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AI's House of Cards · Hardly Artifical Podcast

• Episode 6: So yeah. Or did we have the same idea or something? I don't know. Is it podcast day? I guess it's also Happy Halloween. true. That is the holiday. I'm just too ugly to be on camera, so that's why I wore this. we've kind of getting into the spirit here with Halloween coming up this week. So yeah, should we get going? Let's do it. Alright, listeners, welcome to episode number six of the Heartily Artificial Podcast where we discuss AI, technology, and the impacts on with real world life examples. I'm Derek Major. I'm Mike Bukowitz. And yeah, we're back for another week. I'm actually in New York this week for Monday dot com's Elevate Conference with Ligio. so I'm working out of my hotel room today here, Mikey. Yeah, I was I was hearing the A C pumping. Is it warm over there or is it just like the hotel room's too hot? Surprisingly, it's actually pretty warm outside. So I got on the plane yesterday and I was like, huh, this is actually pretty good. So yeah, I I was walking around with just like you know, short sleeves, just walk around town today and it's pretty good. So yeah, it's good weather. It's good weather. Yeah. So no, nice. It's cold over here. It's raining and it's cold and it's miserable. So I'm just I'm in the sweatshirt today. I had to be comfy, you know. I didn't w I don't want to go the professional route. No way. That's that's That's fair. Well, it's probably good to be comfy these days in the AI world. Man, since last week, we got like so much to cover. So main things, our stories today, listeners. We're going to be talking a little bit about Anthropic on their IPO. We'll talk about the hack last week as well. and Mike's going to talk a little bit about agents and banks and you know the whole world around that. And also, he's also gonna follow up another piece on anthropic as well with the public fund that they've committed to. Which is I've seen some surface headlines, so I can't wait to hear your share on that one, Mike. So yeah. Yeah. I mean, all I mean, honestly, the theme is a little scary. Maybe, maybe we're on theme this week with all the with all the holidays coming up. I don't know. But I think there's something under the surface we have to unpack. And I think it's gonna be important to tune in to really listen to the the real stories behind what's going on, especially getting that away from the hype, you know, because there's always that that layer of news these days. So Yeah, and it is interesting, like everyone's it's like Yeah it's like a big hype machine I think to get everyone really excited and a little nervous, frustrated, but it's it's it does feel like everything's kinda you know, just just These buzzwords, the doomsday, or that's the it's not the doomsday, or you know, it's just all these spins that we keep hearing, right? Yep, yep. And I I think the the market's telling right now, especially with the this isn't part of the news story, but just kind of a little tidbit that I've been following, the China bubble finally burst, right? The AI bubble finally popped. There's a lot of talk around that right now, especially with, you know, what we'll be talking about in the news story, but just overall market, I think there's definitely a tone down on the hype in terms of What people think AI can produce, and I think the numbers are really telling of the quarterly earnings that are coming out and being exposed specifically around those larger companies, too. Totally. Yeah, no, I agree. And yeah, but I mean it's all doom and gloom. We'll have a little bit of fun in our segment today when we do AI Courtroom. so we'll do we'll run through a little exercise there. we kinda c you know, Catherine kind of threw a little bit at us. We didn't really prep for this one, so we're gonna do like we have normally been doing, and I'm sure a lot of you would do too, is we're just gonna toss the description of the activity of AI Courtroom into Claude and we're gonna have Claude produce the courtroom and kinda guide us through basically we're gonna see what we kinda So this should be a fun exercise later on. So many themes from around here. What are we doing? What are we doing? I know, right? I know. But hey, do you want to kick us off there, Mike? Yeah, let's let's start there because I think that's an interesting one, especially with the fact that you know some of the biggest banks in America right now are finding AI agents inside their customer accounts. And At first glance, when I saw that, I was going, especially with all the the hacks, all the things that are going on in the moment. But I looked into the facts a little bit. So on October 22nd, Axios reported the un unvetted AI agents are accessing US bank accounts. Some log in with the customer's own credentials, and some reportedly take steps beyond what the customer asked for. So J JP Morgan said this on October 13th earnings call that it would not allow outside agents to do any kind of operations. Inside the bank. Other large banks are reportedly being to be blocking and restricting them. So, you know, bank executives use the words like horrifying and grave concerns. I get it. Like, you know, it's it's personal data and it's personal funds. I mean, that's insane to give access to in the first place. I can understand, like, you know, bill paying, things of that nature. Maybe that's where we're headed with this. I don't know. But just to kind of take the mask off a little bit and think about these these kind of points is. Reporting does not say these are what you did there. I saw what you did there. Yeah, see? You got it? Mask off, man. but like they said, that these they did not say these are hackers necessarily. That's the thing. Many of these agents appear to be tools people set up themselves, just like I said, like the billing payments, things of that nature using their own logins. The reporting also does not name the