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Why They Ghosted: Buyer Psychology for Podcasters · Your Mic

• 0:00
  Last quarter, somebody almost hired speak podcasting to produce their show then they ghosted so I ran the whole thing through an AI model built on today's guests framework and it's spit back a brutal verdict when I wasn't expecting I didn't lose them on price.
• 0:17
  I lost the prospect on psychology and today on your mic I'm joined by Katie Reed. She's going to break down her castle guard framework which consists of four invisible guards in your buyer's brain and it's going to show you how to flip tiny micro nose into clean slime free yeses for your business your nonprofit and yes your podcast.
• 0:45
  Castle Guard is the first buyer psychology thing that didn't feel like a sleazy persuasion trick it actually helped me decode why I deal diet on me and for the your mic listener who's never heard of it where does this thing come from in your story.
• 1:00
  Where this comes from for me I had a 20 year clinical psychology career so that was my whole background was psychology when I moved into the entrepreneurship space obviously I got very interested in how do I transfer my psych knowledge into marketing and I got very interested specifically in buyer psychology.
• 1:20
  And so I had been studying what actually makes somebody buy and what's interesting is when you start getting into the research there are about 16 different areas that are validated by the research that make a person say yes or no on a purchase.
• 1:40
  And when I started digging further into these originally I would go around and I would give talks and I'd be like here's these 16 different areas and you can see people like glaze or you know like nobody can take it she done.
• 1:52
  Exactly like it is way too much like I'm out here nerding out about my psychology charts and they're like oh woman sit down.
• 2:00
  What I realized though in teaching them over time was that actually they fall out into four different categories so let me really quick just summarize the four categories for your listener so that they know what we're talking about.
• 2:16
  So number one what drives a purchase number one is drive so this is emotion this is I hope for this outcome or I'm feeling this pain point or I'm having this fear there is something driving me towards getting a podcast producer for example
• 2:36
  there is something driving me towards whatever it is that your small business is trying to sell your service your product so that is drive that is a first big motivator and to me that's usually the one for most of us in our own psychology that kicks off any purchase right like if I have no drive towards something I'm not even really looking at it it's not going to go too far.
• 2:58
  And that is the one that often were told to really hammer on like oh hammer on the pain points and hammer on the hope for the transformation and so a lot of us get pretty good at articulating that stuff when we're doing marketing.
• 3:12
  And so but that is really just one of four what I call guards that you have to overcome in the client psyche so then the second area is identity and identity of course we know this one this is either does this purchase represent who I am or does it represent my aspirational identity like who I want to become like maybe I'm a nobody podcaster and I want to become a famous podcaster these are these two parts of my identity that I'm looking at right now.
• 3:41
  And of course identity can encompass more than just current identity aspirational identity it can encompass what are the culture and social factors what are we trying to signal what tribes do we like to consider ourselves part of you know is there a sports team that you love you always want to wear their gear like all of those things fold into identity so if you put all your eggs in the identity basket it's a strong one but risk and pattern can still knock you down.
• 4:10
  So risk and pattern are the last two so risk now obviously we understand the concept of risk right so number one risk could be financial am I going to waste money here am I going to get ripped off is this a bad decision is there a cheaper version somewhere am I missing a coupon code on the internet somewhere you know what's the financial risk involved
• 4:30
  but there's also social risk there's also what will people think like what if I buy this and I fail what if I don't succeed there's self esteem risk that we take on in purchases as well and then the last little guard that people do not pay enough attention to but it's huge is what I call pattern
• 4:51
  and so how do you your product your course your program how do you fit into my life into my habits into my workflows into all the different things that I already do am I going to have a big learning curve am I going to have switching friction
• 5:10
  like a lot of times we see this with software as a service type products the switching friction I was working with a bank recently and they were saying how do we get people to come to our bank you can see immediately with that when you think about switching banks you're just all the paper
• 5:25
  what a nightmare all the accounts yeah yeah it's huge and so for that so if I'm advising this bank I'm saying to them every single thing you need to be talking about is how you have the easiest system in the world the switch over
• 5:39
  and you have to really you know but that's that pattern guard people are just going to take one look at that and go I don't like my bank that much but it's such a pain to switch I'm just going to stick with it
• 5:49
  just tolerated they'll just tolerate it exactly and so when we look across the spectrum any one of these four little guards drive identity risk or pattern can derail a sale and I think so often with marketing were taught like persuasion persuasion get the yes get the yes to me I really look at it completely differently I look at it and I go where is the micro no where is the tiny little no because it just takes out one tiny
• 6:19
  little no to derail whatever the sale is and when you diagnose that now like what that bank now you put all your attention on that micro no and now the sales can start coming through because now you've
• 6:34
  cleared that gate in the person's mind.
