Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / 1st Black Philly DA to Federal Prison - Seth Williams

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1st Black Philly DA to Federal Prison - Seth Williams · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:01
What happens when he works here? Becomes your reality.
0:04
Hi. I'm Brent, Cassidy.
0:05
Welcome to the nightmare success.
0:07
And Now podcast but we explore a how to overcome your fears and
0:11
Nightmares is set yourself free. We're going to be exploring this
0:14
topic with guys that was in Leavenworth with and others who
0:17
survived their own nightmare. These stories can be inspiring.
0:21
Sometimes sad, there's some humor but hopefully you can come
0:25
away with a nugget of something that will help you knock down
0:28
some of the prisons you built. It up in your own mind.
0:35
All right. Nightmare success, listeners
0:37
were back and man, am I excited about the guest?
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I have today? You know, this, this program is
0:46
all about, you know, what happens when your worst fear
0:48
becomes your reality? How do you adapt survive?
0:51
Overcome set yourself? Free Will Seth Williams.
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If you go to Wikipedia, this guy has quite the Wikipedia page.
1:00
It's but I think and I was thinking back all the different
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interviews is that's happened in the last year and a half.
1:07
And Seth is the first guest that I've had.
1:10
That has run the full spectrum of the Criminal Justice System.
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I can't wait to get in and talk to him a little bit about that.
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He was a graduate of Georgetown law school.
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He made a name for himself with a stellar career and the
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Philadelphia District Attorney's office He became the first black
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elected district attorney in Philly.
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Serve two, terms was running for a third, and he really became a
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darling of the party of discussion of bigger State
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offices and National officers, and then nightmare began.
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And he had an investigation. It was all around undisclosed
1:49
gifts, and it just became a nasty mess.
1:52
But, you know, Seth is one of the few people that I've had on
1:55
here because 97% of us when we get indicted, We play out and
2:01
Seth went to trial and on the eighth day they came to a plea
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agreement was reached and he ended up getting a five-year
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federal prison sentence. Seth is doing incredible things.
2:15
Now using his experience, his intellect to help others and the
2:20
whole re-entry process of returning home and I can't wait
2:24
to talk to you about that too. Before we get into that, I want
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Tell them. Brent from nightmares success.
3:09
Sent you Seth Williams. Welcome, in my man.
3:13
How are you doing today? Doing very well.
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So, Seth you have You have an incredible story and and I want
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to give a shout out to Jeff Grant because he he was on the
3:28
show here at two or three episodes ago.
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And we were talking back and forth and he obviously Jeff
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knows. A lot of people with what he
3:38
does in his world and he said, man, you got to if you can get
3:41
ahold of Seth and he gave me your contact.
3:43
And so we connected and here we are.
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So, and so again, it's great that you met You know, Jeff
3:52
Grant in that yes I participate and I used to participate every
3:57
week but I still frequently participate in his Monday
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evening. What time do you mean?
4:04
Yeah, White House support group for men and women from all
4:07
across the country that have had their own nightmare come true.
4:12
Reality. Yes.
4:13
But it's a way for us to help each other.
4:16
Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, hopefully
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we'll get into that. But yes, Jeff has Been a
4:21
tremendous resource to a lot of us.
4:23
Yeah. To talk about it to deal with
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because for the most part those of us that have been prosecuted,
4:29
specifically, White Collar, but they refer refer to as white
4:34
collar crimes. Don't have a network of people
4:40
to talk to ya feel like you're on an island.
4:43
Yeah, so when I prosecuted, you know, I was an assistant
4:46
district attorney for ten and a half years.
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Yeah, I also was a criminal defense attorney.
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Journey, I was an Army Jag officer, where I prosecuted and
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defended people. But frequently the people that I
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prosecuted or the people that I defended had made a conscious
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decision to get into whatever the criminal Endeavor, they were
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in, but they knew people that also made that decision.
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Yes, or they were working with other people.
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Right, or wrong, right? No judge messes terribly but
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they had friends that told them what to Expect, if something
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goes bad. And you do end up in state
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prison or federal prison or County, they could.
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So, they kind of knew what to expect.
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And there was a network of people that if they did go to
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prison, right? When you watch the mafia movies,
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they go to prison. They know how to take care of
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the person's family while they're gone.
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Yeah. Well, it's the exact opposite
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for white-collar criminal. Yes.
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On that people that, you know, dependent upon you or use You
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or, you know, when you become under investigation or you get
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convicted all of those people, give you the Heisman, yes,
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right. They don't want to be anywhere
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near you, right? Oh, people don't come to your
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assistance for the most part. Now, there are, of course, there
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are some, you know, people that stand out that dude, that are
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true friends Navy. But for the most part people
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that you might have considered your Associate colleagues.
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All hi. So, one of the great things
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about the white Colour, the progressive prison ministry and
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the support group is just to have people to talk to because I
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think what's fundamental to your the title of your show, right?
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And to your listeners. Yeah, what I found when I lost
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everything. And I know we'll get into that,
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but you know, I lost my reputation.
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I lost my law-license, I lost my pension, I lost my house.
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I lost my military career. Lots of Lujan was love.
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I lost all of those things, but it was in losing all of those
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things that I really learned much more than I ever had a very
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exposed to. I learned that a sense of
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resiliency. But again, what I believe is a
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great part of your podcast and was a great reason to have it.
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we may be comfortable, but that we make A lot of my fear when I
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was under investigation is just the unknown.
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I didn't know what to expect. I had no one to talk to, right?
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And so being able to talk to other people or share my own
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personal experience, hopefully will be someone that listen and
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find some sense of Solace, hope Apostle resources to turn to so
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that they can thrive. I've well let's do this because
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I think Seth you've got an interesting background from the
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beginning. Can you kind of walk us back a
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little bit about, you know, Seth Williams growing up as a kid.
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Sure, you mentioned earlier that had a great Wikipedia?
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Well, a lot of things are on Wikipedia.
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I mean, anybody can go on there and adds to lot of things, a lot
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of things about my life were removed.
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Yeah, used to talk about my military career and all that.
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Erase. I don't know by whom right.
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So yeah, I don't know how anyone works.
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I don't I don't, I don't know how Wikipedia works, but I do
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know that people can add and delete and I'm not sure how
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either one of those work, right? So, again, my name is Seth and I
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was born January, the second 1967 And I was given up for
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adoption at Birth. And I lived in an orphanage and
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Foster Care. But God, had a great plan for me
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and I was adopted by wonderful family.
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Who lived in Philadelphia. My father's name was Rufus.
9:19
Oh Williams. And he was a school teacher.
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Every night he took a nap, he made sure.
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I did my homework. We had dinner together then he
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went to his second job every evening from 6 p.m. to 10 p.m.
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where he worked at a recreation center our neighborhood.
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Well coaching basketball playing table, tennis with kids, playing
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chess, teaching them out of play checkers.
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Showing movies on Monday nights and every summer he was the
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director of a day camp here in Philadelphia.
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So his entire life was Cated to improving the quality of life
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for kids and their families and providing opportunity to also.
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And I learned much later, I would tell people that despite
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being the district attorney, I know that my father did much
10:10
more than I'll ever do to present a crime, but my father
10:15
was a son of a nanny Minister and my father didn't drink, he
10:19
didn't smoke, he didn't curse. He was a student at Penn State
10:24
when World War Two, when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and
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he Enlisted the next day. And after graduating from Penn
10:34
State and earning his master's. Also in education there, he then
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moved to Houston Texas to help a friend.
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Start the art department at a college that was known as the
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Texas Southern College for Negroes.
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It's now Texas Southern University.
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Yeah. Another simple smile and he had
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a great, he said he had a 1948 Hudson convertible, that was
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green with red, leather interior.
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And help caught the attention of a young lady who's a freshman.
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And so he, she was 18 and he was 28, I told you my father didn't
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drink smoke or cursed, but he found himself a little Creole
11:14
girl from Galveston Texas. They did all three of those
11:16
things. Well at all.
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All right, Opposites Attract, right?
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And so my mother was Catholic and my father converted to
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Catholicism when they got married, they moved Back to his
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hometown of Philadelphia. And I told you, my father was a
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school teacher. He worked the rec center and he
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called it ran a day camp in the Summers.
