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CLASSIC: Idiomatic For The People, Part I · Ridiculous History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Fellow Ridiculous historians. This classic episode has an unexpected gift.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: It's a special guest, longtime friend of the show, our
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: pal Rowan Newby. Yeah.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Speaking of Rowan Newby, he doesn't do the podcast pitches anymore.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: But a record that he and I made together that
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: took us many, many years, just came out. It's on
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Spotify Rowan Neuby. It's called some Hippie You Turned Out
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: to Be. And the record just got picked up by
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: our cool indie label out of Philly called Perpetual Doom.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: So do check it out. I think there's gonna be
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: physical versions coming soon.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you guys did phenomenal work on that. We
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: talked about that a little bit off air. I love
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: oh that lonely song, Once You've Been Lonely, Once You've
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Been Lonely. That's a banger. Check it out and no'll
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: do please save me a vinyl.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, but maybe Perpetual Doom will be putting it out
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: in that format.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: And so in this episode, which is part of a
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: on and off continuing.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Series, mainly off, but man, it's reminding us. I think
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: we should bring it back.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: We should bring it back. We had ruin with us.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: We also later, I think in this series, we talked
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: to longtime friend of the show, our brother in arms,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Frank Malheran.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: About crack, not like the drug, the word the Irish parlance.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, cr ai c. So we got interested in the
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: idea of idioms and favorite turns of phrases. We can't
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: wait for you to hear this one, folks, and get
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: to your podcast platform of choice as you're listening, and
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: let us know any turns of phrases that we unintentionally
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: used without exploring the etymology thereof.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and Apaulo is all about this.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: If you can hear a little barkie boy in the background,
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: he's excited for some idiomatic for the people.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Part one, Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. It's
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: often said that, how do you say it? A podcast
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: in one hand is worth two in the bush, or
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: you can take a podcast to water, but you can't
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: make it stream, you.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Can't teach an old podcast new tricks, or can you.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Don't look at gift podcaster in the mouth. These may
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: not be the exact verbatim figures of speech or turns
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: of phrase, but by gosh, by golly, by gum, those
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: things are fascinating nonetheless, right.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm Ben, Hi, I'm Noel, and this is ridiculous history.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Oh yes, we should tell people the name of the show.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: We are a company, of course, as always with our
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: super producer Casey Pegram. Give them a hand if you're
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: not driving. And this is a very special episode for
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: us NOL. It's true we are exploring some strange dare
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: I say, ridiculous idioms and figures of speech. But we
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: are not embarking on this journey alone, my friend. Oh no,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: we have joined forces with a good friend of ours,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: friend of the show, podcaster, producer, musician.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Just regular you know, all around jack of all trades,
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: renaissance man.
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: You can't hear.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: This, but I'm blushing right now, really ridiculous historians. Rowan, newbie,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show man.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. Rowan, that's
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: your real name. Yeah, it's another here.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: Nor There has a fantastic podcast called Pitches, where in
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: various entertaining comedic people, smart people, funny people come on
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: and pitch pretty horrible ideas for product or films or
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: books or really anything that would require a pitch to
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: try and sell.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: Is that right? I couldn't have said it better myself.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Well, terrible ideas right there?
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: Maybe unorthodox, they're unorthodox, Okay, that's fair.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: Sometimes it's almost scary when we stumble upon a good
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: idea because we don't know what to do. There's off
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: we're like, uh, no, go, you know, let's cut this.
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: You quickly copyright and we'll save this episode or something.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Browan was kind enough to have me on as a
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: guest of a very early episode of the show, and
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: we kind of stumbled upon a reality show idea for
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: like masked performers, and it was more in the DJ space.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: But then the other day we looked at the TV
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: and now there's the masked singer Lo and behold Low
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: and behold parallel thinking at its finest is low and
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: behold the name of the artist.
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: That's a good idea. It would be with zeros though.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, naturally, And it's weird how quickly that
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: that idea just evolved. Right. One of the things that
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: we're we we explore often here on Ridiculous History will
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: be the strange turns of phrases that emerge, especially in English,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: but in all languages over the unending game of telephone
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: that we call history. Right, there are some weird ones.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have ever seen those
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: great compilation articles about phrases in other languages that just
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: don't translate, you know, like things that make sense in Turkish,
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: for instance, but not English. It turns out that our
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: language has a ton of those, and today we combined
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: our forces to explore a few that captivated us, and
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: to do our darnedest, since we're family show, to discover
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: the origin behind these phrases. Right, this is the right
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: episode for that.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: It is, and I think it's actually a repeatable model.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: I think if this goes well, we could maybe do
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: some more of these. My dear friend, your dear friend,
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: Rowan's dear friend, Frank actually came up with a great
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: name for the segment, or this type of show. We
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: could call it Idiomatic for the People, Hey like as
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: a nod to Georgia Boys Rim and their seminal album
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: Automatic for the People. I had a little bit more
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: of a self deprecating name, which would be idiots on Idioms.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: I think you know what. I like both of those.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: I like both of those. I did not prepare a
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: name for this segment.
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: For sure, there's music in both of them.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: It's true, there we go. But what So we decided
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: to do this episode and then we split apart and
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: solo style, gave ourselves some homework, and the one of
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: the conversations we had was about whether we should let
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: each other know in advance which idioms we're bringing the table,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: or whether we should surprise one another.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: I think it's a mixed bag, right, It's a mixed bag,
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: and I know some of them, and then on some
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: of them I don't know, and I'm excited for all
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: of them.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Actually, without further ado, gentlemen, what do you say, who
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: shall be the first to cast their word hat into
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: the word ring?
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: Well, Ben, I meant you didn't let us know any
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: of yours, so I'm kind of on the edge of
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: my seat. Do you mind going first with one of
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: your choices?
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Sure? Absolutely. There is a phrase that is very common
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: even nowadays, and it is something that should be familiar,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: I think to all native English speakers, regardless of the
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: country and which you live. It's something ruin that you
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: and I have said before in casual conversation. It is
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: to butter someone up. Oh, stop buttering me up. Noel,
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: you and I have used this as well.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it always kind of weirds me out a
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: little bit because it makes me think of, you know,
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: covering someone in delicious.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: Spreadable butter.
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: I mean, if you're friends with someone who's you know,
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: maybe a dinner roll, or you're friends with a turkey
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: maybe you know, I don't know, baste me.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, please, it's implying a very intimate form of physical contact.
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: So it's strange because we use this phrase and we
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: all know roughly what it means. Flattery, right, maybe a
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: little bit of somewhere between flattery and pandering. This is
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: actually an ancient concept. I had no idea because a
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: lot of phrases, oddly enough, in English come from things
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: like the Bible or translations of it, or they come
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: from wars. However, to butter me up has a couple
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: of different proposed origins, and one of the most solid
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: or most widely accepted traces its origins back to ancient India. Huh,
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: which I did not see coming. So we're talking about
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: gee here, we were talking about gee. Yes, well done,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: clarified butter clarified.