companies behind the agents. So it gives no number or affected accounts. So again, these are just you know observations. To say the least. But the biggest one that I thought was interesting was the bank's real problem is that they can't often tell if the agent is you authorizing it from the one that from the ones that you did not. So I think that's where this gap is. So I think the biggest question that I would love to hear back from you is what exactly do you think this is moving towards? Like, what do you think this is opening us up for? Because the hacking's already a big story. Having these agents basically, I mean, we're last Last week we talked about this with the credentials, giving agents something to go off of to be able to take action on behalf of you. I think that just goes right back to the architecture discussion, but I think there's more to this, especially with how sensitive this information is. Yeah. it sounds like well, we talked about a couple weeks ago about Facebook News, right? Like which people are like giving access to everything. So I mean on the surface, let's put security aside, I think it's pretty cool, right? Like imagine getting your AI agent to log into your bank account every night, take a look at all the transactions, and just, you know, go load them into Claude and then Claude runs an analysis and sends you a report in the morning. I that's pretty sweet. Like you know, stuff like that I can see that there's value. I realize you can get like accounting platforms, but I mean on the surface cool, but it's kinda like even did you ever use mint? I know of it. I never used it, but yeah, I know of it. Yeah. I I I never used it either, but I remember distinctly and quick Intuit ended up buy buying them a number of years ago, but it reminds me I was at this c tech conference twenty twelve, something like that, eleven maybe. it was right around the same this time Mint came out. I remember this guy, this is another tech guy, and this is when Elygia was doing like MSP work, like tech support and whatnot. So this guy's like a network admin. And He's telling me and all about mint. He's Yeah, I got my I just logged into my bank account through it, and I did this. And I looked at him, I said, Hold on. You gave it your password and your bank information to log into your bank account? He's Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can download everything. And I'm like, So what you're saying is you gave it access to even pay bills, move money. He's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, so it has access to everything that you have you you you your every every last penny you have. And as we were talking it through. You can see the look on his face start to go, what did I do? But at least in this case, I feel like there's it's a software versus an agent. An agent could take that and do you hear all these kind of crazy stories. Depending what goal you give the agent, if it has access to your bank account information and logs in and starts sending, you know, money transfers around, like I think that's Not at all. Yeah. I think you brought up a good point there though, because you know, the the thing that came to mind when you brought that up was the credit card monitoring. That's been a big deal, especially with, you know, false, you know, charges, things of that nature, that information gets out there and you go, man, I don't know what to do with that. I feel like that's a lot of reactive, of like as they notice. I'm wondering if that could be a benefit. I'm just kind of thinking about this in terms of you give access to review and you see something that happened that's still pending when you have a chance to actually say that's not me. Like maybe there's an opportunity here that more than a fear f fear factor, right? I don't know. Like that it just kinda came to mind when you were s saying something about giving access to the actual accounts. Yeah, well you know I I I think a number of companies, like Monday.com included have created the ability for agents to log into their platforms. Like that's one way. It's like if you instead of like trying to paywall it or not even necessarily paywall it but outlaw it I guess is probably better way. Like why don't we just go and And create like an MCP connector on the banking side. You know, and then that way you don't have to go through all these hoops and things and so that's interesting. That's yeah, I I saw the headline about that one, but I wasn't really too f familiar with I'm not shocked, that's that's how do they know it's an agent? Did they say? I think what they said was is they noticed that it was a third party external factor logging in on their behalf. It wasn't the actual, you know, like when you log in, you have some credentials that you put in and you and they were able to notify that, hey, these aren't real customers logging in. Which is interesting. So it must be something to do with how it's perceived with the profile. but I would say to go back to the basics of this one, I think one of the important pieces is you gotta understand that it's like handy The keys over to your car or handing the keys over to your house. It's the basic the same principle, right? You're you gotta know what you're doing or who whom you're giving access to to really be able to say, okay, I know what that I know what they're gonna do. Now, I to just give one piece of advice out to groups that are thinking about this, not necessarily on a personal level, but even on a business level, it's not about the aspect of giving the access, it's more what do you give it access to. That's really all it is. It's not it's not as complex. Complex as people make it out to be necessarily, but if you keep it simple and say, hey, I just want, I don't know, like you said, a report being generated out of the finances on a daily basis, just so I can understand what's going on. And you know what? I think that's a great move. But like actually giving it