Latest / INSPIRE STORY / #0264_The Mathematical Case for Jesus — The Evidence That Could Change Everything You Believe

Transcript

#0264_The Mathematical Case for Jesus — The Evidence That Could Change Everything You Believe · INSPIRE STORY

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Lee Strobel, welcome back.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: And Merry Christmas. You too.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Thanks for... I'm more red.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: I should have thought about this a little bit more.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: That's all right.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: It's not actually Christmas yet.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, well.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Well, Lee, we had you last year for Christmas.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: And that was the first time we met.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: It was, yeah.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: And then we had you on for Easter with our
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: mutual friend, John. And so you got the new book
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: coming out. Yeah, the case for Christmas. So I thought.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: We got to do this again. Plus, I just love
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: being around you and hanging out.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: I love hanging out.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: So this one will be all about Christmas and Jesus's
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: birth and all that good stuff.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: But I want to start off with an introduction, just
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: like always. So Lee Strobel, a Christian author, speaker, and
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: former investigative journalist. You went from an atheist investigative journalist
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: into leading Christian apologist, and author, blending rigorous investigative methods
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: with your faith journey to influence millions worldwide. New York
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Times bestselling offer of over 40 books and curricula with
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: sales exceeding 18 million copies translated into 40 different languages.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Recently updated your book, The Case for Christmas, and Hobby
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Lobby has purchased 1 million copies and is giving them
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: away for free.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: Only half a million.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, only half a million. Only half a million. So
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: if you're at Hobby Lobby, you can pick one up
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: for free. Married to Leslie since 1972, and you have
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: two adult children and four grandkids. That's me. That's you.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Can we go home now?
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But, you know, I just... Like I said, I'm
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: just happy to have you here again. And we were
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: kind of talking at breakfast about the revival of Christianity.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: And I think we actually started talking about this a
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: year ago, almost to the date, exactly. And how far
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: it has come just in the past year. And you
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: had some pretty interesting statistics.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: There's actually a new survey done by the Barna organization
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: that show that among, especially young people who have taken
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: some sort of step as a result of the Charlie
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Kirk assassination, far more of them, like three times as many,
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: have taken a spiritual step versus a political step. So
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: I think it's something like 38% who took a step
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: took a spiritual step, and like 11% took a political step,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: which to me is a fascinating phenomenon. When you look
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: at also Bible sales continue to be extremely high. When
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: you look at how many young guys are going back
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: to church, young women are kind of leaving the church
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: a bit right now. but it's young guys who are
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: going to church.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: This is very new.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: Very new, very exciting, I think. It's like God is
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: kind of stirring the spiritual pot. You know, something's going
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: on in the culture.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Definitely.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: And I think it's a positive thing. I think, especially
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: Generation X and alphas, young, young people, they've been lied
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: to so much. You know, AI, who knows what's true
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: and what's not. You go on Twitter at X, you know,
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: and You see this funny video and then you realize, oh,
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: it was artificial intelligence. And, you know, television commercials just
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: lie to you about things or mislead you. Radio commercials
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: and politics has told you one thing when you know
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: that ain't true. And I think a lot of young
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: people get to the point where I'd like to base
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: my life on something solid. I'd like to anchor it
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: on something that's true. And that's a good thing because
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: I think personally my experience has been That's who Jesus is.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: And that's who we celebrate at Christmas.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: I think that's, I mean, I think you're right on
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: the money there with why this is all happening. And yeah,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: the younger generations are all coming back, but I see
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: it in all the generations. I mean, I see it
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: in the older folks and the folks my age and
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: the younger generation. Everybody, at least everybody around me is
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: talking about this and they're going back. or they're going,
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: or they're just initially- Right, first time, going to church.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: And it's really, it's just really cool to see. And
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: so once again, I mean, that's, I just, I learned
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: so much from you guys. And I mean, this journey
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: started for me, what, about two, maybe three years ago-ish.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: I think it was about two years ago. But- You know,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: and even in this, it's hard to find. There's so
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: many different opinions and different contexts on how you can
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: take scripture. And I've just learned so much from you
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: and from John and my buddy Todd that I'm going
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: to bring up again today. He's probably like, oh, shit,
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: what am I going to say now? And so I
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: think it's just important. And so all these people are
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: coming back to Christ or coming to Christ. And there's
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: a lot of questions. And so I just, I think
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: we don't all know where to look, but you're a
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: great resource.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: You know, yes, there are a lot of questions and
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: that's a good thing. You know, I think a lot
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: of people, especially people who are Christians, who are going
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: to a church and they've got a question, they've got
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: a doubt. They don't want to say anything because they're afraid, oh,
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: you're going to think I don't have a faith or
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: you're going to look down your nose at me. And
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: And unfortunately, they hold it in. And it's like a
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: little kid. You know, when a little kid has a nightmare,
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: he jumps out of bed and he runs into his
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: parents' room and he jumps into bed and he's sweating
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: and his heart's pounding and they say, what's wrong, what's wrong? Oh,
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: I had this dream, this horrible dream. He said, well,
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: tell us about the dream. Oh, well, there was this
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: monster under my bed and he had three eyes and
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: he was, and then he started to laugh. You know
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: what I'm saying? And because you let it out, you
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: talk about it. And if you hold it in, it's
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: going to erode your soul, questions and doubts. So I say,
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: let it out. Talk about it. Investigate it. Do what
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: I did as an atheist and check out these things.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: You'll come to a better resolution of it that'll give
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: you a solid faith. So I hope people don't shrink
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: back when they have doubts or questions. You know, it
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: doesn't surprise God. God's not going, what? What do you
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: mean you don't think such and such? He's, you know,
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: When John the Baptist, who, if anybody should have known
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: the identity of Jesus was John the Baptist, he's the
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: one that pointed to Jesus and said, behold, the Lamb
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: of God who takes away the sin of the world.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: But then he gets arrested. He gets thrown in prison.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: Now he's got doubts. Now he's got questions. But what
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: does he do? Does he allow that to just erode
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: his soul? No. He gets some friends together and said, look,
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: go track down Jesus and ask him point blank, are
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: you the one we've been waiting for? We need to
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: wait for somebody else. So they track down Jesus and
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: they say, hey, Jesus, John's He got busted and now
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: he's freaking out. So would you just tell us once
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: and for all, are you the one we've been waiting for?
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: And how does Jesus react? Does he get mad? How
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: dare John of all people have the temerity to express
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: a hesitation?
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: No.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: He said, look, go back to John. Tell him what
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: you have seen and heard. The blind receive sight, the
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear,
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: the dead are raised, and the good news is preached
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: to the poor. Go back, tell them the evidence that
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: you've seen with your own eyes that convinces you that
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: I am the one I claim to be. So they
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: go back and they tell John. But this doesn't destroy
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: John as having any role in the kingdom of God
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: because he dared to ask a question or express a doubt.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: It's after this that Jesus gets up before a group
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: and he says, among those born of women, there's no
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: one greater than John. John, the guy who dared to
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: ask a question. So we should feel liberated as Christians
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: or as spiritual seekers. Say, it's okay to have questions.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: It's natural. It's expected. Just kind of do the due diligence,
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: go to good sources and check it out from reputable
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: people who've got a track record of accessing scripture in
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: a way that makes sense and is consistent with the
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: intent of the writers.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you. Thank you.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: So last year we did all about the life of
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Jesus Christ. And this year I want to talk all
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: about Christmas.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: You know, the Virgin Mary.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: Bethlehem.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: The journey. why she had to be a virgin. Yeah.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: And a lot of Jesus stuff, too.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, awesome. I love that.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: I thought that would be a really good for our
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: next Christmas interview.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, excellent.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: So, couple things to knock out here real quick. Lee,
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: you know, you always get a gift when you come on.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Nothing's changed.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: Come on. Thank you.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: Vigilant, sleek, gummy bears. Thank you, man. I appreciate it.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: You're welcome. You're welcome. That's great. We got a Patreon account.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: And you know that, it's quite the community.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: And they're the reason that we get to sit here
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: with each other today. We had a lot of good questions,
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: but I'm gonna hijack the question today.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: And so I'm always picking your brain and John's brain
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: and Todd's brain and Ruslan's brain or whoever I bring
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: in to chat about the good word, right? But I'm curious,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: what have you learned this year? What did you learn?
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: I'm always learning from you guys.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: That's a great question.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: I'm curious what you've learned this year.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: I learned a lot this year. And I say that
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: because about 20 years ago, I did a book called
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: The Case for Christmas. And it came out, I don't know,
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: back in 2002, something like that. And now the new
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: book is a complete rewrite and complete revision and updating
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: of that book. So I had to update it. I
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: had to do the research. And I learned so much
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: in the research of that book that changed my perspective
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: on Christmas, changed my perspective on the Gospels, changed my
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: perspective on Jesus. Just a lot of things about some
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: of the translations that may not be giving us the
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: best picture of what really took place. There's one Greek word.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: If you get that Greek word wrong, it kind of
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: changes everything. And I think a lot of people have
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: gotten it wrong. So, and then the questions, things like,
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: things that everybody wonders about, like, why do we celebrate
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: it on December the 25th? I had my theories about that,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: but now there's been some more recent scholarly research done
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: into that. So now we got good evidence why we
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: do celebrate on December 25th. So I just kind of
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: by updating the book, I kind of updated my own
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: knowledge about Christmas. And it just made this Christmas so
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: much more fun because I get to tell, hey, you
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: know what? And I get to tell people all this
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: fascinating stuff. Good.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Well, I can't wait to hear everything you've learned. So
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: last thing I'd like to just, you know, we always
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: kick it off with a prayer.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: So if you don't mind, I'd love for you to
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: lead us.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'd love to.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: And then I may insert a couple of things here
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: at the end.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Lord, thanks for this opportunity to talk to Sean,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: see him again, and hang out with his folks, his
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: people here at his place. It's just such an encouragement
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: to me and such a joy to do. And we
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: pray that as we talk about Christmas, this incarnation of
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: the Son of God, this monumental miracle that took place 2,000
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: years ago, that it would, first of all, encourage people
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: who are your followers and embolden them and give them
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: confidence in what we believe. But I pray for those
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: that are kind of spiritually curious. They're not sure what
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: they believe. They're on a journey. They're questioning things or
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: doubting things. Lord, I pray you use our conversation to
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: point them toward you in Jesus' name.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: In Jesus' name. And I would just like to add,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: you know, that there are a lot of folks out
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: there looking for answers, as Lee kind of just mentioned,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: but there's also a lot of people out there that
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: are lonely on Christmas and other holidays. And we just
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: ask that you be with them and we hope that
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: we can bring them at least a little bit of
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: joy through our interview today, which we'll be releasing on Christmas.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: In Jesus' name, amen. Amen.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: That's great. All right, Lee. Thank you.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: All right. So, man, with all this stuff that you've learned,
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: I don't need... You just rewrote my whole outline. So,
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: we're going to... Go down a lot of rabbit holes.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: So I have an outline, and I would just, anything
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: that you've learned, if you think it's appropriate to share
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: in that portion of the interview, please do, because I
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: am fascinated to hear with what you've learned. But I'd
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: like to start off with the Virgin Mary.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: So when did we know that Jesus was going to
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: come from the Virgin Mary?
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: We knew it 700 years before it happened. the prophet
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Isaiah in Isaiah 7 verse 14 foretold that the Messiah
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: would be born of a virgin. Now that gets a
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: little controversial because skeptics will say sometimes, well, wait a minute,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: the word Alma in the Greek that's used there doesn't
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: always necessarily mean virgin. If they meant to use virgin,
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: they would use the word batula, which is another Hebrew word.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: And so was he really talking about a virgin birth
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: of the Messiah? Well, the answer is there was no
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: single word in ancient Hebrew that always meant virgin. They
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: didn't have a word in their vocabulary. The word that's used, alma,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: means young maiden. And a young maiden was presumed to
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: be a virgin in those days. The other word that
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: people want them to use, betula, actually is used sometimes
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: of widows who were not virgins. So they did use
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: the correct word, A young maiden, a virgin, is to
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: give birth. In fact, before Jesus was even born, when
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: the scholars translated the Hebrew scriptures into the Greek, the
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: word that they chose for that translation, this is before
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Jesus was born, was virgin. So they got it. So
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: this prediction 700 years in advance was that the Messiah
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: would be born of a virgin. Other people say, no, no, no,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: that actual passage, that was a prophecy for King Ahaz
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: who lived back in those days. And yes, there is
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: stuff in there about King Ahaz. It's a double fulfillment
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: of that passage, but it's in a nest of messianic prophecies.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: Isaiah chapter seven, the Messiah is going to be born
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: of a virgin. In Isaiah chapter nine, he is already
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: born and he is declared mighty God. In Isaiah chapter 11,
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: he is reigning, with the power of the spirit. So
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: this is in a cluster of messianic prophecies. Besides which,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: this King Ahaz, he was in trouble back then. There
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: were a couple armies that were trying to kill King Ahaz.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: And so God was trying to reassure him, hey, look,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna take care of you, don't worry about it,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: you're gonna come out fine. But King Ahaz was of
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: the house of David. If he had been killed as
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: these enemies were trying to kill him back then, that
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: would have ended the line of David. The Messiah was
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: to come through the line of David. So the fact
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: that Ahaz needed to survive this challenge to his life
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: was very relevant to the birth ultimately of the Messiah.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: So we knew 700 years before Jesus was born that
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: the Messiah would be born of a virgin.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: I've spent years on this show pulling back the curtain
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: and trying to reveal what's really happening in this country.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: And the truth is, there's a double standard here in America.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: You see time and time again, people defending themselves, defending
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: their family, and then the judicial system goes after them.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: It's a double standard. And if you don't believe me,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: check out episode number three with Don Bradley. That is
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Because it's
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: not just about what you did, believe it or not.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: It's how the legal system interprets it. And that's why
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: I'm a USCCA member. The USCCA has over 860,000 members
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: because they know the reality is after you stop the threat,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: the real fight begins. Your membership gives you the education,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: elite training, and self-defense liability insurance you need for the
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: second fight, the legal one. Plus, every member also gets
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: access to a 24-7 critical response team and attorney network
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: in the event of a self-defense incident. Violent crime happens
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: too often in America. This isn't about living in fear.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: This is about being prepared when things go sideways. You
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: don't get to schedule danger, and with the world changing
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: so fast, you have to do what you can to
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: protect your family. Check out the USCCA's risk-free membership at uscca.com.srs.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: That's uscca.com slash SRS. Protect more than just your life.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Protect your future. Go right now to uscca.com slash SRS.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Want more from The Sean Ryan Show? Join our Patreon
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: today for more clips and exclusive content. You'll get an
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: exclusive look behind the scenes where you can watch the
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: guests interact with the team and explore the studio before
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: every episode. Plus, unlock bonus content like our extra intel
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: segments where we ask our guests additional questions. Our new
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: SRS on-site specials and access to an entire tactical training
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: library you will not find anywhere else. And the best part?
