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SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOTHER MISSING: WEEK 8 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: This as Rufer's Electricians HVAC workers under the microscope at tonight.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Why was Nancy Guthrie's backdoor propped open? This as a
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Pima County Sheriff's deputy arrested for kidnapp and the same
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: jurisdiction as Nancy Guthrie is kidnapped. The FBI tonight looking
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: for sat images. Satellite images, Yes, they've been used in
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  Speaker 1: the past. Will they emerge as key evidence? Also tonight
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  Speaker 1: a vehicle of interest. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grece. This
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  Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being
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  Speaker 1: with us. Why was the back door propped open?
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  Speaker 2: It confirms the initial reports that entry was initially gained
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  Speaker 2: through the rear of the residents.
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  Speaker 1: Yet we know missus Guthrie went out the front door
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  Speaker 1: because that was her blood straight out. Today, Matt Crime
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  Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter, we are learning that Rufer's electricians HVAC
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: workers are now under the microscope in the disappearance of
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  Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie. What's happening well, Nancy.
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  Speaker 3: One thing that has been learned is that there were
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: a number of individuals that had legitimate access to Nancy
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  Speaker 3: Guthrie's home. In particular, there was an electrician at least
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  Speaker 3: one maybe more, that was there to replace an electrical
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  Speaker 3: panel that was a big undertaking and required multiple days
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  Speaker 3: and work orders. That was leading up to the day
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  Speaker 3: she was kidnapped. We've got h fact workers that were
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  Speaker 3: also reportedly doing service maintenance work on her HVAC system
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  Speaker 3: in the home in the weeks leading up to her
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  Speaker 3: disappearance on February first. These are all legitimate people reportedly
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  Speaker 3: that were there and are now being tracked back by investigators.
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  Speaker 3: Each individual person this.
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  Speaker 1: For reference at twelve to you is put up Dave
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  Speaker 1: mac What do you mean they were all legitimate? Do
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  Speaker 1: you know who was on the team of roofers working
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  Speaker 1: on her house? Do you know they were all legitimate?
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  Speaker 1: Were they day laborers? They got picked up in the
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  Speaker 1: parking lot of the grocery store. You don't know that.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Why did you say that?
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  Speaker 3: I said legitimate because there were legitimate reasons for these
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  Speaker 3: people to be there. We don't know who they are,
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  Speaker 3: we don't have their names, and hey, a day laborer
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  Speaker 3: could have been picked up to do work that day.
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  Speaker 4: We don't know.
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  Speaker 3: We just know that there were legitimate works in place
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  Speaker 3: for the work being done, not the individuals.
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  Speaker 1: Dave mac Dave Mac an eighty four year old mother,
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  Speaker 1: grandmother is missing. Words matter, words matter, straight out to
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  Speaker 1: Brian Fitzgibbons, joining us Director Operations USPA Nationwide Security, I
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: can't say it enough. He leads a team of investigators
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  Speaker 1: around the world finding and extracting missing people, including extractions
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  Speaker 1: from Mexico former marine Irocky Warvet. Brian, I would expect
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  Speaker 1: this as SOOP. I would be surprised if they didn't start, well,
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  Speaker 1: not nanos, not nanos, But the FBI didn't start looking
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  Speaker 1: at the hvacs, the electricians, the roofers. Day one. We've
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  Speaker 1: heard about landscapers and pool guys, but now we're hearing
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: specifically about h VAC workers.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and that search has expanded to anybody doing
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  Speaker 2: work inside of Missus Guthrie's High and in the I
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: would say important to remember, and in the neighboring properties.
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  Speaker 2: These are going to be HVAC technicians, electricians, general contractors,
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  Speaker 2: any type of repair work being done. The FBI will
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  Speaker 2: be meticulously going through those work orders, the dates, the times,
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  Speaker 2: that those work orders were completed, and then most importantly,
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  Speaker 2: who was there on site and who has information about
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  Speaker 2: those people and getting an interview with them.
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  Speaker 1: Scott Iiker, founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey
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  Speaker 1: Team cast former FBI agent before that, former homicide nor
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  Speaker 1: from Virginia twenty twelve years now with precisions cellular analysis experts. Iiker.
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  Speaker 1: Don't you think the FBI zoomed in the moment they
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: got there and started looking at well, we know looking
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  Speaker 1: at pool guys and looking at LANSCA papors, but now
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  Speaker 1: HVAC workers. We also know they looked at electricians, but
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  Speaker 1: now we're learning more about roofers and h va workers.
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  Speaker 5: Why, Well, that's part of the process of when we
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: go out and there's a crime scene, we're going to
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  Speaker 5: do a neighborhood canvas. That's not just talking to the neighbors.
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  Speaker 5: That's also figuring out who was normally in that area
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  Speaker 5: and who was there doing work or who was just
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  Speaker 5: visiting family in the area. You don't just narrow it
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  Speaker 5: down to people that live there. It's everybody that could
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  Speaker 5: have been in that area at the time the crime
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  Speaker 5: occurred and prior to the time of occurring. So the
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  Speaker 5: workers there are definitely people that we and when I
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  Speaker 5: was in the FBI, we'd be tracking down and interviewing
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  Speaker 5: and validating their reasons to be there and where they
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  Speaker 5: were on the night of the crime.
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  Speaker 1: We're just learning tonight that it's not just electricians, not
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  Speaker 1: just the pool guy in the landscaper, but specifically rufers,
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  Speaker 1: HVAC workers under the microscope and Susannah Ryan joining US
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  Speaker 1: lab director forensic DNA analyst at Pure Gold Forensics. She
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  Speaker 1: is a consultant Ryan Forensics, twenty five years in the
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  Speaker 1: business of DNA and soroology. Susannah, thank you for being
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  Speaker 1: with us. Day one, you look at them, Day two,
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  Speaker 1: you get their DNA. It's not hard. I stood there
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  Speaker 1: warrant in hand and said, I'm getting your DNA now.
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  Speaker 1: I did not perform the test because that would make
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  Speaker 1: me a witness at child. But I stood there and
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  Speaker 1: watch it. Watched it on many occasions. I watched it
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  Speaker 1: get put in a paper bag, sealed, signature written on it,
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  Speaker 1: and taken to the crime lab. How do you do it?
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  Speaker 1: How do you get the HVAC workers DNA and the
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  Speaker 1: least intrusive manner possible?
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  Speaker 6: It's very simple. It's just what we call buckle slab,
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  Speaker 6: So it's just a swa from the inside of someone's mouth.
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  Speaker 6: We're collecting the cheek cells and so that's a great
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  Speaker 6: source of DNA. We don't have to take blood anymore.
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  Speaker 7: So it's very simple.
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  Speaker 6: Put that swab in, swirl it around, collect it, and
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  Speaker 6: like you said, then you have it. Whether you actually
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  Speaker 6: have to test it or not. That's going to come
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  Speaker 6: down the road when if you start having unknown profiles
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  Speaker 6: but absolutely collected. I can't tell you the number of
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  Speaker 6: cases that I have worked that it's turned out that,
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  Speaker 6: you know, not to disparage construction workers. I'm not saying,
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  Speaker 6: you know, these people are bad people in any way,
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  Speaker 6: but I have had a lot of cases where it's
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  Speaker 6: been a construction worker, someone that, as Dave Max said,
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  Speaker 6: had legitimate access to the house, but performed a terrible
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  Speaker 6: act on a person living there. And that does have
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  Speaker 6: me concerned that perhaps one of these people who had
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  Speaker 6: this access to the house then locked the door, put
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  Speaker 6: something in it so it didn't close completely because they
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  Speaker 6: were planning on coming back later that night to.
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  Speaker 7: Wants Suffy.
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  Speaker 1: So Roofer's electricians, h VAC workers get in line. You're
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  Speaker 1: getting a buckle swab. It's really not hard, just like
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  Speaker 1: Susanna Ryan's telling you. It's like a long Q tip
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  Speaker 1: and they just stick it in your mouth and swirl
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  Speaker 1: it around. They don't let you do it in a
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  Speaker 1: forensic buckle swab like you would take your own COVID
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  Speaker 1: test by sticking the Q tip up your nose. No,
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  Speaker 1: they do it to make sure it's an accurate test.
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  Speaker 1: Very easy. In the time we've talked about it, we
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  Speaker 1: could have done maybe three or four buckle swabs now. Next,
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  Speaker 1: a Pima County Sheriff's deputy arrested for kidnap of a
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  Speaker 1: female in this jurisdiction, Dave mac hit me Nancy.
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  Speaker 3: Twenty two year old Travis Reynold is a deputy or
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  Speaker 3: foreigner deputy with Pima County and he is accused of
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  Speaker 3: transporting suspect and during this transporting the suspect to jail,
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  Speaker 3: Travis Reynolds commented on her hotness, referring to her as
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  Speaker 3: a milf and suggesting.
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  Speaker 1: That he hold on, please stop. I've never heard it
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  Speaker 1: stated quite like that, Dave mac did you say the
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  Speaker 1: p Ma County sheriff deputy commented on her hotness. Her hotness,
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  Speaker 1: is that what you said?
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  Speaker 4: Yes?
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  Speaker 1: Okay, go ahead. He commented on her hotness. That's not
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  Speaker 1: a feeling, and he keep going and suggested either keep
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: going help No, I'm frank because of what it suggests Nancy.