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My mother was the executive secretary to the commanding
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officer, to fill out the Naval Shipyard.
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Wow. Okay.
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And she was all of five foot tall.
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For she would tell you that there was a different commanding
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officer at the Navy Yard every 3 years or every three years the
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new captain or Admiral be named the commanding officer but she
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said through it all she was in charge.
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Of course she was taught you what was taught me a lot about
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how to deal with support staff and people that actually make
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things happen and to Sure treat everyone with respect.
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I was given up for adoption. In birth and my parents, I was
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their only child. I was their only extravagance.
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So they say their money and put me in the best schools that they
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could attend to their private Quaker School in Philadelphia,
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right? So I told you, I was the son of
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a man who converted from being a, a me to Catholic some of the
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Catholic church every Sunday. But I went to Quaker School.
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We're about 70% of my classmates were Jewish.
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Wow, so, I II. I was exposed to a lot and learn
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how to appreciate our differences and find
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similarities between people and to respect.
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Tell you how everyone did you learn Seth early on that you
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were adopted or how does that work with somebody?
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Who's a dime? Great.
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It's a great question. So my mother was very, it was a
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creole. So her parents were the result
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of what in the South and was referred Miscegenation of the
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French slave owners and their property.
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So it's very light skinned African-Americans are referred
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to as Creole when they spoke a language Creole.
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This is a good broken French. A, my father Rufus Williams.
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A mother's name is emmelda Williams, Imelda Broussard.
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Her maiden name was Bruce art, which is a creole name, which is
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as familiar as Smith Down, Louisiana, and he's Texas.
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Well, there's even there. Is not.
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I was thinking there. I know somebody Broussard that
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lived around in that area that had a funeral.
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Yeah, well, you can't throw a stone without hitting a
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Broussard in Southwest Louisiana, and I Worland.
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And so, anyway, my father was very dark-skinned.
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I kind of was like, in the middle of them.
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I just assumed my whole life. I was just there.
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Kid. Nobody told me otherwise since I
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was 11 and I was getting ready to go away for this program.
14:19
I've been chosen to represent Children at this camp in
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Denmark, when I was 11 years old to promote World Peace.
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Well, children and my mother started drinking.
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And she started telling me that my parents have a talk with kids
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about all the things to watch out for when you're traveling
14:36
you know. And somehow this ended up with
14:38
her telling me how much she loved me of course and but she'd
14:44
been pregnant in the 50s and as a result of medicine that they
14:48
give him a lot of mothers, then I always missed.
14:50
Announced it will minimize minimize.
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I always mispronounce it. I know I would mispronounce that
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but she had a miscarriage and an emergency hysterectomy and that
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she never had any additional kids.
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I was just crying and through that.
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I was told that I was adopted that they always wanted a child
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and they picked me out, you know that and that's so that's why I
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found out but then that cause into me A serious sense of
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Abandonment and rejection like well, I know my parents love me.
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Yeah. Why does the other people want
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me? Right?
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What is it about me that they didn't want?
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So I began an entire irrational narrative in my own mind.
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I knew that my biological mother was white, my biological father
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was black. That they were college students.
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I knew what my name was with 50 hours from but that's it.
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And so from that I created a narrative that therapist
15:56
psychologist psychiatrist will say is people often do And it
16:01
was completely false, but it was to defend protect myself about.
16:07
But it caused In Me As I Grew, you know, to have a sense of
16:13
Abandonment and rejection which which is interesting because
16:19
Seth you were real achiever to. I mean that, you know, I guess
16:23
some of that could be that when you have that feeling that you
16:25
must maybe the outshoot of that is that you think you've got to
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go out and prove Yourself and be sure enough people will keep
16:33
you. Yeah it won't get you back
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because I notice when you will notice when you went to Penn
16:39
State, you were a very active in the student government.
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I think you were president is of of that body and, you know,
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those aren't just normal things that everybody does when they go
16:51
to college, especially the size of somewhere like Penn State.
16:54
Yeah. So what I tell people is that
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I've always found myself in positions of leadership, you
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know, from Great class, president student council
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president and eighth grade. We're back of the football team.
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In high school point guard in basketball.
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Yeah, I guess I have almost like a sheepdog mentality around.
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I tell people wasn't as a result of a Napoleonic desire to
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conquer just an every night. Almost at dinner, one way, the
17:26
other my father would impress upon me that unless you're
17:29
willing to be a part of the solution.
17:30
Ocean you Fortress, right? To complain.
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I love that. Right.
17:35
And so, you've got to be a part of making things happen in
17:37
solving things, and he was living that he was living that
17:41
my father. When he got the Penn State in
17:43
1940, he was one of just 12 black students.
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They were all black men. They were all Varsity athlete
17:52
but because of the color of the skin they couldn't live on
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campus. How incredible is that?
17:57
All right, that's And so after WWII, he fought with a
18:02
segregated Army. But he hated, you know where
18:08
they were disrespected, sir he almost have been found many
18:12
ways. He had more privileged overseas
18:16
then here in America. So when he returned from combat
18:21
and we earned a purple, heart was wounded in combat when he
18:26
came back from the VA hospital, he went back to Penn State.
18:28
He founded the NAACP chapter and my fraternity, the Alpha, Phi
18:33
Alpha fraternity, Which is the oldest fraternity for
18:36
African-American men in America. And he led sit-ins and protests
18:41
for public accommodations and civil rights in State College
18:46
Pennsylvania. Black men were allowed to live
18:48
on campus until they had these protests and were allowed to
18:50
live on campus in 1947. So, as a result of that,
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whenever things happened, I just found myself, what we got to do
18:58
something, and I found myself helping organize people, and so
19:03
yes, when II He went to West Point After High School.
19:06
Okay. I tell people, I got a medical
19:08
discharge they found out. I was little, I was allergic to
19:11
math and calculus and chemistry. I hate math that failure in life
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really? I learned from my failures.
19:23
The most. Yeah.
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That's and it was that a heck of a tip though you know, right
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learning and evolving from from that.
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Absolutely right. So then I went to Penn State and
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I quickly got involved with the divestment movement and I end up
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leading. I got elected.
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President of the black caucus, the represent, all the
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African-American students and I helped lead a A March from Penn
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State to Harrisburg, which is the state capital, couple days,
19:48
102 miles during spring. Very when a lot of classmates
19:52
were off Cancun or whatever. Having a good time, we were
19:56
walking along the highway to get Penn State to divest from
20:00
companies that were doing business, in support of the
20:03
apartheid government, and all of its inhumanity and violence in
20:08
South Africa. And to support some bills that
20:11
were being introduced in the Harrisburg and State To have
20:15
companies reinvest in Pennsylvania companies, it was
20:19
successful. The conclusion is just only 35
20:21
students went on the wall and valid by the, you know, 100 said
20:25
they would but 35 went and the end of it, the governor of
20:29
Pennsylvania. Governor Casey, whose son is now
20:32
our United States Senator. Yeah he wrote a letter in
20:36
support of what we did and mentioned us by name and the
20:40
Board of Trustees voted to divest at the next meeting.
20:44
Well, that's something that age Seth to make you feel like
20:47
you've made that type of effect and a college environment and
20:51
then in the real world. Yeah.
20:53
And then despite a lot of adverse publicity and death
20:58
threat for being a president of the black caucus and wanting the
21:02
school to invest in in efforts and programs so that the school
21:09
could reflect the population of the state of Pennsylvania.
21:14
And to have more African American students and faculty.
21:17
I got elected president of the entire undergraduate student
21:19
government representing all 37,000 students at Penn State.
21:24
When I was, there is amazing. Really is that was great.
21:29
And you know, again I always had in me this fear of rejection and
21:35
abandonment. Yeah.
21:37
And you know I never considered myself an alcoholic but I guess
21:42
everybody all the guys in My football team after practice
21:45
after football games, we won. We are, we had Taste of beer and
21:49
a 10th State. Everybody.
21:50
It seemed you know, binge drinks been is drank non-stop college,
21:57
kids, do, right. And when I went to law school, I
22:00
had a wonderful experience at Georgetown, law school.
