Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / The After Dark Bandits: The Morgan Twins [Part One] | Peter Morgan

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The After Dark Bandits: The Morgan Twins [Part One] | Peter Morgan · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Appoche production.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Adam Shand. Early in this season, I interviewed Doug Morgan,
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: one half of the legendary After Dark Bandits team the
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: terrorized country banks and tabs in Victoria for two years
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: in the late nineteen seventies. Authorities are stumped as the
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: same man appears to be in two places at once.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: He plundered banks and tabs, terrifying staff and customers.
• 0:38
  Speaker 4: Out smarting police for years, becoming Australia's most wanted men.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: I had a dream of interviewing Doug with his brother
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Peter Morgan. The thing about the Morgans is they're identical
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: twin brothers. Until Peter was captured, police believed there was
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: just one Bandit involved, only to discover that the twins
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: were alternating as the lead stick up man in many
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: of their twenty seven armed holdups.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: Four year later, all was revealed the police had been
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: out fox by not one bandits, but two.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: I wanted to get both Morgans in the same studio,
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: but that didn't happen because Peter and Doug have not
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: seen eye to eye for many years.
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: It was a partnership that confounded police for two years. Now,
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: the men who pulled it off can barely stand to
• 1:26
  Speaker 4: be in the same room. Accusations of betrayal have defined
• 1:30
  Speaker 4: the decades since.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Each brother has issues against the other. Peter says that
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Doug robbed him, and Doug says that Peter gave him
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: up to police. Both claims are true, but there's been
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: fifty years of enmity between them, which is a shame
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: because they are more in common than they like to admit.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: After months of conversation, I recently managed to get Peter
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: into the chair and it was a revealing and insightful
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: conversation that lasted all afternoon. So this is a double episode,
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: the first covering the twins upbringing, growing up with their dad,
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: a builder who was also a part time bank robber,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: the after dark bandit spree, and the beginning of the
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: end when Peter shot a police officer during a bank
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: hold up. Enjoy Peter Morgan, Welcome to real crime with
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Adam Shand it's a pleasure. I never thought i'd get
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: to say those words. This has been six nine months
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: in the making.
• 2:32
  Speaker 5: It's all okay, We're not getting into a long rave
• 2:34
  Speaker 5: about it. Something I read a book years and years
• 2:36
  Speaker 5: ago called the Reluctant Messiah. So I don't placed myself
• 2:40
  Speaker 5: as a messiah, but sometimes I'm the reluctant participant.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Well, and you should be because you know why. And
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: this is something I said to Douglas before our inad
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: of you, I said, I'm not here to do what
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: every other journalist has done with you two ever since
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: you began to talk about it is to talk up
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: the conflicts, because unfortunately you were stuck together in this story,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: and unfortunately most of the journeys seem to want to
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: talk up the fire, and I'm really pleased. My aim,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: of course, was exactly this is to talk to you
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: both and see if there isn't some way of bridging
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: the gap between you and I'm happy to note that
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: you've been talking to Douglas recently. I think if cats
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: and dogs can get on next, my job will be complete.
• 3:24
  Speaker 5: Well. I suggested today that the offer is still on
• 3:28
  Speaker 5: the table that if you can find a venue, I'm
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: quite happy to put up five grand on a grades
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: boxing match and give the proceeds to charity.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: But he didn't take the offer up. Yeah, I don't
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: we go to the boxing route.
• 3:41
  Speaker 5: No, it's good and as an attached person, things I
• 3:47
  Speaker 5: do now are discussed with my partner, and I said
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: to her this morning that my intent with my brother
• 3:54
  Speaker 5: is to be his brother to my brother on a
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: social level, but I'm not sure that I have any
• 3:59
  Speaker 5: interest in what he's pursuing well, because it's all comes
• 4:03
  Speaker 5: down to.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: What you want to get out of life, or where
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: you are in life, or I've.
• 4:09
  Speaker 5: Got a business situation I want to start, So you
• 4:12
  Speaker 5: have to look at how these things gel. But I'm
• 4:16
  Speaker 5: number one fan and I always have been for probably
• 4:19
  Speaker 5: a decade that my brother is not so much a
• 4:22
  Speaker 5: talented artist, but he's got his niche in what he does.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: You know, it's rather unique to be a bank robber and.
• 4:30
  Speaker 5: Paint ned Kelly, and I would love to assist him
• 4:35
  Speaker 5: in selling his paintings.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Good. This is great, So you know that's not a
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: problem to me.
• 4:40
  Speaker 5: But our philosophies on what happened are totally different, always
• 4:45
  Speaker 5: will be, and they evolve. What I think today is,
• 4:49
  Speaker 5: you know, like in a real world, one hopes that
• 4:52
  Speaker 5: we're all better tomorrow than we were today, so things change.
• 4:57
  Speaker 5: If you can benefit each other without destroying too many
• 5:01
  Speaker 5: of your own morals or ethics, then.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: That's a fair call.
• 5:05
  Speaker 5: But I totally agree, and that my mum's funeral, my
• 5:09
  Speaker 5: brother did a one of the weirdest eulogies.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: I've ever heard in my life.
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: But when one of my sons got up and he
• 5:17
  Speaker 5: put it in really good perspective, he actually said that
• 5:21
  Speaker 5: his grandmother only wanted the family to be a family. Again, yep,
• 5:28
  Speaker 5: and that's that's a fair call, right. You don't have
• 5:31
  Speaker 5: to both well, for example, on a simplistic level, you
• 5:34
  Speaker 5: don't have to barrack for the same team, or if
• 5:37
  Speaker 5: one in a different world, if one twin was playing
• 5:41
  Speaker 5: for the other team, he still get twin brother. Or
• 5:45
  Speaker 5: in simple terms like I barrack for Collingwood, any barracks
• 5:47
  Speaker 5: for Rescident and I got love on it. So we
• 5:51
  Speaker 5: don't all have to barrack for the same team. We
• 5:53
  Speaker 5: don't all have to have the same ideologies in life
• 5:57
  Speaker 5: or even the same motives in life.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Well, it's it, And I think we're twins.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: They're always seen as twins, and my dad was a twin,
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: and their mother dress them up in the same clothes
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: at the same school and all that sorts of stuff,
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: you know, I think, and in the end, all they
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: wanted to be was individuals, and that's what I wanted
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: for these interviews. And it's taken a while to get
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: you here. I'm really pleased that you have come down.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that because I want to engage with each
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: of you on your own terms and your own story.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: And the after Dark banditree is how long ago is
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: an now it's coming up half a century ago.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: A long time ago, well.
• 6:31
  Speaker 5: It's nine in seventy seven, so it's forty nine years.
• 6:35
  Speaker 5: Sometimes when I'm in a social environment, whether it's a
• 6:39
  Speaker 5: party or whatever I might do, and you know that
• 6:42
  Speaker 5: people are looking at you and judging you or what
• 6:44
  Speaker 5: you did, I remind them that that was because they
• 6:47
  Speaker 5: were born.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: So We've had lots of conversations, and I hope I
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: can do justice to some of the insights I've got
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: about you. And I have to start, though, with your
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: relationship with your father, Kay, who was a complex man.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: We were talking on the way in the car about
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: the fact that he was your hero, but he was
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: also a bad influence as well, and ultimately he left
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: you suddenly with a lot of things unresolved at the
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: age of forty one with a heart attack.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: Tell us about your dad.
• 7:18
  Speaker 5: Well, a lot of my dad's history was unknown to
• 7:22
  Speaker 5: me till after he died. But my knowledge of him
• 7:26
  Speaker 5: before he died was that even as a young guy,
• 7:30
  Speaker 5: I was aware that he was good in the building trade,
• 7:34
  Speaker 5: not understanding obviously the finances of building and things like that,
• 7:37
  Speaker 5: but I even probably by ten or eleven, realized that
• 7:40
  Speaker 5: sometimes we were rich and he can build good houses,
• 7:44
  Speaker 5: and sometimes we're poor, and at the age of ten
• 7:47
  Speaker 5: or eleven you don't actually understand the dynamics behind that,
• 7:51
  Speaker 5: or whether he can't do his sons, or what the
• 7:54
  Speaker 5: case may be. But so he was always in a
• 7:57
  Speaker 5: good place with me. He was more also, apart from
• 8:00
  Speaker 5: being a bloke, very knowledgeable ways for his age, I guess,
• 8:05
  Speaker 5: but he was also a sports coach. So if we
• 8:09
  Speaker 5: were doing something, he would become part of that. Like,
• 8:13
  Speaker 5: for example, we were involved in the Church of England
• 8:16
  Speaker 5: Boys Club which was in those days Gann of Seaford
• 8:18
  Speaker 5: in early sixties, which in those days are called sebs,
• 8:22
  Speaker 5: and it was sort of like boy scouts. So my
• 8:24
  Speaker 5: dad would always become involved in those things, and so
• 8:29
  Speaker 5: he became the basketball coach for the Sebs club. We
• 8:32
  Speaker 5: would playing at Albert Park at the big old stadium
• 8:35
  Speaker 5: that's now gone on Friday night. He was the coach
• 8:39
  Speaker 5: to coach the two teams or whatever it was that
• 8:42
  Speaker 5: we ran for about two or three years. So I
• 8:44
  Speaker 5: started playing basketball at the age of eight, I think,
• 8:47
  Speaker 5: and like, yeah, he was my coach. And whilst he's
• 8:50
  Speaker 5: a very hard task master to the point where Doug
• 8:54
  Speaker 5: was probably the best scorer in the team and I
• 8:56
  Speaker 5: was the best reguard and went on later to be
• 8:59
  Speaker 5: pretty good at that, but he was very was harder
• 9:02
  Speaker 5: on us than anyone else in the team, no matter
• 9:05
  Speaker 5: what sport we're talking about. And for example in basketball,
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: when we were at say ten, he gave us nicknames.
• 9:14
  Speaker 5: So you got eight guys in the squad, and Douglas
• 9:18
  Speaker 5: is no longer Douglas, he's nin and Peter's no longer
• 9:22
  Speaker 5: Peter is non so ninga nong. If they didn't be
• 9:27
  Speaker 5: the best goal shooter, all the best guard they got
• 9:31
  Speaker 5: reminded of their name was he was hard. It was
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: hard love and from a man's point of view, his
• 9:39
  Speaker 5: generation grew up after the war, they were tough men
• 9:43
  Speaker 5: like no matter how how respectable as a father and
• 9:48
  Speaker 5: a husband. He was a hard man like I used
• 9:52
  Speaker 5: to joke about my grandfather, who was in the same
• 9:54
  Speaker 5: sort of mold. And I used to say about my
• 9:56
  Speaker 5: grandfather when my grandfather eventually dies, he'll walk around a
• 9:59
  Speaker 5: week before he falls over.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: And my dad was like that.
