Latest / Radio 831: A Romance Podcast / In Defense of Age Gaps, Anna Maria Volkova on Games and the Russian MC, and What We've Been Reading

Transcript

In Defense of Age Gaps, Anna Maria Volkova on Games and the Russian MC, and What We've Been Reading · Radio 831: A Romance Podcast

0:06
Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to the Radio eight three one podcast.
0:09
Speaker 1: We're your hosts, Sinjon Obasker and Tyler McCall, and we're
0:13
Speaker 1: so excited to talk everything romance, from the novels and
0:17
Speaker 1: the tropes, to the book, to screen adaptations and of
0:20
Speaker 1: course the drama of it all, you know, unpacking what
0:23
Speaker 1: the genre says about who we are and how we love.
0:26
Speaker 1: So Sounge, I feel like something that has come up
0:29
Speaker 1: more than once that we haven't really delved into that.
0:31
Speaker 1: I just feel really passionately we need to get into
0:33
Speaker 1: today right now.
0:34
Speaker 2: Right.
0:34
Speaker 1: The second is that you have mentioned before that you
0:39
Speaker 1: are the number one age gap defender.
0:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, I am. I am cancel me, take me away,
0:46
Speaker 3: Officer Cuffer. I am an age gap defender.
0:49
Speaker 1: I am so counsel. I hope you're prepared because you're
0:53
Speaker 1: a surprise mock trial and I need you to present
0:56
Speaker 1: your case. I need you to make the case for
0:58
Speaker 1: age gap. If you are going to that's number one defender,
1:01
Speaker 1: you better be prepared.
1:02
Speaker 3: So here's the thing, right, I am an age gap
1:05
Speaker 3: defender in that I think that it's interesting when romance
1:08
Speaker 3: novels talk about power. I have always been interested in
1:11
Speaker 3: when romance novels talk about power, and there are many
1:14
Speaker 3: ways that romance novels accomplish that, right, like they may
1:17
Speaker 3: talk about power when it comes to rates, or gender
1:19
Speaker 3: or class or ideally some version of all of those
1:23
Speaker 3: things as it pertains to a given relationship. And I
1:26
Speaker 3: think part of how romance, as a form of genre
1:29
Speaker 3: fiction is particularly able to accomplish that is by taking
1:32
Speaker 3: something to its natural and most extreme end. It's not
1:36
Speaker 3: that he's attractive and like tull, it's that he's six'
1:40
Speaker 3: four and. Hulking it's not that she's a pretty smart,
1:44
Speaker 3: person it's that she's, brilliant she's award, winning she's you,
1:47
Speaker 3: know whatever it. Is many romance novels traffic and exaggeration
1:51
Speaker 3: as a tool to illustrate some other, point and so for,
1:54
Speaker 3: me age gap is something that is able to also accomplish.
1:58
Speaker 3: That when we're looking at like a billionaire commoner, romance
2:02
Speaker 3: that class discrepancy is taken to its most extreme end
2:06
Speaker 3: to illustrate a point about, class, right whether that's like
2:09
Speaker 3: the front.
2:10
Speaker 2: Of the romance or the subtext of the.
2:11
Speaker 3: Romance and, SIMILARLY i think age gaps in romance serve
2:15
Speaker 3: the same. Purpose they exist to demonstrate the degree to
2:18
Speaker 3: which like gender dynamics and class dynamics and even racial
2:23
Speaker 3: dynamics are altered through the axis of. Age right where
2:27
Speaker 3: like typically the older person is the more financially established,
2:30
Speaker 3: person the more class mobile, person the person who more
2:34
Speaker 3: often than not is a man but is not always,
2:37
Speaker 3: like age gap is about more than just.
2:38
Speaker 1: That put a pin in, that because we'll come back to.
2:40
Speaker 2: That we will come.
2:41
Speaker 3: Back so that's WHY i like Age gap in, romance
2:44
Speaker 3: BECAUSE i find it to be narratively. Interesting, HOWEVER i
2:48
Speaker 3: understand that people find this to be like morally. Objectionable
2:51
Speaker 3: the HILL i am willing to die on is that
2:53
Speaker 3: our allegiances to realism in romance need not be so,
2:57
Speaker 3: strong and the idea that they do need to be
3:00
Speaker 3: instructional on moral and ethical issues is a failure of
3:05
Speaker 3: understanding of how genre fiction, works wherein being morally didactic
3:10
Speaker 3: is actually an uninteresting way of telling a.
3:12
Speaker 4: Story i'm not saying that everyone has to.
3:15
Speaker 3: Read Age, gap or that they have to love, it
3:17
Speaker 3: or whatever it, is BUT i do think that suggesting
3:20
Speaker 3: that because this does come up every time someone publishes
3:22
Speaker 3: an age gap romance, Novel Like I'M i think the
3:25
Speaker 3: most iconic recent example Is Problematic Summer romance By Ali,
3:28
Speaker 3: haeslwood which is a book THAT i really really, loved
3:31
Speaker 3: even before the book came, out WHICH i don't think
3:33
Speaker 3: there was supposed to be an advanced. Announcement it was
3:35
Speaker 3: accidentally leaked by The library Of congress that the book
3:37
Speaker 3: was coming, Out.
3:37
Speaker 1: Which iconic way to have your book. Leak by the, way.
