Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 162. Canceled In The IFB - Joe Vanella (Ninety-nine for one Podcast)

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162. Canceled In The IFB - Joe Vanella (Ninety-nine for one Podcast) · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:10
I found my freedom in you. I found a toy I can't lose, and
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thank God it's true. You wrapped your arms around me
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and heaven broke through. From the moment she found me.
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I found. Welcome to the Four Freedom
0:34
Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the
0:37
freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with
0:40
everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James
0:44
Seyfried and Brett Marks. Welcome back to the Four Freedom
0:51
podcast. It is a wonderful day to serve
0:53
the Lord and we are so excited about our episode today.
0:57
Want to just come and share some things with you today, Brett,
1:01
continue to pray for him. He's still having some health
1:04
issues and still working through some things.
1:07
Got some doctor's appointments. He will be on our episode today.
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But I just want to intro that by just continuing to pray for him,
1:14
continuing to lift him up and excited to get back into our
1:18
rather rhythm of things. It's hard to believe that we're
1:20
already halfway through this season, the first part of the
1:24
year, and I got some great content lined up, some great
1:27
interviews lined up for the remainder of this season.
1:31
Thank you for tuning in. I want to remind you to go check
1:35
out our cigar line at 4 Freedom, thepodcast.com.
1:39
You can also see that at 1689 cigars.com, the Four Freedom
1:44
Collection that is there and I got some great lines of things
1:47
there for you and excited about what the Lord's going to be
1:50
doing through that. Also, we have our Israel trip
1:55
that we have lined up that's going to be in the end of
1:58
January, February that we are excited about going back to the
2:01
Holy Lands. If that's something that you're
2:03
interested in, please reach out to us.
2:04
You can also find those details out on our website and we are
2:08
very excited about that and getting that line back up.
2:11
And then last but not least, we will be in Dallas, TX in June
2:17
for the convention. If you were in that area or
2:20
would like to hang out, meet up or if you're going to be coming
2:22
to the convention, let us know. I'm actually going to be there
2:25
the entire week before that to spend some time with my sister
2:28
who lives in McKinney. So we're going to be around
2:31
Brett's coming down. We're going to have some some
2:33
hangout times and sometimes to get together with you if it's
2:37
something that you're around that area or would like to come
2:39
and meet up with us. But please let us, let us know.
2:42
We would love to hang out and meet with you, get lunch, hang
2:44
out. And man, we're just so excited
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about what Lord's doing and what we're going to be a part of
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today. We've got a great interview
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lined up. Name is Joe Vanilla, and we're
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excited about having him on the podcast today.
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And so without further ado, we're going to jump in to our
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series today of Joe's story and how he experienced some
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cancellation in the IFB. We hope you enjoy today's
3:10
episode. We cannot truly worship.
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God while we stay. Silent on injustice in all kinds
3:27
of areas. And I know as a white pastor I
3:29
have blind spots, so I am part of the problem.
3:36
James. Paul elected to unhitch the
3:38
Christian faith. From their Jewish.
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Scriptures and my friends, we must as well.
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White people fear black men. That's not.
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Fair, but it's true. Jesus repents of his racism and
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extends healing to this woman's daughter.
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I love this story because it's a reminder that Jesus is human.
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He had prejudices and bias and when confronted with it, he was
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willing to do his work. I believe in the non binary God
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whose pronouns are plural. I believe in Jesus Christ, their
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child, who wore a fabulous tunic and had two dads and saw
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everyone as a sibling child of God.
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I believe in the rainbow spirit who shatters our image of 1
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white light and refracts it into a rainbow of gorgeous diversity.
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I believe in the Church of everyday Saints, as numerous,
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creative and resilient as patches on the 8th quilt, whose
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feet are grounded in mud and whose eyes gaze at the stars in
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wonder. I believe in the calling to each
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of us that love is love is love. So beloved, let us love.
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I believe glorious God help my unbelief.
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Amen. This woke self loathing.
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And we will never let the woke left take it away.
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It's because they're putting woke ideology.
5:29
To a woke. Mob that can't even tell you
5:31
what a woman is. In this season of the Four
5:41
Freedom Podcast, we want to bring to you some enlightening
5:44
topics that deal with the wokeness of the church.
5:47
We want to bring to light some issues that are often
5:51
overlooked, and we hope that it will be a blessing to you in
5:54
your listening. Experience everybody, OK?
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Welcome back to the Four Freedom Podcast.
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What a great time it is to be here with you.
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We have this wonderful interview lined up today with Joe Vanilla
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and we are excited to have him with us and excited to hear his
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story. He has shared some things with
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us and reached out to us about maybe having an opportunity to
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share his story. So Joe, I want to introduce you
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to our audience and sort of give us your jerk background.
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He also runs a podcast called 99 for One.
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Maybe talk about that for a little bit and then we'll jump
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into what we have going on today.
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Yeah, yeah. Thanks for having me, James and
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Brett, like as he said, my name is Joe.
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I'm a vocational pastor at a little church in West Virginia,
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and I want to talk about that a little bit, but I want to open
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with this thought before we get into the church history.
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Just a couple things to name. This is a long story of God's
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grace despite my failures and the failures of other people.
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When I found the Four Freedom podcast, it really helped me to
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escape legalism along with the Recovering Fundamentalist
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podcast and several others. And I just want to make sure
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that I'm keeping the First things first.
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I've been talking to James for a few months now.
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I prayed for a long time before I ever approached him about the
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interview. And after we started talking
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about it, I sat down with the elders and the other men of my
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church and I just kind of let them poke holes in the idea to
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make sure that my motives were were pure.
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And after some talking, there weren't really many holes spoke
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and they agreed that it was a good idea.
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So most of this story, it revolves around events in a
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single IFB church that anybody who knows me knows what's going
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on. I don't want people to perceive
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my sharing this story to be a result of any sort of distaste,
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because it's not. In fact, I will go so far as to
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say that the church that most of this story revolves around has
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an awesome pastor. I believe God's going to do a
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great work there. When he came in, I went and
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helped him learn how to run the audio video system that I
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designed while I was there. We have a wonderful relationship
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and he was even kind enough to donate some critical equipment
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to our music group, Love This Life.
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Love This Life is the other ministry that I don't think I
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ever mentioned to James or Brett.
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It's a para church ministry, gospel centered music ministry.
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We travel around to different churches and it was founded in
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the midst of the chaos and confusion that we're going to
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talk about today. But I'll explain that founding
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if we get to it. But all that, all that led
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around to the creation of the 99 for One podcast.
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And we're just finishing up final touches as we're recording
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this on our first real episode and hopefully it'll be published
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by the time this goes live. That's Long story short, that
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podcast is just primarily going to be Bible study and looking at
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the Bible, allowing it to speak for itself, and sharing some of
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the things we've learned along the way about how legalism and
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how hyper fundamentalism, if you will, can skew our
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interpretation of scripture and just kind of back it up and let
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God speak for himself. But if anybody listening has
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ever listened to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, which is a
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podcast hosted by Mike Cosper and Christianity Today, it tells
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the story about how God did incredible things in a community
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despite the awful things that occurred within the campuses of
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the church. This story that I'm going to
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share today is not a whole lot different, to be honest.
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The context is different, but the events are pretty similar.
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There's a period of about two years when there's a vacuum of
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power and really no leader to fit fit to shepherd the flock,
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including myself. And the Bible says in Proverbs
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2918, where there is no vision, the people perish.
