Latest / Pod Therapy / #394: Divorce Ambush, Professional Boundaries, Chronic Depression

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#394: Divorce Ambush, Professional Boundaries, Chronic Depression · Pod Therapy

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I watch it.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, Still the dog is a fun idea.
• 0:04
  Speaker 3: I've heard that he like loses his ship.
• 0:08
  Speaker 4: Where's the dog?
• 0:10
  Speaker 3: Where's my dog?
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Give fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. This is pot therapy, real people,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: real problems, and real therapists. When you used to make
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: your questions anonymously a pot therapyside net or email us
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: a pot therapy guys at gmail dot com. And now
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: broadcaster from the churin. That's the gym. That's Whitney. I'm nick.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: It's time for some pot there. Well, hello everybody.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: As you are hearing this, we're recording it in the
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: past and July fifteenth. Every time they hear this they
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: it was recorded the Also true, but more in the
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: past than you're used to, which means I can share that.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: My weekend plans are to do a little staycation for
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  Speaker 2: the anniversary here. Okay, GV check out the Virgin form
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: hard rock can give that a little try, and uh,
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: maybe go see a show. Have you heard of the
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: show called Emo Night?
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Have you heard about this? No?
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: So it's like a concert where they're just playing all
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: like the two thousands emo pop. Oh my gosh, it
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: sounds pretty fucking I.
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: Think I'm gonna have to go to that.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: Saturday.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: It's gonna be this Saturday, eight o'clock, I can say
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: because every but by the time the audience hears this,
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: it happened a week ago. But yeah, it'll be It'll
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: be pretty fun. So but looking for recommendations, I'm gonna try.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: That one steakhouse would be good.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: No Boo sushi have you ever had that?
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Nobody's very famous? Is it famous? Way it seems like
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: you ring a bell.
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  Speaker 5: It's like there are a couple of No Boos in town,
• 1:30
  Speaker 5: but one of them is at Virgin Yeah, okay, No
• 1:33
  Speaker 5: Boo is you know, super high end Okay, very good
• 1:36
  Speaker 5: Japanese food.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So we're thinking about doing that and then just maybe
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: getting out, like I like.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: To stay at the hotel.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: As we've discussed last week, I do not like to
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: drive anywhere, even in our own city. But maybe go
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  Speaker 2: see something, just something local, like another show or something.
• 1:49
  Speaker 5: I don't know, just you know, what's right across the
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  Speaker 5: street from the Virgin. What is right across the street
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  Speaker 5: from the strip club?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah?
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  Speaker 4: Airport?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah? And where are you telling me?
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  Speaker 2: It's like one of the shadiest shittiest strip clubs.
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  Speaker 1: It's one of the worst ones that I've ever been into.
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  Speaker 4: We always had intrigued, I'm intrigued.
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  Speaker 5: The shadiest one that I ever heard of was in
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  Speaker 5: town and uh they closed after like the second or
• 2:10
  Speaker 5: third deadly stabbing in the parking lot happened like in
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: a single calendar year.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Back in Iowa, we had Big Earl's gold Mine. Oh
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  Speaker 1: in Des Moines, that's not real.
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: Ye.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: When we went on hockey trips in Des Moines, we
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: would always go to Big Girls Are You? And the
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: whole story of like Big Girl like he was he
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: was he was shot on his doorstep. I think my
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: God like was written about Big Earl.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: That's hilarious that the epis there was a strip club
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  Speaker 2: next to me called Broken Promises of It.
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  Speaker 1: I didn't realize how funny that was until years later.
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  Speaker 4: That was probably like the only way they allow a
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  Speaker 4: strip club, like you have to name it like.
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  Speaker 1: That's God, that's fantastic.
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  Speaker 2: Well, hopefully I can come up with some more fun
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  Speaker 2: things to do, because I think that it's when you
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: try to commit to just staying at one hotel, even
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: in Las Vegas, where it's like, you know, I'm gonna
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: do that. I think the pool thing get like a cabana.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: The Virgin seems to be really good price.
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  Speaker 1: There's a good pizza place in the Virgin.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: I okay, so that is a good place. That pizza
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: place is good. Yeah, I had to try some new things.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: I don't want to go on the strip strip, but
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  Speaker 2: the Virgin is like a little off strip. It's not
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  Speaker 2: so far away. You're close enough that you can get
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: to the shows, you can go do fun things.
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  Speaker 5: It's right down the street from the Sphere. If there's
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  Speaker 5: at the Sphere going on, well.
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  Speaker 2: There's Backstreet Boys of the Sphere, yeah, which is sold out.
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  Speaker 2: I totally thought that would be a cool thing to go.
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  Speaker 1: Do.
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  Speaker 4: I know, get tickets, I know, I looked at tickets
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  Speaker 4: so long when they first popped up, I was like,
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  Speaker 4: I should just buy them and even if I can't
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  Speaker 4: go or something, they'll resell for more. And then I
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  Speaker 4: didn't know. I'm kicking myself.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah that that, Yeah, I just stumbled upon that way
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: too late. Like I was starting to see tiktoks of like,
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: oh my god, look at them fucking.
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  Speaker 4: The Sphere, Like, oh my god, that's looks amazing.
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  Speaker 2: And then I saw that it was this weekend. I
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, that would be so cool to do
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  Speaker 2: for the anniversary, and yeah yeah. As soon as I
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: looked it up, it's like, now this is just sold out.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: But then I saw, like this this burlesque thing called
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: the Empire Strips Back. Oh that's great. Okay, So that
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: looks like a pretty keeps over the Rio. Oh it's
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: at the Rio. Okay, that could be fun. Maybe that'd
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: be a thing to do.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: Would have to uber Jim.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: I fucking am not getting another nail on the tire
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: never again. Anyway, Welcome to the show. We've got some
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: great questions for today's episode, and we're leading off the
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: order with best friend is unaware she's getting divorced. Hello,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: Whitney and the boys. Well, whoa woah Whitney.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah boys, Yeah, here's me, Whitney.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: Who here's the background of the situation I find myself in.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: My best friend and I have known each other for
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  Speaker 2: almost thirty years. We met when I was thirteen and
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: she was thirty. I was going through a lot of
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: issues at the time, and she was someone I could
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  Speaker 2: look up to and lean on, and we became very
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  Speaker 2: good friends over the last thirty years of friendship.
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  Speaker 1: We have been in each other's.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Weddings, my husband and I have spent holidays with her family,
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: became like a second mom to her daughter, and have
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: been with her through every high and low. I've also
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: learned that she hid a lot of her personality from
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  Speaker 2: me and many others. She must be the center of attention,
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: does not take criticism well, has a drinking problem, and
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: has been physically and verbally abusive to both her husband
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  Speaker 2: and her daughter. All of this has come to light
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  Speaker 2: now that her daughter is in college and started confiding
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  Speaker 2: in me. I've always noticed how demanding she is of
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: her husband, and I never agreed with how she treated him,
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  Speaker 2: but I never felt it was my place to say anything.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: I've spoken to her husband a couple of times, and
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: his voice is frustration about his relationship. I know he's
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: wanted to leave for years, but was always afraid that
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: she would take their daughter from him. Well, now that
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: isn't a concern anymore, since she is an adult. He
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: has spent the last few months taking the necessary steps
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  Speaker 2: to leave. Bank accounts have been moved, personal items have
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: been packed, and when my friend is not home or
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: when my friend wasn't home and paperwork is ready to
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: be filed. So here is where I find myself. She
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: thinks her life is perfect and that the relationship is great.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: She thinks that he would never leave because quote, he
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: wouldn't survive without me and he would be nothing. I
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  Speaker 2: know the truth. When this goes down, I'm going to
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  Speaker 2: be the one she comes to, and frankly, after everything
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: I've learned in the last two years, I don't even
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: want to be friends with her anymore. I have started
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  Speaker 2: distancing myself over the last two months. The problem is
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know where he is officially filing for divorce
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: or when Sorry, he's officially filing for divorce. So do
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  Speaker 2: I continue to distance itself?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah?
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  Speaker 2: Here, So I do continue distance myself. I do continue
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  Speaker 2: to distance myself and let our friendship? Or do I
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: continue to distance myself and let our friendship end quietly?
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: Do I cut her off now and end it quickly?
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  Speaker 2: Do I stick it out and help her deal with
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  Speaker 2: the aftermath? Do I change my adea entity and go
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: into witness protection?
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Signed Mama Ninja Scoop, Hey, MoMA Ninja Scoop. That is
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: an interesting situation.
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  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, Okay, dirty laundry coming thirteen and thirty,
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: that's interesting.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, became friends when I was thirteen and she was thirty.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: I mean I could see a situation where it's like,
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  Speaker 2: I know you and you are cool older girl that
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  Speaker 2: I mean, thirty is not a girl, but like person
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  Speaker 2: who is nice to me and treats me nicely. Five
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  Speaker 2: short years later, I'm an adult and stay in touch
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: and we stay in touch forever.
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  Speaker 5: That didn't raise anything for me. Okay, I grew up
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  Speaker 5: like in that very much. In that, Like, I had
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  Speaker 5: a lot of what I definitely would have just called
• 7:43
  Speaker 5: like adult friends.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Okay, uh and like thirteen year old friends. But currently yeah,
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: that's exactly what I was getting to.
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  Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, when I was thirteen, I had a lot
• 7:52
  Speaker 5: of these people that I would have called adult friends.
• 7:54
  Speaker 5: Looking back at it now, they wouldn't have said, oh,
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  Speaker 5: I have this child friends. They would have been like,
• 7:59
  Speaker 5: here's this kid. I know, I like this kid, this
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  Speaker 5: kid likes me. Yeah, like around right. I definitely would
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  Speaker 5: have said that when I was thirteen. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 5: And like a lot of those people became my friends
• 8:11
  Speaker 5: when I got older. But like I from the writer's
• 8:15
  Speaker 5: point of view.
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm thinking of that.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: Uh yeah with Robert de Niro and his son is
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: like in the mob and he's just a little boy
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: and like he becomes friends with the mobsters.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Is Midnight Run? Is that it? Maybe I haven't seen that?
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: Okay, for sure, great fucking movie. You think he's gonna
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: drive me crazy?
• 8:35
  Speaker 5: Now?
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: I see clips of it all the time. Rob doesn't
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: play a prominent role. He's just the dad and he
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: drives a bus and the mob is like in the
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: town chess pulmonary.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, uh, what's chess prolmentary? Is huge movie? Did he
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: did he? Yeah?
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: Okay?
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: And the kids like a weird name like plar Ogeo
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: or something like that, and little boy like makes friends
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: with the mob and they keep him around and he's
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: just allowed to fucking hang out with the mob and
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: they're just all sitting there and he like brings him drinks, you.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Know, and then he ends up joining the promary. Uh, bronxtail,
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: now that's it. Bronxtail. Yeah, thank you.
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: Don't look at me like that way.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: What was the question?
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: Oh?
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So okay, barring the.
