Latest / Identity at the Center / #375 - Mailbag for September 2025

Transcript

#375 - Mailbag for September 2025 · Identity at the Center

• 0:04
  This is identity at the center. Welcome to the Identity at the
• 0:11
  Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim.
• 0:12
  Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
• 0:15
  Oh, not so bad yourself. Doing great, man.
• 0:18
  We're doing a Jim and Jeff episode today, so that makes me
• 0:20
  happy. We have to hang out in person.
• 0:24
  It's been a while. We got a couple conferences
• 0:27
  coming up, so we'll get through a lot between now and the end of
• 0:29
  the year. And one other thing I wanted to
• 0:33
  mention. So I while I was away for a
• 0:36
  couple days this week, I kind of fell behind on LinkedIn.
• 0:38
  But I finally caught up with things on the flight home last
• 0:42
  night and got some quick responses from people.
• 0:45
  So they're a few shout outs for people who let me know they
• 0:50
  listen and they really appreciate what we do.
• 0:53
  So Adam, oh, Siobhan, I'm going to mess names of, I'm sorry,
• 0:58
  Shubham Gharia and Alejandro Lowe Fresetti, if you guys are
• 1:03
  listening. Thank you for the notes.
• 1:05
  I mean, Jeff, I don't know about you, but when I get notes that
• 1:07
  people listen and that they thank us for what we're doing in
• 1:12
  the, you know, for the identity space or they let me know, hey,
• 1:16
  I really enjoy the content or I'm learning a lot.
• 1:19
  I mean, it means so much to me. Yeah, it's very, it's very cool.
• 1:23
  I get those messages as well. What I find interesting is we
• 1:25
  don't get the same messages. So none of those people messaged
• 1:27
  me, but I have other ones. So I look at my list here like
• 1:30
  people have emailed or sent me LinkedIn messages recently.
• 1:32
  Jonathan, Judy, Isabella, Jesse Sadaf, Andy Kojo.
• 1:39
  So yeah, it but it is very cool. Glad that people get something
• 1:44
  out of this, whether it's, you know, they enjoy it or they hate
• 1:47
  it and they hate listen or watch it, either way is fine.
• 1:51
  I never get to hate ones. I'm I'm glad about that.
• 1:54
  I mean, you know, LinkedIn people keep things pretty
• 1:57
  cordial. For the most part, yeah.
• 1:59
  No, we've been pretty lucky. We've got to have a great
• 2:01
  community, which you've always said, right?
• 2:02
  The I am community is, is top notch as as I'll say so yeah.
• 2:07
  And that's pretty much what this episode's all about is we get
• 2:10
  questions a lot through our LinkedIn.
• 2:12
  So we get stuff, kind of queue them up and kind of save them up
• 2:16
  for a mailbag episode. And we'll kind of get through a
• 2:18
  bunch of these that listeners have sent out over the last
• 2:21
  probably at this point a couple months.
• 2:22
  Because I think we had a couple earlier in this year and then we
• 2:24
  had a run of conferences and episodes associated with that
• 2:28
  and then guests and things like that.
• 2:29
  So this is another way for us to catch up on, you know, those
• 2:32
  kind of questions. Yeah, and you and I have been in
• 2:35
  this identity space for 20 years each.
• 2:38
  We've been consulting for over a decade and one thing I know
• 2:42
  about myself and I think you say this for you, Jeff, is we don't
• 2:46
  know everything, right? That's.
• 2:47
  What you're going to be. I know everything man.
• 2:49
  Yeah, OK. That's why I said that in.
• 2:51
  Google really quickly I gave you.
• 2:54
  An I gave you an opportunity to be humble.
• 2:57
  But no, obviously you know that we don't know everything while
• 3:02
  we have guests come on most episodes, but we do our best.
• 3:06
  We're like the identity practitioners out there.
• 3:08
  We're, you know, in the battle together and we're going to go
• 3:13
  through our answers today doesn't mean they're they're
• 3:15
  right answers to these mailbag questions.
• 3:17
  If anybody disagrees or really likes to answer, that's another
• 3:21
  reason to reach out or you know, we put all these episodes on
• 3:24
  YouTube. We thought about as as audio
• 3:27
  podcast, right. We started as an audio podcast
• 3:30
  over six years ago, and most of our listener, most of our people
• 3:36
  who consume this podcast, our listeners, but we also produce a
• 3:43
  YouTube video for each one of these episodes that gives folks
• 3:46
  an opportunity to go out and comment on an episode, a
• 3:50
  particular episode, and ask question or say they like or
• 3:54
  disagree with a point. I'd finally encourage that.
• 3:57
  I mean, I don't have a problem with somebody disagreeing with
• 3:59
  me. That's what it's all about.
• 4:02
  Yeah, just be respectful, that's all.
• 4:05
  Stop putting a Bitcoin seed phrases that are obviously
• 4:08
  scams. I'm constantly policing those
• 4:10
  off of our off of our YouTube comments and stuff like that.
• 4:13
  So but yeah, you know, gives us an opportunity.
• 4:16
  So, you know, while you're listening and thinking about
• 4:18
  that, hit it, you know, hit that like and subscribe button too.
• 4:20
  That obviously helps. You know, Jim and I grow the
• 4:21
  channel and the podcast and get great guests, which, you know,
• 4:24
  we've done an amazing job over the years.
• 4:25
  And you know, Jim, that's all you getting, getting really cool
• 4:28
  people to, you know, spend some of their time and, and their
• 4:32
  thoughts with us on the air. It's been a pretty easy job
• 4:35
  actually, because most of the folks I reach out to I it's
• 4:38
  become an easier and easier job over time because the podcast
• 4:41
  has grown. In the early days, it was people
• 4:43
  like Darren Rolls, those people like Eve Mailer who agreed to
• 4:47
  come on this podcast that nobody knew about.
• 4:49
  So but it's still a big coordination effort, obviously.
• 4:54
  So I appreciate that, but we got some conferences coming up, we
• 4:59
  got some discount codes. We should probably at least
• 5:02
  acknowledge that and then jump into things.
• 5:05
  Yes, several conferences. See by the time people listen to
• 5:09
  this on, will it be Monday, the 22nd, I believe maybe it's 21st,
• 5:13
  22nd. I think the Philadelphia Cyber
• 5:16
  Security Summit will be on later in the week.
• 5:19
  So that's Thursday and I will be there.
• 5:22
  So I'm I think I'm moderating a panel.
• 5:25
  I'm not quite sure yet, but I believe I will be and so I hope
• 5:28
  to see some folks out there. I know a couple people who will
• 5:30
  be there, but feel free to use this discount codes free get you
• 5:34
  in. It's a pretty cool conference.
• 5:36
  So this will be my third one third city that I've done this
• 5:39
  year did Raleigh did Chicago a couple weeks ago, Raleigh a
• 5:42
  couple weeks before that and then kind of closing out that
• 5:45
  series for me, at least in Philly, but it's a pretty well
• 5:48
  run conference. It's a few 100 people.
• 5:50
  So it's kind of like the right size to actually meet people,
• 5:53
  have conversations and because it's local in a specific, you
• 5:56
  know, city, you meet people in your space that are in, you
• 6:00
  know, your kind of region and makes a little bit easier to
• 6:03
  form connections and things like that.
• 6:04
  So OK, forward to that and let's see after that.
• 6:08
  I'm actually going to be at sale point navigate conference, not
• 6:12
  this coming week, but I guess the following week, so you can
• 6:15
  look for me there. I'll be there as part of the RSM
• 6:16
  contingent, which everybody, well, not everybody knows,
• 6:18
  everybody thinks we do the podcast is our full time jobs.
• 6:20
  That's absolutely not the truth. That is our night and weekend
• 6:25
  job. By day we work for RSM as I am
• 6:27
  consultants, so helping people solve their digital identity
• 6:30
  security problems. But I'll be there for the sale
• 6:33
  point conference, probably somewhere around a booth.
• 6:36
  I think I'm also running a, a newer game show that we have not
• 6:40
  tried before. So it'll be kind of a test bed
• 6:41
  for that. So if you're a listener, you
• 6:43
  know, come stop by the RSM session at Cell Point Navigates.
• 6:48
  Let's see. Authenticate with Fido Alliance
• 6:50
  is coming up. So we're going to do Fido Feud
• 6:54
  rematch. So you're going to take on Megan
• 6:56
  again, I'm not sure if you guys have figured out teammates yet,
• 7:00
  but I know that there was a lot of people who expressed interest
• 7:03
  when it was time to register for Authenticate.
• 7:06
  So the Fight Alliance is a time to keep track of that.
• 7:08
  And we've been working with Megan and Adrian and obviously
• 7:11
  yourself to figure out OK, of the pool of people who express
• 7:14
  interest. Who do you want to get on stage
• 7:16
  and be part of that? I'm going to be the neutral
• 7:17
  party. I am the host.
• 7:20
  I'm the Steve Hardy without the long jacket or the mustache, but
• 7:24
  I'll be coordinating it. Adrian and I are working on the
• 7:27
  questions. So if you have not yet seen the
• 7:31
  survey that went out from the Fight Alliance, I also put it
• 7:33
  into the IT Pro conferences or maybe it was a general channel.
• 7:37
  There is either way that people can submit answers.
• 7:40
  So the questions are out there, but the only people who can see
• 7:43
  the answers are myself and Adrian for the Fight Alliance.
• 7:46
  So she and I are coordinating to make sure that, you know, this
• 7:49
  is a a fair game, Jim, so that there's no cheating, no
• 7:53
  allegations, nothing like that. Well, unlike, unlike last year,
• 7:56
  right, So. There wasn't cheating last year.