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And I suspect that a lot of this is a result of that principle in
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action. We're going to see hurt people
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hurting people. I'm not trying to diminish
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sinfulness by any means, but I'm trying to distinguish the fact
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that we shouldn't be surprised that this happens.
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That's why I'm sharing this today.
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That's why James and Brett have this awesome ministry.
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It's still happening. People are still being heard in
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churches across the IFB and beyond it, and they still need
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healing. And just for clarity, I do not
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intend to defame anyone or any church for the purpose of
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reducing their value. Instead, I hope to help other
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realize others realize that that's what legalism does,
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especially when it comes to the notion of cancellation.
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Every one of us are born in the image of God and we hold this
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value. God so loved the world, God so
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loved them that he sent his only begotten Son, that whosoever
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believes on him should not perish, but have everlasting
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life. That's God's value on me, and
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that's God's value on James and Brad and all the people who are
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listening, all the people who have received hurt and all the
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people who created hurt. And maybe I'm leaving with the
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punchline, but I think it's right.
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The hardest thing about leaving legalism behind, the hardest
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thing about being cancelled has been remembering how much God
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loves those people who hurt me. And the second hardest thing has
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been realizing that God is calling me to love them just as
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much. So I just wanted to kind of name
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that and throw a couple of reservations in there because I
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don't want anybody to think that I'm out to hurt anybody.
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And you can trim that however you need to to make it work.
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So as it means of introduction, I'm Joe, an associate pastor at
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New Discovery Baptist Church in Sutton, WV.
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I have two daughters and a wonderful wife who homeschools
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her kids, and she helps lead a fledgling nursery ministry that
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we just launched at our church as a result of getting some new
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babies. I told you about the music
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ministry we sing in. My friends Elijah and Maddie and
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I sing in churches wherever God allows us.
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We all just try to live a really simple life.
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And it sort of sounds like the IFB Dream Team family.
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And for a season, it really was. I'm going to try and take
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hopefully no more than 10 minutes to distill five years
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worth of experiences. And some of the questions that
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we're going to talk about, we'll fill in a little bit of gaps.
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So for several years I was a volunteer Bible teaching teacher
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at the biggest IFB church in a small West Virginia county.
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We we had about 150 adults on a typical Sunday morning and
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sometimes as many as 100 on a Sunday night.
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We ran for vans all around the county, had a huge kids
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ministry, and there was always people out on visitation on
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Saturday. The church really was healthy
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for the first few years, not just in the visible aspects, but
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actually healthy. We had excellent leadership, we
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had a great vision. We're definitely IFB, but we
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weren't really fundies, if that makes any sense.
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People were loved, treated like humans, discipled, encouraged to
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serve, to give, and to grow in their face.
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So after a couple, after a couple of years living in this
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Baptist paradise, our pastor stepped away into God's next
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ministry for him and his family. I truly believe this was God LED
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decision. And for the record, I'm still
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friends with this man and his family today.
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He spent months getting us ready for, for his absence,
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unbeknownst to us. But looking back, I could see
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that he spent months training up all the men in the church to
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lead and he left on excellent terms.
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And what happened after that, it's, it's hard to wrap my head
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around. It's hard to imagine, but I
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don't really have to imagine because I lived through it.
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We formed a public committee, which is a pretty normal thing,
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that they came up with a list about 40 or 50 doctrinal and
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positional questions that were sent to any candidate whose
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resume was acceptable. Any single wrong answer to a
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question led to the disqualification of the
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candidate. There was a strict set of rules
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established for how interviews were conducted, and should the
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candidate master the written examination and jump through all
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the hoops well enough. They got an opportunity to teach
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and preach in front of the church, and then they went
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through the process of possibly electing, selecting.
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In the moment, it seemed perfect.
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It was methodical, it was fair, and it was deliberate.
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But in retrospect, we we sucked the Holy Spirit right out of it.
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It couldn't have been more worldly.
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So we ended up with two candidates, one from Howles
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Anderson and one from a copycat school that had imploded early,
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had imploded years earlier, I don't remember what it was
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called, and one got voted in. It was a mess that turned into a
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popularity contest. But in all this confusion, we
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missed one critical thing. Both of our candidates were
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biblically disqualified. We got so wrapped up in finding
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someone who believed exactly what we believed, we failed to
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effectively consider what God believed about a pastoral
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candidate. We picked up on one earlier than
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the other, but the other we picked up on about six months
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after we had selected him as pastor.
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So I don't want to get into the other candidate, but the one
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that was selected, he was bib bib.
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Try that again. The candidate that was
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eventually selected, as I said, was also biblically
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disqualified. But I totally missed it.
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He was not able to rule his rule his house.
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Well, in fact, he didn't rule his house at all.
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Later it would be revealed that his wife made all the critical
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decisions in both their home and in their ministry.
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Unironically, the next church that they went to would draw the
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same conclusion after about the same amount of time.
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The only reason that I'm sharing this is because it's really
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relevant to topics that we're going to unpack later, and it's
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a great example of how legalism takes the focus off of God and
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puts it on to men. We had created so many
14:53
qualifying measurements for our man of God that we weren't
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sufficiently focused on God's qualifying measurements for his
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man of God. So this pastor was there for
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about a year. Things got really crazy, and
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eventually they were forced out against their will.
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We'll explain some of that in a bit, but essentially they tried
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to cancel the dissidents, then they tried to cancel the church
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leaders, then they tried to cancel the church constitution
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and what could only be described as an attempt at a coup.
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As for me, while all while is experiencing all this, I've
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really been struggling with the whole notion of what church
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should be. And I really should unpack that
15:31
a little bit. I love my church.
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I love the structure, the rules, the hoops that I had to jump
15:35
through the boxes that I had to check.
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I needed that structure in that time of my life.
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But I had the I had visited my grandma's home church, which
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was, which was an SBC church. Now, if you're if you're
15:45
familiar with the IFB, visiting other churches is highly
15:49
discouraged. But visiting a Southern Baptist
15:51
church was practically apostasy. So before I went, I sought
15:54
counsel from some of the older men in the church, and I
15:57
explained to them that I knew that it was wrong to visit a
15:59
church that was another denomination, but I really
16:01
wanted to spend some time with my grandmother and that I
16:04
thought it was a great way to do it.
16:05
So they acknowledged the grave dangers of visiting a church
16:08
that was part of an association, and they told me to be very wary
16:11
of their doctrine, which was sure to be entirely liberal.
16:14
So I went with the armor of God in my King James Bible in hand,
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and sat in for Sunday school. When they started reading
16:19
scripture, I didn't know what to think.
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I didn't initially know what translation they were using, but
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it surely wasn't the right one. So at one point the teacher, he
16:27
asked me to read some scripture and the strangest thing
16:29
happened. In that moment I suddenly became
16:32
concerned about having a King James Bible instead of whatever
16:34
they were using. I asked if it was OK that I read
16:37
out of the King James, to which he responded of course King
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James is a great translation so I did it and nobody gave me any
16:44
any weird looks. I talked to the lead pastor
16:47
after the service asking why they used the Christian Standard
16:49
Bible instead of the King James and this is what he told me.
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He said he wanted the congregation to be able to
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understand their Bibles and that as good as the King James was as
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a translation, it was so challenging to understand that
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most people really couldn't handle that.