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: Gee.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: So here's what would happen, guys. The idea is that
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: in ancient India, people would lob small balls of butter
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: of gee butter at statue use of various gods while
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: asking them for favors. It's kind of an inducement, the
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: same way that in some other religions you would offer
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: a favored treat of a god as a tribute. So
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: like cigars or alcoholic beverages or coins.
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: You know, blood of an infant, food, the skull.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: Of an enemy or a loved one. You know, there's
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: a lot of various So butter is largely innocuous in
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: this idea, And in Tibet there's an even older custom
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: of crafting butter sculptures when the new year rolls around.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: The sculptures are viewed as a way of bringing happiness
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: and peace in the coming year. So when we say
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: that we're buttering someone up, we are implying that either
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: they we are making them a statue every year, or
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: that we are giving them an offering in a transactional
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: way because we want their favor. So the meaning of
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: the meaning of this has become less blatant over time,
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: and now it just means be nice to someone, but
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: still I would argue with a soft implication soft and buttery,
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: that there is something expected in return. Yeah, so it's
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: like paying tribute, right, I mean because also I would
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: imagine we've done episodes in the past about how butter
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: was a very hot commodity, right, Yeah, Margarine versus butter
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: was a big thing too, but I think you're talking
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: about an older period of time, right, Yeah.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: And it was also the one about the Protestant Reformation
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: about how those butter indulgences were such a thing because
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: it really pointed to the fact that, you know, the
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: powers that be didn't actually care about good works and
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: being pious. It was more just a way of like
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: depriving people of things and giving the rich what they
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: wanted as long as they could pay for it. So
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: it's interesting butter has always been kind of a divisive
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: and tasty.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Treat, even as recently as the eighteen seventies, right, because
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: there was the law about how Margarine had to be
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: dyed pink so that people would know it was not
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: true butter that I think Wisconsin was one of the
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: last holdouts for that. But yes, that's it, So butter
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: me up the next time you want to be one
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: of those. Actually, people, in a conversation at a cocktail
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: party or a soiree of your choosing, come armed with
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: that information and butter someone up by saying, I'm sure
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: that you already know the etymology of to butter someone up, but.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Here it is, I would ever do that. Nobody listens
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: to the show or anyone sitting in the room would
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: ever do it? Actually would you? Anyone butters what now?
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: And actually you would never go like, actually, you know.
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't do it on purpose. I've been accused of
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: doing the glasses up the nose thing, but it's always
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: with a you take it with a grain of.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: Salt, that's true, or a slap a ball of butter.
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: With a ball of butter. You know.
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: I think it's interesting, though, that you're really leaning into
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: it being a mostly nice thing. I take buttering someone
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: up as definitely wanting something and as manipulative. Kind of right,
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: buttering someone up I always just read as like, because
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: when someone's like, why are you buttering me up?
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: You know that tone implicates that it's ingenuous, right.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of gee whiz, or like this is not
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: when I was I don't believe this is when we today.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: But it's sort of akin to blowing smoke up someone's
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: back sss, right.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Which I wonder since we can speculate on that when
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: I wonder whether that has anything to do with uh
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Kellogg and his overwhelming love of what he thought were
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: medicinal enemas, including tobacco smoke. Is that right? Oh? Yeah,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: it's all about enemas.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: I knew he's about animas, but I didn't know that
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: smoke was was in the equation tobacco water.
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: Weird, weird, true of the state.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: There we go, So what's what's next? We've cracked the case.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: I'm buttering someone up.
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: Well, I had one question.
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: Yes, they make so you're saying they made statues in
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: India of.
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: Their gods. I'm just searching for a genesh joke.
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: Somewhere in there there's an I guess that's found.
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: I'm really sorry.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: No, you forget this is what kind of we have
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: been accused of absolute dependence on dad jokes.
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: So it's totally totally.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Part of wes I have come to the right place. Yes,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: welcome home, we have. I would have been lauded for
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: uh the our attempts at humor.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: Lolded potato potato.
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: My friends, are you saying that you get like listeners,
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: writing YouTube comments, being.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Likes enough with the dead jokes? Okay, well not on YouTube,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: but on iTunes. Is it is a terrible place. Don't
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: ever go don't ever read the iTunes.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: I get more emails and tweets and stuff like. Life
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: was hopeless until you guys did that run of puns.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: Thank you. There's there's a light at the end of
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: the tunnel.
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: Our famous pun run. Oh I heard about that. Yeah,
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: the charity twenty twelve famous pun run.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, classic things will never be How is you guys
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: had no idea? Well we had luchador mask on. Oh,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: it's part of it. That's sexy. Well it seemed like
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: a good idea of time, and now it's tradition and
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: we were bound by that.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: We are nothing if not fans of tradition.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: So same is.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: So what what's next? What's next?
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: Tuesday? I don't know who wants to go next? You
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: want to go next?
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Sir?
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: And Newby? Yeah, okay.
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: The first one I'm going to talk about is nipp
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: it in the butt.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: Nip it in the butt?
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: Come on, folks, we know what that means, or if
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: we don't we at least have used it and thought
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: that makes sense. Technically, it's a horticultural metaphor alluding to
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: putting a stop to something, uh, in its early stages,
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: before it becomes you know, negative.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: Before it grows out of metastasizes and takes over your
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: entire garden.
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: Right, And it's derived from like debudding of plants and
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: the whole horticulture thing, because you cut the top then
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: can't grow into a beautiful fruit.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: So when you say it, it sounds to me like
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: whenever people use that, it's almost like a bit of
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: a tongue in cheek way of trying to sound southern,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: kind of like just nip it in the butt.
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: It is.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: I feel very particularly Southern.
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: Actually, I remember first hearing it from Barney Fife in
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: you know and the Grit of the show.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: That's that's strange because I would also assume, if I'm
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: overthinking this that in the original horticultural sense, it's still
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: it doesn't kill the plant the root.
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: Still No, it does not kill the plant. It just
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: stops it before it can reach its you know, flowery climax.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, So somebody, as for instance, say collecting way too many.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: What's a weird thing for someone to collect tails? Tails?
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: They're collecting too many tails? T Ai aill. Okay, they're
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: collecting too many tails. And they say, okay, fourteen is enough.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: It's getting weird. I'm going to nip it in the bud.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: But that means they're not necessarily going to get rid
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: of the other fourteenth.
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: That's they're just nipping their weird tail collection in the
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: bud before people start calling that person, you know, the
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: tail freak of of Cincinnati. Now it's interesting freak.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: There's actually even another version of this that is nip
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: it in the bloom, and it was first cited in
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: a work by Henry Chettel in a book called a
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: romance book called peers Plans seven Years Apprenticeship. I'm guessing
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: that's Old English. It's a p I E r A
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: s p l A. I almost sound in French for
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: a second, but then it's got years spelled y E
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: r E s, which is very Canterbury tail is if
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: you ask me, And that's from fifteen ninety five. Who
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: that doesn't quite add up to Old English, though, does it?