3:40
Speaker 3: Iconic the discourse that was spurred by the announcement of
3:44
Speaker 3: that book existing and people's anxieties about the idea of
3:47
Speaker 3: an age gap relationship between a what twenty two and
3:50
Speaker 3: thirty nine year OLD i think they, were was so
3:54
Speaker 3: fascinating to me BECAUSE i think, people even non religious,
3:59
Speaker 3: people even people who claim to have progressive, politics whatever
4:02
Speaker 3: that looks. Like and this isn't me being like, UNKIND
4:05
Speaker 3: i just mean this quite. Honestly it is The american
4:08
Speaker 3: impulse to seek moralism in, media and it is a
4:13
Speaker 3: really fundamentally conservative. Impulse like the idea that our media
4:17
Speaker 3: is supposed to be in some way didactic and instructional
4:20
Speaker 3: about moral quality is a fundamentally conservative, impulse and there's
4:24
Speaker 3: plenty of literature to substantiate. That, anyway this has been
4:27
Speaker 3: kind of a long winded circular. Argument but the point
4:29
Speaker 3: That i'm trying to make is that age gap is
4:31
Speaker 3: interesting because it explores, power and we should allow our
4:34
Speaker 3: romance novels to explore power subtextually or, textually and age
4:39
Speaker 3: gap is one of many tools that one can use
4:42
Speaker 3: in order to achieve.
4:43
Speaker 1: That, amen do you rest your?
4:45
Speaker 4: Case i'm resting my, case all, Right.
4:46
Speaker 1: Cassel, No i'm in complete. AGREEMENT i think we're in
4:49
Speaker 1: such an interesting time where just in, GENERAL i feel
4:52
Speaker 1: like representation of something in media is understood as like
4:58
Speaker 1: endorsement of. Behavior LIKE i definitely remember When succession was
5:03
Speaker 1: on seeing people who were, like if you enjoy watching
5:06
Speaker 1: these rich, people you're a bad. Person AND i was, like,
5:10
Speaker 1: okay well can you show your math for me really?
5:12
Speaker 1: Quickly LIKE i don't really understand. That. Yeah and this
5:15
Speaker 1: comes up so much around romance, specifically WHERE i think
5:19
Speaker 1: it's really sanitized the genre in a lot of. WAYS
5:21
Speaker 1: i think we've talked about this a little bit around
5:23
Speaker 1: like fidelity and romance, novels like there's just no tolerance
5:27
Speaker 1: for cheating, whatsoever because that is morally. Wrong age gaps
5:32
Speaker 1: are morally. Wrong even if the age gap is like
5:34
Speaker 1: a woman in her upper, Twenties like age gaps are.
5:37
Speaker 1: Bad it reminds me a lot OF i don't know
5:38
Speaker 1: if you've seen the meme Of Detective stabler From law
5:42
Speaker 1: And ORDER svu and it's like she's only fifty? One
5:44
Speaker 1: you sick fuck like? THAT i a, Meme, OKAY i
5:48
Speaker 1: will listend it to. You it gets trotted out a
5:50
Speaker 1: lot when this discourse comes up On, twitter a place
5:52
Speaker 1: WHERE i unfortunately still visit and habitat BECAUSE i have
5:56
Speaker 1: a brain worm that should be studied by. Science but
5:58
Speaker 1: every time they like age, gap like problematic age gap
6:02
Speaker 1: conversation comes, up this this meme Of stapler comes, up
6:05
Speaker 1: and it just makes me think of that a. LOT
6:06
Speaker 1: i think we can have a lot of conversations about
6:09
Speaker 1: how ethical or unethical it is in real life for
6:12
Speaker 1: a thirty nine year old man to be dating a
6:14
Speaker 1: twenty three year old.
6:15
Speaker 4: Woman.
6:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, SURE i have some, questions but it's.
6:18
Speaker 4: Fiction it's.
6:20
Speaker 1: Fiction and also to your, POINT i think it does
6:23
Speaker 1: create these interesting dynamics of what generational gaps mean for
6:30
Speaker 1: a relationship and like cultural because like they're truly like cultural.
6:33
Speaker 1: GAPS i mean that comes up a lot in problematic summer.
6:35
Speaker 1: ROMANCE i feel like these like cultural. GAPS i especially
6:39
Speaker 1: like it when the woman is. OLDER i don't like
6:41
Speaker 1: it when we call that a reverse age, gap because
6:43
Speaker 1: that is still just an age.
6:45
Speaker 3: Gap it's just a regular age. GAP i really do
6:49
Speaker 3: not understand the logic of. That i'm not really sure
6:52
Speaker 3: why people use reverse to DESCRIBE i, mean, WELL i understand,
6:57
Speaker 3: why BUT i do think it's a reinforcement of the
7:00
Speaker 3: heterosexual position as like one hundreds of, people the, normative
7:04
Speaker 3: the like heteropower dynamic as the end all be all
7:07
Speaker 3: of like how people should think about.
7:10
Speaker 1: Relationships i'm going to force you to defend the opposite,
7:14
Speaker 1: point which, is, one is an age gap bad.
7:17
Speaker 2: When people are bad at writing?
7:19
Speaker 4: It, well, yes.
7:21
Speaker 3: Here's the.
7:22
Speaker 2: Thing here's the.
7:22
Speaker 3: Thing here's WHEN i think people do it. Poorly one
7:25
Speaker 3: when people don't take power. Seriously there is something solacious
7:28
Speaker 3: about an age gap that is part of its.
7:30
Speaker 2: Appeal the taboo of it is part of the.
7:32
Speaker 3: Appeal but when people can't move beyond taboo and into something,
7:35
Speaker 3: else into something of, SUBSTANCE i think the pursuit of
7:38
Speaker 3: shock over substance is something that doesn't interest. Me SO
7:41
Speaker 3: i find that to be, Tiresome like there was a
7:45
Speaker 3: lot of discourse ABOUT i don't even remember the, title
7:47
Speaker 3: but this like romance between a coach and a gymnast
7:51
Speaker 3: who was in high. School and for, me that is
7:56
Speaker 3: fundamentally not romantically, persuasive in part Because i'm not interested
8:00
Speaker 3: in reading a sex scene with a, child LIKE i
8:02
Speaker 3: will never.
