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Second to One: Forgotten Legends of the Indy 500 · BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show

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  Brake Fix's History of Motorsports series is brought to you in part
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  by the International Motor Racing Research Center, as well as the
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  Society of Automotive Historians, the Watkins Glen Area Chamber of
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  Commerce, and the Argettsinger family.
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  Second to One by Joe Freeman Joseph Freeman is an automotive
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  historian, writer, publisher, vintage racer, and racing car collector.
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  Well known in the racing world for his expertise on automotive subjects, and as
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  an owner of the award winning publishing house Racemaker Press of Boston, his
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  talk will cover the history of some of the earlier champion race drivers
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  who, but for a stroke of bad luck, an unfortunate last minute mistake, or just
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  the intervention of fate, were never able to win America's greatest race.
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  The Indianapolis 500.
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  Mr.
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  Freeman's reflections are based on his recent book, Second
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  to One, All but for Indy.
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  Alright, our next topic, presentation, Second to None, by Joe Freeman.
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  Hello everyone, good afternoon.
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  I always enjoy coming back to Watkins None for a couple of reasons.
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  At least two of them are.
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  One, I won my first Formula Ford race here against 25 or 28 other
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  guys, which was pretty exciting.
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  It was also the first Formula Ford race that was held on the new long track.
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  So I was pretty pleased about that.
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  Went home smiling, thinking, of course, I was going to be a Grand
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  Prix champion, which I was not.
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  The second was, uh, When I came, uh, for a, uh, IMSA race that they had for Formula
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  Fords, I had my first comprehensive wreck.
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  Uh, I got the red mist and drove over the guy in front of me, uh, who was holding
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  me up and, uh, ended up in the guardrail and, uh, came out with a very bent car.
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  And, uh, luckily not too many injuries, but.
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  And a bash to sense of competition.
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  The red mist does work.
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  The talk I'm giving today is based on a book, which you'll see back there.
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  You can look through.
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  It's called Second to One.
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  It's an idea that I had several years ago about knowing that there were so many
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  really interesting drivers who had taken second in Indianapolis and then were
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  champions and whatnot and never got any recognition and nobody knew about them.
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  Or at least if they knew about them they didn't think So I felt, let's
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  do a book on that, and it really came out, I think, quite well.
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  In this case, I've changed the name because I've chosen three of
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  these drivers who were really major contributors to American racing.
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  And so it's second to none, because these guys really were In some ways, not just
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  second to one, but second to none in the sense of their contribution to American
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  Racing and to the Indianapolis 500.
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  The first is a man by the name of Earl Cooper.
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  I'm not sure if this name is familiar to you, a lot, a lot of you.
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  He was a As you can see, a three time national champion, 1913, 1915, 1916.
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  And that era literally went from everything from racing on open roads
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  through, uh, parts of California where he, he, uh, and other, uh, road races,
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  uh, on the west coast, uh, in Tacoma and whatnot, through the first major board
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  tracks, one of which was in Chicago.
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  Another of which was, uh, in Sheepshead Bay, New York.
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  And I hope all of you are familiar with the fact that there was an era
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  in which all the major championship racing was done on high banked
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  board tracks, board speedways.
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  If not, come see me later.
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  Earl was, uh, Second in India in 1924, but he was also a constructor and an entrant.
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  This photo is of when he first joined Stutts.
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  Harry Stutts was a tough guy to work for, but Earl really did, he knew how to do it.
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  He had started out in Maxwell, but he really, he was a superb racer.
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  And as a result, he won, I think it was something like 23
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  national championship races.
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  And he teamed up with a mechanic by the name of Reeves Dutton.
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  And the two of them were practically unbeatable.
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  This is driving in big, open, studs, Bearcats, basically.
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  A mixture of your sports and racing car.
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  Again, in all over the country.
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  He was a remarkable driver.
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  He was not a big man, and yet he would do these literally
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  300 mile and 400 mile races.
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  I don't know how he did it, but he was really good at it.