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: Patreon members can ask our guests questions directly. Your insights
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: can help shape the show. Join us on Patreon now,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: support the mission, and become part of the Sean Ryan
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Show's story. I want to ask you, this is the
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: phone call that I took when you were.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So....
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: I bring up Todd a lot. Todd is who I
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: do my Bible study with.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: I know every time I mention his name, he's like,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: oh boy, where are we going? But I remember the
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: very first Bible study I ever did, yeah, ever did
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: with Todd.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: And just ever. And we were talking about Genesis. Yeah.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: And it was Genesis 3.15. And he says... And I
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: have this recording. Maybe I'll play it for you if
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: I don't describe it right. He says that God is
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: basically telling Satan that his nemesis that's going to crush
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: him is going to be from the seed of a woman.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: That's right. But Todd then also says the woman does
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: not have a seed. That's right. The man is the
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: one that has a seed. And so we knew all
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: the way back in Genesis when God told Eve that
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: the Messiah is going to come from a virgin. So
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: through this kind of cryptic type way, right? Is that
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: a prophecy right there?
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: It is a prophecy. You're exactly right. A female child
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: has two X chromosomes. A male child has an X
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: and a Y chromosome. The Y comes from the male.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: And so in order for Mary to give birth to
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: a male child, she would have to have a Y
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: chromosome in her ovum. How did that happen? She wouldn't have,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: she just have two Xs. She would not have the male,
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: the Y chromosome. So how can it come from the
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: seed of a woman? How does she get a Y chromosome? Well,
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: this was a big problem for one of the main,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: biggest defenders of Christianity in the world to earn PhDs.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: His name is Dr. William Lane Craig. Dr. Craig doubted
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: the virgin birth because he said, Mary can't give birth
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: to a male child without a literal husband having sex
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: with her because she doesn't have the Y chromosome. So
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: it bothered him. And then he said, oh, wait a minute.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: Wait a minute. Scientists all around the world now agree
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: the universe began to exist at some point in the past. Therefore,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: whatever begins to exist has a cause behind it. We
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: now know the universe began to exist, so there must
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: be a cause behind the universe. What kind of a
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: cause can bring a universe into existence? It must be
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: transcendent or separate from creation. It must be immaterial or
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: spirit because it existed before the physical world. It must
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: be eternal or timeless because it existed before time came
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: into being, physical time at the creation. Must be powerful
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: given the immensity of the creation event. Must be smart
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: given the precision of the creation event. Must be personal
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: because they had to make the decision to create. Must
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: be creative because look at the beauty of the cosmos.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: Must be loving because he crafted such a perfect habitat
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: for us to flourish in. And The Occam's Razor, which
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: is a scientific principle, tells us it would be just
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: one creator. That is a description, transcendent, immaterial, powerful. That
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: is a description of the God of the Bible. And
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: so he said, wait a minute. If God created all
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: that there is for him to create a Y chromosome
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: in Mary, supernaturally, would be child's play. And he overcame
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: that objection he had to the, how could Mary have
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: given birth to a male child without the Y chromosome?
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: So it was from the seed of Mary, as opposed
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: from a male contribution to the genetics of the child.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: So God could create a genetic code. He can create
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: the Y chromosome. That's nothing compared to the creation of
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: the cosmos, which is unbelievable. So that kind of satisfied
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: for him the sort of the possibility that God could
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: have pulled this off.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Why was it so important that Jesus was born of
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: a virgin?
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very important because.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: That's a miracle in itself, so I do understand the symbolism.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, it was a miracle in itself, but also it
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: meant that he would not be tainted by original sin
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: or a corrupt moral nature that has come down ever
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: since Adam messed up and has kind of corrupted the
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: line of human beings. It had to be an interruption
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: in that somehow. Otherwise, she would have inherited this corrupt
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: moral nature that we all inherit.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Are you saying that because she wasn't married?
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: No, I'm saying that because all humankind has got this
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: corrupt moral nature. But here's what happened. In Luke 1,
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: verse 35, as he describes the virgin birth, Luke says,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: through an angel, Mary is told, the Holy Spirit will
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: come upon you and overshadow you. So that, in other words,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: as a consequence of that, the child will be born
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: holy and will be declared the son of God. He
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: will become holy means sinless. He will be sinless. So
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: in other words, there is something about the conception of
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: the child through the Holy Spirit that has created sinlessness
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: in the baby who is born. Because he uses that word,
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: so that.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: So that.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: The Holy Spirit is going to conceive the child so
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: that he will be holy. He will be without sin.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: We don't understand that process necessarily, but it is the
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: intervention of the Holy Spirit that interrupts that lineage of
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: corrupt moral nature and stops it so that this child
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: is born without original sin, without corrupt.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: So it's not that there was no sex There was
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: no sex to conceive. That's not it. It is wiping
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: out a lineage that would have had sin.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there was no intercourse that they had before
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: for Jesus to be born. So there was no male
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: contribution of a Y chromosome through normal sexual intercourse. And
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: so that, but that isn't what eliminates sin from Jesus
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: because Mary was a sinner. The Bible says- She was
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: a sinner. She was a sinner. Now, Catholics would disagree
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: with that. But I look at the Bible and it
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: of God. It doesn't say except for Mary. So, yes,
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: I believe Mary was a sinner. I believe we're all sinners.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Mary needed forgiveness just as we all need forgiveness. So
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: what the conception by the Holy Spirit did is it
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: interrupted that process and allowed the baby to be born
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: without sin. So, you know, Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: That doesn't refer to the virgin birth of Jesus. That
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: refers to the conception of Mary. They believe that Mary's
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: mother was sinless and gave birth to Mary who was sinless.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: I just don't see that evidence in Scripture, personally. I
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: just don't see it. I don't see the evidence of that.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Well, if Mary was a sinner, then why was she
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: the one that was chosen to give birth to Jesus?
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: Because even as a sinner, she was apparently a woman.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: I love Mary. I mean, she must have been a
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: remarkable young woman and young woman, teenager. She must have
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: been a remarkable woman because the angel says that God
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: has found favor in you. She must have been a
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: woman of great devotion, great faith, great love for God
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: and for people of all human kind. Why did he
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: choose this teenager to be the vessel through whom the
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: God of the universe, Jesus, would be incarnated into our world?
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: What was it about her? And that's what I love
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: about her, that she was, must have been, in fact,
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: you talk about, who would you like to hang out
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: with in heaven? I want to meet Mary. Yeah, I
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: want to meet Paul. I want to meet Luke. I
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: want to meet all these people. I want to hang
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: out with Mary and say, you got to tell me
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: what it was like. to be the mother of Jesus.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: And I want to hear the stories. And I just
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: admire her so. But was she a sinner? Yeah. The
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Bible says all have sinned and fall short of the
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: glory of God. But the Holy Spirit is what interrupted
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: the transmission of that sin to Jesus. And he always existed.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: He is now incarnated into this world as a sinless,
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: fully God and fully man at the same time.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Now, when did Mary find out that she was going
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: to carry the Son of God.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Shortly before she was born, I mean, this angel appears
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: to her and begins to tell her that she's most
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: favored of God and that she's going to give birth
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: to the one who will ultimately rule the entire cosmos.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: And she said, how's that possible? I'm a virgin? And
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: he says, basically, don't worry about it. The Holy Spirit
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: will overshadow you. The Holy Spirit will come upon you.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: And the one you give birth to will be holy.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: He will be the Son of God.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: And how did that angel appear?
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Well, we don't have a lot of detail. We just
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: know that he appeared to her. There are a lot
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: of angelic encounters in the pages of Scripture, about 200
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: of them. And they tend to differ about how the
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: angel can manifest himself in different ways. And it's always
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: as a male in the Bible, when an angel manifests himself,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: it's always as a male. But in ancient, I found
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: cases in ancient Jewish literature that where angels manifested themselves
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: as females. There's no reason he couldn't. It just happens
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: to be, I think, that in the cases in the Bible,
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: they're manifested as a male. And so it doesn't describe him.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: It doesn't give us a description of what he looked like,
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: but she knew he was an angel. I mean, I
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: don't know if I told you about this last time,
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: but I had an angelic encounter myself when I was
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: 12 years old. And I knew intuitively this was an angel, intuitively.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: And he was talking about heaven at the time. It
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: all kind of fit together. But he didn't have big wings.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: He didn't have a halo. He didn't have feathers or
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: anything like that. But I knew intuitively that this was
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: a messenger of God. So we don't have Mary describing it.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: Did it scare you?
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: It startled me. It's the only vision or dream I
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: remember from my childhood. I was 12 years old. I'm
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: making a sandwich in my kitchen. And this angel appears.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: He kind of descends. And I knew intuitively, but I
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: wasn't scared because he was talking about heaven. He was
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: extolling heaven, how wonderful heaven is. And I listened for
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: a minute and I'm making my sandwich. And I said, well,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go there someday. So I thought everybody
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: goes to heaven, right? I said, I'm going to go
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: there someday. And he looked at me and said, how
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: do you know? What do you mean, how do I know?
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I'm a good kid. I get good grades in school.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: I pretty much obey my parents. I'm trying to justify
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: my goodness to enter into heaven. And he looked at
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: me and he said, that doesn't matter. And a chill
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: went down. How can that not matter? All my efforts
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: to be dutiful and compliant as a kid, you say
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: it doesn't matter? And then he said, someday you'll understand.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: And he disappeared. And I was embarrassed by that. I
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: didn't tell many people about it. But 16 years later,
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: I became an atheist because I thought it was a
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: bad pizza. I had a bad pizza. You know, that
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: was just weird. But I couldn't get out of my mind.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: And so 16 years later, as an atheist, my wife
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: drags me to a church. And I'm sitting in the
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: church and I hear the gospel for the first time.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: It's not how good we try to behave that opens
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: the door of heaven. It is a free gift of
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: God's grace that we need to receive in repentance and faith.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: And my mind flashed back. That's what the angel was
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: telling me 16 years ago. Number one, he told me
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: something I did not know. That salvation is a free gift.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: You can't earn it. And secondly, he made a prophecy.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: Someday you'll understand. And 16 years later, I understood.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: So I was always embarrassed by it. And then I'm
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: being ordained. And as a pastor, and when you're ordained
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: to have all these theologians there questioning you about your theology,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: make sure you're okay, you know? And I'm thinking to myself,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: do I tell them about this angelic vision I had?
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: They're going to think I'm nuts. They're going to disqualify
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: me from being a pastor, but I can't hide it.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: I got to tell them. So I said, guys, I
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: just have to tell you something that happened to me.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: And it's as real as anything's ever happened in my life.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: It's the only vision or dream I remember from my childhood.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: Let me tell you, I told them the whole story
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: and they looked at me, you know what they said? Yeah,
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: we hear that kind of thing all the time. He said,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: that's fine. And it's a sigh of relief. But I was,
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: you know, like a lot of Americans, I was embarrassed
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: by the supernatural. You know, we think it's a little weird. We,
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: you know, so.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: I feel like that's starting to go away.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: I think it is. I hope it is. You know,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: I wrote that book, Seeing the Supernatural, to try to
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: document that there is a realm beyond what we can
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: see and touch and put in a test tube. And
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: it's been amazing how the response to that. And I
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: think you're right. I think people are recognizing that what
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: we see and touch, that is reality, but there is
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: a reality that goes beyond that.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: So let's go back to Mary.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Was this like a traditional nine-month pregnancy? Was it sped up?