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So that was I walked in expecting a den of Vipers, but
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what I found was a bunch of people who love Jesus more
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openly than anything I've ever experienced in a corporate
17:11
worship service. It really felt like the Spirit
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of God was flowing over me like a waterfall, that I was standing
17:16
at the bottom of the whole experience that shattered a
17:19
paradigm that had been placed upon me, the paradigm that we in
17:22
the IFB were the only ones who were doing church.
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Ryan, I couldn't rationalize any longer.
17:29
I couldn't. I could no longer rationalize
17:31
that idea because God was so clearly working in the lives of
17:34
these people. Even though they wore street
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clothing to church, they sang contemporary songs, and they
17:39
read from modern translations. Now, that last one was the
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hardest to unlearn. So many people had given me so
17:44
many arguments for the King James that I had accepted
17:47
accepted those arguments as gospel.
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The King James had always been God's word in my mind, and
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nothing else was sufficient. So how could God be speaking so
17:56
loudly to me through these people?
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All that started a journey that I never thought I'd take, and it
18:02
led me to a place I never thought I'd land.
18:04
A good friend of mine who's now a pastor to Southern Baptist
18:07
Church in another state, he helped me wrap my head around
18:09
this paradigm shift from King James only ISM.
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He was raised up and called to preach from my old IFB church,
18:15
but God had let him out of out of legalism.
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When he came in to visit, he was asked to speak at a church, none
18:21
of us knowing that he'd moved on to the ESV as his prepared
18:24
translation. When he spoke, I picked up on
18:26
two things. First, I saw how much God had
18:28
groaning. He spoke with authority and
18:30
maturity and wisdom that he just didn't have before.
18:33
The second thing, it was clear that he was struggling to read
18:36
the early modern English of the KJV, so that was a juxtaposition
18:40
that stuck out like a sore thumb to me and I dug in.
18:42
They streamed their services, so I watched them online stuff,
18:45
only to learn that they weren't using the King James at his
18:47
church. So I asked him and instead of
18:50
him telling me what he thought, he pointed me towards James,
18:53
James White's book, The King James Only Controversy.
18:56
He told me that I had to answer the question for myself that I
18:58
had only recently begun to ask. Why do we believe the King James
19:01
Bible is the only true English Bible?
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He didn't give me his position. He didn't tell me what to think.
19:06
He simply told me to look at the facts and pray for God's wisdom.
19:11
So that's what I did. I dug into James White's book.
19:13
I also read Doctor Oolette's book, A More Sure word, as
19:17
recommended by me by recommended to me by an older man of my
19:20
church. This man told me he said read,
19:23
read Doctor Oolette's book. It'll answer all your questions.
19:26
Instead, the Penner of the book, which I read, was very angry and
19:29
in many places errant, led me to ask even more questions.
19:34
So the same person who recommended that book told me
19:36
that using modern translations was a guaranteed path into
19:39
doctrinal disaster and subsequently shared a story
19:41
about a relative who was in a church that believes something
19:43
that was definitely not a not a good solid doctrine.
19:46
The trouble was that, excuse me, the trouble was that I already
19:50
heard the story and I knew that his relative was in the King
19:53
James Only church. When I raised that fact, he
19:56
closed the door on the conversation and refused to open
19:58
the topic again. The only person on the KGV side
20:03
who would take up a serious question, a serious
20:05
conversation, was the previous pastor that I mentioned in the
20:08
beginning. He heard my questions, he
20:10
answered them thoughtfully, and we finished the conversations
20:13
agreeing to disagree. And like I said, we're still
20:15
friends today. So in the end, I concluded that
20:18
it was unreasonable to think that all the other translations
20:20
of the Bible were illegitimate, but I was still stuck serving in
20:24
a King James only church. I didn't know what to do, so I
20:26
reached out again to my friend who'd recommended Doctor White's
20:29
book in the 1st place, and his response was that was probably
20:32
was not going to change the minds of the people in my
20:34
church, so I'd be well off not to advertise my position.
20:41
Sorry if asked answer honestly that but don't come out and
20:45
announce it. That's what he said, and so
20:47
that's what I did for as long as I could, but the further I dug,
20:50
the more difficult it became. Along the way I discovered the
20:53
forward of the King James from the translators, which wasn't in
20:56
any KJV Bible that I'd ever seen.
20:59
This was probably Step 2 towards my cancellation, the first being
21:02
asking questions at all. So I shared the preface on
21:05
social media and I was pulled to the side by the same leader
21:07
previously mentioned and told that I was in danger of church
21:10
discipline because publicly, because I was publicly going
21:13
against what the church believed for sharing the preface of the
21:16
very Bible they claimed was God's perfect word.
21:19
The next big discovery that I made was was Tony Hudson's
21:22
sermon clip on reprobates along with Peter Ruckman and some of
21:25
the other people who'd catalyzed the IFB over the past half a
21:27
century. And I was offended enough that I
21:29
wanted to clear the air with people in my circle that the
21:31
hateful lies in those sermons were not what our church or what
21:34
God represented. As a result, I was admonished
21:38
again for illuminating something.
21:39
That quote risked bringing a negative view on the church.
21:42
UN quote. But nobody could validate the
21:46
hateful messages that were being preached out of these churches.
21:50
So this course, it repeated itself in one fast or another
21:53
for quite some time. We were.
21:54
My family, my girls, my wife were starving spiritually.
21:59
I was drowning in frustration and confusion, and I didn't
22:01
understand how our church had lost what I had.
22:04
We were no longer a place where people were loved, treated like
22:07
humans, discipled and encouraged to serve, give and grow in their
22:10
face. So after a lot of consideration
22:13
and prayer, I shared a devotion with the church entitled We do
22:15
not serve a quid pro quo God. And I walked out the door for
22:19
the last time as a member of that religious institution.
22:22
That's the 30,000 foot view. We're going to dip in and out of
22:24
that story in different places as the conversation continues.
22:28
But we prayed and cried and cried and prayed about what to
22:30
do. We knew we had to stay in church
22:31
where we're going to starve spiritually.
22:33
So we visited some local churches.
22:35
We found no peace about any church that we visited except
22:38
for one that was around 50 miles away.
22:41
None of none of it made sense. But if I'm being honest, God had
22:44
been dealing with me about that church since my first visitor
22:46
years earlier when I was asked to read out of my King James
22:49
Bible in this non King James church.
22:51
So my wife and I resolved the land there until God showed us
22:54
something otherwise. It was inconvenient in a number
22:56
of ways, first and foremost that it was an hour drive one way,
22:59
but it really seemed like the only thing that God was pointing
23:01
us to. It was there at New Discovery
23:04
Baptist Church that I finally quit wrestling with calling the
23:07
pastoral ministry. And it was there that I realized
23:09
that God was calling me to be the change that I hope to see in
23:11
the world to someday plan a conservative biblical church
23:15
that preaches the truth in love plus nothing and minus nothing.
23:18
And that's my story of how I got into and out of legalism.
23:23
And I know James and Brett, you both have some questions that
23:25
you want to talk about regarding cancellation.
23:29
And that's the framework in which all these answers are
23:31
going to fit. So I'll turn it back over to
23:33
you. That's great.
23:34
Before Brett asked his first question, I think it's
23:37
interesting you mentioned about the King James.
23:39
And last, this past week I had a great conversation with the
23:43
former teenager of mine who's in ministry, and we were talking
23:47
about versions and what he was using and what I was using.
23:50
And he said, you know, he said, I was on a cruise the other day
23:53
with a couple of pastors and he's a young guy, He's in
23:55
college. And they did like a young
23:58
married couples tour cruise thing.