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  And Reeves Dutton could take apart and put back anything, anytime,
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  and was a huge help to him.
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  So as a team, that's one of the reasons why they won three national championships.
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  I, by the way, I have to preface that with a little asterisk by
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  saying that in 1913 and 1915, there was no national championship.
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  It was only later on that the AAA established a national
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  tram tip in 1916, first.
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  As a result, it was magazines of the day, the Motor, Motor, Motor Age,
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  Horseless Age, that declared someone was a champion, and they declared
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  Earl Cooper as, as being a champion.
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  Under any circumstances, he really was a major driver at his time.
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  In 1919, having won all those championships and having been a
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  really superb and well known sports figure, I mean a Honus Wagner or
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  a Kai Cobb in some ways in his own day, uh, he decided to retire.
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  Kind of fun shot I put in.
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  He's, this is taken in Tacoma, Washington.
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  That's a big Stutz touring car.
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  He's going fishing and he's going to relax for life.
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  But then, uh, In 1921, a guy by the name of Joe Thomas who was driving
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  for Dusenberg, was riding a horse, fell off the horse, broke his leg,
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  and Cooper was there and they said, well, why don't you drive his car?
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  Not only did he drive the car on the Fresno board track,
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  he won the race, by the way.
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  It's the only time he ever drove Eisenberg.
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  But the fact was he was able to literally, after three years of.
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  Total time off, beat the best, I mean, Jimmy Murphy and, uh, uh, well, Jimmy
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  Murphy wasn't really in full blast at that time, but Tommy Milton and a whole
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  series of other really great drivers.
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  So, uh, that's, by the way, a fellow by the name of Alan Nielsen.
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  Beside him, one of the Duesenberg mechanics who accompanied him on that win.
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  Here he is.
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  In his, it's labeled a big Studebaker, but it's not, as I think most
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  of you will know, it's a Miller.
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  It's a Miller 122, not a 91.
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  And you can see at the bottom of there, those are the updraft
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  carburetors underneath the frame.
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  It was, uh, prior to the time that they had supercharging for these Millers.
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  Uh, this was very much the same as the car that won the race, which
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  was Tommy Milton's Miller that looked almost exactly the same.
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  But, uh, Earl was pretty good at selling sponsorships, so he got, uh,
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  initially a sponsor, uh, Studebaker and then, uh, eventually, uh, a
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  Studebaker dealer in San Francisco to sponsor him, uh, called Weaver.
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  But he continued racing.
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  And, uh, continued winning races, uh, major races, 250 milers, generally on
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  these board tracks, that's what they ran.
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  And at the same time, he could drive almost anything that you put him in.
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  This is one of, uh, Miller's early front drive cars, that
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  initially were developed in 1924.
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  And, by the way, the car that nearly beat him in, in, in, or nearly won the race
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  in, in 1924 was a front drive Miller.
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  These were incredible machines.
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  They had some weaknesses, but overall they were really fast.
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  He put this on the pole in Indianapolis that year as it happens, but he also
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  wrecked it, but not in the race.
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  He didn't finish the race.
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  The gearbox broke as they did quite regularly on, on the Miller front drives.
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  That was a weakness, but then he did decide to retire again and when he
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  retired, but he didn't retire altogether.
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  He made a deal with Dutton.
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  He and Dutton got some money from Buick, which is why there's this odd
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  radiator shell there, and they built their own front drive that they thought
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  was maybe better than the the Millers.
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  The Cooper front drives, I think they built three or possibly four of them.
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  This is one of them that entered the 500.
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  This is another one.
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  It's a little hard to see.
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  Earl behind there, but he is there along with Reeves Dutton.
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  They didn't finish the race, but what was important about these is he
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  was one of the very few People who actually decided to build and enter
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  cars at Indianapolis, as well as be a driver after you'd finished driving.
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  They were successful enough so that these chassis continued on.
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  I think that there's still, well, I know there's still at least one around,
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  and I think they continued racing at Indianapolis after the Second World War.
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  They were modified in all sorts of different ways.
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  But the Coopers were just known.