• 7:59
  There was interpretation of answers that were maybe suspect,
• 8:04
  but I'm. Going to give you my, my view of
• 8:07
  things, right? I didn't feel like last year was
• 8:10
  fair, but that was fun because last year really didn't count.
• 8:13
  Last year was more of like a trial run.
• 8:16
  This year, this is the first official year.
• 8:19
  So we'll see who wins this year. I think it's going to be team
• 8:22
  IDAC because this year is going to be completely fair.
• 8:27
  It's going to be heads up Team IDAC versus team Fido.
• 8:32
  And I mean, we know it's going to happen, right?
• 8:35
  I mean, I hope I know what happened.
• 8:36
  You're representing IDSC, so definitely need a better showing
• 8:39
  than than last year. Look, in Megan's defense, she
• 8:43
  walked away with the tiniest trophies we've ever seen.
• 8:45
  So her team has those. So we'll see.
• 8:49
  I I love the snack talk, though. So Megan, if you're watching
• 8:51
  under listening, you know, feel free to respond comments below
• 8:54
  or maybe something I'll link to him.
• 8:55
  Maybe we can, you know, draw up some healthy competition was put
• 8:58
  that way. You know, I, I think the biggest
• 9:03
  thing that I wanted to throw out, so I knew you were going to
• 9:04
  talk about one more conference coming up with Zimfosec World.
• 9:08
  We really appreciate all of the partnership that all these
• 9:14
  groups putting on these conferences have shown us,
• 9:18
  especially, you know, the CRA with the, all the conferences
• 9:24
  you mentioned, plus all the ones that are coming up.
• 9:27
  I mean, it's another thing that's going on with the
• 9:30
  conference or I'm sorry with the podcast that, you know, it's the
• 9:34
  listeners, it's the guests, it's the partnership with different
• 9:39
  conference organizers. Like we've pulled all this
• 9:41
  together and it's it's all four of the listeners really.
• 9:45
  That's why we do it. But it wouldn't be able to
• 9:49
  happen without this partnership. So definitely grateful for all
• 9:52
  of that. Yeah, shout out to especially
• 9:54
  Shirley at the CRA and Adrian at Final Alliance.
• 9:59
  Those two have been really fun to work with.
• 10:01
  And you know, the other reasons why we do fun things at
• 10:04
  conferences, I'll be honest, I don't really want to give a talk
• 10:08
  an identity. I feel like there's a lot of
• 10:09
  that already. I would much rather have a good
• 10:12
  time and sort of, you know, be a little bit more on the
• 10:14
  entertainment side and, you know, try to relax and make the
• 10:17
  conference something fun. And, you know, both Adrian and
• 10:20
  Shirley have been awesome work with, they've both been really
• 10:22
  open to new ideas, right, game shows and things like that.
• 10:25
  So plus they're just fun people and, you know, great to work
• 10:28
  with. So shout out to Shirley and
• 10:30
  shout out to Adrian. You know, we've all been all
• 10:32
  about the edutainment. There can be plenty of education
• 10:36
  that you know, the, the folks are showing at the these
• 10:38
  conferences and giving the presentations, whether it's
• 10:41
  success stories or new ideas around architectures or trending
• 10:46
  topics, they, they know them better than we do.
• 10:49
  And so you're getting plenty of education.
• 10:51
  So our sessions are more the entertainment variety.
• 10:57
  More of a pulse of of the people type thing, you know, what are
• 11:00
  people thinking with the different, you know, game shows
• 11:02
  that we've done and surveys and things like that.
• 11:04
  So they're fun. I like to do them.
• 11:06
  We'll do them when we until we get told we can't do them
• 11:08
  anymore and then we'll figure something else out from there.
• 11:10
  But you know, next thing you know, we'll have a Netflix
• 11:12
  special, you know, IDAC, you know, after dark and it'll be
• 11:16
  kind of like that midnight game show where it's just, you know,
• 11:18
  people pontificating and making jokes.
• 11:20
  But yes, Speaking of CRA, Infosec World 2025, that's
• 11:24
  coming up at the I believe it's the end of October that is in
• 11:27
  Orlando. So we'll be there and recording
• 11:30
  some episodes very similar to like Ideniverse.
• 11:32
  I have not been to that conference.
• 11:33
  I'm looking forward to it. I think it's more broader,
• 11:35
  obviously information security, but guess what I am as part of
• 11:38
  that world. So we're going to be there.
• 11:40
  So I hope people come and check it out.
• 11:43
  We got identifiers after that in DC, so be there for that as
• 11:47
  well. That is in November.
• 11:49
  And then I think closing off our conference Circuit of the year
• 11:52
  with Gartner and the IM Summit in Grapevine, TX.
• 11:55
  So we met with our friend Rebecca a little earlier today
• 11:59
  to kind of game plan through, you know, the game that we're
• 12:02
  going to run there and that's going to be a fun one.
• 12:04
  So lots of conferences, lots of different things are going on.
• 12:08
  I didn't mention discount codes because they're hard to remember
• 12:11
  what spot. But if you just remember one
• 12:13
  thing I DAC podcast.com, just Scroll down.
• 12:16
  Everything that I have that's available is going to be down
• 12:19
  there at the Gartner 1 is not up yet.
• 12:20
  I think that one becomes available in October.
• 12:22
  So once October rolls around, there'll be a Gartner one edit
• 12:24
  as well. But check it out.
• 12:26
  Great way to show support the show and show that we can, you
• 12:28
  know, have a good time and bring people to conferences and and
• 12:32
  meet all the friendly faces that we, you know, see us still
• 12:35
  images on LinkedIn and teams and other different things that
• 12:38
  happen. Yeah, I was at a meeting this
• 12:41
  week and kind of saw saw some people that I've been meeting
• 12:45
  with in Teams. And then there's one person I
• 12:48
  met who, you know, I've been on punny teams calls with and he
• 12:53
  was like 6-7. And I was like, whoa, I didn't
• 12:56
  realize you were that tall. You're talking about our friend
• 12:59
  Dan. Yes.
• 13:00
  Everybody has the same height on on a team's window.
• 13:03
  And then you get into real life, like, OK, wow, I didn't realize
• 13:06
  Jeff was that short or, you know, Jim was that tall.
• 13:09
  I'm not. I'm not really that tall.
• 13:11
  Yeah, you're what, 6/2? Yeah, yeah, look, everyone is
• 13:14
  tall when you're 5-6 like me so well, Dan.
• 13:17
  Dan's like 6-7. Yeah, no, Dan was great.
• 13:20
  Very tall guy. Yeah, he's an awesome guy too.
• 13:22
  Yeah, so we did an episode with him not too long ago, Dan
• 13:25
  Lauritsen, part of our series with RSM and so go back and
• 13:28
  check that out. But that's very cool to see
• 13:30
  people like that in in, in real life and and get their
• 13:32
  autographs for being on the podcast, which is fun.
• 13:36
  All right, let's get into a mailbag.
• 13:38
  We got a bunch of questions from people literally around the
• 13:41
  world. So again, if people have
• 13:44
  questions or they just want our thoughts on something, send them
• 13:47
  to us on LinkedIn, drop us an e-mail, drop us a contact form
• 13:50
  thing on our website. We try to queue these up from
• 13:53
  time to time. The more we get and as we get
• 13:55
  gaps in our schedule where we can address them, you know,
• 13:57
  that's kind of where this is at. So now with no more further ado,
• 14:02
  let's get Jim's $0.02 on a couple of these questions.
• 14:06
  I'll read off the questions, Jim, and then you give me your
• 14:08
  thoughts on it and then if I have anything to add, I will and
• 14:11
  we'll just kind of go through it that way.
• 14:12
  Is that cool sounds? Good.
• 14:13
  Yeah, I'll do it. OK.
• 14:15
  So first up, this is Matt in Maine.
• 14:18
  He knows who he is. I know who.
• 14:20
  He is right. How does a successful IM program
• 14:25
  engage the broader IT department regarding key concepts?
• 14:30
  So, additional context here. I recently volunteered to do a
• 14:32
  short presentation in an architect forum on what SSO is
• 14:36
  and how it works. This is the result of having a
• 14:39
  conversation with a software architect who recommended to a
• 14:41
  software owner that she worked with me to set up SSO on work
• 14:45
  day. We've had SSO set up on work day
• 14:47
  since we acquired it seven years ago, and this architect logs
• 14:50
  into it weekly like everyone else.
• 14:53
  Wow, a lot of context right there.
• 14:57
  That is a lot of context. Matt and I went back and forth
• 14:59
  and noticed. I'm not going to cut a keynote,
• 15:01
  get into all the nitty gritty details.
• 15:02
  But I guess before I even answer my first question is I'm not
• 15:06
  sure if the person is an architect if they're not clear
• 15:09
  on what SSO is. And the fact that they were
• 15:12
  logging into it already and had been for seven years apparently
• 15:18
  leads me to kind of wonder if there is some more education
• 15:20
  that needs to be done around identity and access management
• 15:24
  and maybe just general IT architecture networking.
• 15:29
  I'm not sure what it is, but what are your thoughts on how
• 15:31
  does the successful IM program engage the broader IT department
• 15:35
  regarding key concepts when it comes to identity?
• 15:38
  So hey, Matt, glad to get your question.
• 15:42
  And I think the first thing it kind of goes to the point you
• 15:45
  were making, Jeff, which is that, you know, Matt said I'm
• 15:49
  doing a presentation through the IT department.
• 15:51
  So we shouldn't start off with the assumption that because
• 15:55
  you're in the IT department, you know how everything works.
