Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1125 - Social Kung Fu With Matt Purcell

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#1125 - Social Kung Fu With Matt Purcell · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:04
Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.
0:07
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
0:10
Speaker 2: wants answers.
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Speaker 1: Now, Hello and welcome to a Happy Family's podcast. My
0:16
Speaker 1: name's doctor Justin Colson. So good of you to join
0:18
Speaker 1: us today. As discussions intensify around implementing age restrictions for
0:22
Speaker 1: social media use, particularly the idea of raising the limits
0:25
Speaker 1: to sixteen years of age, experts continually warn that these
0:29
Speaker 1: measures are going to inadvertently, as much as we would
0:31
Speaker 1: like it to not be the case, shift the burden
0:33
Speaker 1: of responsibility on the parents, rather than providing a comprehensive
0:37
Speaker 1: solution that will keep our kids safe, keep them offline
0:39
Speaker 1: until that well, I mean, even sixteen's arguably not old enough,
0:42
Speaker 1: but let's just keep it there for now. Research shows
0:45
Speaker 1: that social media is having an impact on youth mental
0:48
Speaker 1: health in all the weird nations of the world. Weird
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Speaker 1: meaning Western educated, industrialized, rich, and democratics. So we're talking
0:54
Speaker 1: about Astralia and New Zealand, the US, the UK, Canada,
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Speaker 1: North and West Europe, and a whole lot of other
0:58
Speaker 1: similar nations. We're seeing data that highlights that increasingly young
1:03
Speaker 1: people are experiencing challenges with mental health and A key
1:06
Speaker 1: predictor of those challenges appears to be their time on
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Speaker 1: social media. There was a Headspace report that found that
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Speaker 1: forty two percent of young Australians cite social media as
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Speaker 1: a key factor in their cognitive and psychological, and social
1:21
Speaker 1: and emotional and even their physiological challenges. Matt Purcell is
1:25
Speaker 1: the founder of Social kung Fu. Social Kung Fu is
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Speaker 1: a world first training program that's designed to empower youth
1:30
Speaker 1: with the communication skills and resilience they need to defend
1:33
Speaker 1: themselves against verbal abuse and a whole lot of other
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Speaker 1: challenges that come with being online. And it joins me
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Speaker 1: on the podcast today. Matt, great to be with you,
1:39
Speaker 1: Thanks for having a chat.
1:41
Speaker 2: That's great being here. Thanks doctor Justin.
1:43
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you shortly about Social kung
1:44
Speaker 1: film what you do there. I just love the name.
1:46
Speaker 1: I'm not a great great name for a company, but
1:49
Speaker 1: let me ask you this. You've spoken fairly consistently in
1:53
Speaker 1: what you do in this social media space about the
1:56
Speaker 1: challenges of enforcing age restrictions on social media platforms. This
1:59
Speaker 1: is a question that I from parents endlessly, never endingly.
2:02
Speaker 1: How do I keep the kids off, especially when all
2:04
Speaker 1: their friends are on there, and even if I have
2:06
Speaker 1: some sort of bands in my home, they just borrow
2:09
Speaker 1: their friends devices and they use social media there. My
2:13
Speaker 1: question for you is how can parents not just monitor
2:17
Speaker 1: but being involved in the management of their children's social
2:20
Speaker 1: media use when there are so many obstacles to being
2:22
Speaker 1: able to do that effectively and the online digital space
2:25
Speaker 1: keeps changing as well.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we've really failed our kids in this area,
2:31
Speaker 2: just in the sense of the government is pretty much
2:34
Speaker 2: and social media platforms have given kids car keys to
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Speaker 2: essentially drive social media at age thirteen without well, I
2:42
Speaker 2: mean you think of the drivers learner's tests. At least
2:45
Speaker 2: you're meant to pass some type of law, I mean
2:47
Speaker 2: some type of tests to know what difference between safe
2:50
Speaker 2: driving and dangerous driving is. And then once you pass
2:54
Speaker 2: that with knowledge and you've got to be viewed. The
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Speaker 2: parents has to be ahead of the kid. So if
3:00
Speaker 2: we learned that's the good parallel I've found here is
3:03
Speaker 2: where parents are a lot behind the eight ball because
3:07
Speaker 2: the kids are running rings around them. Because we have
3:09
Speaker 2: it really as a nation or West or being, literacy
3:14
Speaker 2: is not the same with things, so we don't know
3:17
Speaker 2: what's right or wrong. So I do think the right
3:19
Speaker 2: step in the right direction is for restrictions to be
3:23
Speaker 2: placed into hopefully into Australia at sixteen minimally, and it
3:29
Speaker 2: will just give it parents a good reset, a chance
3:31
Speaker 2: to reset their values, re express that you know what
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Speaker 2: the governments and forces now we have to relook at
3:38
Speaker 2: a few of the devices and things like that. I
3:40
Speaker 2: think parents would love a chance to go back in
3:43
Speaker 2: time and push reset on what they could do. But
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Speaker 2: one of the things I've been really encouraging parents to