24:01
And he said, I asked them, why do you preach out of the King
24:05
James when you have to spend so much of your time explaining and
24:11
defining these words? And he said, well, it's very
24:14
simple. He said I use it because it adds
24:17
10 to 15 minutes to my message and I don't have to study as
24:20
much. And I.
24:22
Thought I've heard it before but when he said it again, now that
24:26
I'm preaching every week, man, how much more can I do with 10
24:30
to 15 more minutes? And I am doing with 10 to 15
24:33
more minutes of not just having to define the words but he
24:35
literally said I just love being able to define those words
24:39
because it adds this extra time, this less time I have to study
24:42
and prepare for my message. And then I was like, dude, I
24:46
can't believe this guy just admitted that, but he did.
24:49
So yeah, that's one of the things that really helped me
24:51
really start challenging my beliefs because I was, I was
24:54
preaching in children's church and I spent most of my time just
24:57
just getting them up to modern English.
24:59
You know, we're talking about, you know, 5 to 10 year olds.
25:03
And I was my, my sermons were English lessons.
25:05
And I'm like, this isn't right. Yeah, Brett, go ahead.
25:08
What's what's your thoughts man? Well, you were right about, you
25:11
know, going to SP church, SPC church is a no no.
25:16
When you go to an IFB church, that's definitely we would go to
25:19
the IFB church. Like for us it was 50 miles away
25:24
before we go to a local SPC church for that reason.
25:27
And I think one of the hardest things you have to do, because
25:30
I've been in your shoes where you're in IFB church and the, or
25:38
any, any legalistic church and the scales start to fall off of
25:44
your eyes, but you're stuck there.
25:46
And so there's a part of you that has to toe the line a
25:50
little bit to stave off this, this incoming onslaught of, of
25:56
cancellation, you know, is coming because, you know, if you
26:01
express your thoughts too soon or, or you know, you're wise to,
26:05
you know, with with caution approach that because you know,
26:08
you have to toe the line a certain bit.
26:12
Now I will say that one thing you mentioned is you mentioned
26:15
the Mars Hill podcast and that all about that Mark Driscoll
26:19
thing. And one of the things that that
26:22
I took away from that podcast that you mentioned was he had
26:26
this while he was there, he had this scorched earth policy where
26:31
if you went against him or if you quit, you had to sign non
26:35
disclosures, you had to sign non competes.
26:37
You couldn't start a church within, you know, within the
26:42
town. And he would have people in the
26:45
church shun you and not talk to you and turn their back on you.
26:51
And these people are going through deaths in their family.
26:54
They're going through a hard time.
26:56
They need the church. But the churches in essence,
26:59
turn their back on them. And so that I think that
27:03
correlates a lot to our subject today and some of the stuff we
27:06
experienced in the realm of legalism.
27:10
And, you know, listening to these stories, a lot of this
27:14
drama, it all centers around a new pastor coming in.
27:18
I don't know what it is. And I think you hit the nail on
27:22
the head. Looking back at my experience, a
27:25
lot of drama came in when we brought the new pastor in.
27:28
And I think it was because, you know, as a legalistic
27:33
institution, we were looking at the wrong things.
27:36
We were looking at, you know, we need to get all our make sure
27:40
they believe the same thing we believe instead of saying we
27:43
need to make sure they're qualified according to
27:45
Scripture. And I know in my personal
27:48
experience, the only weapon that the most effective weapon that
27:53
the church uses outside of manipulation, once they
27:57
understand they can't control you anymore is to shun you, is
28:01
to cancel you, is to actively work against you.
28:05
I know for me it was posting an NIV verse on Facebook and that
28:11
was all it took man, for the onslaught that come on towards
28:14
me and, and being trying to be cancelled, shunned.
28:18
I've seen different areas in my life.
28:21
I've seen missionaries on the field that have had their
28:24
support cancelled. I've seen evangelists that have
28:27
had their had their meetings cancelled.
28:30
I've seen people where they're actively trying to get them
28:33
fired from their jobs. And so because we're on this
28:36
subject, the next question we want to ask you is what areas in
28:41
the IFB have you seen people cancelled over?
28:46
Well, yeah, that's that's a great question and I can't
28:50
really answer everything. It would be too, too much.
28:52
But I want to talk about a couple of situations that I
28:55
think might be helpful to some people.
28:57
So during the midst of our second term without a pastor,
29:00
after the short time 1 was was pulled out, we had an abundance
29:04
of lay preachers and pastors that would come and fill our
29:06
pulpits. After the train wreck as it was,
29:09
it really didn't seem like anybody wanted to pass through
29:11
the church, but everybody wanted to fill the pulpit.
29:13
It's a really strange thing. So one Sunday morning, I was the
29:17
sound guy. I was always there first thing
29:18
to unlock the building, get the lights on, get the heat on.
29:22
And one of the deacons would always come in early and often
29:24
we would pray together. Super great guy, love him, don't
29:28
agree with him, but I love him. But he came to me to inform me
29:33
that one of our regular speakers, one of the lay
29:35
preachers that had been visiting, that he'd been using
29:37
other translations as a reference, and that his home
29:40
church had asked him to resign and to leave the church as a
29:42
result. So this young preacher had been
29:45
forthcoming about what he had learned to his congregation and
29:48
had been literally cancelled in his home church as a result.
29:51
So I asked the Deacon what he thought about it as I tried to
29:54
remind him that this young man had been faithfully coming in to
29:56
feed our flock in the absence of a pastor, and that he was doing
29:59
a fine job of it. His response floored me.
30:02
He said, I don't know. I think we need to be careful.
30:04
Even if he preaches from the King James when he's here, he's
30:07
being influenced by other translations.
30:09
So I believe it would be safest not to have him back.
30:12
What I didn't know at the time was that his previous home
30:15
church had been calling around all the IFB churches in the area
30:18
warning them that this young man was out of the will of God and
30:20
that it was dangerous to have him in to speak.
30:23
Not only had this young minister been cancelled in his church, he
30:27
had been cancelled in the IFBI. Didn't know what it's time, but
30:30
I was pretty much next. But if we want to step back in
30:38
time for what I think is a more helpful example, especially for
30:41
a lot of people who might be coming in to listen to this
30:43
podcast after having lived through the types of things that
30:46
we three have, I kind of have to delve a little bit into the
30:49
madness that was the ministry of the short term IFB pastor.
30:52
So unbeknownst to us, his wife had been spiritually and
30:55
verbally abusing many of the ladies in the church.
30:57
It went unnoticed for months because none of the victims were
31:00
willing to speak up. And as a side note, it's really
31:02
scary to see all this in retrospect because this person
31:05
knew exactly how to pick victims.
31:07
It's like a disgusting 6th sense, but she was able to pick
31:09
out the weak and the vulnerable. People I've been friends with
31:12
for years and never would have seen them putting up with
31:14
something like that. So little by little people
31:18
started noticing things that just didn't add up.
31:20
Some people were being pulled out of healthy ministries and
31:23
being replaced for no apparent reason.
31:25
Come to find out, for the most part, those were the people that
31:28
were the families of the ones being abused, but we didn't know
31:30
that in the moment. The pastor, he brought in a
31:33
friend from that now defunct Bible college to take over song
31:36
leading and run the choir and eventually the youth group.
31:39
And later we learned that he was secretly paying paying him out
31:41
of church funds against the church as well.