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  Speaker 2: Weird fact that a thirteen year old was hanging out
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  Speaker 2: with a thirty year old fine, but like a lifetime
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: of friendship and your friend's about to go through this
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: horrible divorce, and like you've learned all these terrible facts
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: about like the way they treat their family and stuff,
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: and like the kind of person that they are. But
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: I can understand why you'd feel a sense of like debt, right,
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: Like I've been through all the highs and lows.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: You've been there for me.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: Should I stick around and be the one person who
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: can tolerate you and like be close to you whenever
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: you lose your family?
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: My thoughts are, and this is if you are really
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: flying on like this high plane where you can keep
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: your composure and not get too sucked in to it.
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: But I feel like you stick around, sit back and
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: watch the husband files for divorce. Whenever that happens, your
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: friend freaks the fuck out. She's like, oh my gosh,
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: I can't believe he's doing this. I say, maybe sit
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: with that for a minute. I mean, if you're friends,
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: if you really have been friends for thirty years, yea.
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: And as she starts to like maybe bash him or
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: go off on things, I think that's where I'd push
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: back a little personally, and be like sure, well, I mean,
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: do you think he has any like what's the word
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: I'm trying to say, like, does he have a leg
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: to stand on here? Like any of the.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: Valand friend mirror a little bit y, honey.
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: You know, And if I wouldn't normally give this advice,
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: if you had like a very I don't know a
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: different relationship with this friend, or if you were like, oh,
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: I just feel so bad for them. They're getting excided
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: like I would.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: We're not trying to correct them correct Yeah.
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think just because of this situation and how
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: you described this friend being not very kind, caring, compassion, like,
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: maybe try and hold that mirror up a little, especially
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: if you yourself are like I don't even know if
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: I want to be friends with them. I think it's
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: fair to be like, all right, I'm going to give
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: you this one last shot, like in the dark.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's almost some devil may care about it because
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: it's like, well, I was ready to end our friendship anyway,
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: so as a last courtesy, I might try to offer
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: you insight and help you grow. And if you can't
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: handle that or you're not ready for it, okay, then
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: that can be our exit, it'll kind.
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: Of actually fall anyway, because if she get pissed off
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: at you, then it's like, Okay, I think.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: You just like drama, Whitney. I think you just you're
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: for it.
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: Name Wow, how sexist, Jim? Is it because I'm a woman.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: I think it's because you like drama?
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: That's I do love all the real housewives.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: She's here. I don't think any ever buried anymore.
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I know. I don't even know why they or
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: they're self made.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: That checks out right, self made housewives.
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: So yeah, that's my go to is like maybe like
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: sit with it, because she's your friend, you can owe
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: her that maybe, and then confront Okay, yeah, I mean it.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: Kind of just depends on what your long term goal
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: is with this, Like are you wanting to salvage this
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: relationship or not? Are you ready to just let it go?
• 12:08
  Speaker 6: You know?
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, dude, it's kind of a nice spot to be
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: in in that sense, because like you've got nothing to lose.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: True, you know, I worry that the writer and again,
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: I'm sure we can trust that the writer has thought
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: this through. They're not being you know, spontaneous with it.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: I get a little bit nervous because if you're only
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: hearing the side of the spouse who's gonna leave your friend,
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: and he's confiding in you a lot, and like you're
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: starting to learn more about her dirty laundry. I don't know,
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: depending upon what you're learning. I do get a little
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: bit nervous because I could see it being like, hey,
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: you're getting all this download of this person who's going
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: to exit a relationship. There's two sides at every story, sure,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: but at the same time, the writer kind of references
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: like there's been physical abuse, and like if the eighteen
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: year old girl is telling you like, hey, you're my
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: mom's best friend, my mom abuses me, you know, and
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: if the husband is opening up too and being like, yo,
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: I'm abused, and this is something we don't talk enough about.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: But it's a story that I've seen a bunch in
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: and you know, my time as a therapist, there are
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: a lot of men who are the victims of domestic
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: violence and it's really really shameful, and they can't talk
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: about it because it is immediately seen as pathetic or
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: the immediate assumption is I'm sure there's more to the story.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: I'm sure she was defending herself. I'm sure, you're difficult,
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: and it really is hard because society will say that
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: with a straight face, but we don't do that the
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: other way around. Whenever a woman walking around the black
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: I were like, but what did you say to him? Like, no,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: you are the bad guy in every movie. That is
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: a monster fucking thing to do. But we will do
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: that to men.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they really don't like when you say that. Yeah,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: they dislike it very much. Frowns stopped you, Jacob.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: I want to ask the hard question, what are you hiding?
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: It's like my buddy Jim jobs every story, bitch, what
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: did you do? But who raised him? Yeah? So I
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: don't know.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Like, and again I can understand the writers saying, hey, look,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: i've heard some things that are irredeemable. I've heard I've
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: heard some things that like, I don't care what your
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: side of the story is, like you're beating your daughter,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: or you're, you know, an alcoholic at the house or whatever,
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: and like, I just want these people to get away
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: from you, and I want to get away from you.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: So I don't think you owe your friend anything in
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: that regard. But I guess it's always difficult because as
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: a therapist, you hear an awful lot of stories and
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: then later you discover that that was one human's pain, right,
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: And there's a lot more going on that you're not
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: aware of.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: So doesn't justify things. But yeah, I don't know, it's perspective.
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: I guess I have a heard time too. I mean
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: I appreciate what Jacob said, like from his perspective if
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: he were thirteen, like befriending a thirty year old, that
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: feels like that perspective. But I wonder if this friend
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: at thirty was like, I'm going to befriend this thirteen
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: year old. To me, that also just gives me a
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: lot of information that sort of backs up with the
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: writer is noticing about like controlling behaviors, you know, just
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: like a personality.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Type that I'm like, it's interesting, Yeah, that you would think.
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: I'm not gonna blame it, Yeah, say that's what's happening,
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: but it just makes me think about that.
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that was my experience having you know,
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: adult friends or whatever, but like that's not everyone's.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: That might not be the writer. I was just saying,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: like it didn't raise alarm bells in my head because
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: of my experience.
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: But yeah, but that does make sense I hadn't thought
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: about it, like oh, yeah from a third year older,
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: like that's my friend because I tell them stuff.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Or I'd be.
• 15:23
  Speaker 5: Curious, like if she wrote a letter in would she
• 15:26
  Speaker 5: refer to her thirteen year old friend.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: When she was thirty?
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: That's what I'm wondering.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she'd probably be like I knew her when she
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: was a girl and we reconnected later or whatever it is,
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: or like yeah, she was a great kid.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: There's a part of my brain that thinks if I
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: were in this situation and I was honestly looking at
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: this person and I was like, I really have grown
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: to dislike this person. I think our friendship has come
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: to a natural end. I'm upset, I'm disgusted by what
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: they're doing. Yep, there's a part of me that thinks
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: I'm going to get the fuck off this train before
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: it crashes. I don't want to be the last person
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: to touch the hot potato, you know, like this guy
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: going to divorce you, he owes you nothing. The daughter
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: wants away from you, she owes you nothing. I'm the
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: next closest person, and I don't know that I want
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: to be the person having to pick up the shattered
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: pieces or feel cold hearted to you when you're coming
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: to me in that broken state. And if I know
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: it's coming and I'm done with our relationship, I don't
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: know I can I can kind of justify the whole
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: cutting somebody off.
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, what do you do? Are you just ghosting them?
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: Because it's like a hard conversation of like, hey, I
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: love you, We've been like family all these years, but
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: I honestly feel like I've come to the end of
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: our friendship.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: Do you think there needs to be an action?
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: I think so because I think after this event goes down,
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: after the divorce, the assumption is I can now go
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: to you we're friends. Like if I got a divorce tomorrow,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: I would be calling friends I haven't talked to in months,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: and because where we left it is we are close friends.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: And I would be suddenly going back to like my
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: college roommate and being like, I'm broken, I need I
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: need my closest friends right now. And he might be thinking, bro,
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: we don't talk anymore because I gave up on this.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: But like, I was never notified. So when I'm in
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: that crisis, I'm going to be bringing my broken self
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: to that person looking for support. So part of me thinks,
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: if you fucking know it's coming, go ahead and cut
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: that string now. That way, they don't even try to
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: like come tip.
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: Over the divorce is even mentioned.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: You're saying like, hey, Mominja says like, do I cut
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: this off now for the tragedy.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Mom and Ninja just got to divorce her before
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: she gets There's a part of me that's like, it's
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: the last one at the table has to pay the check.
• 17:30
  Speaker 5: Yes, somebody's got to deal with this if you divorce
• 17:34
  Speaker 5: her first. Yes, her husband is gonna be so mad
• 17:36
  Speaker 5: at you.
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because then she's going to be going to the yep,
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: like what a bitch that.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's the reason not to do it. Yes,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: it's real funny though.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: I think you just steal her husband. I think that's
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: the move, and then you're both out of there at
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: the same time, nice and clean. You said the kid's eighteen, right, Yeah,
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: the kid. Oh, be friends with the kid, that's it them. Yeah,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: I'm good befriend your mom and I became.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: Friends right around this stage.
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Raise the daughter as your own leave her.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, how we create the joker. This person is
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: going to snap.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Well, thanks everybody, and when we come back, we're gonna
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: be with some other stuff. You're listening there.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Not terrible advice, not terrible. Yeah, I think you're justified, writer.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: I think you're justified cutting this person off. I mean,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: it's shitty whenever they don't see it coming, and like
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: you're learning that they're a terrible person and you really
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: disapprove of the way they're treating everybody.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: And I assume you did. Did that come out in
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: the letter?
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: Did did the writer say, look, I'm treated poorly in
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: this relationship and she just said, like this person hid
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: their personality.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: They're kind of a shitty person.
• 18:50
  Speaker 5: This this kind of happened to me. It was not
• 18:53
  Speaker 5: a close friend, but a person that I knew that
• 18:57
  Speaker 5: I didn't think much of. You know, I thought I
• 19:00
  Speaker 5: thought he was a perfectly fine guy. I just didn't
• 19:02
  Speaker 5: think about him very often at all for pretty reason. Uh.
• 19:05
  Speaker 5: And like one day he showed up and his wife
• 19:09
  Speaker 5: had left divorce papers in his car. In those divorce papers,
• 19:15
  Speaker 5: it was you know, here is the name and phone
• 19:16
  Speaker 5: number of my attorney. That's who you contact if you
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: want to speak to me. The children are with me.
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: They'll be you know, we're doing protective custody and all
• 19:24
  Speaker 5: this stuff. Oh, I had the judge and like had
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: all the ducks in the row and had it ready
• 19:28
  Speaker 5: to go. Whoa, and like I found out that this
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: person who was getting the boot was not a terribly
• 19:35
  Speaker 5: great person on the backside of his divorce. Yeah, but yeah,
• 19:39
  Speaker 5: I would have been kind of fascinating to like know
• 19:42
  Speaker 5: all of the ins and outs and and like know
• 19:44
  Speaker 5: it was all coming.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: I don't.