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Speaker 2: do is to form alliances with other families that have
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Speaker 2: a similar value in their household of maybe no social
3:58
Speaker 2: media zone or limited screen time in their families. I
4:02
Speaker 2: do that with my family. I have a Facebook group
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Speaker 2: of people who actually say, yeah, we're families that don't
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Speaker 2: have social media up to this certain age, so that
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Speaker 2: it doesn't create this fear of missing out, a fear
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Speaker 2: of being left out in the kids. They've got friends
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Speaker 2: and families have friends that also to create this type
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Speaker 2: of relationship there, so there's no bullying happening because you're
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Speaker 2: not on it.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a couple of things that strike me
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Speaker 1: as you speak there, Matt. First of all, that idea
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Speaker 1: of the keys. I typically extend that metaphor a little
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Speaker 1: further and just say, I don't know if every state
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Speaker 1: has this for cars, but I'm pretty sure it is
4:38
Speaker 1: the case with motorcycles. You get a motorcycle license at
4:40
Speaker 1: whatever age, and you're on your l's or your p's, whatever,
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Speaker 1: and there are very clear restrictions. Just because you're pass
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Speaker 1: the test. Just because you've got the license doesn't mean
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Speaker 1: it's open slather. It's carte blanche and you can jump
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Speaker 1: on the bigg eleven hundred cced to caddy and go
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Speaker 1: wherever you want and do whatever you want. They usually
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Speaker 1: restrict young riders to it two hundred and fifty cc
5:01
Speaker 1: motorcycle for the first year of their riding so that
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Speaker 1: they can get their experience and learn how to do
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Speaker 1: it safely. And this idea that you're just well, you're thirteen,
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Speaker 1: now here's the keys, jump on the computer, social medias
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Speaker 1: or yours, it's I think it's it's just well.
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Speaker 2: What kind of results justin were we ever expecting other
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Speaker 2: than car crashes? Online cyberbullying, you got fishing, you got
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Speaker 2: like posters, you've got people imposing as other people group chats,
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Speaker 2: there is it is completely like giving a twelve year
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Speaker 2: old keysh to I think you're right, like restrictions are
5:37
Speaker 2: really important. It's a really important thing to place on
5:42
Speaker 2: new people with any like dangerous potentially harmful thing, because
5:47
Speaker 2: restrictions look at doing two things. One is balancing the
5:50
Speaker 2: balancing giving youth independence but also keeping others safe. And
5:55
Speaker 2: that's the two things we have to balance. You what
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Speaker 2: age is appropriate to be able to give them independence,
6:00
Speaker 2: but also not to protect others from harming them harming others.
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Speaker 2: So I do think it's been debated amongst I think
6:09
Speaker 2: it's been pretty much agreed upon most countries. Actually just
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Speaker 2: sixteen seventeen eighteen. There's a couple of years difference across
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Speaker 2: the West in the Greens on when a kid can
6:19
Speaker 2: drive in their age. Differ for drinking is different. So
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Speaker 2: I think there's one thing that would help move the
6:27
Speaker 2: need a little bit forward.
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Speaker 1: There are platforms that are beginning to take some steps
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Speaker 1: to create safer environments for younger years, as usually because
6:34
Speaker 1: of pressure from grassroots activism, from parents who are, as
6:39
Speaker 1: you said, getting together and forming alliances. I love the
6:41
Speaker 1: Heads Up Alliance that just does great work and says
6:44
Speaker 1: exactly what you're saying, right, let's band together as parents
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Speaker 1: and work on this. I have a website called Unplugged
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Speaker 1: Childhood dot org that says exactly the same thing. Delay
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Speaker 1: giving the kid's devices form these alliances so the kids
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Speaker 1: have got families that you can trust, that they can
6:59
Speaker 1: spend time with, and then when the time comes, move slowly.