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  Speaker 3: He suggests he could actually help her case if they
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  Speaker 3: just popped over to it.
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  Speaker 1: He's some bargain. Look at this. Please, okay, go ahead. Sorry.
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  Speaker 3: So once the woman is obviously very uncomfortable in this situation,
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  Speaker 3: but Reynolds doesn't let up. They go to the jail,
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  Speaker 3: and at the jail, this Pema County Sheriff's deputy the
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  Speaker 3: time sits in the vehicle with the suspect. He doesn't
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  Speaker 3: take her inside the jail. The deputy sits in his
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  Speaker 3: car in the parking lot with by the way surveillance
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  Speaker 3: cameras facing the car where they can see them sitting
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  Speaker 3: in the car. During this time period of two hours,
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  Speaker 3: the suspect watches other suspects being taken in for booking
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  Speaker 3: into the jail and suggests, hey, let's go in.
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  Speaker 4: It's time.
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  Speaker 3: She's begging. Let take me into jail. Reynolds doesn't. They
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  Speaker 3: stay in the vehicle for two hours During that time,
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  Speaker 3: Reynolds allegedly shows the victim suspect videos a male and
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  Speaker 3: female having sex. The suspect or victim rather believes.
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  Speaker 1: Dave it's called porn pornography, porn video. Let me guess.
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  Speaker 1: Is he the star of the porn just apparently?
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  Speaker 4: Yes?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, keep going. Can you wrap it up? Because
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: I don't see any connection?
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  Speaker 3: Go go, go, go well, he is charged with kidnapping
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  Speaker 3: the deputy, former deputy Travis Reynolds.
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  Speaker 1: Way can you leave out? He made her show, He
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  Speaker 1: made her show him her breasts before he would let
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  Speaker 1: her let her out of the car.
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  Speaker 4: That is exactly what happened, and I did leave it out.
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  Speaker 4: I apologize.
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  Speaker 3: So once she showed him her breast, the deputy then
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  Speaker 3: escorted the victim suspect into the jail, where she was booked.
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  Speaker 3: He was later arrested by Tucson police because he is
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  Speaker 3: a deputy with pan mc county and he is arrested
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  Speaker 3: and charged with kidnapping and is being held on two
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  Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars bond.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to throw this to Scott Iiker, I
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  Speaker 1: Ker I need to see Iker. Not seeing him there?
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  Speaker 8: He is.
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  Speaker 1: What's wrong with men? What is wrong with men?
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  Speaker 5: I can tell you that that's kind of sickening, and
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  Speaker 5: that's abuse of a power of a police officer. I mean,
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  Speaker 5: you've already got someone in a position where they can't
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  Speaker 5: fight back, and you are suggesting these type of events
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  Speaker 5: and stuff like that for some favor. It's sickening.
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  Speaker 1: In my opinion, I don't see a connection that the
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  Speaker 1: motors operand I'm medo of operation completely different than that
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  Speaker 1: of Nancy Guthrie. But we still have to look at it.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, if he'll try to force himself on one
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  Speaker 1: female in this jurisdiction, he may very well. He has
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  Speaker 1: not been charged, he's not been named a person of
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  Speaker 1: interest in the Nancy Guthrie case. My gut is he's
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  Speaker 1: not part of that. So please don't run up to
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  Speaker 1: his apartment with pitchforks and torches, Please don't. That's it.
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  Speaker 1: You still have to look at it, Iker, you can't
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  Speaker 1: ignore it.
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  Speaker 5: I agree that this doesn't look like it's having any
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  Speaker 5: connection to the Nancy Guthrie case. Just the fact that
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  Speaker 5: they use the term kidnapping. That's going to make the news,
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  Speaker 5: and it's in Pima County. But I don't see at
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  Speaker 5: this at this point in time, any connection to Missus
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  Speaker 5: Guthrie's case.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, what about it, Fitz, I agree that.
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  Speaker 2: You know, Hey, the unfortunate thing here is this is
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  Speaker 2: yet again another negative blow in the media to Pema
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  Speaker 2: County that's unrelated to the case, but also will tie
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  Speaker 2: up significant resources amongst their leadership. Right because at the
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  Speaker 2: end of the day, Pema County leadership is going to
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  Speaker 2: have to react to this. They're going to have to
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  Speaker 2: answer questions, They're going to be dealing with lawyers. This
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  Speaker 2: is yet again another distraction against their efforts for finding
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  Speaker 2: Missus Guthrie.
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  Speaker 1: Let me see, Fitz, you know what you just did.
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  Speaker 1: You just gave me a night terror. I'll be dreaming
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  Speaker 1: about this tonight because this fits right in with sod
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  Speaker 1: some of the dude did at defense. When we finally
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: do catch the purp and it will be a man,
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  Speaker 1: if not more than one man, they're going to say, hey,
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  Speaker 1: look this Pema County sheriff. He's a kidnapped right under
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  Speaker 1: your nose. Maybe he did it. That could get one
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  Speaker 1: gurror to veer off the path into the weeds. See
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  Speaker 1: what I'm saying. This is bad.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point. And you know, problems compound
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  Speaker 2: in moments like this where you know this piece of
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  Speaker 2: information armed a defense attorney armed with that can point
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: to their reaction to this case. You know what were
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: the communications? Was this individual ever in missus Guthrie's neighborhood
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  Speaker 2: for any reason? And that could just be a major
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: distraction at trial.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you Joe Scott Morgan for being with us tonight.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Forensics investigator and Professor Forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott,
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  Speaker 1: I want to talk about the evidence outside Nancy Guthries's
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  Speaker 1: front door. We've seen a lot. We've seen the matt,
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  Speaker 1: which I know you want to talk about. We've seen
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: the rocks, the debris, the foliage on top of the mat.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about some Ozark trail shoes.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Ozark trail shoes. Now, Joe Scott, we know that the
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: backpack was an Ozark Trail backpack from Walmart, but Ozark
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: trail shoes. I want you to look at the bottom
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: of the tread and compare it to blood found outside
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  Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's front door.
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 9: You take a look at this image, Nancy, and you
• 15:39
  Speaker 9: begin to think about, well, is there any kind of
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  Speaker 9: discernible tread pattern that is contained in there? Now, let
• 15:45
  Speaker 9: me preface this by saying that the image that you're
• 15:48
  Speaker 9: seeing with the blood droplets, that's not coming from the police,
• 15:53
  Speaker 9: that's coming from somebody in the press. Okay, So the
• 15:56
  Speaker 9: quality of that image will be enhanced relative to the
• 16:02
  Speaker 9: pictures that they took as crime scene investigators. So you'll
• 16:06
  Speaker 9: be able to see more fine detail in that. Now,
• 16:08
  Speaker 9: why is this important? It's important when you begin to
• 16:11
  Speaker 9: think about that Ozark trail tread there, and our tread
• 16:15
  Speaker 9: on our shoes is very distinctive to us in the
• 16:18
  Speaker 9: way that we walk. So what they're looking for, first off,
• 16:21
  Speaker 9: is a general categorization of these treads. Is it something
• 16:26
  Speaker 9: that could potentially be looking at the image of the blood?
• 16:29
  Speaker 9: Is there an image that is consistent with the tread
• 16:32
  Speaker 9: pattern on the Ozark tread on the Ozark shoes. Now,
• 16:36
  Speaker 9: if that is in fact the case, if they are
• 16:39
  Speaker 9: able to get their hands on shoes like shoes, for instance,
• 16:43
  Speaker 9: they would do a comparison at that moment in time,
• 16:46
  Speaker 9: particularly if they find them with a suspect nancy. And
• 16:49
  Speaker 9: what's going to make those particularly identifiable is the wear pattern.
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  Speaker 9: How do we wear our shoes? Do we pronate supinate
• 16:55
  Speaker 9: or we heal strikers or we tow strikers. You begin
• 16:58
  Speaker 9: to think about that come through in that image.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk to you about the Ozark
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  Speaker 1: Trail shoes. And we had been looking at various shoes
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: to determine their shoe patterns on the bottom of their treadmarks.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: This is from a photo I found on X from
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: a guy who talks shit on X. His words, not mine.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Now we're seeing the bottom of the pattern. I want
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: you to look at the Ozark Trail shoe itself. Here
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: is a side shot of the Ozark Trail men's low
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: hiker boots. Now, let's compare that to the video of
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: the porch guy. Let's look at his shoes, Joe Scott.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: They actually look more like the Ozark Trail shoe than
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: they do, for instance, a regular pair of Nikes or
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: tennis shoes with stripes down the side or a logo.
• 17:51
  Speaker 9: Yeah, and there's very distinctive pattern here, Nancy that let
• 17:55
  Speaker 9: me let me just you know, kind of frame this
• 17:57
  Speaker 9: up for you with FBI, with their digital folks that
• 18:03
  Speaker 9: are taking a look at these images. If they trim
• 18:05
  Speaker 9: this out, and the folk that they focus in on
• 18:08
  Speaker 9: these particular shoes, they'll be able to super enhance these
• 18:13
  Speaker 9: This video is so good compared to a lot of
• 18:16
  Speaker 9: the stuff I've seen over the years, relative to specific
• 18:20
  Speaker 9: types of shoes. They can enhance this image to the
• 18:23
  Speaker 9: point where I think that they could probably come up
• 18:25
  Speaker 9: with branding, you know, and what you're looking for specific identifiers.