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: I believe it was.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: And I'll tell you why. It ties into an interesting
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: thing I learned as I did this investigation. In earliest Christianity,
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: they did not observe birthdays. They thought it was a
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: waste of time. Why do you celebrate a birthday? In fact,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: they would make fun of the Romans. In fact, I
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: found some letters from some Christian leaders making fun of
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: the Romans. Why do you celebrate birthdays? That's silly. They
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: would only celebrate the days of martyrdom, people who died
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: for their faith. They'd remember and celebrate those days, but
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: not birthdays. So nobody knows when Jesus was born. The
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: Bible doesn't say. And nobody cared back then. Well, over
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: 150 years later, people began to wonder, hey, when was
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Jesus born? What was the day that he was born? Well,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: there was a very strong belief back then among Christians,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: a connection between creation and redemption, a very strong connection.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: And they believed, sounds a little weird to us, but
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: they believed the connection between creation and redemption was so
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: strong that the Messiah would have been conceived on the
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: same day of the calendar that he died. So in
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: the year 200, Tertullian, who was a Christian leader, said, well,
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: I can figure out when Jesus died. So based on
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: the Roman calendar of the day, he determined that Jesus
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: died on March the 25th. Therefore, they concluded, he must
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: have been conceived by the Holy Spirit on March the 25th.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Fast forward nine months, December the 25th. He would have
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: been born then on December the 25th. And many scholars
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: believe that is where they came up with December the
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: 25th as a day to celebrate for the birth of Jesus.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. In fact, very early, there was a guy named
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: Sexus Julius Africanus.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: He was conceived on March 25th.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Nine months later is December 25th.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Yep.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: That's the first time I've heard that.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Isn't it fascinating?
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: It's fascinating. Heard all kinds of wazoo, crazy. Crazy things.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: Maybe not crazy.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: We don't know, but I think that makes a lot
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: of sense based on their beliefs. Now, there was a
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: guy named Julius Sextus Africanus. He was a very early
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: church historian. And in the very early 200s AD, he
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: was writing a chronology about Christian events. And he said
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: in there that Jesus was conceived on March the 25th.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: How would he know?
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: How could he have possibly known that the Holy Spirit
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: conceived him? Because Tertullian had determined that he had died
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: on March the 25th. And that's why it goes down
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: in the history of Christianity as being the day of conception.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: And therefore, nine months later is December the 25th.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: Wow. Okay.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: So that I think is a fascinating, that's one of
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: the things I learned as I did the research for
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: the updated book.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: That is fascinating.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Isn't it? Yeah.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of different, Me too. Theories.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: Me too.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: That one lines up the best.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: From my opinion.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: There were some early Christian thinkers who said, well, based
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: on the fact that the shepherds were in the fields
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: with their sheep at night, they said, we think Jesus
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: was born on May 20th.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: So....
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: There you go. So on my calendar, I always mark
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: May 20th. I make it kind of a special day
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: because I figure, eh, I don't want to miss it
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: just in case. So I've got December 25th, I got
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: May 20th, kind of a backup Christmas.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: So who was Joseph?
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Joseph was probably a carpenter. Some think he was
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: a stonecutter or both. And a great man of faith.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: He was of the line of David. This is important
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: because of the conception of Jesus through the line of David,
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: even though he wasn't the biological father. It was still
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: through this relationship that he was born. Joseph died fairly young.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: We don't know exactly when, but all of a sudden,
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: he's not there in the Gospels anymore. And here's an interesting.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: How old is Jesus, when he stops appearing in the Gospels?
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: We don't really know.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: We don't know.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: We don't know the exact timing of when he died.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: Was it before Jesus' ministry or shortly thereafter? We don't know.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: But he disappears. And what's interesting is in Mark 6,
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: verse 3, Mark, who's writing the perspective of Peter, who's
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: one of the inner circle with Jesus, he refers to
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: Jesus as Mary's son. Well, in first century Hebrew culture,
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: you would never refer to someone as their mother's son.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Even if the father were deceased, you'd always refer to
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: him as Joseph's son. It should have been Joseph's son, Jesus.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: But he didn't say that. He says Mary's son, Jesus.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: And I think it was Mark's way, kind of a wink,
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: to say, yeah, I know. He wasn't the biological father.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Interesting. Yeah. So
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: it's kind of an interesting little, but anybody who's familiar
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: with Hebrew culture would tell you right off the bat, oh,
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: wait a minute, he's saying something there. He would never
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: call her Mary's son. So what was he then? Was
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: he chosen? Was he in some type of a relationship
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: with Mary? What was his role in Jesus's life?
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Was he a father figure? Was he a protector?
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: No, he seemed to have come into the scene because
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: of his relationship with Mary. He was going to marry Mary.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: They were engaged. And they had kind of a ritualistic
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: thing back then where you have a period of kind
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: of an engagement, your betrothed, they would say.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: So they weren't yet- Probably arranged marriages.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Probably so, probably so. And Joseph comes from the line
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: of David, which is important because the prophecy was that
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: the Messiah would come from the line of David. And Mary,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: of course, was a wonderful young woman. And he, traditionally, you're,
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: betrothed gets pregnant, not from you, you're a divorcer. Yeah,
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: a divorce. I mean, you'd walk away. He doesn't do that.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: He's reassured by an angel that, no, this is okay.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: This is the Holy Spirit's doing. And he stays with her.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: And so he apparently was, like her, a great person
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: of God that God trusted to be the conduit through
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: whom the Son of God would enter into humankind. Interesting.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Interesting. And then I want to go through the
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: whole thing. I mean, why Bethlehem?
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Bethlehem's important because it is the town of David.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: And there was a census that was taking place. And
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: here's another thing that just came out in recent years.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: You asked me what I learned new. many scholars criticize Luke,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: who wrote the gospel and the book of Acts, who says,
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: by the way, I carefully investigated everything so I could
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: write an orderly account about the certainty of what took place.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: So Luke is saying, hey, I checked all this out.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: I think he interviewed Mary. If not, he interviewed Joanna
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: and Susanna, who were friends of Mary, who he mentions
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: in his gospel. So Luke is writing about this experience.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: What was it that you want to know specifically again?
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Why Bethlehem? Oh, that's right. Okay.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: So people thought that Luke was wrong in his telling
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: of Mary and Joseph going to Bethlehem. And the reason was,
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: Luke said there was a census. And he said it
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: was the first census when Quirinius was governor. And the
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: census said, you have to go to your hometown. Well, Joseph...
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: was of the lineage of David. Bethlehem was his hometown.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: That was the town of David. And so he had
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: to go with Mary to Bethlehem to register for the census.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: But critics have said, no, no, no, Luke's got this
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: all wrong because the census took place when Quirinius became
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: governor in 6 AD. And yet King Herod was still alive,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: according to Luke. At the time of this, Herod died
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: in 4 BC. So that's a 10-year gap. Herod died,
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: and then 10 years later, Quirinius becomes governor, and the
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: census brings Mary and Joseph to Beth. It doesn't make sense.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: It doesn't add up. Something's wrong. And people would criticize
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: Luke and said, you don't know what you're talking about. Well,
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: turns out, as usual, Luke was right in the first place.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: Because the verse can be translated, the census took place
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: before Quirinius was governor. So that would account for an
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: earlier census. There were two censuses. The one when he
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: became governor became famous. It was written by a lot
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: of historians because the Jewish people rebelled against it. And
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: it became, there were a lot of conflicts and so forth.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: And so that census became famous. But there was apparently
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: an earlier census that didn't get that much, nobody cared
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: about it because nobody rebelled. And that was the one
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: that brought Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem. But there was
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: a recent discovery by a Swiss scholar where she found
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: that a guy named Justin Martyr, who was a very
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: early Christian defender of the faith, who said that Quirinius
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: was the procurator at the time of the census that
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: brought Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem. A procurator is someone
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: under the governor who would actually run a census. What's
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: interesting is, In the Gospel of Luke, where it says
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: that the census took place when Quirinius was governor, the
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: word governor there is not the typical word you would
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: use for governor. It's pretty elastic in the Greek, and
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: it could very well mean procurator. And so what apparently
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: happened is that this guy Quirinius, when he was procurator,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: was assigned to run a census to have all people
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: return to their hometown to be counted. And so Mary
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: and Joseph went to Bethlehem, And then later, he was
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: elevated to governor. And then he did another census in
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: 6 AD, and that's the one that got all the publicity.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: So they went to Bethlehem because Quirinius, the procurator, issued
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: a decree saying that everyone had to go to their hometown. Now,
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: you may think that's weird. Everybody's got to go to
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: their hometown to be counted? And yet we have documents
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: from other censuses that say the same thing.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: I guess this is pre-internet.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: It was pre-internet. That's right.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: So we have a document from the year 108 all
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: the way over in Egypt. And it talks about, hey,
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: you got to go to your hometown to be counted.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: And this would make sense that this would have a
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: census at that time because Herod was having some conflict
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: with his higher ups. And it would have been a time,
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: a good time. And Herod was sick. He was having
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: health problems. Would have been a good time to get
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: a good census before he passed away. So that does
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: make sense. So that's why they're in Bethlehem. By the way,
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: the birth of Jesus, of the Messiah in Bethlehem, was
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: predicted and prophesied 500 years in advance by the prophet Micah.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: In Micah 5, verse 2, it talks about the Messiah
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: will be born in this little town, 500 people, called Bethlehem.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: And sure enough, that's what happened.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Wow. But it was just for a census.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: It was just for a census. And we don't know
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: how long they lingered. how long they stayed. They may
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: have stayed for a couple of months or whatever. And
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: he may have owned property there. I don't know. But yeah,
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: that's what brought them down to Bethlehem at that time.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: That is not what I was expecting.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know what I was expecting to hear, but
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: it wasn't to comply with government counting.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, government counting.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: There you go, government getting their nose in.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's interesting. That is interesting. So what was the.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the star.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a very interesting question. The Bible refers, first
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: of all, to the Magi who were guided by a
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: star to come worship the child who was born. Who
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: are the Magi? We don't know a lot about them.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: The Bible doesn't go into a lot of detail. But
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: Magi were not looked well upon by Jewish people in
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: the day. Daniel, in his book in the Old Testament,
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: trashes them.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: What were they?
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: They were astrologers. They were divinators. They were magicians. They
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: studied the stars. They were astrologers, that kind of thing.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: And Daniel called them enchanters. He trashed them, which tells
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: us that Matthew, in talking about the Magi, he wasn't
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: making this up, because you'd never make up the Magi
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: coming to worship, because they didn't like the Magi. So
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: the Magi were from the Far East. We don't know
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: exactly where, Persia, maybe, probably. So they come seeking the
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Christ child. Why? Because they saw a star. Now, what
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: was the star? The word in Greek there for star
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: is flexible. It could mean any celestial body. It could
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: mean a comet. It could mean a planetary conjunction. It
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: could mean a star. It was kind of a flexible word.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: But it was a star that told them that the Hebrew.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: Messiah, so to speak, is coming. The king of the
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: Jews has been born. They see the star. Why didn't
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: everybody else see it? Why don't other historians say, oh, yeah,
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: there was that great star? Well, there are some theories
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: about that we can get into.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, if they're astrologers, they're always looking up there,
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: and they barely map the sky.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: Exactly. They see things that you and I wouldn't notice.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: What could the star have been?
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: So I got a question. So back then, did they
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: know the difference? I don't think they did. Did they
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: know the difference between stars and planets?
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, they did. Well, pretty much. And
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: they knew the difference between celestial bodies and how they rotate. Oh,
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: they were very careful to document things that way. And
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: so they see this star. My theory is it was
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: a nova. A nova is a star that burns brighter
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: for a while and then grows dimmer and then brighter
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: for a while. And you and I wouldn't have noticed it.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: But to them, especially where it was positioned in the sky,
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: would tell them, uh-oh, something big is going on. I
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: think it was a nova. There was a nova that
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: was seen by Chinese astronomers for 70 days in about
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: the year 5 BC, which would have been before Herod
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: died in 4 BC. So it could have been that nova.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: Others say there was a planetary conjunction In other words,
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: an unusual conjunction between the planets of Jupiter and Saturn
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: that took place about 7 BC in the constellation of Pisces.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't care about that, but they would have. To them,
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: according to Raymond Brown, great scholar, he said, to them,
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: that would have sent the signal that a Hebrew king
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: has come into the world who will ultimately rule everything.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: So from that conjunction, they read into it astrologically and
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: so forth and came to that conclusion, I think. We
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: don't know for sure. It wasn't Halley's Comet. Some people
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: used to say it was Halley's Comet. That was in
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: 12 BC. That was too early. It could have been
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: the things I mentioned. And so this star causes them
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: to go to Jerusalem because they're looking for the king
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: of the Jews. Where do you go? You go to Jerusalem.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: And they said to Herod, hey, where is this guy born?
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: And Herod freaks out. What do you mean a king?
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: What do you mean a king of the Jews is born?
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: He's freaking out. He brings in his Hebrew scholars. He says, hey,
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: where's the Messiah going to be born? And they say, well,
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: that's easy. Micah 5, verse 2, he's going to be
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: born in Bethlehem. Okay, thanks. He gets the Magi. He says, hey, guys,
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: go to Bethlehem. So the Magi head out for Bethlehem.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: And as they do, they see that star again. My
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: theory is it's the same supernova that God had supernaturally moved.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't have noticed another scar in the sky. You
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: wouldn't have noticed it. They noticed it. And it guided
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: them to the place where it says, not the baby was,
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: says where the child was. Because we don't know how
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: long after the birth this was. Now Jesus is being
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: referred to as a child, not just a baby.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay. So maybe this wasn't the night of the birth.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: No, it wasn't the night of the birth.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: For sure, it was not the night of the birth. Yeah,
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: it was later.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: So... That is apparently... Now, here's a significant of the Magi, theologically.