7:04
Speaker 1: But what I want to know from you is, without
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Speaker 1: any governmental or bottom up pressure, a social media company's
7:11
Speaker 1: going to change Part one and then part two? What
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Speaker 1: changes could they make from your perspective to create healthy engagement,
7:19
Speaker 1: healthy use of their platforms.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I got a lot to say about this. Actually,
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Speaker 2: I don't think social media is do a partner freendshit
7:28
Speaker 2: or really to be able to make their platform safe,
7:33
Speaker 2: a safe place for particularly young people. An example of
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Speaker 2: that is you've got to look at intent based marketing
7:39
Speaker 2: and non intent bested marketing. The difference is simply this,
7:43
Speaker 2: when I search for something on the Internet that's intent
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Speaker 2: based marketing, I'm looking for it. So that's on the user.
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Speaker 2: So if we use the analogy you're driving a car,
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Speaker 2: there's rather user issues and there's manufacturing issues on the
7:55
Speaker 2: car to make it safe. So that's on me. And
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Speaker 2: how I use this device, we choose to log in
8:00
Speaker 2: and stuff, But at the same time there's non intent
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Speaker 2: based marketing, which is I'm not looking for this type
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Speaker 2: of thing at all, it's popping up in my feed.
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Speaker 2: That's definitely on the social media platforms. Why are extremist
8:13
Speaker 2: types of content being shown to young people is beyond me,
8:16
Speaker 2: like there is So the algorithm is within the platform's
8:22
Speaker 2: ability and that needs to be questioned, maybe by third
8:25
Speaker 2: party platform on how that is done. Usually how social
8:29
Speaker 2: media like to operate is based on engagement. So if
8:32
Speaker 2: this is what creates this issue of eco chambers where
8:35
Speaker 2: if you engage us in in say a topic, say
8:39
Speaker 2: you like sport as harmless as sport, the agreth is
8:42
Speaker 2: set up to say, okay, we'll feed us in more sport.
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Speaker 2: That's great. But then algorithm fees is something you haven't
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Speaker 2: searched for, but you might spend some time on it.
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Speaker 2: It might be some political thing, or extremist thing, or
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Speaker 2: sexual thing even like it might be non age appropriate
8:57
Speaker 2: for kids. If they spend you know, three to four
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Speaker 2: to five seconds that longer than unusual posts, they'll just
9:02
Speaker 2: keep feeding that. So that's where I really want social
9:06
Speaker 2: media to be held accountable for is are they as
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Speaker 2: a manufacturer, say, as a car, creating the best safety features?
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Speaker 2: And if bullying was happening on my platforms, I'd be
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Speaker 2: doing everything in my power to educate, to be able
9:19
Speaker 2: to use AI or whatever I can and monitor what's happening,
9:23
Speaker 2: to be able to flag better I think, or use
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Speaker 2: the curation even the algorithm to force feed educational anti
9:30
Speaker 2: bullying tactics or self well being science back to proven
9:34
Speaker 2: can't see young people on there. That's what the power
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Speaker 2: social media could be. These platforms could be educating the
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Speaker 2: people at more than just feeding you know, people who
9:42
Speaker 2: are paying them the.
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Speaker 1: Most right and alarm and outrage create the engagement. So
9:47
Speaker 1: we've got kids who are filming fights in the school yard,
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Speaker 1: provoking other people so that they can get the reactions,
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Speaker 1: so they can post it online, so they can get
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Speaker 1: the popularity, they can get the likes, they can get
9:56
Speaker 1: the status. We've got kids who are feeling awful about
9:59
Speaker 1: themselves and they're being fed pro anorexia content they're being
10:05
Speaker 1: I mean, we've got whistleblower content. We've actually got data here,
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Speaker 1: whistleblower evidence that shows that they're being fared a diet
10:12
Speaker 1: of I'm not only going to say it on the podcast,
10:14
Speaker 1: just stuff that will only exacerbate metal world challenges. Yeah,
10:24
Speaker 1: Matt Purcell from Social kung Fu, you have a social
10:27
Speaker 1: kung Fu program. I'm curious to hear about it. This
10:30
Speaker 1: conversation is pretty much the first time I've heard of
10:33
Speaker 1: you and what you do. My understanding of Social kung
10:36
Speaker 1: Fu is that you try to help young people with
10:39
Speaker 1: communication skills and resilience. Tell me a bit a bit
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Speaker 1: more about what you're doing as an organization to make
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Speaker 1: a difference in what is a very very challenging environment.