• 15:58
  Like you could be a software person, you could be a network
• 16:01
  person, you could be a mainframe person, you could be, make this
• 16:05
  a mainframe architect and he could run us in circles when it
• 16:09
  comes to mainframe architecture. And he really doesn't care who
• 16:14
  about he or she doesn't care who about, you know, single sign on.
• 16:21
  Having said that, you know, I, I think you need to start with
• 16:24
  some of the basics, you know, kind of like educating people on
• 16:30
  what is the business value of single sign on.
• 16:33
  I remember we used to run into questions early on in the single
• 16:37
  sign on days like, OK, isn't it worse to give people one
• 16:42
  username password to 100 systems than 100 username and passwords?
• 16:47
  Because if they lose 1, the blaster is is limited to that
• 16:54
  one system. I think the it's kind of like a
• 16:57
  psychology thing. If you have to manage 100
• 16:59
  usernames and passwords, you're probably using, you know, the
• 17:05
  same username password across multiple systems and your
• 17:08
  ability to kind of provide all of the features that you need in
• 17:12
  a holistic IM program like monitoring, like use your life
• 17:17
  cycle management, like having the right authentication
• 17:20
  policies and the ability to enforce them.
• 17:24
  Those things probably go out the window for most of those 100
• 17:28
  users and passwords. So it's kind of like here's why
• 17:31
  single sign on is good. Let me think, there are multiple
• 17:34
  forms of single sign on. There's Samuel single sign on
• 17:38
  and there is Oauth 2 or open ID single sign on.
• 17:46
  So there's a browser based set of redirections.
• 17:49
  So if you're starting to get into like application
• 17:51
  architecture and kind of how these things manifest, whether
• 17:56
  it's like browser based or there's some back end token
• 18:01
  sharing happening, I think that's a a big part of that
• 18:05
  explanation. I just, you know, it depends on
• 18:07
  who you're speaking to and as you start to whittle down that
• 18:11
  field to a smaller group, that's where you start getting into the
• 18:15
  specific details. If you're talking to a big large
• 18:19
  audience, you have to kind of keep it.
• 18:20
  I think even like a big large audience who is quote UN quote
• 18:23
  IT, you need to keep it at A at a business level to start your
• 18:28
  thoughts. I think this is an excellent
• 18:32
  example of sometimes we take people in knowledge for granted
• 18:37
  in the IM space, especially when you get surrounded into IT at
• 18:40
  large. Look, not everybody knows
• 18:43
  identity and that's fine, right? I think that's something that we
• 18:45
  all need to think about is how do we educate and inform other
• 18:49
  people in the organization as to what they're working on, stuff
• 18:52
  like that. So for sure, you know, I maybe I
• 18:56
  was a little bit rough, like how does this person become anarchy
• 18:58
  step without knowing SSO is I guess there's a possibility
• 19:01
  there, but it's also a good reminder to say, OK, what has
• 19:04
  the IAM program done to inform IT, whatever that looks like as
• 19:09
  to what the IAM program has been doing, what its capabilities
• 19:12
  are, what it's, you know, different features and
• 19:15
  functionalities that have been rolled out so that they can, you
• 19:18
  know, be part of that messaging as well.
• 19:20
  I think we focus a lot on end user training and making sure
• 19:23
  the end user understands it. There's probably a really
• 19:27
  significant Gray area when it comes to IT training for
• 19:31
  identity and access management concepts, features and
• 19:35
  functionalities and things like that.
• 19:36
  So I think it's a good opportunity to say, OK, we
• 19:39
  noticed the gap here. How do we address it?
• 19:42
  Is it, you know, something where we need to have more
• 19:44
  conversations with, you know, I'll call it IT in parentheses
• 19:48
  or quotation Marks and making sure they understand what are
• 19:53
  the different capabilities that the OEM program has and, and
• 19:56
  things like that. So I try to look at from the
• 19:59
  aspect of, yeah, OK, what, what did we miss here and how do we
• 20:03
  make sure that we account for that next time?
• 20:06
  Yeah. I mean, there's all kinds of
• 20:08
  goals that could come out of why you're doing that presentation
• 20:11
  in the 1st place. One of the goals might be you
• 20:14
  need to stop doing this shadow IT thing.
• 20:16
  Setting up applications that are completely outside of the the
• 20:21
  realm of our single sign on are completely outside the realm of
• 20:25
  how we do identity access management, logging in,
• 20:28
  monitoring. You know, people understand like
• 20:32
  why we use centralized single sign on multi factor
• 20:35
  authentication. It may start to add up that hey,
• 20:39
  if I go out and set up a sales force account with my credit
• 20:43
  card, that is not a good thing for the following reasons.
• 20:48
  I mean, that's just smacking with policy.
• 20:52
  Don't, don't go sign up for stuff that you're not prepared
• 20:54
  to support, because we all know that they're going to continue
• 20:56
  to do that. They're they're never going to
• 20:58
  sign up for a service and then you ask for IT to help them out
• 21:01
  down the road. That would never happen in the
• 21:02
  real world, would it? Yeah, right.
• 21:06
  All right, So hopefully, I know that was actually several months
• 21:09
  back that Matt had sent that. So he and I conversed and
• 21:12
  hopefully that helps Matt, you know, going forward.
• 21:15
  Let's get to the next one here. Amara in India asks what are the
• 21:20
  key factors that influence an individual's trust in a new
• 21:25
  digital identity system? And what can governments or
• 21:29
  organizations do to encourage wider adoption without being
• 21:33
  overly intrusive? You.
• 21:35
  Know you could go. First, good luck SO.
• 21:37
  No, I, I know Amara too. And so I don't really know her
• 21:43
  personally, but I know her from LinkedIn.
• 21:47
  I think a big part of building trust, it's just like any other
• 21:52
  part of human interaction. It's, you know, trust is earned.
• 21:56
  So it does build over time. But I think they're kind of like
• 22:00
  some fundamental concepts within identity or within technology in
• 22:08
  general that help you earn trust.
• 22:11
  And one of the first things is privacy, like knowing where your
• 22:15
  personal data is going to end up.
• 22:20
  Does the organization have a privacy statement?
• 22:26
  Is it clear? Or is it one of those 20 page
• 22:29
  documents like we can sell your information to third parties And
• 22:34
  so it's the privacy, but it's also how you communicate it.
• 22:37
  And then I think one thing that maybe takes that to the next
• 22:42
  level because that's like a big area in the, a big topic in the
• 22:45
  area of customer identity and access management is privacy and
• 22:52
  consent. So it's also the consent of
• 22:54
  saying, here's the data that I'm OK that you share, but I also
• 22:59
  have the ability to say forget me.
• 23:01
  So a lot of the things that we saw driven in GDPR are still
• 23:07
  very important and very relevant.
• 23:11
  Whether you need to be in compliance with GDPR or not,
• 23:14
  you'll be thinking about what were the drivers that that
• 23:19
  influence the design of GDPR. And it's like what people expect
• 23:23
  and why do people expect those things and how do those
• 23:27
  influence whether or not you're going to have trust for the
• 23:30
  organization? Now I also think, now let me
• 23:33
  bolt on something to that, which is if you do suffer A breach and
• 23:38
  many organizations do suffer a breach, how do those things get
• 23:42
  handled afterwards? Do you try to cover it up or do
• 23:45
  you, are you very transparent with your users and with the
• 23:49
  public in terms of what happened and what you're doing to rectify
• 23:53
  the situation? And for me, when I see that
• 23:57
  there's a cover up or it's a couple days, so there's any kind
• 24:00
  of communication, if people are left in the dark, I think that I
• 24:05
  start losing trust for that organization.
• 24:09
  Well, you have to be careful about the word cover up because
• 24:13
  that implies that there is some sort of, you know, conspiracy
• 24:17
  that might be taking place. I think this is an area that a
• 24:19
  lot of organizations struggle with is how do you report on a
• 24:22
  breach? Frankly, most suck at it.
• 24:27
  They're just not good. They either wait too long or
• 24:30
  they share incomplete information or they share
• 24:33
  information so quickly that the information is made incorrect.
• 24:38
  When they shared it, they might have thought it was correct at
• 24:39
  the time, but things change. And so I think breach response
• 24:43
  and breach communications are one part of it.
• 24:47
  But it comes down to the trust. I don't know if we'll ever fully
• 24:51
  solve it. Just to be honest with you.
• 24:52
  Like, I don't think we will ever fully solve it because they're
• 24:56
  the concept of privacy does not exist in every society, in every
• 25:01
  country around the world. I don't know what it's like in
• 25:04
  India, if that's specifically, you know, what she's asking for.
• 25:06
  I don't know, you know specifically what they're
• 25:08
  working on. But at any I can point to the US
• 25:11
  as a reference at any given .50% of the population is for the
• 25:14
  government and 50% is against it.
• 25:16
  So and it doesn't matter who's in charge.
• 25:18
  So that idea of trusts becomes OK, well, who do you trust and
• 25:22
  why? And I just don't know if we will
• 25:25
  ever get to the point where, you know, maybe trust is too loaded
• 25:29
  of a word. You know, maybe it's more like
• 25:31
  tolerate because I need it for, you know, a passport or a
• 25:35
  driver's license or some other piece of information.
• 25:37
  But I don't know if I don't know if there is really a spot where
• 25:43
  we get to the point where like all of our identity data is in
• 25:47
  the hands of 1 area. I think we're more headed to
• 25:50
  more of a Federated model where some bits of information are
• 25:53
  spread out a bunch of different, you know, networks, whether
• 25:56
  they're decentralized or not, that's a whole other bottle wax.
• 25:59
  But I, I, I don't know other than, you know, if you're, if
• 26:03
  you're talking about internally an organization, how do you
• 26:06
  build trust? If you make promises or make
• 26:09
  commitments, do them, right? If you're going to miss dates or
• 26:14
  whatever, communicate it, right? Don't, don't say I'm going to go
• 26:17
  build something and then forget about it.