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: Guys?
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: I also found that this is one of those idioms
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: that people tend to mispronounce or misunderstand. There are a
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: lot of people will see now, oh.
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: I already know what they think it is. They think
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: it's nip it in the butt? Is that what you
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: were going to say? Yes, you're correct, right, yeah, which
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: is ridiculous. What would what would nip it in the
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: butt mean?
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: What would that mean?
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Just give it a little bite, a little tweak, yeah,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: a little love bite.
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Okay, So so I was actually wrong in terms of
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Chettle was actually a contemporary of Christopher Marlowe, who was
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: like a contemporary of William Shakespeare. So the old English
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: talk kind of that that does hold true. But I
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: believe the cannabray tails were a little earlier than that.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: But it does feel like right in that in line
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: with that, and that's where it first came from, which
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: is I didn't know either. But I'm just I'm just
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: googling away right now as we talk about this, because
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: you've you got mom.
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: I literally I literally didn't take that note because I
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: couldn't pronounce any of those words. Just so you know,
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: I also found that all.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: Well, no, that's the thing though, I just want you
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: to to be very comfortable. A big part of this
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: show is the fact that we don't try that hard
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: to pronounce things correctly.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Other than wonder yes, because we do have We don't
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: want to be vague about this, We want to be specific.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: We we have a francophone and our super producer, Wonderful,
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: he will he will handle a lot of the French
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: for us.
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: That's also because the French are the most judging.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Well, occasionally, it's because occasionally he'll he'll do it with
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: some reluctance, because we have just sprang it on him
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: and said, hey, Casey, here's a paragraph of French. Could
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: you just translate this for us?
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but he you know, he understands the game and
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: he is he is taken to it over time, and
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: now he doesn't even make a face anymore when we
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: ask him to help us.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Pronounce it takes a face on the inside.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: As long as I don't see it.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: He is a he is a champion.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Among that, I also feel like it's largely about yeah,
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: you're totally right, like getting rid of the early stages
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: of something so doesn't become something worse. But usually it's
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: about a problem right, or it's about like a person
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: it's like, we're gonna nip this in the bu We're
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: gonna like sort out this disagreement now before it gets
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: out of control and everything gets blown out of proportion.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: That seems to be the way that I'm familiar with
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: it being.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Now, now I'm increasingly a fan, and thank
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: you for this rowin of uh nip it in the butt.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: I am just gonna see you've just been sitting over there,
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: how long I can pull that off in normal conversation
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: before someone.
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: They do, but they do the finger wag and the
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: glasses and they go.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Actually, it's the butt. And I learned that from roun
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: Nubye on Ridiculous History.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: I'll say, you know, I I co founded a host
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: that show, and then and they'll say who are you?
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: And I will, naturally, of course, as I always do
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: it in airport, say my name is Casey Pegram and
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: then proceeds to wage mayhem across the terminal, but well,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: nipping it in the butt aside. Uh, this is I
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: think this is a I've learning a lot. I don't
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: know about you, guys.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Every day is a shiny new penny. As our cohort
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Holly fod I likes to.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: Say, and every day is a winding road.
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: As Cheryl Crow once said, It's true only once though,
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: Well I don't know that that song was pretty hot.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: No, I mean she did it in one tech you
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: think so? No?
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: Is that true? This is also lies about Cheryl Crow podcast. Yeah,
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: watch out, she listens to this show regular No.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: She is also notorious heltigious, yes, incredibly touchy right, sorry,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: and pedantic, Cheryl.
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: I'm just rasing you. I'm just nipping you in the butt.
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: All of our iTunes reviews that are not favorable are
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: in fact written by Cheryl Crow.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: She has like a clip farm, like in somewhere in
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: you know, Taiwan, where it's just like fifty young children
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: just writing mean reviews about ridiculous history.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: It's where most of her royalties have gone. Actually, she's
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: put a lot of time in this, have to.
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: So most of your streams too, are from her click farm.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Yes, gosh, but you know you've made it when you
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: have like a true nemesis. And what better nemesis to
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: have than the multi Grammy award winning artist like Sheryl Crow.
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you guys, you made this. Yeah, it's made it.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: I've made it.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: We're all holding hands right now, by the way, and
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: we it might sound like we're joking, but I want
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: to be completely sincere. I would like to confess something
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: about my personal life. As a child, I had a dream,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: a recurring dream, where the violinist of Dave Matthew's band
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: hated me somehow knew who I was and despised me.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: And eventually I thought, maybe that's maybe that's correct, maybe not,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: just like I didn't think specifically of a nemesis, but
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: I thought, man, it would be amazing if I had
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: a celebrity, not a huge, huge celebrity, but someone who
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: was a celebrity who just knew me and intensely and
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: publicly didn't care for my whole life.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: How did this manifest hself? Did he swat you with
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: his bow?
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: In the dream, which was a recurring dream, again, I
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: would go to a concert, a Dave Matthews concerts when
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: they were pretty big.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: How you knew it was a dream because you never
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: go to a Dave Matthews concerts.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: Some dream logic there my friends.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: And I was, I was in the I was in
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: the concert. I was inevitably on a date. The person
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: I was dating would change because I had this dream
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: over a number of years. And then at some point
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: in the concert when they paused between songs, the violinist
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: of Dave Matthews group would come up and say, uh,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: I know Ben Bolan is in the crowd tonight and
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: say horrible, horrible stuff about me. This is a true story.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: And I used to think it meant that I was
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: destined to go to a Dave Matthews concert, but I
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: have not done.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: So I have an alternate theory. Well, first of all,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: I inexplicably know that the violinist for Dave Matthews band's
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: name is Boyd Tinsley.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: Wow, and he passed away.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: He did pass well? No, I think he actually just
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: got kicked out of the band because it turns out
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: he was not a good guy. I think he was
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: accused of some sexual harassment and and he got fired.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Oh man, I might, in some incredibly useless way be
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: capable of precognitive dreams.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: Possible.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: I think that that Boyd Tinsley of the day of
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Matthew's band represented your inner insecurity's been and it manifested
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: its front of God and everyone and and and you
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: had to contend with that night after night after night
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: like some kind of fresh personal hell.
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: Plus you went on. You were saying there was always
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: dates and that the girl changed that for the time.
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: It's probably because you were taking her to Dave Matthews
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: con never saw you again. What are you doing?
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: For the record? I believe it was Leroy Moore who
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: actually passed away. And the clarinets all right, and so
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: so back to the subject of the podcast. Thank you
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: for joining me on that strange dream journey. Guys, I
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: hope I don't have that dream again in or how
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: long has it been It has been at lee at
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: least a decade.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: Then you're cured.
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: We say that now there's really only two outcomes here.
