Latest / FUTURE OF XYZ / Future of Snow Sports | Mark Sullivan | S4 E4 (Rerelease)
Transcript
- 00:00:04:00 - 00:00:19:14 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Future of XYZ presented in partnership with Rhode Island PBS. This week we are talking about the future of snow sports. And with us is our guest, Mark Sullivan. Mark, thank you so much for joining us. 00:00:19:17 - 00:00:22:25 Speaker 2 Thank you for having me, Lisa. It's quite the honor. 00:00:22:27 - 00:00:43:26 Speaker 1 Well, I have to be really candid about that. The honor is actually ours. We're going to talk about snow sports. But you've been in the field for over 30 years. You started in the early nineties as a professional snowboarder. You grew up on the East Coast. You've lived all over the place. You've been a commentator for the Olympics and for some of the other major events in snowboarding. 00:00:44:01 - 00:01:05:22 Speaker 1 You founded a number of companies who, including an incredible podcast that are all based around snow sports and snowboarding particularly. But perhaps most of all that most people know would be the founder of Snowboard Magazine, which obviously was in 2004. So you've been at this a while. So I think, honestly, that the honor is ours. 00:01:05:25 - 00:01:08:10 Speaker 2 Well, thank you for the kind intro. 00:01:08:12 - 00:01:29:23 Speaker 1 Well, I mean, it's so fascinating because in the course of this time, you've seen a lot of changes. And I want to give us a chance to explore those. But I think as I like to do every week, is grounding our listeners and our viewers in kind of the definition of what the topic is. And I think many of us would assume, like we think about skiing, we think maybe ice skating, hockey. 00:01:29:25 - 00:01:35:16 Speaker 1 But like, there are a lot of snow sports. How do you think about snow sports? 00:01:35:18 - 00:02:00:22 Speaker 2 Well, I mean, from a technical perspective, you know, snow sports are sporting activities that take place on snow. So for me, it's snowboarding or skiing. But I mean, really, that extends out to a pond hockey or ice skating or luge, bobsled, whatever. There's a lot of Winter Olympics sports that are maybe a little bit on the fringe, but certainly those are snow sports as well. 00:02:00:25 - 00:02:10:18 Speaker 2 Yeah, curling, for instance. Not a lot of recreational curlers, but who knows, maybe a little sort of, you know, a pond curling league near you. 00:02:10:20 - 00:02:15:12 Speaker 1 Only if we have winter still. But we'll get to that. Don't want to jump ahead. 00:02:15:14 - 00:02:33:14 Speaker 2 Yeah. So, I mean, I think it's really any kind of like recreational activity you're going to do when it's cold outside or in a cold environment. Maybe that would be like a you know, a I don't know, a 30,000 foot broad brush stroke view of winter sports. But that's not really the way that I define it today. 00:02:33:16 - 00:02:34:08 Speaker 2 I used to think it's 00:02:34:12 - 00:02:36:12 Speaker 1 Dot dot dot. Tell us more. 00:02:36:19 - 00:02:57:00 Speaker 2 Okay. So I used to think that the sport was about progression in terms of like in my life, you know, first I started linking turns and then catching airs and one thing led to another. But it was always about taking these baby steps forward with the sport. And that could be in terms of tricks or jumps or terrain or even like travel and adventure and going to new places I hadn't been to. 00:02:57:02 - 00:03:23:19 Speaker 2 And so it was always about kind of finding this progression. And more recently, I found that winter sports, and through a lot of practice at it, that it's actually kind of a gateway to presence. A lot of people practice yoga to achieve presence. I have been meditating on snowboarding now for 36 years to achieve presence, and I think that's why it resonates with me still to this day after this many years. 00:03:23:19 - 00:03:32:04 Speaker 2 And I see it less and less as a frivolous activity or pursuit and something that actually grounds me in life. 00:03:32:07 - 00:03:53:29 Speaker 1 I love everything you just said. And when we stop recording, I have to share with you that I just got back from Wyoming myself, and the conclusion that you've just drawn is what I was talking to my friends about. So I couldn't agree more, it's powerful. As we think about kind of the sport, I have been really surprised. 