• 10:03
  Speaker 5: He cut three fingers, basically got on a Friday morning
• 10:07
  Speaker 5: on a building site, and they basically were cut, so
• 10:12
  Speaker 5: there was only skin holding the three fingers on. And
• 10:16
  Speaker 5: he had to drive himself from Mount Martha to Mornington
• 10:21
  Speaker 5: to the hospital. Two tough guy apprentice gets in the
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: passenger seat with him, and the apprentice is underage to drive,
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: but my old man says to him, if I go unconscious,
• 10:33
  Speaker 5: grab the wheel. So at eighty or ninety miles an
• 10:35
  Speaker 5: hour around the windy roads back to Mornington, that's what
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: he did. I remember that our mum coming got us,
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: and we were at the hospital and they were about
• 10:45
  Speaker 5: to operate on it. Weill putting stitch his fingers back together,
• 10:47
  Speaker 5: or whatever they're going to do. And I'm down the
• 10:50
  Speaker 5: end of a corridor which was probably thirty meters long,
• 10:53
  Speaker 5: and all I can hear is you're not putting me
• 10:55
  Speaker 5: out to that you'll take my fingers. So they gave
• 10:57
  Speaker 5: him a local and they stitched them back up. So
• 11:00
  Speaker 5: that's Friday lunchtime. By Friday five o'clock he's collecting the
• 11:05
  Speaker 5: the basketball team where his hand repaired, and he's basketball
• 11:09
  Speaker 5: coach because that's what you do.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: And so this was the image of masculinity that you
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: grew up with, probably, and someone who did his best
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: in the building trade. And as you say, it was
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: feast and famine, and in those days of famine. You
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: discovered later he's robbing a few banks. He had a
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: bit of dash. That's none of it about that, because
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: as you learned much later, Douglas told you the story
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: of how he'd robbed the bank at Eltham in the
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: late forties or something else and used a Browning handgun
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: and he'd gone in there and line and behold the
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: manager and the assistant manager both had guns, full on shootout.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: He's rubbing, they're putting chairpers after him in the vehicle.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's hard to know.
• 11:52
  Speaker 5: How do you assist that somebody does a bank robbery
• 11:55
  Speaker 5: and has a gunfight, whether that's brave, whether that's stupid,
• 11:59
  Speaker 5: whether he's got balls. It's like, I'm not sure where
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: you put it, but like from a o Key point
• 12:05
  Speaker 5: of view, you go, yeah, he's got some kannakers. But
• 12:08
  Speaker 5: I saw my father at different times get injured on
• 12:10
  Speaker 5: the building site. Like I spoken about how he wouldn't
• 12:15
  Speaker 5: let them put him out to fixing his fingers, which
• 12:18
  Speaker 5: in all fairness should have just come off. Now the
• 12:22
  Speaker 5: sequel to that, and I'm not wanting to be known
• 12:25
  Speaker 5: as a pansy, but probably mid seventies he hurts himself
• 12:31
  Speaker 5: in say sixty four with the fingers, and in the
• 12:34
  Speaker 5: mid seventies I hurt myself on the building site in Dromana.
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: Was taken to the Mornington Hospital and I was in
• 12:42
  Speaker 5: a bad way. I was caught up on the back
• 12:44
  Speaker 5: of a stump hole digger and it basically wound me
• 12:47
  Speaker 5: around the tail shaft until it stalled luckily. Like there's
• 12:51
  Speaker 5: blood everywhere, you can't really see the difference between torn
• 12:56
  Speaker 5: clothes and body. It's just blood everywhere anyway. So I'm
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: in one of the little rooms or where I was,
• 13:03
  Speaker 5: I can't remember it now. You know, they're process seeing
• 13:05
  Speaker 5: me to then fix me, and this old nurse goes,
• 13:09
  Speaker 5: are you Kay Morgan's son, and I went yeah, and
• 13:13
  Speaker 5: she says it was not going to have the same
• 13:15
  Speaker 5: trouble I had with him, am I And I went, no,
• 13:17
  Speaker 5: just just help me. So I do claim to be
• 13:23
  Speaker 5: one of the last tough guys. But yeah, they were,
• 13:26
  Speaker 5: you know they were. I saw him got knocked out
• 13:29
  Speaker 5: on a building side by mistake and he just got
• 13:31
  Speaker 5: up and kept working once he came gain consciousness.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: So in these periods where there was some challenges, you
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: and your teens and you and Douglas helped him out
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: on a few the fairies activities.
• 13:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah, is that true. I think there's a bit of
• 13:50
  Speaker 5: poetic license going on there. But in New zeal And
• 13:54
  Speaker 5: when he was and it was course through gambling. Basically
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: he was very successfully running a well we could now
• 14:02
  Speaker 5: call a subcontract gang, so labour only gang with a
• 14:04
  Speaker 5: few guys and it's all going well and he's making
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: big money and we've got trucks and cars and every
• 14:11
  Speaker 5: we want. Anyway, he had a very bad Christmas at
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: the races. The plan was apparently over the Christmas break
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: he was going to go basically to a different racetrack
• 14:19
  Speaker 5: every day, so that was our holiday. So it was
• 14:22
  Speaker 5: a tour of the North Island, but stopping every day
• 14:24
  Speaker 5: at the races. Well he lost everything in say two weeks,
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: so I had to sell up all his equipment.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Basically at the end of the Christmas. I don't really.
• 14:34
  Speaker 5: Remember why, but we moved from Wellington to Auckland, and
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: then I really didn't know at the beginning, and he
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: wasn't living with us, but he was still there, but
• 14:44
  Speaker 5: he wasn't actually living with us full time. What panned
• 14:47
  Speaker 5: out eventually was that on a Sunday we'd go for
• 14:52
  Speaker 5: a drive or a Saturday or whenever, and we'd be
• 14:55
  Speaker 5: just as kids in the backsuit. And then he pull
• 14:58
  Speaker 5: up at stores like general stores or in like hardwarees
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: that in those days they'd be multi purpose sort of
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: shops where one needed to be the hardware and the
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: other end to be gift shops and electrical shops and
• 15:10
  Speaker 5: all that. I was looking in the window at one
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: of these and he goes, what do you like? Then
• 15:15
  Speaker 5: it become apparent that he breaks into these places as
• 15:19
  Speaker 5: an active rebellion more than anything, because obviously there's a
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: shock factor in there somewhere. But apparently, as thirteen year
• 15:28
  Speaker 5: old boys went, well, we're not sitting at home, and
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: he's probably already done twenty of these places I want
• 15:35
  Speaker 5: to sit in at home, worrying whether Dad's going to
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: get arrested or shot or whatever might happen to villains.
• 15:42
  Speaker 5: So apparently we demanded to go, and we sat in
• 15:48
  Speaker 5: the car while he actually broke into place, and he
• 15:50
  Speaker 5: was very methodically. What he did the time that I
• 15:53
  Speaker 5: remember was he actually set the arms off, so he's
• 15:56
  Speaker 5: run back to the car, and basically we jumped in
• 15:59
  Speaker 5: the car. So in effect, I guess we were sort
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: of his alibi, because who's going to be looking for
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: a car full of mums and dads and kids? Yes, right,
• 16:10
  Speaker 5: So maybe we were being used a bit. Really, at
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: a thirtain year old, you don't know what dynamics are
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: going on. To say that we were there and involved
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: on a regular basis is very long streets of the imagination.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: But I think you did.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Mention that you and Douglas wrote a bit of a
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: commission on these No no.
• 16:31
  Speaker 5: No, no no, I'm talking about later years later, when
• 16:34
  Speaker 5: we were working as carpenters with.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Oh I see, okay, yeah, so you didn't even get.
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: Any money out of it, no, Well, and paid accomplice exactly,
• 16:43
  Speaker 5: or alibis or whatever. When he got arrested. He was
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: wise enough to have well I didn't know at the time,
• 16:49
  Speaker 5: but he had another house. That's why he didn't live
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: with us all the time, so he might have He
• 16:53
  Speaker 5: was sort of like a like a casual dad, and
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: so he'd stay where we were a few nights of work.
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: But he had another place, which was his work depot.
• 17:02
  Speaker 5: And that's what he was doing, was he was basically
• 17:04
  Speaker 5: getting into these places and wheeling their saves out on
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: a trolley on a hand trolley, putting it and throwing
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: it in the boot, taking it home and dismantling in
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: his spirit in the privacy of the house.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: Your dad was a hero to you. He was a
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: dashing character, charismetic character. He knew had to turn a
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: dollar when he didn't follow the law.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: But then at forty one he dies suddenly of a
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: heart attack. Do you remember that day?
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Oh? Certainly.
• 17:33
  Speaker 5: The funny thing is that even in the good times,
• 17:36
  Speaker 5: we were heavily involved in horses and things like that,
• 17:39
  Speaker 5: and we had greyhounds at the time. For example, just
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: to throw it in my first gradhound round second in
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: Noback Cup, which I'm very proud of. So he died
• 17:48
  Speaker 5: on Sunday, and we're supposed to go to work on Sunday,
• 17:50
  Speaker 5: which to be rare, but the reason we worked on
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: Sundays is we were always at the racetrack on a Saturday.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: So Doug and I are up and we're just turned outing.
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: We've got our own cars, so we're waiting to have
• 18:02
  Speaker 5: breakfast and all all go off to work. Apparently my
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: dad's wasn't well, but we're ready, we're dressed and breakfast
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: and we're ready to go. And he told our mum
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: to contact the doctor. So I don't think we had
• 18:19
  Speaker 5: a phone because it was a rental property. But anyway,
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: so somehow a doctor has been called and they're one
• 18:26
  Speaker 5: of those sort of local doctors that they come to
• 18:28
  Speaker 5: your house. And apparently it wasn't treated as being urgent.