8:03
Speaker 2: Know that's just never going to appeal to.
8:05
Speaker 3: Me, ALSO i think there was not much of a
8:08
Speaker 3: material contention with the abuse of power in that.
8:11
Speaker 4: Relationship and, also.
8:14
Speaker 3: Like the Whole Larry nassar thing was in the news
8:18
Speaker 3: not too long before, that you, know the idea that
8:20
Speaker 3: this is like a vulnerable group of people was not
8:24
Speaker 3: meaningfully contended with in that erotic. Romance and so those
8:28
Speaker 3: are situations Where i'm, like, yeah that really doesn't interest
8:31
Speaker 3: me at. All and ALSO i find it to be
8:33
Speaker 3: an ineffectual exploration of a theme that has the potential
8:37
Speaker 3: to be doing all kinds of other.
8:38
Speaker 2: Things and it's.
8:39
Speaker 3: Also that like the failure to acknowledge external sources of power,
8:43
Speaker 3: difference the leaning on taboo and salaciousness and, shock it
8:50
Speaker 3: creates something that is like quite boring to, Me LIKE
8:54
Speaker 3: i don't find that to be intimately revealing in any
8:58
Speaker 3: way that matters for my romance reading. Experience AND i
9:01
Speaker 3: think the other piece of it is that even in
9:05
Speaker 3: relationships where there is substantial power, DIFFERENCE i do think
9:11
Speaker 3: in the world of the most intimate interpersonal, Relationship i'm
9:15
Speaker 3: interested in elements of equality and egalitarianism in, Them like
9:19
Speaker 3: it is possible for all other forces in that character's
9:22
Speaker 3: world to be discrepant and for something in the relationship
9:27
Speaker 3: between the two of them to feel incredibly equal and
9:32
Speaker 3: connected in the same way That i'm talking about With
9:34
Speaker 3: ruberta And, taggy where like there are all these external
9:36
Speaker 3: forces that shape how different and a part they, are
9:40
Speaker 3: and also when they go one v one they are
9:43
Speaker 3: equals and you can feel it in the. Writing, yeah
9:47
Speaker 3: so THAT'S i think that's what it.
9:49
Speaker 2: Is you, know.
9:50
Speaker 1: Totally, yeah that is actually a perfect argument for like
9:56
Speaker 1: most taboos and. Romance, well it's like, taboos for taboos
10:00
Speaker 1: is not.
10:00
Speaker 3: Interesting transgression is not inherently, subversive and especially not like
10:04
Speaker 3: hetero transgression like, that it's. Not it's actually the default
10:09
Speaker 3: state of things is, abuse is, exploitation is. Violence so
10:14
Speaker 3: why would that be interesting to me in the context
10:16
Speaker 3: of a narrative unless you're willing to do more. Work
10:18
Speaker 3: what about? That is anything beyond a headline another.
10:21
Speaker 1: BAR i don't know how we're going to top. THAT
10:23
Speaker 1: i don't think we will top. THAT i simply. Don't
10:27
Speaker 1: SO i think YOU'RE i think you won the case with.
10:29
Speaker 2: That thank.
10:30
Speaker 1: You, PERSONALLY i think we can put this.
10:31
Speaker 4: Way one thing about. Us we love a little legal.
10:34
Speaker 1: TERMINOLOGY a little legal, terminology mind. YOU i don't know
10:38
Speaker 1: how to use it, correctly BUT i will use it
10:41
Speaker 1: in Her Harvard admissions essay. Video BUT i do think
10:45
Speaker 1: that this is the appropriate time to have this, conversation
10:48
Speaker 1: because today we're talking With Anna Maria, volkova the author Of,
10:51
Speaker 1: games a spectacular novel centered around a beautiful age gap. Romance,
10:56
Speaker 1: yeah an.
10:57
Speaker 3: Age gap relationship where all of that stuff is. True
10:59
Speaker 3: that external forces mean that these two people are very,
11:02
Speaker 3: apart but their relationship as it stands is Pretty they're
11:06
Speaker 3: on even footing in a way THAT i think is really.
11:08
Speaker 3: Interesting and, Also Anna maria is like so smart and
11:11
Speaker 3: thoughtful and like such a fascinating interesting person to be
11:15
Speaker 3: having this conversation. With she's a writer based In New,
11:18
Speaker 3: york and she grew up in The Pacific northwest and
11:24
Speaker 3: brings all of her experience in family histories from The
11:27
Speaker 3: Soviet union and The Middle east into her, writing which
11:30
Speaker 3: is very.
11:30
Speaker 4: Cool games is her debut AND i.
11:33
Speaker 3: Am really really really really really excited for people to
11:36
Speaker 3: get their hands on it Because tyler AND i both loved,
11:39
Speaker 3: it like capital l have.
11:41
Speaker 1: Love stopped talking about.
11:43
Speaker 2: It, yeah it's actually kind of.
11:44
Speaker 1: Sickening it's Actually i'm afraid that she is going to
11:48
Speaker 1: send me a season.
11:49
Speaker 3: Decison, yeah it's just us being, like we're obsessed with,
11:51
Speaker 3: you all caps, underline, underline but we have her on
11:54
Speaker 3: to talk, about not specifically age, gaps but Actually. Russians
11:57
Speaker 3: we're interested in how she works on carecization Of russians
12:01
Speaker 3: because the older man in that relationship In games is
12:05
Speaker 3: A russian.