• 26:20
  Or don't ask for feedback. Or if you get feedback, you
• 26:23
  don't consider it after you ask for it, right?
• 26:24
  I think this is just being what I would call just a decent human
• 26:27
  being and say if you're going to do something, do they do I trust
• 26:30
  that Jim is going to go off and do the thing that he's in charge
• 26:34
  of? I mean, yes, I hope so, right?
• 26:37
  But the same time now, Jim, it's on you as the person that's
• 26:40
  being trusted to do that. You've got to deliver if it's
• 26:43
  something you can handle by yourself, awesome, great.
• 26:46
  You have less dependencies the vast majority of the time.
• 26:49
  Now you're going to depend on other people.
• 26:50
  So now you've got other people that you're trusting to get
• 26:53
  their part done so you can get your part done to make part of a
• 26:56
  bigger thing, right? That's going to go out.
• 26:58
  So, you know, I think there's, it's a little bit bloated
• 27:00
  question, but that's kind of what I was thinking about when
• 27:03
  we said the word trust was like, oh, that's, that's a tough one.
• 27:06
  It's a. Tough one.
• 27:07
  I think, you know, your mind went directly to the government
• 27:12
  situation. I think primarily the federal
• 27:15
  government. It's just there's a history of
• 27:17
  like, you know, distrust of the federal government that goes
• 27:22
  back long before our time. But I think when you think
• 27:27
  about, and I'm not saying, I'm not saying that in any way to
• 27:32
  damn people who work for the federal government.
• 27:34
  So let me make that clear. It's just, I think it's a fact
• 27:38
  of life in the USI think when you think about that same
• 27:43
  mindset to your local governments or your healthcare
• 27:47
  provider or big tech or other companies that you trust with
• 27:51
  your information, the context changes.
• 27:55
  And I think transparency is a big thing.
• 27:58
  I think what's happening with your private data is a big
• 28:00
  thing. And I think how you handle an
• 28:02
  incident, if one does occur, it'd be a very big thing as
• 28:06
  well. Oh, for sure.
• 28:08
  I think it's a hard question to answer, yeah.
• 28:13
  It's hard question the. Idealist in me is, yes, at some
• 28:17
  point we'll figure out and get past all this because the
• 28:21
  benefits will be there that outweigh all the negatives.
• 28:24
  And I think that's also part of the wider adoption.
• 28:26
  Part of the question is why should I use this thing,
• 28:30
  whatever this thing is, right? Whether it's a product, whether
• 28:33
  it's something an identity rolling out, whether it's an
• 28:35
  identity program is standing up. Why?
• 28:38
  Why do I need this? Because that's the first
• 28:39
  question anyone's going to have is OK, cool.
• 28:42
  Like what does this do for me? And so I think you need to have
• 28:44
  your messaging and understand, are you delivering something
• 28:48
  that the organization both needs and wants?
• 28:53
  Because if they don't want it, they're going to find ways
• 28:55
  around whatever policies, whatever capabilities should put
• 28:57
  in place. So I think you really need to
• 28:59
  think about, you know, the, what is your target market look like?
• 29:02
  And are you delivering a product, in this case most
• 29:05
  likely an IM product that people actually want to consume and
• 29:09
  use? Yeah.
• 29:11
  You know, I'm also wondering, you know, if part of what Amara
• 29:16
  was getting at was decentralized identity, because I think in a
• 29:21
  lot of people's mind, that's the solution of owning your own
• 29:25
  identity and just allowing the attributes that you want to
• 29:29
  share with any given organization to be shared.
• 29:33
  My worry is that it starts getting to the point where it's
• 29:37
  like, just like it is today with all these cookie policies.
• 29:40
  Like you go to pay your electric bill and it's like you accept
• 29:44
  the cookies or you don't and eat it all.
• 29:50
  Day long. So that's the option that's.
• 29:53
  Your cookie policy, right, Right.
• 29:54
  Yeah. Yes, you're right.
• 29:58
  I, and some of this too, again, goes back to trusts.
• 30:02
  I picked on the government because I think that's the the
• 30:04
  easiest target, at least for me to think about.
• 30:05
  But the same applies to any social network.
• 30:08
  It applies to education, applies to healthcare, applies to
• 30:11
  finance. That's why I don't think it's
• 30:13
  going to end up being like 1. And I hate to use the word, the
• 30:15
  B word, but one blockchain, 1 decentralized identity, one
• 30:19
  decentralized Ledger, let's call it, right, that stores with us.
• 30:22
  I think we're going to end up with several and you're going to
• 30:27
  trust certain ledgers with certain pieces of data, but I
• 30:31
  find it highly unlikely that there will be 1 Ledger to sort
• 30:34
  of rule them all if you want to take a, a token reference to
• 30:37
  that one. And so no, go ahead.
• 30:41
  I was. Going to say, I think you used a
• 30:43
  great example there with social media slash big tech and I think
• 30:48
  that certain companies have over time damaged their reputation in
• 30:53
  terms of your privacy so much that rebuilding trust they
• 30:59
  happen to rebuilt trust it's and there's others that I think have
• 31:03
  done a better job over time. And I'm not going to name names,
• 31:06
  but because I suppose the one with the e-mail that's going to
• 31:10
  come from it. But I think that look, once you
• 31:13
  damage trust, it takes a long time to rebuild it.
• 31:17
  And if you really damage it, the words like you're selling
• 31:20
  people's private information out the back door, that's really
• 31:26
  hard to make up from it. So I think being very clear
• 31:29
  about what you're doing with people's data and giving them
• 31:32
  the ability to opt out of that, it is just fundamentally key.
• 31:39
  Yeah. And then?
• 31:40
  Do you trust that when you click that box that says don't sell my
• 31:42
  data, they're actually honoring it?
• 31:45
  Well then. Yeah, yeah.
• 31:46
  But if there's. One way to be overly intrusive,
• 31:48
  it's to do things with people's data that they that they didn't
• 31:51
  sign up for that they're not aware of.
• 31:54
  So good luck tomorrow. I, I don't know if that helped
• 31:57
  or not. I feel like we both got a little
• 31:58
  bit of soapbox there. But, you know, the, the idea of
• 32:01
  trust and getting things rolled out is, is challenging.
• 32:04
  And I'm going to focus my answer back more on like, if you're in
• 32:08
  an enterprise Oregon organization, you're trying to
• 32:10
  roll something out, then, you know, deliver on your
• 32:14
  commitments. Yeah.
• 32:15
  OK, so let's get to the next question.
• 32:17
  This one is from Sophie in France.
• 32:21
  For a country or a large organization looking to launch a
• 32:23
  new digital identity program, what are the most common
• 32:27
  practical challenges they will face in the first year?
• 32:30
  How can they plan for and address issues like technical
• 32:34
  integration with legacy systems, managing data migration, and
• 32:38
  ensuring the system can scale to millions of users?
• 32:42
  OK, so millions of users. That's a very large
• 32:44
  organization. Or maybe this is a customer
• 32:46
  solution, but where do you want to start with that one?
• 32:50
  You know, again, I'm not sure if this is going to be the specific
• 32:54
  answer that Sophie's looking for, but when I think about
• 32:57
  launching a new IM program or initiative, I think of a couple
• 33:02
  things. One is being the picture of
• 33:05
  where you're wanting to go, like what is the vision?
• 33:07
  What is it that you're trying to accomplish?
• 33:10
  So kind of making sure all that is architected out at whatever
• 33:14
  level you can and making sure that you're communicating that
• 33:18
  effectively to your stakeholders.
• 33:20
  They test number one, I think #2 is kind of what goes along with
• 33:26
  that, which is getting stakeholder alignment because
• 33:29
  you're going to have to, you know, rank an IM program.
• 33:32
  This isn't 4050 years ago where things slowed from the top down.
• 33:37
  Organizations are much more organized and kind of a matrix
• 33:42
  type organization. So you really can't get anything
• 33:45
  done of significance on your own.
• 33:48
  You need to have buy in, you need to work with others.
• 33:51
  So getting that buy in kind of building that, in other words,
• 33:54
  the politics of it all. And then the the last thing is
• 33:58
  like when you start to shift into execution, I don't think
• 34:03
  having like a Big Bang phase one approach is the right approach
• 34:07
  anymore. I think it's kind of like you
• 34:09
  have to design around getting into production with something.
• 34:12
  I think it's that you have to get these, what do you call it,
• 34:16
  like small wins or low hanging fruit people like to call it,
• 34:20
  it's not always the easiest thing and you just go after the
• 34:23
  easiest low hanging fruit thing. You know, that sometimes is the
• 34:26
  right move because you have to start earning some St. tread.
• 34:31
  So kind of what I did was when I was, you know, prior to my
• 34:35
  consulting days, my first IM program, I had to, I had some
• 34:41
  very skeptical application owners that said, all right,
• 34:45
  well, you know, we might turn over authentication to you, but
• 34:49
  we're not willing to turn over authorization.
• 34:53
  We still consider that to be part of the application.
• 34:56
  And as you know, like authentication, authorization,
• 34:59
  IM tools are designed to handle that as kind of core sweet spot
• 35:03
  and kind of delegating that out to every application to be a
• 35:08
  snowflake is not really the best approach.
• 35:12
  But if you say, all right, well, I'm going to accept this
• 35:16
  skepticism and I'm going to be really successful at launching
• 35:20
  authentication, you start to build, you know, the word from
• 35:24
  the last question, trust with those stakeholders.