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: The Magi brought gifts that were... In the Old Testament,
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: it mentions certain gifts that were fit for a king.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: Three of those gifts. One was gold, referring to royal nature.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: One was frankincense, a spice that referred to a priestly function.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: And interestingly, the third one was myrrh. Myrrh was used
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: in embalming dead people in those days. To me, that's foreshadowing.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: Why was Jesus born into this world? To die. He
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: was to ultimately give up his life to pay for
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: the sins of humankind. And I think the gift of
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: the myrrh is a way of almost saying, This is
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: for his ultimate death. Now, it's interesting, on the cross,
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: when Jesus is being crucified, they offered him a mixture
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: of water and myrrh to ease the pain, and he
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: refused it. So they give these gifts. They may have
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: been emissaries of a king. That's why they came. Maybe
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: a king sent them. But here's the theological significance. And
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: I think this is, when I think about it, this
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: is what blows my mind. For Jewish people of the
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: first century, They thought the Messiah would be a political savior.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: He was going to overthrow the Romans. He was going
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: to elevate the Jewish nation above every other nation. He
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: was going to create this Jewish culture that dominates and
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: that rules the world and so forth. He was going
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: to be the Messiah, their answer to all that. But
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: here come the Magi, pagans, Gentiles. They come to do what?
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: To worship the baby Jesus, the child Jesus. That theological
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: significance is Jesus was not, he is for the Jewish people,
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: but it goes beyond that. That Jesus is the savior,
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: not just of the Jewish people, but for all humankind.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: Even these magi who were Gentiles, who were pagans, even
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: they came, sinners who came to worship, they were included
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: in God's plan of redemption. That to me was a
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: real eye-opening thing of these magi showing up to pay
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: homage to Jesus.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: Wow. Thank you. Thank you. Lee, let's take a quick break.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Listen up. 2026 is the year you finally launch that
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: business you've been dreaming about. Don't let February arrive with
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: the same old story. Taking action is the key. Let
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: this be the year you become an entrepreneur or founder.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: One move puts your future in your hands. Starting a
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: business with Shopify. Maybe it's an idea you can't shake.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: A craft everyone tells you to sell or a story
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: you've already designed in your head. With Shopify, 2026 is
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: when you make it real. Shopify gives you everything you
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: need to sell online and in person. Millions of entrepreneurs
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: have made this leap. Take me as an example. I
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: started using Shopify to sell gummy bears, and now I
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: run my entire e-commerce business on the platform. And you
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: can too. You get the tools to easily build your
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: dream store, customize a beautiful template, launch quickly, and use
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: Shopify's built-in AI to write product descriptions and headlines. As
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: you grow, Shopify grows with you. More orders, new markets,
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: all from one dashboard. In 2026, stop waiting. and start
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: selling with Shopify. Sign up for your $ 1 per month
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: trial and start selling today at shopify.com.srs. Go to shopify.com.srs.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: That's shopify.com.srs. Hear your first This New Year with Shopify
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: by your side. Want to stay up to date on
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: all things SRS? You bet your ass you do. Our
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: newsletter brings you the latest SRS news and critical updates.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: Get instant alerts on the newest episodes. Never miss a beat.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: Exclusive intel briefs from counterterrorism expert Sarah Adams. You've seen
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: her many times on the show. She's going to give
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: unfiltered insights on global terrorist activity. For Patreon exclusives, you're
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: going to get epic range days with me and damn
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: near every guest that's come in the studio. You're also
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: going to get behind the scenes content and guest updates.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: You're going to get first dibs on new merch drops
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: and limited edition items that will never be sold again. Plus,
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: exclusive offers from our partners you won't find anywhere else.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: So subscribe to the Vigilance Elite newsletter right now. All right, Lee,
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: we're back from the break. And while we were on
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: the break, you had mentioned that Mary and Joseph took
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: the gold and sold it.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: They probably did. A lot of scholars believe, well, they
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: had to finance their trip to Egypt because they were
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: avoiding Herod, who wanted to kill all the children who
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: may be the threatening Messiah. And so how did they
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: finance their trip to Egypt? Some scholars believe they took
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: the gold that they got, and fortuitously, sold that so
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: they could go off and protect themselves from the evil
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: intentions of King Herod.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: So do we know, I mean, earlier you had mentioned
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: that the, excuse me, the three wise men.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: You know, that they, it didn't look like that they
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: were there the day of the birth.
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: And so how old, is there any, do you have
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: any thoughts on how old Jesus was when they fled
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: to Egypt?
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: Based on when that star first appeared, Herod said, I'm
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: going to kill all the male children in Bethlehem up
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: to the age of, what was it, two, I think
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: it was. So that gives some idea of the timeframe. Now,
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: one of the criticisms you hear from skeptics is to say, well,
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: wait a minute. You're telling me that King Herod goes
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: in and kills all these kids under the age of
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: two in Bethlehem and nobody else in history reports it?
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, shouldn't Josephus, the historian from the first century,
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: have said something about this? And the answer is, Probably not.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's a town of 500.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: It's a town of 500. So how many kids under
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: two would there be? Maybe a dozen or so. And
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: it was in the middle of nowhere. I mean, it
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: was not on a major highway. It wasn't a major city.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: And Herod was a bloodthirsty king. He killed members of
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: his own family. He was killing everybody. And so it
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: wouldn't be news that he decided to kill a bunch
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: of babies. And it took time for news to get
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: out back then. There was no CNN. There was no
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: Fox News. There was no satellite coverage. And so this
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: took place in an obscure little town, and yeah, a
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: couple of dozen kids were killed, which was, by the way,
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: prophesied in the Old Testament as well. So this is
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: another fulfillment of prophecy.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: How?
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: There was a problem. I'm trying to think of the
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: exact reference, but there was a prophet about the weeping
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: that would take place And the context suggests that this
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: is referring to the murder of the children in Bethlehem.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: So this was, there's so many ancient prophecies about the
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: coming of the Messiah. So many that Jesus could not
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: have intentionally fulfilled them. In other words, one of the
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: prophecies is that Jesus rode a donkey into Jerusalem before
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: he was put to death. Well, so what? He could
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: choose to do that. Okay, I know there's a prophecy
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: about that. Go find me a donkey and I'll ride
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: it in. They'll think I'm the Messiah. You know, he
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: could have arranged, but there are things he could not
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: have arranged. His lineage, he couldn't arrange. He couldn't have
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: arranged that the soldiers gamble for his clothes when he
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: was on the cross. He couldn't have arranged for a
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: lot of things, like where he was born. Daniel even
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: prophesied the timeframe in which he was born. There were
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: all these things that he couldn't have arranged. So there
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: was a scholar by the name of Dr. Peter Stoner,
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: a mathematician at a college in California. And he said,
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: wait a minute, some of these prophecies could be mathematically quantifiable.
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: They're quantifiable. For instance, Micah 5 verse 2 says the
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. How many people have
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: been born in Bethlehem? We can calculate that. So let's
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: get the ones that can be calculated and run the numbers.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: And you know what they found?
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: Wow. It ain't
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: going to happen. You get to numbers like that and
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: you can confidently say that ain't going to happen by chance.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: And yet Jesus did it. in fulfillment to prove he
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: is who he claimed to be, the unique, the Messiah,
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: the unique son of God. So there's these prophecies that
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: point to him, where he was born, that's how they
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: knew it was gonna be in Bethlehem.
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: How many prophecies are there?
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: Gosh, it depends on how you look at them. Some
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: are more foreshadowings, a little less explicit. Some are very explicit.
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: For instance, Isaiah 53 in the Old Testament, this Hebrew
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: writing written hundreds of years before Jesus was born. If
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: I were to read that to you right now and say,
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: who does this describe? You would say, Jesus. It was
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: written hundreds of years before he was born. It is
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: a picture of the suffering messiah, And it's so powerful
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: that many Jewish people become Christians just reading this prophecy
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: in Isaiah. I have a friend named Louis Lapidus. He
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: was a Vietnam veteran, came back from Nam, walking down
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: the sidewalk in Hollywood, and he runs into a street preacher. Yeah, Jesus, Jesus.
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: And I don't believe it. I'm Jewish. I don't believe
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: in Jesus. And he said, oh, why don't you read this?
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: And he reads it. And he realizes this from Isaiah,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: the Jewish prophet Isaiah, hundreds of years in advance, this
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: is Jesus. But you know what he said? That can't
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: be true. The Christians must have changed it. So he
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: called up a relative. He says, send me the original
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: Hebrew scripture so I can compare. So he gets them.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: He looks at, it's the same. It's the same. And
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: he becomes not only a Christian, he becomes a pastor
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: in Thousand Oaks, California.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: And what was that?
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: It's Isaiah 53. It's a description of the suffering Messiah,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: the death and resurrection of Jesus. It's absolutely flabbergasting. I
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: don't know how anybody can read it and not conclude, oh,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: that's referring to Jesus. Want to read it? Good, if
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: you've got a Bible handy.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: I've got a couple hundred of them here. Let me
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: just one second.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, you know what? I wonder if I have
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: it in here.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: All right, here we go. King James.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: Oh, King James. Okay, that's good. Hold on a second.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: Is that going to work?
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: That would work, yeah. Hold on, let me check. I
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: may just have it in here. Yeah, here, I got
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: it right here. Got it in the book. Yep. I
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: have a chapter on the fulfillment of prophecies in the book. So,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: now I don't have my reading glasses, so I'm going
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: to look like a dork reading this, but... Here's Isaiah 53.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: You want me to read it? No, I'll read it.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: Ask yourself, who does this sound like? He was despised
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering and familiar
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: with pain. Like one from whom people hid their faces,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: he was despised and we held him in low esteem.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: Yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: and afflicted. but he was pierced for our transgressions. He
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: was crushed for our inequities. The punishment that brought us
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: like all sheep, have gone astray. Each of us has
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: turned to our own way, and the Lord has laid
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. He
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: a sheep before God, His shears is silent. So he
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment, he
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: he was cut off from the land of the living.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: For the transgression of my people, he was punished. He
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: was assigned a grave with the wicked and with the
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: rich in his death. Though he had done no violence,
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it was
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: And though the Lord makes his life an offering, and
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: he will see his offspring and prolong his days. And
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: those who continue to live on. And the will of
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: the Lord will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered,
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: he will see the light of life. He will come
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: back and be satisfied. By his knowledge, my righteous servant
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: will justify many and he will bear their iniquities. He
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: will die for our sins. For he bore the sins
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: of many and made intercession for the transgressors. Wow. So
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: there's the prediction that the Messiah would suffer and die
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: for our sins. He would be afflicted by God. He
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: would pay the penalty we deserve for the sins we've committed.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: And yet he would be resurrected. He would continue to
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: live on. He was assigned a grave, but he continued
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: to live on. He was resurrected from the dead. He
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: conquered death. That passage from Isaiah has led many Jewish
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: people to faith in Jesus, like my friend Louis Lapidus. So,
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: you know, that's just one of many predictions, prophecies made
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: hundreds of years in advance of the birth of Jesus
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: on Christmas.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: Wow. That's really cool.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: Isn't it cool?
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: Yes, it is.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a picture. Who would have thought that the
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: Messiah would suffer? Really? I mean, that didn't make sense
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: back then. Why? He was paying our transgressions. He was
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: paying for our sin. Oh, really? That's what the entire
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: Jewish sacrificial system had foretold of the sacrificing of animals
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: for sin. It was foreshadowing that ultimately the Son of
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: God who lived the perfect life, who was fully God
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: and fully man, would pay the penalty of death so
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: that our sins would be paid for and he could
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: offer forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift of
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: his grace. The thing about Christmas is it makes no
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: sense without Easter. You know, Jesus did not just come
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: into the world so he could show us how to
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: live a good life. He did that. If you read
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes, his teachings
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: of how to live are brilliant and wonderful. We can't
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: live up to that. We can emulate it as best
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: we can. We all fall short. His mission was not
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: to be born only and live. It was to die,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: to pay the penalty that we deserve. And that's what
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: makes Christmas, you know, The best stories are the ones
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: that turn out to be true. And so because it's true,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: that gives it just an awe-inspiring nature.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. How many, who had knowledge of Jesus' coming other
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: than Mary and Joseph?
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: Oh, that it would be the Messiah. And well, Elizabeth,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: the cousin, probably understood because she gave birth to John
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: the Baptist and And John knew from the outset that
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: this was going to be who Jesus was. When he
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: heard the news about the coming Messiah, the pregnancy of Mary,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: he jumped in his mother's womb. So that was the
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: first person to recognize Jesus as being the Messiah was John,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: still in the.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: Womb of his mother. Wait, what? Yeah.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: Elizabeth finds out about the pregnancy of Mary, that she's
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: carrying the Messiah. And she's carrying John the Baptist, and
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: he leaps in her womb for joy at this news
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: that the Messiah is coming. So the first person ever
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: to recognize Jesus being a Messiah was an unborn child
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: by the name of John.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: Wow. But that's it. So it wasn't God or any
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: of these other.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: Joseph knew because an angel appeared to Joseph and told
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: him what was going on. So Joseph knew. Now, who
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: they told and who they led into this, I don't know.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: But it was, there was a probably small group that
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: understood what was going on.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: Now, how fast do you think the word spread?
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: Oh, it spread fast when the shepherds came in. It
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: says they ran into Bethlehem when the angel told them
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: that the Messiah was is now born in the city
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: of David. And it says they ran into town to
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: check it out themselves. And they checked it out themselves.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: They found him and so forth. And it says they
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: were telling everybody, hey, guess what? So the news started. Now,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: we didn't have the internet, of course, back then. So
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: news spread a little slower than it does today. But
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: the news was getting out.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: So it was... It was them. It was the shepherds
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: that spread the word.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: They were starting to tell people, yeah.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: But nobody knew anything other than what the shepherds were spreading.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: Probably not. Thinking back, I mean, certainly when King Herod
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: was told by his advisors that the child would be
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: born in Bethlehem, that news began to spread around Jerusalem
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: because it upset Herod.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: Who told him that?