00:03:54:00 - 00:04:17:01 Speaker 1 You know, I used to work for Adidas, a sporting goods company, and I've been really amazed, despite climate change, which again, we will speak to, but the category of sports, you know, winter sports, apparel and equipment is actually growing. It's grown quite quickly. The U.S. is the largest market, followed by Europe, followed by Asia Pacific. But Asia-Pacific is the second fastest growing. 00:04:17:06 - 00:04:40:08 Speaker 1 I mean, what's amazing to me about the size of the market growing, almost 10% anticipate over the next eight years and reaching, you know, I mean, it's a fourteen and a half billion dollar business now and it's going to grow 10% nearly. I mean, this is an incredible trend. What do you attribute it to? I mean, from my perspective, it's you know, I don't know. 00:04:40:08 - 00:04:42:20 Speaker 1 I have theories, but what are yours? 00:04:42:22 - 00:05:06:19 Speaker 2 Well, just the I mean, you just asked me this question, I haven't really thought about it, but really what comes to mind first would be just the I'm not sure what the right word would be, but I'll make one up in lieu of that, which is the casualification of the world in terms of, you know, it used to be you'd wear a suit to work and you'd have casual Fridays and, you know, put on your jeans on the weekends or something like that. 00:05:06:19 - 00:05:42:16 Speaker 2 And now it's kind of t shirts and jeans, 24/7 for people. And so really the fashion of winter sports now, it's not just for something you would do as a pursuit or something, you know, you use for that sport. You kind of, it kind of has bled into the rest of your life as well. And the fashion trends have kind of seeped into, seep both ways, both from, it’s kind of gone both ways, like the fashion trends have gone into winter sports and those have kind of added functionality to those fashion trends and spit them back out into the real world where they're functional in the cities and in the country 00:05:42:16 - 00:05:43:06 Speaker 2 and on the mountains too. 00:05:43:06 - 00:05:52:14 Speaker 1 It’s so interesting. I hadn’t thought about that. It's a life, it becomes a lifestyle now, in its own way, whether there's snow or no snow. 00:05:52:16 - 00:06:08:28 Speaker 2 Yeah, and I've always kind of defined myself as a snowboarder of like from a young age. And so, you know, I always saw it as like I was a snowboarder on and off the mountain. I define myself and I kind of had that like look to me like the way I dressed and the way I came across my whole life. 00:06:09:00 - 00:06:09:25 Speaker 2 And so now 00:06:09:28 - 00:06:12:11 Speaker 1 Like skate, like that kind of vibe. 00:06:12:13 - 00:06:32:01 Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think a lot of people now want to show what they're passionate about in their everyday lives. So it's like if you're not wearing a tie and you know, you're not showing off your cuff links or your watch or something, you know, you're kind of like giving people an indication of of what you're passionate about in your real life outside of work. Something like that. 00:06:32:03 - 00:06:51:19 Speaker 1 That totally makes sense to me. I mean, because one of the things, obviously, that is mind blowing about this trend growth and some of your explanation really like sums it up nicely is, you know, we look at, everyone, I’m going to say that almost everyone probably 99.8% of my listeners on Future of XYZ believe in climate change. 00:06:51:21 - 00:07:13:00 Speaker 1 They're probably not a lot of science or climate change deniers who are paying attention to Future of XYZ. That said, obviously weather has always been fluctuating. I mean, you had years in the 1800s when there was no snow, but winter is being affected more than any other season thanks to climate change. I mean, 2023 is shaping up to be just a shocker. 00:07:13:02 - 00:07:27:25 Speaker 1 I mean, I think NOAA, the National Oceanographic Institute has January 2023 as the seventh warmest on record since the mid 1800s. I mean, there's no denying Europe has no snow. The East Coast has no snow. 00:07:27:26 - 00:07:31:21 Speaker 2 There are some octogenarian lawmakers who still deny it. 00:07:31:23 - 00:07:47:04 Speaker 1 Yeah, they're not probably listening, but yes, there are lots of people who deny it, which is completely bananas. But let's just say climate change is real. I mean, how is weather affecting the future of snow sports, in your opinion? 