• 35:27
  And now you can kind of leverage that trust to say, all right,
• 35:32
  let's keep going. Let's kind of go for that big
• 35:34
  vision that we've been talking about and kind of targeting from
• 35:38
  the very beginning. So those are my initial
• 35:41
  thoughts. Yeah, I think there's a lot that
• 35:44
  can go wrong and it will go wrong.
• 35:45
  And so be ready for that, especially in your first years,
• 35:49
  you're getting something rolled out is be flexible and build in
• 35:52
  time or capabilities or ideally both to address all the things
• 35:57
  that you didn't think of when I say you, meaning the
• 35:59
  organization, the program, whatever that looks like.
• 36:02
  When it comes to rolling this out, there will be things that
• 36:05
  will come up, they will come up early, they will come up in the
• 36:09
  middle and they will come up right before you launch.
• 36:11
  So be ready for it. And then I think, you know, the
• 36:15
  politics of getting things rolled out is also challenge.
• 36:17
  You need to get buying and support from a lot of different
• 36:20
  people in the organization to get things done, whether it's
• 36:22
  scope, whether it's getting applications integrated into
• 36:26
  your into your platform, you know, whether it is, you know,
• 36:30
  different data pieces that you want to pull in, right?
• 36:33
  All that stuff requires partnership with other parts of
• 36:37
  the organization to get that. And so, yeah, you've got to
• 36:39
  build trust. It can't just be, you show up
• 36:42
  and say here, I need this data and they're going to give it to
• 36:45
  you. They wouldn't be doing their
• 36:47
  jobs if they didn't question, well, what do you need this for?
• 36:50
  Why are you using it? What are you doing with it?
• 36:52
  And how are you going to protect my user experience and my users
• 36:55
  to make sure that my system doesn't break all valid
• 36:58
  questions, right? So you've got to be able to
• 37:00
  address, you know, all of that. Yeah.
• 37:03
  And if your response is those aren't your users, those are the
• 37:06
  organization users, you're missing the point.
• 37:09
  The point is like you don't want to be fighting with everybody.
• 37:13
  You need to kind of as much as possible build alliances with
• 37:17
  the folks that, hey, maybe they're giving you a hard time.
• 37:21
  This is really, I think we say, you know, anybody, you can come
• 37:24
  from any background, then be an IM program manager.
• 37:28
  But I think the people who make good IAM program managers
• 37:31
  realize that, you know, just because they don't get along
• 37:34
  with somebody doesn't mean I've got to fight them to, you know,
• 37:38
  get them to do what they should be doing or do what's right.
• 37:42
  Put the organization goals in mind and what you have to
• 37:45
  accomplish. And if sometimes you have to
• 37:48
  bite your tongue, then that's just the way it is.
• 37:51
  Yeah, I mean, you can go and fight everybody if you want, but
• 37:55
  real hard time, first of all, making any friends and getting
• 37:58
  anything done. So find, you know, areas that
• 38:01
  you can align on and honestly address the questions that come
• 38:05
  up. I think it's the other thing
• 38:06
  too, before you're not going to have all the answers.
• 38:09
  That'll be part of the things that you miss as you go through
• 38:11
  this. It happens to everybody.
• 38:13
  It's a lesson learned for next time.
• 38:14
  And you add that to your checklist for the next time.
• 38:16
  And then they'll be new things. You add those to the checklist,
• 38:19
  Jim and I have like a 15 step checklist just for recording
• 38:23
  this podcast because each thing on that on that checklist,
• 38:26
  something has happened to cause it to be on there.
• 38:28
  I joke with our guests. It's like the the the warning on
• 38:31
  the shampoo bottle that says don't drink shampoo, right?
• 38:34
  Jim's holding up his Airpods case are very early episodes.
• 38:37
  He was constantly flicking his, his Airpods, you know, the case
• 38:40
  and it was driving me crazy. And so there was a line at him.
• 38:42
  Jim, throw your iPods case across the room so it doesn't
• 38:45
  tempt you, right Though it's OK to get smarter.
• 38:48
  It's OK to get better. And I think recognize that you
• 38:51
  don't have all the answers. There will be things that are
• 38:54
  not able to be answered and that's OK.
• 38:58
  Just make sure that you understand that and you can you
• 39:00
  have viable alternatives or plans you can work around with
• 39:02
  it. OK, next question.
• 39:06
  We got two more here, Jonas. In Germany, in many parts of the
• 39:11
  world, a significant portion of the population doesn't have a
• 39:14
  smartphone or reliable Internet access.
• 39:16
  How can digital identity systems be designed to serve these
• 39:20
  offline populations, ensuring that digital inclusion doesn't
• 39:24
  become a barrier to accessing essential services like
• 39:27
  healthcare or banking? Another good one.
• 39:29
  Thanks, Jonas. Jim, where do you want to start
• 39:32
  with that one? People don't have access.
• 39:36
  By the way, these questions have been fantastic.
• 39:39
  I think it's a very real issue, and I think it's even a more
• 39:43
  real issue for governments. You know, Jeff, I think a lot of
• 39:48
  times when we're working with science, like, oh, there's some
• 39:52
  small percentage of the population that doesn't have
• 39:56
  smartphones and we usually come up with like a small workaround.
• 40:01
  I read an article recently about I think it was, well I'm not
• 40:05
  sure what nation it was in, but it was somewhere in Africa and
• 40:10
  it was actually mentioned that a lot of the citizenry.
• 40:14
  Chooses to have flip phones rather than smartphones because
• 40:18
  of the power consumption and they can keep a, a flip phone
• 40:22
  active for like a week on one charge.
• 40:25
  So it's a, it's a big thing. There's also scenarios I think
• 40:29
  that we've learned about where they're like clean rooms or
• 40:33
  things like prisons where folks can't bring in soft tokens.
• 40:38
  So I think one thing is that, so it's like sizing up what is your
• 40:43
  issue? Is it that one 2% of your user
• 40:46
  population is a much larger, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to
• 40:51
  sit here and make a case for multi factor authentication
• 40:56
  using SMS. But I do think multi factor
• 40:59
  authentication using SMS for say medium risk type access, medium
• 41:05
  assurance use cases is something that could be considered.
• 41:11
  So for example, if the data that you are securing is only your
• 41:18
  data, right? So in other words, there's no
• 41:20
  privilege access going on. I think an SMS might in some
• 41:25
  cases. It obviously depends on what
• 41:27
  that data is, but the overall risk of that access, the overall
• 41:32
  requirement for assurance of who's logging in.
• 41:35
  You could go for a lower assurance use case and a lower
• 41:40
  assurance form of authentication.
• 41:45
  If you have a very small user population with higher risk
• 41:49
  access, consider using heart tokens, UV keys, or some other
• 41:54
  form of heart token like an RSA token, something like that.
• 42:00
  But I, you know, I think those are probably some of the, the
• 42:04
  key scenarios. Like are you looking at a large
• 42:06
  user population that doesn't have smartphones where you can
• 42:10
  do soft tokens and authenticator apps?
• 42:13
  Or are you looking at a very large, a very large group or a
• 42:17
  very small group? And what is the requirement for
• 42:21
  the level of assurance? Are these privileged
• 42:23
  administrators? Are these people who have access
• 42:27
  to a lot of data, such as data, or are they just accessing their
• 42:31
  own data? Maybe it's a rewards program,
• 42:34
  something like that. Hey, SMS is probably going to
• 42:37
  work. And by the way, SMS works on
• 42:40
  flip phones as well. So those are some of the
• 42:42
  thoughts that come to my mind. I don't have a good answer for
• 42:47
  this because the last I checked and I did some research on this
• 42:49
  actually from a stats perspective to see about let's
• 42:53
  see, 1/3 of the world's population does not have
• 42:57
  Internet access. So roughly 2.6 to 2.7 billion.
• 43:01
  And these are stats from bank myself and Statista or Statista,
• 43:06
  I'm not sure how you pronounce the website.
• 43:07
  So I kind of looked at this, but basically a third of people do
• 43:11
  not have Internet access. So if I don't have Internet
• 43:15
  access, how do I do anything in today's world and not get left
• 43:20
  behind? That is the billion dollar
• 43:23
  question because I think this is something we also discussed in
• 43:25
  Germany when we're at EIC earlier this year.
• 43:28
  One of our podcast, and I don't remember exactly where it came
• 43:30
  up in those conversations, but was how do you connect the
• 43:34
  unconnected and cell phone? Sure.
• 43:38
  I think the stat I saw was like 88% of the people have a cell
• 43:43
  phone doesn't really differentiate between a
• 43:45
  smartphone and a dumb phone as we'll call it.
• 43:48
  So there is a lot of work to go there.
• 43:51
  I don't think it's viable to say, well, I'm just going to
• 43:53
  ship on Ubikey like that doesn't make sense to do what they don't
• 43:57
  have a computer going to deal with that Ubikey right.
• 44:00
  So I think I think it's a real problem The the answer I I don't
• 44:05
  know what it is. I, I don't know if I have a good
• 44:07
  answer for Jonas here because it's, it's a question that I see
• 44:11
  answered and I'd love to hear from anybody who has ideas on
• 44:14
  this. I think there was a project
• 44:15
  called Worldcoin or something like that where Sam Altman had
• 44:19
  some sort of like retinal eye scanner thing that he was
• 44:22
  sending to all different cities around the world to do some sort
• 44:25
  of like in person identity verification.
• 44:27
  I don't know enough about it, but it seemed to me like that
• 44:30
  wasn't a good solution. So I don't know what the answer
• 44:34
  is If you, if I don't have Internet and I and I don't have
• 44:37
  a phone, you know, you know, I'm going to get, they're going to
• 44:43
  get. I just jumped to scenarios.
• 44:45
  Here, which is that you do have Internet, but I mean it's a good
• 44:48
  question like where, what is your Internet access?