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  You can see his engine configuration was a little different.
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  He was a straight eight.
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  Double overhead camshaft, engine, exhaust system, and trying to get
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  the car as low as possible was one of the things that he was attempting
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  to do with this particular design.
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  After he finished with that project, why, uh, became a car dealer for Marmon.
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  At the same time, kept his, uh, involvement with racing
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  throughout his career.
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  He worked for the Union Oil Company and developed a number
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  of different products for them.
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  He was also, by the way, one of the earliest people to use ethyl lead
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  for, uh, his engines in the 500.
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  He and Tommy Milton were there.
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  And he stuck around Indianapolis.
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  Here he is in his latter years with Pete DiPaolo.
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  Remained an official until his death.
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  What's, uh Again, extremely well known American sports figure who
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  was, uh, very much appreciated.
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  Earl the Pearl, they called him.
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  Also, the California Comet.
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  He had a lot of different names, but a really quick guy.
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  The next person I've chosen is Harry Hartz.
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  Harry Hartz was a really interesting fellow.
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  So his rundown was a national champion in 1926.
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  He won seven major board track championship wins.
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  Second in India three times 1922.
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  23, 26.
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  IndyCar entrant from 1930 to 1940 and winds as an owner in 1930.
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  In 1932 at Indianapolis.
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  So no small hitter.
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  He started out nice portrait of him, the Chevrolet, as a reference to his
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  time when he was being a mechanic for Billy Durant's son, cliff Durant, who
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  was promoting Chevrolets at the time.
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  And they were racing together.
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  So he, that's why he has that.
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  Chevrolet badge on, but he started out as a kid racing these small
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  race cars that were basically motorcycle engined creatures.
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  There were actually quite a few of them.
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  A few have survived, and they had races on board tracks the same
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  way, and also on road courses.
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  I think they raced in Santa Monica, etc.
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  And he got his first name.
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  through those and he called himself the junior racing champion of the world.
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  Maybe he was, I'm not sure.
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  I don't know how many kids were doing that at the time, but as he grew older,
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  he associated himself with various folks, including a very well known
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  driver by the name of Eddie Hearn.
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  Hearn, uh, had one of the 1915 championship winning Stutz's,
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  remarkable cars, believe it or not.
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  They built four, two are still in existence.
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  One in the United States, in Los Angeles, in the Los Angeles County
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  Museum, and the other in New Zealand.
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  They were hugely successful.
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  Harry Stutz used them as a promotion, but then, when they won the 1915 championship,
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  he said, I'm done with racing.
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  I don't want it anymore.
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  And he sold his cars, and at least Some of them, maybe all of them went to Cooper,
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  but eventually ended up in the hands of Cliff Durant, who was racing them.
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  And this is Harry working on the engine.
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  By the way, you can see it's a single overhead cam engine with
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  the exposed valves and whatnot.
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  But in the day, they were light, fast, and could win on road courses, on board
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  tracks, uh, and, uh, on sand, just about anywhere they wanted to race.
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  This is a picture of his first win at, uh, Indianapolis.
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  Sorry, it's not a The best quality of picture that I have.
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  It's a Duesenberg.
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  It was a Duesenberg that actually is, we believe, if it's correct, yes.
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  This is the actual car that is still in existence.
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  It's in Fred Simeon's collection.
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  I'm sorry, it's not that car.
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  But it's one of the three cars that were taken to France in
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  the 1921 French Grand Prix.
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  Jenny Murphy won with his, driven by Joe Boyer, another driver.
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  It was brought back, Harry Hartz bought it, and that's it.
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  That car is still in existence, and, and, and very, very original.
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  It's amazing that it survived all the years through its racing.
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  It raced in California, it raced in the East, but they tried it in
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  Indianapolis later on, didn't work.
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  Fred Simeon's father bought it from a family by the name of
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  Bergert, who owned it at the time.
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  Kept it.
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  I had to convince Fred that he had one of the most important
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  racing cars in the United States.
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  He, he wanted to stay, keep it the way it was.