autonomous action on moving money, I mean that that right there is already a no-no, right? Because if you think about it, that architecture is basically going against what we practice, right? Which is anything that's going to be impactful or something that isn't going to be something that humans would necessarily want to even hand over to somebody else to make decisions on. Why in the world would you let an agent do that too? Right? Totally. I completely agree. Yeah. Well it's gonna be fascinating. Like it's it's it's hacking season really. And if you've seen the quote that the anthropic CTO, I think it was a CTO, I can't recall his name right now, but he posted on Twitter that basically buckle up for the next eighteen I I think he picked eighteen months because He figures that's how much time is gonna all these vulnerabilities will be uncovered. and it's just gonna, you know, ramp up and ramp up. So it's gonna be fascinating to see how peop how companies adapt like to create, you know, additional security layers, right? Like if I have to figure that out. So interesting. Yeah. Well tell me a little bit more about your next story, because I think this is a good segue into it, what you just said there. Cause this is big news. This is stuff that's impacting everybody at this point. Yeah, well y you know, so yeah, last week, the day after we recorded, you know, our last episode, The PHP Foundation announced that there was a patch coming out for PHP, which is a programming language. It's a like it was one of the first languages I learned in the late nineties. so it's been around forever. And listeners you might be like, Well, what's PHP? Who cares? Just a programming language. Well, seventy percent of the internet is powered by this by PHP, this programming language. And you're you probably heard if you're if you have a business, you've probably heard of WordPress, which is a content management system that you know, powers most of the internet. Like all Elygio's websites on WordPress. My personal sites are on WordPress. So it's like this this is a really significant thing. And the interesting part is they gave people like 12 hours notice, and they started noticing that there was an eck the exploit was being you know taken advantage of, and that what that means is hackers have learned about this risk and they started promptly going after it. So very interesting. I'll give a couple just little more details but you know what what they basically are are arguing with this this vulnerability is that hackers could potentially take control of a server without logging in. So it allows basically a remote code execution to occur. So attackers could f get through this vulnerability and actually penetrate the system. It got so bad that the US government, the FBI, they're all basically saying if you're not gonna patch it, shut off the computer, shut off the servers. So It was just like very fascinating and it can came a day after I I said just watch it's all coming. The hacking's coming so it's but yeah, PHP, it's incredible to me 'cause like it's I think I mentioned to you the other day too, what the concern I have about I I love open source. I've always been previous you know, pro open source, whether it was through Sugar C R in the early days for Ligio, even running other systems like V Tiger, whatnot. and even to this day, just being able to pop open code. But I think because of that, we're gonna be tested now because AI a has access to these code bases and some there might even be an argument to have closed code. again now, right? So it slows people that doesn't mean they're they're not gonna find vulnerabilities, but closed software it would just be take would just slow them down a bit, I guess is probably the best way of looking at it. But I I see so I see it to two c two things here. One, I think they did a good job of addressing it as best as they could. Right. but two, I do think open source needs to is gonna be ultimately hardened because of AI. So hopefully they're doing a lot more defense on there. And you know the story we talked about last week was the issue of, anthropic and open AI not allowing people to do research on their own right vulnerabilities. So, you know, it kind of fits back into the same theme as last week. So yeah, I I like from your perspective, I I know you're not a you know, software developer or anything like that, Mike, but like when you heard about this, were you like confused about you obviously I think you knew about PHP, but you probably didn't really understand, like many of our listeners, exactly what it is. Like it's what when you see headlines like that, do you get a little like, ooh, this is little nervous or like What do you think? I you know, yeah, and you're right. Like I I don't spend a lot of days inside the the world of actual coding, but I what I can tell you is when I see those kind of things, I am I am atypically going to go find out more. Right? Like, well wait a second, what is what kind of impact does this have on me? Now I know a lot of folks may not do that because they don't live in the world that I do necessarily, but what was interesting when I started researching it was the US were really slow to actually admit this was happening, which was really interesting. And I I think it had everything to do with trying not to create panic. But at the same time when they released it, it had already like been out there for quite a while. So that was just like, now all the major news outlets now are starting to actually say something. what what I think is interesting though is the The government definitely is more cautious than most, right? They like the the state government, the all the all the folks that are in municipalities, things of that nature, they were already shutting things down, trying to patch it, then re-release, right? Because they don't want to take that risk. But well the Canadian government shut down a lot of their government websites. Okay, because