• 18:33
  Speaker 5: So anyway, while we're waiting for the doctor, Douglas and
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: I are actually out in the back yard basically just
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: leaning again because we're wading here old kids, but we're
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: leaning against the swings and slides that are in the backyard,
• 18:45
  Speaker 5: going oh, friggin ow, what a friggin bloodger. He's pulled
• 18:50
  Speaker 5: the old I'm sick trick. Well anyway, then their mum's
• 18:53
  Speaker 5: running out and gone quick, quick, quick, and we're running
• 18:57
  Speaker 5: and he's dying. And I saw at the end of
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: the bed sort of just like a stunned mullet. And
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: by the time I got in there and standing into
• 19:05
  Speaker 5: the bed, I watched him die and he was probably
• 19:08
  Speaker 5: already dead. He was doing what I call it death
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: suck and yeah, I just still do. And watched my
• 19:13
  Speaker 5: dad turn colors and die. And Douglas ran over to
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: a church in the street, and I think a doctor
• 19:22
  Speaker 5: and a nurse come over, but by the time they
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: got there, he was dead.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: So he dies at forty one.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: You boys are eighteen, yep, the next ten years a
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: lot changes in your lives effectively become the after Dark bandits.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: I wonder, knowing what you know about your dad, what
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: would he have said about what happened after that?
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: Well, he actually I do remember that he said something
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: to the effected view every breathe to Laura Chillier or
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: break your air call some relevant dad thing that would
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: be said. So it was.
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: He never encouraged it, but his mantra was, it's been
• 20:01
  Speaker 5: quoted to me recently in simple terms, the means justify
• 20:06
  Speaker 5: the ends. So we're Morgan's and if you run under money,
• 20:09
  Speaker 5: go and get some. But there was no instructions with that,
• 20:14
  Speaker 5: so I'm basically, whatever it takes to run the family,
• 20:17
  Speaker 5: you do it.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Do your best. In other words, whatever you have to
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: do to get through. So tell me how did this evolve? Then?
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, how did this decision for you evolve to
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: do what you did well?
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: The seventies was an interesting period of time in Victoria
• 20:33
  Speaker 5: or in Melbourne, Australia, I guess, And nearly every second day,
• 20:38
  Speaker 5: or once or twice a week, whatever, you know, you'd
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: be sitting on a building sode, reading the paper or
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: listening to the radio lunchtime and there's been a big
• 20:46
  Speaker 5: arm robbery, like a gang of five guys has running
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: into a bank and got two hundred and forty three
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: thousand dollars or something like that.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: And I remember that there was a case.
• 20:55
  Speaker 5: It must have been nearly Christmas time and it was
• 20:57
  Speaker 5: a bank in Lower Heidelberg or one of those suburbs
• 21:02
  Speaker 5: anywhere I know the place, I just can't think where
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: it is. Five armed bandits ran into a bank dressed
• 21:09
  Speaker 5: to Santa Claus and robbed the bank and they were
• 21:12
  Speaker 5: getting away like there was never any arrests. So we were,
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: you know, I guess, sitting on the building side having lunch,
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: talking crap. I'm not sure even who started the conversation,
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: but it was we could do that, you know. It
• 21:26
  Speaker 5: might have been a rainy day where you're pissed off
• 21:28
  Speaker 5: we're being a carpenter. And what evolved from there and
• 21:32
  Speaker 5: I remember finally enough we're working over at Craigieburn and
• 21:37
  Speaker 5: I'm not sure if it's still there, but there was.
• 21:39
  Speaker 5: There's a mint part of the mints over at craigi Burn.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: There is no printing Australia.
• 21:43
  Speaker 5: And we were building houses beside it. So it was
• 21:46
  Speaker 5: sort of this like thing become conscious that well we
• 21:50
  Speaker 5: do that, and that just sort of got kicked around
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: for a while, and for about three months we actually
• 21:59
  Speaker 5: planned a bank at Murnder time to get away, worked
• 22:04
  Speaker 5: out where where the getaway car was going to be planted,
• 22:07
  Speaker 5: and so we just swap into a neutral car stop
• 22:11
  Speaker 5: watched perfect. The bank buildings still there, but it's a
• 22:14
  Speaker 5: different brand bank now. So that was rehearsed and the
• 22:18
  Speaker 5: plan quite simply was that we're going to drive around
• 22:20
  Speaker 5: the back of Whittlesee to the Dian Reservoir. Cut open
• 22:24
  Speaker 5: the gates that are in the back of the reservoir
• 22:27
  Speaker 5: used by the water people that deal with the Onion Reservoir.
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: Cut the chain, put a new lock on it, take
• 22:35
  Speaker 5: the car in there, close the gate, hide up pine trees,
• 22:39
  Speaker 5: then walk across the Adina Reservoir area to the actual
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: other side of the lake and get into your civilian
• 22:46
  Speaker 5: car and drive home or wherever. So that was plane
• 22:51
  Speaker 5: on and off for months because we worked building houses
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: in that area. Then that fell by the wayside, I
• 23:00
  Speaker 5: really don't know. And then on the day before Easter
• 23:05
  Speaker 5: in seventy seven was probably the wettest Thursday before Easter
• 23:09
  Speaker 5: since then to now. It was really pissing down, and
• 23:13
  Speaker 5: we used to do things when it rained.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: It was nearly a tradition.
• 23:16
  Speaker 5: We'd gone by a car, you know, like that's upgrade,
• 23:19
  Speaker 5: one of the cars whose car went upgrade. So anyway,
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: then it was nearly a tradition when we did that
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: stuff that if you didn't drop a wheli out of
• 23:26
  Speaker 5: the car, you do a week prick. So anyway, this
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: day I've decided we're going to do a job. I
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: knew the area really well because we lived a door
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: room which is near Murnder and we don't seeing all
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: art used to run around there as teenagers. Young teenagers.
• 23:43
  Speaker 5: So anyway, I decided that I needed a car get
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: away car, needed a gun and know I had a gun.
• 23:48
  Speaker 5: Had what was actually I bought it legally looks like
• 23:52
  Speaker 5: an imitation sixteen. It was actually a Jgar twenty two,
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: so it was a working gun and they used to
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: sell them to a ripe. Yeah, so it's a real
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: It was a real firearm, but it was an imitation
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: look of an M sixteen, obviously smaller caliber, and it
• 24:09
  Speaker 5: held I think fourteen in the mag as opposed to
• 24:13
  Speaker 5: thirty or whatever a real one. We bought that with
• 24:16
  Speaker 5: my farm license farm gun license at the Melbourne Sports
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: Debot in the city, which doesn't exist anymore. I'm guessing
• 24:24
  Speaker 5: they don't have a sports shop like it used to
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: be called an MSD I think for memory. So the
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: plan was that I needed a car, and being a
• 24:32
  Speaker 5: typical Yobo and being a big VA boy, I thought
• 24:35
  Speaker 5: I better have a decent car for the robbery.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: And it was pissing down rain.
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: So when I was to Menningham Road, in Doncaster were
• 24:44
  Speaker 5: I'm not sure if it's Templestow, but you come out
• 24:46
  Speaker 5: of Heidelberg and head up sort of twists and around
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: and go up to Doncaster, about three or four car
• 24:52
  Speaker 5: yards there, and there's a really nice Mustang in there,
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: sixty nine model passback Mustang. I'm dressed suitably to take
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: it for a drive, and the salesman wet can't let
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: the cars out of the yard today, So I screwed there.
• 25:09
  Speaker 5: So I went to the next yard and they had
• 25:11
  Speaker 5: a lousy little Falcon Ho Phase three sedan. Well let's
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: better than nothing, so hopped in with a car yard
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: guy until the protest drive drove over to somewhere in Rosanna,
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: I think from a memory, and pretended I was buying
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: it for my wife.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: So anyway, we pulled up at this address that's not
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: my place.
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: And he's full of it because he's going to sell
• 25:35
  Speaker 5: this car, oh cash. So anyway, he's up the driveway
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: quicker than I am because he wants to meet the
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: missus and set and impress it with the car. He's
• 25:44
  Speaker 5: already into the up the driveway and I've stopped at
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: the car, and he's looked back and I'm standing by
• 25:51
  Speaker 5: the driver's door, and I've pulled this pistol which is
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: only an air gun, out of my pocket and pointed
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: at him. He's gone, this is where we part company,
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: and he goes, what with the car? Oh yeah? And
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: he just still there like a stun mullet and I
• 26:07
  Speaker 5: just drove off with his car.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: So now he's seen your face and everything. Yeah. Yeah,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: it's not a particularly artful no.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, nomally is supposed to steal the car without
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: people seeing.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: You get away. Actually, you are one hundred percent right. See.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: The thing about robbers in my experience is they tended
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: to have a motivation like drugs or alcohol or gambling.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: Yet none of those things but a gambling what was
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: the actual motivation?
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm going to make a stabbing any of you.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Both of you.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Now, I can say one thing. I believe you with
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: a planner. I do believe that, and you were driving it.
• 26:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and that in itself, whilst on one should you
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: I feel like I should get patted on the back,
• 26:50
  Speaker 5: and then on the other side, I think I was
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: the demise of the family because of that. But yeah,
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: my personal motivation and because you know, people talk about
• 27:00
  Speaker 5: and overly talk about the competition between twins, because sometimes
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: their competition was together that we're going to beat the world.
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: Sometimes the competition would be that I'm going to beat
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: you as my twin. And like even as kids, Dug
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: barrack for Essendon because the family bar for Collingwood and
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: he didn't want to bag the same team as me.
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: Even at the dinner table, he ate carrots and I
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: ate pumpkin. But I would never eat carrots because that's
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: Douglass's thing. But if you tell your twin brother that
• 27:30
  Speaker 5: you live twenty four to seven a weakness, it's.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Going to come back and orta.
• 27:34
  Speaker 5: So as we grew up and grew apart a little
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: bit when I started branching out into supervision instead of
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: carpentery and things like that. And I had a bad
• 27:44
  Speaker 5: medical situation when I was a child, I had rheumatic
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: fever or teenager anyway. So in my very early twenties
• 27:52
  Speaker 5: I started having what I thought heart attacks. And because
• 27:55
  Speaker 5: my dad died of a heart attack, slash whatever, and
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: my mum made a big thing about it and doctors
• 28:01
  Speaker 5: made a big thing about it. When I started having
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: what I thought was possibly heart attacks, I went to
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: our family doctor who said, look, I'm having these whatever
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: these things are, and he said, I you know, I'll
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: send you to a specialist. And in my simple little
• 28:15
  Speaker 5: world in my head was well, if you're going to
• 28:18
  Speaker 5: a specialist or something wrong, like if if it's a headache,
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: he'll give me tablets. But to send me as specialist,
• 28:24
  Speaker 5: that's serious. So I never went. So I started having
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: these so called heart attacks on a regular basis, not
• 28:31
  Speaker 5: telling anybody, certainly, not wanting to worry with my wife,
• 28:36
  Speaker 5: and didn't want to divol to weakness to my brother.