• 44:51
  Is it your flip phone? Is it like kind of a browser?
• 44:54
  And do you remember going into the browser on your flip phone
• 44:57
  when flip phones were evolving? It was pretty rough.
• 45:00
  You had to hit the five key like 3 times to get to the third
• 45:04
  letter on that button. Yeah, A.
• 45:06
  Little T9 predictive text. I mean, you're talking to wrong
• 45:08
  person with that because, you know, I rocked Windows Mobile
• 45:11
  way, way back in the day. So, you know, before that we had
• 45:14
  Palm and stuff like that. But you're totally right.
• 45:16
  And I would argue probably the vast majority of people don't
• 45:19
  have computers. They probably only access the
• 45:22
  Internet on their phone and. And if.
• 45:25
  They don't have a a relatively modern smartphone and I'd I'd
• 45:28
  say you know something that's running either iOS or most
• 45:31
  likely Android because iOS is mostly AUS thing.
• 45:36
  Most people are running an Android phone of some sort.
• 45:38
  They may be several years out of date then they may not have all
• 45:42
  the security patches. They may be prone to all sorts
• 45:44
  of backdoors and things that get left behind even from the OS
• 45:48
  makers where they just say, yeah, it's been 7 years of
• 45:51
  updates, It's been five years of updates.
• 45:53
  We just, we're not going to patch those anymore.
• 45:56
  And so that leaves not only a, a, a large percentage of the
• 45:59
  population with extremely limited functionality from an
• 46:03
  access standpoint, they don't have the latest security
• 46:05
  patches. And so they are ripe for, you
• 46:08
  know, a lot of problems and, and people take advantage of them.
• 46:12
  Yeah, One thing that came to mind is we're talking about
• 46:15
  people don't have the Internet access was maybe kiosk is part
• 46:19
  of the answer, but it's it's all part of the answer, right.
• 46:23
  It's the identity practitioners on the ground of, or technology
• 46:28
  practitioners really even more broadly, solving these problems.
• 46:33
  Shout out to them because you have to take all these parts and
• 46:37
  pieces and wire together what your solution is going to be.
• 46:41
  And it may not be perfect. I will say that, you know, when
• 46:45
  you're a government trying to address the population, you,
• 46:49
  you're always striving for as perfect as it can be, as
• 46:53
  inclusive as it can be, leaving out large segments of your
• 46:57
  population is not, not fair, right?
• 47:01
  And so, and I don't say that to not the people who are coming up
• 47:07
  with these solutions. Obviously they're doing their
• 47:09
  best, but that is the challenge. Yeah, I think it's, you know,
• 47:14
  this is the word inclusion comes in.
• 47:16
  It's like how do you design systems that are inclusive of as
• 47:20
  many people as possible for the people who can't be included?
• 47:24
  What are the organization's governments, whatever that looks
• 47:28
  like, doing to bring those people with them?
• 47:31
  Because I'm sure it doesn't make sense.
• 47:33
  Like if I was building on a system and say, OK, well, we're
• 47:35
  always going to have 1/3 of our population never able to use
• 47:38
  this product like that is that sounds stupid to me.
• 47:42
  Like from a from like even just on making money, capitalistic
• 47:45
  kind of approach. But even from a coverage of the
• 47:46
  government, supposed to be government of all the people.
• 47:48
  What are you doing to bring that third up to at least some level
• 47:53
  of parity to be able to access a service?
• 47:56
  Because if I don't do that, the other 2/3 of my audience are
• 48:00
  never going to reap the full benefit of a 100% solution or a
• 48:03
  solution as more people take advantage of it.
• 48:06
  You know, we look at mobile driver's license, for example,
• 48:08
  here in the US we're what a decade it feels like into this.
• 48:11
  And I, I think it's only what 1415 states that have it only 35
• 48:17
  or whatever more to go. So it means we're still decades
• 48:20
  away from that because not everybody has gotten on board of
• 48:23
  supporting that, you know, that concept.
• 48:25
  So I think it's AI think it's multi pronged approach.
• 48:28
  I think we need a ton of solutions, but I also need to
• 48:30
  think we look at the problems say, OK, why don't these
• 48:33
  populations have Internet access?
• 48:35
  What are we doing to give them some level of access so they can
• 48:39
  access resources for people who don't have cell phones or have
• 48:42
  older cell phones? What are we doing to either
• 48:45
  replace or update those phones, whatever.
• 48:47
  And hey, this all comes down to money and taxes and that makes
• 48:51
  everyone really happy all the time.
• 48:52
  So I'll just leave it at that point.
• 48:54
  But there are so many factors here that it's it's it's almost
• 48:57
  impossible for me to even have a coherent thought about it.
• 49:01
  Do you have a digital driver's license right now?
• 49:03
  Nope. Not available in North Carolina.
• 49:07
  When I was at the airport yesterday, I saw a lot of people
• 49:10
  using them and I had technology envy big time.
• 49:15
  Yeah, I mean, and look, I'm a nerd.
• 49:17
  I want as much things, you know, as I can digitize as much as
• 49:20
  possible. I don't write anything down.
• 49:21
  Everything is notes that I type. I can type that so that I can
• 49:24
  write. So I'm with that.
• 49:27
  You know, we, we had the REAL ID here in the US you know, that
• 49:30
  theoretically was supposed to launch in May when we were at
• 49:34
  EIC. And, you know, that's been
• 49:35
  postponed several times because we've only had 20 years to get
• 49:39
  that right. And we still haven't figured out
• 49:40
  how to do that. And at least here in North
• 49:42
  Carolina, you know, trying to get an appointment with the DMV
• 49:45
  takes literally months. And of course, if you're the
• 49:47
  kind of person to waste the last second to get anything done,
• 49:51
  yeah, Now you can't board a plane because you have a
• 49:53
  reality. So they've actually like relaxed
• 49:56
  restrictions because we don't have our, you know what together
• 50:00
  to support that. OK, I'm going to get off my
• 50:05
  soapbox in that one because I'm starting to get angry.
• 50:08
  Rachel, in Canada, this is the last one.
• 50:10
  Oh, this won't be controversial at all.
• 50:12
  Biometric data like fingerprints or facial scans is often used in
• 50:16
  digital identity systems because it's so unique.
• 50:19
  What are the fundamental pros and cons of using biometrics for
• 50:22
  identity verification? And what are the main security
• 50:25
  considerations organizations must address when storing this
• 50:28
  kind of sensitive data? OK, biometrics, not
• 50:32
  controversial at all. How do you want to respond to
• 50:34
  Rachel? Well, if she asks about the pros
• 50:38
  and cons, I think the pros are increased security, increased
• 50:43
  convenience. I love using fingerprint on, you
• 50:47
  know, rather than having to type in the password.
• 50:51
  And I think it's more more secure than relying just on
• 50:55
  passwords. I think the risks are, you know,
• 50:59
  if that data were to fall into the wrong hands risk that, you
• 51:03
  know, you're being surveilled. I think those are some of the
• 51:07
  key risks. You know, I think that the best
• 51:12
  practices for managing it well, one thing is it could keep the
• 51:19
  the biometrics on the device rather than uploading it to use
• 51:24
  some kind of central server. So you see a lot of solutions
• 51:28
  keeping the biometric on the device and then communicating to
• 51:31
  the back end with some secure channel.
• 51:36
  I think that if you do have to put it on the security channel
• 51:41
  now you're very dependent on that organization doing a good
• 51:45
  job of securing your biometric data.
• 51:48
  So you're hoping that they're doing something like tokenizing
• 51:51
  it and things like that. So high level response to that
• 51:57
  question is a good question. I mean, it's, you know, you see
• 52:00
  it propping up more and more every day.
• 52:02
  And I think that it's got, it's getting to the point it's like,
• 52:07
  well, you know, it's definitely a train that is too far out of
• 52:11
  the gate to stop. I think that's a good thing.
• 52:14
  But I think these questions on, you know, how secure is my data,
• 52:20
  They're just completely legitimate questions.
• 52:24
  Yeah. It seems kind of like a running
• 52:25
  theme here with some of these questions is trust.
• 52:27
  Do you trust wherever the state is being stored?
• 52:30
  Look, I like biometrics. I think it's a great technology,
• 52:32
  a great solution. It's easy.
• 52:34
  It's, you know, you, you can't forget your face as much as
• 52:37
  maybe I might want to. Your face is with you all the
• 52:40
  time. Or your fingerprint, right?
• 52:41
  Or your voice or whatever that may be.
• 52:43
  Is it perfect? No, of course not.
• 52:45
  Nothing is. But is it better than, you know,
• 52:48
  a password? Heck yeah.
• 52:50
  I mean, how many people want to keep remembering passwords or
• 52:53
  have to change them or have to use upper or lower and then you,
• 52:56
  you know, have all the different problems with that.
• 52:58
  So there is an obvious Bennett to biometrics with the
• 53:03
  assumption that the biometric data is being processed and
• 53:07
  stored securely and that there is some transparency how it's
• 53:12
  being used. Again, it's your data.
• 53:15
  So what happens if your face gets stolen?
• 53:19
  I can't really go change my face as much as I want to, you know,
• 53:22
  this is this is it. So if that biometric data
• 53:26
  becomes compromised somehow and someone's able to duplicate it,
• 53:29
  whether it's, you know, figure out how to unencrypt the
• 53:32
  information or whatever it may be, that's a real problem.
• 53:36
  And we need to have some ideas around how do we make sure that,
• 53:41
  you know, there's some, some indicator somewhere that says,
• 53:44
  you know, Jeff's face is compromised in more ways than
• 53:47
  one, right? So how do we, you know, how do
• 53:50
  you address those sorts of things?