• 6:37
  So when it comes to risk do you find that financial risk or risk of failure drives the no more what have you what have you seen in your past in your in your work more
• 6:53
  and it's such an interesting question and it's such a big it depends right because sometimes the financial risk is going to be really minor sometimes the fact that the product is not that expensive or maybe it's not that much more than what you're currently paying for already somewhere maybe it's like switching cable services it's gotten similar price.
• 7:10
  So the financial risk might not be that bad for somebody now I do think social risk is a lot of times bigger than we estimate.
• 7:18
  Self esteem risk is a lot of times bigger than we estimate when I previously I used to have my own large coaching certification program that I ran and I knew there's because I knew my clients I knew they would come in with the thought in their head that said what if this works for everybody else and not me.
• 7:37
  And so knowing that I really tried to build a program that had kind of a you know no student left behind type of mentality where there was just a ton of coaching support and lots of guest coaches and lots of availability so that it could mitigate some of that internal risk that would kick up in their minds.
• 7:57
  So it's what if this works for everybody else except for me and that seems just about as dangerous as one comment on one click of an article or what have you about well this is she and I could get this for two dollars that seems just as just as impactful in a bad way.
• 8:20
  Absolutely in a bad way absolutely and that's why I think the brands that specifically go after like these four directions and they specifically look and say okay what are the possible things that might be just kicking up in the back of someone's mind because the thing about the four guards is they fire in all of our brains on every single purchase.
• 8:42
  I mean if you were buying gum in the checkout line those four guards they might just you know look up and glance over and go yeah that's fine gum you know that's an easy one that might be completely fine it fits in their pattern it's low financial risk drive an identity they're like yeah we like to have gum we don't want that breath program some gum you know it's all in there but they do fire every single time.
• 9:04
  And so sometimes like I said they're firing in milliseconds you don't even know it's happening sometimes maybe you're buying a car and maybe it's three months that you're making lists and you're looking at the features and you're doing test and you know you're really trying on all of these different guards.
• 9:22
  I think for most brands for most different types of purchases the levels of the guard are different and people can play with this on my website so that you can get a sense of it we'll put the website I'm sure in the show notes but it's.
• 9:37
  fire psych dot com and you can go there and you can see for different types of purchases like perhaps for yours risk and pattern are going to be bigger guards for you like harder to overcome in that sale for other types of purchases it might be the identity that you really need to sell to or that drive.
• 9:56
  And so you can look at for my category of product what do I assume are going to be the harder guards to overcome like we talked about with the bank they know pattern is going to be their big one right.
• 10:08
  And so you look at that and then you can also look and say what is my hero guard in this situation so what is the guard that the person might actually use to convince the other guards that they should buy this product i'll I did this to myself recently can I give you an example of this.
• 10:29
  You've got the wheels turning yeah we have so lifetime fitness now I have friends in different parts of the country who they love their lifetime gym it's like their whole personality their whole social life they love it so i've heard about these gyms forever.
• 10:44
  For a year there's been one it's literally getting built like a mile from my house i've been watching it go up right down the street right and so I was like oh cool I know all these people that love lifetime i'm going to join lifetime oh when they've got a co working space there this is going to be great i'm going to join lifetime.
• 11:00
  Well they finally published their prices and like my jaw hit the floor because there's also a ten dollar among gym across the street you know lifetime is absurdly expensive in the world of gyms and yet I had spent a year watching this be built my identity had convinced itself i'm going to go to the lifetime i'm going to be the lifetime fitness person that is my new gym that is where i'm going to do my co working all these things.
• 11:27
  And so at first I like get the email with the prices and I sit there i'm like mad i'm like come on they can't be serious you know like this is ridiculous and then i'm talking to my other friend in the neighborhood and she's mad too and we're both mad about it but the problem is my identity guard was so strong right then in my drive guard i really wanted i've been working on it home for a million years like i really wanted a new place to actually go and have the machines again and be back at the gym.