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: His advisors, his Jewish advisors. When the Magi came and said, hey,
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: we're looking for the king of the Jews. Where is he?
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: And they figured maybe Jerusalem, right? And Herod says, hold
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: on a minute. Gets his Jewish advisors and says, where
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: is the king of Jews going to be born? Bethlehem.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: And then he's the one that told the Magi, go
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: to Bethlehem. And they saw the star that confirmed it. But.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: How do the advisors know? Is this from.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: Because of Micah chapter 5, verse 2. Really? Yeah, the
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: ancient prophecy. They studied these prophecies. They knew them. They
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: lived by them. And they were living in anticipation that
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: the Messiah would come. Daniel, the prophet Daniel.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: So did the advisors think this was a bad thing?
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: No, they probably would have been excited, I'm guessing, that
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: these Magi are coming and looking for, yeah, because it's
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: like they were Jewish.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: So the only hatred for Jesus is Herod Herod's for
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: a power struggle.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: It was a power struggle. Herod was afraid that he
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: would grow up and usurp his throne.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: Humans addicted to power.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: That's right. And Herod was a, he was crazy and
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: ill at the time. He was not doing well. He
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: didn't have a long time to live. He had killed relatives.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: He'd kill all kinds of people. He was a ruthless,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: bloodthirsty person. And, you know, he had, I mean, just
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: to order the destruction of these children. No problem. Get
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: rid of them that way. But an angel had warned
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: Mary and Joseph, hey, don't go back to Nazareth yet.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: go to Egypt and hang out for a while until
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: things settle down with Herod. And that's what they did.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: Where was Jesus throughout his childhood? I mean, we don't
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: know anything.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: We don't know a lot. We don't know a lot.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: There's some apocryphal literature that suggests that he went off
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: to India. There's some stories about him being in India.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: They're not well supported. We don't know. And I think
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: the reason we don't know is it's not really ultimately important.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: It says he continued to grow in wisdom. So we
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: know that that took place. We know his father died
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: at some point before he got too old. And he
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: was probably very busy being a carpenter himself, no doubt.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: But I think because the scriptures don't really go into
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: that detail, it's probably because, man, it's really not that
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: important what he was doing. But people have tried to
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: fill it in through the years, you know? So you
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: see some of these stories that will pop up in
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: what's called non-canonical. In other words, it's not- Very far-fetched. Yeah,
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: kind of far-fetched stuff. There's one far-fetched story. You know,
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: one of the stories about Christmas is that Mary was
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: on the verge of giving birth as she's arriving in Bethlehem.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: We don't know that. Luke says, while they were in Bethlehem,
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: the baby was born. Doesn't say five minutes, doesn't say
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: five days, doesn't say five weeks or five months. We
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: don't know how long she was there.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: So it wasn't a big rush to get to Bethlehem.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: We don't know.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: There was a book of fiction that was written in
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: 200 AD. So that's like, you know, a couple hundred
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: years later that has no connection to the eyewitnesses. And
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: in that book of fiction, it was called the Proto-Evangelism,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: Proto-Evangelium of James. Had no connection to James or anybody.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: It was just fictional. And in that account, it says
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: that Mary and Joseph got within three miles of Bethlehem
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: and the baby was coming. So they went into a
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: cave and gave birth in a cave among the animals
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: in the cave. That's where this idea that some think
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: about of giving birth in a cave, that's where that
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: came from. It's a book of fiction. It has no
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: historical validity. So that didn't really happen. But the biggest
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: mistake in terms of historical understanding of Christmas boils down
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: to one word, one word in the Greek and how
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: it gets translated or mistranslated. Here's the typical story we
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: hear at Christmas. Mary and Joseph, because of the census,
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: had to go to Bethlehem to be counted in the
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: census because he was of the house of David. So
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: they go to Bethlehem and Mary's pregnant and she's getting
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: close to giving birth. They knock on the door of
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: an inn or a lodge and the innkeeper opens the
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: door and says, hey, no room, sorry. She closes the door.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: What are they going to do? They go off into
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: a stable and they give birth among the animals in
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: the stable. And then she lays the baby in the
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: clean hay of a manger or a feeding trough. That's
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: the typical story you hear. It all depends on one word.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: And the Greek word is katalima. And how is that?
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: Because here's what Luke says, and this is how all
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: this comes about. Luke says, When the baby was born,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: he was put into a manger because there was no
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: room for them in the catalima. King James Version translated
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: that word as inn. Some other early writings translate it
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: as inn, but that's probably not the correct translation. Luke
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: only uses the word catalima one other time in his gospel.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: When he does, it's referring to a room in a residence.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: When he was referring to an inn or a lodge,
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: he used another word, pandohayon. He doesn't use that here.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: He uses katalima. Well, what was a katalima? Well, you
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: have to understand what a house looked like in the
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: first century Jewish culture in Bethlehem. A house was one
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: big room divided into two parts. There was the bigger part,
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: and that was the living area where the family would
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: live and sleep and cook and so forth. And there
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: were a couple of steps down into a smaller area.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: And that's where the animals were brought at night because
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: the animals were like pets. I mean, you ever see
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: a baby sheep, little lamb? They're cute, you know, and
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: the kids love to pet them. Even baby goats are cute.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: So they would come in and they would stay inside
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: during the night. There was a manger there with hay
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: in it. But sometimes they would walk up the few
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: steps into the living area, and they were like pets.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: So they'd pet them, and so they had a manger
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: in the living area too, so that if the animals
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: came up, they could eat. That's what a typical house
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: looked like. The wealthier people had a qatalimah. That was
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: a guest room. That was an add-on, another room that
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: had a separate entrance. And so they had, in effect,
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: two rooms, the katalima, the guest room, as well as
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: the living area and the animal area. What apparently happened
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: is that Mary and Joseph were coming into Bethlehem and
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: they went to a home of a relative and knocked
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: on the door and said, hey, we're here for the census.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: And the person said, oh, yeah, we got a lot
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: of people coming for the census. Everything's crowded. We don't
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: have room in the guest room, the katalima. I'm sorry,
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: there's no room. So she could come and you could
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: stay in the family area, the living area. And so
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: Mary and Joseph probably lived and stayed in that living
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: area of the home until the baby was born. And
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: you know what? Some of the animals may have heard
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: the commotion and come up the stairs to see what
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: was going on. They were proud. They may have witnessed it.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: And then after... Jesus was born, she placed him in
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: the clean hay of the feeding trough, the manger there
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: in the living area. That's probably what took place. Interestingly,
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: in the year 1395, so this predates the King James Version.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: In the year 1395, John Wycliffe did his translation into
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: English of the Bible, the New Testament. And the word
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 2: he chose for Catalima was gestrum, his room. Today, The
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: most popular translation of the Bible into English in America
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: is NIV, the New International Version. If you look it
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: up in there, it doesn't say there was an inn.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: There's no inn. There's no innkeeper. It's the guest room.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: I think that's what really happened. So it kind of
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: messes a little bit with our image of Christmas, but
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: that's probably a more accurate translation of what's going on.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: So it does kind of change things a bit. But
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: I think linguistically, it makes more sense. And the scholars
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: who I talk to think, no, that's probably the better
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: translation of that word. And it's really just one word.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: There was no room for them at the Catalima. How
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: do you, oh, guest room. Oh, now it just changes everything.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: And I think with an understanding of what a house
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: looked like back then, it makes even more sense than that.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: By the way, we don't know that there were any
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: inns in Bethlehem. As we said, it was a small town,
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: 500 people. It was not on major highways. There may
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: or may not have been an inn there, but here's
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: the other thing. In first century Jewish culture, it would
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: have been unthinkable for an innkeeper to turn away a
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: pregnant Jewish woman. You could not do that. You would
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: be ostracized by the community because hospitality was a huge
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: value in those days. If an innkeeper turned away a
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: pregnant Jewish woman, he'd be run out of town on
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: a rail. He'd be out of business. You just could
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: not do that. So that's another reason why I think
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: that's not the right translation. I think the right one
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: is the one the NIV uses, which is guest room.
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Wow. Isn't that fascinating? That is. I mean, how...
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: What does it feel like to.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: Kind of come on this stuff? I know it's so,
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: this is what, you know, I'm a journalist. I'm trained
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: in law, but I'm trained in journalism. I investigate things.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: And so, and you investigate things and you know what
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: the feeling is like when you probe something and you
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: find out something that makes you go, oh my goodness,
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: this changes everything. This changes the narrative of how Christmas
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: took place. That one word, oh my goodness. I just
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: love that. I love how God took my sinful, immoral, profane,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: narcissistic life and brought me to faith in him and
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: transformed my soul and changed my character and changed my
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: values and changed my philosophy. But he also said, I'm
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: going to keep your journalistic curiosity. You use it for
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: evil sometimes when you were a journalist. I mean, I
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 2: hurt some people intentionally with my articles. I'm going to
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: redeem that and I'm going to use it for good.
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: And now I get to I get to travel and
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: interview some of the greatest scholars in the world. And
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: these scholars are so brilliant that nobody understands them. And
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: so I sit there and I interview them sometimes for
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: two days and I force them to explain things so
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: I can understand it. Because I figure if I can
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: understand it, anybody can understand it. And then I'm able
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: to put it into a narrative that everybody can get.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: So God said, I'm going to take what you use
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: for evil in many cases, and I'm going to keep
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: that skill in you. That's who you are. You're a journalist.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: You're an investigator. I'm going to use that for my purposes.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: And so virtually all my books, that's the format. It
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: ain't me, the world's leading scholar. I just go find
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: the world's leading scholar. I do like you do. You
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: find people and you bring them in. I go to
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: them and I question. I remember some of my transcripts
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: of my interviews with these experts are 50,000 words. Whoa.
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: That's a book. That's twice, more than twice the size
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: of this book because I want to spend time to
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: really get what they're talking about. because they write on
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: this incredible elevated level, and so few of them can
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: put the cookies on the bottom shelf so we all
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: can enjoy them. So anyway, that sense of discovery that
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 2: you go through as well when you're interviewing someone, you go,
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: I never thought of that. I never knew that before.
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: I get to do that all the time.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: I love that. What you're kicking over is a lot
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: bigger than the timely bullshit news that I'm kicking over.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: But man, that has got to feel like just incredible.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: It's awesome. It's awesome.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: And things I always wondered about. Like here's one I
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: always wondered about. Is it okay? I hear people criticize Christians.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: I hear Christians criticize people because they would spell Christmas X-M-A-S. Say, oh,
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: you're taking Christ out of Christmas.
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: What do you think of that?
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: Well, there may be people, that's their intention. but that's
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: not what they're doing. And here's the reason. Again, this
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: is something I learned. I go, oh my goodness, this
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: explains it. In the earliest days of Christianity, they were
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: being oppressed. And they would often abbreviate Christos, which was
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: the Greek word for Christ, the Messiah, the Savior. So
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: the Greek word Christos began with an X. It was
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: called chi in the Greek. So the first letter of
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: Christ is, was an X, meaning pronounced Chi. The second
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: word was a P, and it was pronounced Ro. So
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: the first two letters of Christ, or the Messiah, the Savior, Christ,
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: in the Greek was called Cairo. That became a standard
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: abbreviation in the early days of Christianity. So in other words,
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: the Christians were going to get together at a certain location.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: They didn't want the Romans to know that they were
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: going to get together because they're going to be persecuted.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: So they would leave in the sand or something, they'd
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: leave an X and a P.
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: No kidding, so it was code.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, a code. And the Romans wouldn't know
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: what that was, but they knew that Cairo meant, it
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: meant Christ. So in the year 1025, a scribe was
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: writing some Christian materials on parchment. Well, parchment was very expensive.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: So he was trying to save some parchment. So as
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: he's writing it, he gets the word Christmas. And he's
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: thinking that's gonna take up a lot of space. So
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: he abbreviates it Cairo, X-P-M-A-S, to save space, to save parchment.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: And it caught on and it got abbreviated later even
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: further to just X-M-A-S. So the X in XMAS refers
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 2: to Christ. You're not taking him out of Christmas if
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: you just put XMAS. You're just abbreviating it in a
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: way that even the earliest Christians did. In fact- That's
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: actually kind of cool. It is kind of cool. And
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: get this, get this. Remember, when was it? I don't
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: know the year, but remember when all the immigrants were
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: coming over to, was it Ellis Island in New York?
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: They were immigrating into New York in the early days.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 2: And many Jewish people were immigrating into the United States.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: And they were illiterate. They couldn't read. And so the
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: immigration officials would say, okay, sign your name here. They
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: couldn't sign their names. They couldn't spell. They couldn't read.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: So the immigration official would say, well, just put an X.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: Because we sometimes put an X. They wouldn't do it.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: Because these Jewish people knew, no, no, no, no. That
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: X means Christ. They put an O. To contrast with
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: the X.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: No way. Yes.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: So they said, I'm not putting... So they even knew
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: back then, this was when, in 1920s, whenever that was,
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: that big influx of immigrants, they even knew, don't put
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: an X because that's saying Christ. I'm going to put
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: an O instead. It was a Yiddish, referring to a
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: Yiddish word. So they were aware of this. So I
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: think a lot of people, now there may be atheists
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: who are trying to take Christ out of Christmas, who
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: you do that with ill intent.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: I've always heard, don't write it like that.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: I have too.