00:07:47:06 - 00:08:18:05 Speaker 2 It is going to have a dramatic effect. In fact, it will probably have the largest hand in terms of shaping the future and viability of winter sports overall. So, I mean, here's some statistics for, you know, we have like current levels of emissions, but that's leading to climate change. So if we keep following the same path that we're on right now, best case scenario, even if we improve it, if we reduce our emissions by half, only 40% of ski areas will be able to open by Christmas by the year 2050. 00:08:18:08 - 00:08:42:13 Speaker 2 That's 2050. That's like our kids, right? And then, you know, by 20- I believe 2090, they're saying that like maybe 15% of areas will have a Christmas. Now, think about this like there are like you know, Black Friday is a big day in shopping. Well, Christmas week is a big week for ski areas. So are the, you know, Martin Luther King Day, President's weekend. 00:08:42:15 - 00:09:11:17 Speaker 2 It's like, you know, 30% of the fire season revenue is made up in a couple of week window for ski areas. And so if, you know, ski areas can't open by Christmas, it will have a large effect in terms not only in terms of like just, you know, them having demand, but also it's like if you're trying to build a new base lodge and a you know, a financial institution looks at like what your, you know, future forecasts are going to be like, this doesn't look so good. 00:09:11:17 - 00:09:29:17 Speaker 2 And so it's going to be harder for those businesses to secure loans. And so what we're seeing is kind of a shortening of the season on both ends. And that's been happening now for years. Right. The the season starts later and ends earlier. And so that's what we're going to see continue the shrinkage of the season over time. 00:09:29:17 - 00:09:56:02 Speaker 2 So by 2050, you'll have a, you know, a pretty dramatic apparent, you know anyone alive today, we'll know it by 2050. They'll see it with their own two eyes. By 2090, you know, they probably won't have ski areas west or east of the Mississippi, just between altitude and just raising of temperatures. It just there won't be enough of a winter season where you have consistency of cold temperatures. 00:09:56:02 - 00:09:57:24 Speaker 2 So right now. 00:09:57:29 - 00:10:07:29 Speaker 1 It's happening in Europe, of course, too where it's all glacial, right. And as the temperatures warm, that's just been hit, even maybe even more dramatically than our East Coast. 00:10:08:01 - 00:10:27:04 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, they really haven't had a season in Europe this year. I mean, they've gotten a couple of storms. And, you know, I think there's like this misconception. People are like, I was maybe you were like, I was in Jackson, it snowed like four feet. It was amazing. Right? And it was amazing and you did get a big storm, I'm sure, because here's what's happening. 00:10:27:07 - 00:10:52:07 Speaker 2 As the climate changes, there's more water vapor in the air. And so when that water vapor, that additional water vapor hits the mountains and compresses over the mountain ranges and as you have cold weather, you end up getting more snow. And so some people are like, this has been a great season, but it still started later, it'll still end earlier, and that trend will continue. Regardless of whether you get a three foot storm or six inches or whatever. 00:10:52:09 - 00:11:20:08 Speaker 1 Well, and one of the things that I think is interesting is it means that the really good skiers and snowboarders or perhaps not the really good ones either are similar to people taking expeditions to Everest and the pictures we've seen of that tourism and then it's negative impact. You have this major, major trend and I know you're really into it of what we call, you know, let's call it backcountry skiing or touring, which is, you know, you're putting on these skis and you're basically hiking up with skins on and then skiing down. 00:11:20:11 - 00:11:36:00 Speaker 1 And this is obviously, you know, seeking out where there is snow, but not necessarily infrastructure or the safety measures. Is that a trend that you see continuing to evolve? And do you think that's because people are I mean, what's the reason for it? 00:11:36:02 - 00:11:59:14 Speaker 2 Well, I think there's a couple of