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Speaker 2: Well, those who are just listening to the podcast, if
10:53
Speaker 2: this is audio podcast, they won't see that I'm actually Asian,
10:56
Speaker 2: So I'm Korean hardware, Korean hardware and Aussie Soft Where gotcha?
11:01
Speaker 2: And I was adopted as a kid and everything was
11:04
Speaker 2: cool until my parents split when I was six, and
11:08
Speaker 2: that same year I went on to a new school
11:10
Speaker 2: bus and to a new school and was picked on
11:13
Speaker 2: by several years seven students verbally abused are physically abused
11:18
Speaker 2: for months.
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Speaker 1: So then they're twelve thirteen and you're six, and they're
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Speaker 1: giving it to you because you were Asian.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, because I'm Asian. I was an early Asian kid
11:26
Speaker 2: in my school and on that school bus. Wow, and
11:29
Speaker 2: I was defenseless. And I held that secret until my
11:32
Speaker 2: mom found out. And when they found out, the school
11:36
Speaker 2: did their thing, which didn't really deal with I've very
11:39
Speaker 2: much discovered very early early on in my life that
11:41
Speaker 2: I was on my own the school. My mom can't
11:44
Speaker 2: come on the bus, my dad can't come, The teachers
11:46
Speaker 2: aren't going to do it. There needs to be evidence,
11:48
Speaker 2: and there needs to be some type of skill that
11:51
Speaker 2: there was a skill in me that wasn't there just
11:54
Speaker 2: by hoping that someone would help me. I needed to
11:56
Speaker 2: figure it out. So my dad put me martial arts
11:58
Speaker 2: lessons come through lessons, caarate lessons, and it resulted in
12:03
Speaker 2: me turning violent and defending myself against bullying. First of all,
12:08
Speaker 2: was started self defense, and then I turned into a
12:10
Speaker 2: bully because of so hurt and I went through a
12:12
Speaker 2: lot of therapy and a lot of counseling as a
12:15
Speaker 2: kid and came out the other side very very very well.
12:19
Speaker 2: And now I help students deal with the same issue
12:22
Speaker 2: because if you look at the research, the most common
12:26
Speaker 2: formal abuse in the West isn't kicks or punches, it's
12:29
Speaker 2: actually verbal abuse and verbal abuse. There's no we've got crabacgard,
12:34
Speaker 2: we've got boxing or UFC with all these forms of
12:36
Speaker 2: physical self defense codes, but it comes with words, texting,
12:41
Speaker 2: and talking, which is majority of what gets us in trouble.
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Speaker 2: Words get you hired, they get you fired, they get
12:46
Speaker 2: your divorce, they gets your dates. They can create war,
12:48
Speaker 2: they can create peace. There's lots of forms of communications
12:51
Speaker 2: because but there's no uniforms, curated, evidence based program that
12:56
Speaker 2: I could find that help young people deal with the
12:59
Speaker 2: cyber attacks on verbal attacks in person and online. And
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Speaker 2: that's why I created Social Kung Fu. I have ten
13:06
Speaker 2: years over ten years of experience with as an NDIS
13:08
Speaker 2: provider back in the day, helped six hundred families a
13:11
Speaker 2: week through youth camps, music lessons, shootoring, and had a
13:15
Speaker 2: youth center with fifty plus staff. And I saw firsthand
13:20
Speaker 2: the damage of cyber bullying when it was arising in
13:22
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen plus, and that's why I created Social Kungfu,
13:26
Speaker 2: so verbal self defense black belt for young kids to
13:30
Speaker 2: be able to defend themselves and their worth with their
13:32
Speaker 2: thumbs and their.
13:33
Speaker 1: Tongues without having to get violent without.
13:35
Speaker 2: Having to get to that point. If you have to,
13:37
Speaker 2: you have to. But we can de escalate things, we
13:40
Speaker 2: can deflect. We can do so much with our words.