of that. So there you go. So it's it's following the same trend. But I think it you know, the first thing that came to mind was maybe this is an opportunity, just like everything else in the business world, to reimagine what this, you know, what how businesses host. Their information on online these days, right? maybe it's the time for a revamp there too, because I'm noticing there's some websites that are starting to protect their own IP where they say, hey, you know, AI is not able to access it remotely. They have to actually have like a login and a connection and things of that nature. I think that's relative, you know, and I think I think that's something that we'll have to, you know, follow up on in terms of how do you want internet to be or excuse me, your information to be accessed, right? Because I don't know. I don't I mean could it give it this be the next big shift from like I remember like in the nineties and dating myself here but in the nineties like you used to use like American online AOL CompuServe Prodigy all these these applications that gave you a window into the internet it wasn't until Mosaic came along the browser and then now we've been on web browsers since like the mid nineties till now like is this maybe a big shift where we start seeing that the web is not as relevant as Maybe an application, more closed applications, you know different than the apps you find on your phone. that's a great possibility. I think I think that's where we're the the amount of conversations that are happening around security alone, you know, i AI security is one thing, but AI can find the voids in security of other things, right? And that's been proven already with this PHP incident. So I think there is an opportunity here where we revit revisit the idea of how does AI play a role in our security? I mean, what does that look like? I know I know that you had mentioned Anthropic has already provided the you know, the variances as well as the you know, the the holes inside the coating. What more can it do for good rather than you know chasing down what's bad? Like what what else can we like you said, bulletproof. Like that's kind of where my head goes with it. Yeah. Well computer in your bunker. It no no no, you gotta have dial up. That's the only way to protect yourself. Go to dial up again. Yeah, we're just gonna go right back to the nineties and where where it took like a three hours to download an image. And my dad yelling at me because I'm tying up the phone line. Exactly. Yep. I remember those days. Yeah, yeah. That's man, that's good. But yeah. Cool, man. Yeah, I mean so that PHP two shell was the main thing. and it's just Yeah, it's and it's just the beginning, everybody. Like I'm telling ya, there's more coming. Even since then there's been a bunch of other hacks that have c that have that popped up too. You can just imagine that it's going so fast and it's gonna really put pressure on systems administrators out there. I know at Oligio like that day that was happening, it's like patch, patch, patch, reaching out to vendors, make sure they're patching everything. It's a lot of work and I'm sure a lot of these sysadmins are probably still, you know, not getting a lot of sleep right now. And I I imagine this is gonna you know to the point of the anthropic CTO it sounds like this is gonna carry on for a little ways. Yeah. Yeah, I hear ya. I hear ya. Well we'll keep an eye on the what yeah, exactly. So so yeah, I I'll talk a little bit about the IPO in a second, but you wanna maybe I don't know if it's a positive thing, you wanna talk about the public benefit first? we could do that, yeah. I I don't know what it is yet. Honestly, I'm pretty neutral about this, but the fact that the AI an AI company of that size is promising a forty eight billion dollar value of you know, to the people its own technology puts out of work. Now, this is on paper. It's it's that like that it's that play again. It's that it's that marketing play, that ploy of, hey, we're trying to be more about the people than we are our technology. What I think's interesting though is on October 18th, Anthropic said it was gonna be putting five percent, which is valuation, if in fact the IPO valuation is accurate, which we'll see, right? There's a lot there's a lot of unknowns there, but it it basically says, you know, it's probably around forty-eight, you forty-eight billion on. Paper, some investors are going more towards a lower valuation, so it might lower that a bit. But if we were to kind of think about it lit you know realistically, one thing is is for certain, it is a proposal. The short the state shareholders still have to approve it, right? So if they're going to be an IPO. So that is one thing to keep in mind. The other thing is an LLC runs this. So that might change the way it's perceived. They might be offering it as like a, you know, for those of that have been in there, a 501, you know, 501c3, or it could be something along. Those lines where they're not necessarily it's a donation, a charity of some degree. This is still a for-profit company, right? So that we don't know exactly what they're gonna be doing with it. And I think the biggest one is they might, and that's in quotes, might make the large donations to nonprofits. Like that's the thing, is we don't know how they're gonna do it. So in the coming months, we'll find out more, obviously. But I think the biggest thing that I'm I I think they're starting to realize is they're getting associated with all the negative news of hey the Microsoft news that just came out around the layoffs that are happening. they're trying to let people go, but it's more of like a proactive sense. I think they're trying to get ahead of that storyline. But I don't know, I mean the reactions are split. So on your perspective, from just looking ins you know, inside this n news story, I don't see a positive or negative yet 'cause I really don't know what this is gonna be an outcome