creative drive.
41:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It's pretty much kids suck the life out of you
41:57
[SPEAKER_01]: any sort of internal life you might have.
41:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's, it's really, yeah, but now you're talking, but you know, I really did, I had this, this visualization when my kids were babies about music.
42:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, I said, I'm putting you on the back burner.
42:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just going to let you simmer there, or maybe I'll turn the heat off, and maybe sometimes I'll put it up to like a simmer.
42:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And I knew there would be a time when I came back to myself in that way.
42:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And all throughout that time, I was still writing songs.
42:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I would pick up the guitar.
42:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And every time I pick up the guitar even now, there's something that comes out.
42:40
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a song, there's a melody.
42:42
[SPEAKER_01]: There's it just depends on whether I'm in the place to follow that through.
42:50
[SPEAKER_01]: you know and create the song more and more I am when I sit down and I have something come I'm like okay this is what's happening now like I'm not going to go to the gym I'm going to write the song because it's happening now and I don't want to take it for granted I think there was a lot a lot of time in my early song writing where I took it for granted these songs would just come out I'll finish all done not much tweaking maybe they did need tweaking but I didn't do much too much
43:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to ask about working in music and in health care.
43:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Have you seen any parallels?
43:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
43:34
[SPEAKER_01]: So the parallel for me between working in healthcare and music is my approach.
43:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So I learned the technical end of being a nurse and that's very rigorous and very intense.
43:51
[SPEAKER_01]: However, I bring to my nursing a really heart-centered approach and a really love of humanity.
44:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I just love people, and so when somebody is in a compromised situation, I don't want them to feel like they're just a number, or that I'm going through the motions, I see it as my job to really connect to this human and find a way for them to feel cared for.
44:30
[SPEAKER_01]: energetically, as well as with whatever medications or or positions, I'm putting them in to either have their baby or get over a, you know, some kind of illness, just to feel that extra nurturing.
44:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think I'm a very nurturing person.
44:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So healthcare is really great, or has been really
44:52
[SPEAKER_01]: great for that aspect of my personality.
44:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think I've come to music with that approach too.
45:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not very intellectual about the music I don't.
45:11
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just my approach is in very intellectuals, very kind of heart-centered, but you can read music, which is
45:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, but I can be truly interesting.
45:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is interesting, you know, and I, I remember in the early days, a lot of people just really feeling that, you know, getting that connection and and that was always very.
45:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess validating or it made me feel like it was worthwhile.
45:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
45:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to talk about your kids, Felix and Hazel.
45:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I know that having a family was always important to you.
45:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember when you were talking about stepping away from music.
45:59
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of, like, felt the biological clock ticking.
46:04
[SPEAKER_02]: How his parenthood been different than what you expected it to be?
46:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's interesting.
46:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I think when you start out having kids, there's just such a romantic nobody can tell you.
46:24
[SPEAKER_01]: about the journey, they can tell you about the journey like I tell you one day Francis is going to be running around here and you're going to be inside cooking or doing something else.
46:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's hard for you to imagine that day.
46:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I wanted babies and I wanted babies.
46:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I had the babies.
46:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And the toddler years were rough.
46:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't
46:54
[SPEAKER_01]: they just all they yearn for those days.
46:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Brian was talking about how he those are his favorite years.
47:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, what?
47:01
[SPEAKER_02]: When they first start talking and they don't know what they're saying, cute, it's tough.
47:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think a lot of parents do split the way now of those early years.
47:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So the question was, how has my parenting evolved?
47:23
[SPEAKER_01]: How is it different than when you expect what do you expect that I think I've gone into it with a pretty open mind not really knowing what to expect and I think for some reason that's served my kids well and it's served me well my kids are now teenagers and it's this is my favorite
47:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I've said that about a lot of the stages, though, all the stages.
47:54
[SPEAKER_01]: This is my favorite.
47:57
[SPEAKER_01]: But now that I have more of a context, the teenagers, we talk about deep stuff.
48:03
[SPEAKER_01]: We talk about our feelings, they talk about their feelings.
48:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm their place that they go to, and,
48:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess it's different because I didn't realize that they were going to be teaching me so much about myself.
48:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you kind of think, like, you're the parent, you're the boss, and there is a lot of that instinctually, sometimes you want them to, like, you know, don't talk and do what I say.
48:35
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, as they get older and a little bit more resistant, there can be a power struggle.
48:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm really learning so much about myself and it's a really nice place to be because it takes the pressure off of me feeling like
48:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I've really got to mold these kids.
48:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I've really got to, and roots to wings.
49:00
[SPEAKER_01]: We give them roots, and then they can grow their wings.
49:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think as long as I keep remembering, I give them the basics, being a good human and caring and loving.
49:15
[SPEAKER_01]: They really do translate that into their own unique expression,
49:25
[SPEAKER_01]: incredibly unique.
49:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And to learn so much from it, your kids seem very grounded in their gender identities.
49:33
[SPEAKER_02]: You shared with me and you said it was okay to share.
49:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Felix is trans and Hazel is non-binary.
49:39
[SPEAKER_02]: How does their relationship to gender impact your own relationship to gender?
49:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I think in a way that I've always been very kind of non-binary myself, although we didn't have a language for that.
49:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've always been a girl, yep.
50:01
[SPEAKER_01]: But not necessarily a girly girl.
50:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been hanging with the bros for a long time.
50:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, the dead band.
50:07
[SPEAKER_01]: The dead band, being a musician, a lot of being around a lot of guys.
50:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think maybe my fluidity in that,
50:20
[SPEAKER_01]: has given them kind of a freedom to kind of go, hey, mom's not really a lady, I mean, I can be a lady, I can dress me up.
50:36
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that their freedom of expression has really astounded me at how strong they are.
50:51
[SPEAKER_01]: they're going to follow their internal guidance system and they're not concerned with fitting in.
51:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And I really love that.
51:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
51:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that so much.
51:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I still want to protect them, and I feel very protective at times.
51:15
[SPEAKER_01]: but I also trust there are so many good communities in place.
51:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think even in the tumult that is happening, I still believe in the goodness of people at large I really do.
51:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been the communities, the LGBTQ communities that are thriving.
51:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just know my kids are gonna find those.
51:43
[SPEAKER_01]: those places where they're comfortable and safe, yeah.
51:47
[SPEAKER_02]: During the pandemic you reconnected with your friend and longtime collaborator, Teddy Goldstein, one Teddy Goldstein, and started writing again, yeah, Teddy.
51:59
[SPEAKER_02]: What did that reconnection mean to you and your creativity?
52:04
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is a great time for my songwriting and Teddy songwriting.
52:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So during COVID, how this started was, Teddy's been a part of this Sunday song group, so he writes a song every Sunday, which I didn't understand.
52:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I tried it for a month or so, and I just, you know,
52:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got kids.
52:29
[SPEAKER_01]: No man.
52:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
52:30
[SPEAKER_01]: They're small.
52:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, the regularity of it was, I couldn't get it together.
52:40
[SPEAKER_01]: But that led us to throwing stuff back and forth on the phone, you know, have this idea.
52:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I really need a bridge.
52:49
[SPEAKER_01]: He's great for bridge ideas.
52:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I've given him some bridges for his songs.
52:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, I covered fully.
53:00
[SPEAKER_01]: which I found his, I found that years ago, and I was obsessed with that song, obsessed to make it mine.
53:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And, um, which I did, I always say about fully, um, this is a song of mine that Teddy wrote.
53:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, and, you know, Teddy's such a fan and an encourager
53:26
[SPEAKER_01]: and cheerleader of mine, just so steadfast about his support.
53:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And not afraid to really kind of take the reins on one of my songs and say, this needs to, like, let's really kind of take it in this direction, let's see what if we do this.
53:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot of freedom in that too because it opens my,
53:55
[SPEAKER_01]: if I'm having tunnel vision about something, it helps to expand that.
54:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, we've just had a great, great, I mean, years.
54:06
[SPEAKER_01]: How long ago was COVID?
54:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a long time ago.
54:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Five years ago.
54:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Five, six years ago.
54:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So six years ago.
54:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, six years ago.
54:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah.
54:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So we had been consistent about that.
54:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we just, at the end of four years, four, five years,
54:24
[SPEAKER_01]: had all these songs and I had always wanted to put them together in a recording.
54:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't think that there was going to be this big of a project which without my friend Jeff would not have been possible.
54:44
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you see the subjects you're writing about differently versus what you
54:54
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, like, shitty relationships.
54:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are all the, those are timeless.
55:00
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the same.
55:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm done with, I'm done with shitty relationships.
55:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Amen.
55:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Amen.
55:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I'm at a fine fellow and just things are going swimmingly.
55:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Your male partner.
55:06
[SPEAKER_01]: My male partner.
55:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
55:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Shout out.
55:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Shout out to my very masculine male partner.
55:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
55:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I'm going to say I
55:27
[SPEAKER_02]: What was the question again, so about how do you see the subjects you're writing about differently now that you are in this new phase of your music life?
55:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything's so much more esoteric for me.
55:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I live in an esoteric bubble, I feel like.
55:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I just see,
55:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I see through a lot of circumstances.
56:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I see through a lot of walls that people have.
56:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of feel feelings of other people, a lot of empathy.
56:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
56:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Empathy.
56:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
56:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a list for that.
56:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
56:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of just go through life very empathically and if something is triggering
56:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to figure it out and I think sometimes songwriting helps me to figure it out and to put a spin on it that is going to be useful for me and possibly others because God dammit life is too short to be disregulated with all the triggers that that happened on any given day.
56:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So your new album, Taming Dragons is your first full-length release in 17 years, produced by the wonderful Zachary Hickman who got the band together, including Rose Paul and Zani.
57:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Bestie on vocals.
57:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Rose was telling me when she went to the recording sessions, she just was so happy for you because you just seem to be.
57:16
[SPEAKER_02]: So joyful with everybody when you were recording the record.
57:20
[SPEAKER_02]: So can you talk about what that joy felt like or how it felt like to be in the studio with everyone making this record?
57:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
57:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, first of all, I felt just such gratitude.
57:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I...
57:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't believe I was in this situation.
57:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I was pinching myself.
57:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I had, because I had envisioned something of a recording, something of a record.
57:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know, I thought maybe it would be in my friends basement or, you know, it was a studio down the road from me, which is a fine studio, but to have it be with Zach and his a team and Rose,
58:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just giddy and trying to act as professional and as I could, you know, and I was very focused.
58:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I was joyful, but I was focused when I went in there because we had three days to bust out the tracks, all the basic stuff, and boy, I was on a mission.
58:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So by the time Rose came in to do vocals, all that was done, and I was just, I was a lot more.
58:38
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of in the exuberant space of oh that's done yeah and it went well and and I was so excited for her input but yeah that was that was amazing yeah and I'm glad that Rose was able to be a part of that I can't can't hear another voice on some of those harmonies yeah it was perfect yeah yeah
59:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, so you played some album release shows for Taming Dragons and, um, have had, I saw the pastime show so great.
59:12
[SPEAKER_02]: What's it been like to be back on stage with these new songs and these new collaborators?
59:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so being on the stage with the band that recorded the album was, again, surreal, and I was quite nervous to be at Passeme again.
59:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what it is about Passeme, it just those halls are the rich, you know, and there's always a sense of rising to that bar.
59:49
[SPEAKER_01]: exhilarating um it was very soothing in a way as well um I felt very happy to get the songs out to a lot of people that I didn't know I didn't see a lot of
1:00:07
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, same faces, although there were a handful of fans that came up and had me sign one of my older CDs.
1:00:14
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I remembered them from coming to shows 20 years ago.
1:00:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Any throwing rocks?
1:00:20
[SPEAKER_02]: No, there was no, no throwing rocks, no ray.
1:00:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't sign any of those.
1:00:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but yeah, it's been, it's been great and I'm working with Michelle still at getting, you know, other gigs and who knows how, um,
1:00:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, I don't want to say motivated.
1:00:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm motivated, but you know, ambitious.
1:00:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll get.
1:00:48
[SPEAKER_01]: But um, yeah.
1:00:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It does kind of feed on itself.
1:00:50
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you have a nice gig and it can be infectious.
1:00:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like at the stage of my life.
1:00:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got a room for hobbies.
1:00:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
1:00:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you feel like that?