• 28:39
  Speaker 5: So unbeknownst to him, while we're plotting and planning the
• 28:42
  Speaker 5: theories and doing a robbery, my motivation was growing stronger
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: because I believed that if my dad died at forty
• 28:52
  Speaker 5: one and I'm having these heart attack things, I'm not
• 28:56
  Speaker 5: going to make twenty five. So the clock's ticking. And
• 29:01
  Speaker 5: I've always from that time always said that I never
• 29:03
  Speaker 5: believed I was going to get a gold watch, so
• 29:05
  Speaker 5: I better go and get my home because so I'm
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: not going to get to retirement age. So that Thursday
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: before Easter in seventy seven, i'd obviously gone times up.
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: That's why it happened that day, and so it was
• 29:18
  Speaker 5: unplanned and instead of being the bank, it was something
• 29:23
  Speaker 5: easy and so it was the b at Munda. If
• 29:26
  Speaker 5: you go about plenty road from Preston, it's about halfway.
• 29:29
  Speaker 5: Now it's a suburb, but in those days it was
• 29:32
  Speaker 5: a country little village. So anyway, once getting the falcon, Gt.
• 29:37
  Speaker 5: Rondevood with Douglas for a few hours and sat around
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: in and think it's Arthur's Creek Cemetery near Doriing waiting
• 29:46
  Speaker 5: basically for night time.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: To go and rob the tab why night time?
• 29:51
  Speaker 5: Actually have no idea, you know, these things evolved like
• 29:55
  Speaker 5: they evolved into a highly proficient robbing situation, but they
• 30:00
  Speaker 5: evolved through trial and error. So the plan there was
• 30:05
  Speaker 5: rob the place, drive down a particular road into the
• 30:08
  Speaker 5: bush basically and skirt around through Diamond Valley and back
• 30:12
  Speaker 5: to Greensborough and meet up were dug at Apollo Park,
• 30:18
  Speaker 5: which is in those days was a posh new building
• 30:22
  Speaker 5: estate on the side of the hill. Anyway, so that
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: was the plan and we lived in that area at
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: on a farming Doreen which is next place to Murnder.
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: So I knew all the roads, all the dirt roads,
• 30:33
  Speaker 5: really well, but what I've forgotten was the rain he.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Stopping there for a minute. Yep.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: Just with robbers say they become addicted to the adrenaline
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: of those situations where you're running somewhere, you're pointing out
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: at somebody they hand over the cash. What did that
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: feel like to you that first time?
• 30:54
  Speaker 5: Well, actually there was two first times that day because
• 30:57
  Speaker 5: obviously taking the car, the buzzers were taking somebody's Falcon
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: GDH O place three. I had my own fast cars,
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: but that was pretty good because I'd never actually do
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: one of these. So that was like if going and
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: test driving a POSH car is five or six out
• 31:15
  Speaker 5: of ten, unbelievable, taking somebody's car like that was eleven
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: out of ten.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: So yeah, there's obviously an adrenaline buzz and that, and
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: then onto the tab.
• 31:26
  Speaker 5: Then obviously come down off the buzz of doing naughty stuff. Yeah,
• 31:32
  Speaker 5: sort of naughty therefore exciting, then come down off that
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: for a few hours waiting to go and do the toab.
• 31:39
  Speaker 5: In those days, tab's your bet there during the day,
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: and that's before computers, so you'd actually get a betting
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: slip and you'd have to go back.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: And match it.
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: To get paid, So you couldn't go to any toa
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: but you have to go back to when where you
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: put the bet on. So my theory was, because I've
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: been involved in horses and gambling, was that hopefully all
• 32:02
  Speaker 5: the money's there and everybody lost, so after five thirty
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: went because they used to close, so after five thirty
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: you could collect. So if I go in there at
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: six o'clock and everybody had a bad day, I'm going
• 32:15
  Speaker 5: to pick up heeps. So I'm guessing that was the theory,
• 32:18
  Speaker 5: and later on it was definitely the theory. So going
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: into the tab, I was going to wear a stocking mask,
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: but because I was so wet because of the rain
• 32:27
  Speaker 5: and getting out of the car and all that, I
• 32:29
  Speaker 5: couldn't get the stocking on.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: And I never liked it anyway. So and I'm.
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: Dressed in overalls, which was stupid CARKI overalls like a carpenter.
• 32:37
  Speaker 5: So of Whilston with his carbine or what it looks
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: like a M sixteen, demanded the money and for him
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: to open the safe, and what I really got was
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: a lecture on how stupid I am from the guy
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: behind the counter, and he gave me three hundred Bucks
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: and told me it basically told me to f off.
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: It was pretty well the way way it was put
• 32:55
  Speaker 5: to me. Lecture Bucks, Yeah, like you know what do
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: you know, like your stupid little boy sort of thing.
• 33:00
  Speaker 5: So anyway, that's so good. So what's subsequent After I
• 33:02
  Speaker 5: got the lecture and left with my tail between my
• 33:04
  Speaker 5: left eggs, I jumped into the GT and then suddenly
• 33:08
  Speaker 5: I feel ten foot tall again because I'm in the GT.
• 33:10
  Speaker 5: So I'm gunning it down to a pickup point where
• 33:13
  Speaker 5: I'm going to throw the big, big, big bag of
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: money out to my brother and he's going to put
• 33:18
  Speaker 5: it in his car because they'll be looking for orange
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: Gutfalcon and he's just going to drive out of the
• 33:24
  Speaker 5: area no problem at all. He's got no cunning and
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: he's just got a bag of money in it. The
• 33:28
  Speaker 5: money bag was about that big, outsized of a sandwich bag.
• 33:32
  Speaker 5: So anyway, I proceeded to go through the rest of
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: the plan, and that is to go up through the
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: dirt roads out the far side of the Diamond Valley
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: and then come back into the Diamond Valley back into
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: Frankston at the Greensboro at the meeting point, Well, I
• 33:46
  Speaker 5: got onto some dirt roads behind the farm we used
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: to live in. I was slipping and sliding, probably probably
• 33:51
  Speaker 5: doing way faster than I should have been. And those
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: roads in those days, and they still are basically dirt,
• 33:57
  Speaker 5: but they're clay, so when they're wet, they're slippery. And
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: I remember turning into a particular road is going to
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: take me heading back to towards the right place, back
• 34:06
  Speaker 5: to the end result, And it's a downward hill to
• 34:11
  Speaker 5: a bridge at the bottom over a creek, and then
• 34:15
  Speaker 5: it goes back up the hill again, and I went, okay,
• 34:18
  Speaker 5: And I drove very fast carss every day in my life,
• 34:22
  Speaker 5: so I'm going, oh, just pull it back a bit,
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: just pull it back. So I'm going down this hill,
• 34:26
  Speaker 5: but I've already gunned it up, and I can't go
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: for the brakes because I'm just going to end up
• 34:32
  Speaker 5: in the paddock. So I'm probably two hundred meters down
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: at this bridge, and I'm going you just need one more,
• 34:39
  Speaker 5: little tiny little jab on the brakes, just one more,
• 34:42
  Speaker 5: and a bridge pivots to about a fifteen to twenty
• 34:46
  Speaker 5: degree angle off the road, so it's sort of like
• 34:48
  Speaker 5: a little elbow. So probably twenty meters before the bridge,
• 34:52
  Speaker 5: I go, no, you're still too fast, So just one
• 34:56
  Speaker 5: little slight jab on the brakes again and I knew
• 34:59
  Speaker 5: it's instantly it's too much. So instead of going over
• 35:04
  Speaker 5: the bridge, I see this big wooden post on the
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: side of the bridge, the size six seven hundred millimeters
• 35:12
  Speaker 5: across two foot across it. It's sort of in slow motion,
• 35:15
  Speaker 5: and you're going if I hit that friggin post, I'm dead.
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: So I'm not going to get on the bridge, and
• 35:21
  Speaker 5: I don't want to hit the post. So I had
• 35:23
  Speaker 5: to go to the left and I put the pelp
• 35:26
  Speaker 5: and jet in the creek and then so I know
• 35:29
  Speaker 5: where I am. I'm behind the farm we used to
• 35:31
  Speaker 5: live at, which is twenty something case from the meeting point.
• 35:34
  Speaker 5: I'm going to have to walk from Doreen to Greensborough.
• 35:39
  Speaker 5: And because I knew the area, I know which ways
• 35:41
  Speaker 5: are going to walk by it. But because I'm a
• 35:43
  Speaker 5: highly wanted person now, I decided my wisdom that I
• 35:47
  Speaker 5: would walk twenty meters inside the paddocks parallel to the roads.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: But every time I saw a car, I.
• 35:55
  Speaker 5: Would dive onto the grass and so I wouldn't be
• 35:58
  Speaker 5: seen in the paddocks, which you wouldn't have seen me anyway,
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: because it was rating that bad that HI like, you
• 36:03
  Speaker 5: wouldn't have seen me if I was two feet away
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: from you. So anyway, that's what happened. So I spend
• 36:09
  Speaker 5: three or four hours whatever it was to walk back
• 36:11
  Speaker 5: to Greensboro Ring and we're falling in creeks and all
• 36:14
  Speaker 5: sorts of things over the period of time, et cetera,
• 36:17
  Speaker 5: et cetera. I had dogs on farms bark at me
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: into all things that would you'd expect to happen anyway,
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: So got back to the pickup point, split up the booty,
• 36:27
  Speaker 5: so I think I kept two hundred and gave him
• 36:29
  Speaker 5: under it. So at that point, everything's gone wrong, basically.
• 36:33
  Speaker 5: And then the next day we're going off to a
• 36:36
  Speaker 5: family gathering at my mum's place, and conversation between myself
• 36:40
  Speaker 5: and my brother was never doing that again, Like I've
• 36:42
  Speaker 5: just ruined my life.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: You know, that's just stupid.