22:03
I was accepted into a program. I was a public interest law
22:07
scholar. And I loved living in DC.
22:12
I love Georgetown law school. Everything I had to protest
22:16
against at Penn State that do any of that Georgetown thing.
22:22
I just And it gave me an opportunity to go to mass at
22:25
lunch right there at the school. So I really enjoyed that
22:30
experience. But I wasn't sure what I wanted
22:33
to do when I grew up. And I had a law professor, and
22:37
he said, God, Rest his soul. He said, Seth, I was in the
22:40
criminal justice clinic, so I was representing.
22:42
People that were Indigent and excuse of crumb.
22:45
He said, Seth, as a young black man, you should go back to
22:48
Philadelphia and be a public defender because you understand
22:51
the Criminal Mind. Uh-huh.
22:54
It was like Archie Bunker giving Lionel Jefferson back and a
22:59
couple bit weird. Yeah.
23:02
What are you mad? Well, yeah and but I said, you
23:05
know what I learned from that experience that the person with
23:08
the most discretion in the criminal justice system, other
23:12
than the police officer who's actually out on the street that
23:15
comes into contact with people originally.
23:17
Yeah, this was the most discretion and power is the
23:20
young assistant DA that's deciding whether or not to
23:24
approve charges whether or not to approve a warrant an arrest
23:29
warrant or a search warrant. So I said you know, while I'm
23:31
being too. Assistant district attorney so
23:33
that I can help reform the broken racist classes, criminal
23:39
justice system. While the same time standing up
23:42
for the victims of crime. So might they be the champion of
23:45
the victims of crime? And so I became an assistant
23:49
district attorney and I did that for 10 and a half years
23:52
processing, everything from low level retail, theft and
23:55
possession cases for year. I prosecute adults who committed
23:59
crimes against sex crimes against kids.
24:01
Yeah. I prosecuted you, man is a
24:04
homicide, shootings, kidnapping. This is Lori list.
24:08
I've read up on you, Seth. You had some big cases and
24:11
meaningful cases throughout those ten and a half years.
24:15
You said, you had a military background, and how did that
24:19
work itself in OB then? So I told you I, as a result of
24:24
my allergy to qualifications skills, I received the medical
24:32
discharge from West Point and that failure that sense of there
24:36
was something always nagging at me that I didn't complete that
24:39
thing. Yeah.
24:41
And so, after getting my law, license and serving the District
24:46
Attorney's office, I got married in 1996, and my wife.
24:51
My then wife already had a daughter.
24:53
I later adopted. Her And I wanted to remain an
24:58
assistant, district attorney, and I wanted to find ways to
25:01
supplement and complement my income without leaving the DA's
25:04
office. Yep.
25:06
I began teaching as an Adjunct professor at Penn State
25:09
Abington. And I also, I got a direct
25:13
Commission in the United States Army, as a Jag officer become a
25:18
lawyer in the Army, that's very cool.
25:21
Well, I got a direct commission and I began about 15 years in
25:25
the We reserved so one weekend the month that's they tell you
25:29
they tell you it's one weekend a month but after 9/11 and the war
25:34
the war on terrorism. Yeah.
25:36
It was much more frequent than that.
25:38
Absolutely. But I really appreciate the
25:41
opportunity to serve. I served as a prosecutor in the
25:44
Army. As a defense attorney, I
25:46
provided legal assistance to soldiers and their dependents.
25:50
I was an operations lawyer just a great experience.
25:55
I transferred to the Pennsylvania Army National Guard
25:57
for like the last four years. I was in three or four years.
26:01
I served as a senior defense counsel for the 28th Infantry
26:06
Division of the Pennsylvania Army National Guard's.
26:08
I was like the head public defender for now.
26:10
Me the vision. So, just so wonderful.
26:13
That's a crazy thing about your you're reading up on you.
26:17
Seth, is that you did so many different things and you are a
26:21
fairly young, man. I mean, the things that you did
26:25
and the effect you were having and that time, was it always in
26:31
your back of your mind that you wanted to run, is district
26:34
attorney. Yes.
26:37
So I really fucking a lot of little kid.
26:39
I wanted to be the Mayor. Okay, absolutely.
26:42
Okay, I worked on Wilson. Good campaign, we became the
26:46
first African-American mayor in the city's history and I just
26:54
thought that would be a be able to help people and to solve
26:57
problems. And that's kind of my goal.
27:02
I wasn't sure what I wanted to do or how I would navigate all
27:05
of this but you know I just as a result again of President of the
27:10
civic association and town watching my neighborhood.
27:14
Note again, it wasn't is part thinking that that is a stepping
27:18
stone to Emperor, but a way to serve, and evolved on learn from
27:24
that, I made connections with people.
27:26
Sure. And found other ways to serve in
27:28
my church. Yeah, you national service in
27:32
the Army, you're my legal career and providing advice and doing
27:36
things, many things of course or just helping.
27:40
Visuals and Anonymous ways. So it was just an amazing
27:45
experience. I left the DA's office in 2003
27:52
after 10 and a half years. Because my predecessor had
27:57
announced that she wasn't going to run for re-election.
28:00
So in Philadelphia you can't be an assistant DA and run for da.
28:03
So I went I started working in private practice of the Great
28:06
Law Firm. I did personal injury and some
28:10
criminal defense work. What was that liner?
28:12
What was that? Like, after kind of switching
28:14
jumping on the other side of the fence of things and that time of
28:17
year career? Well, it was for a purpose.
28:21
I knew what I was trying to do was interesting, just having
28:24
clients. I experience it while I was in
28:26
law school, but no, people really expect to pay a lot of
28:31
money that there's gonna be no consequences to their behavior,
28:37
right? Which is no.
28:39
So, that was a learning experience, but just learning
28:43
the business aspect also of a law practice was eye-opening.
28:48
Yeah, I have one guy, famous guy at the law firm in Ted share and
28:54
his quote was It ain't about the money, it's about the money.
29:02
It's funny but I understood what he meant, you know. but I, you
29:08
know, Left the DA's office and I began the process of creating a
29:16
political action committee making all the network that was
29:18
necessary. I ran against the incumbent, I
29:21
only raised with 150,000 dollars.
29:24
She raised and spent over a million involve me everything
29:27
everything but the Son of God but II got 46 percent of the
29:31
vote, I almost be here. Yeah I'm running on.
29:35
How old would you known at that time?
29:37
Seth, when you did that. Had to be a young man.
29:41
I was 40. What are yours old?
29:43
Yeah, right. I was 40.
29:46
I think I've checked but I got elected.
29:50
I was 38. I think that's actually I was 38
29:54
but I won when I was 42. So I ran again for years later
29:58
she didn't run. It was a very crowded field in
30:02
the primary of five candidates and I won and then I want to
30:07
November with 75%. Percent of the vote and I became
30:10
the first African-American district attorney in the
30:13
history. Not only of the city of
30:15
Philadelphia but the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
30:17
What do you think about? What was going through your mind
30:20
when and 75% of the vote and an election like that, where I
30:25
wanted him or the other 25%? What were they thinking?
30:35
So I began, you know, it's an office of 600 employees and
30:42
annual budget, exceeding, 55 million dollars.
30:48
And so, you know, I was, I tell people, I was always, I think I
30:51
was prepared, strategically, sure.
30:54
And operationally should be the yay for my military experience.
31:00
All the leadership things in the community and the church I was
31:03
in charge of the church Carnival committee.
31:05
The Parish. Pastoral Council all those
31:08
things. I wasn't prepared emotionally.
31:14
I don't think, okay, for the responsibility of being the da.
31:21
And by that, I mean, I'm a person may be as a result of the
31:26
adoption. And I'm a people pleaser.
31:29
Yeah. And I want to, I don't want to
31:32
upset people. So it's good to have a number
31:38
two, you know, your first assistant or someone in the
31:41
chain of command that. Is that right harsh?
31:44
No person. But you know, so that coupled
31:49
with as a political candidate where you have to be part of a
31:55
partisan, elective process, you have to raise money.