• 18:29
  Speaker 9: If you take a look at the tip of that shoe,
• 18:31
  Speaker 9: you've got the rubber sole that actually rises up to
• 18:34
  Speaker 9: meet the toes, All right, look at that, and then
• 18:37
  Speaker 9: you look at that kind of striped area that's kind
• 18:40
  Speaker 9: of highlighted if you can really see it on the
• 18:43
  Speaker 9: heel of this shoe, Well, that's unique to that shoe.
• 18:47
  Speaker 9: And Nancy and forensic science, that comes down to something.
• 18:49
  Speaker 9: There's a principle that we have that's referred to as individualization.
• 18:54
  Speaker 9: That means that we're tying specific brands items back to
• 18:59
  Speaker 9: a particular person. And so all of those when you
• 19:02
  Speaker 9: take that total aggregate there and you kind of shake
• 19:06
  Speaker 9: it down, you're looking for something that is going to
• 19:09
  Speaker 9: be unique to that individual. Where could he have purchased
• 19:12
  Speaker 9: these shoes? Do they show any kind of wear on
• 19:15
  Speaker 9: them on the sides at all. And again through the enhancement,
• 19:19
  Speaker 9: perhaps the digital enhancement that the FBI is going to
• 19:22
  Speaker 9: render up, that's going to be a very specific identifier
• 19:25
  Speaker 9: for these. And again going back to branding, we talked
• 19:27
  Speaker 9: about the book bag, We've talked about the shoes. Oh yeah,
• 19:30
  Speaker 9: by the way, what about the holster as well? Remember
• 19:34
  Speaker 9: there was talk that that was potentially purchased through Walmart,
• 19:38
  Speaker 9: either online or maybe at a store itself. So you've
• 19:41
  Speaker 9: got three things here that we're looking at.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: I want to talk to you also, Joscott Morgan, about
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: speculation that blood was found inside inside Nancy Guthries a
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: front door. If there was a rug there, you know,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: like an entrance hall, an entrance area rug that's very
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: very common that may have those blood spots may have
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: escaped detection because it blends in with a rug. How
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: do you go about getting blood spotterer if there is
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: any from off the rug.
• 20:23
  Speaker 9: Well, you're not going to get it off. That's an
• 20:25
  Speaker 9: excellent question. You're not going to get it off. You
• 20:27
  Speaker 9: don't want to remove it, But what you want to
• 20:29
  Speaker 9: do is test it. Okay, So what they're going to
• 20:32
  Speaker 9: do first and This is kind of fascinating. People might
• 20:34
  Speaker 9: be interested in this. If they take that rug, they're
• 20:37
  Speaker 9: going to subject it to alternative light sources back at
• 20:41
  Speaker 9: the State Crime Lab or with the FBI, And what
• 20:44
  Speaker 9: that means is they're going to utilize things like infrared
• 20:47
  Speaker 9: photography and they're going to see if they can't enhance
• 20:50
  Speaker 9: any kind of stains that might be on that rug. Now,
• 20:53
  Speaker 9: can we definitively say that that stain came about as
• 20:56
  Speaker 9: a result of this event with her, No, we can't
• 21:00
  Speaker 9: necessarily say that. However, the presence of some kind of
• 21:03
  Speaker 9: biological sample there is significant.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: So what you wanted to mind for Joe Scott, Joe
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Scott plays come out of your ivory tower for just
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: one moment. There's blood on a front porch. If there's
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: blood just on the inside of the door, what do
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: you think she cut her legs shaving right there? Of
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: course it's connected.
• 21:23
  Speaker 9: Well, it could very well be. And it could be
• 21:25
  Speaker 9: that she had a spontaneous bloody nose as well, And
• 21:28
  Speaker 9: I think that people would.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Argue that put him up. So you're telling me, with
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: blood on the front porch the night she's kidnapped, you're
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: actually trying to suggest that one day she's walking by
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: her front door and she suddenly has a spontaneous nosebleed. No,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: it would be connected. You know, just pretend with me,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: go out on a limb. It's connected. It was from
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: the same night. Blood on the outside of the door,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: blood on the inside of the door. I'm talking to
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: you about getting blood, DNA spatter aspirated. I don't know
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: off the interior rug, if there is one at the
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: front door, and if it was overlooked by Nanos's people
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: when they first went in. Think, think, think, ye, it'd
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: still be there on the rug, Joe Scott, That's what
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: I'm saying.
• 22:21
  Speaker 9: Well, hopefully they did collect it at that moment, Tom
• 22:24
  Speaker 9: and preserve it. Uh, if for no other reason to
• 22:27
  Speaker 9: get it.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Doesn't that go without saying. I mean, it's way out
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: of my promise to correct a professor of forensics. But
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: of course I hope they got the blood. I'm sorry
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: all my tin steps ahead of you right now. Of
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: course I hope they got the blood.
• 22:40
  Speaker 9: I tell you this. I hope that they got the
• 22:42
  Speaker 9: rug that was going into the house. They didn't know,
• 22:45
  Speaker 9: did they they left it out there?
• 22:47
  Speaker 10: No?
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: They didn't.
• 22:49
  Speaker 9: Oh really, I saw it in the image. I saw
• 22:52
  Speaker 9: it in the image there, Nancy. Now maybe they came
• 22:54
  Speaker 9: back later and collected it, but they didn't collect it
• 22:57
  Speaker 9: in the moment. And let me tell you one other thing.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: If you why they didn't, it's probably still sitting there,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott, that's why. That's why I want it explored.
• 23:06
  Speaker 9: Well, yeah, I wanted to explore too. And you know,
• 23:09
  Speaker 9: I'm more than happy to go teach classes for these
• 23:12
  Speaker 9: people because obviously they skipped over the day where we
• 23:15
  Speaker 9: talk about securing and collecting evidence because they didn't in
• 23:18
  Speaker 9: that first pass that they did. Now, I don't know
• 23:20
  Speaker 9: who showed up that thirty six hours later. I hope
• 23:23
  Speaker 9: they had the good sense to collect it. I hope
• 23:25
  Speaker 9: they had the good sense to collect everything inside of
• 23:28
  Speaker 9: that door, Nancy, and anything else that's on that surface
• 23:31
  Speaker 9: in that house. Because let me tell you something, the
• 23:33
  Speaker 9: clock is ticking. It has been ticking now for many,
• 23:36
  Speaker 9: many weeks, and they missed something initially here. That is,
• 23:41
  Speaker 9: this guy is stomping all over that rug putting back up.
• 23:44
  Speaker 9: Show the video of him walking up, he's walking up
• 23:47
  Speaker 9: to that he's putting his feet down there in the
• 23:51
  Speaker 9: nest camera video that we're looking at Nancy. You know,
• 23:54
  Speaker 9: that's a pretty significant piece of evidence because not only
• 23:58
  Speaker 9: do we have blood depth position on the surrounding area
• 24:02
  Speaker 9: and you can't see it on that rug gee, I
• 24:04
  Speaker 9: wonder why, because it's black. You would have to have
• 24:07
  Speaker 9: some kind of contrast medium to be able to show
• 24:10
  Speaker 9: it up right there. And then I guarantee you dollars
• 24:13
  Speaker 9: to donuts there's blood deposition on that doormat right there.
• 24:17
  Speaker 9: And God only knows what's inside of the house, like
• 24:19
  Speaker 9: you said, in the receiving area, if there is a
• 24:21
  Speaker 9: carpeted space in there, if there's a welcome matt you
• 24:24
  Speaker 9: know where you wipe your feet and all that sort
• 24:26
  Speaker 9: of thing, or even a runner you know you think
• 24:29
  Speaker 9: about that, Well, you can have blood deposition there as well.
• 24:33
  Speaker 9: So it draws into question for me from a forensic standpoint,
• 24:38
  Speaker 9: is there going to be value here? Because once you
• 24:41
  Speaker 9: do not secure the scene, then all bets are off.
• 24:44
  Speaker 9: You're going to have the lawyers that are going to
• 24:45
  Speaker 9: come in and say, well, anybody could have come up
• 24:47
  Speaker 9: to that location after this and could have planned anything,
• 24:51
  Speaker 9: or it could have been destroyed, or it could have
• 24:53
  Speaker 9: been altered. This is a train wreck. Nancy, pure and simple,
• 24:59
  Speaker 9: Pure and simple. When you look at this.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: You were seeing video earlier from our friends of Fox News.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: And I want to point out the reason Joe Scott,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: Morgan and I are angry and upset tonight is because
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: we see errors, We see mishandling of the crime scene.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: We see possibilities that may very well still exist that
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: could give us clues, not just clues, evidence as to
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: who took Nancy Guthrie. And we're going to go down
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: swinging fighting. When we hit bottom, we'll still be swinging up.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: That is why Joe Scott and I and everybody on
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: this panel tonight, it's still fighting, still angry, still searching,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: still looking for answers. Another idea, Joe Scott Morgan the
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: back door. Oh hey, I want you to hear what
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Savannah said about the blood. Listen, Joe Scott, she can't wonder.