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  It had been for 1930, but when I sent him a lengthy article I'd written about it,
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  he, he called me up and said, Joe, I had no idea you knew that much about this car.
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  I'm going to restore this and restore it as a real racing Nusenberg.
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  So if you go to Philadelphia and you, and you look at that.
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  Car is there.
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  It's, it's one of Fred's really remarkable machines.
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  He continued, by the way, with that, uh, car he raced in 22 was a full
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  deusenberg with a Deusenberg engine.
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  But by 1923, uh, Jimmy Murphy had, uh, bought a Miller double over Red Kim
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  engine, which seemed to work better than the single of red Kim Berg's.
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  Uh, the 180 3 cars that were, uh, 183 Cub cubic inch cars.
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  And as a result, Murphy bought a.
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  A Miller and put it in in his Deusenberg chassis and called it the Miller Special.
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  He won the Indianapolis 500 with it.
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  Seeing that, uh, Hart's not to be left behind, got his own Miller engine and
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  put a Miller nose on the Duesenberg and this is him on a board track racing that
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  in the latter part of 1922 and in 1923.
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  By the time, uh, that, uh, Indianapolis rolled around in 1923, the Millers had
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  become basically almost ubiquitous, sponsored by the first real big, you
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  might say, uh, swatch of them, I think four or five, were built with money
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  from, again, if you can see the side there, his sponsor, Cliff Durant.
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  Cliff Durant actually is an unknown figure in, in a lot of American racing.
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  He was the son of Billy Durant who founded General Motors.
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  His money Paid basically for a lot of innovation, including the, for
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  example, the front drives that really transformed American championship racing,
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  particularly during this board track era.
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  Finally, the third, uh, second place was, uh, in, uh, 1926.
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  That's the year that Frank Lockhart won in the rain, but you can
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  imagine here's, uh, Harry again.
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  I gotta say, he must have been enormously frustrated by the fact
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  that he'd taken second three times, coming within inches of, of winning
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  the big race, but never did.
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  He continued his career until 1927.
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  He got one of the front drives, uh, and made a national
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  championship in that year in 1926.
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  He also set several close course world records, including one at a board
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  track speedway in Amatol, New Jersey.
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  It was a, uh, track named after a, uh, an emissions factory that was built there.
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  He set a world record for a 300 mile distance.
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  I've forgotten what it was, but these were, uh, 1, 500cc engines, and I,
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  and I believe it was the average for the race was over 130 miles an hour.
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  If you can imagine that.
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  Double armored camshaft, small pistons.
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  Uh, Gordon White here had brought along one of the little 91 pistons.
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  It's amazing to see.
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  But these cars were, uh, incredibly fast for their size.
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  By the way, they were also all supercharged, uh, at the time.
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  Uh, and, uh, that technology had, uh, been, uh, pretty well developed.
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  And they'd also improved on lubricants and fuels along with tires.
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  There, there were a lot of board track innovations that came
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  along as, uh, racing matured.
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  Competition between first Louis Chevrolet, the Duesenberg brothers, Fred and
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  Augie, of course, Harry Miller, who, uh, who Gordon will talk about later.
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  He then, Harry had a really serious accident in New Hampshire at the
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  board track there, nearly killed him.
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  He was very badly injured, but it was burned, you know, broke ribs, broke arms.
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  Whatnot, and basically, I think, probably damaged his brain enough
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  so he was never able to race again.
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  But he stuck around, and, lo and behold, he started to enter
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  his own cars at Indianapolis.
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  And this is one of them, I believe it's the car from
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  1932, which was, um, a winner.
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  That huge trophy, by the way, if you don't recognize it, is one of the
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  crown jewels of the collection of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Museum.
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  It was made by Tiffany.
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  It's called the Wheeler Shiebler Trophy.
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  And it's given to the car that's leading at 400 miles.
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  Well, it's, it's an amazing trophy.
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  I've seen it in person.
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  They had it at the Museum of Fine Arts of Boston for a Tiffany exhibit.