• 11:54
  And so my identity and my drive were very strong and they started reasoning in the back of my mind the different reasons that maybe it would work out and I literally went so far as to email my tax guy and say if I quit my co working space and I move my co working space to lifetime is that a tax deduction.
• 12:15
  Like literally my guard was like okay how can I make this price work in a way and sure enough it is so that's a lucky thing so my new co working space is right there too can I just say how fascinating it is to hear a former therapist rationalize a purchase like this.
• 12:32
  Right totally totally and the funny thing is we all do it and what I find when I start telling people about this that's when I start getting the emails that are like Katie like I was at the freaking grocery store and I realized that the pattern guard was saying this because once you start thinking this way you see it in yourself and it just pops up all over the place it's really fascinating because it's not being made up it's the research.
• 13:00
  It feels like you're breaking us out of a matrix that's right well it's so fun when you actually get to look at your own thinking I say fun as a 20 year therapist you really enjoys looking at people's thinking so maybe it's not fun for everyone but I think it's really fascinating honestly to be able to step back and be like oh that's exactly this is the series of thoughts that I went through making this decision.
• 13:26
  And when you apply that you think everybody on earth does the same things we go through from our own vantage points of course and from the lens of our own values but we go through the same questions the same identifiers.
• 13:41
  Oh absolutely and this is all really fascinating stuff it's buyer psych like psych psychology dot com so buyer psych dot com the link will be in the show notes and at the core of this conversation Katie.
• 13:56
  We are talking about artificial intelligence so this is a prompt that people can use when it comes to operating their business their nonprofit podcast.
• 14:07
  Yeah however they use it and you and I had met on LinkedIn through a post that you had written about which was such a breath of fresh air because it was not the the world is AI sloping oh you kids get off my lawn it was you've got very fascinating thoughts about about the use of artificial intelligence in the business world so how can outside of outside of the killer prompt that you've got for kids.
• 14:36
  That you've got for Castle guard how how can people utilize the power of AI moving forward without losing their soul yeah I love that without losing their soul I love that you know the very first answer I'll give to that question is whatever is truly yours keep it whatever is truly yours keep it so for me writing has always been the thing that I have loved and I think a lot of us.
• 15:05
  Went through the process in the early days of AI being like oh maybe this will help maybe this will go faster maybe this will do xyz and for me it started to be painful for me to try to give away my writing or to try to make it right like me and I was like never mind I'm keeping my writing I'm keeping that.
• 15:22
  But where AI to me is fascinating and is still underused in business is in the fact that it can do something we never ever ever had access before you look at AI what is it it's a thing that basically read the entire open Internet right like whatever is free and available on the Internet it read it read most of the major psychology texts of the world it understands human patterns human behavior
• 15:52
  behaviors human psychology on a level that we just simply never had access to before because we never had no one person could have consumed all that information and then told us what it said.
• 16:05
  And so what I find fascinating is literally that we can use it to understand the thinking patterns of our clients our customers our base whoever we're talking to and so you're right if people go to by our site and sign up not like a pitch to my newsletter but it's a damn good newsletter.
• 16:25
  What I do is immediately I send you several prompts that you can use to understand where your clients your customers might be having one of these guards triggered so that you can find that micro no and then every week I send new AI prompts that are really all geared around using AI for this purpose.
• 16:46
  And if I can just give a tip to the audience I write my prompts assuming that people are not going to be able to hire me and bring me into their company but that maybe you're a solo pranur and you just want to be able to have this information at the beginning of each of my prompts.
• 17:01
  Each of my prompts I would say to you if there is somebody that you're following online and you like their idea or their framework or their website I write my prompts and I literally say to people tell your AI fetch buyer psych dot com read the castle guard framework.
• 17:18
  And now answer the questions from this person's framework from Katie reads castle guard framework that's here and that way you are getting the benefit because the AI reads it and the I was like oh yeah I get this okay cool I'm read this now I understand it and now the AI because we're also close to our own work.
• 17:36
  We can't always identify what might be going wrong or where our messaging is off or where our product or our offer needs a little bit of improvement we're too close to it.
• 17:46
  But we use the pattern matching of the AI and it can step back without any emotions and see it for us.
• 17:53
  And so and I'm telling you if you like anybody's work do that I do that all the time I say fetch so and so tell me what they would say about this tell me from this person's point of view what would they say about this it's a great way to use the system and to there's so much information now immediately available to us like that.