• 53:51
  Same thing with fingerprints. You know, voices can be altered,
• 53:54
  right? All that stuff.
• 53:56
  So it's a very sticky situation. I think in the end, benefits are
• 54:01
  good and it gun comes down to trust.
• 54:04
  Yeah, If you put everything to a centralized database and then
• 54:07
  that centralized database gets breached, what are you going to
• 54:11
  do? Add?
• 54:11
  To it, this whole new concern, which is that of deep fakes, I
• 54:17
  can, you know, create an AI avatar of your face, of your
• 54:23
  voice, maybe not your thumbprint, but you can see this
• 54:29
  is a big time concern. Then quantum computing.
• 54:32
  How's that going to affect it? One thing I would say is like,
• 54:35
  you know, you and I are very good about talking about these
• 54:39
  topics and more or less the abstract.
• 54:42
  We have the sponsors spotlight episodes where our partners,
• 54:48
  our, you know, technology vendors come in to talk about
• 54:52
  their specific solution, how they solve these problems.
• 54:55
  And we try to keep those episodes educational on, Hey,
• 55:00
  here's the the topic in the industry, as well as giving the
• 55:04
  opportunity for our sponsors to talk about how they solve that
• 55:10
  specific problem with their technology.
• 55:12
  We also try to keep some entertaining as well.
• 55:16
  So I'd say if you've kind of heard any of the topics today,
• 55:20
  if you're coming from a technology vendor and you're
• 55:22
  like, guys, you need to talk about you fill in the blank,
• 55:27
  reach out to us. You know, we we should talk
• 55:30
  about the sponsor spotlight episodes, but none of what we
• 55:34
  talked about so far has been sponsored.
• 55:37
  Yeah, I almost sound like a like that was a shameless plug there
• 55:39
  for more sponsors. But there are a lot of options
• 55:42
  in this space and you just, there's no silver bullet, you
• 55:48
  know, as of at least September and recording September 19th of
• 55:52
  2025, there's a lot of really good options.
• 55:55
  And I think layering those options is the approach here to
• 55:57
  make sure that you try to get as many people involved as possible
• 56:03
  served in one way or another with whatever capability makes
• 56:06
  the most sense. And just understand and know
• 56:08
  that you're not going to be able to get everybody.
• 56:10
  And then, you know, some of it is going to be under control.
• 56:12
  Like, I can't solve every single problem in the world as much as
• 56:15
  I want to. There are other things that need
• 56:17
  to happen to make that, you know, to make that problem
• 56:20
  become something that is solvable.
• 56:22
  And it may take days, months, years, decades, lifetimes, you
• 56:27
  know, but we see that. But progress marches on.
• 56:29
  Sometimes it doesn't move as quickly as we want it to, but it
• 56:31
  does move on. And you know, hopefully people
• 56:35
  can can take some sort of solace in that.
• 56:37
  I feel like it's a little of a downer these last couple
• 56:40
  questions, but hopefully that helps.
• 56:43
  Yeah, One thing I just, you just reminded me I'll I'll be quick
• 56:46
  is and maybe I won't be so quick, but is that a lot of
• 56:53
  times talking about the happy path.
• 56:55
  So whether it's like the biometric authentication, things
• 56:58
  like that, it's the unhappy path.
• 57:01
  It's how do I call the help desk and say I need my password to
• 57:05
  reset things like that. That's how the breaches are
• 57:09
  primarily taking place today. It's social engineering.
• 57:12
  If you can take out the social, if you can take out like the
• 57:15
  fishing, then all they have left is the social engineering.
• 57:18
  If you're, if your main process is too hard to hack, make sure
• 57:24
  that your help desk isn't getting hacked.
• 57:26
  Make sure that you've got enough controls at the place where you
• 57:32
  can get socially engineered to let somebody in your
• 57:35
  organization is basically open the front door.
• 57:39
  Do what you can to solve that problem.
• 57:41
  And a lot of times that's process and there's a lot of
• 57:44
  technology out there that can support that as well.
• 57:48
  Yeah, you've seen a number of those things come through.
• 57:50
  And chances are the way you're going to get breached is through
• 57:52
  a human social engineering gives up a password, uses a bad
• 57:56
  password, you know, clicks the MFA prompt that we said we'll
• 57:59
  solve all of our problems. And yet somebody goes and says,
• 58:01
  yeah, sure, go ahead, right. There's just you can't, you
• 58:05
  can't ignore the human factor. And so people will unfortunately
• 58:08
  always be the weak link, at least until the all the AIS take
• 58:11
  over and then we don't have to worry about it.
• 58:13
  They'll just tell us what we can and can't do.
• 58:14
  So I'm surprised we didn't have an AI question really in this
• 58:16
  bunch, but that might be refreshing for people.
• 58:19
  Yeah, right. For sure.
• 58:21
  All right. Let's wrap things up ending on a
• 58:25
  lighter note. We were kind of pontificating
• 58:27
  before we hit record here what we want to go with, and I think
• 58:31
  we started down the air travel route of problems that you and I
• 58:35
  have experienced. And maybe some of these are
• 58:36
  recent, maybe not, but let's start there and let's maybe
• 58:39
  treat this a little bit like we're ahead of time.
• 58:41
  But Festivus, you know, we've got the airing of the
• 58:44
  grievances. Let's just start with generally
• 58:47
  speaking, what are some air travel etiquette things that
• 58:52
  people should be aware of when they're on a plane or maybe in
• 58:57
  an airport or something on those lines?
• 58:59
  Let's get some education out there.
• 59:01
  OK, I think First off, you learn etiquette probably over time or
• 59:09
  but some of it's just the basic human decency.
• 59:13
  You know, don't take off your shoes and stink up the plane.
• 59:18
  Don't eat sauerkraut on the plane.
• 59:21
  Don't do things that are going to gross other people out or are
• 59:25
  inconsiderate of the people around you.
• 59:28
  And now I want to talk about one specific thing that I've seen
• 59:32
  happen more and more recently, and it really irks me, which is
• 59:38
  here's how planes unload people by row.
• 59:43
  People in the front of a plane, usually if the X is on the front
• 59:46
  of the plane, get off first, right?
• 59:48
  And then it's row by row. And if somebody like said, go
• 59:52
  ahead, go get off in front of me, fine.
• 59:55
  However, if you think that you're going to just push your
• 59:59
  way to the front of the line or but that is tremendously rude
• 1:00:04
  and we can't be friends, well. Hard stance.
• 1:00:08
  There can't be friends. I agree.
• 1:00:10
  I think it's just a thing. I I don't see that very often.
• 1:00:13
  I think what I typically see more and I, and I will defend
• 1:00:16
  this practice is if you've got a tight connection, usually the
• 1:00:21
  airline is aware of that and they ask people to stay seated
• 1:00:24
  to say, hey, let the people with the tight connections deplane
• 1:00:27
  first so they can get out there. And I've been part of that group
• 1:00:29
  before. And I can tell you as someone
• 1:00:31
  who was on a tight connection, as in me literally running
• 1:00:35
  through the Atlanta airport to make my flight to Amsterdam, I
• 1:00:39
  greatly appreciate it. You know, being able to skip
• 1:00:41
  even the four or five rows that I had to get to the front
• 1:00:44
  because I was already kind of, you know, near the front anyway.
• 1:00:47
  The problem I have with it is all of a sudden everybody's got
• 1:00:50
  a tight connection. And so people who are obviously
• 1:00:55
  not, you know, underneath, under that sort of duress tend to take
• 1:00:58
  advantage of the situation. So have a heart, you know, think
• 1:01:02
  of it as if you were in that position.
• 1:01:04
  If you've got plenty of time, you know, let those people pass.
• 1:01:07
  If you're one of those people, make sure they understand like,
• 1:01:09
  hey, I've got to take connection.
• 1:01:10
  Do you mind if I, you know, get in front of you?
• 1:01:13
  You can do that all as you're taxing to the gate right?
• 1:01:16
  Doesn't have to be like right that second.
• 1:01:18
  Say hey, talk to the people around and say hey.
• 1:01:20
  Just FYI got a tight connection is OK.
• 1:01:22
  If I get in front of you, 99% of the time people are cool.
• 1:01:27
  Yeah. And so that should be a
• 1:01:28
  relatively straightforward thing I.
• 1:01:30
  Totally agree with you. I've been on both sides of it as
• 1:01:32
  well and I've stayed put in my seat.
• 1:01:34
  If I didn't have a tight connection, I've gotten up and
• 1:01:37
  taken advantage of it wherever you need to.
• 1:01:42
  Yeah, but I think it's the me first mentality that bothers me.
• 1:01:47
  And you see it on the roads a lot of times where it's like,
• 1:01:50
  are you got a queue of cars and someone's like, oh, well this
• 1:01:54
  lane is free. I'm going to go all the way up
• 1:01:57
  until they go down those two lanes.
• 1:02:01
  Me first. Or someone sees that you're
• 1:02:03
  backing out of your spot and they're just like, no, I'm
• 1:02:06
  going. Or you turn on your turn signal
• 1:02:09
  and the person speeds up so you can't switch lanes.
• 1:02:12
  Me first. I don't like that.
• 1:02:16
  Be considerate of your of your fellow humans, that's all.
• 1:02:20
  OK, I'm, I'm OK with that. That's, that's a stance I can
• 1:02:22
  get behind. Where do you feel about people
• 1:02:25
  standing up when the when they get to the gate, immediately get
• 1:02:31
  to the gate and people stand up automatically even there's
• 1:02:34
  really nowhere to go? That drives.