• 25:58
  Speaker 10: If she was tremendous pain. Her back was very bad,
• 26:03
  Speaker 10: so there was no wander off and the doors were
• 26:06
  Speaker 10: popped opin. Yeah, and there was blood on the front
• 26:09
  Speaker 10: doors and the ring camera had been bunked off.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: So Joe Scott, we hear her saying there was blood
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: on the doorstep that's what they saw that morning. That
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: does not preclude blood on the rug in the entrance hall,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: or blood in the entrance hall, which they would definitely
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: have stepped on the purp and Missus Guthrie would have
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: stepped on the blood on the inside, and maybe Annie,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: maybe the husband, maybe the police had they not seen it,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: but it could still actually be there. That was from
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: today YouTube, by the way, Okay, Joe Scott jump in.
• 26:48
  Speaker 9: Yeah, there's any number of places you think about. Let's
• 26:51
  Speaker 9: just say we're talking about a carpet. Okay, it's interwoven,
• 26:56
  Speaker 9: so you can actually have blood deposition that actually gets
• 27:00
  Speaker 9: into the weave of the carpet. And again, even with
• 27:04
  Speaker 9: any kind of trace evidence, this is very delicate stuff.
• 27:06
  Speaker 9: You have to be very very careful about it where
• 27:08
  Speaker 9: you're trying to pull things out or try to enhance
• 27:12
  Speaker 9: them so that you can examine. Because there's two types
• 27:14
  Speaker 9: of examination that we're thinking about here. First off, if
• 27:17
  Speaker 9: there is in fact biological data contained within the rug,
• 27:21
  Speaker 9: you have to be able to assess that. And then
• 27:24
  Speaker 9: if there is blood deposition, which means that there is
• 27:27
  Speaker 9: a specific pattern, that has to be a set. So
• 27:31
  Speaker 9: we're talking about photography and we're talking about biological assessment
• 27:35
  Speaker 9: in the lab.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Nancy from our friends at Fox News. Two other quick
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: items Jo Scott Morgan. One, we know the door was
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: propped open in the back. What evidence can we get
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: from that door knob? How is it propped open? Was
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: it propped up one with a rock? Can I get
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: DNA off that? Was it propped up one with a chair?
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Did they move it with their hands? Did they all
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: wear gloves? What can I get from that?
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: Oh?
• 27:58
  Speaker 9: My god? You know, I think about the surface of
• 28:00
  Speaker 9: what you know. When Savannah says it was propped open,
• 28:03
  Speaker 9: all right, that doesn't just mean that it's open. That
• 28:06
  Speaker 9: means that some item That generally implies that some item
• 28:10
  Speaker 9: was used to facilitate that, right, So I am thinking
• 28:13
  Speaker 9: about things like trace evidence relative to fingerprints. I'm thinking
• 28:17
  Speaker 9: about any kind of deposition relative to potential DNA. If
• 28:22
  Speaker 9: it is a rock, if it's an iron bar, if
• 28:24
  Speaker 9: it's a piece of wood, I don't know. And also
• 28:29
  Speaker 9: you think about, in addition to that, any kind of
• 28:32
  Speaker 9: trace evidence that might be on the doorknob or on
• 28:35
  Speaker 9: the actual door jam where you're actually opening the door,
• 28:38
  Speaker 9: where you're putting your hands on there to try to
• 28:40
  Speaker 9: get it open and propped. I wonder if we can
• 28:44
  Speaker 9: put into this world, into this environment, the idea that
• 28:48
  Speaker 9: it could have been pride. All right now they're saying
• 28:51
  Speaker 9: no signs of force entry. That's something that I'm going
• 28:54
  Speaker 9: to be very curious about. Was lock jimmied in any way?
• 28:56
  Speaker 9: We had talked about lock picking some time ago. Did
• 28:59
  Speaker 9: somebody get access to that lock or is it commonly unlocked?
• 29:04
  Speaker 9: That's a big question too, because some people will seppear
• 29:06
  Speaker 9: in their homes. Maybe she left it unlocked.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: That's from Fox Flight Team. That's a really good point,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott, because we heard that Missus Guthrie sometimes left
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: her back door unlocked. So there's so many directions to go. Okay,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: what were you to say?
• 29:24
  Speaker 9: No, I was just saying that I think that the
• 29:26
  Speaker 9: idea here is was there were there Are there any
• 29:29
  Speaker 9: tool marks on that door whatsoever? Or there any tool
• 29:32
  Speaker 9: marks on the key access area that that point where
• 29:35
  Speaker 9: you make contact with the with the key going into
• 29:39
  Speaker 9: the lock. Did anybody pry anything? Was anything pressure? Did
• 29:42
  Speaker 9: somebody put his shoulder into it? Does it open ind
• 29:45
  Speaker 9: does it open out? Is it something you have to pull?
• 29:47
  Speaker 9: So all of those dynamics come into play, and when
• 29:50
  Speaker 9: you're at a crime scene, Nancy, this is how your
• 29:53
  Speaker 9: brain has to work as an investigator. You want to
• 29:55
  Speaker 9: consider all possibilities.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Another issue, and this goes to Iker. We saw in
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: the Chile Writtenhouse case that sat images satellite images were used,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: actually they were infrared images. Explain how that helped crack
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: the case and bring out the truth in the Written
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: House incident.
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: The problem is you cannot predict when the satellites are
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: going to come over and use and find the video
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: or imagery at the time of the crime is very
• 30:34
  Speaker 5: very unusual, so actual imagery is not very helpful. Ninety
• 30:40
  Speaker 5: nine percent of the time. The one percent of the
• 30:42
  Speaker 5: time that there is some sort of satellite or aerial
• 30:47
  Speaker 5: drone or plane doing mapping, that's a possibility that it
• 30:52
  Speaker 5: randomly came over a crime scene at a specific time.
• 30:56
  Speaker 5: But there's so many different things that could cause you
• 30:59
  Speaker 5: not to get the image, like clouds or a storm
• 31:02
  Speaker 5: or something like that. You can't the satellites can't see
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: the ground at those specific times.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Let me see, Iker, Iker, you know what I don't like.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: I don't like anybody telling me why something's impossible. I
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: like somebody telling me possibilities. Yes, I know about clouds.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: I'm just a trial lawyer, but I know clouds will
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: obstruct an airplane's vision of the earth below. I understand
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: that concept. So tell me how it could work. Man,
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: I'm looking for answers here. I'm upset that we're at
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: day fifty nine and seemingly not any closer to finding
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie. So I'm looking for answers. I don't need
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: to hear why it might not work. Throw me a bone, icher,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: how could it work?
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: I totally agree with you. We're all frustrated at this situation.
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: And I was explaining that you know, the FBI and
• 32:01
  Speaker 5: we always want to look at all the possibilities. Well,
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: also have to take into the fact that when we
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: go for this type of evidence, we have to be
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: lucky if things actually happen the way we want.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Example, Well, then how would I find it? Tell me
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: how I can get lucky? Okay, how can I find
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: infrared aerial surveillance? How do I find it? What do
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: I do if it's there? Yes, I know it may
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: not be there. Yes I know it may be cloudy.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: I get it, But how do I find it? Show
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: me a path to a maybe a definite Maybe this.
• 32:38
  Speaker 5: Is exactly like the video from the front porch. Remember
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: that Pima County sheriff said, there's nothing there. You've got
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: to follow those those crumb breadcrumbs and keep pushing to
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: try to find it. So we got the video, so
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: let's go see what aerial satellites or aerial drones or
• 33:00
  Speaker 5: other stuff that were in the area at the time
• 33:02
  Speaker 5: that the crime occurred. So maybe we will get something there.
• 33:06
  Speaker 5: You don't leave it to chance. You've got to fight
• 33:08
  Speaker 5: for it and continue pushing to get to the end
• 33:12
  Speaker 5: of and get that evidence.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, be honest with me. Wo the Feds consider this,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Would they have already thought of this?
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: Yes, they would have. I've done it in my cases.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, back to you, Dave Matt. I want to hear
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: about a vehicle of interest. I'm understanding that it would
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: be a gray suv or a gray pickup a silver
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: or gray suv and or a silver or gray pickup truck.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: Is this truth and the reason I'm asking I'm going
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: somewhere with this. I'm going to a secondary crime scene.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: That's where I'm going. So tell me what you know
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: about potential vehicle of interest.
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: Since the beginning of this investigation, they've been the investigators
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: have been trying to identify vehicles of interest and they've
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: narrowed it down to two specifically, one a white van,
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: the other a gray or silver suv or pickout truck
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: as you mentioned. So we're looking at two basic types
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: of vehicles that are believed to have been possibly in
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: the neighborhoods that are unaccounted for, meaning they don't belong
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: to anyone that lives there or a resident that had
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: a friend in the neighborhood.
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: So we're talking about two vehicles that.
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: Were in the neighborhood that have been drawn down to
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: by investigators as interest.
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: Now FBI and p MC County Sheriff's deputies they.