12:06
Speaker 1: Man russians so hot right, now so hot right, Now.
12:20
Speaker 3: Anna, maria thank you so much for coming on and
12:23
Speaker 3: for giving us some of your time and quite, frankly
12:26
Speaker 3: massive brilliant brain to poke. At tyler Read games this,
12:31
Speaker 3: Week and as you, Know i've been harping About games
12:33
Speaker 3: on a borderline evangelical level for the last it's, true.
12:37
Speaker 2: Several, months and you know, what it ain't.
12:39
Speaker 5: Much but it's honest work And i'm happy to do.
12:41
Speaker 5: It but thank you so much for coming.
12:43
Speaker 6: On, no of course that means so much to hear.
12:46
Speaker 3: Today the brief is kind of, general, Right, Russians russians,
12:49
Speaker 3: period full. STOP i wonder if you wouldn't mind like
12:53
Speaker 3: pitching it to, us like what is games?
12:54
Speaker 1: About, yeah for.
12:55
Speaker 7: Sure so the headline that we often go With games
12:58
Speaker 7: is about sex and, economics cutting. Deeper we joke it's
13:01
Speaker 7: if Dos coptil had an ahe gab relationship in, it
13:03
Speaker 7: but a little bit. Deeper, Right it's About Lilly, marwan
13:06
Speaker 7: who's like this brilliant economics grad student who starts this
13:09
Speaker 7: very unexpected turbulent relationship with alexandor petrob who is A
13:13
Speaker 7: Wall street banker two decades or, senior who very crucially
13:16
Speaker 7: escaped The Soviet union in its dying. Days he's A Soviet,
13:19
Speaker 7: russian and that nuance is. Important it is a story
13:22
Speaker 7: about like desire and grief and power and loss and
13:26
Speaker 7: what it takes to like winning, capitalism what it means
13:28
Speaker 7: to Be, american like The soviet, traumas, domination, submission, neoliberalism
13:32
Speaker 7: all these things all grappled with together through these two,
13:34
Speaker 7: characters and it's also like very, big immense love letter
13:37
Speaker 7: To New York city as. Well that's sort of the
13:40
Speaker 7: general gist of, it AND i think there's various pockets
13:42
Speaker 7: that the story accesses for readers as they're going through
13:45
Speaker 7: their journey with the.
13:46
Speaker 2: Characters.
13:46
Speaker 3: Too EVERYONE i know who has read it has had
13:49
Speaker 3: such like a specific passionate reaction to the. Work and,
13:52
Speaker 3: like something That i'm always thinking about is how like
13:54
Speaker 3: the goal of writing is not so much to produce
13:57
Speaker 3: something that is like so inoffensive as to be like
14:00
Speaker 3: liked by, everyone but something that is like truly. Interesting
14:05
Speaker 3: AND i think That games accomplishes that in such like
14:07
Speaker 3: a massive. Way the big question kind of up top is,
14:11
Speaker 3: really why does it matter That alexander like Fled Soviet.
14:16
Speaker 3: Russia how is it that nation informs or shapes characterization and.
14:21
Speaker 2: Personality so With.
14:22
Speaker 7: Sasha, Alexander sasha is like The russian, diminutive SO i
14:25
Speaker 7: might use those. INTERCHANGEABLY i will try to stay strong With,
14:27
Speaker 7: alexander but for him it's the nuance very much of
14:30
Speaker 7: being like A Soviet, russian, Right AND i think those
14:32
Speaker 7: sometimes got mingled in people's, perceptions and obviously Like russia
14:36
Speaker 7: was the biggest element of The Soviet union in terms
14:38
Speaker 7: of like domination two of the. Republics BUT i emphasize
14:41
Speaker 7: that because that experience of having been part of that
14:44
Speaker 7: political and ideological, EXPERIMENT i, suppose and then having lived
14:48
Speaker 7: through its collapse led to this man, who as we
14:52
Speaker 7: see In, games he remade himself in such a way
14:55
Speaker 7: to become like palatable in The, west to be able
14:57
Speaker 7: to succeed and become like the neolbl capitalist monster That
15:01
Speaker 7: lily jokes. About AND i think that was a very
15:03
Speaker 7: specific experience of living through post collapse ussr but Also,
15:08
Speaker 7: russia things, were at least in the way some of
15:10
Speaker 7: my folks my family will, say and this can be,
15:12
Speaker 7: disputed things during the collapse were sometimes the worst In
15:16
Speaker 7: russia as it was, happening as opposed to some of
15:18
Speaker 7: the republics that had various different experiences that were also
15:21
Speaker 7: extremely difficult in their own. Rights but that experience living
15:24
Speaker 7: through that as like a very young, man and then
15:26
Speaker 7: emigrating and then immigrating it produced a person THAT i
15:30
Speaker 7: often think another man in the same situation could have
15:32
Speaker 7: ended up completely. Differently so while the russianness and The
15:35
Speaker 7: sovietism are the hugest influences on him by far alongside.
15:39
Speaker 7: Others it was how it was like refracted through that
15:41
Speaker 7: one man's journey that resulted in him in this specific
15:44
Speaker 7: story being someone That lily came up against and could
15:48
Speaker 7: not stay.
15:48
Speaker 3: Away from your point about like not to harp on
15:50
Speaker 3: the individual of, it but like the romantic, plot like
15:54
Speaker 3: even If games is a literary romance not technically, romance genre,
15:57
Speaker 3: fiction like romance as a story is interested in a
16:01
Speaker 3: specific kind of, scale, Right like the specificity of his
16:05
Speaker 3: formation and formulation is so key because any other man
16:11
Speaker 3: in that position is like absolutely not a romantic ideal
16:15
Speaker 3: by by like any.