1:01:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you say infectious, like, do you feel like it's like a dangerous that you could like sort of like,
1:01:08
[SPEAKER_02]: spiral back into anxiety about things.
1:01:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, because I'm so set and firm about what I need to be grounded and happy.
1:01:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's one thing about being older and
1:01:26
[SPEAKER_01]: there are there are things that are just non-negotiable, you know, yeah, it's great to hear.
1:01:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, I feel that.
1:01:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I'll go on tour.
1:01:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll do, you know, I'll do stuff for three weeks at a time, you know, I'm not going to make it my life.
1:01:44
[SPEAKER_01]: There's other things that I want to do.
1:01:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't have to, I mean, I'm in bed at 9 o'clock and up at 5, most days.
1:01:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know to shift that into musicians' hours would be challenging.
1:02:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we had a great interview with Mark Eureli and Joe Henry and they are also early risers and like,
1:02:13
[SPEAKER_02]: if I wake up early and something is happening like within our world, I know I can text Mark.
1:02:19
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a little text right back.
1:02:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
1:02:22
[SPEAKER_02]: If it's like pre-don.
1:02:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:02:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:02:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
1:02:28
[SPEAKER_02]: So I send Mark early morning.
1:02:32
[SPEAKER_02]: folk music gossip questions and also pictures of bugs ask him what is this bug because he's a bug scientist Wow, yeah, is that does he is he really a bug scientist?
1:02:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, like he does science and tomology.
1:02:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's what he went to school for
1:02:48
[SPEAKER_01]: for wow.
1:02:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:02:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So now you can text Mark pictures of bugs.
1:02:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:02:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:02:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I can and he won't he won't be disturbed at that early.
1:02:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
1:02:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:02:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:03:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's, you know, that's great.
1:03:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And there can be nights that you stay up late as a musician, you know.
1:03:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So I believe that I'll be able to have that capacity, but just in general.
1:03:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I like, I like my home and yeah.
1:03:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:03:15
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
1:03:15
[SPEAKER_02]: One more question
1:03:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you know, Tori Amos, my other favorite?
1:03:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, also released a Dragon Forward album this year?
1:03:28
[SPEAKER_01]: in times of dragons I did not know that crazy what can we talk about the title of taming dragons yes please and what it means to me yes speaking of tory amos and I just think dragons are the you know most mythical and kind of esoteric symbols and for me that
1:03:54
[SPEAKER_01]: that imagery of taming dragons, right?
1:03:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It really kind of coming of age, coming to where no my non-negotiables, coming to know myself in a way that learning how to regulate my nervous system.
1:04:13
[SPEAKER_01]: These are all things that people are talking about now, right?
1:04:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're all kind of talking about taming our dragons.
1:04:23
[SPEAKER_01]: regulating our nervous systems and, you know, meditation and, and everything springs forth from there, what we bring to our societies, right?
1:04:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It all starts with us, so that's where the imagery and the intention for the title of Taming Dragons came from.
1:04:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
1:04:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love the Tories?
1:04:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:04:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's, I have not, I've not, like, liked any of her albums since, like,
1:04:52
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, the early 2000s.
1:04:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
1:04:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And the fact that you both released Dragon Albums this year and I went and I saw her perform last week and I saw your show like just amazing.
1:05:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Great 2000 2002 again.
1:05:08
[SPEAKER_02]: So good.
1:05:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you liked her her.
1:05:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you were feeling good at it.
1:05:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Nice.
1:05:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Nice.
1:05:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.
1:05:15
[SPEAKER_02]: It's great.
1:05:16
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a great album.
1:05:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Great.
1:05:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
1:05:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to play him simultaneously to see if I can.
1:05:22
[SPEAKER_02]: If anything syncs up or I get any secret messages.
1:05:25
[UNKNOWN]: All right.
1:05:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be surprised.
1:05:28
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
1:05:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's the lightning round.
1:05:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Ooh.
1:05:31
[SPEAKER_02]: What is one song you wish you had written?
1:05:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Ah, one song, I wish I had written um, okay, there's a new song by Sophia Bianco and it's called Punch.
1:05:53
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it and it needs to be famous and it needs to be on the charts.
1:05:59
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, I don't know it.
1:06:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna check it out.
1:06:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, check it out.