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: I don't completely disagree with Mom and Ninja here, Like
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: this is a weird place to be and it's also
• 19:52
  Speaker 5: weird information to have because it's almost like the information
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: was almost voyeuristic. Yeah, you're learning something about someone's life
• 19:59
  Speaker 5: that should Yeah, you don't have a reason to know that.
• 20:02
  Speaker 5: You don't have you don't have an organic reason to
• 20:04
  Speaker 5: have learned this information. So it is a little add
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: place to be. On that being said, I'm totally with
• 20:11
  Speaker 5: James over there.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: I'd be out that was the.
• 20:13
  Speaker 6: Last episode, that's right, Miche Fitness Michelle, I wish that
• 20:21
  Speaker 6: you would label yourself as fitness con at your website.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: Do it? No, But I think you bring up a
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: good point, Jacob, because I feel like if you know
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: this much information about my life and you're my friend
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: and you've been conspiring with my spouse and planning like
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: this exit and conspiring with my child, and like you
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: know that this freight trains coming our friendship.
• 20:45
  Speaker 5: Is I think the line has been drawn. I didn't
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: even think about it from that. Yes, the action has
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: been taking action already. Aren't friends anymore? Your your ex
• 20:56
  Speaker 5: friend just doesn't know it yet.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: You're you're asking yourself whether you want to continue the charade. Yeah, exactly, right,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: at some point you're the bad everard, you know. Yeah,
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: it's time to just acknowledge it's over already.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: I agree with James.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, uh great, I'll take the win. But yeah, no,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: I mean that's where I would kind of come at it, right,
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: because like, if you get to the other side of
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: this divorce at some point, you know, when the husband
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: has nothing else to lose and he's starting to just
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: air his dirty launder. The daughter is no longer afraid.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, both of them are impressed by your friend,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: and like they're starting to lash out, they're gonna mention
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: and we've told mom and Ninja scoop all of this,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: and she thinks you're a bitch too, and like, yeah, no,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: the relationship's over.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're done.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: It's already dead, you know, that's just that day is
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: just coming.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: Is what do you want to do?
• 21:43
  Speaker 5: And do you want to tell her about it before
• 21:45
  Speaker 5: that day happens or do you want her to find
• 21:47
  Speaker 5: out that you all aren't friends on that day?
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Which honestly, both are valid, Both are fine. It's gonna
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: think there's a right or wrong answer there.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: There's no way that the relationship gets to persist beyond
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: this unless there's some huge apologetic tour of like, oh
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: my god, I'm so sorry I knew this and I
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: didn't tell you about it because I didn't think it
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: was my But it doesn't sound like that's where your
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: heart's at. You're not trying to care that, you know, keep.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: It sounds like a big event is going to have
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: to happen to change that.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: I feel like it's already over, So I feel like
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: going for the rip the band aid off is a
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: logical move.
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and kind of like going back through the question,
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: the number one line that stands out to me is
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: just them saying I don't even want to be friends
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: with her. Anymore. Yeah, Like, yeah, you'all are right, Yes, cool, Like,
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: that's it. You've said what you want. I don't think
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: you owe that to her if you just don't want
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: to be friends with someone.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: But the next move I think after that becomes if
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: you've reached that conclusion logically, you've tested that conclusion with
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: people in your circle, hopefully your own partner, your own family,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: random podcast people you know, and you've gotten this feedback
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: and you feel secure in it. That doesn't like I
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: don't want you to underestimate how difficult it will still
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: be because there's going to be an emotional divorce.
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: All she goes the witness protection program, right, can't help?
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's always that.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, But like, honestly, whenever you've been friends with somebody
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: your whole adult life and some of your childhood, and
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: like you've been so enmeshed in their world, You've you've
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: become a second mother to their kid. You're so close
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: to them that their spouse confides in you, and like,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: it's even if you tell that person I don't want
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: to be friends anymore, it's going to be like removing
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: a part of yourself, like they have been so intertwined
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: in your truth and your reality, the keeper of your
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: secrets too, the dryer of your tears. And even if
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: you know it's time to end that relationship and you
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: feel absolutely like you're on the high ground on this,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: I just want to point out that does not make
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: it easy. So there will still be grieving and mourning
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: and a lot of bad process that goes through this
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: removal and exciting them out.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Of your life.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: And I just want you to prepare for that, and
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: I want to normalize that because even if you're like, no,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: this person's an absolute monster and I've realized their monster,
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: I don't want them around. Okay, Again, your brain can
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: reach that conclusion of you, it's going to hurt like
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: a motherfucker. So you know, I just think you just
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: need to keep that in mind too, because that make
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: that in other situations, I've seen that cause people to
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: keep reverting back right and they keep progressing. We see
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: this in marriages a lot where it's like this is
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: a toxic person, the abusive to you, Why do you
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: keep going back? And it's like it's familiar. They can't
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: help themselves, Like that person feels like home to me.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: When I'm hurting, I go back to them. So doing
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: that personal work mom Andinja, I think is going to
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: be vital for you to follow through on this action
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: once you've made that decision to go through them. It's
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: a tough one though, but hey, you know, way to
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: take the high end of this and try to be
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: supportive of good people in this. I'm sorry you're going
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: through it. It's sad, it's scary. I'm sorry you're going
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: to lose a long term friend. I think there's nothing
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: here to celebrate. Even if you do feel like completely
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: convinced this person is a monster. I no longer want
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: to associate with them. I have all these reasons. I
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: don't even get anything out of our friendship. All that notwithstanding,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: it is still going to be very hard and so
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry that you're going to go through this. It
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: is a really sad thing. I'm also glad to hear
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: that your other friend, her husband, is going to liberate himself.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: I think that that's an important thing, and to support
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: him where you can and support her daughter. I think
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: that's a great place for you to be if that's
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: something you can stomach to do and not be in
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: the blast radius of your toxic friends.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: So I good luck with that.
• 25:08
  Speaker 5: Said something about earlier too, I actually might consider the
• 25:12
  Speaker 5: husband and daughter's state a little bit before breaking up
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: with your friend. Yeah, what's most helpful for them? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: good point if you talk about that earlier. But yeah,
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: like that actually might be a real thing. That's a
• 25:24
  Speaker 5: good point. Yeah, yeah, asking them you might It might
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: It might genuinely not matter to you. I don't know,
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: but it might be something to keep in the back
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: of your head.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: Ask them.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: You're already conspiring with jam you already know all the things,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: so to visit with them first and say, hey, I
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: also think I don't want to continue this friendship, but
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: I don't want to make my move before you've had
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: an opportunity to evacuate. So she can't hurt me anymore.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: She can hurt both of you. So what do you
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: need from me? I think that's a really good way
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: to get some guides. It's not your responsibility, it's not
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: your job to take care of them.
• 25:56
  Speaker 5: But at the same time, like, if that's something that
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: you can easily, you know, just have a conversation about,
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: that might be a nice thing.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: You seem invested, you know, And so you consider the
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: daughter to be you know yours, So good luck on
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: this friend, and definitely give us a follow up letter
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: at some point because this is juicy gossip and we
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: must know more hot goss, hot goss.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: We are taking a quick break.
• 26:15
  Speaker 5: If the daughter wants to be friends with several older people,
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: think about joining our patriots m slash therapy.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: You can right over to the discord. Yeah, and talk
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: with all kinds of adult people. Yeah, we do ask
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: that she be eighteen or older, or just tell us
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: that she is.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: That's fine.
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: Check.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Nobody's trying to fuck this person. Okay, we're trying to
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: be friends. You could be platonically friends for eighteen year
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: old girls. You're making it weird your.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Why do you make it weird? Anyway, We're gonna take
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: a break in.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: When we come back, we're talking about confidence and rule
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: setting in therapy.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: You're listening to pod therapy. Today's episode is brought to
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: you by Robert Brownie is Junior Men's Little Landsbury, Kevin Chamberlain,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: Ben Stanley, Adam Hathaway, Dan martinib Hey Yo, Andrew laying Me,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Chad Bag and keep the La price. I think uncle, Uncle,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: would you like sponsor show of course you would become
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: a therap producer at patreon dot com slash therapy. Will
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: you yep? Alright, here we go. Uh you all get
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: to play all the same time. Here? Okay, are we
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: buzzing into something? Nope? Okay, all get a guess. These
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: are all fifty fifties all right? Okay, so their music albums.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: All you have to do is identify which of the
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: two was released first.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: Jacob's gonna fucking smoke us?
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Maybe not? Maybe not? Okay, here we go. First one,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: the Bodyguard soundtrack.
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: With the White.
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: Guard.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: What was the big song on that one? And okay
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: or never Mind from Nirvana? Oh boy?
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: Which one was first? Is that?
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Yep? Which one was released?
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: I'll take Nirvana as the oldest.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: One, so the one that was that was first? Play
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: the game. I don't know the right words Bodyguard. Okay,
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: damn fitty.
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: I would have said Nirvana, but now if we're wrong,
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: I'll stupid flying. I'm gonna say Nirvana.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: It is Nirvana.
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: Yes, I don't have to build stupid.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Bodygut. Bodyguard soundtrack November seventeenth and ninety two. Never Mind
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: was September twenty fourth of ninety one.
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: Wow, that was way closer. I thought that way Wow,
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: I thought, yeah, Bodyguard.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: I think the rest of these I spaced out a
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: little bit. Okay, the first one was a little I
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: was pretty close on Bodyguard. That was all right. Also
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: never mind okay, Metallica's Black album m or music Box
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: by Mariah Carey. Oh boy, Mariah Carey music Box. This
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: is the one that had hero watchrr watch me as.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: That's how you know it's Christmas. Okay, when you hear
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Mariah Carey orgasm.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: There's gonna be three weeks of winter.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: Mariah Riah couldn't finish.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: Alright, I'm gonna take I'll bet you the Mariah Carey
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: came out first.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, what was the other person Metallica's Black album? Was
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: that the paint when painted black was on that album?
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: That's insane and one that's that was not.
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: That is.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: You really think he is?
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: I think Metallica's first.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, I also think Metallica's first. Metallica was first. That
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: one came out in August of ninety one. Music Box
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: was in August of ninety three.
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: Should be noted. I'm winning this game, so I got
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: to hold on while I can because I don't think
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: it will.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Last for one for two? All right, what's the story
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Morning Glory Oasis' album or Shania Twains. Come on, over
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Come On, over, Come on over baby, I will say, Okay,
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: it's been who's hard to you? One day?
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: Oasis? Which one's older the ones? I think Oasis?
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, two one long I'm serenading you like your guest.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, wrongs, last one in syncs no strings attached or
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Amy Wine Houses back to black Oosh.
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: I'm going last on this one, and not that I mean.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: To rehab, but I said no, No, I think you're
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: first on this one. Jimmy, I'll take in sync. Okay,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: that was such a bye bye bye bye bye. Did
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: you see the tiktoks where Lance from uh in Sync
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: went to the Backstreet Boys concert at the Sphere?