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: One that you start having that dream again horribly in abundance,
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: or you never have it again because you've finally gotten
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: this off your chest and now.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: You're you're safe.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: What would be the modern day equivalent of the violinist
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: for Dave Matthews Band. I know they're still around, but
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: would it be.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: John Mayor of Dave Matthews Band, there you go, or
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: anybody in Coldplay aside from the main guy.
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, are you saying like the equivalent meaning another violinist.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Another sort of ancillary player and like a very like
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: contemporary giant, uber popular jam band who might possibly start
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: appearing in Ben's dreams and talking smack dam.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: We may have cursed, we may have cursed me. It
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: may just be Sheryl Crow.
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: I was gonna say the guitarist for like regigainst the
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: Machine or Slash, you know, one of those like vice
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: presidents of the band essentially where they're as famous but
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: not really. You know, you'll just all of them will
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: meet you, like uh at a dinner table. It will
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: be Slash, Keith Richards.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: You know it's not you guys, I will carry Oh
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: no what, We will have your back, sir, We will.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: We will fight off this horde of trash talking.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: Dream villains, weird bad band dream villains. But hey, we
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: should probably nip this in the buzz. And here from
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: nol my turn.
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: Pretty good? All right, that was pretty good.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: It was absolutely proper use of that expression. And now
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: we actually know know a little bit more about where
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: it comes from. So here's mine. The funny thing about
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: a lot of these phrases is out of context. Like you,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: you get so used to hearing them that you never
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: even think about what the words even really mean, right, I.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: Think that's a big part of this.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: So for me it was basket case, right, So I
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: we all know how basket cases you just referring to
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: someone that doesn't have their their life together. It's like
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: having a crisis or whatever you're saying or you can
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: say about yourself. It's like, oh, I'm such a basket
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: case today, nothing's going right for me. Disorganized, but more specifically,
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: it's like more of having like a bit of a
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: mental health break down. I think we can all remember
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: the seminole I've been using that word a lot in
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: this episode today, but I'm going to keep rolling with it.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Nineteen nineties Green Day song basket Case, where he talks
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: about how, you know, he gives himself the creeps, his
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: mind plays tricks on him.
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: He's cracking up.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: He thinks he's had enough, he's paranoid, or he might
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: just be stoned. But he's having a hard time Billy
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Joe Armstrong in his faux British accent.
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: And he's having a really hard.
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: Time that he is just he is just rolling the back.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he really has.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: So here's the problem that I had when I started
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: really thinking about before doing the research about basket case,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: I think of the word case, and I think of
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: it as like a like a suitcase. So I'm like,
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: but isn't a basket already a case for things? Sure,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: it's sort of a wicker case, right, it's a basket,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: saying ATM machine. So when I thought it's a little redundant,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: so I thought, maybe it just meant a useless thing
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: or a redundant, silly, ridiculous thing. Who needs a case
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: for a basket? A basket's already its own case. It's
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: like having a bag for a bag.
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: A waste.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: Turns out nothing to do with any of that, Absolutely
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: nothing to do with any of that. The origins of
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: the term basket case date back to nineteen nineteen during
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: World War One, and it was a term that was
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: used to describe a particularly brutal type of wound or
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: series of wounds experienced.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: By soldiers, the.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: Dreaded quadruple amputation.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: I think rember the quadruple amputation.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: So you've lost your arms and your legs and are
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: therefore in need of being carried around in a basket. Therefore,
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: you are a basket case. And it of course is
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: morphed over time, and we'll get to that.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: But here's the thing.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: It actually has been consistently denied by army officials that
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: there ever were any basket cases. So here's the thing.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Early in World War One, well, and it goes on,
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: so the Surgeon General of the Army in nineteen nineteen,
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: the United States Surgeon General, said that there were no
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: foundation for any of the stories that have been circulated
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: because this term kind of had been making the rounds.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: And he uses the term basket case to describe a
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: thing that he says doesn't exist. So he acknowledges the
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: term in its existence, but he says, but there are
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: no such cases as would be required to be carried
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: in baskets.
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: Right, So it's a paradox.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: It's a bit of a paradox. But then you know,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: we've got World War Two and the term kind of
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: stuck around in the zeitgeist, and yet again Surgeon General
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: in nineteen forty four says, quote, there is nothing to
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: rumors of so called basket cases, and then goes on
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: to say cases of men with both arms and legs amputated.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: So here's the interesting part. Apparently there was a case
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: of a Canadian soldier that is pretty well documented who
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: did experience quadruple amputations, but he actually went on to
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: lead a very productive life, and he was fitted with
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: prosthetic legs and even had a prosthetic arm fitted to
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: him that allowed him to be able to write and
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: lived a very normal and productive life. And this comes
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: from a fantastic article on grammarphobia dot com that refers
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: to the basket case myth.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: So obviously the term evolved over.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Time and became much more of an expression referring to
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: mental health and someone who, as we said at the top,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: is experiencing trauma or anxiety or having some kind of breakdown. Right, So,
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: after World War Two, the term stopped being used to
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: refer to these kind of imaginary basket cases because there
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: was really no proof of them ever having existed. But
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: considering I don't know, Ben, you're a bit of a
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: war historian yourself in terms of your interests, can't you
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: imagine that there must have been at least a handful
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: of cases where someone had been injured so badly by
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: explosions that they may have had to happen. It doesn't
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: it seem a little fishy? This official line was like,
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: this never happened.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Well, here's the grizzly thing. It probably did happen, but
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: people's odds of surviving that that's the lower.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's why the Canadian case was noteworthy.
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: That's a good point.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: But that's an extraordinary story, man, Yeah it is.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: And then somehow it just kind of, like things do,
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: evolved to a completely different meaning entirely because of the
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: fact that these cases didn't exist. But the term was
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: still floating around in that zeitgeist. People kind of started
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: adapting it and referring to people that didn't have their
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: act together. But then it's still it's still used today.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: And the interesting thing is, obviously is a little bit
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: of a in poor taste kind of term. No matter
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: how you use it, right, it's a pejorative, especially if
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: you're talking about any person with a disability, and then
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: when you apply it to somebody that's having trouble psychologically,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: that's also not very nice. So it's actually become more
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: in style to use it to refer to things and
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: nations as opposed to people. And there's a really interesting
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: article in The Guardian, I think it was a letter
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: to the editor, and it's called basket case the case
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: against and it talks about how it is just lazy
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: writing and it should not be used, and that then
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: it goes in cites how often it is used. So
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: apparently the Sun in the UK thinks that Greece, Zimbabwees
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: and Spain are basket cases, and that Prince William could
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: have been one, but then he married Kate Middleton, so
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: now he's okay, he's not a basket case. And then
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: you've got the Times that believes Greece and Argentina are
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: basque cases.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: Africa once was, but now isn't.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: They now refer to it as a bread basket. And
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: then they also talk about particular governments that are basket cases.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: Companies too, companies that are basket cases.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: And this writer makes the case that it's just bad
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: writing and that it doesn't have any metaphorical power anymore
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: and to just let it go. And I would be
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: inclined to agree.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: In some aspect. They got that from George Orwell's Rules
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: of writing. He is the guy who famously said never
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: use an idiom figure, speech or phrase that you are
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: used to seeing in print, and he broke that rule
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: often just by.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: The way, yeah, and This commentary was by a writer
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: named David marsh and Ben. As you said at the
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: top of the podcast, war often brings new idioms into circulation,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: and it makes sense because you have people of different
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: ethnicities mixing under times of great duress, and you've got
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: a lot of like kind of phrases commingle and take
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: on new meaning and get adopted, you know, by different cultures.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: And I think we had a couple that we want
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: to just throw out real quick.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, sure. There's for instance, boondocks, which now is
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: meant to indicate a place in the middle of nowhere, right,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: The boom doocks originally was a phrase in Tagalak in
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: the Philippines, and it just meant mountain. Or there's what's
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: another one, Pip squeak, Right, that's one.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Pips Squeak's an interesting one because that was actually a
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: very particular type of small German gun that was used
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: in trench warfare during World War One. And then you have,
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: speaking of trench warfare, the trench coat was very specifically
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: one a garment that was worn originally in trench warfare.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: So that was a thing they didn't have a name for,
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: and then they called it a trench coat.