16:18
Speaker 2: Like OR i don't know for, Me i'm, Speaking i'm
16:23
Speaker 2: not in.
16:23
Speaker 1: ALONG i agree with you for, Sure but he's, like.
16:25
Speaker 3: He's like singularly, appealing Right AND i think like romance
16:29
Speaker 3: in general has been interested in the Like russian, Hero
16:34
Speaker 3: like we're thinking about the like fever Around Ilia rosanov
16:38
Speaker 3: From Rachel Reid's He Did. Rivalry but also like other
16:41
Speaker 3: kinds of media are also showing an interest in like
16:44
Speaker 3: the development and characterization of like a specific kind Of
16:47
Speaker 3: russian personality characterized by.
16:49
Speaker 6: Like remoteness and assertiveness and, Independent like there's something about
16:55
Speaker 6: that positionality THAT i think is is really, appealing And
16:57
Speaker 6: i'm curious about how you think about the like romantic
17:01
Speaker 6: aspect of that in their.
17:03
Speaker 7: RELATIONSHIP i think For western audiences for decades and, decades
17:08
Speaker 7: even predating The Cold, war weep and subject did to
17:10
Speaker 7: this representation Of russians And Eastern Europeans broadway as like enemy, other,
17:15
Speaker 7: dangerous kind of, awkward cold unknown one of my biggest
17:19
Speaker 7: pet peeps In, hollywood and you still see this in
17:20
Speaker 7: like recent movies by amazing. DIRECTORS i have a, villain
17:23
Speaker 7: let's put An Eastern european accent in, that let's make Them,
17:25
Speaker 7: russian and it's so. Boring it like challenges, nothing it interrogates,
17:30
Speaker 7: nothing and that is like a, charge right that makes
17:33
Speaker 7: us a subject that has something there for people to.
17:35
Speaker 7: INVESTIGATE i always find the idea of like that cliche
17:40
Speaker 7: of like a very kind of, distant Gruff russian funny
17:42
Speaker 7: BECAUSE i Think russians are like some of the funniest
17:45
Speaker 7: people on the, planet with like a very dark specific,
17:47
Speaker 7: humor like very gallows. Humor BUT i always, find, YEAH
17:49
Speaker 7: i find that so such an interesting new, ones because
17:52
Speaker 7: that is something that gets reproduced a. Ton but that's
17:54
Speaker 7: sort of my take on what the charge is.
17:56
Speaker 3: There But i'm also thinking about, how Like alexander makes
17:59
Speaker 3: like purposeful choices to like adopt more of the Like
18:02
Speaker 3: British oxford trained, Accent like there are places where he
18:06
Speaker 3: like holds tight to his upbringing in his, background in
18:11
Speaker 3: other places where like he's so actively tussling with rejecting.
18:14
Speaker 3: It and, LIKE i think there's something there too of
18:18
Speaker 3: how our relationships with or character relationships with ethnicity and
18:23
Speaker 3: nationality are ever evolving and. Shifting And i'm curious about
18:28
Speaker 3: like your choice to capture that in, him as he
18:31
Speaker 3: is like maybe forced to articulate parts of his upbringing
18:34
Speaker 3: and background To lily in a way that he has
18:36
Speaker 3: never had to with anyone who wasn't there to witness that.
18:39
Speaker 7: Upbringing, YEAH i think two elements of that are that
18:43
Speaker 7: we See alexander only through the lens of this woman
18:48
Speaker 7: who he's opening up to in a way THAT i
18:50
Speaker 7: don't think he. HAS i know this sounds, cliche BUT
18:52
Speaker 7: i think to most of the people he works, with
18:54
Speaker 7: they'd Be he's. Funny what do you, Mean like that
18:57
Speaker 7: isn't accessiful to them at. All and SO i think
18:59
Speaker 7: that he's able to open up in that, way AND
19:01
Speaker 7: i reveal that humor to, her whether consciously or, unconsciously
19:04
Speaker 7: because around her there's a vulnerability that isn't accessible or
19:08
Speaker 7: safe or even desirous for him with. Others and who's to,
19:11
Speaker 7: say like what level that's conscious or. NOT i think
19:14
Speaker 7: if he's trying to lean into it more because you
19:16
Speaker 7: can see what will make her feel. SAFE i don't
19:18
Speaker 7: think he's operating on that. LEVEL i think he just.
19:20
Speaker 7: FEELS i hesitate to use the phrase in love with
19:23
Speaker 7: them for obvious, reasons because they refuse that so. Adamantly
19:27
Speaker 7: but who's to, say, like in that alchemy of thong
19:29
Speaker 7: in love with, somebody how much the like real use
19:31
Speaker 7: strains to get.
19:32
Speaker 3: Out there's something also about the fact, that like for historical,
19:36
Speaker 3: reasons for political, reasons like the country Of russia is
19:40
Speaker 3: like inaccessible To westerners in so many, ways, Right AND
19:44
Speaker 3: i think that element of secretiveness is part of the erotic,
19:49
Speaker 3: Appeal like some sense of his remove or, remoteness both
19:53
Speaker 3: because of age or because of, class or because of
19:57
Speaker 3: his background as A russian all contribute in a lot of.
20:01
Speaker 3: Ways to the like ambient feel of the, book and
20:05
Speaker 3: there's this flip side of like he is so open
20:08
Speaker 3: with her and that is also so romantically. Persuasive so
20:13
Speaker 3: there's like a tension between that THAT i think is really,
20:15
Speaker 3: Persuasive like maybe persuasive is the right word to.