32:00
And by raising money, you know, to raise a hundred thousand
32:05
dollars, let's say, right? You can either talk to a, you
32:09
know, a thousand people that give you a hundred bucks.
32:14
Britain called a couple people that can give you a lot of money
32:17
so he's spending more time I to spend every Monday half of every
32:21
Monday. This is raising money, having
32:24
fundraisers and then raising money.
32:27
I just can't call you one day and say, hey can you give me
32:31
twenty five hundred dollars. I threw call you on your
32:34
birthday in February. I've got to see how, you know,
32:38
you invite me to your house. I got to go and go to your kids
32:41
Bar Mitzvah or bat mitzvah or back.
32:43
Prism, or whatever. So I began really thing a lot
32:47
easier with my friends. Sure.
32:50
Or maybe they weren't. Maybe they were.
32:52
Maybe they had ulterior motive. Yeah, you get in a position like
32:56
that. You you don't know for sure.
32:58
I mean, you don't care. No.
33:00
All right, and with my predisposition to wanting
33:04
friends and wanting approval, it was not the best combination as
33:10
the time and I didn't despite what I thought I was doing for
33:15
my own mindfulness and it wasn't enough and Couple that with the
33:21
stress of being a politician in a city that is known for.
33:25
It's just dirty Cutthroat, politics, having a staff of 600
33:31
people. Who at the time, since I had
33:34
left in 2003, came back in 2010. Many of the employees were my
33:39
former colleagues. Sure.
33:41
Who good? Or bad had issues.
33:46
And then you take into it, a responsibility of deciding,
33:52
which cases are going to ask for the death penalty, right?
33:56
The reforms that we have to make dealing with the Press dealing
34:00
with, you know, cases that they've made documentaries and
34:04
movies about like Kermit Gosnell who was running, a not only is
34:07
it illegal pill Mill, but an illegal abortion clinic.
34:13
You know, I was the first district attorney in American
34:15
history. To prosecute the hierarchy of
34:18
the Catholic church for shielding, pedophile, priests.
34:21
I read that. Yeah.
34:23
Which you know, it's no coincidence and you're restless,
34:27
and I was Catholic. Correct.
34:28
And that led to, and no coincidence.
34:32
Seven of the charges that were brought against me were related
34:34
to the Archdiocese of Philadelphia.
34:38
Right? So as a result of that, I my
34:44
father passed away in 2001. He was my best friend.
34:48
So, he didn't get to sleep the election.
34:50
Then you get to see the election.
34:53
I didn't have a person to be able to talk to.
34:56
I was the only child. I didn't know who to trust.
34:59
Yeah. And so unfortunately, I began
35:02
gradually to trust this guy named Jack Daniels a little
35:06
more. And a guy named Martini who will
35:11
had a friend named extra dry vermouth.
35:14
And so I began the numb myself from a lot of the stress.
35:20
Yeah. It's like your Escape that and I
35:23
tried, I thought, you know, I had a daily cigar which I
35:27
thought was, you know, both my grandfather's smoke and was my
35:32
way of kind of like decompressing.
35:34
Sure. And but there were Healthier
35:38
ways to deal with stress and the anxieties and the things that I
35:43
was dealing with. But all of those things was your
35:46
at that time. Seth was your wife kids,
35:49
everything. Good at home, or were they
35:51
thinking you were under a lot of stress and you were, you know,
35:54
out in the world of trying to conquer and but stressed in the
35:59
real sense? Well, I mean, I tried to do what
36:02
I thought was, I was always, I went to every class trip.
36:07
You're plugging all the parents things.
36:09
I was a coach of daughter's softball team, 7th and 8th grade
36:14
girls basketball team. Yeah, t wall, all those that
36:18
are, you know, yeah, I tried as much as possible.
36:21
I'm sure if you were to talk to them, of course, they were
36:24
things that I could have done much better, which I recognized.
36:28
And, you know, I think my ex-wife would have said that I
36:36
was concerned about doing the gardening outside and the
36:39
backyard. Yeah, she was more concerned
36:41
about the inside the house. Well, she thinks that the
36:45
metaphor of what I was concerned with the exterior things and not
36:50
as much the family. There might be some Merit to
36:52
that, dude, I'm caught more. I like doing gardening.
36:56
Sure. I've like, cutting the grass and
36:59
I found that therapeutic. Yeah, you know.
37:02
So but You know, so as being the da, I started to deal with that
37:11
stress and began making many enemies, Prosecuting people
37:17
getting into conflict with the attorney general over a
37:20
significant issue. Prosecuting the church the
37:24
Archbishop of Philadelphia shampoo and I were in a public
37:29
battle. and he even told my pastor not to give me communion,
37:35
well, not for a theological reason, but just You know, out
37:39
of his own personal issue. And so all of that began to
37:46
Skyrocket. And when you combine the enemies
37:50
that I had made with the unforced errors of, you know, I
37:55
got divorced, I was trying to maintain my lifestyle of keeping
38:00
a house that my children and I lived in keeping them in private
38:04
school. The same private school that I
38:06
went to write either as a result of Catholic guilt or narcissism.
38:11
I want to have my kids. Go to the same school.
38:13
I went through sure. I get it live in a great house.
38:17
Do all the things that I, my parents sacrificed for me.
38:22
And so I was living beyond my means but like just paycheck to
38:27
paycheck. Yeah.
38:29
And I had as a result of my position and life, I had a lot
38:34
of friends that were extremely wealthy Who would say, hey Seth,
38:41
take your kids down to my house down the shore or hey, we're
38:46
going to San Diego to our house for the week.
38:49
You want to go? I can't afford that.
38:51
I do we got points in it. Black Card they're going to
38:54
expire in October and they're going to go poop.
38:57
So come on what is this better house?
38:59
Yeah. Okay so I should have reported
39:02
all of those gifts and as a result of my own hubris
39:06
arrogance laziness It's neglected, all of those things I
39:11
didn't. And let me ask you something
39:14
Seth because I think a lot of people get because it's, you
39:17
know, it's something you find in the news quite a bit to its I
39:20
don't think people are really familiar with how that works if
39:24
I give you gifts and you report those gifts, disclose those
39:29
gifts then, does it matter how many gifts you get Well, every
39:35
jurisdiction and and Locale is different, okay?
39:39
Well, in Philadelphia know, I can get unlimited gift.
39:42
I could have received just had to disclose it but I just had to
39:46
disclose them. Yeah.
39:48
So that. Yes, the public for transparency
39:51
to make a decision, right? If if the if Specter member
39:57
Specter, that was the group that the organized crime group, ed,
40:01
James Bond was always a After right, Goldfinger and all those
40:06
guys, it's Spector was giving district attorney, William.
40:12
A lot of money on thousand dollars, it's kind of a big
40:15
deal, awful for the public to know, sure what the drug cartel
40:21
or Specter or, you know, Brent Cassidy is giving Seth Williams
40:27
money. Yeah, so that the public can
40:29
then make the decision. Well words, okay.
40:32
Okay, or whatever the reason is. And so then I'm went and I
40:39
Negotiate with the city, I wanted to come up.
40:42
Those Seth, I mean, how does something like that?
40:44
Come up? How do, how do you, how do, how
40:48
does the office or the government in?
40:51
Auntie know that you haven't disclosed?
40:53
Is it a secret investigation? Did you know, an investigation
40:56
was going on? Like how did the nightmare
40:58
start? You know, I have been the
41:00
Inspector General. So I knew what was necessary and
41:03
so I support all my gift. But every year I would just put
41:08
I would It's no gifts. I thought well I like the most
41:13
if I I was taught in my mind incorrectly so I'm not denying
41:18
that right defense attorney. They had cases before me was
41:23
giving gifts to the DA. I said that should've been
41:26
something. I should report it, but that
41:28
never happened. So I thought the gift from my my
41:33
daughter's classmate of going to their house down the shore.
41:39
My daughter, babysat somebody, and they're like, let's go to
41:42
San Diego or my then girlfriend gave me a used Rolex, watch or
41:49
whatever. Everything had to be disclosed
41:52
regardless, right? And you would have $50 yeah from
41:55
a other than a sibling, a parent or a spouse or child needs to be
42:03
reported, so I should have done that but there was no quid pro
42:07
quo. Nobody got Anything from me.