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: Interesting, I mean you call pip squeaks. You refer to
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: someone as a pip squeak if they're kind of just
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: a nerdy, precocious kid now.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: Or in any way diminutive and not worthy of your respect.
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: Sure, that reminded me of another one flea bag actually,
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: as in like a flea bag hotel.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Oh I missed that phrase.
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, first to uh, grimy and just unsuitable sleeping arrangements.
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: You know, the word comes from slang actually used by
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: soldiers in the trenches referring to their sleeping bags.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: So that would have often been absolutely infested with fleas
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: under these horrible conditions. So you know, from awful circumstances
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: sometimes come fun.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: Idioms, yes, yes, and fun idioms, fun idioms, fun idioms.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Actually we anoyed. We have tintinabulated that way right, speaking
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: of downtown abbe it what I said, nintinabulated. So tintinabulation
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: is one of my favorite examples of how you can
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: simply create a word out of more or less whole cloth.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: I believe it was Edgar Allam Poe who used who
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: coined the term tintinabulation to mean the sound of bells ringing.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: Whoa yeah, just the sound of ringing bells or the
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: sound after a bell has been rung. He just made
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: it up. He just styled on it. Or as we've
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: said before on this show, he churchified it. This idea
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: of bags, flea bags. It's an excellent segue. I have
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: one that will be familiar to you Nolan, to you Casey,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: and perhaps to you long time ridiculous historians or fans
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: of other shows. It is the phrase to let the
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: cat out of the bag or the badger, oh a
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: classic yes, yes, or in our case the badger. So
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: going back to what you said earlier, knowl about how
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: it's strange that certain phrases can just feel normal because
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: of the context in which they occur. Let the cat
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: out of the bag is something that everyone who speaks
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: English typically understands. Right to reveal a secret of some sort,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: sometimes an unpleasant truth, sometimes a pleasant surprise. But when
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: you think about it, it's really strange, Like when's the
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: last time you walk around with a cat in a bag?
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Or someone was like, hey, will you hold this.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: Bag for me?
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Be careful it has a kit full of cats, full
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: of cats. There's no time to explain.
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: It feels like a very old person, bad habit, and
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: it might stem from like a granny who was going
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: through a serious episode of dementia and had a foot
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: kitty cat in a bag.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Or simply refused to pay for one of those cat carriers.
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: Right, and so I'm not gonna pay for it, though
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: I wasste fifteen dollars. I got this perfectly good bag.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: I tend to picture the bag as being a pillowcase
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: and the act being much more of like I'm hunting
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: cats and I'm put the cat in the bag and
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: then I'm going to hit the bag drowning kittens.
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: Or something like that Gumma style. Not good.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Well, luckily it's quite possibly not that dark, I have
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: to say, quite possibly. So. The first recorded use of
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: this frame.
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: The positive the cat got out of the bag.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: The first recorded use of it comes from this book
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: review in seventeen sixty in London magazine, and the reviewer
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: is complaining about this book that they've read, and they say,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: we could have wished that the author had not let
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: the cat out of the bag. And so in this
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: context it seems like it still as a present day meaning,
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: which is that the author not spoiled a surprise or
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: secret in the book, but this was used other times
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: in print, and there are a few origin stories about
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: how it came about. I'll give you, guys the first
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: one and then tell you why I think it makes
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: no sense. So the first one is this idea that
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: goes all the way back to open air market in
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: Britain and the concept of unscrupulous tradesmen or con artist.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: The thing is that they would trade livestock right, including pigs,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: which were a big deal at the time, and people
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: would sometimes sell piglets in bags, or, as the expression goes,
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: pigs in a poke. Poke would be another one for bag,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: not a blanket, not a blanket in front. They didn't
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: get it.
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: Not as delicious, not well, you know, to each their own.
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: But that's a corn dog actually, yeah, a pig and
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: a pillow. I'm sorry, going, no.
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: That's great.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: Is that really a term?
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: No, man, it is as of right now, all.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: Right, tend to nabulate it. So the idiom that's related
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: to is when a pig is offered open the poke,
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: meaning that one should always check and inspect what you
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: have before you leave, after you buy it. Don't buy
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: some mystery thing in a bag just because someone told
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: you what it was. That concept or figure speech dates
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: back to at least the sixteenth century. I forgot where
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: an audio podcast, So everybody, I'm sort of feudally gesturing
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: with my thumb over my right shoulder for some reason.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: That's where the sixteen hundreds are.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Well, now you made it audible, so we can picture it.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Now, there we go.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: Case you can throw in some sound effects too.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: You've saved the show. So the idea is that these
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: con artists would instead of giving somebody a piglet sold
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: in a bag, they would capture and sell a much
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: less valuable feral cat. This was a profitable practice for
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: the con artist. But either way, the moment of the
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: revelation or the origin of the phrase in this story
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: is that someone would get home and they would open
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: the bag, and this we can only imagine incredibly irritated
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: cat would burst forth and recavoc you know, become an
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: agent of chaos. But this doesn't really make sense because
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: even the largest cat is going to weigh less than
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: a pig right, true, right, like a I'm not an
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: expert piglet handler, Yeah, it's not in my skill set.
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: Yet your cats are pretty big. They're almost piglets sized.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: Oh I think, yeah, they're sort of luxurious, furry soft piglets.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: Hey, and I've seen some emaciated pigs out there too.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: So maybe there's a ven there's a sweet spot, there's
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: a ven diagram here.
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: Or maybe they made it a pig and a cat.