reasons for the rise of that. One was like everyone got kind of locked down in Covid. And so that was like a safe way to get out there and do something in the real world. So I think that kind of like kind of kicked off the trend. But really also, you know, there are these ski pass products that exist today that didn't ten years ago called like the epic pass, the icon pass, the mountain collective pass. 00:11:59:16 - 00:12:30:28 Speaker 2 And so, you know those kind of like group up ski areas and have like one affordable price for a season pass and the epic pass is around $800. I think it's around $1200 for the icon pass, but that will give you a season pass to Jackson Hole and Whistler and you know, every major ski area that you could dream of and what that, there's also been a side effect of that are the crowds and so now that people who want to go to Hunter Mountain also have a Jackson Hole pass in their back pocket, they're going to end up taking a trip out there. 00:12:30:28 - 00:12:53:05 Speaker 2 And so what that has done is created massive, massive, massive lift lines. And so for people like me who've been at it for a long time, it takes some of the fun out of it. When you're standing around waiting or driving to the resort, you know, the I-70 corridor going up to Vail from Denver to take you four or five hours to traverse 60 miles. 00:12:53:07 - 00:13:11:09 Speaker 2 And so, you know, it's changed the experience, I would say. And people are kind of looking for that commune with nature. I used to get that as a kid just riding lifts, I don't know. And now I get it through being in the backcountry. And so I think that is something that more and more people are tuned into. 00:13:11:09 - 00:13:41:28 Speaker 2 But certainly, you know, by backcountry skiing, you're kind of throwing yourself into this environment where you are, you know, in nature. Now, there are other things you have to consider and different skills and all sorts of different factors to take into account. But I definitely see that as a continuing trend going forward. Now, also, the infrastructure ski areas is fixed, the ski lifts aren't getting picked up and moved and you can take your car and go to any trailhead you want and find the snow that way. 00:13:42:00 - 00:14:00:06 Speaker 2 And so, you know, as climate change happens, as seasons shorten, or whatever, you know, places in Connecticut might not have enough snow or Rhode Island your Wagyu valley in Rhode Island just might not have snow in the future. Those lists aren't going to move. But, you know, people could drive to New Hampshire to find snow, maybe. 00:14:00:07 - 00:14:20:03 Speaker 1 Can find some snow. I want to come back to some of this backcountry trends, because you have a lot of experience in it. But I do want to ask you this quickly. I mean, one of the things that you just talked about is more people because of things like the Epic Pass, which is Vail Resorts, and Icon, which is a consortium and whatnot, the mountain collective, these kind of there, it is big business, right? 00:14:20:03 - 00:14:56:27 Speaker 1 I mean, there are all sorts of ways that corporations are, which once were family run operations, are capitalizing on the trend. But you talk about people traveling and longer lift lines and things like this. What's interesting is it's a very, very expensive and inaccessible sport in a lot of ways. And yet, you know, how do we make and that's one of the things I know you're really interested in, is how do we make snow sports more and not just snowboarding and skiing, but all of them more inclusive, more equitable, more affordable, more practical, safer, all the things that matter to the future of the sport. 00:14:56:29 - 00:15:16:07 Speaker 2 Well, you know, there are I mean, there's a couple of things that I can address with that. You know, number one, the like, there's this whole trend with skiing and snowboarding. It's like street riding, which is basically, when I started snowboarding, I started on a golf course, like they didn't even allow you on ski hills. So we would like hike up a golf course and ride down, do it over and over again. 00:15:16:07 - 00:15:37:13 Speaker 2 And that would kind of be a Saturday afternoon. You know, today, kids like kind of jump on the handrails, like skateboarders would, stuff like that. So you don't have to buy a lift ticket or have a pass and maybe not drive as far if you have snow kind of in your area. So those are different ways that people are, you know, trying to make it more accessible. 