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: I've got to walk, unfortunately, twenty ks with this belief
• 36:50
  Speaker 5: that the whole world's looking for me. And when I
• 36:52
  Speaker 5: sat back and thought about that in subsequent weeks, I went,
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: that's pretty clever.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: How could they ever find you?
• 37:01
  Speaker 5: So the mistakes actually evolved into a plane. So the
• 37:08
  Speaker 5: after dark banded mentality or methodology was born from that,
• 37:14
  Speaker 5: and throughout that two and a half year period as
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: it evolved in other directions, was for similar reasons. There
• 37:22
  Speaker 5: was newspaper articles or whatever, or on the radio that
• 37:27
  Speaker 5: he probably drives afore wheel drive. He might have a
• 37:30
  Speaker 5: motorbike trailer to get his motorbikes near the bank, blah
• 37:33
  Speaker 5: blah blah. So I started using horse trailers because I
• 37:37
  Speaker 5: had horses, and nobody's going to look in the back
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: of a horse float to see if it's a horse
• 37:41
  Speaker 5: or a bike. So you could move the bikes around
• 37:44
  Speaker 5: the country areas, because what's more normal than a car
• 37:47
  Speaker 5: and a horse float in a country area.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: And the other thing that you're noting, no doubt is
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: the press is saying one bloke and there was two
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: of you. Did that occur to you that the twin
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: thing was going to work to you or advantage in
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: this well?
• 38:01
  Speaker 5: It wasn't the original plan because the original bank was
• 38:04
  Speaker 5: going to be two people running into a bank. So
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: again it evolved from that practice run at Munda. I
• 38:11
  Speaker 5: became very aware of after two, three, four or five
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: jobs of tabs. That the mentality was you go into
• 38:19
  Speaker 5: TB at night, you rob it, and it was winter.
• 38:22
  Speaker 5: There's really not many people out on a winter's night
• 38:25
  Speaker 5: unless they're doing something, so you've mineralized the amount of
• 38:29
  Speaker 5: people in the area. But the other thing is you
• 38:31
  Speaker 5: leave the tab and you disappear into the dark, and
• 38:35
  Speaker 5: then you've got to move quietly to a pick up
• 38:39
  Speaker 5: renevout point. That became very apparent that once you were
• 38:43
  Speaker 5: in the dark, you were basically home. You had to
• 38:46
  Speaker 5: go through the formality of walking the distance or whatever
• 38:49
  Speaker 5: it might be, and you might use some sort of
• 38:52
  Speaker 5: transport to get you away quickly, and then you would
• 38:54
  Speaker 5: go on to foot. And that was always the plan,
• 38:58
  Speaker 5: whether it was the early days of tabs or whether
• 39:00
  Speaker 5: it was later in the banks, was you needed to
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: move quickly away from the area and then quietly move
• 39:08
  Speaker 5: through what would be in the search area. Now never
• 39:12
  Speaker 5: thought of at the time, but in the fact what
• 39:14
  Speaker 5: we were doing was we were doing guerrilla warfare on
• 39:16
  Speaker 5: little country towns. We're running in, getting the objective and
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: disappearing the same as guerrilla warfare. Very unfair when you
• 39:24
  Speaker 5: think about soft targets like a country toab or a
• 39:28
  Speaker 5: country bank, and I lived in a country, so I
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: knew exactly how easy that would be. And even if
• 39:35
  Speaker 5: you looked at the logistics of doing a bank in
• 39:37
  Speaker 5: a country, or a toa b in a country, one
• 39:39
  Speaker 5: or two coppers in a town and at night there
• 39:42
  Speaker 5: only be one on duty, if there was any on duty.
• 39:44
  Speaker 5: And most buildings have two doors, a front door and
• 39:47
  Speaker 5: a back door, so if one copper comes to the
• 39:49
  Speaker 5: front door, I'm just going out the back, so it
• 39:52
  Speaker 5: was nearly foolproof.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: What did it feel like to read about your exploits
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: on the paper?
• 39:59
  Speaker 5: It's interesting because you pick up the sun here or
• 40:02
  Speaker 5: the sun and it was amusing sometimes I read and
• 40:06
  Speaker 5: I remember the one that always fascinated me at that
• 40:09
  Speaker 5: time of night was we believe we'll have an earlier
• 40:13
  Speaker 5: arrest of the after dark bandit because we've got him
• 40:16
  Speaker 5: cornered in the black forest up near wood End and
• 40:20
  Speaker 5: we're sitting in a car reading this.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: I don't think they're going to have an earlier arrest.
• 40:25
  Speaker 5: But part of the kit to do these toboos or
• 40:29
  Speaker 5: banks was I'd have a small kit bag, and it's
• 40:32
  Speaker 5: a habit that I've always had to this very day.
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: Is that in that kit bag would be some chocolates,
• 40:39
  Speaker 5: p energy, can of tab or whatever or Royal Crown
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: in those days. And then a radio and I was
• 40:48
  Speaker 5: always tuned into three Year's ed at seven o'clock to
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: see if I'd robbed it, because they breaking news that
• 40:55
  Speaker 5: another TOA B had been robbed. So it was good
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: to know that, you know, you weren't having a dream.
• 41:01
  Speaker 5: And of course every hour on the hour that night
• 41:05
  Speaker 5: they'd be talking about they're looking for this guy.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: So yeah he was.
• 41:10
  Speaker 5: And I'm sure if it's the right words, but when
• 41:12
  Speaker 5: you read whether it was sitting in my lumbsroom having
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: a coffee or whether it was at midnight reading the
• 41:19
  Speaker 5: paper in front of their son Harold of course as
• 41:21
  Speaker 5: an ego about it, like idiots, you're out there in
• 41:24
  Speaker 5: the rain looking for me and here i am. I'm
• 41:26
  Speaker 5: about to go to Ligon Street and have a coffee.
• 41:29
  Speaker 5: Whilst it's an illegal activity, it's no different to winning
• 41:33
  Speaker 5: a football match.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you start to develop a really good team
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: work with Douglas obviously, Yeah, tell me what was his
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: role if you take credit for the planning, what was
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: his role generally?
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: Well, you see the things obviously looking back nearly fifty
• 41:52
  Speaker 5: years ago, I look at it differently until I did
• 41:55
  Speaker 5: then in those days he was and upset it previously,
• 42:00
  Speaker 5: and I've discussed it with him, is that I always
• 42:03
  Speaker 5: saw him as unreliable, Like it was sort of like,
• 42:06
  Speaker 5: if you're going to go and build a house, you
• 42:08
  Speaker 5: better turn up every day. He's going to build a house,
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: So if you're busy doing other things, you're getting in
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: the way of me robbing at tob and we sort
• 42:16
  Speaker 5: of took it in turns of actually being the frontman
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: or the assistant, except that the numbers got way out
• 42:22
  Speaker 5: of proportion. I think historically, if you looked at the
• 42:25
  Speaker 5: list of jobs, I did about twenty and he did
• 42:27
  Speaker 5: about seven, and some of those I did totally by
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: myself because he was unavailable to be my assistant. But
• 42:36
  Speaker 5: when we were in the same place, the team worked
• 42:39
  Speaker 5: really well. But he was getting reluctant. Whether that was
• 42:44
  Speaker 5: common sense, whether it was fear, whether it was laziness,
• 42:47
  Speaker 5: I don't know. I'm not dug and there's been times
• 42:50
  Speaker 5: where I've really ridiculed that. But when I look back
• 42:55
  Speaker 5: at it, that's a bad or to use. Really, like
• 42:59
  Speaker 5: your low terms, that's a badder person saying you're not
• 43:03
  Speaker 5: good because you're not as bad as me. So in
• 43:07
  Speaker 5: that environment, he's dropping the ball. But in the big picture,
• 43:12
  Speaker 5: I'm dropping the ball. I'm doing this stuff that we
• 43:14
  Speaker 5: shouldn't be doing.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: Because you think you're going to die anyway, that's right,
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: so you're not worrying about the risks so much.
• 43:20
  Speaker 5: I'm living a death wish that he doesn't know about
• 43:22
  Speaker 5: because I'm okay with if they put a bull in
• 43:24
  Speaker 5: my head because I'm going to die by the toime
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: on twenty five. So two things evolve from that. I'm
• 43:30
  Speaker 5: fearless and the harder it gets, the better it gets.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: And there were times when the reporting, and this is
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: where the twin thing came in was they would say
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: the Blaker robbed us. This day was serious and this
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: other one was let more lighthearted. And that's clearly the
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: two personalities. Do you think that is that a fair thing?
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: That? No, it was.
• 43:49
  Speaker 5: It was totally was because at one stage we eye
• 43:53
  Speaker 5: him whatever. We had several different media names over the period,
• 43:56
  Speaker 5: and one of them was the Gentleman Bandit. So I
• 43:58
  Speaker 5: think if I go through the list, it was machine
• 44:01
  Speaker 5: Gun Bandit, Gentleman Bandit, monkey face after.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: Duck Bandit, Which one's your favorite?
• 44:08
  Speaker 5: Well, an associate in jail gave me the best one.
• 44:11
  Speaker 5: I like because it was drawn from that. And one
• 44:15
  Speaker 5: of the guy that I sort of did time early
• 44:18
  Speaker 5: in jail with and then later in jail because he
• 44:20
  Speaker 5: came back, he used to come me midnight, and I
• 44:23
  Speaker 5: like that. See, you don't get to choose your name,
• 44:27
  Speaker 5: you know, like it's even like a nickname. You don't
• 44:29
  Speaker 5: get to choose it, like they choose it for you.
• 44:31
  Speaker 5: I've never liked the term after duck bandit because of
• 44:33
  Speaker 5: who gave it.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: To me, and that was Jeff Wilkinson, the journal Yeah.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: Was there a sense that there was an inevitability that
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: this was all going to end in tears and blood?
• 44:44
  Speaker 5: Well, from my point of it was yeah, because I
• 44:46
  Speaker 5: thought that my image that I always had was basically
• 44:51
  Speaker 5: that tab's in those days were basically in a normal
• 44:55
  Speaker 5: shop with big glass front windows, and they're lit up
• 44:59
  Speaker 5: as they should do, so when if you're outside in
• 45:02
  Speaker 5: the street, you're looking in, you can see everybody in
• 45:04
  Speaker 5: there except et cetera, et cetera. So if you see
• 45:07
  Speaker 5: me robbing it and you're standing outside and you're a cop,
• 45:11
  Speaker 5: don't come in and tackle me in amongst four or
• 45:13
  Speaker 5: five others waited me to walk out through the door
• 45:16
  Speaker 5: and just put one between my eyes. And that was
• 45:19
  Speaker 5: what I perceived to be my fate, even when there
• 45:23
  Speaker 5: was a shot fired, which I was very angry about
• 45:26
  Speaker 5: in one of Doug's robberies about a year in that
• 45:30
  Speaker 5: really split us forever, and.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: He regrets that still. We can hear that on the podcast.