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: It was raised.
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: I have too. And I think that's because people said
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: you're taking Christ. No, you're not really. You're just abbreviating.
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 2: In fact, the word Christmas is an abbreviation itself from
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: Christ's mass. So Christmas itself is an abbreviation. So it's
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: okay to abbreviate it XMAS. I like that.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: I feel like that's a little insert you should put
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: on your Christmas card. Yeah, yeah, there you go.
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: There you go.
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: Man, man. I'm curious, you know, I've talked to, I
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: told you, I don't know if you remember, I grew
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: up Catholic. I still go back and forth. I like both.
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: But You know, one thing that I find interesting, I'm
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: just curious to hear your thoughts, is when I'm talking
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: to Christians, non-denominational Christians, Christians like yourself, at least I
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: think you think this, the gates of heaven are wide open.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: When I talk to people that I respect in the
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: Catholic Church, the gates are about this narrow. What are
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: your thoughts on that?
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: Well, Jesus said the way is narrow. He did say
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: the way is narrow. He did say that, yeah. He
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: said wide is the road that leads to destruction, but
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 2: narrow is the gate that leads to life. It is
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: narrow because the way I see that, understanding that is
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 2: it's narrow because it's only through him. It's narrow because
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: he is the only passage to heaven. That redemption only
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: comes through Jesus Christ. I think that's what he meant
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: by saying the road is narrow. You have to follow him.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: So how many people will actually end up in heaven?
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: Is it all the believers?
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's anyone who puts their trust in Christ.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 2: Anybody who, we're all sinners, the Bible says. The way
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 2: I look at it is, you know, the Bible's 80,000 words,
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: and you can summarize the whole Bible in 21 words.
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: One verse, Romans 6, 23. For the wages of sin
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: is death, but the free gift of God is eternal
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: life through Christ Jesus our Lord. The wages of sin
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: is death. In other words, what we deserve, what we've earned,
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: the consequences of living a life apart from God, denying him,
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 2: violating his laws and his morality, the consequence of that
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: is death, which means eternal separation from God. That's what
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: hell is. But the verse says, the free gift, and
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: it's interesting, most translations don't say free gift. They should
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 2: say gift because all gifts are free. But the translation
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: I like, includes the word free to emphasize the free
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 2: In other words, Jesus, fully God and fully man, lived
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 2: the perfect life. He dies on a cross to pay
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: the penalty we deserve for the sins that we've committed.
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: And he offers forgiveness and eternal life as a free
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: gift of his grace. And anyone who receives that gift
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: becomes a child of God, and the doors of heaven
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 2: will be flung open for them. So I think the
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: narrowness mainly refers to narrow in the sense that it
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 2: only comes through one person. It comes through Jesus. Nobody
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: else can atone for our sins. We're either going to
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: pay for our sins. Somebody's going to pay for our sins.
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 2: It's either going to be us and we're going to
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: spend eternity separated from God because only perfect people end
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: up in heaven. We're not perfect. So we got a
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 2: problem if we're going to pay for our sins ourselves.
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: We're going to be eternally separated from God. That's what
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: hell is. Or We can receive this free gift of redemption,
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: this free gift of God paying for our sins through
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: Jesus Christ and offering it as a free gift of
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: his grace. So those are kind of the two choices.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: How many people through history will have received that gift
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: and will spend eternity in heaven? We'll find out someday.
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 2: But I think that narrowness refers to the way it's
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 2: narrow because it goes through one person.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: It's interesting because if you believe it doesn't really seem
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: that narrow.
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, except it's believe in what? Believe in Jesus.
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: That's that one person. That's what I think makes it narrow.
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: It's not like you can have a belief. in Krishna.
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: I can believe in Allah. I can believe in all
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: these different things. No, no, no. It is only through
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. And it's very interesting. You know, when I
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: was an atheist and I did my investigation into Christianity,
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 2: I also investigated other religions too. And I investigated Islam.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: And I read the Koran. And what struck me about
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: the Quran is how it specifically denies the exact things
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 2: you need to believe, according to Christianity, to be saved.
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: Number one, it says in the Quran, in Surah 4,
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: verse 157, that Jesus didn't die on the cross. Well,
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: if he didn't die on the cross, there's no atonement
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: for sin and there's no resurrection and conquering of death.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: Number two, the Quran says that God doesn't have a son.
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: It specifically says that. Number three, the Quran says no
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: one can bear the sins of another. Well, that's what
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: Jesus did on the cross. The three very things I
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: need to believe to be a Christian is that Jesus
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: is the unique son of God, that he went to
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: the cross, he paid the penalty we deserve for the
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: sins we committed, he carried our sins, he paid for
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: our sins, and he was resurrected from the dead, conquering
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: death and proving he is who we claim to be,
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: the unique son of God. So here I am reading
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: the Quran and I'm reading the Bible and I'm saying, okay,
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 2: either they're both false or one of them is true.
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: They cannot both be true at the same time. They
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 2: can't be. If the Quran is true, the Bible is false.
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: If the Bible is true, the Quran is false. They
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 2: can't both be true. So I had to look which one?
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: And that's what led me to conclude that I can
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 2: trust the Bible because of largely the resurrection of Jesus,
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: the historical data that established that he was born on Christmas.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: He lived the perfect life. He died. And then the
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: incredible evidence, he was resurrected from the dead to prove
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: that he is who he claimed to be, the unique
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: son of God. So, I mean, I've got a good
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 2: friend whose name you would know, who is a Muslim.
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 2: And he came over to my house for dinner And
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 2: because his girlfriend had become a Christian, she read my book,
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 2: The Case for Christ, and she became a Christian. So
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 2: he was wanting some answers. So he comes over to
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 2: my house for dinner and we're cooking steaks.
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: Did this guy write a book?
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: He's written six books. Yeah. I don't know if he
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 2: would mind if I said his name or not. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 2: the number one scorer in the NBA until what's his
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: name from the Lakers succeeded him as the number one scorer.
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 2: But Kareem, became a friend of mine. His girlfriend became
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: a Christian through my book, Gays for Christ, and invited
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: me over to their place. I spent many hours with Kareem. Great,
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: great guy. Loved him. Brilliant guy. Very smart. He's written
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: several books. And he came over to my house for dinner.
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 2: And at one point, I said to him, let's set
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: aside religion. And let's just look at the evidence from
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 2: history for the resurrection of Jesus. And I said, and
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: I went through the evidence I've got, and it's substantial
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 2: right there from the first century. And I said, now,
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 2: what do Muslims have? They've got someone who says that
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: an angel told him in a cave 600 years later
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: that that isn't true, that Jesus didn't really die on
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: the cross. And yet I've got all this data saying
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: he did. I said, set aside religion. Where does the
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 2: evidence point? And he was very thoughtful about it. And
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: he said, you know, I choose to believe the Quran. Okay.
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, you're free to do that, but I couldn't
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: do it. I was following where I think the evidence
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: of history most persuasively points. And, you know, I pray
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: for Kareem. He's a great, great guy. I introduced him
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: to Mel Gibson back when The Passion of Christ was
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: going to come out. And I have a picture in
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: a hallway of of Kareem, who's like 7'2. I mean,
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: you can't believe how tall they are. Because you see
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 2: him playing basketball and they all are tall, right? No, no, no.
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: You get him in a room? Oh my goodness. So
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: he's like 7'2. And Mel Gibson's about, I don't know, 5'8, maybe? 5'7?
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 2: He's not tall at all. And I have this picture
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 2: and Kareem is bent down trying to hear and Mel
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: is looking up trying to talk to Kareem. It's a
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: hilarious picture. But did he convert? You know, Kareem is
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 2: still on a journey. I think he's still asking questions.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 2: I think he's doing what a smart person does, ask questions.
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 2: He was willing to come to my home and listen
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 2: to me. And I came to his place and we
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 2: talked for all afternoon about why I believe Christianity is true.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 2: And he told me why he believes Islam is true.
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 2: And we didn't debate, but we had a friendly conversation.
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: And that's good. That's healthy. And I believe he's still
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 2: on a journey.
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: Listen, with everything going on in the world right now,
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: this is the perfect time to take a step back
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: and give thanks for what matters most this holiday season. Family, freedom, opportunity,
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: and the ability to take control of your financial future.
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: And that's exactly why I want to tell you about
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: something big. For this month only, you can lock in
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: one of the strongest precious metal offers I've ever seen.
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: When you buy gold or silver through seanlikesgold.com, you'll get
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: up to 10% in free silver or gold on qualified
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: purchases from my partners over at Goldco. This bonus has
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: no limits, but it won't last long. Find out why
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: strategic investors are moving into precious metals. Call 855-936-GOLD or
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: visit seanlikesgold.com today. That's 855-936-GOLD or seanlikesgold.com today. What are
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: some of the major questions that somebody that's on the
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: fence of Islam or Christianity?
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: The guy that I was, it's not Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. I
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: don't know. I can't remember his name. He's basically a
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: book where he's talking about the Quran or the Bible.
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: It's sold a ton of copies. I can't remember. It
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: just popped up.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 2: Okay, gotcha.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: And I was like, this looks like an interesting interview.
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I had a good friend named Nabeel Qureshi. who
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: is a Muslim, who did what I did, researched Christianity,
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 2: became a Christian, wrote a wonderful book. If anybody wants
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 2: to really delve into what is the contrast between Islam
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 2: and Christianity, he wrote a book called Seeking Allah and
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 2: Finding Jesus. And he died a few years ago. I
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 2: was with Adam at his bedside just before he passed.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 2: A great, great man, young guy, medical doctor by profession.
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 2: But he did the research and converted from Christianity. One
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: of the things he told me, he said it was interesting.
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 2: He said, you know, Lee, there are 99 names for
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 2: God in Islam, for Allah, 99 names. Not one of
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 2: them is Father. And yet in the Bible, how is
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: Jesus taught to pray? Our Father, the Godhood. Yeah, it
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 2: is our Father who art in heaven. That summarizes things
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 2: more than any single fact I know, that the God
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 2: of the Allah is not the same as the God
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: of the Bible. He's never called Father in the Quran.
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 2: God is referred to Father in his picture and presented
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 2: as Father in the Bible. There's a big contrast there.
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 2: So, but yeah, so I'm no scholar on Islam, but
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 2: I have read the Quran. I have had many conversations
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 2: with Muslims. I love them. I know God loves them too. And,
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 2: but I, you know, these two things cannot be true
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 2: at the same time. They can't be. They are logically incompatible.
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 2: So you either have to believe that one of them
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 2: is true or neither of them are true. And that's
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 2: the quest that I think we're all on.
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. What was Jesus' communication with the Father? How was
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 1: he communicating differently than everybody else?
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he prayed. And, you know, he taught the disciples
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 2: how to pray, the Lord's Prayer, this beautiful prayer that
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: he taught. You know, when you pray, pray our Father.
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 2: And he used a very intimate word there. in the Aramaic, Abba,
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 2: which is a very, it's not just father, distant father.
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 2: It's a more intimate term for a dad. It's what
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 2: I would call my dad, Abba. And Jesus taught his followers,
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 2: he said, Abba, father. I mean, this rocked their world.
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 2: This is the Yahweh. This is the God whose name
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 2: you didn't even write because you're so fearful that you're
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 2: going to spell it wrong or something. And really? What
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 2: do you call him?
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: Abba?
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 2: But I mean, it just transformed everybody's thinking about God.
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 2: And yet you don't see that in other religions. You
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 2: don't see that in other faiths. That's a uniqueness of Christianity.
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: So the one thing that gets me that I find
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: myself thinking about quite a bit is, you know, Jesus is,
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 1: forgive my uses of words. I'll probably butcher this. Jesus
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 1: is an extension of God. It's one and the same thing.
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: But Jesus also lived on earth as human.
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: You know, supposedly human. Had all the same temptations, the
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: same suffering, more suffering. Basically, he ate the same shit
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 1: sandwich that we all eat going through life.
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 2: Worse than you and me, for sure.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: But he had to have had that direct connection. Yeah.
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: That we.
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: Either don't have or can't figure out how to access
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 1: a lot of times.
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 2: Well, some good points. Jesus is fully God and fully man.
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: So we have the Godhead, God the Father, God the Son,
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: God the Holy Spirit, who existed from eternity past in
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 2: this perfect love relationship. And so God the Son comes
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: into our world, becomes fully God and fully man, And
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: as you say, he lives among us. I mean, he
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 2: lived a harder life than you and I. And the
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 2: Bible says, interestingly, there's a verse, I believe it's in Hebrews,
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 2: that says that Jesus learned obedience through suffering. So he
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: had to even learn how to be obedient to the
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 2: Father through the suffering that he went through. I thought
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: that was interesting because we all go through suffering. And
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 2: yet we can learn from that how to be obedient
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 2: to God. So he's fully God, he's fully man. He
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 2: was tempted, and yet the Bible says, and yet without sin.
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 2: So he felt emotions as we feel them, but not
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 2: to the extent that he was ever sinful with those.
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 2: How that works out, I don't know. I'm going to
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 2: ask him someday in heaven.
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: Do you think about that, though?
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 2: I do sometimes, yeah.
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, if he has the.
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: This is probably really dumb of me to try to compare,
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 1: you know, what he was going through to what we're
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: going through. I know it doesn't make sense. I'll probably
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: get probably all kinds of comments. But, you know, but
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand.