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: Searched and towed a gray or silver Range Rover, if
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: you remember that from the Culver's restaurant, about two miles
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: away from the parking lot, two miles away from Nancy
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: Guthrie's home. We saw that that happened thirteen days into
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: the investigation. We've also seen early on investigators were at
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: a Circle K gas station on Oracle Road in Tucson. Again,
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: this is about a mile and a half two miles
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: from Nancy Guthries's home where they were investigating a vehicle
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: of interest trying to get video a surveillance video from
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: the circle K. These are two ongoing issues and they've
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: narrowed it down to the white van or the gray
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: silver suv or truck.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: They seemed to be off the white van and now
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: onto the gray or silver truck or suv, and I
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: guarantee iker they're getting something and it fits in with
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: the vehicle that was towed and other vehicles of interests
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: they've been looking at SUV's trucks, gray or silver. Question
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: to you, I remember when we were investigating the top
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: Mom case, Kane Casey Anthony. It's actually the Kalie Anthony case.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: She was the two year old murder victim. And I
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: think it was either Target or Walmart could enhance the
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: video of top Mom writing a fake check, fraudulently writing
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: a check on a friend's checking account so well I
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: could practically see her cleavage, which I did not need
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: to see. Why can't the FBI or can they enhance
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: that video that we keep showing in the hopes that
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: someone will recognize a vehicle? Can they are they is
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: that what's happening right now.
• 36:41
  Speaker 5: It all depends on the quality of the video initially
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: so and can they slow it down? It depends on
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: the amount of frames per second that that recording and
• 36:54
  Speaker 5: it initially has. When you can slow it down, if
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: there's more frames per second, you get more detail. If
• 37:00
  Speaker 5: you get have less frames per second, it's very grainy,
• 37:04
  Speaker 5: and that's where you run into some problems. But you
• 37:07
  Speaker 5: know they're working on it there hopefully get a maybe
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: a download from the company itself and not from the
• 37:15
  Speaker 5: neighborhood neighbor who provided that video.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: Susanna Ryan joining us LAB director forensic DNA analyst at
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Pure Gold Forensics. Susannah I mentioned the reason I'm curious,
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: the reason I want to find that vehicle is because
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: it represents a secondary crime scene. Explain the significance of
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: finding that secondary crime scene.
• 37:43
  Speaker 6: Well, if we're able to locate that vehicle, and we
• 37:46
  Speaker 6: know that Nancy was bleeding, so it's likely we'll be
• 37:49
  Speaker 6: able to find her blood. But what else is going
• 37:51
  Speaker 6: to be in that vehicle is the suspects DNA. You know,
• 37:55
  Speaker 6: even if they stole this vehicle, for example, it takes
• 37:58
  Speaker 6: a very short amount of time for some want to
• 38:00
  Speaker 6: leave their DNA behind in a vehicle, even if they're
• 38:04
  Speaker 6: trying to avoid that, you know, I mean I always
• 38:06
  Speaker 6: think of people shedding DNA like you know, like pig
• 38:10
  Speaker 6: Pen and Charlie Brown, Like you're constantly leaving DNA behind.
• 38:13
  Speaker 6: Every time you speak, You're leaving DNA behind. So anything
• 38:17
  Speaker 6: on that vehicle could have perpetrator's DNA, steering wheel, gearshift,
• 38:24
  Speaker 6: you know, any controls or knobs, the door going in
• 38:27
  Speaker 6: and out of the vehicle, So it would be highly propriate,
• 38:31
  Speaker 6: you know, very useful to find that vehicle. I think
• 38:33
  Speaker 6: it's great that now we have something to look for.
• 38:37
  Speaker 6: That was exactly what I was going to say today,
• 38:39
  Speaker 6: like what is the vehicle? Do we have anything? I
• 38:41
  Speaker 6: think it should be released because people want to help.
• 38:44
  Speaker 6: If people start seeing, oh there's a car that hasn't
• 38:48
  Speaker 6: moved for days in this parking lot, then they can
• 38:52
  Speaker 6: leave a tip and maybe that's that's the key to
• 38:55
  Speaker 6: solving this case.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, the FBI trying to reverse
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: engineer what could be two legitimate ransom notes. This amid
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: reports that missus S. Guthrie's home was found immaculate when
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: her daughter, Annie came rushing in. What if anything does
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: that mean to CSI crime scene investigators? Trust me, it
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: means a lot. And tonight did a dog named Jolene
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Foyle the kidnappers original plan. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: This is crime Stories. I want to thank you for
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: being with us.
• 40:00
  Speaker 11: Dogs are usually sound slavers, full confession. When the dog
• 40:06
  Speaker 11: woke me up to say I've got to go outside,
• 40:08
  Speaker 11: I was grudgingly accommodating and took the dog out to
• 40:14
  Speaker 11: our little courtyard in the back of our house.
• 40:18
  Speaker 7: And it was unusual and it seldom happens.
• 40:23
  Speaker 10: I mean from the very early moments, you know, Annie
• 40:26
  Speaker 10: and Tommy were saying, this isn't this isn't that case
• 40:30
  Speaker 10: that you are used to where someone wanders off. She
• 40:33
  Speaker 10: can't wander off, my mom. She was in tremendous pain.
• 40:39
  Speaker 10: Her back was very bad. You know, she was trying to.
• 40:44
  Speaker 10: On a good day she could walk down to the
• 40:46
  Speaker 10: mailbox and get the mail, but most days not. So
• 40:50
  Speaker 10: there was no wander off, and the doors were popped open. Yeah,
• 40:55
  Speaker 10: and there was blood on the front doors.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: That is from our friends today on YouTube and joining
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: us now special guest jeff le me, Nancy Guthrie's neighbor
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: who pastor often when they will both be out walking
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: in the neighborhood. Jeff let me, thank you for joining
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: us again. Tonight we are learning the back door was
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: propped open. Recent reports the home was quote immaculate. In
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: other words, Nancy Guthrie kept a perfect home. But yet
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: we see Jeff le me, and I'm sure you've seen it.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Let's show it again. The porch guy on the front porch.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: He is approaching Nancy Guthrie's front door, looking around. He's like, whoopsie,
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: there's a door, cam let me attack it. He's trying
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: to dislodge it right there. Ultimately we know Savannah tells
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: us it was dislodged there. He's like, hmm, can't get
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: it off. I'll put foliage over it. That will work,
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: which makes me question his intelligence. But that said, he's
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: managed to elude authorities now for sixty days. Clearly the
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: original plan was to take missus Guthrie out the back door.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: It was all propped open. Jeff, let me, what is
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: the name of your dog?
• 42:25
  Speaker 7: Jolene? Named after the song.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: By Dolly Parton. Of course, so jeff let me tell
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: me again what happened that night, how unusual it was,
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: and did you have any idea that about four doors
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: down your dog was very likely foiling a kidnappers plan
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: to take Nancy Guthrie out the back door.
• 42:52
  Speaker 11: Our dogs are sound sleeper, so this was really unusual
• 42:56
  Speaker 11: for the dogs to wake us up at that hour.
• 43:02
  Speaker 11: Were horrified as a community, speaking to neighbors, speaking to
• 43:06
  Speaker 11: people we know here, people just cannot imagine what she
• 43:11
  Speaker 11: went through that evening and how shocking this is and how.
• 43:17
  Speaker 7: Terrible this is.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: That night your dog out of the blues only happened
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: one other time to your recollection, and that would have
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: been on January the eleventh.
• 43:29
  Speaker 11: Absolutely, that was another night that we were questioned, and
• 43:33
  Speaker 11: when we went through the camera data with the investigators,
• 43:39
  Speaker 11: that's when we discovered it was the other night that
• 43:42
  Speaker 11: where this happened. And as I've noted, it hasn't happened since,
• 43:46
  Speaker 11: so perhaps the animals, the dogs were aware of some activity.
• 43:52
  Speaker 11: As I noted, one of the evenings our cameras went
• 43:55
  Speaker 11: offline that night. We had discussions with the investigators whether
• 44:00
  Speaker 11: or not that was a coincidence, whether it was spotty
• 44:04
  Speaker 11: service that we have with sell and what have you here?
• 44:08
  Speaker 11: Or it has some meaning and I hope that all
• 44:11
  Speaker 11: these issues, the dogs and cameras can add some value
• 44:14
  Speaker 11: to what happened.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: Mister le me. Has it occurred to you that your dog,
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: a dog barking, foiled the kidnappers plan? We know that
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: they had the back door propped wide open. We think
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: maybe according to one source, by Missus Guthrie's own flower pots,
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: that was the plan. If that door was meant just
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: to go in and get Missus Guthrie and go out
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: in the front, they wouldn't have propped it open behind them.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: That was the plan. But your dog barking, I believe,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: may have foiled their plan and they had to go
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: out the front. So do you know that you've actually
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: been attacked furiously online after you visited with us before,
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: people wondering, wow, how did he happen to bring up
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: that his dogs went crazy on jan eleven and the
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: early morning hours of FAB one. You didn't know. You
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: didn't know until the fans asked you to look at
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: your video, isn't that right?
• 45:25
  Speaker 7: That's correct? I mean we didn't.
• 45:26
  Speaker 11: We dismissed this as maybe this you know, so the
• 45:31
  Speaker 11: inconvenient of a dog waking you up in the early
• 45:34
  Speaker 11: hour morning morning hour, minister, of the evening, and just
• 45:39
  Speaker 11: being going back to that, and we didn't have that
• 45:43
  Speaker 11: correlation until later on when we were in discussions. You know, people,
• 45:50
  Speaker 11: you know, the reality is that your people can be critical,
• 45:54
  Speaker 11: but the community overall is trying to be supportive of
• 45:59
  Speaker 11: the investigation, supportive and compassionate about the family that suffered,
• 46:05
  Speaker 11: has suffered incredibly and we have to put that aside
• 46:09
  Speaker 11: and this move forward and try to be as helpful
• 46:11
  Speaker 11: as we can.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: Mister Lama, again, about what time was it that Jolaine
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: insisted on going outside?