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  It's just incredible.
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  If you get there, again, they don't put it on display.
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  I don't quite understand why.
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  Here we have, again, some of the old timers from left to right.
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  Babe Stapp, who was a regular racer at the time, but had retired by this time.
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  Earl Cooper, uh, this is an Indianapolis, of course.
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  Tommy Milton, who was the chief steward at that time.
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  You can see, uh, On his AAA car, and Harry Hart's to the right.
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  These guys were, they were the old timers around Indianapolis,
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  but they were very well respected.
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  They were all, uh, served as various, uh, shall we say officials, and, uh,
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  sort of advisors to Rickenbacker, and then after the track was sold to the
• 17:47
  people who owned it after Rickenbacker.
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  Here's another group of, uh, interesting people.
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  Left to right, again, Peter DiPaolo, who was, of course, a winner several times.
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  Eddie Hearn, behind him, who'd been a mechanic for.
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  And the infamous Mike Boyle, in the middle.
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  Umbrella Mike, if you haven't read that story or know that, again,
• 18:07
  come around and ask me about it.
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  He was quite a character.
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  And Harry Hartz.
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  So, they were, again, hanging around Indianapolis at the
• 18:14
  time, getting ready for the 500.
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  Again, this is the sort of final picture of Harry.
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  He was, uh, basically got very old.
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  I think he died.
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  This was taken in 1971.
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  He died in 74.
• 18:26
  But again, sadly, an unknown figure, a man who really contributed to
• 18:30
  the race in a lot of different ways and drove a lot of different cars.
• 18:34
  He, uh, he drove cars on the salt.
• 18:36
  He drove cars, uh, he drove a car backwards across the
• 18:39
  United States and set a record.
• 18:40
  So it's quite an interesting character.
• 18:43
  All these guys work.
• 18:45
  I'm picking these because they're kind of fun and interesting.
• 18:48
  Finally, we got Lou Moore.
• 18:49
  Lou was not as much of a standout racer, although he certainly did well.
• 18:54
  He started in very competitive racing in California at, um, A track called Ascott.
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  Uh, not the Ascot, you know, nowadays, but it was a very, very popular
• 19:04
  track during the, the thirties.
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  Very competitive, whole number of major drivers came outta there, including,
• 19:11
  uh, say Rex Mays and, uh, oh gosh, the names would go on and on, who were
• 19:16
  racing at, and who developed their skills at, at Ascott, which was not by
• 19:20
  way, it was a, it was a packed dirt.
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  race track.
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  I think about, I want to say it was a little longer than a half mile.
• 19:27
  I think it was a maybe about three quarters of a mile.
• 19:30
  I can see he was second in India in 1928, but kept racing during the so
• 19:34
  called junk formula era when Indy cars had gone back to riding mechanics and
• 19:40
  supposedly to get manufacturers involved.
• 19:43
  At the same time, he finished third in 1933 and 1934.
• 19:49
  Then he himself turned to be an indie entrant.
• 19:52
  There's a good shot of him as a driver and one early shot of him.
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  This is the number 28 car, is the one he took second in.
• 20:01
  A copy of that car called the Majestic Miller, bright green by the way.
• 20:05
  Green was not allowed in Annapolis for a long time.
• 20:08
  They thought it was a hoodoo, but it was green anyway.
• 20:11
  In this particular case, that was, it was before it was the Majestic
• 20:14
  Miller, it was that next year.
• 20:16
  Uh, here he is in one of the two man cars again.
• 20:19
  There's Mike Boyle's name coming up, and I think this is one of
• 20:22
  the cars he finished third in.
• 20:24
  But he himself felt he should retire.
• 20:26
  He wasn't doing well enough.
• 20:28
  And so as a result, he himself Turned to being an entrant.
• 20:31
  He, uh, encouraged a car builder by the name of Curly Wetteroth to build a very,
• 20:36
  uh, by the way, by this time in 1937, or 38, had returned to one man chassis.