• 45:34
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I wasn't there when he fired a shot, but
• 45:38
  Speaker 5: I certainly judged him on that night. I judged him
• 45:41
  Speaker 5: as if I was there, and we still disagree on
• 45:44
  Speaker 5: this to the very day. But I said to him
• 45:46
  Speaker 5: the next day, because you fired a shot, we're not
• 45:51
  Speaker 5: bank robbers or too heavy robbers. We're now shooters and
• 45:56
  Speaker 5: I'm not going to wear your shootings. So I devised
• 46:01
  Speaker 5: because I perceived myself to be the ring leader, and
• 46:04
  Speaker 5: he thought the conceits that I said it, but he
• 46:07
  Speaker 5: doesn't think I would ever fulfill it. And that was
• 46:10
  Speaker 5: the first man. Court doesn't wear the other guy's blues,
• 46:13
  Speaker 5: but what he does is give the other guy a
• 46:16
  Speaker 5: twelve hours start. Back then you could have been in
• 46:19
  Speaker 5: New Zealand in twelve hours wherever a lot he's in today.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: So that was my ruling.
• 46:26
  Speaker 5: On the shooting, that we don't shoot, and now that
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: you've shot, if you get arrested, you're got to give
• 46:33
  Speaker 5: me twelve hours start, and if I get arrested, I'll
• 46:35
  Speaker 5: give you twelve hours start before I concede. I've got
• 46:38
  Speaker 5: a twin brother. That was exactly what happened when I
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: got arrested. He said it was only ten hours and
• 46:44
  Speaker 5: that was only because they worked ou out themselves. But
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: the thing is that the philosophies on guns come up
• 46:52
  Speaker 5: for debate, obviously as the thing progressed, because their response
• 46:57
  Speaker 5: to being a gun discharged was he's not a gentleman
• 47:03
  Speaker 5: bandit because if he doesn't get his your future. And
• 47:06
  Speaker 5: I think I can't remember the head cop that said it,
• 47:09
  Speaker 5: but he basically went, these guys have just turned into
• 47:11
  Speaker 5: thugs that if they don't get their way though, shouture.
• 47:14
  Speaker 5: So we're going to up your handy. And there was
• 47:18
  Speaker 5: a conversation that we had was well, do we up
• 47:20
  Speaker 5: the anty. Do we go from toy low level guns
• 47:24
  Speaker 5: armory to higher weapons so that if they take us
• 47:28
  Speaker 5: on we can respond.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: You'd also been carrying a browning.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which was the same as the gun that your
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: father had used.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: Coincidence, just a coincident.
• 47:39
  Speaker 5: Now, I know that Ncis gives us so he doesn't
• 47:42
  Speaker 5: believe in coincidences, but it is. It's a coincidence. Thirty two,
• 47:45
  Speaker 5: wasn't it twenty five? It's what they call it, baby browning.
• 47:49
  Speaker 5: If you put it in your hand, you can hardly
• 47:50
  Speaker 5: see it, like the actual barrel would hardly be longer
• 47:53
  Speaker 5: than your finger.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and at twenty five is a toy. It's going
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: to bounce off a thick jumper, isn't it. Well, apparently
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: it nearly killed somebody. Yeah, But and that's that.
• 48:02
  Speaker 5: And I carried that and it actually saved my life
• 48:05
  Speaker 5: a couple of times in a different environment. One of
• 48:08
  Speaker 5: these periods where I was robbing banks, I spent six
• 48:12
  Speaker 5: months with a broken wrist. When I got involved in horses.
• 48:15
  Speaker 5: On the first day deciding I was going to ride horses,
• 48:18
  Speaker 5: I broke my wrists, my ribs, and my nose in
• 48:20
  Speaker 5: one session on one horse.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: And then every time.
• 48:23
  Speaker 5: I had to do a job or whatever I wanted
• 48:25
  Speaker 5: to do, I had to cut the plaster off my
• 48:26
  Speaker 5: hand so I could ride bikes. That my doctor was
• 48:29
  Speaker 5: getting very frustrated, or the excuses I was using for
• 48:32
  Speaker 5: having to replaster my hand all the time, which leads me.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: To a question.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: You both had wives and children, yep, other lives.
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: How many people knew what you were up to? I
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: think at the end there were people that suspected.
• 48:48
  Speaker 5: I'm not going to sit here and incriminate anybody in
• 48:50
  Speaker 5: the family, but it's like when the police put a
• 48:54
  Speaker 5: million dollars up and go, somebody knows something.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: Well.
• 48:57
  Speaker 5: I remember that Doug's father in law asked him one
• 49:01
  Speaker 5: day about what's going on because Douglass had stolen my
• 49:07
  Speaker 5: car and did exactly what I did with the cars
• 49:09
  Speaker 5: of the car.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Yats got a.
• 49:11
  Speaker 5: Key cut on my car, was just poetic or anything
• 49:14
  Speaker 5: about it, and left me at the Bellot Races and
• 49:18
  Speaker 5: took my car and the briefcase were guns and money
• 49:22
  Speaker 5: in it.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: So he regrets that to this day. By the way,
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: well we talked about what.
• 49:27
  Speaker 5: We joke about it a bit, but there's a level
• 49:29
  Speaker 5: where you know you can joke about it, then you've
• 49:31
  Speaker 5: got to stop talking about it because it'll get it unfriendly.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: So the story goes.
• 49:36
  Speaker 5: That he stole this because it's easy to sell of
• 49:39
  Speaker 5: me because I was getting into him because he wasn't
• 49:43
  Speaker 5: pulling his weight. And as I said, when you look back,
• 49:46
  Speaker 5: good for you. You should have actually been more dominant about
• 49:50
  Speaker 5: not pulling your weight. You should have Actually I disagree
• 49:53
  Speaker 5: that he said. We had arguments about trying to force
• 49:56
  Speaker 5: me into it, but he could have just not played.
• 49:58
  Speaker 5: You don't have to be violent about your disapproval. You
• 50:01
  Speaker 5: just just don't mix with me. Like, if I don't
• 50:04
  Speaker 5: like somebody, I don't. I've got a rule. Whi's a
• 50:06
  Speaker 5: bit off this, But if I don't like somebody, I
• 50:08
  Speaker 5: won't drink with them because my socialized But I'm certainly
• 50:12
  Speaker 5: not going to get half tanked with somebody I don't
• 50:14
  Speaker 5: like in case something comes out.
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like, I don't like you.
• 50:19
  Speaker 5: So he stole from me in an effort to put
• 50:22
  Speaker 5: me back in my place, which I thought I understand,
• 50:25
  Speaker 5: but it wasn't very nice at the time. So I
• 50:27
  Speaker 5: went down to his farm and he wasn't there. Obviously
• 50:31
  Speaker 5: he disappeared. So I kicked his house in a bit
• 50:34
  Speaker 5: full rainbow style with a weapon.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, with a weapon? What sort of weapon? I was
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: sixteen look alike, fully ready to use? You were going
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: to shoot him.
• 50:44
  Speaker 5: Well, I didn't know what he had, so he don't
• 50:47
  Speaker 5: go in there. I like movies, don't go to a
• 50:50
  Speaker 5: gunfight with a knife. Yes, so I suspect he wasn't
• 50:55
  Speaker 5: going to be there anyway, but I'm not going to
• 50:56
  Speaker 5: walk in and go how you're going with?
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: You were angry and you were both at that point.
• 51:00
  Speaker 5: I drove around the whole of Victoria looking for him
• 51:02
  Speaker 5: three days, and I knew way he went because there
• 51:06
  Speaker 5: was he dropped a wheelie at the front of his
• 51:08
  Speaker 5: farm and it went Gippsland Way and he was in
• 51:12
  Speaker 5: Gifts Lane, so he went more giff Lane. So I
• 51:14
  Speaker 5: went through every Gippslane town for three days. Every day
• 51:17
  Speaker 5: I went down there and went through every town and
• 51:19
  Speaker 5: the only town I didn't actually go in because what
• 51:21
  Speaker 5: I was doing was I going into all the motel
• 51:23
  Speaker 5: some places and going I've got to find my twin brother.
• 51:26
  Speaker 5: There's been a definite family I can't contact him, but
• 51:29
  Speaker 5: I know he's down here somewhere, So that was my spiel. Anyway,
• 51:32
  Speaker 5: I get to Sale, which is one of the bigger
• 51:34
  Speaker 5: towns down there, go through three or four motels whatever
• 51:38
  Speaker 5: it's down there, and as a motel beside the police station.
• 51:41
  Speaker 5: I go, he's not going to be in there. That's
• 51:44
  Speaker 5: where he was. So anyway, a few days, lady who
• 51:47
  Speaker 5: rings me and negotiates a meeting in Melbourne.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: How was that meeting?
• 51:52
  Speaker 5: It's the worst cantlines I've had in my life. Could
• 51:55
  Speaker 5: have taken me a better pub, but yeah it was.
• 51:59
  Speaker 5: Douglas is more like killing each other today and kiss
• 52:02
  Speaker 5: and make up tomorrow, and I just can't do that
• 52:04
  Speaker 5: so easily.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: I can tell that, Yeah, you carry some of these things, not.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: So much that.
• 52:09
  Speaker 5: It's just that for about three years as growing up,
• 52:12
  Speaker 5: he was bigger than me, so he used to bow
• 52:14
  Speaker 5: the crab at me, so get it. Yeah, if somebody
• 52:18
  Speaker 5: to use a term, and once you cross the rubicon,
• 52:21
  Speaker 5: that's it, you know, like they learned that in the Wars.
• 52:25
  Speaker 5: Once you go over that bridge, you can't come back.