1:06:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, well,
1:06:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Who do you want to play you in the movie of your life?
1:06:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Who do I want to play me in the movie of my life?
1:06:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I want...
1:06:17
[SPEAKER_01]: um Scarlett Johansson.
1:06:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Great.
1:06:21
[SPEAKER_02]: That would be great.
1:06:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Perfect.
1:06:23
[SPEAKER_02]: What is your ideal midnight snack?
1:06:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Not that you're ever up in midnight.
1:06:29
[SPEAKER_01]: My ideal midnight snack is chocolate covered almonds with pretzels and walnuts.
1:06:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Nice.
1:06:36
[SPEAKER_02]: What are you listening to in the car?
1:06:38
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is a two-part question.
1:06:40
[SPEAKER_02]: What are you listening to in the car on a long drive?
1:06:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And what are you listening to the
1:06:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm listening to Barack Abraqa, right now they're a Ukrainian group.
1:06:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I just saw them in Portsmouth.
1:06:57
[SPEAKER_01]: and I became a huge fan.
1:06:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, listen to them on the way up here.
1:07:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's a long drive in the car.
1:07:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:07:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in short drives, I either usually don't listen to anything.
1:07:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I take that as a quiet time, but a lot of times I'll listen to a podcast of,
1:07:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, telepathy tapes.
1:07:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you talking about music though?
1:07:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I should keep it to me.
1:07:21
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, whatever you want is telepathy tapes is a podcast that I've been listening to.
1:07:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you aware of that?
1:07:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
1:07:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
1:07:30
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right up my alley.
1:07:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:07:33
[SPEAKER_01]: That kind of stuff.
1:07:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
1:07:35
[SPEAKER_01]: What is your biggest pet peeve?
1:07:38
[SPEAKER_01]: My biggest pet peeve is when when people talk, negative self-talk.
1:07:46
[SPEAKER_01]: negative self-talk.
1:07:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think.
1:07:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And we all do it.
1:07:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I do it.
1:07:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:07:53
[SPEAKER_01]: But when somebody's doing it out loud in front of me, it feels really awkward.
1:07:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to just hold your hand up and be like, you're really annoying.
1:08:01
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
1:08:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to love them.
1:08:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to love them into self-love.
1:08:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:08:08
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.
1:08:10
[SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of a weird pet peeve.
1:08:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, when people don't not emerge,
1:08:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's more.
1:08:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what you're looking for.
1:08:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I like the other one too.
1:08:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
1:08:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the other one is good.
1:08:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:08:22
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
1:08:22
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the last one.
1:08:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Where's the most beautiful place in the world?
1:08:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the most beautiful place in the world is Stonehouse Pond in Berington, New Hampshire.
1:08:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been going there and paddle boarding and swimming for the past couple of months.
1:08:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a Spring-Fed Pond.
1:08:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
1:08:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Slash-Cory.
1:08:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's magical.
1:08:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
1:08:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go.
1:08:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go.
1:08:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:08:54
[SPEAKER_01]: This has been awesome Rachel, thank you so much.
1:08:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Cindy.
1:08:57
[SPEAKER_01]: This has been great.
1:09:05
[SPEAKER_02]: This episode of Basic Folk was produced by CJ Nungesser, Dietrich Strauss composes our music.
1:09:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Basic Folk is a production of the Bluegrass situation.
1:09:13
[SPEAKER_02]: You can find all of our episodes there.
1:09:15
[SPEAKER_02]: You can find us on folkallie.com or folkallie's mobile app.
1:09:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Search for Basic Folk on the Series XM app.
1:09:21
[SPEAKER_02]: You can check out Basic Folk.com or listen wherever you get your shows.
1:09:26
[SPEAKER_02]: If you enjoyed this episode, maybe you should share it with a friend.
1:09:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Perhaps that friend that you went to college with, that you have many memories of seeing racional Cartoon concerts with and then going back to her apartment in Central Square,
1:09:41
[SPEAKER_02]: and spending the night on her part as a rock futon where you had to train yourself to lay on your back, otherwise you would be sleeping in the shape of a U.
1:09:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Send it to that friend.
1:09:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, thanks for listening all the way to the end.
1:09:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll talk to you next time.