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: No, I love Lance here an awesome like.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: It's really really cute how they did it.
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: Which one was first? I think in sync?
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: In sync? Yeah?
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: One?
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: Wrong?
• 31:48
  Speaker 5: No?
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Four? Four four?
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: I'm two for four one one, Okay, it's a close game.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Move on, hurry before what happened that I'm going to
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: crush the game? Yeah?
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: Exactly?
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, these are hard though, and fifty confidence and rules
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: shut away confidence in role setting in therapy high team.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: I hope everyone is doing well. I'm a relatively long
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: term listener, thirty two year old male pronounser he and
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: him and a new subscriber, and I've been mulling a
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: question for a while that i'd love your input on.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: I'm a provisionally licensed professional counselor called a LGPC, working
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: predominantly with first responder patients in law enforcement, paramedics, et
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: cetera in a group practice setting since October of last year.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: I've gained a ton of experience across these past few
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: months and can identify several areas of improvement in my
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: therapeutic skills. But one area that I consistently feel uncertain
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: about is having the confidence to establish, maintain, and enforce
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: boundaries or rules within sessions with clients. For example, I
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: have some clients who will take phone calls or read
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: an answer text while in session while I patiently wade
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: across from them for them to finish. While I sit
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: there waiting for them, I often find myself thinking that
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: I should say something or tell them to focus on
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: the session, but I never feel like I have the
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: confidence to actually confront them. On the one hand, some
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: of my patients are on call when attending sessions unlikely
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: do need to be available for contact. But on the
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: other hand, the interruptions often do negatively affect therapeutic progress.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Another example I can provide revolves around our late cancelation
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: and no show policy, in which we request twenty four
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: hour advanced notice. Several times my clients have canceled late
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: or no showed because they were responding to a call
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: late in their work shift or in those cases I
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: won't and in those cases I won't charge them for
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: the missed appointment. But I am now starting to sense
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: that my clients are stretching that policy because of my
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: lenient enforcement, and I'm not getting paid for that lost time.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Considering that you are all seasoned practitioners, what tips or
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: device would you give a new therapist in establishing and
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: enforcing rules for therapis thanks in advance the train guy.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: So sounds like, shoot, thank you for being a listener
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: and a new subscriber. Yeses, it sounds like am I
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: getting this right? That he is working in like a
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: private practice group practice almost exclusively with first responders.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a tough one. It is tough because
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: I'm so I don't have a good example as far
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: as boundaries within clinical practice because I've always worked for organizations, right,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: And in that sense, it's it feels a lot easier
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: to set boundaries because I'm working with groups of people
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of times, and so it's not just about Hey,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: this isn't about respecting me. This is about respecting your
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: the program, the other yeah, the program, the group, all
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: the other folks.
• 34:45
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: So I'm I'm strict on that sense, and I don't
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: have any problem enforcing those boundaries. However, as a personal trainer.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: Like fitness Consigliaro, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome, I have.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: The ability to charge clients for sessions when they cancel
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: at the last minute, okay, because I still have to
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: drive to the gym myself to be there. I got it.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm not getting paid for that hour now. Yeah,
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: I've never done it, okay, because to me, it's more
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: important to me to maintain rapport. Yeah, and to and
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: so that's more important to me. I'll take the hit. Right.
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: Wait, You've never like if someone it's like five am,
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: they're like, I overslept, you don't charge their card.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: He just works out furiously.
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: Okay, oh wait continue, Yeah, come back.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: To me, see the disgust in your face, boundaries.
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: We're gonna teach you how to do this today. Nick.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm actually really glad that Whitney is already leaning
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: in that direction because I'm I'm like you and so
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: like I. And this is also so I do want
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: to validate for a second that first responders as a population,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: this is very typical.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, and I have the same exact.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: Problem, like if I work with e ER docs, e
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: m ts, firefighters, cops and like, as a professional courtesy
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: anybody in a healthcare profession or in first responders, I
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: don't tell them that I will be lean on the rules.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: But when they inevitably text me and say I'm so
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: sorry I got called in there was a bad thing
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: that happened or whatever.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Can I reschedule? I will try.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: I'll try my best to do it, and then if
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: it comes down to just having to take the hit,
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: I will. And but that's I can afford to do it, like,
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: because that's not my only client. Tell if that was,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: it would be hard because they cancel all the fucking time,
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: and a lot of times. To their credit, a lot
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: of them will say, especially if they're in healthcare, They're like, yo,
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: I know the rules. I'm part of this life too.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: I will be paying my bill ye and I'll tell
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: you know, like as a courtesy. I'm like, it's cool, like,
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: don't worry about it, like we're on the the dance.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: In fact, we are very similar, and so I get it,
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Like I also know how that is. And I get
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: emergency calls too, and there's been times I've had to
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: cancel things, so like I understand that first responders. They,
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: to their credit, most of them have always said like, hey,
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: I I know the drill, I know what I signed
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: up for. I read that policy very carefully. Not my
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: first rodeo. I will, you know, please send me the invoice,
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: and like I choose not to write. And it comes
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: down to rapport building I think is part of it.
• 37:14
  Speaker 6: For me.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: It also comes down to that makes me feel good
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: because like I feel like that's me contributing to society
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: because it's like a cop. I'm giving a cop a break,
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm giving an EMT a break. Yeah, they're
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: gonna go. They had to cancel with me, so they
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: could go save a bad you know what, I don't
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: know what they're going into right or I.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I had a flat tire in La Hooya.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know a hero that person sounds like whoever
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: that that handsome man that you're describing was, I'm sure
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: he was having a very hard day and does very
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: good things for the community. So I'm I'm kind of
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: like on the writer's side where I'm a bad example
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: because I will also struggle to enforce that policy with
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: first responders and healthcare providers. But truthfully, I don't do
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: well enforcing this policy in general, and a lot of
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: it comes down here. I know, a lot of it
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: does come down to like trying to preserve the relationship
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: and like unless somebody abuses it, once they start abusing it.
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, when does that happen?
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: And that's happened. That's absolutely happened. Where it's like they
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: just keep canceling, you know, and they short cancel or whatever,
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: and like, depending on the situation, it's like I'll usually
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: tell them and we've talked about this in the show before,
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: but one policy maneuver that I'll do is when they
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: first do this, I'll let them know, Hey, this first one,
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: I totally understand it happens.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: I get it.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: But because this spot was taken, somebody else couldn't take this.
• 38:35
  Speaker 5: Spot and said his thing like, yeah, just because you're
• 38:39
  Speaker 5: not in a in a you know, a group run
• 38:42
  Speaker 5: facility or the type of thing that Nick was talking about.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Yo, you can still definitely say you can't.
• 38:48
  Speaker 5: I'm betting there aren't enough slots in your program there right.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: For all the people that are trying to to get help.
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: Uh, you know, that's just usually a safe assumption I
• 38:59
  Speaker 5: think in these in these scenarios, Yeah, yeah, you can just.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Just listen, genuinely be and truthfully. That's how I justify it.
• 39:06
  Speaker 5: You just don't like someone else wants this spot. Yeah,
• 39:09
  Speaker 5: when I'm terrible, like they're fucked.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: I don't like to bring up to the client because
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: I've seen other therapists very indelicately bring up things like
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: I need to get paid or something that, and I
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: don't like that language. It shines too bright of a
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: light on the reality that I am also a professional
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: healthcare provider, and it distracts you from the work I
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: want you to do. So I try to hide that,
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: and I'll usually say it more subtly like it. I
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: don't bring up me getting paid, but I'll say something
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: the effect of like my wife is a bitch. She's
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: a bit, she's gonna, she's gonna, she's gonna eat this money.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Man. She shakes me down.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: No, but it's like, okay, look, I'm sorry, Like you're
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: taking up a spot that other people were requesting. I
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: do get texts every morning where somebody says, if anything
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: opens up, please let me know. If I can fill
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: that spot, you're good, but if I can't, I am
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: gonna have to bill you. And and that's just about
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: keeping spaces open for people that need that.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: And if you want to do a courtesy, you could
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: do like I'll do the first one. The first one.
• 40:01
  Speaker 5: I'll give you a courtesy on that one. And I
• 40:04
  Speaker 5: was gonna say also like like for instance, in your
• 40:06
  Speaker 5: First Responders, James, when when people come to you and
• 40:10
  Speaker 5: and say, you know, like hey, I wasn't able to
• 40:11
  Speaker 5: get in, uh you know, but please please build me
• 40:15
  Speaker 5: for it. Yeah, you could even you know your practice
• 40:18
  Speaker 5: is to turn around and say I'm not going to
• 40:19
  Speaker 5: bill you for it, let's just do better.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: But I could I could just say okay.
• 40:24
  Speaker 5: Also an equally acceptable response would be like, hey, I
• 40:26
  Speaker 5: appreciate that. Uh, hey, I will I will cut you
• 40:29
  Speaker 5: a little a little deal though. I do this for
• 40:31
  Speaker 5: some people in the in the industry, kind of an industry.
• 40:34
  Speaker 5: Uh uh, you know, I'm doing you a favor. It's
• 40:37
  Speaker 5: only a half bill.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: Right, and just remember me, if I come to your hospital, Kip,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: that's a lot. I'll give you a half bill.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: On this session. You cut my medical bill in half.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: That's whatever needs to do the quadruple bypass. Yeah. Yeah,
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: so I don't know.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: So that's how I manage it. I want to circle
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: around in a second and talk about session etiquette. Uh,
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: with the phones and stuff, but how do you handle this?
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: What are your feels on this?
• 40:59
  Speaker 6: Yeah?
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: With the billing, I definitely do what you mentioned, Jim,
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: giving a courtesy first cancelation. I have this issue working
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: with insurance. Here's what I get told. I don't know
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: if I've shared this on here before or not, but
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: what I will get told is, oh, you know what,
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: I can't make it, but go ahead and bill still
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: you insurance?
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like commit fraud? Go ahead.
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, They're like, just go ahead and bill it. It's fine,
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: Like you know, it's fine, like it's their decision. I'm like,
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: oh yeah. So that's when I come back with the Hey,
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: normally there's a cancelation feed that is the cost of
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: your what I charge or what we agreed upon with insurance.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: It's not the copey, it's what the insurance would usually.
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: Yes, and so, and I do give a lot of
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: leeway because I know, right because I do have.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: Question, you'll get fifteen bucks.
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: I do have a lot of younger women that I
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: meet with and young men. But like a lot of
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: younger women, they will they don't know. They are just like, oh,
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: they don't understand how these things work. And so it's like,
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: oh no, and they they might think, yeah, clocks right,
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: and they might think like, oh, I'll just owe my copay.
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: And so then I make it clear that typically if
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: I do charge those late cancelations, it will be the
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: cost of what your insurance pays. I tell them what
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: that is, this is what that looks like. But you know,
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: I know, things happen like you get this one break whatever,
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: or you get a break.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: Now, so this time, will let it go be advised
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: in the future of it happens again.