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: I'm just gonna leave it at that. Okay, rhymes, that
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: was very doctor.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they made it a cat, and I'll leave it
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: at that.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: Sound effects, So there's but there's the thing, all right,
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: So this doesn't really make sense because additionally, pigs and
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: cats make audibly different noises. We can only assume that
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: they would probably not be chilling in a bag, so
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: we would hear some squeeze, some oincs, et cetera, and
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: then we hear some loud hisses and mews and uh,
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: you know, that seems easy to differentiate. But there's the
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: other idea that it comes from a Spanish phrase, the
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Spanish equivalent do regato libre to give a cat for
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: a hair, because rabbits, sorry h r e rabbits are
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: commonly eaten. During the fourteenth fifteenth century, cat and a
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: rabbit are more similar in size, and it seems more
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: plausible to pull this switch ru this way. But the
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: third theory is that sailors would get in trouble in
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: the Royal Navy, and the Royal Navy would keep them
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: in line with a coat of a cat of nine tails,
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: and that this was originally kept in a red sack
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: that people could that everybody was aware of, you know,
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: kind of a warning hanging out in public view. And
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: then when someone is going to be punished, the captain
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: would order that they'd be trotted out. Everybody on the
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: ship has to join on deck and then boom out
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: comes the red cloth bag and then boom out comes
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: the cat of nine tails and then upshrints and repeat.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: So that's a little more grizzly. I'm also I mean
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: can take it out a pad of tails in a fact.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: You know, that's interesting, Ben, because they both imply a
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: negative thing being released that can wreak some havoc when
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: it's let out into the world and one so they
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: both kind of hold true. I have one quick question, Bene.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: You talked about the original let the Pig out of
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: the Poke or whatever it was about examining a purchase
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: you're going to make and how it would be smart
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: to do that.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: I think I know where you're going.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: It's kind of the opposite of looking a gift horse
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: in the mouth, right, because that's impolite. If you're like
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: examining a horse's teeth that was given to you as
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: a gift, that's the no.
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: No, even though it would be prudent.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: Maybe, you know, even if a horse is a lot
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: of responsibility, even if it was a gift, I would
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: want to make sure I wasn't getting some kind of trash,
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: you know, diseased horse.
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I want a horse to go to the dentist
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: through regularly.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Well you can tell the age of the oh, I
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: think is one of the one of the factors.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: Or just I don't want a sickly horse, because then
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: I have to dispose of the horse. I might get
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: close to the horse and become its pale, go on adventures,
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden the horse drops dead
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: and I'm left sad and alone. Horse, I want to
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: take a stick my head all the way.
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: In that mouth.
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: So that was it, And not to kick a dead
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: horse if you will, Okay, but yeah, I mean, if
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: who's given away horses. That's in thing.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't be at that point in my life where
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: someone's like, hey man, I have this horse that I
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: thought of you. I don't know what I would do
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: with it, but.
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: It would definitely be a well, wow, thanks. Do you
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: also give me a farm?
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: Nay, it's like somebody giving you, like, here's a field
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: for you to cultivate and farm.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: And take care of and water.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: It's an obligations, but that's a whole new career. Yeah.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: The last thing about this cat and the bag idiom
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: whence you guys can tell you went on a little
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: bit of a rabbit hole on is the idea that
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: it is a thing that cannot be reversed. It is
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: very difficult to get that cat back in the bag, right.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: It's a Pandora's box or Pandora's jar situation. Pandora's bag,
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: Pandora's bag, thank you, Pandora's basket Handora's basket case bag.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: So now oh we are now we are armed with that,
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: and I'm liking the I think I took us in
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: a weird animal direction, but I was just captivated because
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: I really wanted to know if there had ever been
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: you know, some prominent myth or some real life historical
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: occurrence wherein someone was like, all right, guys, I've got
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: this bag. I think there's a cat in it.
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: There's with me exactly? Well, it kind of was. I
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: guess cat out of the bag? Everybody you heard it.
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: Her first was the OG spoiler alert. Ah, yeah, that's
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: the cool way of saying it. Now, But God's out
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: of the bag. No one likes to say that. You know,
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: when you ruined the ending.
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: Of sixth Sense? All right, Grandpa?
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: More more like the plots out of the bag, right, Yeah,
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: because that that guy is Bruce Willis the whole time.
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: That's true, always he was, Hailey Joe Osmond ambers, well
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: as the whole time.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: I've just got to say it. I saw an episode
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: of Future Man.
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: You guys know that I thought you were just about
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: to ruin the ending of sixth Sense.
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: I just gotta say that.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: I think that's past the statute limitation of Estaish this
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: and other shows.
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: But still, it's just what were you going to say?
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Well, Haley Joel Osmond is still acting.
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he was in Silicon Valley.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: He looks very, very different. He looks he's a very
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: and I don't mean this in disrespectful way. He's got
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: he still has the same facial features in the same arrangement, but.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: He's he's large, big, but the face is just kind
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: of thropped in the middle of his head.
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: I think he's really funny and I really good guy.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: He's on Comedy Bang Bang a lot, and he on
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: the Comedy Band Bang TV show, and they kind of
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: played into that slightly odd look because he plays a
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: character called slow Joey, So I mean, I didn't that
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: wasn't my idea, but.
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: You know, he definitely has a sense of humor and
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: oh absolutely, I mean like him on Silicon Valley is
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: a similar kind of you know, hair brained character, Isn't.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: He also kind of a weird back an alien, kind
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: of debauched, weird Hollywood execuey type guy who is always
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: drugging and boozing and womanizing.
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: Did I make that up?
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: I kind of he seems more like dopey and brought
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: out of Bushatail as opposed to the other guy who's
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: like that, who's like really maniacal.
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: Characters.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: Well, Haley Jolas, But if you're listening, is he on
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: Future Man?
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Is that Future Man? He is without spoiling the thing.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: He's also unhinged in future, man, I was just watching
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: on surprise because I didn't believe it was him at first.
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: I've never seen it.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: You know it's worth your time.
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: I'll watch it in the future, man.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: Right, well, let the cat out of the back row
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: a movie? What else do you have for us? Hey?
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: You know both of you two.
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: I like the cut of y'all's jib. It's true.
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: Is jib right here? That jib this whole thing? Uh
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: huh the jib over there too.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: I stay jib and I see it.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: You guys have heard this probably, Oh yeah, kind of
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: you can.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: Assume mainly on the Sopranos.
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: Mainly on the Sopranos, for sure. It's actually from maritime traditions.
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: It's as old as like seventeenth century, eighteenth century. It's
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: referencing the triangular shaped sail known as the jib. Some
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: ships actually have more than one jib sail. They all
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: have their own style. And I guess that's kind of
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: refers to when you say I like the cut of
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: your jib, it's like, oh, like, I like your style, man,
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: I like your vibe.
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, so.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: This is actually, the jib is the fabric the sale exactly.
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: Oh and another thing, and I don't know if this
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: was verified or but I read that because these jib
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: sails look vaguely like a nose, it could refer very
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: specifically to someone's facial features, which is pretty interesting.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a very specific compliment to give someone, right.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: I feel like you have to know someone pretty well for.