00:15:37:13 - 00:15:51:02 Speaker 2 You know, these group season passes at least gives you the illusion that you're getting a great deal. However, you know, this year, for the first time, I think Arizona Ski Bowl had a lift ticket with surge pricing over the holidays. 00:15:51:03 - 00:15:51:26 Speaker 1 I saw that. 00:15:51:28 - 00:15:52:19 Speaker 2 For $300. 00:15:52:19 - 00:15:53:28 Speaker 1 $300. 00:15:54:00 - 00:16:10:10 Speaker 2 Right. Who can do that? It's like, now you're going to learn how to ski. Think about if you're like learning to ski. And that's the big challenge right now is like if you're already a dedicated skier, it makes sense to you to spend 800 bucks to get a season pass to 50 resorts. If you've never skied before 00:16:10:10 - 00:16:35:20 Speaker 2 and a lift ticket is $200 or $300, are you going to pay for the lift ticket, the lesson, the rental equipment, the travel to the mountains, the hamburger in the lodge? All of these things. And it's like, you're going to spend $1,000 for a weekend, decide whether you like it or not, you know. And so that to me is like kind of the one of the big threats is like just getting people involved, getting their foot in the door to see whether they even like that. 00:16:35:22 - 00:16:57:02 Speaker 2 Because certainly, you know, I would say that just like the speed, the risk, all of these things, they kind of come together with like gravity and everything and it gives you a sense of freedom. And so when when you get to that point where you feel that freedom and not the pain from all the crashes you took to get to that point, you know, you start to connect and become a skier or snowboarder. 00:16:57:04 - 00:17:21:07 Speaker 2 But it takes a few days in either case to get to that point where you really want to say go all in on a sport like that. So that's one thing. You know, another thing that I think is kind of a threat is just the expense of living in these places. It used to be that, like all of the Olympians were like kind of like the son of a maintenance worker on the ski lifts or something like that, a kid who had like the the chairlift as a babysitter growing up. 00:17:21:22 - 00:17:48:11 Speaker 2 And now with just like, the advancements, whatever. Now, a lot of these guys are coming from San Francisco or Orange County in California or, you know, greater New York City, because they're the people who can A, afford the sport, afford the training, afford to ride year round, etc.. And so you don't have kind of this like ecosystem of people who are growing up in the mountains to live in the mountains, it’s like they're kind of getting run out of the mountains by people who can afford to live there. 00:17:48:11 - 00:18:09:23 Speaker 2 And so, you know, it's like the guy who runs Big Bear and Snow Summit now, Clayton Shoemaker, he started out as a park ranger. Riding around in the park. right. And then he just took baby steps. And 15 years later, he's running the resort. And so you don't have this kind of feeder system of like snowmaker to CEO that that kind of was the trend for a long time. 00:18:09:23 - 00:18:20:17 Speaker 2 And so I think that is kind of a threat to the long term viability of ski areas, as well as just having people who have spent their lives and have a vested interest in its success. 00:18:20:20 - 00:18:42:09 Speaker 1 Well, I mean, my head's going in lots of directions. And as anyone watching this thing and I know you know this is it and that, you know, kind of how that conversation as it evolves. I mean, I want to get to the place where you've created something back in 2008 called a well, it's it's it's in Alaska, which I know you say it's like the deepest powder, the best mountains. 00:18:42:09 - 00:19:17:21 Speaker 1 I know you're like a huge fan but obviously Tailgate Alaska has been many times over named among the number one number two, biggest, best and most exciting sporting events in winter sports. You brought thousands of snowboarders and skiers from around the world, including Olympians and everything else. You do this for ten days every year, you know, talk to me a little bit about how that came to pass and really what the vision of it is as a as a way to mitigate, I think, some of or maybe not mitigate, but some of these kind of issues that you're talking about. 