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: I do have to bill you that number, yes, and
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: sometimes what I will do, Like I have a client
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: that I worked with recently. They had a lot, they
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: had a high needs child, and I'm like, you can't
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: predict those things like things, so I was much more leaning.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: Oh my god.
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: But yes, I try and be very lenient with her
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: because I know there's already a lot on her plate.
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: You know, I'm therapy isn't here to add more stress.
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: But I'm telling you, like nine times out of ten,
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: like I will have that response like, hey, I I
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: stayed out late last night. I'm not going to make
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: it in today when I was doing in person, like
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: you know, I'm not going to make it in today,
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: or oh I forgot I'm out of town this week
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: or something like that. I know you still have to
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: have to bill me, And I'm like, okay, thanks to
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: let me know, Yeah, I will this time, have a
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: good time on your thing whatever. Like I keep it
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: very casual, and I have found that it really usually
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: does not, especially if they're the ones mentioning that I
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: know you got to bill me.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: That helps a lot.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: It really doesn't hurt our report doesn't seem like it does.
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: They come in the next week I've done that with
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: personal training before, where like I was having my own
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: like get a little mental breakdown from my own shit
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: going on, Like I'm not going to the gym to
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: I'm not going to go beat my trainer and just
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: be crying for half the time, Like, yeah, I got
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: to cancel today and charge my card. Yeah, the like
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: ninety bucks or whatever it is, I just charge it.
• 43:50
  Speaker 5: And also, like we're talking about first responders and different
• 43:53
  Speaker 5: people like knowing the ropes and saying like, oh, you
• 43:56
  Speaker 5: have to charge me for this, I like the half delay.
• 43:58
  Speaker 5: Everybody knows about this, right, everyone understands what an appointment is. Yeah,
• 44:03
  Speaker 5: I'm not a doctor. Well I am a doctor. Yeah,
• 44:06
  Speaker 5: I'm not a medical doctor. Correct, I'm a PhD.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Neither was I not right?
• 44:11
  Speaker 5: And uh, you know, as someone who is not a
• 44:13
  Speaker 5: medical doctor, when I make a doctor's appointment and if
• 44:16
  Speaker 5: I know show for that doctor's appointment, I understand that
• 44:18
  Speaker 5: I'm inconveniencing professionals. Right, I under say that I'm inconvenient.
• 44:23
  Speaker 5: That's like I don't have to be in their industry
• 44:26
  Speaker 5: to know that not no showing for an appointment is
• 44:30
  Speaker 5: an inconvenience, right, possibly even rude, depending on what the circumstances.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: And I think what we're all doing for you, writer,
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: is normalizing that. It does feel weird that our first
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: instinct is to just be kind and be you know,
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: that's why we got into this professions. We care about
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: these folks and we admire them. They're they're out there
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: doing hard things and we really want to support them,
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: and we're really glad that they're getting help. But we're
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: also trying to instill a little bit of that confidence.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: Here's how you do this, Like, here's how as a
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: veteran professional will say these words. Here's how we'll say, Hey,
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: the first I'm gonna let this one go, so don't
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: worry about it, no pressure, but f YI, in the future,
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: here's how I do this. And you can use my
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: language of because we do have to know in advance
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: that we can fill that spot, or you can use
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: Whitney's language of hey, I do have to build insurance
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: or in this case, I can't bill insurance. But you know,
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: our clinic policy is X. Like if you can get
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: away with referring to the clinic, that.
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: Helps a lot.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's got to be a policy, right,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: And that's what.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: It doesn't help me because my clinic is named after me,
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: it's clearly my call. And sometimes I've made that joke.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: If the rapport is really good and they get the bit,
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, old man, jobin makes me do this.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: I'm like okay.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: But like for my interns, that works really well because
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: they can just say our clinic policy is X. It's
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: not my call, Like there really is a clinical director
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: is this way?
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: Get your ass back in that fucking box.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: I told you stay in there. Stay in the dog box.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: It's a dog box for dogs and interns. So yeah,
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: so writer, we're trying to give you that that kind
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: of idea that there are ways to spin this. You are,
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: but I like that you're nervous about it because I
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: have seen therapists go the other way.
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you don't want to do that. I need to
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: get my money.
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: Oh man, it might be really weird.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: We've had people over the years right in about weird
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: no matter what profession you're in. Yeah, it's fucking weird
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: where they're just like, Okay, well, I'm gonna have to
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: charge it because you're late, and I'm gonna charge because
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: you missed it, Like there was somebody who wrote it
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: in a few weeks ago that was like the therapist
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: fucked up. Yeah, and they still build the client and
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: call them out on it. It's like, dude, the stuff
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: it's dumb. Yeah, So I like a therapist like you writer,
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: who is more sensitive to this. But I also want
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: to respect because we earn our livings the same way
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: you do. You bills to pay, and you can't call
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: the grocery store and say, I'm sorry, I had some cancelations,
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: so can I get these groceries half off? Like, it's
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: not how this works. Your your kid's tuition still has
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: to be paid at the daycare, like mortgage still is
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: due rent still, so at the end of the day,
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: it is proper to assess the fee. I'm a big
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: fan of fully informed consent, though, in the very first session,
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: going over this detail, taking the time to talk money.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: In that first session, that's when that's the most prepared. Yeah,
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: that's when they're the most prepared to have that conversation.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: So making sure they get it and ask them do
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: you have any questions about this? Don't tell them that
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: you give a freebie on the first one. Don't tell
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: them there's a mulligan, prepare them for this, and then
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: when they cancel, if you want to give them the
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: mulligan and use that as your reminder opportunity. Now they've
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: gotten two warning shots. And then when they do it again,
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: that's when you say, oh, shoot, I'm sorry to hear that.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: If I'm able to fill that session, I'll be able
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: to waive this. If I'm not the clinic policy as
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: we do have to assess that fee we talked about
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: in the first session. I hope you understand that's it.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: And then ultimately you let them deal with this and
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: like again, they are helping professionals too, they understand it. Now,
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: what are your thoughts on the patient using their tech
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: answering phone? And we got to keep in mind this
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: is a special population. These are first responders. When their
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: phone rings, they are conditioned to reach forward immediately because
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: it could be a big thing. Even if they're off
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: the clock quote unquote their partners aren't you know, like
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: there's other things going on.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: Can you just tell me, like maybe if you can
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: be mindful of it. I here's what i would do,
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: because I'm kind of passive aggressive. I would put a
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: sign on the wall okay, honestly and just or like
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: a sign someplace that's visible with like cell phone lying
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: through it. Yeah, and something to the effect of, let's
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: make an agreement. I'll stay off my phone, you stay
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: off yours. Yeah, just like, hey, this is a both
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: a two way street here. I like using some humor
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: on this.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: I like that as a good mitigation straight because calling
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: them out I think can be tension and I think
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: you can rupture the relationship.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: But being playful. Yeah, there's that sign you know that
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: pools used to say where we don't swim in your toilets,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: don't be in our pool. Yeah, do the same thing,
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: like don't answer your phone and I won't be in
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: your pool. Yeah, there's that. They'll get it. Don't send
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: that text that I won't be on your phone.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: So Nick, you would kind of use playful energy or
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: have an actual sign something that communicates this as a
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: policy and something we can remind them on to redirect them.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, but also understanding with that specific population. Yeah, and
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: if that's the case, Like if I'm working with someone
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: who's a first responder, you know, I will say like, hey,
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: you know I've got these science here. I would appreciate
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: it if you can, if you're able to, you know,
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: have somebody cover for you for an hour. I like
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: that do something like that to make yourself present and
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: available for the session. That would be ideal. I understand
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: obviously there's situations you're gonna have to answer.
• 49:41
  Speaker 5: It's also a great conversation to have that first day
• 49:43
  Speaker 5: when you're having a conversation about the translation fees.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Especially when they introduce themselves during the intake and you
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: understand what their their professional role is.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: Writer.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: You have enough lived experience now that you can anticipate
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: that and say so listen. I've worked with a lot
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: of first responders. Our program specializes in ite. The things
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: I think all of you have in common is you're
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: extremely responsive to your technology because lives could be on
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: the line. So here's the agreement I want to make
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: with us. I want this time to be about you
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: and not the many, many people that you're responsible for helping.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: I'm here to help you today, and so while we're here,
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna ask that this be your focus, that you
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: be your focus, and that unless it is a true emergency,
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: you try to stay off the phone.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: I would even say something, I mean if I'm gonna
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: word it how in my way, how I would speak,
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: I would say something the effect of, I know this
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: is very important to you. I trust that you'll make
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: every effort. Oh, I like that. Present, I like that.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: But I do understand you're gonna have to say some
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: phone calls.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: But I do trust that you and then picking your battles,
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: you know, because then if they go okay, thank you,
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: and then they keep compulsively checking their phone, I don't know,
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: make that part of therapy, not in a confrontational way,
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: but ask like, you know, like, hey, you still on
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: your phone. Yeah, I see that You've had to check
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: your phone over and over again. Is everything okay? Well, yeah,
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: everything's fine. Just my daughter should checking on this. My
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: wife wants to over the milk. Is so let me
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: ask you about your stress. Let me ask you, is
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: it is it tough sometimes that I mean, you're literally
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: scheduled at a therapy appointment in the world just keeps
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: barking up the tree.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: What's that like for you? It looks like you're on
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: pornhub again. Yeah, you can't make it. I told you,
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: I told you I have to check it on my
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: daughter's work.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, christ Jesus nice Jacob, why what are your thoughts
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: on Uh, you know, the daughter being a porn hub star.
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well good for her. It's positive.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: Nobody's going to the site for her. Yeah, it's a
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: big website. Your brows to me. I let you know, feedback,
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: I have notes.
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I kind of like the idea bringing into therapy
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: if over time it has been a consistent issue and
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: you've done already what Jim said, where it's like, hey,
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: I noticed you're you're answering your phone. Yeah, I'm stressed
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: about X y Z. You can address the stress. But
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: I also think bringing in like bringing awareness to sort
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: of what like Jacob said, bring awareness to the fact
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: that they're looking at their phone or answering their phone.
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: I would even try something like, well, do you feel
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: like you're getting the most out of our sessions together? Like,
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: how do you feel like they're going I actually do
• 52:17
  Speaker 4: this pretty often in sessions. I do try and ask
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: for some feedback, like Hey, at the end, is there
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: anything you wish we would have talked about today that
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: I want to ask about? And I think this kind
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: of falls into that category of like, yeah, are you
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: getting what you want out of it? Because I'm imagining
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: if I'm a client in a session and I want
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: I mean, I've been in therapy appointments and I've had
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: an urge to like check a text because something's going
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: on outside of session or whatever that's personal, and I'm like, no,
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: don't do that, Whitney, like that's gonna fuck up like
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: the vibe right now. But I can imagine if you
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: weren't a therapist and a therapy session, you might have
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: like the casualness of like, oh, I can just check
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: my phone while while I'm chatting with my therapist, but
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: not fully aware of how disruptive that is to the flow.