• 20:44
  And in 1939, Lou Moore entered this, uh, Wetteroth chassis with,
• 20:49
  I believe that's Floyd Davis.
• 20:51
  And, uh, Floyd, uh, won the race for him.
• 20:53
  First race he's won on an entrant.
• 20:55
  Then, Floyd was killed in the next, uh, Indy 500.
• 20:59
  Sadly, the next year, 1941, I believe, he hired Murray Rose, who was an up
• 21:07
  and coming young driver at the time, and Rose, along with another driver,
• 21:11
  took his car, again, that Wetteroth, and won the India a second time.
• 21:16
  So, he was a two time winner by that time.
• 21:19
  Of course, took time off during the war, but then, following the war, It
• 21:23
  was sort of a mixture in 1946 of cars that had just been sampled together,
• 21:27
  but Lou Moore said, no, I want to build something really original.
• 21:31
  And so he embarked on building these very radical front drive
• 21:36
  cars made by a man named Amel Deet.
• 21:39
  They were very successful.
• 21:40
  They had a low sense of gravity.
• 21:43
  As a result, Murray Rose was able to dominate the Indianapolis 500
• 21:47
  for two years running in 1947 and 1948, winning the race there.
• 21:52
  So.
• 21:53
  Two more wins for, for Lou.
• 21:54
  Finally, uh, Rose's partner, Bill Holland was not too pleased, particularly in the
• 22:00
  second time around about being beaten by, by Rose, but Rose broke in 49.
• 22:06
  And as a result, Holland, uh, won his race.
• 22:09
  So Lou Moore was truly a magnificent and interesting character in not only
• 22:14
  in terms of the innovation he brought to the track, but, but also the success.
• 22:18
  for the Indy 500.
• 22:20
  Here's the final entry that he had, the final entry that actually made the
• 22:23
  race, in 1952 with, again, one of his front drive cars, Tony Bettenhausen,
• 22:28
  who drove for him for three years.
• 22:30
  By that time, the cars were out of, uh, competition, they weren't competitive.
• 22:35
  In any case, all of this information I've gone through come out of
• 22:39
  the book that I've done here.
• 22:40
  Second to one.
• 22:41
  It was an idea that occurred to me, as I say, I, because I
• 22:44
  felt it was really important.
• 22:45
  There are about 40 drivers in here who were, and their names in there,
• 22:49
  like, again, like these folks, but Rex Mays, and, of course, probably
• 22:54
  the most famous would be Michael Andretti, who wrote the Ford before us.
• 22:58
  It was incredible how many times he came close to winning the race and didn't.
• 23:02
  The, the, the Andretti curse really covered his, his career.
• 23:06
  So, that's about it.
• 23:08
  Other than to say that, uh, I'm delighted to be here, I'm delighted to take us
• 23:12
  back to some of the history of American racing when it was really successful
• 23:16
  in major sport in the United States.
• 23:18
  Sadly, now where I bet I could ask people in the room how many people would know
• 23:23
  who the national champion was, who won the national championship this year.
• 23:26
  Can anybody tell me who won the national championship this year?
• 23:30
  Nobody?
• 23:31
  Who won the national championship of American racing, of IndyCar racing?
• 23:34
  Yeah, that shows how, unfortunately, sadly, American racing, particularly open
• 23:40
  wheel racing, but all American racing, has been just, the television ratings
• 23:46
  are zero, the interest is going away, even for NASCAR, as well as others.
• 23:51
  So, that's a whole other topic, but, but I thank you, and uh, I hope you've
• 23:55
  enjoyed my Kind of race through a couple of, uh, three, three guys who are really
• 23:59
  kind of interesting early drivers.
• 24:09
  Thank you, Joe.
• 24:10
  Thank you.
• 24:11
  We'll see if you have any questions.
• 24:13
  For any of you who don't know, Joe has become a publisher and he's
• 24:18
  published, uh, one of my books as well as, as a number of other, what
• 24:23
  I think are important racing books.
• 24:26
  Just a question on Louis Chevrolet.
• 24:28
  His little history on He's racing at Indy.