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: Sure to be like, Hey, hey, Jimmy Duranty, I like
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: the cut of your jib. You know that's a joke
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: for the elders. Everyone googled Jimmy nose.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: Come on, guys, doesn't he say like or something? He says,
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: make that up?
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: Isn't his big nose isn't. Also quite red and largely
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: probably due to burst blood vessels from alcoholism.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: Bulbous from the gin gin face for days. That makes sense.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: So wait, what is a jibsail? Though we know it's
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: a sail, is it you said they have multiple ones?
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: Well, it's I'm assuming affiliated with the mass of the boat.
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: So which is the big wooden middle part that then
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: hoists the jib sail? I don't quote me on that,
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: but this is what I took in when I was,
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: you know, scrambling to learn the anomology of chip.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: And I'm surprised to learn that there's this nasal illusion.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: Now I'm gonna start calling people's noses jibs for sure.
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: Keep you jib clean, Keep you jib clean.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: Man, Well you mean so.
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: With noses, peop, don't be putting your jib in other
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: people's you know, jibs.
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: This Do you remember jib jab? Okay, we're going off tangent.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: No, no, Now, I'm just going to replace the word
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: nose with jib every time I every time the opportunity
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: presents this, along with nippet in the butt, is setting
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: up my next.
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: Oh my god, butts and noses, and then that's that's
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: a perfect setup for a brown nose. Of course, think
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: about that, which is kind of one that I thought
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: about earlier as well.
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: That's disgusting. Fair enough, that's discussed.
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: Because it refers to the on news because you're kissing
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: someone's booty so hard, well, you know, the rest is obvious.
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: But then that's why I didn't actually choose that one,
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: because it seems obvious.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: Well, there's someone maybe who has a who's just having
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: a uh. The more you know moment right now, Brown.
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: Right, the light bulb over their head just bursts.
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: They're like, oh okay, I get it, Brown, Nos got it, Pope.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: I want to check in real quick, Casey or any
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: of these surprising you so far?
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: Uh? I hate to be the unactually guy. But no, not.
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: Well hold on, Casey, you didn't know the history of
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: all these. You assumed this is an educational program. This
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: is true, this is true.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: Well, we still luckily have one more shot to uh
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: surprise and unactually are again very beloved super produce.
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: Unactually Is that cannot be our next podcast?
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: I love Unactual Actually?
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: Noel are our hopes for this episode? Today rests with you,
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: my friends. Oh man, that's a lot of pressure.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: And I'm struggling right now because our internet has has
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: just abandoned me.
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: It has forsaken me. We don't use the wall recording.
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: That is a lie. This is straight from our endless
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: Jeopardy brands.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Oh well, that's that's very very nice, Very nice of
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: you to think that Rowan knew me.
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: But alas that is not the case.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: Although to be fair, Ben and I are the only
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: ones with laptop machines in front of us, right now.
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: Rowan is pure pen and paper. I am more paper
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: and brains. Well that's what rowan is.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Doom doom, doom, doom doom.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Are you doing Ice Ice baby or under pressure?
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: You know what? Man, Let's be honest. Vanilla Ice ripped
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: it off.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: They're just kind of intertwined at this point, right, that.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Great moment in that VH one, uh whatever the show was,
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: We're he tries to play the music yeah yeah, where
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: he tries to explain they're different because he.
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: Says, there's a yeah, this is an extra, an extra
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: blipt up.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: Well, you guys, I'm I'm ready.
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: I'm ready to take on this.
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: And it's actually really serendipitous. I I did know what
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: our pale rowan was going to do with the cut
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: of the GiB and all, but I didn't actually do
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: any research into it.
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: I had no idea that it was a nautical term.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: As it turns out, mine is also a nautical term,
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: and it involves not the jib or the sail itself.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: And it's actually really interesting because I think that these
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: things sound god like they should be flipped. Mine is
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: three sheets to the wind, and as it turns out,
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: in nautical parlance, a sheet which you would think would
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: be the sail. Not so, it's the line that tether's
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: the sail.
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: Interesting, right, and someone is very inebriate.
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: And very aebriated. I I didn't know this one at all.
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: I didn't even have any inkling.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: It's one of those ones that I just chose blindly
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: to use. Sometimes I would even go so far as
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: to say more than three sheets, you know, for sure
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: sheets your seven sheets, you're ten sheets to fifteen sheets to.
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: The wind, target linen department, to the exactly your blotto.
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: Wind, exactly whatever.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Rowin you may not have I don't know
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: how much of a steadfast Fana ridiculous history you are.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: But we did do an episode where we kind of
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: listed through Benjamin Franklin's expressions for being drunk, and ben
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: just listed a few there great, But one that Benjamin
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: Franklin did not come up with is three sheets to
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: the wind. And this is this is so crazy to me,
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: because yeah, these were not sheets or sails as you
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: might think. There wasn't even wind, well there hopefully was,
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: or else the ship's not going to go.
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: Sorry.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: They were lines, ropes, sometimes they were chains and they're
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: the things if you've ever been on a sailboat or
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: a sloop of some sort of perhaps a barge. No,
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: barges don't have sails.
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 54:08
  Speaker 4: I'm not a I'm a I'm a bit of a
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: I'm a land love what they call that.
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're fixed to the bottom corners of the sails
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: to hold them in place so that they catch the wind.
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: And again, if there's any sailor types out there, forgive
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: my ignorance. I'm doing the best I can. But I
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: believe a sail would require three sheets to be properly
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: fastened and uh and you know, tightened so that you
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: could actually manipulate it and put it, you know, in
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: the direction of the wind so it catches the wind.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: So but again, this to the wind business doesn't even
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: refer to the wind that's catching the sails.
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: It refers to the.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: Sheets or the lines being loose range or in the wind.
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: Huh.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: You know, like if there be steered, it can't be steered.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: Not only that it's gonna be erratic because the the
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: sail is there and catching some of the win, but
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: it's flopping around like crazy. And so in sort of
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: resembling a drunk person stumbling around. Yeah, okay, so there
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: are actually variations on this, right, So if you're one
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: sheet to the wind, you're gonna not be quite as tight.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: You're gonna have a little bit of a little bit
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: of a little tipsy yes, right. And then if you
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: got two sheets, you're kind of in the middle there.
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: And if you got three sheets, you're not looking good.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: You're embarrassing yourself. Dad, go home.
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: Your boat has sprung a leak, really will if you
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: do not get an uber boat home?
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: Yes, the thing and if it's not as should be.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: Also side note, in the time of f Scott Fitzgerald,
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: the phrase tight was used to mean getting drunk.