42:10
Yeah. But you know that was a dispute
42:13
between me and the federal government but the dispute was
42:16
as a result of people that I that were enemies of Mind,
42:19
people that had to be. Either employees that were
42:24
disciplined. The the Catholic Church my
42:30
predecessor is I all these Imaging.
42:33
Sure. And as just, you know, I have to
42:37
fire an employee for something that she did and then so then of
42:42
course, she has to go and try to spin something to the, the
42:48
Attorney, General, the FBI one employee, we had to step up.
42:52
We had to discipline him because he had sexually assaulted there
42:56
was an allegation of sexual assault and we disciplined him
43:03
and he said that if he didn't get the specific job, he had
43:06
back that he's going to drop dime on me.
43:11
And so this Domino began and originally the FBI was
43:16
investigating me for what they had been told was having ghost
43:21
employees. So they put me down at that was
43:24
not true, but that's once they do.
43:27
There's a great book that we spoke about called three
43:30
felonies a day. Yeah, I'm with the author's
43:33
name. Oh man, Silverman rapper,
43:38
something like that. I'll put that.
43:41
I'll put that in the show notes to because it's a good book,
43:43
right? But you know, the lesson is that
43:48
If the federal authorities want to prosecute, anyone they have
43:54
the resources, and the ability to take something before a grand
43:58
jury, where you might not have had any Criminal Intent.
44:02
No, no men. Sreya for Crime, but something
44:07
did happen. Yeah.
44:09
And they can get almost anyone indicted because you don't have
44:13
a defense before a grand jury. What's most simple?
44:17
You and I Talked about this set the other day.
44:19
Most people don't know that when you hear a grand jury assume
44:22
that both sides are represented Correct.
44:26
And so, you know, I was indicted for about seven charges for
44:31
driving, my city vehicle for personal use.
44:36
Which I knew as the Inspector General, it's different.
44:41
But I was like a water department employee that took a
44:43
water truck to go take the kids to the mall.
44:48
I had a vehicle a Chevy Tahoe that was outfitted with lights
44:52
and sirens and I had 24-hour police protection.
44:58
And two officers went with me everywhere I went Well, there
45:01
was a big story about us having spent so much money on overtime
45:06
for the security detail. and I just also just for the sake of
45:11
sheer speed. If my daughter is at the last
45:17
minute, remember they left their lacrosse stick in school?
45:22
Instead of me having to call and have the security guys come get
45:26
me and take me. I'll just take the vehicle
45:30
myself because it has been sirens and I could get on the
45:33
radio and call, there's no problem.
45:35
I thought I was solving and I was being a good fiduciary.
45:42
Good Financial Stewart, right? And then they were able to tell
45:48
the grand jury that I should have used security or times.
45:52
I shouldn't have used security and I got indicted for that
45:56
underwire. Frog is my secretary emailed my
45:59
schedule to my staff. There was you're armed and
46:03
actually that ended up being your charge, wasn't it wire
46:06
fraud? Well, those were some of the
46:09
charges I ended up. As you mentioned, I went on
46:12
trial. If I'm negotiating, I should
46:15
have made. I should report of my gifts and
46:17
I didn't, I negotiate with the city, but I thought was a more
46:20
than fair penalty and settlement for that.
46:26
The feds had said that they were going to pull back if I did that
46:28
or fine ounce. I wasn't running for
46:30
re-election, all which I did, but then after President, Obama
46:36
left office, and before President Trump was appointing,
46:39
the new US attorney than that, that in.
46:43
I was indicted. Lighted.
46:45
And so, yeah, so that's what happened.
46:49
But I went on trial, and during the second week, we were given
46:53
offered to plead guilty to one count.
46:55
And I ended up pleading guilty to one count of a violation of
46:59
the travel Act. So friend took me on a trip and
47:05
they said as a result of him taking me on the trip, it was
47:07
part of his idea to befriend me so that I could help him out to
47:15
you. Got some, you got a big
47:16
sentence. I mean that the overall sentence
47:18
that, you know, you you went to trial, you like you said, you
47:22
had some good days and then a bad day and, you know, plea, I
47:26
didn't one of the things you told me, which I thought was
47:28
interesting was, is that you were going through this, and in
47:31
your mind, Your attorney says well you can choose to you know
47:36
they get you on one of these counts.
47:38
You could see your daughter's when they're out of high school
47:43
or you can see him later in there after they get out of
47:46
college and Beyond. And you know that's that's a lot
47:49
for a dad to think about too is you remember the longer life and
47:55
your world? That how does it all evolve from
47:58
this point, right? At this moment in this courtroom
48:02
It was a young prosecutor. I didn't think anyone would ever
48:05
plead guilty unless they were guilty, right?
48:09
And, you know, in Federal in the federal system, 97 percent of
48:15
all people that are indicted, please don't wait and I can
48:21
assure you that. Not all 97% of the people that
48:25
are charged are guilty, right? I was in prison with people that
48:29
had been their wives, were the subjects of Investigations.
48:34
And then, as a result of that, to put pressure on the wife,
48:37
they charged the husband with something.
48:38
Yep. That's, you know, or, you know,
48:42
I thought, as a young prosecutor, what I was doing,
48:44
Prosecuting people who, every day in Philadelphia cars are
48:48
being stolen, fires are being started, people are being raped
48:53
homes, being burglarized by people being shot.
48:56
People are being murdered. Most federal crimes.
49:05
It's just something that someone has decided we're going to go
49:09
after this thing. Yeah, right.
49:12
Well, you're right because most of all most violent crimes
49:15
unless they've gotten over state borders.
49:17
They're there. They're contained within the
49:18
state. Correct.
49:20
Why you see? There's so many drug dealers in
49:22
the federal system because by the nature of their business,
49:25
it's across the state lines. Yeah, that's what I thought
49:29
before, I went to federal prison.
49:31
Yeah, but the majority of the men that were in prison with me
49:36
were there for selling drugs and those that were there for the
49:40
majority of them were there on ghost drug taste?
49:44
Absolutely. Absolutely.
49:46
I never heard of until I went to prison in state court if I'm
49:50
going to be the da proving that Brent sold drugs, at the point
49:56
of witness, That saw him make some sort of hand-to-hand
50:00
transaction or delivery of something.
50:02
Exactly. To show that he receives some
50:05
sort of compensation or something for that.
50:08
And we have to recover the drugs that we think he transferred and
50:13
test them and show that in fact, they were a controlled
50:16
substance, right? With you all of that Beyond A
50:19
Reasonable Doubt. Every part of that 360 degree
50:23
circle of evidence, In federal court, for the most part, the
50:28
drug dealers, they prosecute, our people that beat a lot of
50:32
lower cases in the state court and they will indict them based
50:39
on a telephone conversation or someone else.
50:44
That said, well, here's the conversation between Brent and
50:47
Seth, hey, Bret, how you doing? Yeah, I'm good.
50:51
Yeah, I'm thinking about getting some Some poodles, I don't know,
50:56
maybe a Rottweiler, maybe some huskies.
50:59
You got Huskies? Yeah.
51:01
Yeah. I got lots of huskies.
51:02
I'm really on. That's all I'm doing now.
51:04
And Huskies Sam. Would you still Huskies for
51:07
about a thousand apiece? Okay.
51:09
Well, let's, let's talk about some more meet me down at the
51:13
Wharf tomorrow at noon, and maybe I'll get some huskies from
51:19
you. So with that, basically they go
51:22
to a grand jury and they say, this is Seth asking Brent to
51:27
drug her, kilos of heroin, which go for a value of x and due to
51:33
the amount that he was going to buy, it means this and then they
51:37
get the grand jury with the expert, testimony of this person
51:41
from the DEA to continue to indict me for the sale of
51:45
Narcotics, even though no narcotics were ever recovered.
51:49
Maybe it was Seth just selling woof tickets, just talking big,
51:54
maybe they were going to be a drug deal.
51:55
I don't know what's right? They're not of ambiguities and
52:00
that's the majority of guys in federal prison.