• 1:02:37
  People crazy for some reason I don't quite get it, but it seems
• 1:02:41
  to be a common thing that people complain about is why is
• 1:02:43
  everybody saying even if they're like row 30 all the way in the
• 1:02:45
  back, you know back of the bus people stand up immediately when
• 1:02:49
  they land I. Don't know everybody's reason
• 1:02:51
  for doing what they do. That doesn't seem to bother me.
• 1:02:54
  I had a flight yesterday from Orlando to Denver.
• 1:02:58
  Is 4 hours as in the middle seat?
• 1:03:01
  My legs were cramped up by the end.
• 1:03:05
  I couldn't wait to stand up, but I had a middle seat wasn't able
• 1:03:09
  to stand up until like I literally walked off.
• 1:03:12
  But yeah, that doesn't that one doesn't bother me too much.
• 1:03:16
  I don't see how that really infringes on other people.
• 1:03:20
  Unless your your goal is to get your bag and to move up two
• 1:03:23
  rows. Then I think it's me first
• 1:03:26
  mentality and I don't like that. Yeah, I think it's I, I get, you
• 1:03:31
  know, the older I get, it's like, I've been sitting for X
• 1:03:35
  number of hours. I need to, like, stand up and
• 1:03:36
  stretch my leg, especially when you're crammed into these tiny
• 1:03:38
  little airplane seats that nobody fits into.
• 1:03:41
  So I get it. I don't have a position on it,
• 1:03:43
  but I thought I'd throw it out there because I see it commonly
• 1:03:46
  on, you know, like the Delta subreddit, which I see from time
• 1:03:50
  to time is like, why are these people staying home?
• 1:03:51
  And like, cares, you know, they're not going anywhere
• 1:03:54
  faster typically than anyone else.
• 1:03:56
  Usually they're stuck behind everyone else.
• 1:03:58
  You have to see those videos. Sometimes people post and it's
• 1:04:00
  like someone takes off their shoe and puts it on the arm
• 1:04:04
  like. Gross.
• 1:04:06
  I haven't run into anybody that's that inconcerate yet, but
• 1:04:10
  that is nasty. Yeah, it's.
• 1:04:12
  Pretty gross I had. One issue where somebody behind
• 1:04:15
  me had their barefoot on my like armrest on the window.
• 1:04:20
  And so the person's gross big toe and it was not a, it was not
• 1:04:24
  a a nice big toe. It was a pretty gnarly looking
• 1:04:27
  one. And you know, I put my elbow
• 1:04:30
  there and then, you know, I'm end up moving and it kept
• 1:04:32
  showing up there. And so, you know, I just started
• 1:04:35
  like, you know, elbowing it and you know, stuff like that.
• 1:04:39
  And I eventually I eventually got the hip, but just gross.
• 1:04:42
  Keep your shoes on, people. You got your little space and
• 1:04:48
  just think about like the people around you is that.
• 1:04:54
  I think that is the two things that I've learned in my decades
• 1:05:00
  of travelling. 1 is be considerable of other people and
• 1:05:06
  then the other is like manage and maintain your temper because
• 1:05:11
  things happen during travel. You're sitting on the the runway
• 1:05:14
  for two hours and it's the plane track that's being filled with
• 1:05:20
  exhaust fumes and you're just like angry.
• 1:05:25
  I mean I would be. Pretty angry about that too.
• 1:05:27
  Like like let's come on, let's let's figure this out.
• 1:05:29
  But. Yes, it happens all the time
• 1:05:31
  though a slow burn. Is.
• 1:05:33
  Is preferable and you just have to somehow find a way to keep
• 1:05:43
  your cool and realized that this is going to happen sometimes.
• 1:05:49
  How about the times where you're like, you're sitting in the
• 1:05:51
  airport, they delay. This happened to you and I.
• 1:05:53
  We were both in the Atlanta airport.
• 1:05:55
  They delayed, delayed, delay. It's 11:45.
• 1:05:59
  They finally cancel. You're rebooked to the 6:00 AM
• 1:06:02
  flight and we can't pay for your hotel tonight because weather.
• 1:06:07
  And you know, it wasn't weather. It wasn't weather where you're
• 1:06:10
  going. It wasn't weather where you are.
• 1:06:13
  You could fly off the handle and be angry.
• 1:06:15
  It's really not going to get you anywhere.
• 1:06:19
  Yeah, these things are going to happen in your career of travel.
• 1:06:23
  Yeah, I think people who travel a lot probably understand it
• 1:06:26
  about the people who don't. It's just these are things that
• 1:06:29
  happen. You know, it's an odds game.
• 1:06:31
  You might go 100 trips that are totally fine and another person
• 1:06:35
  might go 100 trips and every single one was a disaster.
• 1:06:38
  So you just never know. I have the Flighty app on my
• 1:06:42
  phone, which is a great iOS app for anybody who is interested in
• 1:06:46
  like their air travel and kind of keep things track.
• 1:06:49
  And so I have all my flights in there that goes back back to
• 1:06:51
  2010 and all time. I have lost 125 hours from
• 1:06:57
  delays since this has been tracking 11 this year 2024, I
• 1:07:02
  lost 33 hours of time because of delays with flights.
• 1:07:06
  Now some of that was hurricane related where I was like gone
• 1:07:09
  for three, you know, essentially 3 days, which didn't really
• 1:07:11
  count on that part of it. But yeah, it, it's, it's going
• 1:07:15
  to happen and it's just, you know, Goose Frappa deal with it.
• 1:07:20
  Go into a moment of Zen or whatever it might be.
• 1:07:23
  You have to. You have to or it's going to
• 1:07:25
  ruin your life. So quick story, I was flying
• 1:07:28
  back from Orlando yesterday. We were both in Orlando for
• 1:07:31
  company conference and I, I boarded the flight and I'm good
• 1:07:35
  and I'm on a window seat on my flight from Atlanta to Asheville
• 1:07:40
  and plane is boarded. You know, everybody's on
• 1:07:44
  essentially at this point. And I get the, the flight
• 1:07:47
  attendant comes back and says, hey, you've been upgraded.
• 1:07:52
  Like, OK, I'm like, I'm already in the window seat.
• 1:07:54
  There's two people sitting next to me like the point is
• 1:07:57
  literally ready to go and they couldn't have figured that out
• 1:08:01
  like before. So shockingly I declined the
• 1:08:04
  upgrade because I was like, I'm not going to make these people
• 1:08:05
  stand up to move up like 5 rows into 2D or whatever it was in.
• 1:08:11
  So I was like just next time tell me sooner.
• 1:08:16
  Don't wait till like the boarding door is closed to.
• 1:08:20
  Somebody else and they took 10 minutes to move up there.
• 1:08:23
  No, the, the, the seat was empty, but I just, I felt bad
• 1:08:29
  because it was like these two people sitting next to me.
• 1:08:31
  I'd already gotten comfortable and got my stuff kind of set up
• 1:08:34
  and was like I. Don't want to if it was a.
• 1:08:38
  Longer flight, Absolutely, but for a 38 minutes or a 45 minute
• 1:08:41
  flight? You didn't do that.
• 1:08:43
  Yeah, I don't. Know oh I'm not.
• 1:08:44
  I'd be ashamed. Of the old, yeah, if it was, if
• 1:08:47
  it was a flight more than an hour, I would have done it.
• 1:08:49
  But at Atlanta, Nashville is, you know, 45 minutes, maybe 50
• 1:08:54
  if everything you know, goes wrong.
• 1:08:55
  But, and I was like, just. And at that point it was also
• 1:08:58
  like, I don't know, 9:00 at night.
• 1:09:00
  I just want to get home. Yeah.
• 1:09:03
  All right, let's wrap it. I'll be.
• 1:09:04
  Interested to see what YouTube shorts you make out of if
• 1:09:10
  anything from the leg node comes up.
• 1:09:13
  I don't know. I typically don't.
• 1:09:14
  I try to keep it on point. So I'll probably try to focus on
• 1:09:16
  that. But I know you'll be getting
• 1:09:17
  into the YouTube Shorts thing, so you might carve something out
• 1:09:19
  of this. Yeah, I.
• 1:09:21
  Love it. Some sort of public messaging
• 1:09:23
  and then that's when I really get to hate because people would
• 1:09:25
  be like, I'm going to stand up and get past you anytime, you
• 1:09:27
  know, screw you, Jim. I'd like sour drought.
• 1:09:32
  Right. That's the one that that
• 1:09:34
  definitely bugs me. And as much as I like
• 1:09:36
  McDonald's, I do not want to smell it on a plane as it goes
• 1:09:39
  past me because now I'm thinking about French fries.
• 1:09:41
  Well, especially if you're. Starving and you don't have
• 1:09:44
  anything? Yeah, yeah.
• 1:09:47
  All right, let's call it for this week.
• 1:09:51
  Visit our website, idacpodcast.com.
• 1:09:54
  It has all of our episodes. It has all of our discount
• 1:09:57
  codes, all that good stuff like subscribe, share with friends.
• 1:10:02
  You know, we're doing crazy amounts of downloads every month
• 1:10:05
  now. So it's pretty, pretty
• 1:10:06
  ridiculous, but definitely want to keep that up.
• 1:10:09
  And yeah, thanks to everyone who always reaches out and sends
• 1:10:12
  this message on length ends, people who see at conferences,
• 1:10:14
  etcetera. Also forward to meeting us
• 1:10:16
  folks. So we'll go ahead and leave it
• 1:10:18
  there for this week. Thanks everyone for watching and
• 1:10:22
  or listening and we'll talk with you all in the next one.
• 1:10:26
  You've been listening to Identity at the Center.
• 1:10:30
  We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and
• 1:10:34
  review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the
• 1:10:38
  website at identity@thecenter.com.
• 1:10:42
  See you next time on Identity at the Center.