31:44
We began to see small outbursts of frustration from both of
31:46
them, sometimes body language, other times brief mistreatment
31:49
of people, especially from this pastor's wife.
31:52
But we gave continual grace as a church as she was coming into a
31:55
brand new culture with a whole lot of responsibility as an IFB.
31:58
Pastor's wife and he had never LED a church anywhere near
32:01
anywhere near that size. They really had a lot on their
32:03
plate. But eventually the dam broke.
32:06
One day, a young lady from the youth group, she spoke up
32:09
against a perceived injustice and was verbally attacked by the
32:12
pastor's wife in a public place. The family was incredibly well
32:16
respected in the community and in the church, and so they
32:18
sought recourse through the Deacon board.
32:20
They simply asked for an apology and repentance for the actions,
32:23
but no real effort was made to right the wrong.
32:26
In lieu of an apology and repentance, the family was
32:28
instructed to forgive and forget because that's what was best for
32:31
the face of the church in the community.
32:34
With that, they ought to leave the church.
32:36
When I found out that my friends had left, I reached out to them.
32:39
They explained what had transpired in a failed attempt
32:42
to advocate for them. I spoke to the other leaders of
32:44
the church only to learn that my friends have been reduced to an
32:47
acceptable loss for the greater good.
32:49
This man, his wife, and their children who has served
32:51
faithfully for years in that church, They were collateral
32:54
damage. They've been cancelled from
32:57
their home church. Now you might think that it's a
32:59
stretch, but I really think it's a shining example of cancel
33:02
culture in the IFB. They spoke against the family of
33:06
the, quote, man of God, and the consensus of leadership was to
33:08
shut out their concerns and thereby shut them out.
33:13
And there are countless more examples, but I think that
33:15
really paints a fair picture of what canceling can look like.
33:19
What I've seen the different reasons, probably the two most
33:22
prevalent reasons for people to get canceled in the IFB.
33:27
Yeah, We often talk about how when people began this eye
33:32
opening experience, these moments where the dam breaks, we
33:36
begin to see more and more. Are there any personal examples
33:40
that you have of you been cancelled or a situation where
33:43
you were cancelled in ministry or shut down or hindered in what
33:49
you were doing? Yeah, yeah, I think I had my
33:52
questions out of order, so I'll scroll to them to my notes here.
33:56
So I do want to share some stuff that hopefully will be helpful
34:00
to people based on my based on my personal experience.
34:02
I mentioned earlier about our music ministry and what I didn't
34:06
say is it helped me learn a new degree of hate within
34:08
Christianity. So love This Life was founded
34:11
within the walls of an IFB church, actually at a youth
34:13
rally with with Elijah and Maddie, the two that I mentioned
34:19
earlier. But it was never a church
34:22
ministry. It was always a pair of church
34:23
ministry. I LED music at at that church
34:27
for a couple years. And actually that's one way in
34:29
which I got canceled. This one, the pastor brought his
34:31
friend in. Suddenly I was no longer the
34:33
song leader, which was challenging in its own, but I
34:36
hope a lot of people serve, you know, serve in the musical
34:39
ministry during that time. But love this life was always a
34:42
parish church ministry. So having said that, we were
34:45
asked to sing that our church during a revival meeting.
34:48
This was right after this interim pastor had been forced
34:50
out and the church was a wreck and they had begged me and the
34:53
other family had been pushed out to come back.
34:55
So we were asked to sing around 4 songs and we did.
34:59
We sang. We sang Amazing Grace to Chris
35:01
Tomlin, My Chains are gone version.
35:02
We sang Goodness of God from Bethel.
35:06
We sang I can Only Imagine and one one that Elijah wrote
35:09
himself called Hallelujah. So this visiting evangelist
35:14
indignantly told us that since we didn't have a pastor that he
35:17
was going to pastor us. He went on to tell us, never
35:20
having met any of us, that we did not have the discernment to
35:22
choose our own songs. No, we should ask other people
35:25
which songs we should sing. He then stated that the author
35:29
of Goodness of God was a heretic who was unsaved and on their way
35:31
to hell and that there would be no dancing in heaven because
35:34
we'd be spending our eternity on our faces if we even made it.
35:38
And I even went back and listened to the audio clip again
35:40
yesterday to make sure that I was objectively sharing what I
35:43
said, what was said. It's been two years ago and it's
35:46
still really, really, really frustrated me.
35:48
But to our point, when I this is this is a little gooped up being
35:55
out of order, this is when I really started to figure that
35:59
out. The next day I spoke with the
36:02
spoke with the standing Deacon who was unable to be there that
36:05
night about the way the things were approached and how it
36:07
impacted some of the people in that church.
36:09
I will say that there were there are members of the church, that
36:11
church who walked out that day two years ago and have not yet
36:13
returned over those statements. I asked him to listen to the
36:16
audio and he declined to. He had already spoken to the
36:20
elder who led the service, who was related to the speaker and
36:23
also the same person who had sided with Tony Hudson and the
36:27
others, and the matter was settled.
36:29
Nothing had been done wrong from his perspective and we were
36:32
asked not to sing at our home church while that visiting
36:36
preacher was there. Man, that's rough.
36:42
Definitely. Well, let's ask you this.
36:46
What? What do you think the typical
36:47
response is when people are cancelled?
36:51
Typical response or the mature response, because the typical
36:56
response is definitely not the mature one.
37:04
So I guess we want to ask what happens when people gets
37:09
cancelled? Everyone's experience is
37:11
different, but I'm going to do my best my do the best that I
37:15
can to share what I've experienced as minister to
37:18
others to have been cancelled and then, yeah, maybe even a
37:22
little bit more about myself, who knows?
37:25
So talking about my friends that I went to bat for without saying
37:29
so much as to name them, they're pillars in the community and I
37:32
cherish the friendship of the whole family.
37:34
The first thing that really popped up when I talked to these
37:37
people, I sat down with them and we discussed it is a feeling of
37:41
desertion. You mentioned shunning earlier
37:43
and that's really what they experienced and later what I
37:45
experienced and over 100 people for years who claimed they loved
37:49
you, they mostly turned their back on you.
37:52
Desertion doesn't do even the beginnings of justice to the to
37:56
the feelings that were had. Seeing the biblical model of
37:59
repentance and resolution buried by the desire to hold up the
38:02
public image of someone in open rebellion against God is bad.
38:07
When you see your friends, your brothers and sisters that you
38:09
love, they abandon you in mass as a result of this, as a result
38:13
of the fact that you were a victim.
38:15
That's a brand new level of hurt comparatively.
38:18
You know, I was cancelled because I had enough influence
38:20
to initiate some real change. And I figured out a lot of what
38:23
we were selling wasn't truth, but tradition.
38:25
I really, I was just, I was a threat to the status quo.
38:28
These people got cancelled because they had been attacked
38:31
without cause and they didn't want people to keep getting
38:33
hurt. They were trying to protect the
38:35
community from the, from the wolves in sheep's clothing,
38:37
honestly, And they were deserted as a result.
38:42
And another thing that you'll see as a result of being
38:45
cancelled is a feeling of disillusionment.