52:02
I want to talk to you about the Seth because you are definitely
52:07
the first person I've ever had on this show that was that had
52:10
the career that you had and walked into a federal prison.
52:16
What can you walk us through that?
52:19
How was what, what was that? How?
52:21
What was going through your mind?
52:23
Well, I didn't have time to prepare for it because on the
52:27
evening of June 28th, I decided at the result of my attorneys
52:32
advocacy that I should accept this offer.
52:36
I told my daughter's that night, I told the ex, you know, the
52:40
girlfriend I told ex-wife all, you know And I've been told that
52:48
I'd be able to remain on bail. Sure.
52:52
You know, I think that would be the case.
52:53
I'm sure your how long did you have.
52:55
While this case was going on the investigation up to the point
52:58
where you're thinking, I'm going to play a couple years.
53:01
Yeah, exactly. Right.
53:04
I got indicted in March and this is now June I'm not a Flight
53:09
Risk, right? Had gone anywhere.
53:12
And going anywhere. And I thought I had the whole
53:15
summer to get my Affairs in order as we say, sell the house
53:21
box, up my belongings, pick my daughter's, the therapy have
53:25
time just to hang out with them before I went away.
53:30
I went to court, I entered the plea, much to my surprise, the
53:35
judge decided to revoke my bail immediately and I was handcuffed
53:39
in court. Take an underground
53:43
strip-searched, given an orange jumpsuit and placed in solitary
53:47
confinement for five months, what's going on?
53:49
In your mind, on that moment? My head was just swimming with,
53:55
I just couldn't imagine what was going on.
53:58
How did this happen to me? And again if it hadn't been for
54:04
going to West Point on the 1st of July 1985 for our day
54:09
reception day and going through boot camp and the Army at West
54:13
Point and being a soldier for all those years you know that
54:19
really prepared me for that day. and then, you know, I tell
54:25
people all the things that I lost Reputation, salary, savings
54:31
law, license, pension Liberty time with loved ones is when I
54:38
lost everything. But I learned that when God was
54:42
all I had God was all I needed. And that's what got me through
54:47
the worst. Nightmare of my life was just,
54:52
you know, a friend told me Brian Lynch, who had also served in
54:57
the Army and he He was my campaign manager.
55:00
I first ran little don't try to figure out how you're going to
55:04
get through 60 months is right? Is that how do you eat an
55:10
elephant pieces of time? It's one one.
55:14
Small bite at a time. So I began reading every type of
55:20
book, you can imagine. And I came across a book called
55:25
Born Again. By Chuck Colson, okay, where he
55:30
had served as a special adviser and counsel to President Richard
55:34
milhous Nixon and as a result of his own investigation, he got
55:39
indicted and he found himself in federal prison.
55:43
And there's a great passage that I always think about things on
55:46
page 316 well. Yep. and when I read this
55:54
because my friend Brian Lentz, sent this to me while I was in
55:57
solitary, and like, despite You know, my differences with the
56:05
disagreement I had, on my culpability or mints red with
56:08
the charges, the feds brought against me.
56:10
Yeah, we're that Chuck Colson said we're so true.
56:15
He said I was in prison because I had to be there.
56:19
An essential set a price. I had to pay to complete the
56:24
shedding of my old life and to be free, to live the new.
56:30
Let's do here. He was preparing me.
56:34
Casting me for the future, perhaps.
56:38
But for what purpose now, so I read that I get chills thinking
56:42
about that, I never would have chosen to be there in prison.
56:49
It was not a part of my life plan, like I planned everything,
56:52
just I thought I was making a plan, but right, we make plans
56:58
and God laughs. And I was where.
57:04
God wanted me to be. A guy in solitary one day.
57:10
Told me he didn't commit suicide.
57:15
Because of me. Well, he's he, I didn't know
57:21
him. I was one hour a day.
57:23
I got what's called wreck where they would take me to my own
57:27
like FPC. A Cyclone Fence dated, you know,
57:32
size of a parking space area that still had a covered roof
57:36
but you know, chain link fence all around me.
57:40
And he said, Mr. Williams might speak to you.
57:44
I was like sure you have a thick Nigerian accent.
57:47
And he began telling me how he was MBA from Brooklyn
57:52
University. He had a finance degree.
57:55
He was in real estate. He was a son of a Nigerian
57:59
Diplomat. He had never been in trouble in
58:02
his life he had five kids and a wife but he had imparted some
58:07
sure real estate transaction in New York City.
58:10
All of the other people went to the lawyer's first.
58:15
He end up getting through the guy who Oh, the Hot Potato, you
58:19
got prosecuted. He finally turned himself in.
58:22
He's in the Detention Center, awaiting his plea.
58:28
And some kid wanted to use the toilet in his cell started, a
58:32
fight, his big bandage over his head and he's telling me this
58:36
story. And he said that he's been found
58:39
himself in solitary confinement as a result of that fight.
58:44
And it was bad enough that he thought he had disgraced his
58:48
whole family and brought shame upon them.
58:50
But now being in solitary confinement for a week it was
58:53
just too much for him and he's instead he decided to take his
58:56
own life. Hit, rock bottom, it hit rock
59:00
bottom. and he said, at that moment, he written his family,
59:04
his letter And he put in the envelope.
59:10
But before the correctional officers could take the
59:12
envelope. He saw them walking me through
59:15
the hall and they always knows. Correct jobs.
59:17
They had their arms and my shoulders.
59:20
I'm handcuffed behind my back walking through the whole like
59:22
I'm Lex Luthor or Hannibal Lecter has murdered several
59:26
people. Right?
59:28
Right. And He said happens, mr.
59:33
Williams. He has much lost much more than
59:36
I shall ever have yet. He is still standing.
59:40
If he doesn't survive social, I was like, wait a minute, you
59:46
gotta orange jumpsuit just like you I said, I don't know what
59:51
you're talking about, he said, no, because you help other
59:56
people you haven't given up hope.
1:00:00
You are respectful your humble because of you, my five children
1:00:06
still have a father. My wife still has a husband and
1:00:10
had to affect you in a powerful way of him.
1:00:13
Saying that then I began to see my life in a different
1:00:15
perspective. It wasn't through the lens.
1:00:17
Everybody was telling me to read the book of Job in the Bible
1:00:19
Jobe lost everything. But you know the punchline job
1:00:23
is, you know, don't worry about why things happen to you.
1:00:28
Always give honor and glory to God.
1:00:31
It's, it's his show not yours. He's doing what he needs for his
1:00:35
purpose. Okay.
1:00:37
But then as a result of bright a Godot, his name literally means
1:00:42
light of God. Okay.
1:00:44
As a result of him telling me all this, I began seeing myself
1:00:47
through the perspective of a different character in the Old
1:00:51
Testament named Joseph in Genesis, who was the favorite
1:00:55
Child of his father. His brothers were jealous, they
1:00:58
tried to throw him in a pit and they sold them off of slavery.
1:01:03
Remember, Joseph had real pretty coat, right.
1:01:06
His brothers were jealous and they thought he was a favorite
1:01:08
son. He had sold into slavery.
1:01:11
He began the best lathe. And Potiphar's wife said, hey,
1:01:16
you're sexy, you're 17. Basically, I want them that I
1:01:19
want to, I want you. He's like, no, I can't do that.
1:01:22
That'd be an Abomination against your husband, put me in charge
1:01:25
of everything here and an Abomination against God.
1:01:29
So that she claimed that he raped her, so he was falsely
1:01:32
accused and went to prison became the best in me.
1:01:36
And then eventually Pharaoh, pull them out in the prison and
1:01:40
made him. The number two guy, all of Egypt
1:01:42
and he came up with this. The process of rotating, the
1:01:45
crops and, you know, easier it became an economic superpower in
1:01:51
the Middle East. The world is, they know.
1:01:54
The punchline of that story in Genesis 50:20.
1:01:58
Is that what others intended for my harm?
1:02:01
God is used for good and the saving of many lives.
1:02:05
So began singing. You know what, I don't know what
1:02:07
the purpose of all this is for all these things.
1:02:10
I've gone through, have led up to this and prepare me for this.