00:19:17:23 - 00:19:40:29 Speaker 2 Well, it wasn't started because of climate change, although now it's that climate change played right into my hands, Lisa. But anyhow, no, it started basically, I started Snowboard Magazine and built it and sold it. And I had you know, it wasn't kind of like this incredible payday where I would retire forever, but I was like, okay, I just work seven days a week for years. 00:19:41:01 - 00:20:03:24 Speaker 2 I'm going to go on the best vacation I could imagine. That was heli-skiing in Alaska. I already done that a couple of times before, and I went up there and when I got there I found that I was basically one of like 15 people. There was a group from Chamonix, a group of big wave surfers from Hawaii who were into it, and then a couple of film crews of skiers and snowboarders just filming video parts like movies. 00:20:03:26 - 00:20:21:19 Speaker 2 And I went up and then one of the riders, like, got slightly hurt, but not hurt enough to take him out of the, you know, off the mountain. And so we ended up like heli-skiing with one of the best riders in the world. And I'm driving back to the airport and I'm like, wow, I have to figure out a way to share the best experience of winter sports with more people. 00:20:21:19 - 00:20:44:15 Speaker 2 And that was kind of the seed that was planted to just start the event now. Took a while to figure out what that event was to share it with more people. But what I came up with essentially was a tailgate party in the backcountry of Alaska. And so I plow out a parking lot. It's about it's based on the first Bush plane airstrip in Alaska. 00:20:44:15 - 00:21:13:05 Speaker 2 So there's an airstrip there. We plow it out in the winter time and people camp out in RVs and they can camp in tents. Some people have camped out in snow caves and stay there for ten days. And so the idea there is that you have access to a stable snowpack, some of the best snow in the world, and also an area equivalent to significantly larger than every ski area in the world combined directly from this parking lot. 00:21:13:08 - 00:21:41:14 Speaker 2 And so literally, you know, just right in front of you, you have like Jackson Hole and Snowbird and Palisade just right there in front of you. And that's just one view. And you can ride, you know, we'll ride seven or eight glaciers in a day to traverse just back to different mountains. And so the adventure feeling small in nature and just that that experience of really self-reliance that you get in the backcountry is something that's kind of fundamentally different. 00:21:41:14 - 00:21:56:15 Speaker 2 And the idea was to share it, not make it into a contest where there's a winner and a loser. It's like, how do we create an event where everyone's the winner, you know? And so that was kind of the idea. And I would say that successfully, it has made everyone a winner who has attended. 00:21:56:17 - 00:22:24:11 Speaker 1 I've loved everything about what you just said. And I mean, what an amazing experience. I’ve seen some of the photos and people can follow on Instagram as well. I mean, it's a remarkable event because exactly what you said, it is kind of self-contained. I mean, in its own way it's you know, it's own little like pack in, pack out kind of ten day pop up without any of the major infrastructure that we're all in the modern world used to to get the best snow. 00:22:24:13 - 00:22:59:25 Speaker 1 I mean I think one of the things that you know, there's lots of aspects of the industry, you know, in terms of material innovations, in terms of just you know, sustainability and how like snowmaking, I mean, there are lots of things that we can imagine are changing and trending. But I think as we think about wrapping up, I'm curious what you think are kind of like the the top two or three things that you think are going to happen in the next 5 to 10 years as far as like the future of snow sports that are really going to drive change? 00:22:59:28 - 00:23:25:02 Speaker 2 Well, you know, with the changing environment of winter, let's say, I think that, you know, there will be technological innovations that have a large impact on the sport. Right now, there's a chemical additive. They put it in the water that they make snow out of called snomax. And snomax allows you to blow snow at 36 degrees. 