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: So I think the therapist asking or you you writer,
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: asking your clients like, hey, how do you feel when
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: you're answering the phone? Does that feel like it disrupts
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: our flow? Because every now and then, I'll have maybe
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: especially a little ADHD client baby who's like in, they're
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: and they kind of want to do other stuff while
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: we're meeting, right, And that was really hard in the
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: beginning for me. Really they kind of need it, they
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: need to do those things, maybe not check their phone,
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: but it's things that I would call distracting at times
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: with any other client, but they actually function better that way.
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: So if they say, no, actually I like this, I
• 53:34
  Speaker 4: feel fine, like we're flowing whatever. Even if you don't agree,
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: I think you have to just kind of off like
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: own that in the moment and just say okay, I'm
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: going to respect that perspective and maybe ask again later,
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: checking again one more time later, like asking them again,
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: how are you feeling the flow is going well?
• 53:50
  Speaker 5: You can even say like, oh, you feel like you
• 53:53
  Speaker 5: feel like we're flowing well, you know, I'm noticing little
• 53:56
  Speaker 5: things that can easily just be me. Maybe just keep
• 53:59
  Speaker 5: it in the back of your head. They're like, yes,
• 54:01
  Speaker 5: let's be mindful about how this flow is continued.
• 54:04
  Speaker 4: I want to make sure it's not disruptive. Yeah, kind
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: of calling it out without being like you're disrupting our
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: sessions but not correcting.
• 54:11
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Like, I'm curious, I'm noticing this. That doesn't mean
• 54:13
  Speaker 5: that it has to be true, but I'm noticing this.
• 54:16
  Speaker 5: So let's you and I just be mindful of this.
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, ver, I like that. I think all of
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: these are gentle ways.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: But if this is your population and you're noticing this
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: population has some specific tendencies, it's In my opinion, that's
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: a great advantage because for me, I sporadically get first responders,
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: and I will not be thinking I need to get
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: ahead of this problem because it's been a while since
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: this sad last night. But if my clinic kind of
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: specializes in that population, I know it's going to happen,
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: and so I can anticipate that during intake and say so,
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: some of the realities of this job are unique. I've
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: been lucky enough to get to know people in your profession.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: I've seen some patterns. There's gonna be some things about
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: your life that I kind of know a little bit
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: more about and can anticipate. There's gonna be things that
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: are unique to your life you're gonna have to teach
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: me about. Also, by the way, there's realities about your
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: job and you're getting called in. So here's the special
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: ways that we're going to anticipate that. Or with your tech,
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: you know, I realized you could your tech vibrates, and
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: you're not a person who just goes, oh, the phone vibrated.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: I'm sure that's just a notification from Facebook. Your brain
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: might think, are shots fine, I'm getting called it? Yeah,
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: there's something bad happening. I know my friend is going
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: on a bus today. That could have been an up.
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: Plus who has Facebook notifications turned off? A psychopaths. That's
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: a cyclic.
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: I was going to say, iPhones now there do not disturb.
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: You can set like customized ones where it's just like
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: all right, do not disturb everyone except for people, right, Yeah,
• 55:47
  Speaker 4: it's an auto respond you know.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: It's funny.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: Before I left the office and went straight telehealth, I
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: was actually the process of buying what's that box called
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: that you put tech in.
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: You put your phone in and it locks and it
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: won't like it like.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: Blocks all e m V weights or whatever, so that
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: you can't hear you anymore.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: It's like dead.
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: It's something box. It's not a Freudian box. Yeah, but anyway,
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: whatever that thing is called. I had heard of another
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: therapist doing that because the content they were discussing in
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: session was showing up in ads on Instagram.
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: I will talk about like a client will talk about
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: their their vacation. They're going on I'm not kidding, I
• 56:31
  Speaker 4: will be like on later and I'm like ship.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so like that became a thing for me.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: Where box that's it? But yeah, our cage Faraday.
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: Cage, Fverday cage they make like bags they walk.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they make kids do it at schools, But like,
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: I think there's value to that. I mean, obviously this
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: is an adult you're dealing with. If they don't want
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: to do that, then I wouldn't, you know, ask them
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: to that's too much. But I have had people that
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: have said I want privacy, and like they'll leave their
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: phone in their car, but in Las Vegas can't always
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: do that because it'll melt, so like we would have
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: a Faraday cage just put it into and be like, Yo,
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: this protects you from your phone picking up ads from
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: the very private ship you're telling me about. And I
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: don't know what's going to happen, Like you're sitting here
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: talking about I don't know, having an affair, and then
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: like you go home and I don't know if like
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: how your phone talks.
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: To your IP address, right Jesus Christ, what.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: It was a time machine to take you back? Yeah? Yeah,
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: like when finishing.
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah that's what I heard still this morning. Yeah, I
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: mean I saw an account. They don't charge me as much. Yeah,
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: it's like the Google auto finishing your search query and
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: the dad sits down and it says like how do
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: I And he types it in and says like, how
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: do I know if I'm pregnant? And like he runs
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: over and gets his daughter and like what the fuck
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: and it's like that's it. So yeah, So anyway, writer,
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: I think that there's a lot of ways to anticipate
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: these things. You're lucky enough to have the same population
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: over and over again building up that confidence to do
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: it is again, it's not about imposing ourselves. It's not
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: about seeing ourselves as professionals worthy of the fee. I
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: think that a lot of other therapists get really preachy
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: about that on LinkedIn and shit, and I just kind
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: of find it gross. I just think it's about being
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: able to run an effective practice that allows you to
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: do this full time so that you can be present
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: when they need you to be present. And like they
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: get that, you know, they get called to, you know,
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: response to things, and then get dispatch calls them again,
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: says never mind, everything's all clear. They still get paid
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: for the hour. They're still on the clock, and they
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: understand that whether they answered it or not, they're getting paid,
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: and there's a reason they need to be available to
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: do that and like that's the concept of that profession.
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: So you are in good company. It's something we all
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: struggle with. There's a lot of ways to do this
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: so that you can just get it done. But I
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: really am a big fan of lots of informed consent,
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: making it very clear at intake what the you know,
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: normal standards are giving them a mulligan if you can,
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: and then circling back around and saying, hey, we are
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: going to have to build that card on file or
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: if you don't have a card on file, to submit
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: an invoice them and say we can't schedule your next
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: appointment until this is complete, because a lot of times
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: you'll end up with debt, Like they'll I have people
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: that like have outstanding invoices and it's like, okay, we're
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: you know, going on and on here and like you're
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: piling up on invoice. Remember in the early days of
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: my practice, I would allow that and they'd be into
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: me for a thousand bucks. I'd be like, this is
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: getting hard, Like I this is too much like now
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: it's distracting me from my therapeutic focus and can't have that.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: So anyway, a very relatable question. The train guy congratulations
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: on your career.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: Good luck.
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: Make sure you go to patron dot com slash therapy
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: and throw us some of your cancelation money.
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: By the way, we can keep doing what we're doing.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: We're gonna take aquick break and when we come back
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: we are talking about thing.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: Because I already answered this one. Wait what yeah, we
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: switched those questions. Oh yeah, so okay, it's a question.
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: It's good. Don't worry, It'll be great. I'll stick it out. Yeah,
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: it'll be great. All right. Today's episode is brought to
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: you by Robert Brown Junior Men's Kayla Lansbury, Kevin Chamberlain,
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: Ben Stanley, Adam Hathway, Dan Martin, Hey, Andrew laying me
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: Chad meg and would you like to smise to the
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: show become a therap producer Patreon dot com. Are we
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: already on the third question?
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: That's what I got confused about all of a sudden,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: I just forgot ship.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, we're get close to the end of a double
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: a double recording day. We're all a little confused thing
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: together now, all right, here we go the Marshall Mathers
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: l P.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: Damn it that such a fucking good album?
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: Or come away with me? By Nora Jones, Come Away
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: with Me to ane of the playing? Which album the
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: Marshall Math.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: Original, Slim Shady, the Real Shady.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: All the other slim Shadies are just imitating swim.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: I'm going with Shady. One is Nora Robert, Nora Jones, her, yes, Roberts.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's Nora Jones's whatever, Nora Jones. That's
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: my pick too. Okay, fuck it, slim Shady, It's not
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: gonna be. It's gonna be Nora Jones. But I'm taking
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: it for the games. Would it was the Marshall Mad.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 4: Make the Comeback?
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: Oops I did it again by Britney Spears or Human
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: Clay by Creed?
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: Oh all right, so I remember when Britney Spears' album.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 4: Came out because You're Sexual Awakening.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: Yet another Awakening. But this was not It was a
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: big first album. This wasn't Oops I did it again. No,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: this was Oops I did it again. That's not her
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: first second on the first one Baby one Baby, never mind, Okay,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: good point. I was thinking of hit me baby, oh man, okay.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 4: First last time. So someone else gets was what was
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 4: the option?
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: Was Brittany or who Human Clay Creed? Creed I'll take
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: Brittany Creed. Creed was a young upstart.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: Creed, but that's Christian period that they did at the
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: beginning of Man, all right, we're going I'm betting based
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: on the title human Yeah, that makes right back in time? Yeah.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: Born to Run by Bruce Springsteen okay? Or the Rumors
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: album by Fleetwood Mac Rumor has it?
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 5: Rumors one of the best like full albums ever absolutely
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 5: started to finish.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: Great great album. Hmm. I went first on the.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 4: Last one, anyway, Jim should go first.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: I'll go first. Go ahead, I'll take Rumors.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 4: Okay, that's the Fleetwood Mac one is And what was
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: the other one of Spring.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: Want to Run? Springsteen to Run.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna go spring I have no idea to run?
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: Okay? Oh man, I think Fleetwood Mac Born to Run
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: That was in seventy five. Rumors was in seventy seven.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: Crushing out.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: It all right? Last one Goodbye Yellow Brick Road by
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: Elton John is one of the best full albums. Fantastic album.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: Or Hotel California, Do Do Do Do Do? What is
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: the song You're sinking Jim, Hotel California? Sing some more
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: of it? California?