• 52:28
  Speaker 5: Now you can come back, but it needs to be
• 52:32
  Speaker 5: you know, you needed to build a new bridge. Yeah right,
• 52:35
  Speaker 5: And that's where Douglas could try and kill me today,
• 52:38
  Speaker 5: and then if somebody was trying to kill me tomorrow,
• 52:40
  Speaker 5: you'd kill them. I've got no doubts about that. So yeah,
• 52:44
  Speaker 5: it's not a hold of grudge. It's just I'm probably not.
• 52:48
  Speaker 5: I have never thought that I'm actually this type of
• 52:50
  Speaker 5: people think I am. I'm just a new age sentensive guy.
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: Really.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, But I think one thing Douglas says, we don't
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: want to get too much into this. I think that's
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: something you can have together, this discussion together. But you
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: were both in a sense play acting.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: Oh for sure, I thought about it today.
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: You weren't killers, you weren't violent people, but you were
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: increasingly getting going down this road and everything was closing
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: in on you.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: See.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: One of your big advantages was that you didn't come
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: from a cohort of armed robbers and knew and so
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: there was no one giving you up. You were well planned,
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: well executed, so you had a long time before and
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: you really talked yourselves into a very dangerous place.
• 53:33
  Speaker 5: And obviously we reflect over a period of years and
• 53:36
  Speaker 5: you come up with little sayings like when I think
• 53:39
  Speaker 5: about the planning that went into it, I'm sort of
• 53:42
  Speaker 5: proud of the planning, because if you're going to do it,
• 53:44
  Speaker 5: do it well. But when I look back at it now,
• 53:47
  Speaker 5: it's like we designed a space rocket to go to
• 53:51
  Speaker 5: the Sun, but we're only even going to go to
• 53:54
  Speaker 5: the moon.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: So we overplanned it.
• 53:56
  Speaker 5: We overdesigned it so it was foolproof from the point
• 54:00
  Speaker 5: of view that if you didn't make mistakes, would still
• 54:02
  Speaker 5: be doing it.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: Theoretically, I'd like to see that. Well seventy plus yeah, yeah, Robbers,
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: well that's another story exactly.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: You're becoming more on edge, I guess, which led.
• 54:16
  Speaker 5: To well, probably they being professional police officers, like I'm
• 54:21
  Speaker 5: Robbers squad knew where this was leading. Sooner or later,
• 54:25
  Speaker 5: no matter what your intention is, or your mantra is,
• 54:29
  Speaker 5: or your charter is, sooner or later, it's going to
• 54:32
  Speaker 5: hurt somebody.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: And this led to a moment that I know you
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: still regret to this day and think about on many days,
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: the shooting of the police officer Ray Kosh.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:45
  Speaker 5: Now, and obviously at the time, I'm on a deaf wish,
• 54:49
  Speaker 5: I'm oding on adrenaline.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: Like if I was doing a job.
• 54:53
  Speaker 5: Once a month or over two months, what people don't
• 54:55
  Speaker 5: realize is the other twenty nine days in the month,
• 54:58
  Speaker 5: if it was a monthly one was I was riding
• 55:01
  Speaker 5: the hardest, fastest, roughest horses I could find. I was
• 55:05
  Speaker 5: driving around the countryside at over one hundred mile an
• 55:07
  Speaker 5: hour every day.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: Adrenaline adrenaline, so it leads you to that moment of peril.
• 55:15
  Speaker 5: What happened now when you talk about April twenty seventh
• 55:20
  Speaker 5: or twenty eighth, I can't remember which was a Friday,
• 55:22
  Speaker 5: obviously when I shot Gosh, there was other police events
• 55:28
  Speaker 5: before that that most people don't know. And prior today,
• 55:32
  Speaker 5: I've been thinking about it. And I'm not trying to
• 55:35
  Speaker 5: deflect or use transference or anything like that. But the
• 55:39
  Speaker 5: history of me and coppers over a two year period
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: was the first year they didn't really give a continent
• 55:46
  Speaker 5: all about us. The second year they went, well, they're
• 55:49
  Speaker 5: in for the long run, so we better be too.
• 55:51
  Speaker 5: So they started casing or monitoring. During the day, they'd
• 55:55
  Speaker 5: monitor banks in the country towns, and at night they
• 55:57
  Speaker 5: would monitor the taps. And I became aware of this. So,
• 56:03
  Speaker 5: for example, at Queenscliff as tab at nighttime, I'm watching
• 56:08
  Speaker 5: the copper stand in the door of a shop in
• 56:12
  Speaker 5: an alcove sort of doorway, and he's in the dark
• 56:15
  Speaker 5: watching the tabo, waiting for me. So I'm watching him
• 56:19
  Speaker 5: look for me, And then about ten to seven they
• 56:24
  Speaker 5: closed at seven o'clock, he's just trundled off. I swear
• 56:29
  Speaker 5: he who laughs longest, So went and robbed his tob well,
• 56:33
  Speaker 5: where subsequently I found out that he had to go
• 56:36
  Speaker 5: to the toilet. So while he's having a pitole on
• 56:38
  Speaker 5: Robine's tab, Mortlake toab one of the jobs I did
• 56:43
  Speaker 5: by myself without any help. I'm in the town fairly
• 56:46
  Speaker 5: early and I'm watching the copper patrol his town, and
• 56:50
  Speaker 5: all afternoon he's patrolling banks, and then as the day's
• 56:54
  Speaker 5: gone on, he's now honey looking around the tab area.
• 56:57
  Speaker 5: And Mortlake was a little country town on the way
• 57:00
  Speaker 5: to Warnable, so it's all good.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: So I'm watching him.
• 57:04
  Speaker 5: I'm probably sitting under tree or wherever I'm sitting watching him.
• 57:07
  Speaker 5: Six point thirty quarter seven, whatever it might be. He
• 57:10
  Speaker 5: pulled into the servo and I went, sweet, well you're
• 57:14
  Speaker 5: filling up, I'll fill up. So he's in the servo,
• 57:18
  Speaker 5: I'm Robinie's bank. Finished the job and disappeared into the darkness.
• 57:23
  Speaker 5: So I started to become I guess complacent that they
• 57:30
  Speaker 5: could be then I could still do it. Most people
• 57:32
  Speaker 5: would have went home, right, So, in effect, if you're
• 57:36
  Speaker 5: going to use terminologies, the police to me were the
• 57:39
  Speaker 5: difference between a barrier and a hurdle. A barrier stops you,
• 57:44
  Speaker 5: and a hurdle you've got to jump or go round.
• 57:47
  Speaker 5: Police to me in seventy eight were hurdles that you
• 57:51
  Speaker 5: had to jump necessary part of the trade. Subsequently, that
• 57:57
  Speaker 5: happened several times where I saw them and they didn't
• 58:00
  Speaker 5: see me. At that period of time, Douglas was opting
• 58:04
  Speaker 5: out because the pressure was either unrealistic for him or
• 58:09
  Speaker 5: you didn't want to get cool.
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: You were becoming a bit maniacal by your own admission here.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: The adrenaline, yeah, and your zeal for this was leading
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: you to take greater and greater.
• 58:17
  Speaker 5: Risks exactly, and even to the extent that one of
• 58:20
  Speaker 5: the banks right to the bank. At four or five
• 58:22
  Speaker 5: o'clock or whatever it was, I was in the bush
• 58:26
  Speaker 5: checking out my getaway area and what I'm where I'm
• 58:28
  Speaker 5: going to dump the bike. I was probably breaking branches
• 58:31
  Speaker 5: to put over the bike later, whatever I was doing. Anyway,
• 58:34
  Speaker 5: I dropped the bike and broke the class lever off.
• 58:36
  Speaker 5: So now I've got a bike that's got no clutch.