of, but perspective wise, like what what do you think is the you know, the biggest story in your head on that one. Well, it keeps what comes to mind is like Elon talking Elon Musk talking about, you know, this world of abundance, right? It's which as we've talked about, you know, if we have all this abundance and then you and I are we're gonna go to a resort, like who gets the who gets the the presidential suite? You or me. Right? Like it's it's kind of a weird dilemma now it's like how do you actually exchange goods or anything like that. So I I I think what they're doing is along the same lines is like, okay, let's let's show the the the people that yeah the shareholders and society that we're not the boogeyman. Here's we're giving back, you know, we're gonna say we're gonna say from the top of the mountains how we're gonna take away jobs and you can do it quickly. But by the way, we're gonna put some money back in so not everyone's kinda left hanging is kinda the way I'm gathering it, but number one that's US only, right? Yeah. I assume I assume that's probably gonna go to a like I think it's a government fund, is that right? I there's not a whole lot about it yet. I thought I read something. I might have heard that too, but I think it was like some kind of government controlled fund. So obviously it would be for American citizens, right? So then it starts then you start asking like around the world, like other countries, like Canada has an AI company, Cohere. the in Europe I'm not I think Mr. Al's one of them, I think, up there, and a few others. So but none of them have the influence in the scale that open AI and Thropic have. I'm sure that'll matter. I really don't know if that'll matter, but I think I don't know, man. Like it's it's every time I hear headlines, I always wonder like, are they just trying to use this to pump the stock? And how are they trying to do it to pump the stock? Like what's the what's the secret, right? So well, I mean it's you you bring up a good point there. they're they're trying to address the elephant in the room, which is the disruption that it's causing, right? They're trying to reass reassure people that they're not here to take away jobs, they're here to get gain a new level of jobs that are supposed to come. come out necessarily. And I think the you know the one of the other things I've noticed is there's been a huge uptick in the forward deployment engineers that have been kind of going out recently. Job postings, people talking about it, you know, high paying jobs. I'm still on the fence about that whole situation. But what I would say to it is, you know, if you think about it, this is still a plan. This isn't something they're actually saying, here you go, here's the money, right? So it may not even come to fruition at that scale because what's about to happen happen next may change everything, right? And it may change the way people perceive. Just like, and I'm not saying that SpaceX IPO was a kind of a wash, but it definitely showed the I would say the roller coaster ride that is the market where everybody's hyping it and then it's like, well wait a second, what are we actually doing here? Like what is this? Right? So it's it'll be interesting to see how this all kind of goes about. Totally. And it's this is a great segue as you alluded to into the actual IPO thing that I'll talk about here in a second. 'cause really I've always looked at The money. Where's the money coming from? What's the money for? Yeah. And all that, right? And it's and man, like And the c I want you to think about this gonna ask you as soon as I go I'll I'll start going through the story now on the IPO, but it's like very fascinating to me. I wanna know at the end of this which if you had the opportunity to to hit the IPO if you would. So mm here it is. So on on the t yesterday, Anthropic officially filed their IPO. Yeah. So and like here's some of the the key things on here. The potential valuation is between one and a half and two trillion dollars. But a lot of investors have been lowering their expectations 'cause they're I think as the as more details are being uncovered, it's starting to bring an interesting picture, right? So revenue's growing quickly. so they did sixteen point three billion in revenue in the first six first half of the year for twenty twenty six. So that's and that's rem remember back in it was a February or March when they were they were battling with the the feds. And then all of a sudden people like subscriptions skyrocketed. Because there's that remember there's the Department of War, I think they were doing some kind of a deal with them and they said, you know, we're not gonna work with you, Claude. We're gonna sign we ended up signing open AI. which created all this bad this animosity, which I think people have kind of forgotten about now. so I think a lot of the revenue spike was that. but the other the killer thing, they reported an eighty point seven billion dollar net loss. Now, this is where And I'm not a CFO, I'm not a financial expert in all this, but this is like a bunch of financial adjustments they've been doing on their books. So it's not like it's not like they actually lost that cash. but but the ac like the actual operating loss was six hundred and ninety-three million. But there's this thing on the books as far as this you know, this eighty point seven billion dollar loss, which you don't it's it it's something that I think related to some of the commitments they've made with different companies like Amazon and all that's kind of the rumor I think to do with that. anyways, as a person that's not as familiar with this stuff in the financial side, probably like you, my head starts spinning, it's like, okay, is this what a house of cards starts looking like? Right, so mm but now with that said, you know, as as my notes just taking a look at my notes here, they have they they're generating a lot of revenue. Like it's growing. Right. Right. I just