20:19
Speaker 1: Me reading, THIS i could feel the influence Of russian
20:22
Speaker 1: literature and that sort of, legacy And i'm curious how you.
20:26
Speaker 1: Feel maybe inso much as there are Like russian romantic
20:29
Speaker 1: Heroes i'm thinking of like An Ana, karenina or like
20:32
Speaker 1: a situation like that is influencing How westerners might romanticize
20:37
Speaker 1: or View russians as.
20:38
Speaker 7: Well i'm not a huge Like tolstoy, fan full respect for,
20:42
Speaker 7: him BUT i was like subjected to war and peace in.
20:44
Speaker 7: University i'm much more of LIKE i love Cancer ward
20:48
Speaker 7: and Cancer. Ward The soljionisine is one of the reads
20:51
Speaker 7: is like it is a love story Between Colosta glotov
20:53
Speaker 7: and these two, women or him interacting the idea of
20:55
Speaker 7: if he can still love in that way after what
20:58
Speaker 7: he's been. THROUGH i Think, Russia i'm, generalizing but are
21:02
Speaker 7: deeply romantic people at one. Level this emphasis too that
21:07
Speaker 7: is sometimes like, stereotype BUT i think has real seeds
21:10
Speaker 7: of Like russian suffering and that's grappled with a little bitting.
21:15
Speaker 7: Games there's something romantic to that as. Well capital are.
21:18
Speaker 7: ROMANTIC i don't have the most coherent thought around what
21:22
Speaker 7: that literature has pulled through to the way that we
21:24
Speaker 7: See russians, today BUT i think there are elements of
21:26
Speaker 7: those threads for sure in how it all conspires to
21:30
Speaker 7: like these personalities or these personas as we as we
21:34
Speaker 7: see them based on the way they we're exposed to their.
21:36
Speaker 1: Literature, Yeah i'm thinking Of ilia in heated. Rivalry who
21:40
Speaker 1: is somebody who is quite maybe stoic from the outside
21:43
Speaker 1: or like hard to, crack but is this deeply fiercely,
21:45
Speaker 1: loyal very romantic person when you get to know. Them
21:48
Speaker 1: AND i feel like that is to me, anyway it
21:49
Speaker 1: seems like the stereotype of A russian lover that has
21:54
Speaker 1: sort of been inherited through that. Legacy, yeah as a.
21:57
Speaker 3: Challenging, task but CAN i say you who super duper
22:01
Speaker 3: extremely pulled it off and we had such a good
22:04
Speaker 3: time reading.
22:05
Speaker 1: IT i became a psycho reading this. BOOK i was,
22:07
Speaker 1: like no one talked to.
22:08
Speaker 5: Me, well thank, you so much for your time and
22:13
Speaker 5: like everything you had to, say this was so wonderful
22:15
Speaker 5: and like we couldn't have had this conversation with literally anybody,
22:18
Speaker 5: Else AND i so appreciate you And.
22:20
Speaker 4: Games, yes this is so much.
22:22
Speaker 5: For having me.
22:23
Speaker 1: ON i could have talked for hours with you. Two,
22:36
Speaker 1: OKAY i once again loved having that conversation With Anna
22:40
Speaker 1: maria just like one of the, smartest cheekiest people on this.
22:44
Speaker 1: Planet so, cool the, coolest devastatingly. So, so you, know
22:49
Speaker 1: it's the end of the. MONTH i figured we could
22:51
Speaker 1: do a little check in see what we've been consuming.
22:54
Speaker 4: Media wize m hm.
22:56
Speaker 1: Hm Obviously games was a big, one but all, SO
23:00
Speaker 1: i loved one of the epigraphs In games so much
23:04
Speaker 1: THAT i had to read the. Novel it Was Cancer.
23:07
Speaker 1: Ward actually you have the book now BECAUSE i passed
23:10
Speaker 1: it off to you By. Alexander it's something Extremely. Russian
23:14
Speaker 1: it's Extremely, russian AND i JUST i know THAT i
23:16
Speaker 1: Will i've immediately Forgotten.
23:18
Speaker 5: Souljannitsen sol And Alexander.
23:23
Speaker 1: Selainnitsen we'll, say we'll say That Cancer. Award it is
23:26
Speaker 1: a dense. Novel it is like five hundred some odd
23:29
Speaker 1: pages Of russian. Literature it is about a man in
23:34
Speaker 1: a cancer ward In Soviet russia and some of the
23:38
Speaker 1: other patients in this cancer ward and how they interact
23:41
Speaker 1: with each, other and the nurses and doctors at the cancer,
23:45
Speaker 1: ward and a lot of it is aleg oracle To Soviet.
23:48
Speaker 1: Russia it was a really fascinating. Read it was one
23:52
Speaker 1: of those things WHERE i sometimes get so frustrated by
23:56
Speaker 1: the constraints of only knowing a language and a, half
24:00
Speaker 1: BECAUSE i WHEN i read a, TRANSLATION i feel Like
24:04
Speaker 1: i'm missing a little bit of like a little bit
24:06
Speaker 1: of the original is. GONE i feel the same way
24:08
Speaker 1: When i'm watching a movie with like, subtitles like the
24:10
Speaker 1: subtitles aren't capturing every single thing that a movie like
24:14
Speaker 1: The dialogue has on. Offer and ALSO i feel like
24:19
Speaker 1: some of the historical sort of cultural references were probably
24:23
Speaker 1: lost on me a little, bit given That i'm not
24:24
Speaker 1: currently living in nineteen Fifty Soviet.
24:26
Speaker 4: Russia, however, SHOCKER.