• 24:32
  Louie, I'm trying to remember how many times he raced at Indy, and I don't recall
• 24:37
  right off hand, but he initially came to the United States, actually to Canada as
• 24:42
  a chauffeur, then was hired in New York.
• 24:45
  The first major race he did was on the Maynardville Cup, and I want to say
• 24:48
  As I say, I think it was 1904, 1905 was his first race on Long Island.
• 24:54
  He drove a car for a guy, a big fiat, had a wreck, nearly killed himself.
• 25:01
  He continued racing on and off, but primarily he wanted to build his own
• 25:05
  car, and he went to Billy Durant and said, I want to build a Chevrolet.
• 25:09
  Well, Billy Durant said, fine.
• 25:12
  What Chevrolet had in mind, what Louis Chevrolet had in mind, was a quality car.
• 25:16
  What Billy Durant had in mind was something to compete with a Model T Ford.
• 25:20
  Durant won.
• 25:21
  I came out, uh, basically turning a car that was called the Little at the
• 25:25
  time into the first two Chevrolets, the Royal Mail, and I I tend to
• 25:29
  forget the name of the second.
• 25:31
  And so, Louis was totally desistive.
• 25:35
  He had built his own racing cars called Frontenacs that competed with the
• 25:41
  Duesenbergs and eventually Harry Miller's.
• 25:43
  Then, subsequently, he and, well, one of his brothers, he had three
• 25:47
  brothers who came to the States.
• 25:49
  One was killed, sadly, in 1920 at a race in Los Angeles.
• 25:54
  Uh, on one of the board tracks.
• 25:56
  Uh, then, um, he and his other brother started a company called
• 26:00
  Frontenac, and they made spade equipment for Model T Fords.
• 26:04
  Uh, hot up systems to, uh, improve the, uh, the, the engine, but, you know,
• 26:09
  uh, primarily to, uh, heighten its fuel consumption, but then eventually
• 26:13
  went to overhead valve systems.
• 26:15
  The first one called single stick, and the second one then called a DO.
• 26:20
  Those are very rare.
• 26:21
  I think they only built about three or four of them, but they were
• 26:23
  very successful well into the 30s.
• 26:26
  So he had a full career in racing and around racing, but as a driver he,
• 26:31
  again, he competed at Indianapolis, but I'm sorry, I can't remember exactly
• 26:36
  which years and what cars he drove.
• 26:38
  I should know, but I'm a little blank on that.
• 26:41
  I'll look it up.
• 26:42
  By the way, one Just tool that some of you might want to learn to use,
• 26:46
  which I've found hugely valuable.
• 26:48
  It's called champcarstats.
• 26:49
  com.
• 26:49
  www.
• 26:52
  champcarstats.
• 26:53
  com If you go on there, it's got all the drivers, a lot of the car
• 26:58
  makes, all the races for different years, and extremely full statistics.
• 27:05
  So if you need to hunt up something, you can do it very quickly on that site.
• 27:10
  There are a few mistakes here and there, but believe me, for a
• 27:14
  person who's researching racing or wanting to know about drivers or in
• 27:18
  their careers, that's where to go.
• 27:20
  It's a, it's a really useful site.
• 27:22
  I'm glad we have it.
• 27:23
  Any other questions?
• 27:24
  Who was the driver that won that race?
• 27:27
  That won the The one you were talking about, the big race.
• 27:31
  Indy 500?
• 27:32
  Yeah, the one that you were talking about.
• 27:34
  Oh, the IndyCar?
• 27:36
  Oh, yes, it was willpower.
• 27:39
  Driving for Roger Penske.
• 27:42
  You're quite welcome.
• 27:44
  Sorry, I should have said that.
• 27:47
  Again, the year before, very few people would remember.
• 27:50
  We're not anywhere near where we should be.
• 27:52
  But thanks again, I appreciate it.
• 27:56
  I always enjoy coming here.
• 28:01
  Thank you, Joe.
• 28:01
  Thank you.
• 28:04
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