1:02:14
Yeah. And I became a GI Bill Bryson.
1:02:18
I told you the beginning. Yeah.
1:02:19
Because I wanted to jump into that whole thing with how you,
1:02:22
what were you, what was your because I you know, you five
1:02:25
months and that solitary confinement is a lot of time.
1:02:28
I was with a guy that was I was really close to it.
1:02:30
Leavenworth, we're Greg, who did 16 months and a County Jail.
1:02:37
How did you what was the strategy in your mind going into
1:02:40
prison? How did you live in that unknown
1:02:42
World? Walking through, after going
1:02:44
through five months of solitary? Finally, getting to your
1:02:47
destination. Seth, what where were you as far
1:02:51
as your thinking and how you're going to live your life in
1:02:54
there? Everything is based on just
1:02:58
trying to get through today. Yep.
1:03:01
And preparing yourself for when you get home.
1:03:04
Yep. And a lot of guys don't do that.
1:03:06
A lot of guys just live for today and that's why they get so
1:03:09
scared about returning home. Right.
1:03:13
And I thought well what can I do to use my gifts now?
1:03:21
Help people. How can I reimagine myself?
1:03:28
today, and as I move forward, And to be open to learn from
1:03:35
everyone, right? But how do I get through daily?
1:03:41
A lot of it is by making lists. I recorded everything.
1:03:46
I write down. Everything every book, I read
1:03:51
every letter. I wrote everybody, that wrote me
1:03:53
a letter, I had numbered it. I kept track of things.
1:03:56
I haven't tried to do things to keep my mind engaged.
1:04:00
I would create, you know, those words search games, get four
1:04:05
kids, when we, how to make those.
1:04:08
You know, I was all types of things.
1:04:10
I would make tic-tac-toe games. Instead of my kids, here's my
1:04:15
accidents and that I learn how to play the saxophone.
1:04:19
I learned how to play the piano. I became beginner instructor of
1:04:24
both of those in Morgantown. I went to every Catholic mass
1:04:29
every Catholic, catechism, Protestant worship, service
1:04:33
Protestant, Bible study, you name it.
1:04:34
I was just trying to soak it all up.
1:04:38
I taught GED 19 of my students earn their GED the eyes.
1:04:44
How did that make you feel in there in prison?
1:04:47
Getting these guys into GED world of the greatest recidivism
1:04:55
Reduction Program is an education.
1:04:59
I had talked about my father, doing mortar, who has crimes and
1:05:02
me found myself actually doing it and living it.
1:05:06
Yeah. That's something.
1:05:10
And so it was just as bizarre as it sounds is a very rewarding
1:05:16
experience. I taught classical poetry.
1:05:20
I taught a Workforce Development and I talked spin class.
1:05:25
Also, you know, you ride the bicycle.
1:05:27
Yeah. I talk to you in class and I
1:05:30
started lifting weights every morning with really young kids.
1:05:33
Yeah. And it was just a way of
1:05:37
survival just trying to adapt. Well, that's it's something you
1:05:42
and I talked about Seth that I think is, you know he talked to
1:05:47
you I mean named off all the different things that you lost
1:05:50
and you know, hitting that Rock. Bottom's point where you know
1:05:56
you have to decide whether I'm going to live or I'm going to
1:05:58
die, basically, right. And you have that also moment
1:06:02
where you say, My world has become a bunk bed a locker and a
1:06:09
plastic chair. And from that moment, you know,
1:06:13
like you and I were time that's somewhat liberating.
1:06:15
Because you find in that moment, I can't believe I got here.
1:06:19
I can't believe I'm here, but I can survive it.
1:06:23
I can I can adapt to it and there's something about that
1:06:26
moment that fills you up, was something that you didn't know
1:06:30
you had or you hadn't reached that deep to know that you
1:06:33
needed it. But they did something, right?
1:06:37
And your point, exactly. But the nightmare occurring,
1:06:43
right? Well, you know, I used to have
1:06:46
you told you, I used to love gardening, right?
1:06:48
So I had a great riding tractor, I got every type of weed,
1:06:51
whackers this, that, and the other, I used to, I used to love
1:06:55
grilling, I love grilling, I love the girl, what would my
1:06:57
wife lie has five Grill? She told me that I don't know.
1:07:01
Anything is good fun girls the propane, I got the charcoal, I
1:07:05
got a smoker, I got this and that Well, for thirty four
1:07:11
months, all I had was a locker that was connected to the wall.
1:07:17
Yeah. That was three feet tall 2 feet
1:07:21
wide and one foot deep. And everything I needed was in.
1:07:27
There was right there. Yeah.
1:07:30
So, all these things chasing, I need this.
1:07:35
Thing, you know, like I don't carry a watch.
1:07:37
Now it's not that I like the Rolex watch.
1:07:40
I used to have sure you had meaning because it was, you
1:07:44
know, similar to the one that my father had.
1:07:46
But it had meaning to me, but just looking on the phone tells
1:07:51
me the time. Yeah, I would, I'd hate to be in
1:07:54
the watch business. Now with everybody carrying
1:07:55
around a phone that tells him, what?
1:07:57
Time it is. Yeah.
1:08:00
So, you know, all of these things that I thought I had to
1:08:04
have. I didn't need them.
1:08:07
Yeah. And I was, you know, a false A
1:08:12
false world. I created about stuff that I
1:08:15
needed and discussed it. The why?
1:08:18
Well, let me ask you this Seth, because you did all these things
1:08:21
while you were in there, you were helping people you were
1:08:23
seeing accomplishments. It was filling you up, right?
1:08:26
As you're getting closer to the door to freedom and he went
1:08:30
through a program. The night seemed nine-month
1:08:32
program. I went through that was you
1:08:35
know, you it was a real program that called our depth that you
1:08:40
you have to adhere to. And it's if you live in a
1:08:43
certain place and you do certain things and thinking about
1:08:50
getting out, what were you thinking?
1:08:52
As far as here's Seth Williams before accomplished did all
1:08:59
these lists of things have gone into prison?
1:09:02
I've kind of re-establish myself and my my strength of being able
1:09:07
to help people and do things. What were you thinking about
1:09:10
when you were getting out? What was what Is your thought
1:09:13
process of how is life going to project me out of here?
1:09:18
In many ways coming home and trying to get started again more
1:09:25
difficult than actually being away.
1:09:29
Absolutely. Yeah.
1:09:33
I bought more of the people that I had helped that I had done
1:09:39
things for or people that would recognize.
1:09:43
Here's the guy who was an assistant DA Civil attorney
1:09:48
criminal defense, attorney Army lawyer, and officer elected VA,
1:09:54
I would say more people would come seeking me from my
1:10:00
perspective and advice on crime prevention.
1:10:03
Public Safety. Yeah, that wasn't the case.
1:10:09
You know, so I Thought well, what can I do?
1:10:13
And I really found that I found great joy and value and reward.
1:10:20
And what I learned teaching GED that the majority of the men
1:10:24
that I've taught never had problems getting legitimate
1:10:28
jobs, you know, they were ever supplementing their income with
1:10:32
things that brought them into conflict with the government.
1:10:34
Sure. But they never had problems
1:10:36
getting job. They had problems keeping jobs.
1:10:41
So it's my it was my goal. I said well, if nothing else,
1:10:45
you know? And I've created I have my own
1:10:47
LLC, Second Chance strategies and I advise eyes and I contract
1:10:56
with nonprofits or businesses to create vocational training and
1:11:01
Workforce Development programs, to create a direct pipeline from
1:11:06
returning citizens to Careers love it and no told me the other
1:11:12
day I think is so powerful for so many reasons, Seth because
1:11:17
I'm lucky to be in this chair and get to interview people like
1:11:20
you week after week. And when I hear of something
1:11:25
where somebody has gone through what you've gone through and you
1:11:28
realize that they didn't take your brain, they didn't take you
1:11:30
for a drive and whatever that grit is that made you who you
1:11:35
were as a kid and through college and and, and get through
1:11:38
what you Got through. To then give that journey into
1:11:45
your overall experience and help people, man.