24:29
Speaker 1: I, KNOW i, did, REALLY i really loved. IT i
24:33
Speaker 1: by the end was really touched by the, story like
24:36
Speaker 1: the epigraph and the. Spoiler the epigraph is at like
24:39
Speaker 1: basically the end of the book and having it lead
24:44
Speaker 1: up to that moment is just so poetic and it's
24:46
Speaker 1: so beautifully, done AND i really can't wait for you
24:50
Speaker 1: to read.
24:50
Speaker 2: It i'm really excited to read.
24:52
Speaker 3: It BUT i have to, ask did you also read
24:55
Speaker 3: anything joyful and romantic this?
24:57
Speaker 4: Month or was cancer ward Your pride so hard was my?
25:01
Speaker 1: PRIMARY i would read chunks of it and then move.
25:03
Speaker 1: On SO i did get to Read score And reel
25:07
Speaker 1: By Kennedy, ryan WHICH i read them back to back
25:10
Speaker 1: in like three. DAYS i was. OBSESSED i feel like
25:14
Speaker 1: knowing that they were going on at the same, time
25:16
Speaker 1: like having these storylines go on at the same, time
25:18
Speaker 1: and then getting to read them back to back and
25:19
Speaker 1: not having to wait was really helpful because Now i'm
25:22
Speaker 1: like champing at the bit for the third one And
25:24
Speaker 1: i'm going to have to wait so. Long who's doing?
25:26
Speaker 1: It Like Kennedy, ryan you, know like it's just so.
25:29
Speaker 4: Good she's so.
25:30
Speaker 1: Good she's so good at telling these love stories that
25:34
Speaker 1: feel so grounded and with people who are, experiencing you,
25:41
Speaker 1: know real life problems and issues and still falling in
25:45
Speaker 1: love and finding joy and finding the magic and making a,
25:48
Speaker 1: movie which like NOW i really want the, Movie like
25:51
Speaker 1: can we get the? Movie The Dessy blue movie tie
25:53
Speaker 1: in for The Kennedy Ryan score, Series so that was.
25:58
Speaker 1: GOOD i read my Friend Gabrielle korn has a book
26:02
Speaker 1: coming out this month Called Long Island, girls which was
26:06
Speaker 1: mildly traumatic for me to read because it's about a
26:09
Speaker 1: millennial girl in the late aunts who moves To New
26:12
Speaker 1: york and starts working in.
26:13
Speaker 4: Media seems.
26:15
Speaker 1: Familiar HiT's maybe too close to home, sometimes but it's really.
26:21
Speaker 1: Good these two girls who keep meeting at well girls
26:24
Speaker 1: and then women who keep meeting each other at different
26:26
Speaker 1: points in their, lives and they have this chemistry together
26:30
Speaker 1: and how they intertwine and then break apart. Again so
26:34
Speaker 1: that was really. Good AND i Read mary Hk Choi's,
26:36
Speaker 1: poolhouse which is her adult debut uh, huh WHICH i really.
26:41
Speaker 1: LOVED i don't know THAT i would say it was.
26:42
Speaker 1: Joyful i'm realizing that common thread here is a lot of.
26:45
Speaker 1: SUFFERING i was kinda. RIGHT i just Love mary's. Writing
26:49
Speaker 1: she has a way of making these really incisive observations
26:54
Speaker 1: about her characters that are like literally laugh out loud
26:56
Speaker 1: funny and so immediately. Telling and it's like one sentence
26:59
Speaker 1: about something like a fashion brand of character is, wearing
27:03
Speaker 1: or a way that they move their body or away
27:06
Speaker 1: that they have.
27:06
Speaker 4: Sex with each.
27:07
Speaker 1: Other this is her first adult novel THAT i just loved.
27:10
Speaker 1: READING i love reading her, writing so it was joyful
27:12
Speaker 1: in that. SENSE i actually been doing a lot of reading.
27:15
Speaker 1: LATELY i Read speaking Of Age. GAPS i Read Alicia
27:18
Speaker 1: thompson's book THAT I think just came, out which is
27:22
Speaker 1: Called In Every Possible, way which follows a thirty something
27:26
Speaker 1: year old woman who goes on a really terrible first
27:29
Speaker 1: date on her birthday and on her way out of the,
27:32
Speaker 1: restaurant knowing that this date isn't going, well gets, mugged
27:37
Speaker 1: knocked out and wakes up.
27:38
Speaker 3: In ireland, sorry and happens to be In ireland with
27:43
Speaker 3: her terrible dates younger. Brother like it's a magical realist
27:47
Speaker 3: sort of ye, frame and the whole novel feels like
27:52
Speaker 3: a cross Between Before sunrise And leapier no more.
27:56
Speaker 4: References oh, YEAH i Was Before.
27:58
Speaker 1: Sunrise i'm like immediately locked.
28:00
Speaker 2: In he's younger by a few.
28:01
Speaker 3: Years he's a, mechanic he spent some time in, prison
28:04
Speaker 3: AND i think has a lot of feelings about. That
28:08
Speaker 3: she has been like looking for the magic in relationships
28:11
Speaker 3: her whole life and has like not found. It and
28:15
Speaker 3: the thing About Alicia thompson is that she is so
28:17
Speaker 3: capable of producing this moment of total melancholy THAT i
28:24
Speaker 3: think is so moving in a romance. Novel these two
28:27
Speaker 3: people who are so alone in the world with everyone,
28:31
Speaker 3: else but feel with other people when they are. Together
28:35
Speaker 3: that doesn't have to be the frame of every romance,
28:37
Speaker 3: novel but reading it in, HERS i think is so
28:39
Speaker 3: beautiful to, me AND i was very moved by. IT
28:42
Speaker 3: i would highly RECOMMEND i also Read Sophia ben was
28:47
Speaker 3: the very definition of, love which is her forthcoming his.