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sure.
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 1: And so, you know, when he had, I mean, when
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: he was born, how did he know who his dad is?
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, his faith was so much stronger than any
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: of ours, than mine at least. Do you know what
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 1: I'm saying? So was it, yes, undeniable, much more suffering
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 1: than I'll hopefully ever have to, or any of us.
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: But his faith was so much stronger than mine, probably
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 1: than yours, than anybody else, that it's, I mean, he, yeah.
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: He knew it as fact. Yeah, he knew it as fact.
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: That's a good way to put it. Had the direct connect.
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 2: You know, there's a passage in Philippians, in the New Testament,
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 2: chapter 2, that may be the earliest Christmas carol. I
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 2: think it was. It may be a hymn of the
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 2: earliest church, but it talks about how Jesus was in heaven,
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 2: but he didn't cling to the perks of being in heaven.
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 2: And he gave that up to come into our world
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 2: And it says, even to the point of dying on
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 2: a cross. So Jesus pre-existed from eternity past. He is God.
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 2: How much did he know as a baby? How much
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 2: did he have to learn? When did he really realize
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 2: who he was? Somebody had to tell him, or he
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 2: had to direct connect. It is a good question.
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: Kind of what I'm getting at, Lee, is.
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 2: How do we connect that way?
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how do we... Okay, let me just.
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 2: Yes. If you....
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 1: We see all these Christians being slaughtered in Syria. Yeah. Right?
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: They're going off... Let's say you... I'm just going to
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 1: put you in a really messed up situation. do you
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: believe in Jesus Christ or do you not? And if
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: you do not, if you do not denounce him right now,
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 1: you are going to suffer. I mean, I think about
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: this all the time because it's happening. It's happening. It's
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 1: just not happening in this country.
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 1: You know, and so when you're looking down the barrel
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: of a rifle or a cross that you're going to
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 1: be crucified on or a blade that they're going to
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 1: chop your head off with if you don't, I mean,
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 1: that's a very, you know, you can sit here and go, wow.
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: Of course I'm not going to do it. It's a
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: lot different than being on your knees in front of
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 1: somebody that's going to chop your head off. So kind
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: of what I'm getting at is if that were to
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: happen to me or you, we are only going off
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: of faith. We do not know that as fact. Jesus
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: knew that as fact because he had some type of
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: a direct connection. So did he Was he going through
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 1: the same thing as us? Because he knows what's on
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 1: the other side of that. He knew what's on the
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: other side.
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 2: We don't really know. There's a lot of theories about this.
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 2: To what degree he knew what he knew when he
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 2: knew it. When he's five years old, did he understand
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 2: he was the savior of the world? Did he know
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: all the things he knew as God at five years old?
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 2: Could he speak every language on the planet at five
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 2: years old? I don't know. We're not told a lot
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: of this stuff. We do know he had a special...
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: as you say, a connection with God in the sense
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 2: that he was willing to go to the cross, not
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 2: because he had a pretty good idea that it was
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: all going to work out. He knew.
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 1: He knew the truth.
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 2: He knew because he is the truth. And he's described
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 2: in Scripture as being the truth, the way, and the life.
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 2: And no one comes to the Father except through him.
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: So he had that intimate understanding that he is God,
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 2: that the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God.
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 2: He knew that. And knowing that, he was willing to
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 2: die for it. We can't know it as certainly as
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 2: he did, but we can know it with confidence. And
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 2: here's why. Is there faith involved? Yes, of course. But
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: it is a faith that is a step in the
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 2: same direction the evidence is pointing. In other words, There
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: are about 20 lines of evidence through archaeology, through ancient history,
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 2: through fulfillment of prophecies, through all the reliability of the gospels,
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 2: through all these things. There are about 20 different lines
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 2: of evidence that point in the direction of Christianity being true.
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: They're arrows. They point that way. But it's not enough
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: just to know that. Because the Bible says in John 1, 12,
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 2: as many as received him, to them he gave the
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: right to become children of God, even to those who
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 2: believed in his name. So the formula is believe plus
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: receive equals become. So you can believe that all this
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 2: evidence points in the direction of Jesus being the unique
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 2: son of God who offers to forgive our sins and
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 2: spend eternity with us in heaven. You can believe that,
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: but even the demons believe that and they shudder at
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 2: the implications. You have to take a step of faith,
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 2: but it's in the same direction the evidence is pointing.
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 2: That's logical, that's rational. We do that every day of
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 2: our life. When we take that step of faith and
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 2: we receive that free gift of forgiveness and eternal life
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 2: through Jesus Christ, we become adopted as his son or
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: daughter forever. The Holy Spirit takes up residence inside of
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: us and will give us over time increasing confidence and
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 2: awareness of our relationship with God, which we then build
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 2: through reading the Word of God, reading the Bible, which
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 2: is what he wants us to know. So, you know,
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 2: we say, I wish God would talk to me. Here's 800,000 words. Yeah,
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 2: he's talked to us. Read that. So the Bible helps
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 2: us understand who God is. And then to pray. I mean,
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 2: you start out very haltingly, very, God, I hope you're there.
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 2: I hope you hear me. But as you grow and
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 2: mature in your faith, you begin to realize, no, God
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 2: is there. God is real. I've seen evidence of it
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 2: in my life. I've seen him do things in my
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 2: life that I cannot explain. naturalistically. And it gives me confidence.
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 2: And when I pray, he's listening. And it builds your
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 2: faith and encourages you. And it gets to the point
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 2: where even the disciples, they were willing to die for
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 2: their conviction that Jesus is the unique son of God
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 2: who proved it by returning from the dead. We don't
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 2: know how all the disciples ended up dying. That gets
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 2: a little lost in history, but their willingness to die
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 2: for that conviction is well-established by seven ancient sources inside
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 2: and outside the Bible. So they became convinced it was
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 2: true because they talked to the resurrected Jesus. They ate
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 2: with them. They experienced him. And knowing it was true,
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 2: they were willing to die for that conviction. Well, we
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 2: meet Jesus in a, not a physical way as they did,
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 2: but we meet him when we receive him as our
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 2: forgiver and as our leader. And the Holy Spirit takes
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 2: up residence in us. We begin a relationship with him.
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 2: We listen to him through his word. We speak to
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 2: him through our prayer. We watch his interactions with us,
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 2: things he does in our life that we can't explain away.
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 2: And it makes us stronger in our faith so that
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 2: we grow to that point where it someday, maybe in
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 2: this country someday, we will be persecuted for our faith.
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 2: And then that's a test. Will we stand up for
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 2: what we believe and know is true? I hope so.
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 2: But I've seen things in my life. I, I can't
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 2: explain them other than God was interacting with me. And
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 2: that gives me confidence. I'll give you an example. I'm
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 2: a pretty new Christian. I'd left behind my whole career
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 2: that I'd spent my life building. Legal editor of the
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 2: Chicago Tribune, you know, degree in law, degree in journalism.
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 2: It's all I had done, all I ever wanted to do.
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 2: And then I felt God saying, you know what? Give
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 2: it up. Go join a staff of this church. Take
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 2: a 60% pay cut. and live for me full time. Okay,
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 2: so we did. So Leslie and I are living a
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 2: very frugal life on the staff of this church. And
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 2: one day I'm praying and this happens as you mature
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: in your prayer life. Sometimes you sense God leading you.
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 2: Sometimes you sense him pointing you in a direction and
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 2: you always have to test it against the Bible. Is
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 2: it consistent? Is it true? Maybe he's pointing me toward
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 2: a verse in the Bible, but I'm praying. And I
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 2: never felt this, but I felt like, and I know
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 2: this sounds crazy. We only had $ 500 to our name.
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 2: We had one bank account, 500 bucks. And I felt
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 2: like God was saying to me, Lee, I want you
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: to empty your bank account and write an anonymous cashier's
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 2: check and send it to this woman who's part of
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 2: the church on Friday afternoon. Make sure, Pace Post Office,
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 2: Friday afternoon. Send it to her. Time out here. That's
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 2: all I got. I said to Leslie, Leslie, would you
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 2: pray with me about this? Because I'm sensing this and
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 2: I'm not kind of happy about where it's taking me.
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 2: But if this is from God, we need to do it.
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 2: So Leslie and I pray together. She said, honey, I'm
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 2: feeling the same thing.
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 2: So we go to the bank. We get all of
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 2: our money. We get an anonymous cashier's check. And Friday afternoon,
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 2: We go to the post office and we mail it
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 2: to that woman. Monday morning, before mail delivery that day,
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 2: the phone rings. This woman calls me. She said, Lee,
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 2: she's crying. I said, what? What's wrong, Maggie? Oh, something
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 2: terrible's happened. Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down. What happened? She said,
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 2: my car broke down over the weekend. If I don't
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 2: have my car, I'm gonna lose my job. I'm gonna
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 2: lose my apartment. I don't have any money. She said,
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 2: it's gonna cost $ 500 to fix my car. I don't
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 2: have $ 500. I don't know what to do. Would you
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 2: please pray for me? I said, oh, Maggie, I'd be
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 2: glad to pray for you. So I prayed that God
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 2: would provide her that $ 500. We hung up. Because I
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 2: had mailed it that Friday afternoon, Monday afternoon, the mail comes.
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 2: She opens the mail and there's this anonymous check to
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 2: cover the cost of her car. Now, God could have
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 2: intervened so her car didn't break down, but then we
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 2: wouldn't know the joy of being the answer to someone's prayers.
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 2: That built my faith. Was it a miracle? I don't
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 2: know if it was or not. I'm just saying it
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 2: built my faith that God Could have done that, but no,
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 2: then you wouldn't know the joy and how wonderful it felt.
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 2: To this day, she doesn't know. Well, now if she
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 2: listens to your podcast, she's going to know. But she
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 2: doesn't know it was us. Doesn't matter that it was us.
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 2: What matters is God loves her. And she was a
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 2: new believer. She had a terrible childhood. She had given
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 2: up on Christianity. But we did a debate at our
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 2: church between a Christian and an atheist. She came to
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 2: the debate. She came to faith in Christ because of
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 2: that debate and later teachings that she received. And she
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 2: later quit her job as a nurse, took a big
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 2: pay cut, joined the staff of our church. And she
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 2: was the one who would deliver my mail every day
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 2: in the church at the staff office. And to this day,
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 2: she doesn't know that God led us to help her out.
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 2: But that's how God works. Did that deepen my faith?
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 2: Did that increase my confidence that God really is listening
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 2: and orchestrating things and knows things that I don't know?
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 2: And wants me to do things that I may not get,
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 2: but he's got a plan? Yeah. So will we get
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 2: to the absolute knowledge that Jesus had? No. But I
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 2: think we can get to a strong, vibrant, robust faith
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 2: that causes us, even in the midst of persecution and
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 2: even in the midst of pain, to continue to live
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 2: for him. And you're seeing that. throughout places where people,
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 2: as you say, are being beheaded for their faith today,
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 2: and they refuse to renounce it because God is real
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 2: and Jesus is real.
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 1: I love what you're saying, man. I've had a lot
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 1: of these encounters too. I mean, that's how I came to,
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean? When we very first spoke,
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 1: and I was wrong, Christmas last year isn't the first
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 1: time we met. I think this is the fourth time
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 1: you've been on.
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 2: Third time.
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 1: This is the third time? Yeah, yeah. Okay, what was
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: the first time?
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 2: First time, and then John Burke and I did that one.
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah. At some point in one of those interviews,
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 1: I believe I had talked to you about, you know,
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 1: do you really believe? Do you ever have those thoughts
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: in your head? Do you really believe, or are you
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 1: just telling yourself this stuff? And I'm just being 100%
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 1: honest with me, you know, it– It's highs and lows, man.
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 1: It looks like this.
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 1: I'm not really in the word.
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm really in the word.
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 1: You're not alone. I'm not really in it. That's right.
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 1: You know, faith's going down. Do I really believe in
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 1: this stuff? Is this real? I don't know. And then
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 1: something will happen. But what I really, I mean, when
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 1: you talk about, I just haven't figured out how to
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 1: talk to him. Yeah. And I don't trust what I'm hearing.
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 1: I trust in affirmations maybe is what I'm. But I
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 1: have a thought in my head right now. I should
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 1: sell the studio, everything that I've built here, and donate
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 1: it all to cancer. Is that from him or am
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 1: I just coming up with?
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And this is so important. And you haven't been
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 2: a Christian that long. So you're on a pathway. We
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 2: come to faith and then we grow. And so justification
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 2: is the theological word. When we receive Jesus, we're, quote, unquote,
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 2: born again. He adopts us into his family. We're indwelled
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 2: by the Holy Spirit. And then there's a period of
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 2: sanctification where we grow in our faith. And it's two
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 2: steps forward and one step back a lot of times.
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 2: But I've been a Christian now since 3 o'clock in
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 2: the afternoon on November the 8th of 1981. So I
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 2: got a few years on you. So it's not unusual
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 2: to have those ups and downs by any means. But
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 2: we have to, the Bible says, test the spirits. Test
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 2: the spirits. How do we do that? We test things
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 2: when we feel like God, like when I felt like
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 2: God was telling me to leave my entire career, everything
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 2: I studied for and dreamt about and I was succeeding,
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 2: to leave that behind and Join a church at 60%
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 2: pay cut? And people are telling me, you're nuts. You
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 2: can't put your kids through college. You're not making enough
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 2: money to live on. What are you, nuts? What did
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: I look for? I looked for A, I prayed and say, God,
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 2: if I'm misunderstanding, then tell me. but put signs about it,
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 2: communicate to me because I'm about to make a big
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 2: step here, you know? And so I asked God to
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 2: head me off if I'm reading things wrong. Importantly, I
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 2: had strong Christians in my life. My best friend, Mark
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 2: Middleburg and others who know me better than anybody. He
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 2: knows every sin in my life. He knows every good
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 2: thing in my life. Mark and I were joined at
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 2: the brain And I love him like a brother. And
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 2: the Bible says that. So they're believers. We're going to
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 2: love like a brother. And I love Mark like a brother.