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Speaker 2: I say in Social kung Fu, words create worlds.
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Speaker 1: Matt really appreciate you sharing that. Thank you. Social kung
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Speaker 1: Fu is the name of the organization. I have two
13:50
Speaker 1: more questions that I'd like to run by you, just
13:53
Speaker 1: as we move things to a conclusion. We talked fair
13:56
Speaker 1: a bit about how the social media companies it's not
13:58
Speaker 1: in their interest to make any change that are going
14:00
Speaker 1: to reduce engagement. The algorithm being inflammatory and andcendury is
14:04
Speaker 1: in their interest. And attention is the currency of the domain.
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Speaker 1: The more attention they've got, the more engagement there is.
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Speaker 1: The more engagement there is, the more advertising there is,
14:12
Speaker 1: the more revenue there is, the more shareholder value increases,
14:14
Speaker 1: the more the market capitalization goes up. The owners really
14:18
Speaker 1: is on parents, and too many parents are just struggling
14:20
Speaker 1: and throwing up their arms and saying, I just don't
14:22
Speaker 1: know what to do here. If we were to extend
14:24
Speaker 1: this conversation into sort of a nice neat bundle and
14:28
Speaker 1: look for like a thirty or forty second wrap up,
14:31
Speaker 1: what would you say is the ideal role of an
14:34
Speaker 1: Australian government who is almost powerless relative to the US,
14:39
Speaker 1: basically because that's where the companies are. What's the ideal
14:42
Speaker 1: role of the Istraian government and social media companies when
14:45
Speaker 1: it comes to making online safer for our kids?
14:50
Speaker 2: I think if the government and the social media platforms
14:55
Speaker 2: can work together to create a literacy, which will help
15:03
Speaker 2: because I know a lot of parents that just are
15:06
Speaker 2: so far behind the kids run rings around them, they
15:09
Speaker 2: wouldn't even know where to start. Parents need equipping, they
15:13
Speaker 2: need education, they need to be a user of these platforms,
15:16
Speaker 2: and I think that could be a really good start,
15:19
Speaker 2: is to it. Like to back to the driver's knowledge
15:21
Speaker 2: test situation. The reason why there's a parent in the
15:25
Speaker 2: car next to the kid as they're driving, it's because
15:28
Speaker 2: that parent knows more than that kid and the skill
15:31
Speaker 2: level is at not near levels they know. So I
15:35
Speaker 2: think there needs to be something there. But I do
15:37
Speaker 2: think that the owners just needs to be on listen.
15:40
Speaker 2: We're the ones who give devices. Parents, the responsibility is
15:44
Speaker 2: on you to be able to say okay, you provide
15:47
Speaker 2: the opportunity to be able to be on it. So
15:49
Speaker 2: you're going to manage in your house to treat every
15:51
Speaker 2: single device that has access to the Internet as if
15:54
Speaker 2: it's a family device, not just a child's device. I
15:57
Speaker 2: can't tell you justin how many parents phone for Christmas
16:00
Speaker 2: and I've had the crisis to their children and the
16:03
Speaker 2: children says it's mine. Well, I think you should rein
16:07
Speaker 2: it in and treat it as if it was a
16:08
Speaker 2: work device. So we've got company devices that gifted to
16:11
Speaker 2: you to be not to abuse it or you'll lose it.
16:16
Speaker 2: But you've got a use.
16:17
Speaker 1: And every company has a very clear policy around what
16:19
Speaker 1: can be done and what can't be done on that device.
16:21
Speaker 1: If you do the wrong thing on that device and
16:22
Speaker 1: the company finds out, you will not just lose the device,
16:24
Speaker 1: you'll lose your job, right, I mean, there are very
16:26
Speaker 1: clear guidelines around how these devices could be used and
16:29
Speaker 1: what for.
16:30
Speaker 2: There needs to be a less formal version of this,
16:32
Speaker 2: like a code of contact in the house, I mean,
16:35
Speaker 2: and put it on a bloody fridge, talk about it
16:38
Speaker 2: at dinner and lunch until and breakfast until it actually
16:41
Speaker 2: seeps in that like based on social media reports, based
16:45
Speaker 2: on I think it was one of the UK University
16:49
Speaker 2: reports from twenty twenty three it was three hours a day.