28:50
Speaker 1: Dying to read. That you, KNOW i am like dying
28:53
Speaker 1: to read.
28:53
Speaker 4: THIS i think you were really gonna like.
28:55
Speaker 3: IT i was very pleased with it as a debut
28:59
Speaker 3: historical and, like we're in a time where people are
29:01
Speaker 3: not really buying what we're publishing historical, romances which is
29:05
Speaker 3: so sad for me personally as someone who grew up
29:08
Speaker 3: on them and loves them so. Dearly BUT i Think,
29:10
Speaker 3: sophia who IS i think also a, comedian has such
29:14
Speaker 3: like a sharp sense of wit and, humor and historical
29:18
Speaker 3: is the genre of wit and, humor AND i think
29:20
Speaker 3: she Really masters that AND i was quite pleased with
29:24
Speaker 3: that as. Well i've read a few arcs and THEN
29:28
Speaker 3: i also Read The Paris match By Kate, Claiborne, oh.
29:31
Speaker 1: Which was loved that so. Good it was so. GOOD
29:35
Speaker 1: i loved that so much that one felt like a
29:38
Speaker 1: historical like wrapped in a contemporary. Right.
29:43
Speaker 3: Yeah it follows this woman who goes to her ex
29:46
Speaker 3: husband's younger sister's wedding because she and the younger sister
29:49
Speaker 3: have like a really sisterly, relationship and she finds it
29:54
Speaker 3: very important to be there for, family even though she's
29:56
Speaker 3: not technically a part of this family, anymore and is
29:58
Speaker 3: like basically preparing to endure ritual humiliation by being at
30:01
Speaker 3: this wedding and is determined to be as unobtrusive and
30:05
Speaker 3: offensive at this wedding as, possible and immediately she butts
30:08
Speaker 3: heads with the groom's best, friend the best Man, griffin
30:11
Speaker 3: who sees the performance that the main character is putting
30:15
Speaker 3: on and is, like, YEAH i see right through, that
30:18
Speaker 3: which is catnip for me as a. Romance Per, okay
30:21
Speaker 3: my last thing That i've been, CONSUMING i promise and
30:23
Speaker 3: That i'll be. Done whitney my, love which is an
30:26
Speaker 3: iconic historical. ROMANCE i can't believe it took me that.
30:29
Speaker 3: Long it's By judith, mcnott who is one of the
30:32
Speaker 3: greats in romance. History that book is. Diabolical it is.
30:37
Speaker 3: Insane it is also an age, gap but for some
30:40
Speaker 3: reason people don't seem to catch age.
30:41
Speaker 2: Gap is age gap when it's? Historical what is that?
30:43
Speaker 3: ABOUT i think they're just, like of course old men
30:45
Speaker 3: were marrying young. Women but he's this duke who sets
30:48
Speaker 3: his eyes on this like young debutante who.
30:52
Speaker 2: Is like very.
30:52
Speaker 3: Vivacious it's a very controversial book for many. Reasons AND
30:55
Speaker 3: i will leave you well to research that on your.
30:58
Speaker 1: Own and Now i'm adding it in my list for next.
31:00
Speaker 1: Month it might make you, miserable and that's HOW i
31:03
Speaker 1: felt at least reading. It but if it wasn't clear
31:05
Speaker 1: from everything THAT i consumed this, MONTH i actually enjoy
31:07
Speaker 1: being made, miserable like just so.
31:09
Speaker 4: Little, yeah actually real and sign.
31:12
Speaker 1: Me there are two wolves and.
31:14
Speaker 4: Signe you there are two, wolves Cancer.
31:16
Speaker 3: Ward Cancer ward And Tessa bailey And Tessa bailey those
31:21
Speaker 3: are the.
31:22
Speaker 1: Wolves and you know, WHAT i, think that's the.
31:25
Speaker 4: Show that's, it that's the.
31:26
Speaker 1: Show call us and leave us a voicemail with your
31:32
Speaker 1: thoughts at eight three three eight three to. One love
31:36
Speaker 1: that's eight three three eight three one five six eight
31:39
Speaker 1: Three if you fell hard for what you heard, here
31:42
Speaker 1: get episode notes delivered straight to your inbox by signing
31:45
Speaker 1: up at eight through one stories dot substack dot com
31:49
Speaker 1: and share your recommendations and topic ideas in the post.
31:51
Speaker 1: Comments head to eight three one stories dot com to
31:54
Speaker 1: keep up with eight three ones monthly read in one
31:57
Speaker 1: sitting romance, novellas and sign up for a month membership
32:00
Speaker 1: to The ones to get your hands on them before anyone.
32:02
Speaker 1: Else The ones also get a twenty percent discount on
32:05
Speaker 1: everything on the, site including eight three one's beloved tropats
32:09
Speaker 1: and pleasure reading. Merch The radio eight three one podcast
32:12
Speaker 1: is a production Of iHeart, podcasts hosted By sanjanabascar And tyler.
32:17
Speaker 1: McCall the show is produced By Liz smith and For.
32:20
Speaker 1: iHeart our supervising producer Is Emily meronoff special thanks to
32:24
Speaker 1: the Whole iHeart team and Especially Ali perry And Alison Kanter.
32:28
Speaker 1: Graber our executive producers Are Claire maser And Erica. Cerulo
32:32
Speaker 1: our music Is domino By James Ryan carr And Love
32:35
Speaker 1: Is What You do By. Alibi we'll be sharing love
32:38
Speaker 1: here again next week