38:48
And this one's really scary because it can lead to
38:50
deconstruction. At the risk of leaving people
38:52
behind, I wanted to find disillusionment because we never
38:55
know who might be listening. The Oxford Dictionary defines
38:57
disillusionment is a feeling of disappointment resulting from
39:01
the discovery that something is not as good as one believed it
39:03
to be. So when we realized that we've
39:06
been shunned, shut out, de platformed, dismissed, or
39:09
whatever other sentiments synonym you want to use for
39:11
cancelled, it causes you to question everything you've ever
39:14
believed. You know, if somebody's
39:16
listening and they're waking up to the dangers of legalism,
39:18
they're probably living in this battle right now.
39:21
And I definitely want to say that it's a spiritual battle.
39:23
The devil wants nothing more than to convince us that
39:25
everything we've ever believed is false and that we should
39:28
deconstruct our faith. But instead of deconstructing
39:31
it, we can just add, we can ask ourselves, what is it made of?
39:36
The statement comes to mind, which you win them with is what
39:38
you win them to. And that speaks volumes in this
39:41
moment in the IFB. They love to say that we're
39:44
saved by grace through faith, not of works.
39:46
Lest any man should boast they're right as well.
39:49
But then as soon as someone disagrees with them on some
39:52
secondary or tertiary issue, their response is either they're
39:56
not right with God, or they never were a believer to begin
39:58
with. That's because what they were
40:00
one with is what they were one too.
40:03
The tradition, the way Granddad practice his faith.
40:06
The old hymns, the old paths, the old fashioned fundamentalist
40:09
faith. And dare I even say the
40:11
authority of the King James Version of the Bible and not the
40:14
authority of the God who authored it?
40:15
And yeah, that's a challenging statement, but there are cases
40:17
in which it's true. What you win them with is what
40:20
you win them too. I wasn't saved in an IFB church,
40:23
but I was a disciple then one. And that left me with a whole
40:26
lot of unlearning to do. When I finally woke up, I
40:30
definitely felt disillusioned. So one of the things that used
40:34
to get me in trouble in the IFB was this statement of faith that
40:37
cannot be tested, cannot be trusted.
40:41
My perspective as a Bible teacher is that it's my job to
40:43
help people think about Scripture and ask questions, not
40:46
to lay out my truth and expect them to blindly believe me.
40:49
The problem is, is that my truth has to align with God's truth
40:53
where it isn't truth at all. And this is where legalism
40:55
starts falling apart. And This is why cancel culture
40:58
is a necessary part of legalism. It can't just, it just can't
41:02
survive without it. So in the end, cancel culture,
41:05
it leaves us disenfranchised. That's a fancy way of saying
41:08
that we're stripped of our rights.
41:10
My friend I mentioned earlier was asked to leave his church
41:12
and deprived of the ability to fulfill God's will for his life
41:15
as a result of coming out of legalism.
41:18
If that's not disenfranchisement, I don't know
41:20
what is. I'm still a Baptist.
41:22
I still believe in the priesthood of the believer,
41:24
which means that it's all of our jobs to voice our faith into a
41:26
world that needs to hear it. Not only that, but me, as
41:29
somebody who's specifically called into ministry, it's all
41:32
the more important for me to share God's truth and God's love
41:35
with the world. And cancel culture robs us of
41:38
the ability to do that. So one more example.
41:42
Someone who used to be a friend of mine who shared meals
41:45
together, went on trips together.
41:46
I taught their kids in school, Sunday school, they taught mine.
41:49
They literally told their children that my family was dead
41:54
to their family because I left an IFB church.
41:57
We live in a small community. You know, there's been times
42:00
I've seen them in public, public places, and I see their faces
42:03
wanting to talk to me but knowing that they're not allowed
42:05
to. They're teenagers trying to
42:07
figure out how to follow God in this mixed up world.
42:09
And cancel culture from the IFB is destroying their developing
42:12
perspective on Christian behavior.
42:14
And personally, that's the most heartbreaking example of cancel
42:17
culture that I've seen is forced cancellation from somebody else
42:20
who doesn't agree with it. You know that that happened to
42:24
me, Joe, when, when you're talking about that, we were in
42:27
Idaho and Arkansas for eight years.
42:29
So we were away from the people here.
42:32
And when we had moved back about eight or nine years ago, I was
42:37
walking through the Statesville Walmart and I saw my former
42:41
pastor, his wife. And I'm sorry, my former
42:44
pastor's wife and her daughter, who I've been on a mission trip
42:47
with and we've done ministry together.
42:50
And I knew they saw me because I saw them and they sort of like
42:54
90° down the first aisle they could see.
42:57
It's all like, well, maybe they didn't see me.
42:59
And so I like took off and sort of was going to cut them off.
43:02
And I cut them off. Hey, guys, you know, I'm, I'm,
43:04
I'm that bubbly guy and that you could just tell the distraught,
43:09
like, what are we going to say? This guy, we don't associate
43:12
with him anymore. I gave him hugs.
43:14
Like I told Allie, though, afterwards, I said I could just
43:17
feel that they were trying to avoid me at all costs.
43:21
Someone had told them we don't associate with him.
43:24
We don't. And someone who would have been
43:27
less mature would have taken that and would have really been
43:30
hurt and like you said, deconstructed or even got
43:33
bitter, got mad, got angry, and sort of turned from where they
43:37
were at. Often times that's what happens,
43:40
right? We, we get shunned, we get
43:41
turned, we just deconstruct or we get bitter.
43:45
How, what are some ways that maybe that you've seen through
43:48
talking to different people and as you went through your
43:51
different transition, what are some ways we can respond where
43:54
the deconstruction, the bitterness, the the hurt can
43:58
sort of be alleviated when we are canceled?
44:01
Yeah, that's a great question. James and I kind of when I was
44:04
thinking about it before the meeting, I kind of looked at it
44:07
as how we personally can do it, but it applies to other people
44:10
just as the same as it does US. You know, one of my mom's go to
44:14
sayings when I was a kid, she was a single mother of three
44:16
ridiculous kids. We were, we were, we were awful.
44:20
But she would always say 2 wrongs don't make her right.
44:22
And it's oversimplification for sure, but it's easy to forget
44:26
when we find ourselves resentful.
44:29
I don't know who said it, but I once heard somebody say that
44:31
resentment is when you punish yourself for somebody else's
44:33
wrongdoings. I'll tell you that when I heard
44:36
that, it kicked me square in a mouth.
44:38
So I've kind of talked through in my head three different ways
44:41
to prevent that resentment. The bitterness that it's so easy
44:44
to latch onto when we've been hurt.
44:47
So the first thing we want to do when we find ourselves cancelled
44:49
is find a place to be, to be loved, and to grow in our faith.
44:52
It's not popular preaching, but Hebrews 10/25 tells us not to
44:55
forsake the assembling of ourselves together.
44:58
And a big part of what that's telling us is that God ordained
45:01
this assembling that we call a church gathering or service.
45:04
We ought to take it seriously. There's an aspect of corporate
45:08
worship that you can't fulfill on your own.
45:10
But with that said, church isn't necessarily a building with a
45:13
staple and a pulpit. Church can occur.
45:15
Church can occur within that type of building.
45:17
But the distinction is really the people, right?
45:20
The church is the assembled body of believers gathered together
45:23
to worship, to praise, and to be challenged by God's Word.
45:26
So if anybody's listening and they're leaving legalism, please
45:29
don't miss this. A Christian without a church is
45:32
like a saddle without a horse. It is exactly what it's designed
45:36
to be, but there's no mode of action for it to do what it was
45:39
designed to do. We're created to worship.
45:42
We're commanded with the great commandment.