• 46:19
  Speaker 11: So if this is an approximate time, I think it
• 46:21
  Speaker 11: was at one am. Was the time that the dogs
• 46:27
  Speaker 11: woke us up and took us you know, you know,
• 46:30
  Speaker 11: encouraged me to take her outside, and she noticed activity
• 46:36
  Speaker 11: and was staring towards the direction of the home and processing.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: Now of course missus Guthrie's home.
• 46:45
  Speaker 11: Yeah, and at that hour I noticed this in the video,
• 46:49
  Speaker 11: My task was to take Jolene outside, have her do
• 46:53
  Speaker 11: her business, so to speak, and then take her back
• 46:55
  Speaker 11: in at ist notice that, but that was you know,
• 47:01
  Speaker 11: as we discussed earlier, perhaps this could help with timeframe
• 47:05
  Speaker 11: or awareness of maybe some where some activity was taking place.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: Let's see the timeline quickly, control room. If I could
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: look at that. One forty seven am, the door cam
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: disconnects and your dog, Joline and Joline's companion wake you
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: up and take you out around one forty What did
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: she do to wake you up? And you said, encourage
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: you to take her out? My dog barks his head off.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: What did she do?
• 47:34
  Speaker 11: Julie is a very affectionate dog. She started to look
• 47:36
  Speaker 11: my face, which is her signal to wake up and
• 47:40
  Speaker 11: I need you, I need your help. And so she
• 47:44
  Speaker 11: was licking my face and greeting me, and that is
• 47:47
  Speaker 11: a signal to say I need to go outside.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: So you take her ound around one forty am. And
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: let me be clear, you did not realize. The only
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: other time to your recollection she has insisted, did you
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: take around I'm referring to Joline was on jan eleven.
• 48:03
  Speaker 11: January eleven, Yes, and we haven't had My wife and
• 48:09
  Speaker 11: I were discussing this. We haven't had that happen since
• 48:12
  Speaker 11: and this was very I mean, they're not puppies, you know,
• 48:15
  Speaker 11: this was not typical behavior at all.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: So question to you What is your neighborhood been like
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: since Miss Gutherie went missing?
• 48:25
  Speaker 11: You know, people are trying to be supported of the family.
• 48:31
  Speaker 7: I was very moved.
• 48:32
  Speaker 11: A bunch of folks came together and people heartfelt. People
• 48:35
  Speaker 11: have put flowers and displays in front of the home,
• 48:39
  Speaker 11: and people came together to clean up the displays. You know,
• 48:44
  Speaker 11: people have are thinking about her. The yellow ribbons that
• 48:48
  Speaker 11: you've seen in the neighborhood. We're saddened. We all saw
• 48:52
  Speaker 11: the interview. You can't help but be moved and heartbroken
• 48:56
  Speaker 11: by the the pain that family suffered, and truly truly
• 49:05
  Speaker 11: want some resolution and some solace to come from this.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: Have you observed any activity at missus Guthrie's home. You know,
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: there are still.
• 49:15
  Speaker 11: A few streamers about, but beyond that, I mean, the
• 49:20
  Speaker 11: neighborhood has settled down.
• 49:22
  Speaker 7: I do see people.
• 49:23
  Speaker 11: Coming and I think it's very meaningful to them to.
• 49:29
  Speaker 7: Kind of stand in front of the home and process.
• 49:32
  Speaker 7: But it's it's been much quieter. But despite it being quieter,
• 49:36
  Speaker 7: what about by law enforcement?
• 49:38
  Speaker 11: You know, you know I've not seen once again. I
• 49:42
  Speaker 11: walked by twice a day with the dogs. I have
• 49:46
  Speaker 11: not seen a lot of activity. I know there's security
• 49:50
  Speaker 11: around the house. There's been a security system set up,
• 49:54
  Speaker 11: a little bit of media, but I've not seen personally activity.
• 49:58
  Speaker 7: But then again, I'm only walking twice a day.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: Did your dog Joelane know missus Guthrie? Perhaps we passed
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: her quite often, right, We.
• 50:08
  Speaker 7: Saw less of her.
• 50:11
  Speaker 11: Recently, but early on, when we've lived here six years,
• 50:16
  Speaker 11: we would walk by the home and at that time
• 50:18
  Speaker 11: we would see her up front with her dog at times.
• 50:21
  Speaker 11: So perhaps my sight and we all know that dogs
• 50:25
  Speaker 11: have incredible sense of smell, so.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: Perhaps question did she still have her dog?
• 50:33
  Speaker 7: My understanding is that her dog.
• 50:36
  Speaker 11: This is under an understanding that someone had expressed to
• 50:38
  Speaker 11: me that in December that perhaps her dog had passed away,
• 50:42
  Speaker 11: but we had not seen her dog recently.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: That video you saw us for our friends at Fox
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: five in Vegas. What was your response to the haters
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: and how does it make you feel that your dog,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: Joelane specifically may have thwarted the kidnappers plan.
• 50:59
  Speaker 11: You know, I initially I was not going to talk
• 51:03
  Speaker 11: to the media, but someone encouraged me and said that
• 51:07
  Speaker 11: this keeps attention on this case, It keeps awareness of
• 51:12
  Speaker 11: the reward, it keeps awareness of someone perhaps coming forth
• 51:16
  Speaker 11: with information that might be helpful.
• 51:19
  Speaker 7: So there would be a value to doing this. And
• 51:22
  Speaker 7: there are people who are going to be critical, but
• 51:24
  Speaker 7: the reality is.
• 51:27
  Speaker 11: Perhaps this can add value, and I'm going to dismiss
• 51:32
  Speaker 11: those criticisms and move forward, and let's try to be helpful,
• 51:36
  Speaker 11: Let's try to be supportive, and let's try to move
• 51:38
  Speaker 11: forward and move towards perhaps some resolution, some solace, some
• 51:45
  Speaker 11: progress with this case.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: Jeff let me joining us. He is the owner of Jolene,
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: the dog, who may very well have thwarted the kidnappers'
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: original plans.
• 51:58
  Speaker 10: That night, everybody, I wanted to come on and just
• 52:06
  Speaker 10: share a few thoughts as we enter into another week
• 52:13
  Speaker 10: of this nightmare.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Tonight, we learned the FBI is trying to reverse engineer
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: what could be two legitimate ransom notes. We are also
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: learning that the crime scene where Missus Guthrie was literally
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: dragged out off her bed, no shoes and pj's was
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: quote immaculate when LA law enforcement got there, and when
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: Annie and her husband got there.
• 52:41
  Speaker 10: Listen, I mean from the very early moments, you know,
• 52:45
  Speaker 10: Annie and Tommy were saying, this isn't this isn't that
• 52:49
  Speaker 10: case that you are used to where someone wanders off.
• 52:52
  Speaker 10: She can't wander off. My mom her she was in
• 52:57
  Speaker 10: tremendous page. Her back was very bad. You know, she
• 53:02
  Speaker 10: was trying to On a good day she could walk
• 53:05
  Speaker 10: down into the mailbox and get the mail, but most
• 53:07
  Speaker 10: days not.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: And the doors were propped on bin yeh.
• 53:11
  Speaker 10: And there was blood on the front doors, and the
• 53:15
  Speaker 10: ring camera had been yanked off, and so we were saying, this.
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: Is do something.
• 53:22
  Speaker 10: This is not okay, Yeah, this isn't. Something is very
• 53:28
  Speaker 10: wrong here.
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. From our friends at Today on YouTube, as a
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: matter of fact, they thought Annie thought that there had
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: been a medical emergency because the home was not ransacked
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: in any way. Straight out to Bob Krieger, joining me
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: out of Arizona, this jurisdiction, former SWAT commander at p
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: MC County Sheriff's Office, thirty years in law enforcement. They're
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: in Arizona, Bob Kreeger, thank you for being with us tonight.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: I understand why Savannah and sister Annie thought that they
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: go in. Everything as we're hearing is pristine and quote immaculate,
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: not what you would expect in a kidnapping, saying right,
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: not at all.
• 54:18
  Speaker 5: If I would have.
• 54:18
  Speaker 12: Walked into that scene, I would have thought to myself,
• 54:21
  Speaker 12: you know, nothing really happened here, and hearing the way
• 54:25
  Speaker 12: it's been described all of those things, the first thought
• 54:28
  Speaker 12: I would have had as well, probably as a first
• 54:30
  Speaker 12: responder and an officer, and seeing this probably a medical emergency,
• 54:33
  Speaker 12: start reaching out to the paramedics, the local fire agencies,
• 54:37
  Speaker 12: see if they had any calls to Nancy's house, and
• 54:39
  Speaker 12: then proceed from there. But to hear that it was
• 54:43
  Speaker 12: there were no signs of a struggle inside or anything
• 54:46
  Speaker 12: like that. Even if it were, you know, a medical
• 54:49
  Speaker 12: emergency on her part, you would see something, something would
• 54:52
  Speaker 12: be knocked over probably, So yeah, it's very surprising to
• 54:55
  Speaker 12: hear that was immaculate.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: Decide, you know, think about it, though, Bomb, she's eighty
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: four years old. Eighty four years old. Without her hearing aids,
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: she can't hear what the purpose saying. She doesn't know
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: what they're saying. I assume that she doesn't have twenty
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: twenty or twenty nineteen vision. I don't know what she
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: could see was happening being woken up at two o'clock
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: in the morning. So do you really think, Bob, that
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: she could put up much of a struggle. My mom,
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: who's ninety four, can barely stand up. I have to
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: hold her to get her from the love seat to
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: the wheelchair or the walker. And it's a good day
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: that she can walk from her room through the kitchen
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: back to the twins rooms. That's a good day. So
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: how much of a fight do you really think Nancy
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: Guthrie could put up?