don't know if they can grow to the point where j it justifies that size of valuation. The The other thing is the founders will retain retain significant control after the IPO. So which is very similar to another social media guy, Mark Zuckerberg. I think that this one's a little more not as generous to Zuckerberg that is he pulled up with Facebook, but they still will retain control. but then man, like how many Anthropic openly warns investors about catastrophic AI risk? So if you read through the the filing, like they actually say this. could risk he the humanity. It's like and people still want to buy this. so the plan is that trading could begin in November sometime. they've not announced the actual date, the the price or the number of shares they're gonna be issuing yet. But it's gonna be big, it's gonna be massive, it's gonna value the company significantly. but man like I don't know, it makes it s it seems like a lot of funny stuff and it reminds me of and I was, you know, just just graduated high school at this point, but the whole Enron thing and all that, right? World was it WorldCom as well? Like that was just a whole gong show, right? So and a lot of that was like all this papering of things and all that too. But you hear about Google loaning money to to Anthropic, I think to Anthropic or I I've lost track of all of it. But then they're also renting, you know, GPUs from SpaceX. So SpaceX is leveraged over here and they're leveraged over here. It's just very fascinating how much it's being leveraged across the board. So so that'll yeah, that's kind of the the big thing I've I've been kinda reading up on in the last couple of days here. obviously we've been hearing about it for a while. Open AI's delayed theirs. I'm surprised Anthropic hasn't either. But I think that I think I heard a rumor that someone said that if they don't actually do this IPO, they won't be able to pay off their the debts that are coming due. So the money might even be already spent that they're about to raise too. So so with all that said, would if you had the opportunity to get in on that IPO, would you? I am not a risk taker by tr by nature. I don't know enough, like you said, about the financial ups and downs to be you know to be I would say seasoned in trying to navigate the market anyway. I did talk to my f father-in-law about it a little bit the other day, about like what he thought, because he plays in the spot stock market quite a bit. And even he even said he was like, I'm just not into it because it's just a lot of hype and no real information. But I think there's something interesting that I I ran across randomly just the other day that it was a i I don't know how valid this data point is, but I do know it's sourced from a valid source, so I'm gonna just state it. Somewhere between five And 7% of Anthropics revenue in the first nine months of 2026 came from customers who were breaking its rules. And I thought that was an interesting stat. And it's not that, you know, it's not a bad stat. It's more that I think it's the unknown of what AI actually can do and what customers are capable of in terms of how they structured their revenue. So the duplication of what was used versus what was actually paid for is still up in the air, too. So that just just knowing that specific. fact and knowing that every AI tool that we use, there's always rules behind it, but someone's not necessarily enforcing them. That makes me a little leery of trying to do that as well, I would say. Yeah. Yeah, I I I mean This is a thing like Th I think they're two different technologies of course, but Bitcoin. I remember in like twenty thirteen how I knew a lot of people buying Bitcoin for like two hundred, three hundred, six hundred bucks. Right, right. Then they and then all of a sudden the thing's worth like what's it like a hundred grand, eighty grand or something something crazy. Yes. It's just right. Yeah. And if you had a few if you had just had three or four t bitcoins, you're la laughing all the way to the bank. I knew one guy I met at this conference, and he had like I don't know, hundreds and hundreds of Bitcoin. And he got it when it was cheap. And he was like all in on it. And next thing you know he's building a whole business around it. So I feel like I feel like I look at the lens of AI and some of the the the stock out there like I there's a bubble coming. I just don't know. There's so much valuable IP in these companies that I can't imagine they just ever disappear. So it'll be interesting. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, that I mean that's that's a pretty good scale on like what we're doing. I mean I'd be interested to see like what what comes out of this filing if they actually go through with it, honestly. Yeah, well, it sounds like it's gonna happen. It's just man, like I if I've ever heard of risk, that's risk, so. But speaking of risk, when we get into courtroom. Let's do it. Let's and fire it up. So what I'm gonna do for listeners, I'm gonna share my screen, but I I'm gonna talk through a little bit of what's going on. so let me come back here and I'm just gonna share my screen. And we're gonna go hang out with Claude today. So today we're doing AI Corp. And the way it works is one host prevents presents a controversial statement such as AI will make traditional websites obsolete. and by the way, I just copied and pasted this from from my assistant who we just threw it in here. so we're gonna get we're gonna add a little more description to this, to this prompt. We're gonna say we would like to set up a game between two people. My s me, Derek, and Mike. Can you guide us through this? So I think it about covers it, doesn't it? Yeah, I think so. One host, they flip a coin. Alright. Well let's see what it comes up with. I have no idea what to expect. You think Opus is good? Or should we do fable? that's right. I changed my plan. We're just gonna use Opus. I'm not on the max plan. So I'm playing