00:23:25:05 - 00:24:03:00 Speaker 2 I have not seen an environmental study on snomax. I have no idea how we’re polluting the environment looked at. But the you know, the almighty profitable dollar is what matters here, Lisa. So snomax, allows people to make more snow, but certainly we're seeing trends in terms of snowmaking, in terms of trying to extend the season and then also develop things around winter sports that will keep that value there in those towns and the real estate, because certainly as resorts role in the environment changes, you know, or in terms of like real estate and everything else that, you know, that resort towns contribute to the world, they're going to have to come up with other 00:24:03:00 - 00:24:30:16 Speaker 2 ways to make themselves viable in the future. So you’re going to see more alpine slides and more stuff like that. You know, I'm hoping that we're going to see technology evolve for synthetic snow. Other things you can blow besides chemicals on to, you know, mixing with water and then having them go into your watershed, that kind of thing. But I would say that, you know, technology is going to have to work in terms of like keeping that viability of the sport as climate change happens. 00:24:30:16 - 00:24:51:15 Speaker 2 I think climate change think everyone agrees, at least participants of winter sports agree that climate change is real and that given that being a fact, you know, technology is maybe one of the things that we can utilize to keep these sports interesting and viable and a good outlet for people find presence in their lives. 00:24:51:28 - 00:25:10:25 Speaker 1 I'm going to wrap with that because I think it's kind of brilliant. And it certainly also the last question is going to be, what's your hope? And I and I see it, I mean, and I agree, we have to think about how technology can preserve. I mean, it's a great theocracy that we get out into the to the nature, to enjoy it, to be present. 00:25:10:25 - 00:25:18:02 Speaker 1 And yet we're polluting with the way that we have to maintain it in light of what we've already done. It's a vicious cycle. 00:25:18:04 - 00:25:47:03 Speaker 2 It's kind of crazy because it's like, you know, the people are like, I like winter sports. I'm really into it. Except that winter sports participants are some of the biggest polluters out there in terms of carbon emissions. We drive hours each way to go to the ski areas. We get on planes to fly around the world, you know, and it's like if you're living in New York City and taking the subway to work every day and home, you're not really creating nearly the carbon impact that other people are doing. 00:25:47:03 - 00:26:06:07 Speaker 2 And it's kind of, you know, ironic because there's a lot of virtue signaling in the sport, like Aspen is like, no, we have like a fully green, our town is fully green. And it's like, yeah, but you have 12 private jets idling on the runway and a thousand 30,000 square foot houses that are unoccupied 90% of the time. 00:26:06:09 - 00:26:39:11 Speaker 2 And so I think that to take a real look at the real impact and not just do what makes you feel good, but really kind of look at what it's going to take to make an impact, you know, and really, it is our opportunity to reduce our emissions. And, you know, that will have an impact on climate change, which if you want to be a skier on the East Coast or your grandkids to be skiers on the East Coast, you know, it serves you well to look at all of the things that you're doing to have an impact on the environment. 00:26:39:14 - 00:26:56:10 Speaker 1 Mark Sullivan, founder of Snowboard Magazine, a host and producer of the Snowboard Project podcast, founder of Tailgate Alaska, among many other things, thank you for joining us on Future of XYZ, talking about the future of Snow Sports. It's been enlightening. 00:26:56:12 - 00:26:58:08 Speaker 2 Thank you, Lisa. 00:26:58:10 - 00:27:19:08 Speaker 1 For everyone watching or listening, watch on YouTube, you can access that at ripbs.org/xyz. You can find the Future of XYZ wherever you get your favorite podcasts and be sure to leave us a five star review and follow us @futureofxyz on Instagram. We look forward to speaking again in two weeks. 00:27:19:10 - 00:27:27:24 Speaker 1 Episode five is coming right up. Mark, thank you again. We will speak soon. Enjoy your snow sports for the rest of this winter. 00:27:27:26 - 00:27:28:26 Speaker 2 Thank you.