• 18:11
  Oh my goodness let me tell you something Katie at the end of the year and I'm I'm new wish at owning a business I've been a corporate chill for all of my life and my first job was a McDonald's so it's all I've known as corporate America okay so yeah so at the end of each calendar year I do a forecast for the next year.
• 18:37
  And I never thought to do it in previous years but this past December I did it I said you are Alex for Mozie you are my business development officer you are Robert Green you are my business coach nice and then I gave it a really detailed prompt about who my clients are what I did in revenue my profits you know where where can I have gone wrong where do I go where have I gone right don't play Kate me don't bullshit me.
• 19:05
  And that's very important caveat to add to when you're prompted because you don't want a yes person you don't want a yes chatbot so but it's it's amazing to your point that when you add those specific things to a prompt like hey act like this person yeah act like Mel Robbins or act like Katie Reid it really makes a world of difference it does it's fantastic to because you are you're getting a whole new lens on your own work that you wouldn't have been able to probably.
• 19:35
  Hey for an hour of Alex or Mozie still I don't think anybody's going to part that right why you can get that lens on his work his voice and I absolutely love using it that way you can use deep research even and say hey deep research tell me everything that or Mozie ever said about this topic whatever it is and it'll go search every podcast any blog post any writing you don't have the hours to do all of that but now you can get a full report on those.
• 20:05
  Things hand delivered to you so these are the ways that instead of letting AI become a creator for you and sort of absconding your own unique thoughts about it you can use it to pull in all the brilliant minds that have already put a lot out on the internet that you can now pull in and directly apply to your business as if the person's in the room coaching you I've got a very selfish question Katie and that is how do you like to prompt do you type it out do you dictate.
• 20:35
  Into your chat body you use something like whisper flow or whisper flow I love spill the tea I love whisper flow I will say I am a terrible prompter because I will just want to talk and process even though I know it's like not the way that I should be doing it if for anybody out there who has API access there's a great tool if you're using chat GBT and I do not remember the website of it but I'll try to find it and send it to you for the show.
• 21:05
  Notes it's a tool where you can take your big messy prompt and it's a prompt optimizer have you seen this before I have not it's a really cool tool and it's just free through open AI but you can take let's say you have a big messy like multi-step prompt you put it into this prompt optimizer and it will basically rewrite it so that the robot understands it better huh yeah so it's really cool so okay so follow up thought yeah I have listened to a ton of
• 21:35
  Gary V podcast episodes even before the AI revolution but now he's really big on AI and he's talked about how he speaks a 30 minute long prompt and that is how you get an output that is uniquely you and I have to say I love it I don't think I've done a 30 minute long prompt but I may have done
• 21:57
  something between 15 and 20 minutes that's awesome and the result is incredible you've talked about the prompt optimizer but do you really like it like how much better do you like the prompt optimizer versus the raw prompt that you enter
• 22:13
  so for me it depends on the task like if I'm just brainstorming for example where it's more just I want that natural conversational flow to keep the ideas moving that's one thing if I'm building out a system say for a client that they're going to use with their AI on the back end
• 22:32
  then I go into the optimizer because I really want to understand how is the robot thinking in the background because there's all this fascinating stuff when you get into real prompt optimization like if you have a very long system prompt that you're putting in
• 22:46
  there's interesting things like it will wait what it read most recently as more important than what it read in the very beginning of the very long prompt yeah it's fascinating when you get into it
• 22:57
  so one of my other businesses is I have a business called living persona where I take market research I extract the buyer psychology that we've been talking about and I build living personas of the actual segment from the business and from their market research
• 23:16
  and so with those it's interesting because I'm creating a guard railed AI model that has to follow a very specific personality so it has a thinking and reasoning model that I build into it and it has to follow that and because of that it's amazing I will get very different results if I put certain parts of the personality towards the beginning of the long prompt versus towards the end
• 23:42
  or if I let the AI have a little bit more creativity to it then if I'm like no no no no you get no creativity you just got to stick to the rules you know so it's really interesting when you get very deep into that now that typical user doesn't need to know all of that but it is
• 23:57
  that's what I do like about using things like the optimizer is you can start to see the patterns of oh this is how I'm actually going to help the AI think better which can be very helpful especially for people like it sounds like you and I both who like to just dump a lot of information and hope the machine figures it out