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 2: And I know everything about him. And he knows everything
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 2: about me. And we're totally honest with each other. And
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 2: we pray for each other. We encourage each other. I say,
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 2: I believe in you, Mark, more than you believe in yourself.
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 2: And he said, Lee, same thing with you. I believe
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 2: in you, even though you doubt yourself half the time.
• 1:57:12
  Speaker 2: So we've got this great relationship. And when I sense God...
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 2: taken me down a path. And I wonder if it's right,
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 2: if it's true. First thing I want to see is read,
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 2: let's check the Bible. Is this contrary to the word
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 2: of God? Is he telling me to do something that's
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 2: clearly not biblical? Secondly, what are my committed Christian friends saying?
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 2: I ask them to pray. Pray and see what God
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 2: says to you. Do you get a consistent message that
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 2: I'm getting? And so I take a lot of, that's
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 2: why I think it's really important for Christians to have
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 2: a small group relationship with a couple of other guys.
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 2: People of the same gender, people you can go deep with,
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 2: people you can hang out and be honest with. And
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 2: when things like this come up, whatever it is, I'm doubting,
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 2: I have a question about this or whatever, say, hey guys,
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know what to do with this. I'm sensing
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 2: God is telling me to do this. What do you think? Well,
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 2: sounds a little crazy to us. Here's why I don't
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 2: think it stacks up the scripture. Or here's why I'm
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 2: not sensing the same thing. I mean, there's these yellow
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 2: flags that go up. I've had that happen many times
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 2: when I'm thinking God wants me to do X, Y,
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 2: and Z. I remember once I had, as a fairly
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 2: young Christian, I was offered a national radio show. I
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 2: would have had to have left my ministry at the church.
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 2: And I thought, there's a great opportunity, national show, my goodness.
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 2: And I did the audition. Yes, want to hire you.
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 2: And I went to my friends and they prayed and said,
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 2: I don't think that's what God wants you to do. Honestly, don't.
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 2: It's a great opportunity for somebody. I don't think it's
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 2: for you. And they were right. Looking back would have
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 2: been the worst thing I could have done. But I
• 1:58:58
  Speaker 2: didn't know. but I thought it, I was tempted by it.
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 2: So those are the kind of checks and balances I
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 2: think we need to have. And it takes time. I
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 2: had a small group of guys and we get together
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 2: on Saturday morning and we just scratched the surface. Hey,
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 2: how about the bears? We're in Chicago. Yeah, bears, great.
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 2: How about the cubbies? Oh man, they traded. Oh, that
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 2: was bad. And we talk, you know, and we go
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 2: around the room and say what's new in our life.
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 2: And we were just scratching the surface until one day,
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 2: We're going around the room talking about prayer requests. Yeah,
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 2: pray for this, pray for that. And the guy next
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 2: to me breaks into tears. And he says, my marriage
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 2: is breaking up. I think my wife and I are
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 2: going to split. I don't know what to do. I
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 2: don't know where to go. Guys, I'm desperate. And he
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 2: began to cry. That was the breakthrough that our group needed.
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 2: We never scratched the surface again because what did we do?
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 2: We got around our brother and put our arms around
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 2: him and we prayed for him and we counseled him
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 2: and we encouraged him and we walked him through that
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 2: difficult time in his marriage and it came out strong
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 2: and he's fine today. But because he was willing among
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 2: brothers or sisters, among brothers in Christ, to be honest
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 2: about suffering that he was going through and doubts that
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 2: he was having about faith and so forth, to go
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 2: deep and get around it. So we need that in
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 2: our life. My wife's got it. She's got a friend
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 2: who led her to the Lord all those years ago, 1980s,
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 2: and is still a good friend and still a good
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 2: guide and counsel. And when I was an atheist and
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 2: my wife was a Christian and our marriage was on
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 2: the rocks as a result, her friend counseled her and
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 2: encouraged her and prayed with her and kept her positive
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 2: and That's what kept our marriage together. So I think
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 2: we go to the word of God. We deal with
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 2: people in our life who are strong believers. We pray
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 2: with them. We test the spirits as best we can
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 2: to determine, is this where God's leading us? And that's
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 2: how I think we get direction. And as you say,
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 2: it's like this a lot of times. I mean, I
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 2: can think of times in my life where my faith was,
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 2: oh my gosh, it's on the rocks. And I have
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 2: to keep coming back. For me, because I tend to
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 2: be a rational guy, I need to come back to
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 2: the evidence. Oh, yeah. I remember now. We got nine
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 2: historical sources right there from the earliest days that the
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 2: disciples encountered the resurrected Jesus who proved he's the Son
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 2: of God. Oh, yeah.
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 2: That's right. I forgot. Yep. I got the evidence. This
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 2: is true. Sometimes I need that just as a rational guy. But,
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 2: you know, we all go through those periods. So I
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 2: would say to anybody watching, you know, if you're a believer,
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 2: delve into scripture, continue to soak that in. That is
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 2: the word of God. Why doesn't God talk to me?
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 2: He is. He is. There it is. And then develop
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 2: that one or two friends who you can really trust,
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 2: who love you as much as you love them, and
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 2: who are deep in the word, and who can be
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 2: a sounding board. That's so important.
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Lee.
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 1: That's good. Last question. Yeah. You ready? Uh-oh.
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Can I take a drink of water?
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 2: Do I need to hydrate?
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 1: Who is the real Santa Claus?
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's a great question.
• 2:02:35
  Speaker 1: Uh-oh.
• 2:02:38
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad you asked that. And the reason is,
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 2: I get so many emails from parents of young children saying,
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 2: what do I tell my kids about Santa Claus? I mean,
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 2: and my answer is, you can... encourage her. Let's play
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 2: with it. It's okay to have fun with the idea
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 2: of Santa Claus, to present him as a story, as
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 2: a legend, as an idea, you know, not real, but
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 2: fun to think about and so forth. But then tell
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 2: them about the real Santa Claus. The real Santa Claus
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 2: was a guy named Nicholas, Saint Nick. He was born
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 2: in 270 AD, and he was born in Myra, Turkey,
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 2: And he became a Christian. He came from a wealthy family.
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 2: And he became a bishop of an area on the
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 2: coast of Turkey. And he was the most generous guy.
• 2:03:32
  Speaker 2: Not only generous, but he was sensitive to, if I'm
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 2: going to give you some money because you need it,
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 2: I don't want to do it in a way to
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 2: embarrass you. So he would often leave gifts on people's
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 2: doorstep so they'd find it in the morning or in
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 2: a bush near their house or something because he didn't
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 2: want to embarrass them. He was a man of love
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 2: and truth. His love was shown by his great generosity,
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 2: but he was a man of truth. He was imprisoned
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 2: by the Romans and tortured for his faith. In the
• 2:04:05
  Speaker 2: year 325 AD, he was a member of the Council
• 2:04:09
  Speaker 2: of Nicaea, where he fought the heretic Arius. who had
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 2: heretical ideas and were trying to convince people of heretical ideas.
• 2:04:18
  Speaker 2: There's a legend that Nicholas actually slapped Arius across the face.
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 2: That's probably not true. But he stood up for truth.
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 2: He was a man of truth. And when he died
• 2:04:31
  Speaker 2: and was martyred for his faith, I think it was
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 2: on December the 19th, a tradition began of gift giving
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 2: because he was such a gift giver. That's what he loved.
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 2: He gave away all his wealth. He was such a
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 2: gift giver and people in remembrance of this St. Nicholas
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 2: would give people gifts. Martin Luther was the one who said,
• 2:04:53
  Speaker 2: let's not emphasize a saint. Let's move that gift giving
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 2: impulse to Christmas. It's only just a few days later,
• 2:04:59
  Speaker 2: December 25th. And that's why we give gifts on Christmas
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 2: day is because of St. Nicholas and his gift giving
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 2: and how Martin Luther kind of moved that to Christmas day.
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 2: just six days later. But here's a story about St. Nicholas,
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 2: the real Santa Claus. Now, granted, this comes from a
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 2: biography of St. Nicholas. It was written 500 years after
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 2: his life. So how accurate it really is, we don't
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 2: really know. But the story goes that back in those days,
• 2:05:30
  Speaker 2: if you were a father and you had three daughters,
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 2: as this one guy did, you would have to have
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 2: a dowry to pay the family of someone to marry
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 2: your daughter. If you didn't have the money, the dowry,
• 2:05:42
  Speaker 2: they couldn't get married. And if they couldn't get married,
• 2:05:45
  Speaker 2: they'd probably end up in prostitution. So in Nicholas's community
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 2: was a man. He lost his job. He didn't have
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 2: any money. And he had three daughters. He didn't have
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 2: the dowry. One of them wanted to get married. He
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 2: didn't have the dowry. One day, St. Nicholas comes down
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 2: the street. They lived on a second floor. He took
• 2:06:04
  Speaker 2: a little bag of gold coins and threw it up
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 2: into their window. They find it. That's the dowry. She
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 2: gets married. She has his grandchildren for him. Everything's great.
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 2: The second one comes time for her to get married.
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 2: Don't have a dowry either. St. Nicholas comes by again
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 2: with a bag of coins and he tosses them up.
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 2: She gets the money for the dowry. She gets married.
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 2: The third one gets old enough to get married. St.
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 2: Nicholas comes by. Well, now the father's wondering what in
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 2: the world's going on, right? So he stakes things out.
• 2:06:39
  Speaker 2: He's watching. He's outside. He's like, what is going on?
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 2: And he catches Nicholas. He said, what are you doing?
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 2: And Nicholas throws the coins up and he says, this
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 2: is just between us. Don't tell anybody. Well, that story
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 2: made its way into Nicholas's biography. And what's interesting is
• 2:07:01
  Speaker 2: in medieval times, medieval painters painted pictures of stockings hanging
• 2:07:07
  Speaker 2: on the chimney. And the idea was that maybe those
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 2: three girls had stockings drying on the chimney in their room,
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 2: and the coins came up into the stockings. And that's
• 2:07:21
  Speaker 2: today why we put gifts in stockings for our children. Now,
• 2:07:27
  Speaker 2: Santa Claus himself... later developed mainly in the Netherlands, fanciful
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 2: story based on St. Nicholas, but it got all jazzed
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 2: up and so forth. And it was carried over into
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 2: the American colonies in the 1700s. They call them Sinterklaas
• 2:07:43
  Speaker 2: in Dutch. But the most interesting thing about that is
• 2:07:48
  Speaker 2: the picture we see today of Santa Claus with the
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 2: white beard, with the red suit, with the hat, with
• 2:07:55
  Speaker 2: the glasses and everything. You know where that comes from?
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 2: In the 1930s, Coca-Cola Company did a big print campaign
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 2: in magazines with color drawings of Santa Claus that looked
• 2:08:07
  Speaker 2: that way. And so it's because of Coca-Cola Company that
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 2: today this is how we picture Santa Claus.
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 1: No kidding.
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's right.
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 2: So you can take a swig of Coke and thank
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 2: them that that's where we got the picture of Santa
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 2: Claus today.
• 2:08:22
  Speaker 1: Wow. Isn't that weird? That's a good story.
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 2:08:27
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Well, Lee, another great interview, man.
• 2:08:32
  Speaker 2: Well, Merry Christmas to you and your family. And I
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 2: really mean that. I pray that God is doing amazing
• 2:08:38
  Speaker 2: things through you and through this amazing opportunity he's given
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 2: you to influence people all around the planet. And my
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 2: prayer for you and for the folks who work with
• 2:08:51
  Speaker 2: you here is that God is going to use you
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 2: in 2026 and beyond in ways that you'll only understand
• 2:08:59
  Speaker 2: in heaven. I told you about having dinner last night
• 2:09:03
  Speaker 2: in Paducah, Kentucky. And I was signing some books and
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 2: a woman came up to me in tears with her husband.
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 2: And she said, I just have to tell you, I
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 2: listened to an interview that Sean Ryan did on his
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 2: podcast with you and John Burke. And in tears, she said,
• 2:09:19
  Speaker 2: that was when I came to faith in Jesus Christ.
• 2:09:22
  Speaker 2: And I said, I'm going to see Sean tomorrow. And
• 2:09:25
  Speaker 2: she said, oh, would you please tell him? Would you
• 2:09:27
  Speaker 2: please tell him? He changed my life. That podcast changed
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 2: my life. My prayer is that will be multiplied countless
• 2:09:39
  Speaker 2: times in 2026 and beyond.
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 1: I hope that too. I'll pray for that too. Awesome.
• 2:09:46
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Lee. My pleasure.
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 2: Merry Christmas, brother.
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 1: You too.
• 2:09:50
  Speaker 2: God bless. God bless.
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 1: No matter where you're watching Sean Ryan Show from, if
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 1: you get anything out of this, please like, comment, subscribe,
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 1: and most importantly, share this everywhere you possibly can. And
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 1: if you're feeling extra generous, please leave us a review
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 1: on Apple and Spotify podcasts.