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 6: You know.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: Hotel California. You know, can you tell me you're in
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: the Hotel California. Hotel California.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: By Yellow brick Rod, Tell Mo tell Holiday in Elton.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 4: Okay, I'm gonna go Eagles for funzies.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: I'm also Eagles. They both took Eagles. I'm going Elton, Elton,
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: John Damn dude. The Eagles came out with Hotel California
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: in seventy six.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 4: Wow six.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: That's a big gap too, had thanks the big gap.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 4: Wow small.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: The Whitney absolutely dominated us, right, like she's I've only
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: lost two.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's doing it. Yeah, sure, yeah, slowed down a
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: little bit.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: I did.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: That's why I said I had to get it in early,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 4: because giggy.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: Yea yeah, because otherwise they run.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: Away exactly.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: Next question is about anxiety and depression, and there's a
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: trigger warning that this does involve suicidality. Also, it has
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: been trimmed down substantially.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: Substantially. Yeah, it was originally quite robust. I read the
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: whole thing twice, so I can. I can fill in
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: any gaps of knowledge.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 4: If you follow up questions.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: Hey, guys, love the pod. I found it a few
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: months ago and haven't missed an episode since I appreciate
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: the honesty and different perspectives on tough topics. Apologies if
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: this runs along. Life's been kicking me in the nuts
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: since nineteen ninety three. I'm a thirty one year old woman.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: Really good T shirt to buy, by the way, that
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: would be solid.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: I'm a thirty one year old woman living in the
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: Midwest with my husband and two cats. I've dealt with
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: anxiety and depressions since childhood, but wasn't diagnosed until twenty
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: four after a panic attack. I grew up in a
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: strict religious immigrant household with fundamentalist expectations, no dating, arranged marriage,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: the whole thing. By seventeen, I was a closeted atheist.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: By fifteen, I was already planning my escape. Wait, they
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: went backwards until okay, yeah, my path out was through college.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: My parents let me go but not live on campus,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: so I stayed close. I met my now husband there,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: but we had to date in secret. When my mother
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: found out, I moved out that same day. I went
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: no contact for two years due to stalking and threats.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: During that time, my partner and I built a life together,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: but I struggled with rage, alcohol, and pushing people away. Eventually,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: a family member invited me to a wedding and I reconnected.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: And I reconnected. It was rocky.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: I found out they'd lied about where I was and
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: what I was doing. Around that time, I started therapy,
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: which was life saving for me, and tried multiple medications.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: Effects Or helped for a while. When my husband and
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: I got engaged, I finally told my family about him.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: They weren't happy. Some agreed to be in the wedding,
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: but bailed. On the morning of my wedding, I realized
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: they'd all essentially disowned me. I cried for over an hour,
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: high and heartbroken, but eventually walked myself down the aisle.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: It ended up being a beautiful day, and I felt
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: real joy for the first time. That joy was short lived.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: Effects or stopped working. My husband got laid off, and
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: I crumbled under the pressure to be the strong one.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: I developed suicidal ideation. My inner voice, who I called Tina,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: tells me I'm worthless alone and should just give up.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: I found a psychiatrist that now takes Symbalta, which mostly
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: helps I stay busy doing yoga, journaling, volunteering, but one
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: missed dose and a bad day and is back with
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: a vengeance. The suicidal ideation returns often.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: I isolate.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: I already have a method in mind. When the fog clears,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: I feel disgusted with myself for how cruel my inner
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: voice is. My therapist reminds me that I'm not alone,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: that I've chosen family and tools, but it feels like
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: we're beating a dead horse. I'm exhausted, I feel the
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: next time my meds stop working. I don't know how
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: to keep going when life just won't stop breaking my heart?
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: So how do I evict Tina from my head? And
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: how do I keep going when my soul is so
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: so tired? Signed a weary soul.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: So just to clarify here, because so in the for time,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: A lot of times when we get long letters, we
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: have to cut it down. We pay Whitney by the minute,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: and if we go over we can't afford it.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: She's as expensive as a sex phone line operator, which
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: is where.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 4: Else should I be here?
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, hanging out with us?
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: Now have to pay you to hang out with and
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: like all women, we split it three ways.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: Economical. So I cut this down. I edited it by hand,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: and it was still really long. So we sent it
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: through AI, and AI cut it down even further. Yes, Okay,
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: to give a little backstory here. Uh, the the cultural
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: religious component was huge, the fact that the writer did
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: not want to go through an arranged marriage and marry
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: a complete stranger. She found somebody in college, different culture,
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: different religion, had hired the relationship all through college. Parents
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: found out about it, completely disowned. See, they tried to
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: reconnect later, she got invited to a friend a cousin's wedding,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: showed up at the wedding, found out that from everybody
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: else that they've just been lying about what happened to her. Wow,
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: they were just like, oh, she has many states away. No,
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: she was like an hour away. Okay, so they just
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: completely cut her out light about how it happened. She
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: tried to rebuild, it did not work out, and so
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: now she's completely pretty much disowned or the family has
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: disowned her. Okay. So the wedding, she had only six
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: people from her family that said they were going to
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: be there, and they all canceled the morning of she
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: so she basically had no one at the wedding.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: So then there was a little bit of substance use
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: in there. As well dealing with all of that. And
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: I tie all this in because this is kind of
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: one of the things that suicidal voice will pick on
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: I see and say, like, no one loves you, here's
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: evidence of that, so and so forth you'reth into. Yeah,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: the suicidal ideation, got it. So that's the backstory, hopefully, writer.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: I hope I did it. Credit boy, we saved a
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: lot of time not reading that letter. Yeah, so anyway, feel.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 3: That's fair.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Solid.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 5: Also definitely people were yelling that to their photes and
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 5: everything that you were explaining all Nick's been thirty seconds
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 5: explaining about how much time this saves.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: So when we see this a lot critical inner voice
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: telling you you have no value. And I think it's
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: so important that the writer recognizes that as the disorder
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: that it is, that that is depression, that that is
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: a mental illness, that you should not trust, that that
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: there is a delusion to that. And I think it's
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: profound that the writer can sense the difference when quote
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: unquote the medicine stops working or we have a bad day,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: that it's it's like being ill, it's like being compromised,
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: you know, and it's like being a diabetic or having
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: any other chronic physical condition. You have bad days where
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: you go, well, I'm not going to the beach today, Guys,
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: why because you know, the ex is acting up or
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: whatever it is that I'm going through, it's not going
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: to cooperate. It's not going to work. I have to
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: attend to myself. My herpes is flared up, yeah, violent,
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: herpees outbreaking. So, like, this is a really difficult thing
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: whenever it's it's this chronic condition. I love that the
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: writer sees that and is able to identify, and I
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: really like the idea of externalizing that inner voice, giving
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: it a name that that is Tina. Tina's a liar,
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: Tina treats me this way. Tina is the embodiment of
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: my sister, my mother, my aunt, like the women in
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: this culture that broke out.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: Addictions treatment all the time. Oh I love that. Yeah,
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: you're just kind of like, okay, let's give your addiction
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: a name, right, And it helps a personality, Yeah, it
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: helps to identify it because then it's kind of like
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: it becomes that character in every movie where like when
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: this character says this thing, you know, the exact opposite
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: it's going to happen, right, that's just the nature of
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: that character, right. It kind of helps you be able
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: to see it, like like I have this thought and
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: be like, Okay, well that's clearly not me thinking. That's
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: not my thought. That's not my thought. I love that,
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: you know. And then it's like, Okay, well, now I
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: know how to act because I can recognize that not me, yes,
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: and I can doubt it.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: And to me, that's what writer, I'm really really thrilled about,
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: is that you are able to cast doubt on the
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: thinkings of Tina and understand and this is vital that
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: the feelings we're having in those depressive spirals are not facts.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: The feeling of worthlessness, the feeling of shame, the feeling
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: of guilt, the feeling of isolation, all the feelings of
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: rejection that come from the family, and the feelings of
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: just despair and hopelessness for the future. That these are
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: not facts, that they are delusions. They are part of
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: a mental illness called depression that I am medicated for,
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: that I am in therapy for that I've struggled with
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: my whole life. That comes to me very honestly through
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: the context and situations that I've been confronted with in
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: my life. The fact that you are able to identify
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: all of that and wrap up a good portion of
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: it in the voice of Tina. I just want to
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: celebrate that, you know, as we're taking stock of this,
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: I just want to first off say, wow, I love
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: that progress. You have a great therapist and you've clearly
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: dedicated yourself to making some great progress.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 4: I think it's important to point out that that feeling
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 4: that you mentioned toward the end, like the anxiety or
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 4: fear about Tina returning with a vengeance and like, oh,
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 4: it's only a matter of time my meds are going
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 4: to stop working or whatever, and now Tina's going to
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 4: come back and all hope is lost. What was the point?
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 6: You know?
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 4: Those negative, negative voices do come back, and negative thoughts
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 4: come back in I think that's very relatable because it
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 4: it is so overwhelming to deal with those thoughts, to
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 4: deal with those voices, and to have this expectation that
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 4: I mean, really, is Tina ever going to go away completely?
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 4: Maybe not, like we don't know, but maybe not? And
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 4: why do we keep going as humans? Like what pushes
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 4: us through those difficult times? It sounds like your your
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 4: husband is there and I know we didn't. He wasn't
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 4: mentioned a lot. Maybe uh Nick or AI cut him out,
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 4: but he wasn't mentioned as much. But I hear you
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 4: say that you feel the pressure of carrying on when
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 4: he's been laid off, being the strong one. And I
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 4: challenge you a little bit to lean in a little
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 4: bit more and trust those who are around you to
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 4: I don't know if share is the right word, but
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 4: to allow them to support you sometimes, because a lot
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 4: of times when I see clients who are trying to
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 4: be the strong one and they carry a lot of
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 4: this deep dark depression with him, it's like very interesting
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 4: to watch, but they don't want to open up to anyone.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 4: They don't want to be a burden. I don't want
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 4: to burden others.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: I don't want to like bother The body already has
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: enough of a burden to add to it.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: Exactly, And silence keeps us sick.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 4: It does. And you mentioned isolating whenever that voice comes
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 4: back up, and I would encourage you to push through
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 4: that isolation and decide when you're in a better mindset
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 4: what you want to do. When you're in maybe that
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 4: darker mindset, decide what what is my plan? When I
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 4: start feeling those thoughts, when I notice I'm isolating, when
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 4: I notice my hygienes going downhill, when I notice these
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 4: actual are my red flat, yeah, tangible things. I need
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 4: to go in there and sit next to my husband
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 4: in the living room and just say, hey, I'm struggling
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 4: right now, right, you know, use that support.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: I think another word that you're you're I think walking
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: toward there and you know, well, I'll just call it out.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: This therapists phrase is safety plan, right yeah, and so
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: like I think that when you've chronically lived with depression
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: for a really long time and writer you've given us,
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: I think some some important indicators here that still came
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: through despite Nick's desire to delete you uh and the
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: AI attempt to reframe.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: I would have put the whole thing in there. You did.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: Dream Yeah, no, thank you. Honestly, I am the most
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: grateful because I cannot read for thirty minutes, like you know,
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: thank you for not making me do that. So I'm
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: on your team.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: Don't listen to these fuckers. They're dumb.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 4: I mean, I'm Jacob, no, no, no, no.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 3: I want you to know I support you.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: Wo walk you down the if that's what you need. Okay,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: just the best man toast. You know, accidents happen all
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: the time.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: It's important she have an understudy who's ready to go
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: at a moment's notice.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 4: Okay, working on my speech, just.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: Saying don't don't maybe don't. I think I don't think
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: you'll need it or give it to me. I'll just
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: read a word for word when I was a young
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: girl growing up in Texas. No, but like, I really
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: like that you have a safety plan. And if that's
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: not something you fully developed with your therapist, think it's
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: important because you're giving us some important clues that didn't
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: get washed out through the edits where you said, look,
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: you know you didn't use the baseball metaphor, but you
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: kind of said, look, I'm on second base sometimes, you know.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: And we've talked about this in the past. We use
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: the baseball unifore for suicidalin We've.