• 24:14
  it is very interesting to hear to hear a former therapist say you want to make the robot the AI think better
• 24:23
  yeah yeah it is well and I feel like we're all like I'm not a technical techie type of person so I feel like we're all in this interesting world right now where we're learning this new technology that's going to be here for I'm
• 24:37
  and I'm telling my kids I'm like you got to learn this now this is your whole life there's no there's nothing else now this is your future yes and so I'm like we all have to learn this stuff now and learn where does it fit into my life what boundaries do I want around it in terms of where do I want to learn it
• 24:52
  in terms of where do I want to keep my own creativity where do I want to keep my own thought leadership and thought about different topics that are important to me like what are the things I wanted to help with I find I in the beginning I used to love it for brainstorming
• 25:07
  and now I'm like kind of cooling off on using it for brainstorming I'm going back to doing my own separate from the AI only because sometimes I feel like it'll lead you on a side quest
• 25:17
  and you're like wait how did we get here that wasn't where we started out so okay I want to ask you about is do you think that it's because when you do brainstorm and you get the reply that I asked you okay so
• 25:31
  by the way Katie would you like for me to create a five five step optimization plan and so it's because it's asking you more and more and more the more you input do you think that's why exactly exactly and it just keeps going I actually do think that's why and I think it's funny and if you've watched
• 25:51
  I think Chachi BT is the big one where we have seen their company go into models that basically dropped like clickbait at the end like do you want to know the most exciting thing that anybody ever said about that and you're like well yeah
• 26:06
  if you know and these sort of annoying like Buzzfeed type questions at the end versus just a sort of normal follow-up question versus where it would get you completely wrong like you'd be brainstorming something like a personal topic or whatever
• 26:20
  and it'd be like do you want me to build you an excel spreadsheet you're like what are we talking about here you know it's all over the place
• 26:26
  but I think it's pretty fascinating to see how quickly it can lead you down its way of thinking and I don't know what perplexity is like I like Claude because Claude actually does not tend to do a lot of those leading questions at the end necessarily
• 26:42
  it tends to just give you an answer and then stop and I find Gemini typically just gives you an answer and then stops
• 26:48
  I think one of the best things people can do at this stage of the game is play with all the big ones and figure out like for whatever reason I love the thinking model of Gemini
• 26:59
  and I know it's not one that people go to a lot but there is something about the way Gemini thinks that really works for the way I think
• 27:06
  it's a great check on what you're inputting and what you know like if like let's say for instance I felt at one point
• 27:16
  late last year that perplexity was being too much of a yes bot you know we have yes men in the corporate world I think it's been too much of a yes bot
• 27:25
  so I'll enter all ten prompts that I used for a single exchange about whatever business issue I was going through at that time
• 27:34
  and so I had it into like I guess like a five or maybe probably five or six hundred word prompt and then copy and paste it in the grog
• 27:43
  and it would give me a somewhat similar answer and then I know okay so perplexity isn't just shooting me bull crap
• 27:53
  okay right right you had that something else to tell you okay it's not just totally being a yes man here I like that
• 28:00
  that's a good way to double check it yeah so it's not confirmation bias so to speak because you know that's no I don't think
• 28:07
  I don't think any effective business person wants to wants to be heard yes all the time
• 28:12
  exactly you want that you want the actual pushback of well that's why I like what you did with saying
• 28:19
  like act like you're Alex for most of your Gary V because you know that those are people who just as human beings
• 28:25
  would push back and would tell you what you're doing wrong so I think you're giving the model permission
• 28:30
  to actually behave that way and to push back and tell you what you're doing wrong and we all need I mean this is the way you know
• 28:36
  chat GPT was convincing people they had discovered like new forms of mathematics and all this crazy stuff
• 28:42
  and I think they reigned a lot of that in now but that's what they were getting in trouble for was the constant yes spot
• 28:48
  and oh you're a genius and no one's ever thought of this before yeah I'm sure that's a beautiful primrose path
• 28:54
  that none of us want to walk down so yeah one plus one actually is three exactly exactly
• 29:03
  well well Katie this has been such a fun conversation and I look forward to engaging with you more on LinkedIn
• 29:11
  you're you're so much fun and y'all please check out our website it's Katie read like Katie i.e.
• 29:17
  read like you read a book dot com Katie read dot com and the other website is by your psych dot com
• 29:24
  we're going to link them both in the show notes anything else before we part great and I am excited to keep talking to you more
• 29:30
  and keep the conversation alive I could talk about this stuff all day so for any listener please reach out anytime