16:54
Speaker 2: Has coalationship with increased the anxiety and depression. So we
16:57
Speaker 2: can use some true data suggest if you're on your
17:01
Speaker 2: social media devices more than x amount of hours, say
17:04
Speaker 2: an hour a day, then that's gonna equal you're gonna
17:07
Speaker 2: most likely feel down. You're going to feel now energized,
17:09
Speaker 2: and we're not going to have life together as a family.
17:12
Speaker 2: As a mom and dad, I want us to be
17:14
Speaker 2: able to be together rather than be on our screens.
17:16
Speaker 2: So you're gonna hate me till you're old enough to
17:19
Speaker 2: make your own choices. But this is what's going to happen.
17:22
Speaker 2: And I think parents, I know this. I can speak
17:24
Speaker 2: from experience adjusted having having helped six hundred families a
17:27
Speaker 2: week with my old my Youth Center. Parents need to
17:33
Speaker 2: step up again and risk being hated for a period
17:36
Speaker 2: of time. There might be property damage. I've seen kids
17:40
Speaker 2: go I hate this change. You know, they've like rebelled
17:44
Speaker 2: and it's acted out and you need to hold strong.
17:48
Speaker 2: It's like in other areas of your life, you want
17:50
Speaker 2: to let your daughter or your son just go and
17:52
Speaker 2: hang out someone's house that you wouldn't know. It's strangers
17:55
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. You've got to hold yourself to
17:56
Speaker 2: the same stand as you would for other values you have.
18:00
Speaker 2: This phone, unmanned is going to kill your kids.
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Speaker 1: So the advice that I picked up as we've gone
18:05
Speaker 1: through this conversation is fairly consistent with the things that
18:08
Speaker 1: I share with families. That is that the devices, even
18:12
Speaker 1: if you give them to the kids, still remain family property.
18:16
Speaker 1: You've also hid a lot of the importance having a
18:18
Speaker 1: parental alliance within the community. And the other thing that
18:21
Speaker 1: has come through many, many, many times is just the
18:24
Speaker 1: importance of having appropriate limits for your kids. Matt really
18:27
Speaker 1: appreciate you sharing what you have on the Happy Families podcast.
18:30
Speaker 1: If people want to find out more about social kung Fu,
18:33
Speaker 1: where can they go?
18:35
Speaker 2: Head to Social kung Fu dot com dot AU. There's
18:38
Speaker 2: a book that I'm writing right now with a lawyer,
18:45
Speaker 2: some clinical psychologists, and special needs specialists, and it's going
18:51
Speaker 2: to be the most conclusive free book. We're going to
18:54
Speaker 2: release this for free. But any parent that's got their
18:57
Speaker 2: kids being bullied in school right now actually knowing your rights,
19:02
Speaker 2: or if your parents your kid is being bullied so
19:04
Speaker 2: that your school doesn't ignore you. We've had so many
19:07
Speaker 2: unfortunately at list two or three media known suicides this year.
19:12
Speaker 2: Semi Ters who was ten. He took his own life
19:15
Speaker 2: because he was picked on boy's teeth and through his
19:17
Speaker 2: glasses and school buses for years and his parents rang
19:20
Speaker 2: the school up thirty times and the school didn't count
19:22
Speaker 2: that as any report. We've got others and it's awful
19:26
Speaker 2: what's happening. So we need to help give parents power
19:29
Speaker 2: back as much as we can. So keep an eye out.
19:31
Speaker 2: That's going to come out early twenty twenty five for free.
19:34
Speaker 1: All right, beautiful stuff, love the generosity. Matt Purcell from
19:37
Speaker 1: Social kung Fu. We will link to Social kung Fu
19:39
Speaker 1: in the show notes. Thanks for the chat, Thanks Justin.
19:43
Speaker 1: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rwan from
19:45
Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Check out the show notes and have a
19:48
Speaker 1: look at what Social kung Fu offers. These conversations matter
19:51
Speaker 1: so very much. If you'd like more information about making
19:53
Speaker 1: your family happier, we'd lovely visit our social media platforms,
19:57
Speaker 1: ironically on Facebook and Instagram. You can find a whole
20:01
Speaker 1: lot more at Happy families dot com dot a um
20:11
Speaker 2: HM