45:44
We're called to follow Christ. And if we're doing that, we
45:46
should be committed to reaching people and the church, the
45:50
gathered body of believers in whatever type of space that you
45:52
have, that's God, God's vehicle for this work.
45:57
So the second thing that I found helpful is to keep the main
46:00
thing, the main thing. We have to stay focused on the
46:03
God who rescued us, not the people who tried to destroy us.
46:07
I made the statement earlier, which you win them with is what
46:09
you win them to. If I had been 1 to a tradition
46:12
or a translation instead of the truth, I would have spiritually
46:16
perished. I would have deconstructed my
46:18
faith, I would have reasoned it all down the tubes and I would
46:20
be going about my life instead of fighting to reach people with
46:23
the truth. God rescued me with His Son's
46:25
sacrifice, no matter what value other humans place on me.
46:29
And that's what leads me to #3 which is probably the most
46:32
important thing that I've realized in the past two years.
46:36
We have to realize that God is the one who places value on
46:39
people, not us. It sounds basic, but it's a game
46:43
changer. I don't think I could live
46:46
without without this principle in the forefront of my mind
46:48
every single day. So to to break that down, if we
46:52
say that we have the truth, and the truth that we have says that
46:56
God loves us so much that he sent Jesus to die for our
46:59
redemption, what right do we have to place a different value
47:02
on someone, no matter what they've done?
47:05
Our flesh wants to fix value to people based on what they can do
47:08
for our benefit. But that's not a biblical
47:10
approach. Instead, we have to realize that
47:14
the ground is level at the foot of the cross.
47:16
It's really challenging to think of someone who tried to destroy
47:19
your ability to impact people with God's truth, especially
47:22
while they were claiming to be protecting God's truth, as
47:25
someone God values just as much as he values us.
47:28
But it's true. For an example, we can look at
47:31
Saul on the road to Damascus. That's pretty much what I just
47:33
described. Did you ever wonder how the
47:36
apostle Paul was stoned to Lystra and left for dead, and
47:39
then that, then he got back up and he walked right back into
47:41
that city to glorify God? It's because Paul never forgot
47:46
the soul that God rescued him from.
47:48
I'll say that again. Paul never forgot the soul that
47:52
God rescued him from. And if we can keep that type of
47:56
an attitude, I think that's going to get us a long way and
47:59
being bitter against the people who have hurt us.
48:03
That's good stuff, bro. That's really, really good.
48:06
I know that, you know, when we do this, we have this tendency.
48:13
When we're cancelled or when we leave legalism, we have this
48:17
tendency to throw the baby out with the bath water.
48:20
We have this tendency. We talked about this with Olivia
48:23
too. We have this tendency to swing
48:26
so far in the other direction that we forget all the things
48:32
that that you mentioned and you know, you know, like you said,
48:36
finding community and keeping the gospel 1st and knowing that
48:40
God places value on US. James put that of those in the
48:43
show notes. And so we tend to forget those
48:46
things now, I think. We all.
48:49
All agree that one of the best examples of how to handle these
48:54
situations correctly is Jesus. We look at Jesus in the Gospels
48:58
and if anyone was put on blast, it was Christ.
49:02
If anyone come after Jesus and tried to cancel Jesus, and if
49:08
anybody experienced that, it was the Lord.
49:10
And he just had this, this grace and compassion even for other
49:16
people that, you know, we're trying to cancel now.
49:21
He still held them accountable and he still told them the
49:25
truth. But at the same time, he did
49:28
show them a level of grace and compassion.
49:30
And so we have to try to learn from that example.
49:33
So one of the last questions we want to ask you is how, how,
49:38
when we are canceled, do we not blast others or try to cancel
49:45
them in return? How hard is it to, you know, not
49:48
take vengeance ourselves? Yeah, that's, that's awesome,
49:53
Brett. And I want to leave with this
49:55
statement. I have not always mastered this.
49:57
I want to tell you that I have learned from, learned from
49:59
mistakes just as much as I have from wisdom.
50:02
So I don't want anybody to listen to this and think, well,
50:04
he got it all figured out on day one.
50:06
No, it takes time. You're going to mess up.
50:08
You're going to, you're going to reach out to people in ways that
50:11
that you'll later regret. I'm not saying you should.
50:14
I'm saying expect it because we're all humans.
50:17
But we can start when we talk about not how, how do we keep
50:20
from destroying others when we're cancelled?
50:22
We can start by keeping the three things that we just talked
50:24
about in mind. You know, God called us to a
50:26
purpose. God's truth transcends and God
50:29
is the one who determines the worth of a person.
50:32
So that's a great place to start because it keeps us focused on
50:35
what's important. If we can submit to God's place
50:40
value on these people, the the ones who legitimately hurt us,
50:43
if we can understand that God sets that value and not us, we
50:47
will understand that they don't deserve to be hurt any more than
50:49
we did. And that brings me right back to
50:52
what we LED with. Mom was pretty smart when she
50:54
said two wrongs don't make her right.
50:56
So to say that differently, if I love people, if I say that I
51:00
love people and that I believe the Bible, yet I live my life in
51:03
such a way that I leave them to their own devices without both
51:06
showing them what I believe and offering them a place in it.
51:09
One or two things must be true. Either I do not actually believe
51:13
what I claim to believe or I don't actually love them.
51:17
If if the if the world view that I previously stated is my
51:20
worldview and I believe that it is, how can I cut people down
51:24
the way that I was cut down? I'm not saying this is easy.
51:27
It's supremely challenging the same, the same people that we've
51:31
been dancing around throughout this discussion.
51:34
They're dangerous. They're dangerous to people.
51:36
They're dangerous to the gospel. They're willing to distort
51:38
truths. They're willing to destroy
51:39
people to protect their glass houses of tradition over truths.
51:43
One of the people I actually went out to groups of people
51:47
telling them that they should disregard me and call me off a
51:50
legal drop me off as a false teacher simply because I was
51:54
willing to take the position on the King James that the
51:56
translation team took themselves.
51:59
And because I was willing to look at hate and corruption down
52:01
the nose and address it both inside the church and out.
52:05
That made that made me a false teacher.
52:09
And it's hard to look at those situations to watch people break
52:14
the rules they set as a pulpit committee in order to stack the
52:16
deck for pastoral candidates and to see the corruption, to see
52:19
the hate, see the anger, and to not want to go out and go after
52:23
people. So I'm not telling you that it's
52:25
easy, because it's not. So how do we know where to draw
52:29
the line between destroying someone in Vengeance and
52:32
honestly exposing corruption to protect people?
52:37
I'm not sure that I know the best way that I could do it here
52:39
is by withholding the names of people and the places.
52:42
I think another good, another good indicator is, is spend time
52:47
in prayer. We don't need to react.
52:50
We need to respond to hate and legalism within the church.
52:53
And to react is to act out of emotion, whereas to respond is
52:57
to act is to act calculatedly out of passion.
53:01
But we have to, we have to be able to build the boldness in
53:05
people to be willing to face corruption where it exists.
53:08
We can't just shut down and say we're not addressing this
53:11
because that's what's happened historically.
53:14
And if we don't address it, we're allowing more people to
53:16
get hurt, more people to become victims, and ultimately more
53:19
people that never truly accept Christ as their Lord, at which
53:22
point we've failed in our direction.
53:25
So we're called to bring people to Christ.