• 55:53
  Speaker 12: Not much of a fight at all, if any everything
• 55:56
  Speaker 12: that you hit on, you know, if she were in
• 55:59
  Speaker 12: that ste you know, even if she would have fallen
• 56:02
  Speaker 12: over or slipped, you would think there would be some
• 56:04
  Speaker 12: signs of something in disarray. Trying to carry one hundred
• 56:08
  Speaker 12: and fifty pound woman holding her up doing however, you're
• 56:10
  Speaker 12: trying to get.
• 56:10
  Speaker 7: Her from point A to point B.
• 56:12
  Speaker 12: Something's gonna get bumped, something's gonna get knocked, a vase
• 56:15
  Speaker 12: is gonna get knocked over. You're gonna see something, And
• 56:18
  Speaker 12: that's what the investigators are looking for as far as
• 56:21
  Speaker 12: signs of a struggle go. It doesn't necessarily mean there's
• 56:23
  Speaker 12: a fight going on. But she is not moving easily.
• 56:27
  Speaker 12: And imagine how scared someone's going to be in that instance.
• 56:31
  Speaker 7: They're not gonna, you know, just go with you.
• 56:33
  Speaker 12: But they're gonna be pulled and pushed, and all of
• 56:35
  Speaker 12: those things are happening, So you would expect to see
• 56:37
  Speaker 12: something out of place.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: Somewhere and again, Bob Krieger, former SWAT commander there in
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: p mccounty thirty years. For all I know, she may
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: have had on a second pair of hearing aids. She
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: may have had on her glasses. But even if even
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: if she did, she couldn't put up a fight. She
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: couldn't even walk to the mailbox. So I don't know
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: why everybody's acting like, oh, there was no struggle. She
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: couldn't struggle. Are they that surprised that she kept her
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: home as neat as a pen? The purp went in,
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: got her and went out. You said you found it unusual.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: I don't find it unusual at all. When my mom
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: lived at home, her home was immaculate, perfect at all times.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: She wouldn't go to bed if there was a dish
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: in the sink. So why is everyone so surprised that
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: the home was immaculate, including you, Kraiger. Why Because if.
• 57:37
  Speaker 12: Someone comes into your house and you're not expecting them,
• 57:41
  Speaker 12: my house is fairly immaculate as well, and there's going
• 57:44
  Speaker 12: to be something that's going to be out of place.
• 57:46
  Speaker 12: It's just you're not going to acquiesce to their demands.
• 57:50
  Speaker 12: I don't care how old, You're going to use every
• 57:52
  Speaker 12: ounce of energy you have to fight that person off,
• 57:55
  Speaker 12: and something's probably gonna get.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: Get Yeah, you bob, how tall are you?
• 58:01
  Speaker 4: I'm six one.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: How much do you weigh?
• 58:06
  Speaker 7: About two hundred and five pounds?
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: And I bet you work out right.
• 58:12
  Speaker 5: Regularly.
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: Yes, I bet you could put up a fight. She couldn't.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: If somebody tried to drag you out of your bet
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: at two am hgl yes, the place would be torn apart.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: But again, you keep talking about putting up a fight.
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: Didn't you just agree with me? Nancy Guthrie cannot put
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: up a fight. They picked on an Lol, a little
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: old lady. She can barely walk. There's not evidence of
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: a fight. I don't know why. Why are you saying
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: that there would be evidence of a fight. Just answer
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: me succinctly.
• 58:50
  Speaker 7: They're not evidence.
• 58:51
  Speaker 12: Of a fight, evidence of something happening, movement, something knocked over.
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: I don't care.
• 58:56
  Speaker 12: If you're alive, you're going to fight somewhat. You're going
• 58:59
  Speaker 12: to push something, knock something over. Not saying a knockdown,
• 59:02
  Speaker 12: drag out fight. But there's going to be signs of
• 59:05
  Speaker 12: something happening in there that's unusual at the family.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: Who is he?
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: You mean?
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: Like maybe blood on the doorstep and the door propped
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: open in the back. Maybe something like that. Would that
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: qualify in your mind for evidence that something went wrong?
• 59:21
  Speaker 12: Yes, things such as that, something simple, something subtle, that
• 59:26
  Speaker 12: might not stick out to the normal person, but to
• 59:28
  Speaker 12: Annie when the family gets there and they're walking through
• 59:31
  Speaker 12: the saying that's not right, that's out of place, not
• 59:34
  Speaker 12: saying that the house would have been ransacked, drawers pulled out,
• 59:37
  Speaker 12: things like that.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: Okay, now you and I are on the same page.
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: I get it, And the last thing I want to
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: do is take on a former SWAT commander from Pema County.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: I want to agree with you, but at this juncture,
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: when I hear claims thrown out that contradict the fact
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: that she was kidnapped, I don't like it because there
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: is no other solution. There is no other answer right now.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: This was not a burglary gone wrong. This was not
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: a this was not a theft. They didn't come in
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: to steal and go, oh you know what, forget taking
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: the money. I'm just going to take the eighty four
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: year old grandma that didn't happen. Dave Mack joining US
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter. What is the significance of these
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: claims that the home was immaculate? Why is everyone going
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: cray over that, because, of course rahim's immaculate.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it makes sense to me.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: But you know, Nancy, I'm a little confused over initial
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: reports that said other things, that there were things out
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: of place, they knew something that law enforcement said they
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: knew something happened right away and immediately called in homicide detectives.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: So immaculate, I guess that means furniture is in its
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: proper place, there's no dirt on the floor that they
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: can see. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: they mean by immaculate. Most homes I've been into that
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: have an elderly person, they are immaculate. Everything's where it belongs,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: everything is in its proper place. But you're talking about
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: getting an eighty four year old woman out of that house, Nancy,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: I agree with you one hundred percent. She's not going
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: to be easily taken out of the house because she
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: doesn't move well. It's going to require a lot. It's
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: going to require at least two people to get her
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: out of the house. And if you doubt, I don't
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 3: see how things can't be bumped.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 4: So I'm a little confused over this idea.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: I don't understand why you're saying you're confused. What's confusing you.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: I'm not confused at all.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: Okay, I'm thinking if I was to help take someone
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: out of a home that is not able to move
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: on their own, I would be bumping into stuff. If
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: I don't know the layout, I would be knocking things over.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: It just seems obvious to me. And by the way,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: if I'm kidnapping somebody, I'm not going back to.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 4: Pick it up.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: The back door being open, that does not seem immaculate
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: to me. The back door open indicates it's not immaculate.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: So I'm just That's where I'm confused.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 4: Nancy. I don't get the idea.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: That they got an eighty four year old woman out
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: of the house without messing something up.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you this, Dave mac having had
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: my mom live with us now almost eleven years, I
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: don't knock the furniture over when I get her out
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: on her walker, and I have to carry her to
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: put her on the walker and push her out because
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: you don't want to be in a wheelchair. She'd rather
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: me pull her on her walker. But I don't knock
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: over the furniture. I'm very curious why you think that
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: would have to happen, because it does to what I
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: want to hear this.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: You know what you're doing. It's your mother. You're being
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: careful with her. You know the layout, you know where
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: the chairs are, you know where everything is. Nancy, you
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: put it there.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: You can see where the chairs are. I don't need
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: to know. I don't need to see a floor plan
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: to see a chair.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: I'm just saying somebody who's in there can take over.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: Got you all tied up in knots, I'm gonna let
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: you untie them yourself to Brian Fitzgibbons, joining us Director
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: Operations USPA nation Wide Security, leading a team of investigators
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: around the world finding and extracting missing people former Marine
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: Iraqi war vet. I don't think you need to trash
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: the place or turn over the furniture to get an
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: eighty four year old grandma out of the home, especially
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: if there are two able bodied young men like the
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: one we see on her front step. You don't have
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: to flip over the lamps and tear the pictures down
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: off the wall. Hey, let's see the inside of Nancy
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: Guthrie's home from that Today Show clip. This is from
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: this is when Savannah came home and they did a
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: special segment. Okay, what is there to turn over? I
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: don't get yea what anybody is talking about. There is
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: a bedside table with the lamp. There's plenty of space
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: coming around. I think she sleeps on the left side
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: of the bed because there is her little digit clock
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: right there. So I don't get it. Fitzgibbons. Of course,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: the place is going to be immaculate. And by the way,
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: she does have rugs on her floor, which is a
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: whole other can of worms for our expert, our DNA
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: expert to talk about. We were wondering last night if
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: she had a rug in her entrance hall. We know
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: she's got rugs. I'll circle back with Tammy Ballard on that.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: But I don't have to turn over the furniture to
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: get a ninety four year old woman onto a walker
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: and out of the house. I don't get it. But hey,
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: my mind is open. What clue does this give me?