with open AI right now. So all right, so let's see here. Planning a quick game setup. So let's see what this comes up with. so here's how we're gonna run it. I'll handle the topic options, the coin flip, and the judging it says. So format, about 12 minutes total. Opening statements, two minutes each, four goes, rebuttals 90 seconds. Yeah. Anyways it's given instructions that cause we're already recording. It's already seen that we're doing this, so there you go. How I'll judge, I'll score each side in ten categories. so Mike, I might need you to I might need you to post into I don't even know if we have a chat on here, but you probably just have to maybe just post it on Slack and then I'll copy and paste your answer here. So three statements to choose from. Ain't it your Okay, my founder led businesses. There we go. All right. AI will make traditional websites obsolete within five years. Within three years, AI agents will replace the CRM as the system businesses they run on. and a ten million dollar business should stop hiring junior staff and let AI do that work instead. So once you pick one, it says, they'll flip the coin. What should which show which topic should we debate? Ooh, that's a good one. Maybe we should do start with the easier one. What do you think the easier one is? Okay. websites are obsolete. We're just talking about a little bit. Yeah, let's do it. Alright, we're gonna pick that one. All right. Let's see what it says now. So right now, Claude's thinking. It's just running some commands that says it's contemplating. and basically we've picked websites are obsolete. So it's flipped the coin. The coin landed on heads. I've set it up so heads puts Derek on the four sides. So I'm for claiming websites are on their way out. And Mike, we're gonna argue and defend websites. All right. Okay. So this is take five minutes. We're not gonna take five minutes, we're just gonna give her. Why not? I think we can pull it off. sure. So but here the best arguments on either side will be specific ones like real traffic numbers. We're gonna make up stuff as much as possible. Okay. How buyers are actually behaving and what happens to the business depending on depends on Google or its own site, AAS changing everything. Okay. Watch the definition. Mike's easiest win is to argue that websites will still exist in five years, which nobody disputes. I need to say up front what obsolete means. Okay, I can probably do that. But here we go. So we got a couple minutes. let's I'm gonna open. Ym4 websites are on the way out. Are ready for this? Okay, I'm ready. Okay. All right. It says I don't know how we're gonna pull this one off on this buddy. So Do we do we just do it ourselves right now and then we'll we'll just come up with little tidbits that you can type in? I think we're gonna just argue it. Yeah, we'll just we'll just argue it out. so listeners, what we're talking about here is it's asking us to record it and put the conversation into into the system here. But of course we're recording this live, so it makes it a little more complicated. So we're just gonna we're just gonna have a banter back and forth and we're gonna go for right through that the run order here and we'll just see what our arguments think. And maybe no white listeners In the comments, why don't you go ahead and post in there who you thought won the argument and why you thought the argument was the best? We'll stick with that. Okay. That works. Alright, my opening statement. So I'm gonna claim that websites are on their way out. They're gonna be obsolete in five years. So what I'm gonna say about obsolete and what my definition obsolete means. I think of the of definition of obsolete as though that how would we say People just don't buy they just they don't build websites. I think I think obsolete means it's almost like if I have a laptop that becomes obsolete, I can still use the laptop, right? It still functions, still works. But what I'm arguing is that in five years from now, nobody's gonna be building a website. They're gonna be building a hardened app that you install on your phone, on your computer, whatever else, and that's the way it accesses you know, still network protocols and internet like APIs and all that. But I believe that in five years From now that we're we're no longer gonna have people wanting to have websites. In fact, websites and the internet becomes behind the scenes, and we just stop using the internet because it's so flooded with AIs. And AI, I can talk to Siri, I can do this, I can talk to Gemini, whatever other AI tool. I don't need to go on the internet anymore because I'm learning everything from an AI. So I think so, obsolete. I can go back and look at the website, I can take a look at it whenever I want, but as far as new stuff like business. businesses you just you wouldn't you'll never look for their website anymore. You're gonna be looking for what they're gonna be doing because AI is already there. AI is giving you the answers. You have an app on your phone related to it. Everything has to do with apps and again it comes back from the security component. So that's my my opening. Okay. So I'm supposed to be four, so I'm gonna I'm gonna speak on behalf of for the internet and I would say the biggest thing that you brought up was the connections of the data, which I think is important to realize that it has to come from somewhere, right? And I I always come back to the e commerce world, right, where we are all window shoppers in some regard, if you think about it on the internet, where you gotta have some visual of some degree to be able to base your decision off of yes, I will I will admit AI does it enable you to see pictures of like what you're actually talking About sometimes depending on the model you're using. However, sometimes those pictures are out of date because the model the information they're pulling from is dated to begin with from those public models that you're utilizing. So if you think