1:11:48
That's got to feel good. Yeah, and you still very
1:11:52
challenging, yeah, but just very recently, things have changed
1:11:57
much for the better, but I will be creating another vocational
1:12:02
training program that not only provides the Technical Training,
1:12:08
but also provides the The life skills and Workforce
1:12:12
Development. The people skills, I refer to
1:12:15
them as the power of skilled people often refer to them as
1:12:18
the soft skills. Yeah, but about you know
1:12:21
Stanford did a study and 85% of the skills that you need in the
1:12:27
workplace aren't the technical skills about how to make the
1:12:30
widget. There are gonna show up on time.
1:12:34
Yeah. How to deal John for it.
1:12:36
Perfect sure. All those things and so on.
1:12:40
I'll be doing that. Also having a resource
1:12:47
specialist social worker, that's there to help people navigate
1:12:53
and remove the barriers that they have to employment and to
1:12:56
housing, getting government documents.
1:12:59
You know? When you come home, you have to
1:13:01
the house, you have to have a job.
1:13:05
You've got to get your Social Security card.
1:13:07
You got to get to her birth certificate but nobody helps you
1:13:11
do any of those things. Know what I always say to people
1:13:14
on this show is it that we're the last of our breed.
1:13:17
The ex-felon is the last of their breed that can be legally
1:13:20
discriminated. Against you got to check the box
1:13:23
that you have this for your job and and they won't rent to you A
1:13:26
lot of times if you have a record, so it's legal and you
1:13:31
have to help people get through that or they do fall back into
1:13:35
that recidivism of the 75%. The first apartment I applied
1:13:40
for when I got home, I got denied.
1:13:42
Yep. after all this you know it happened in your life, you know,
1:13:49
it's and I want to ask you Seth too because having somebody like
1:13:53
you on the show considering what all is going on in our society
1:13:58
and the United States right now with Our system, you know, the
1:14:03
the criminal justice system and what we're seeing, it's in the
1:14:06
news every week, every day, you know, both political parties,
1:14:10
everybody's out there, you know talking what do you think?
1:14:15
What do you think of it all? And what do you what?
1:14:17
What are the ways that it could be better?
1:14:21
Well, we're being sold a false narrative.
1:14:25
And given a false Choice by some extreme left-wing people that we
1:14:31
have to only focus on reforming the system, right?
1:14:39
So the pendulum swings back and forth and criminal justice from
1:14:42
Law and Order to tough-on-crime thright to just being soft on
1:14:46
crime or either it goes back and forth.
1:14:48
Oh yeah, you can watch through the decades.
1:14:50
Huh changes back and forth and swings.
1:14:52
Yeah, well and a friend of mine who used to be the district
1:14:55
attorney of San Francisco, then she became the Attorney General
1:14:58
of California and the United States, senator who happens to
1:15:01
be now the vice president United States Kamala Harris, wrote a
1:15:05
great book, called smart on crime.
1:15:07
I really think the answer isn't being being soft or hard on
1:15:10
trying to be smart on crime with address.
1:15:12
The root causes but you have this is Extreme left-wing people
1:15:19
that are awaiting offices in District, Attorney's offices and
1:15:24
whatnot across the country who have made a false Choice.
1:15:28
It's not reform. The criminal justice system or
1:15:32
provide Public Safety. Yeah, we have to be both, right?
1:15:35
Smartly. Yeah, that would be done
1:15:37
simultaneously. And well the public wants to be
1:15:42
safely. One fewer people to shoot each
1:15:44
other. Right right.
1:15:46
But some of these like in Philadelphia the DEA got rid of
1:15:48
all these programs I had created right?
1:15:52
But you things that they were overly, you know?
1:15:55
Yeah the prisons were there's a disproportionate number of
1:15:59
people in prison for shooting people in Philadelphia that are
1:16:02
black and brown men. That's the reality, it's very
1:16:06
sad. The truth is also that Eighty
1:16:13
percent of the men, shooting each other in Philadelphia are
1:16:15
black and brown men shooting each other, right?
1:16:17
That's a reality as well. So we had to do all, we can to
1:16:21
prevent them from shooting each other, we also have to hold them
1:16:24
accountable for behavior and again it's not the severity of
1:16:29
punishment that changes Behavior.
1:16:32
It's the certainty of accountability like yeah.
1:16:37
Yeah accountability and you know a And it's one of the things too
1:16:43
that I think is important is that people coming out of prison
1:16:47
or not prison creatures, they should not all be taken in one
1:16:51
gigantic barrel and and and treated exactly the same.
1:16:54
There's some people that are desperately trying for a second
1:16:57
chance to make things work for themselves and they hopefully
1:17:03
can find their way through and have you know, you need support.
1:17:06
You know, when you get out, you need people, you need mentors.
1:17:09
Like you're talking about Seth that can help you to the next
1:17:11
step, you know, there. And there's people that will
1:17:14
apply themselves if given that opportunity and, you know,
1:17:17
hopefully that's, that's something that happens is as we
1:17:20
get along here, is that as Society, learns a little bit
1:17:24
more about what's going on in this world.
1:17:29
All these people that go and experience the criminal justice
1:17:33
system, there's quite a few of them, got some talents out here
1:17:36
that can be helpful to society, as a whole and, and, and least
1:17:40
given the opportunity to do that.
1:17:42
Yeah, Seth, let me ask you something that I ask everybody
1:17:46
this but for you. I think it's just an interesting
1:17:49
thing to look at just from everything that's happened in
1:17:52
your life. What do you think your greatest
1:17:55
takeaway from your journey that you've been through?
1:18:01
That all things happen for the good of God.
1:18:06
And that it's all because of him and for him and through him and
1:18:11
that you know I just have a role to play for him and it's not
1:18:17
about what I think is best so is my group that was my greatest,
1:18:23
takeaway is just you know an incredibly incredible spiritual
1:18:30
journey and you know so that was a major part.
1:18:35
I also learned And that people, that I otherwise would not have
1:18:41
met or would not have thought to me.
1:18:45
I thought I was brought up in a great way and I can learn from
1:18:47
everybody, but being in prison really forced me, but some of
1:18:52
the wisest men. Yeah, that logic Asian.
1:18:56
Yeah. And I've learned so much from
1:18:58
them and you've gotten more people are respectful and
1:19:02
prison. Yeah, there's an echo effect.
1:19:05
It's a society respect refined based on hierarchy.
1:19:10
Yeah, respect from where you sit when you're watching TV, Yahoo
1:19:17
getting in line for, for, for lunch to everything is about,
1:19:22
you know, his hierarchy and respect.
1:19:25
And I learned a lot from that. I also learn that.
1:19:31
You don't know what you can survive.
1:19:33
Yeah. Until you're forced to survive
1:19:36
the worst. Yeah.
1:19:38
So true. And so just from a pure
1:19:42
resilience somewhat liberating, right?
1:19:47
The girlfriend is a little say to me you know is it too hot in
1:19:49
here? Let me turn the air conditioner.
1:19:53
Whatever, let me see a warning in me anymore.
1:20:04
I'm just good today. If anybody out there got
1:20:16
something out of this man's share this show, share this
1:20:20
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1:20:23
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1:20:44
There. I'll go back and forth with the
1:20:45
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1:20:47
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I'm selling it in Walmart as I used to say to people when I was
1:20:59
typing e-mails back and forth and Leavenworth, stay strong,
1:21:03
and I'll do the same Seth Williams.
1:21:06
Thanks so much for being here today.
1:21:07
Appreciate the story. Thank you very much.
1:21:10
I'll gladly come back home whenever you want and bridges if
1:21:13
any of your listeners want to get in touch with me, they can
1:21:16
email me. That's for Hope.
1:21:19
And for you know just an ear if that's what they need.
1:21:23
At Seth at Second Chance, strategies dotnet.
1:21:29
And I will put that in the show notes because people reach out
1:21:32
to Seth he's got a story and he can help anything that's going
1:21:37
on if you're stuck. This is the man.
1:21:38
You might want to talk to nightmare.
1:21:41
Success, always good to have another reader on my book.
1:21:49
All right, folks, I'm Mercy, Sisson and out.
1:21:51
Talk to you later. Bye.