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: That's right, that's right.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a that is a very very good
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: addition there, Ben. So it's interesting because this expression goes
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: back to eighteen ninety one in a book by Pierce
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: Egan called Real Life in London, and it this is
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: out of context, and I'm getting this from an article
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: on phrases dot org dot uk, which is fantastic for
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: these etymological explorations, and the quote that they cite out
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: of context is fantastic. Old wax and bristles is about
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: three sheets in the wind.
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: It was old wax and I guess old wax and bristles.
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: Everybody here, everybody was old wax and bristles, old wax
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: and bold. And I like, it's three sheets in the wind,
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: not to the winds in that, yeah, exactly.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: And then then it got changed to the wind and yeah.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: And then in this article as well, they talk about
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: the scale of drunkenness that sailors had, where like I
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: said before, three sheets was completely stupefied, falling over yourself, drunk,
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: your tipsy, like you said, rowan was one sheet and
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: then or a sheet in the wind's eye. And actually
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: they don't listed two sheets, but surely two sheets was
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: the middle ground has to be right, because that's going
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: to give you some stability on that sale, but not enough.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: And they even have another example using a windmill, like
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: a Dutch windmill, which would have four that's good, they
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: would have four What do you call them turbans? No,
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: that's not one wing on a turbine is not a turban.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: The turbine, well they some some people in the engineering
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: community pronounce it turbine.
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: Oh, I know it's true.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: I only know this because I used to work public
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: radio and I covered the nuclear industry and I would
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: interview these engineering nuclear nerds and they would call them turbans,
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: and they actually and I'm doing it.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: I'm actually right now.
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: And I'm pro nerd.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: So I love nerds, and I'm saying that sort of
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: that is not what I'm doing it all, Ben, I
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: love nerds. There are some Okay, you guys are really
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: making me, but here we go. So, yeah, if you
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: have four of these, you know, let's call them, what
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: do you call one thing in a propeller, one part
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: of a blades, blade, blades? Gosh, I am not doing yeah.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: So if you have like four of them, right, So
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: if one of them is out of commission, he got three,
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: that's going to be a very unstable.
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: Turban, right, I mean for sure.
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: So three sheets to the wind anyway, So there's more.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: It actually carries on in literary history in a novel
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: called The Fisher's Daughter by a writer named Catherine Ward.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: And here's another quote from this phrases dot Org article.
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: From this work, Wolf replenished his glass at the request
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: of mister Blust, who, instead of being one sheet in
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: the wind, was likely to get to three before he
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: took his departure.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that makes sense.
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: It's beautiful, beautiful expression. Is a beautiful qusson.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: At this point we're still three sheets in the wind.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: And then we have the modern three sheets to the
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: wind that comes in a book called the Journal of
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: Francis Asbiret that talks about this gentleman's travels through Kentucky,
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: through Kentucky and the United States. But yet this is
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: an Englishman and the writer also English, and this is
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: the line from this work. The tavern keepers were kind
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: and polite, as Southern folks should be, and as Southern
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: folks ought not to be. They were sometimes two sheets
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: in the wind.
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: Oh that liquid fire. That's so great.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: Not to crib too hard from the Incredible Phrases dot
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: Org article, but it goes on to talk about how
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: Robert Lewis Stevenson really popularized this phrase for a wider audience,
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: because obviously Treasure Island was like a blockbuster of a novel,
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: gave us all kinds of pirate parlance, right like shiver
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: me timbers and talking about searching for treasure. You got
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: your ex that marks the spot. The image of a
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: pirate with a peg leg and a parrot. You know
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: that whole all that, all that, all that imagery comes
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: from from Robert Lewis Stevenson. And the quote that he
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: uses with this phrase goes back to the old way,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: which is, maybe you think we are all a sheet
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: in the wind's.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: Eye, but I tell you I was sober. Nah.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: And there's a lot of great pirate slang in Treasure Island.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: I think there are also some arguments about how much
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: of that was Stevenson going this is what I think
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: a pirate will sound like, and how much of it
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: was actual pirate speech. And you know what, we could
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: do a great piece on genuine pirate speech because a
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: lot of these guys tended to be polyglots. You know,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: they met so many other people. But before we continue, Casey,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: could we have a drum roll? Please? Did Noel save
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: the day? Was this a phrase that you were unaware
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: of origin? Story wise?
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: Yes, Casey on the case, I did it?
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 4: Wowoa, WHOA.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: Just kidding, guys, it's getting We all did it. Everyone
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: brought amazing stuff to the table. Thank you so much.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: Rowan Newby of Pitches Podcast Fame. Check it out. I
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: think it's on SoundCloud now, but soon it will be
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: on iTunes and all the places you find podcast at
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: Pitches podcast not for the kiddos.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: It's it gets it.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: Gets pretty pretty blue at times.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: It gets a little blue.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: Well, if you want your kids to have an accelerated
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: learning course in the ways of languish, yeah, it's not
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: that bad.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: You guys.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: Well, if you like the cut of ridiculous Histories jib
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: we imagine that you uh, you will go bananas. We
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: didn't look into what that means, but you will go pitches.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: So check it out. As Noel said, don't hesitate to
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: get thee to the internet in the meantime. Yeah, thanks
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: so much for coming broin.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: Really been a pleasure.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure here too. It's always a pleasure
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: hanging out rowing just like me and Ben. We always
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: say this. I think we say it so much people
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: might think we're not telling the truth, but I swear
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: we are in fact all friends outside of the show
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: and we hang out. And it was nice to have
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: you enter the shipping container, the podcasto sphere with ridiculous history.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I'd actually like to get a picture of you
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: Rowan if you're comfortable with that. Its been port of
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: face to a name, and we'll pop it up on
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: my Instagram which is at ben Bulin. Maybe we'll get
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: our ridiculous history folks to retweet it or I'm sorry regram.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: It was that a thing has a separate app for that.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: It's a really annoying analyst that it's a weird one.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: I'm really into the stories. I think it's a lot
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: of fun. That's really the closest thing you can do
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: to regramming stuff. Put them on those stories. You can
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: check me out at Embryonic Insider. You can check rowing
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: out at Pitches podcast. On the Instagram, you can check
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: out Ridiculous History at Ridiculous History. Also, if you want
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: to hang out with your fellow Ridiculous historians, you can
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: do that on our Facebook group which is the Ridiculous Historians.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: You just have to name one of our names, or
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: Casey's name, or you know what we make us laugh?
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: Oh, name dropping. That's another one we didn't talk about.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: That's very true. That can probably figure out where that
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: one go.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: Big Thanks to super producer Casey Pegrim and Alex Williams,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: who composed our theme.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: Yes, Thanks as always to our research associate team. Thanks
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: very much to you guys out there listening in podcast land.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: This episode is over, but the story of strange phrases continues.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: When you are reaching out to us, let us know
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: what phrase always sounded very strange to you, the.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: Origin story of something, and let us know if you
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: want to see idiots on idioms or idiomatic for the
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: people rearing its head once again, iracy. There you go
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: in the ridiculous history and a sphere.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: There we go.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 3: We'll see you next time, folks.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.