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: Got to revisit it.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: First base is I feel despair, I feel hopeless. I
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: think about death, but it doesn't go much further than that.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: I just have thoughts about death. I feel like it'd
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: be a relief to die, And sometimes I don't care
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: if I'm alive or dead, it's there. Second base is
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: I'm starting to practically answer the question of how I
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: would do this. I'm taking that thought further. I'm imagining
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: the method that I would use, and I'm even aware
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: of whether or not I have access to that method.
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: It's a practical method. It's not a method of like
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: I would jump off the moon, like you can't practically
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: do that, but it's a method of like I would
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: do this action, or I would utilize this tool. And
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: then third base is starting to get very serious about
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: the where and the when this plan is now materializing
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: into an action plan. It's showing up and then turning
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: past third base and starting to head home. Is going
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: through all the other red flag behaviors self sabotage, self destruction,
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: giving away your stuff, like starting to really make the
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: plan to do this, and ultimately getting to an attempt.
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: So you're indicating in your letter that you know you
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: relate to second base, that you've gotten to this place
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: of asking how, and it frightens you how quickly your
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: brain will go back to second base when a humanist
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: is doing that, What we want a therapist is to
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: see them have a very strong safety plan that says,
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: if I get to second base, here are the things
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: I am gonna do. Intervention one, I'm gonna use this
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: medicine when my Symbalta is not working. I don't know
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: if it was simpolts it effects or know they switched
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: it effects are first, and then they went to when
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: my Symbalta is not working, I might have to use
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: an anti anxiety medicine that's more acute care oriented to
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: get me out of my head and out of a spiral,
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: you know, And so that might be indicated, but like
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: that might be on the safety plan. This is how
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: I'm going to contact my therapist. This is I'm going
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: to contact a support group. These are the things I'm
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: going to keep in my life on standby my husband,
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: might you know, might be friends, things like that that
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: I'm going to reach out to and and indicate that
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: I need help. And I'm going to do the things
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: that are good self care for me. And that might
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: mean that I distance myself from the method I imagine
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: myself using, or I get rid of things in my
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: house that I know I shouldn't have. And this is
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: a good time. You know you didn't mention firearms, but
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: this is a good time to mention. To hold my
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: Guns dot Org a really good program that you can
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 2: go to and you can find gun suppliers and organizations
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: in your community that will take custody of your firearms
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 2: and give them back to you when you are ready.
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: It's completely free. And this is the number one way
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: that people in their lives is just utilizing a firearm
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: in their home on a very bad day. And if
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: you find yourself getting to second base and you're thinking
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: about using your firearms, you need to go ahead and
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: surrender your guns for a while, just get rid of
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: them for a minute. You'll be fine without them.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 5: If you have a close friend or relative that has
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 5: a gun safe, that's a great option.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: If you don't hold my Guns dot org there you go,
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: go check it out. And almost any firearm dealer now
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: which will have an arrangement where they will take custody
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: of your stuff. They'll give you a receipt and then
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: you just come on back whenever you're ready for it
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: and they'll hand it right back to you, polish and everything.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: So you know, I just want to put that out
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: there right or that a safety plan is absolutely pivotal
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: when somebody's getting to this place and they're experiencing that
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: second level. Now, your question of how do I evict Tina?
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: I want to be real, It's very likely that Tina
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: will sort of always exist to some extent, and that
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: sucks because that means you're always going to have to
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: do battle with these self deprecating thoughts. At the end
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: of the day, the thoughts are a probably enduring reality
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: is part of depression. But that doesn't mean that we're powerless.
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that we have to just sit here
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: and endure terrible feelings and going through this. You're using medication,
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 2: you're also altering the medication, and that sounds like you
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 2: have a good doctor in your life. For psychiatrists, that's
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 2: helping you monitor this and manage and navigate. I love
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 2: hearing that writer, because chronic long term depression requires long
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: term thinking and requires adaptability. You're using all the tools
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: afforded you, and I love that, and I think that's
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: really important because we might not be able to just
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: eliminate Tina. But the fact that you have named this
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: and externalized it also gives you access to tools like
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: responding to it.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: That to me is key.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: The ability to respond to these thoughts in an honest
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: way that assesses what they're saying and right sizes this
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: criticism and disputes it and refutes it. That stuff that
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: we learn in cognitive behavioral therapy. That won't evict Tina,
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: but it will limit her influence. And that's ultimately the
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: stopping point that I want for you.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: It helps to describe Tina and understand that Tina is
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: not looking out for your best interests, right, yeah, you know.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: And I it also kind of reminds me of In
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: a Beautiful Mind, the movie where he's you know, he
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: still has these hallucinations, you know that he's been dealing
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: with forever and there, you know, someone asks him towards
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: the end of the movie, like, well, are they still there?
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: And he's like, yep, they're still there. But he describes it,
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: he's like, it's a diet of the mind where I
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: just choose not to indulge in certain Yeah. Uh, I
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: can't remember how he describes it, but almost kind of
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: describes it that way, like, you know, they're there, but
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: I choose not to engage with them, you know, Right,
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: It's Tina's always going to be there, but it's not
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: I'm aware that battle is not always going to be difficult, right,
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: Like you kind of learned to understand Tina, and you
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: start to understand and like, oh I can defeat Tina. Yeah,
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: she's not going to go away. But I've learned how
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: to deal with this, right, you know, and you learn
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: how to handle it. Also, i'll throw out, uh, since
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: you're a new listener and just kind of getting into
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: our back catalog, go back to episode one seventy three
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: back in April of twenty twenty one. Jesus, we had
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: Robert Brownie Junior meant on the show. Oh, that's a
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: good one. That is a great episode. Yeah, and he
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: talks a lot about his experience with that and a
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: lot of what you're talking about sounds very similar, very
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: similar to what he was saying. And I think listening
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: to that episode may help put some perspective behind all
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: of this. Oh, that's a great I think that'd be
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: a good episode to listen to.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and even you know, I love that you're listening
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: to our show, obviously selfishly, but like I love that
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: you're finding content that is relatable and normalizing and you know,
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: being a part of a community to the extent that
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 2: you choose to where other people are rooting for you
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: and can be there too. And sometimes even just saying
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: out loud like I'm hearing this, you know, really negative
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 2: stuff today and I'm just having to remind myself that
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: that's not true and push through it. Saying that in
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: the discord sometimes just feels really good just to have
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: other people click like and say yep, fight that bitch.
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 2: Don't listen to Tina, you know, And it's just like
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: validating and be like, yeah, no, you're right, guys, Like
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: this is a disease of the mind. I didn't choose it.
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: It was handed to me through situations and contexts. I
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: have overcome those things. I frame myself as a survivor.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 2: I am navigating this with an open mind. I understand.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: I am enlightened enough to know what mental health is
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: all about. And at the end of the day, it's
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: like you said, Nick, I mean, it's the diet of
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: the mind. You may not be able to eliminate this stuff,
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: but you can moderate how you respond to it, and
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: there is a way to decrease the units of suffering
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: because of that, and continuing to explore those medication options.
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: That's me part of it.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: If you notice that the symbalta works, but then sometimes doesn't.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: I want your doctor to know that because that.
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: Could be I was going too.
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 4: Definitely staying in contact with your doctor. I mean, even
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 4: if you're like, oh it works some of the time, like,
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 4: still say.
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 5: That, be open about that stuff. Be open about Tina,
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 5: and be open about the suicidal thoughts.
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you didn't say that you weren't that you are,
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 5: but yeah, be extra open with the doctor about all
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 5: those things.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: Couple last things that I wanted to point out, Yeah,
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: because you did talk about I know, bear with me
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: from the letter. You did talk about how your your
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: therapist had mentioned, uh, kind of brought up to you
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: the difference between the family that you're born into versus
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: the family you choose. And sometimes that is nice to
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: hear and understand that. You know, Uh, it's never easy
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: to be disowned like that from your family, right, But
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: I think it says a lot about who you are
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: with all the people that you've chosen. The family that
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: you choose, I think says more about you than the
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: family you're born into. Yeah, and so you got you've
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: got that support around do so I think that's amazing.
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: The last thing I'm going to touch on be mindful
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: of the substance use. Yeah, because I did hear quite
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: a bit of I felt this way and then I
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: used this substance. I felt this way, and I used
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: this substance. Not necessarily going to imply that there's a
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: substance use disorder here, but that's something to be mindful
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: of when you're using it as a coping skill. And
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: the other thing too, is you know, it's really it's
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: hard to expect medications to work how they're supposed to
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: when you're introducing all of these other substances. So just
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: be mindful of all of that.
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 5: Stuff has effects. Yes, yeah, everything that you put into
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 5: you has as some kind of effect, and just be
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 5: mindful of it.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 4: Doctor Jacob knows best.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: It didn't just I've tried a lot of heert doctor
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: Jacob's pharmacy. That's right, self taught anyway, Weary Soul, thank
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: you for writing in. It's a great question, and we
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: need questions like this because it also gives people hope
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: and it normalizes the experience of a lot of other listeners.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: Throughout the years, we've read reviews where people have said, Look,
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: I just was listening to this and somebody wrote in
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 2: and that question could have been ripped red out of
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: my journal, and it just was so validating to know
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 2: that other humans are enduring and we're all doing this together,
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: existing out of spite, getting through it. But Nick, I'm
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: really glad you brought substance abuse because in the abbreviated
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: letter there was only the briefest reference to I've struggled
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: with alcohol, and it sounds like that is a lifelong struggle.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: It sounds like that easily can become a problem again
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: and other things as well as complicating factors. Yeah, cannot
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 2: overstate how like disruptive that is to the medication and
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: how it will ultimately enable Tina to come back more often.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: So very very important note to make. We're going to
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: take a final break, and when we come back, we
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: are wrapping up the show. You are listening to pod Therapy.
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: Today's episode has brought to you by most appropectly Kayla Lansberry,
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  Speaker 2: My own two albums. You tell me which one came
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  Speaker 1: the Temptations. What that's all last week's session, I think
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  Speaker 1: I'm Nick Tangman, I'm Jim. Thanks and we'll see if
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: your appointment next week. It was the Temptations.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 4: A lot of people WHOA I would have never guessed.
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah, by what thirty years the Temptations might have released
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 5: another album after the Boys to mid.
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, that would have been a cool trivia. When was
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: this basic album? Which album?
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 5: Because the Temptations of this other round and like some
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 5: iteration did this band at least.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: An album before or after this other band existed.
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: That would be a cool Okay, I got a question
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: for you. Which came first, snow yeah or rain? Oh shit?
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: Really depends on where you live. The Temptation's most recent
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: album was released in twenty twenty two.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 3: Oh Damn Temptations sixty damn all right.
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they've been around in some form or other, like
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: none of the original members are in it.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, they're all dead and been replaced.
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know the ship. Yeah, I feel good about that.
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 3: Goodbye, everybody in