53:26
And if we're not doing that or protecting that, we're out of
53:29
line. There's a good indicator if what
53:31
we're doing doesn't bring glory to God or protect the gospel,
53:36
then we're probably out of line. So we just have to, we have to
53:40
choose our battles, do our best to address the things that we
53:43
can. And when we can't, remember that
53:45
God will not be mocked. These false prophets, these
53:48
wolves in sheep's clothing, Jesus said, verily I say unto
53:52
you, they have their reward. So there's some thoughts on on
53:56
how to keep from destroying the people who try to destroy us.
54:01
Yeah, that's great. And as you were talking, my mind
54:05
immediately I put my phone out because I wanted to find exactly
54:07
where it was us, I could quote it went to a passage of
54:10
scripture because oftentimes, you know, we we don't want to
54:14
hurt people. It's never our intention, but
54:18
Paul in the book of Romans was dealing with people who were
54:22
causing divisions. And as you mentioned that where
54:25
they were, they're they're purposely going out and sowing
54:28
seeds of doubt and division. Paul gives us some really
54:32
important words here in Romans 1617 and 18.
54:35
He says, I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for
54:38
those who create divisions and obstacles contrary to the
54:41
teaching that you learned. Avoid them because such people
54:45
do not serve our Lord Christ but their own appetites.
54:48
They deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting with smooth talk
54:52
and flattery words. I think oftentimes we, we, we
54:57
the pendulum as we talked about, we don't want to swing toward
55:00
bitterness and anger, but we also we swing to the point where
55:03
we don't want to hurt people either.
55:05
But Paul says here, listen, if they're serving their own
55:07
stomachs, if they're serving their own flattery with smooth
55:10
talk to build their own agenda, then there needs to be a time
55:13
where we come out and we talk about it.
55:15
I'm not saying that it's right now and right here, but we don't
55:19
want to not talk about it and cause another church struggle
55:23
and harm because we didn't talk about it.
55:25
The one practical example was there's a church down the road
55:28
from where I was serving at. The pastor embezzled thousands,
55:33
hundreds of thousands of dollars, left the church broke,
55:36
sold the school out from underneath them and picked up
55:39
his family and moved to Texas because a church out there was
55:42
looking for a pastor, a larger church.
55:44
And the deacons called the church that he had just left
55:48
from and all this had happened from and asked them a reference
55:52
and they told him flat out this is what he did.
55:54
He embezzled money to his own 5O1C3.
55:58
He took money out of the shirt. He sold the school out from
56:01
underneath this. The church let them and said we
56:03
really like this guy. Thanks for the reference.
56:05
We're still going to hire him. It's crazy.
56:08
All that to say, sometimes we can warn and tell people and
56:12
they're still liable for their own mistakes and their own
56:15
decisions. So I think grace and truth have
56:18
to be there. Sometimes the truth has to come
56:20
in with grace and address some of these issues, not necessarily
56:25
trying to cancel them, just exposing truth and exposing the
56:28
nature of what it is when when situations like that happen.
56:32
Yeah, I agree. And it's, you know, it's funny
56:34
that exact scripture was was quoted to people to tell them
56:36
that I was that false teacher that you picked that.
56:40
I love it. I love it.
56:41
Well, Joe, any closing remarks or faults for us, we've got
56:44
maybe 5 minutes left to talk to anything that you may have, but
56:48
I've thoroughly enjoyed so far what we've talked about.
56:52
Yeah, I've had, I've had, and I'll tell you first, this is
56:55
healing like this has been supremely therapeutic for me,
56:58
just to sit through and think about all this after we talked,
57:01
and then to sit down with you too, you know, men of God, and
57:04
just talk through it, get your reflections.
57:07
I have enjoyed this fastly and I think this is going to be
57:09
supremely helpful. I don't have a lot in closing,
57:12
just a little bit of a summary statement.
57:15
Sometimes we like to think about cancel culture as if it's some
57:18
novel thing that the woke community came up with, but it's
57:21
really nothing new. Now they've taken it to another
57:24
level, but it's a problem that crosses every segment of
57:27
society. We can trace it all the way back
57:29
to the era of the kings when someone who stood up against the
57:33
ruling power would be executed. The ultimate cancellation.
57:37
And you know, the Romans and the Pharisees, and you kind of
57:39
alluded to this as well. They even tried to cancel Jesus,
57:42
but boy, I'm thankful that that was to no lasting effect.
57:46
And as we think through all this, and I love this series
57:49
that you all are working on about what culture in the church
57:52
and it's brought a lot of it's been very educational things
57:55
like CRT that I really didn't know anything about.
57:58
It's been helpful and I can see that creeping in in different
58:00
places since you've helped me to help me to see it.
58:05
But we, we've got to keep the gospel first.
58:07
We we've got to stay focused. Like I said earlier, keep the
58:10
main thing, the main thing. And I think I think this, this
58:14
podcast does a great job of that.
58:15
I'm very thankful for the opportunity to have been in
58:17
here. And I just I just want to name
58:20
that. Joe, the part of your story that
58:24
sticks in my mind so much is the the music part where, you know,
58:31
you went to sing the songs and the pastor, the evangelist said,
58:34
you don't have a pastor. I'll pastor you.
58:36
And I just, oh, I just that feeling you must have had, you
58:40
know, going through that. I've experienced that and so
58:44
many of our listeners have experienced that.
58:48
And so I think it, you're right. It is healing for us to come
58:52
together to share our stories, say, hey, I've been there.
58:56
I know what it's like I've gotten out, I've found peace,
59:00
I've found comfort. I, you know, going into a new
59:05
church after that can be like a breath of fresh air.
59:08
And we just so thankful to you coming on here and sharing your
59:13
story. And we'll never know maybe till
59:17
we get to eternity. The people that you help Share
59:20
your story. But there are people out there
59:22
listening right now who are going through the same things
59:24
that you've been through, that we've been through that's being
59:27
helped by this, and we just appreciate your time.
59:30
Yeah, yeah, I definitely appreciate it.
59:32
And if I had the opportunity to plug the music ministry, if
59:38
anybody's interested in it, check it out.
59:40
Love this life on Facebook. We don't really do much on
59:42
Instagram or TikTok or any of the other apps because I'm old.
59:45
I'm almost 40. But.
59:48
But yeah, please check us out if there's anything that I can do
59:51
to anybody to be a blessing, you know, mentioned my podcast at
59:54
the beginning of our churches in Sutton, WV Reach out to me.
59:57
If you're in the area and you're escaping legalism and you need a
59:59
place to land, by all means, please.
1:00:02
You know, we're here. All three of us are here for
1:00:05
that mission to help people who don't know where to go.
1:00:09
Absolutely. Thanks, Joe for coming again.
1:00:12
His podcast is 99 for one and we'll try to link that in our
1:00:15
show notes as well. Hopefully you will go and check
1:00:18
that out. And Brett, any last thoughts
1:00:21
from you? Yeah, before we close out, let's
1:00:24
give it the old outro. I think this this calls for the
1:00:27
old one. I love it.
1:00:29
Well, until next time, to God, not the.
1:00:31
Pastor. Be the glory found.
1:00:37
My new name found that good grace found that healing, and
1:00:41
the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning that has no
1:00:45
ending. I found that second chance from
1:00:46
my best friend, from my forgiveness, from my happiness.
1:00:49
I've been singing ever since. I found my freedom, me all.
1:01:06
Thanks for listening to the Four Freedom Podcast.
1:01:09
If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking,
1:01:12
subscribing, or sharing our podcast or whichever podcast
1:01:16
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