• 58:39
  Speaker 5: So I wandered around in the bush for about an
• 58:41
  Speaker 5: hour looking for something to fix. So I found some
• 58:45
  Speaker 5: the rope they used to tie a bails with, so
• 58:48
  Speaker 5: I've actually got the henel back in the right place,
• 58:50
  Speaker 5: but it's not really doing a lot because it's obviously
• 58:53
  Speaker 5: all to do with pulling the cable to change the
• 58:56
  Speaker 5: gears or the clutch or whatever. So when I finished
• 59:00
  Speaker 5: tying up the best I could, I could only get
• 59:03
  Speaker 5: first second, and if I was lucky, I could jump
• 59:06
  Speaker 5: into third. So I mean I had a bike with
• 59:08
  Speaker 5: a top speed of about forty five miles an hour,
• 59:11
  Speaker 5: making a lot of noise too, so it's not really
• 59:14
  Speaker 5: what you call a getaway bike. It's the sort of
• 59:16
  Speaker 5: maybe get away bike. So most people go, oh, well,
• 59:19
  Speaker 5: that said, well, come back another day. So I still
• 59:22
  Speaker 5: did the job because I've still got a bike and
• 59:23
  Speaker 5: I still does forty five mile an hour, So that
• 59:26
  Speaker 5: was just hurdles that I had overcome. Then, after watching
• 59:31
  Speaker 5: police look for me and successfully maneuvering around them, I
• 59:37
  Speaker 5: went to the first time I went to Heathcote, or
• 59:39
  Speaker 5: the second time, I noticed as I'm parking a bike
• 59:43
  Speaker 5: that there's a ute in the side street with a
• 59:45
  Speaker 5: guy with a blue jumper on and he's just sitting there,
• 59:50
  Speaker 5: and there's two other people in the car. It was
• 59:52
  Speaker 5: an eh, eh Holden sixty four model. Anyway, I looked
• 59:57
  Speaker 5: at it and went, I think he's a cop, and
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 5: I think he's case from the bank, and I was
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 5: just driven straight into him. So I pulled up on
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 5: the other side of the road, in the side street
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 5: beside the bank, pretended I was tingering with the bike
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 5: and I'm sort of really looking to see what he's doing. Anyway,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 5: I went, I don't know what he's doing, but I
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 5: need to rob a bank, so like, screw you. So
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 5: walked into the bank and as I'm walking the bank,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 5: took my helmet off, and I decided there was enough
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 5: gap between him and me that he wouldn't really see
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 5: my face if I looked the other way.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: So I've walked.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 5: As I'm walking the bank, I pulled my mask on,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 5: gone inside, robbed the bank, finished robbing the bank, looked
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 5: out and I went, oh, screw you. You're still out there.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 5: What am I going to do now? Like running out
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 5: of the bank. So, well, there's only one thing to do.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 5: I'll just have to go and arrest him. So instead
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 5: of going to my bike on that side of the road,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 5: I went across the other side of the road, opened
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 5: his door and pulled him out of his car. At you,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 5: and I've still got my mask on on everything, so
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 5: he's probably putting two and two together. And I said,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 5: you'd be a jack, wouldn't you, And he said nah.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 5: I said, well, you're a tram conductor anyway. So then
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 5: I reached in like I had him at gun point.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 5: I hadn't touched him, but I had him at gun point,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 5: reached in, took his keys and threw it in the park.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 5: So that was my first physical one on one with Copper.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 5: So I'm developing this attitude that they're not very friggin
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 5: good either.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of them, yeah, but in the country
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: there's not.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 5: So my attitude is each time I see one and
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 5: boot one, that hurdle I'm talking about is getting lower
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 5: because they're not very good at this.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 5: On the day that Ray was shot, to an extent
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 5: that even was online with my thinking, and that was
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 5: that I'd been watching Ray do circuits of the town
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 5: since two o'clock and I'm at four point thirty. He's
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 5: doing half hour half hour circuits.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: Which town was just by the way, And this is
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: the second, third, the third time three times.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 5: And there's a reason for that, but that's another story perhaps.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 5: So anyway, I'm watching him, so I've established hism. He's
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 5: doing a circuit every half hour, So at four point
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 5: thirty I've seen him do like five or six circuits,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 5: so I know now if he continues to do what
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 5: he did, he's going to be back at five o'clock
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 5: and I can't get in the bank after five o'clock,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 5: so i have to go now. So that was its
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 5: simple as that. I'm sitting under a tree watching from
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 5: the other side of the football ground, so I've walked across,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 5: going well, I've got thirty minutes to get in the
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 5: bank and get out of the bank. Unbeknown to me,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 5: he's knocking off at four thirty, so he does a
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 5: last lap at four thirty five.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: So I'm walking up the side street.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 5: I've just put my mask on and I'm about twenty
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 5: meters from the corner and there's a small shrub on
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 5: the nature strip and I'm about in line with that.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 5: He pulls up in his valiant cop car, so on
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 5: the other side of the tree, so he can't really
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 5: see me. You can see me, but he can't see
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 5: me very well, so he gets out of his car
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 5: and walks around the front of his car, and now
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 5: we're both him playing side. My shotgun is in the bag,
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 5: so I haven't pulled it yet, and I've got the
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 5: little twenty five caliber pistol in a homemade holster under
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 5: my right shoulder. He's a cop come to arrest me,
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 5: and he's probably like you assume he's got a gun, so.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: I better have one of them.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 5: So I pulled it and he isn't with his gun,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 5: so like it's surprised me because he is looking for
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 5: me and his job is to arrest me, and he's
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 5: come out of his car like he's going to the
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 5: fish and chip shop. So anyway, he backtracks, and this
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 5: is not to belittle the guy, but he tries to
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 5: hide under the car. He's actually trying to scurry under
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 5: the car. I'm around the front of the car, sort
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 5: of grab your arm or whatever, and obviously my body
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 5: language is get out from under the car. Were you
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 5: At that point in my head, I've just arrested a
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 5: police officer, So then I'm escorting. I've said something and
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 5: we've we've had a little conversation, a bit of small
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 5: talk to the effect of what well, I'm about I'm
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 5: to rob your bank, And he didn't say it too much,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 5: or he said nothing of any consequence. But I've got
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 5: his elbow in my right hand, my gun's in my
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 5: left hand, and we've probably walked ten meters on an
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 5: angle from the front of his car to the corner
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 5: of the bank building. And at that point it's the guller.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 5: Like being an old country town, the gullas are pretty tall,
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 5: and with one hand here and the other hand with
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 5: a gun, I've physically got to acknowledge I'm stepping up
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 5: onto the the higher grass. And at that point he's
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 5: decided he's going to go for my gun. So right
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 5: there in the gut area, he's turned in front of
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 5: me and gone for the gun. At that point, it's
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 5: basically a wrestle like you see on TV. The gun
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 5: is gone under his arm pit and he's holding on
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 5: to it, but he's got less strength to me because
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 5: his arms are in the wrong place. He hasn't got
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 5: a lot of energy when the gun's back here anyway,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 5: So we're wrestling over the gun.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: And it goes off.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 5: And we sort of look and we're like we're embraced
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 5: like we're hugging, so to speak, and we sort of
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 5: look at each other. It's like, you know, like they
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 5: do in the movies. And he slumped, so like my
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 5: acknowledgment then is he got shot. I didn't like, there
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 5: was no knowledge I had shot him till he slumped.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 5: As he slumped, he dragged me down and he twisted,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 5: and I've fallen on him. And so basically when I
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 5: fell on top of him, as he's dragged me down
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 5: in the momentum, the first shot is behind his hip.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 5: For years they've said I shot him in the back.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 5: It's in sort of the back of his hip. As
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 5: I've fallen down on top of him, the guns discharged
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 5: in the other hip, sort of nearly like twin bullet holes.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 5: I've got up off with him, and I've realized like
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 5: instantly that it's gone off again. And obviously I'm not hurt,
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 5: so he is. He wasn't showing there was no blood.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 5: He was wearing his tunic over his shirt, so I
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 5: couldn't even see any bullet holes or anything like that,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 5: except that the man was distressed. I picked him up
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 5: or helped him get up, said something to the effect
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 5: of how many banks you got in this town anyway, Copper,
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 5: So it was a bit of a gloat that, like, your.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: Town's now mine.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 5: But as we're nearly into the bank, I stopped for
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 5: a second, looked at him and said, you're the first
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 5: person that's ever seen my face.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: I should finish you right here and now.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 5: And you know, there's like it seemed like about an
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 5: hour between words, and then I said, but I won't,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 5: and I'll do life for you. And then we walked
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 5: in the bank. I sat him down and the rock
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 5: the bank. He was still conscious. He was I didn't realize.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 5: I told him to sit down and behave himself. Apparently
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 5: he stood up a couple of times and then sat
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 5: down again. I was criticized because I said to the staff,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 5: I'll just shot your cop when you finished the over
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 5: and me, you can ring an ambulance. And apparently the
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 5: only time in two and a half years that I'd
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 5: physically man handled somebody apart from Ray was one of
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 5: the bank tellers says, what's the number like to the ambulance,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 5: and you got to beef and kidding me, and I
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 5: kicked him up the ass. You know, it was because
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 5: like I'm not happy about what's happened, and he got
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 5: some clan going, have you got the number? So left
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 5: the bank in a teller's car, the dats and the
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 5: orange Datson. Well yeah, and she wasn't happy because I'd
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 5: taken it before, but I didn't break it the first time.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 5: So anyway, my bike was because we were getting so
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 5: hoight you couldn't leave your bike in the street anymore.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 5: So my bike was behind the main street that he's
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 5: good in a dirt road. It's the showgrounds, but it's
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 5: the world's worst showgrounds in the world. But I hid
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 5: my bike in like guess what was what the chokpins? Right,
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 5: So I've driven the Datson around there. Subsequently, I didn't
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 5: know there was two coppers on duty, which it was,
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 5: so that whilst I'm making my way to my bike,
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 5: the second cop has come from the police station to
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 5: the bank, jumped in the cop car and obviously was
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 5: told I went that way. So he's come around a
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 5: slightly different way to the showgrounds than I did. And
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 5: as I'm coming out of the showgrounds on my bike
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 5: going you know we're gonna do now, it's going to
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 5: scrub and I'm gone, he parked across the driveway of
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 5: the showgrounds, which is to gravel Road, and it's big
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 5: spoon drains and things. And I'll never forget this because
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 5: I've driven right up to him, and because he's driven
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 5: that way and parked across the driveway, his driver's window
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 5: and the driverside of the car are what I'm looking
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 5: at from where I'm coming from. So if I don't stop,
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 5: I'm gas are going to hit his driver's door. So
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 5: I'm about probably three meters from his car. I stop
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 5: and assess how am I going to get around his
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 5: car because he's blocked my way, and then realize that
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 5: I can get around it and go down the grass over.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: The spoon drain and continue.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 5: And to this very day, it's a little bit like
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 5: a scene out of Jaws where Jaws suddenly becomes like
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 5: slow motion and larger than a live and this so
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 5: I've got to cop that's the old side of the
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 5: one that's just been shot, just sitting in the car
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 5: looking at me as if like that was it.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: There was no. He never pulled a gun, he never
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: tried to get out of his car.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 5: Its just like like I win, I've parked over the
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 5: driveway and I thought like. It shocked me for a second.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 5: I'm like, aren't you going to shoot me or something?
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 5: So when nothing happened, I just drove off. Then he
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 5: tailed me for about five or ten k's into the
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 5: scrub behind who's hurt. And I was going exactly where
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 5: I had predetermined. But because I'm on a bike and
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 5: I'm doing about eighty five mile an hour, I was
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 5: catching dust in front of me from somebody else. He'd
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 5: lost sight of me, so he's now following my dust
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 5: in the cop car. And lucky for me, where I
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 5: had to turn off this main track, there's dust in
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 5: front of me, and I turned off onto a side
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 5: track that sand, therefore no dust, so when he got
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 5: to turn off, he still sees the dust of whoever
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 5: is in front of me, so he follows the dust.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 5: I turn left to my parking spot for my bike
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 5: and hide the bike and that's it. But when I
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 5: look back at the interactions with all the police, including
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 5: the next one, in simple kid terms, I won.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: You lost.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 5: You were sitting in your car and you pretended to
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 5: be I didn't admit to being a cop, the one
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 5: standing in the in the laneways looking for me, or
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 5: at the petrol stations. You're all not very good, so
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 5: I developed this attitude they're just bokes and you can
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 5: beat them.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: It was the beginning of the end, Yes it was.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: That's the end of park one of this doubleheaded with
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: Peter Morgan. Next time, Peter will talk about his capture
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: and subsequent escape, the bitter realities of life in jail
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighties, and his long standing rivalry with
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: brother Doug. If you have a crime you'd like to report,
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: please call crime Stoppers on one eight hundred, triple three,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: triple zero, or write to me at Adam Shanned writer
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: at gmail dot com. This has been Adam Shann for
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: Real Crime. I look forward to bringing you part two
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: of Peter Morgan's story when next we meet.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to this episode and
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: supporting this story.
• 1:12:37
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• 1:12:41
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• 1:12:44
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• 1:12:47
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• 1:12:51
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• 1:12:56
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