about it, and I I only bring up e-commerce because everybody can relate to it, right? We all shop on some some kind of online store, and to be able to see the most up-to-date products, I don't know if AI will ever catch up with that. Maybe it will, and I'm and I'm not sure about it, but I will say having the source of truth and I would always Always check the source of truth on, hey, is this really real? Does this sale actually exist? Is this price actually real? Is it converted the right way? Are taxes taken into consideration? Always go back to the source. So I think the websites are gonna have a hard time going away necessarily, because the source of truth is still going to be the e-commerce and where it gets sourced from. Good open. Great. I'm impressed. okay, how about your rebuttal? What's your rebuttal to my opener then? I would say my rebuttal would be Not it the you the definition of not obsolete. So the things that we are going to be reliant on is the fact that no matter what, we need a web address to be able to associate with the business. There isn't going to be a day where there's not going to be some kind of coding of some degree to the unique identifier of what these businesses are. We're gonna have to have some kind of identifier and some kind of home page, let's call it. I'm just gonna common terminology for the businesses to actually live off of. Cool. Well, my my rebuttal to you on really the freshness of information, I feel like Again, websites will be obsolete because we're gonna find a way for AIs to be up to date on a regular basis. So imagine my AI every morning reads the news, you know, or man I always think about how Google has all access to all these crawlers already gathering information off the internet. So I feel like if they're continually adding to their model or like an index of the latest information while things are being outdated, I think it that I think Gemini and these different models will still have access to real time information. information. So I feel like in five years given how fast things are going that at some point it's actually gonna catch up that we just don't need websites anymore and you can just talk to the AI to find what you need. Alright, what's your you got a one minute close. One minute close. what I would say to all of that is I think the because the data is moving so fast and because businesses are evolving so fast and honestly, because there's always the human element of being able to make those decisions on how the design looks and where things are gonna be placed, I don't believe that we're ever gonna lose the concept of the online stores, the online business representation, the why we exist. I'm just gonna be honest with you, that's gonna always need some kind representation because that can be skewed very easily with a consolidation, a synthesis, a coordinator saying, you know, passing it to another agent. We're gonna have the risk of a company's image be at you know be something that is misconstrued to the public because it's interpreting it from many different sources rather than the source of truth. So I think the internet's gonna be important for the identity of businesses moving forward, just like I said, and the unique identifier is going to be that critical piece. And yeah, my my closing is that honestly I think AI is gonna get smarter and smarter and have access to instant information that we're gonna find our personal assistance, whether it's like Muse or whether it's you know Siri on your iPhone or whatever it might be, I feel like these tools are gonna have access to instant information and know so much about us that we won't even bother going after it and we're just gonna play Angry Birds all day. Good one. right. So I just thought about this too, so what we'll probably do is get Katherine to take the transcript of our courtroom and we'll get her to throw it in there and then she can attach that at the end of the podcast. and maybe we can touch on it next next next week as well. So Yeah, yeah. Well so thank you for playing court courtroom. That was fun. That was in better. Yeah, I I my honest opinion, I'm not really sure w what el happened on websites, but I do notice I use I use apps more to find stuff, that's for sure. So there's definitely that that it was hard to find that differentiator with keeping keeping the websites. I I still think it's possible, but i again there's so much that has to go into that. it's kind of funny that was brought up with the topic we just said, right? I mean it's kinda like, well, maybe we don't need I don't know. Well maybe you don't. And you start thinking about security and the and I go back to one of th that last story, that evolution from AOL to where we are today, like w the web has really lasted a long time and I think the bones behind it. Right. Like we're I remember seeing the other day how they they figure like like agent traffic is gonna be ten times what web traffic is today. And how do you build infrastructure to handle all that, right? So Yep. And one way is like MCPs through APIs and all that. And if it has access to all these things, does it really do you really need to go to a website anymore? So it's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Well, that's good sir. Well I think that probably brings us the time here. Until until next time. we'll we'll we'll dig into more AI topics. Hopefully we don't have any more hacking stuff coming up. I gotta get a little I gotta get less scary. I gotta get less scary, you know. Let's let's let's not be as scary. Yeah. And speaking of scary, happy Halloween to everybody. we hope you have a good time. Trick-or-treating this weekend with kids if you have them and without kids if you don't. I mean maybe go to a good Halloween party and have a good time. Just just stay safe out there. That's all we ask. Stay safe out there. Exactly. Alright, well Mike, good chatting, and thanks listeners, and we'll see you next time. Sounds good.