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: Fitzgibbons, I think, with this new information, with the home
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: being immaculate, the door's propped open, you know here for me, obviously,
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: it's not going to be difficult for two able bodied
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: men to move an eighty four year old woman without
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: knocking things over. But what it calls into question is
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: the timeline that Sheriff Nanos published that gives these perpetrators
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: roughly forty some odd minutes inside the house. So, you know,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: this new information makes me question are their problems with
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: that timeline.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: We are also learning that the back door may have
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: been propped open with flower pots. I don't know if
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: that's credible, but we do know the door was propped
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: open with something. If that's true. If that's true that
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: flower pots were used, it tells me that was not
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: the original plan that the kidnappers found. It was a
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: vail and they used it in order to prop the
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: door open. Let's think about for instance, let's go to
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: Scott ker on this forensics expert founding member FBI Cellular
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: Analysis serve A team twelve years Norfolk, Virginia, PD Homicide
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: now Precision Cellular Analysis. Scott thank you for being with us.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: Think about it. Compare Brian Coburger. He came with a
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: kburd knife that he ordered on Amazon. He came dressed
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: in clothes to conceal his identity. He was prepared. He
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: did not need to use a flower pot to open
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: and prop open a door. So what does this tell
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: you about the purpose if in fact that report is true.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 5: Well, I think there's several different reasons why they might
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 5: prop open the door. One is they're trying to get
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 5: Nancy out. We've just just discussed how hard it be
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 5: to move an eighty four year old lady that can't
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 5: walk on herself by herself. So having two gentlemen or
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 5: two kidnappers grabbing her by the arms or the underneath
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 5: her arms to try to get her out the door,
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 5: it's much easier to prop open a door to get
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 5: her out that way.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: Now I'm talking to you about the use of flower pots.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 5: I understand that. But if you are used, if you're
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 5: doing that, you want to prop open the door with
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 5: a whatever's nearby, which makes sense. You know, if it's
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 5: a back door, you's got a lot of flower pots
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 5: in the backyard there, just move one over to prop
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 5: that door open, so you're not messing with the door
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 5: as you're trying to get her out.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: Bob Krieger, what does it tell you if in fact
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: this report is true that flower pots were used to
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: prop the door open, it tells me the part wasn't
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: prepared and didn't plan for it.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 12: I actually think the opposite that Nancy. I think they
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 12: were planned for it, and propping it opens just a
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 12: way of keeping it open. But I think if this
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 12: is true, the initial plan was they were going to
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 12: walk her out the back door, around the back gate
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 12: that was propped open as well, and into a car.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 12: Something happened to change that plan, and that's probably why
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 12: they went out the front door with the blood where
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 12: you find blood. I know from my experience, whenever we
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 12: would do a swap warm we'd go into a house,
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 12: you always want to have a plan of egress. You
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 12: want to know exactly how you're leaving that house. So
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 12: they went in one door, you want to go out
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 12: that same door, Get in, get out as quick as
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 12: you can. Something probably happened they went to whatever their
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 12: plan B was, and then they went out the front door.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 12: Probably that would be my estimation as to why that
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 12: back door was open and propped open like that.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 10: I wanted to come on and it's been two weeks
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 10: since our mom was taken, and I just wanted to
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 10: come on and say that we still have hope and
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 10: we still believe to whoever has her or knows where
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 10: she is. But it's never too late, and you're not
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 10: lost or alone, and it is never too late to
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 10: do the right thing. And we are here.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: Straight out to a special guest joining us tonight is
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: Tammy Ballard, crimes and consultant specialist investigation and reconstruction and
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: former DNA criminalist at the San Diego p D. Tammy Ballard,
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us with all of the
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: discussion of the immaculate nature of the inside of the home.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: Wouldn't that make it that much more easy to get
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: those electro static prints off the floor?
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 13: Well, Nancy, if the house had been completely locked down
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 13: from the moment that this incident occurs, that is quite
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 13: a good potential. However, this sounds like this whole entire
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 13: scene was family members coming in, law enforcement investigators coming
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 13: into the home. So there's been a lot of traffic
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 13: in that house, which would mean that you would have
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 13: had to have the foresight to lock that scene down
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 13: to be able to look for something like a footwear impression,
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 13: and knowing that you wanted to collect something with an
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 13: electrostatic lift. So again, this would have needed to be
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 13: something that was thought about from the beginning before everybody
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 13: trafficked through this home.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: Let's just pretend that Nano's directed everyone to be careful
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: in the home and keep it pristain the fact that
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: we're hearing it was quote immaculate. Wouldn't that help We
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: see the porch guy coming right up off that gravel walk,
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: if that was on his shoes, Is there a chance
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: of the static lift?
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 14: Yes, there is a chance. So there's two sides to this. First,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 14: you have somebody who's coming in from the outside with
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 14: potential dirt mud maybe on their shoes, so you're looking
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 14: for something that they're leaving behind. But then you're also
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 14: looking for the voids what's missing, which is what actually
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 14: what would be more inclined to do something with an
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 14: electrostatic lift. So if he traffics something in where you
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 14: have mud, dirt, if he steps through any blood that's
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 14: on the interior of the residence, then you have those
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 14: visible footwear impressions. But you also have the opposite of
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 14: having to look for something that may not be visible
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 14: to the naked eye, which was the potential for that
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 14: electrostatic lift to assist on that. And they do know
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 14: that Pema County and the local law enforcement does have
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 14: that in their wheelhouse to potentially have approached that scene
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 14: with that technology.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: Bob Krieger, if it was on their radar, you're the
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: former Swatt commander. They're in Pma County. If they understood
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: the technology behind electrostatic lifts, certainly they would not have
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: destroyed the scene. Agree or disagree? And do you believe
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: with your knowledge of Pema County Sheriff's Department, would they
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: have preserved the flower pots we've been talking about, if
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: in fact that's true, to try to get prince or
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: DNA off of them.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 12: I would agree with that one key to us scene,
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 12: especially once it starts going down the more suspicious line.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 12: You want to preserve everything. So whether it's a homicide
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 12: or a missing person or kidnapping, one way in, one
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 12: way out, that's you. You set that up as the
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 12: first step the unseen to preserve all that evidence. All
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 12: of these things should have been done especially once it
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 12: hit the suspicious nature. If the flower pots were used
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 12: to prop a door open, they absolutely better have been
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 12: taken as evidence. They should not have been left behind.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 7: They should should be taken.
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 12: They should be in need the evidence, uh location right
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 12: now you'll be able to get any potential DNA off
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 12: of that. Who knows how they might have just used
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 12: their foot, but that's something that's vital to the investigation.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 12: You don't want to leave that behind.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: Would A could have? Should a? Bob Kraiger, would a
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: could have? Should have? I know they should have, but
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: do you believe that they did.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 12: I hope that they did not, not knowing they absolutely
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 12: a rookie cop would have taken those that. That's what
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 12: That's all I can say about it. And if they didn't,
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 12: that was a failure in the investigation as well.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: Tammy Ballard. If if and that's a big if they
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: did take them, how hard would it be to get
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: Prince off the flower pots? Maybe even DNA by the
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: way he keeps putting that biteline into his mouth.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 14: Yeah, I would absolutely be looking for both so and
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 14: I hope that they would do that as well. And
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 14: you know, I've seen a lot of scenes and I've
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 14: seen a lot of investigations. Unfortunately, things do get left behind,
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 14: but this has been highlighted in even the media, as
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 14: you know. So I these items could be collected at
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 14: any time at this point, so hopefully if they weren't
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 14: initially collected, they're collected now and they should be examined.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 14: I did have people follow up after the last time
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 14: I was on your show. That's the best part about
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 14: the forensics community. Everybody's like, hey, I did get DNA
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 14: off of foliage. I did get DNA off of this,
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 14: which is great, So maybe you'll help solve this, Nancy.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: I can only pray. You know, earlier we were discussing
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: reverse engineering that we believe that we're being told the
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: FBI is trying to reverse engineer the ransom notes tonight
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: as we're speaking, that is in the process. Scott Iiker
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: joining us, former member of the FBI's cast team. What
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: goes into reverse engineering? What is that?
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 5: So this would be handled by our behavioral analysis unit,
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 5: and these are experts in the field of analyzing words
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 5: and individual's behaviors. So they would take those notes whatever
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 5: form they came in. They would examine the language, the tone,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 5: the words, they were used the handwriting if it came
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 5: in in that fashion. They would also be working with
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 5: the family and with the investigators to try to figure out,
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 5: all right, is this a legitimate ransom note? Is a fake?
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 5: We've ran intoo this before in this case, so they'd
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 5: be working very hard. So that's all that re engineering
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 5: or reverse engineering the ransom note, trying to figure out
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 5: what type of person and hopefully narrow down who the
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 5: suspect is.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 4: Well.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: Rivi has Gibbons Savannah stated that she believed two of
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: the ransom notes. Of the many notes that have come
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: in from vultures, she believes two of them were real.
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: So do you agree or disagree with iker? We understand
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: the FBI is trying to reverse engineer them. Now what
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: does that mean to you? Do you believe it?
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: I think it adds credibility that at least two of
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: the ransom notes are considered to be authentic or you know,
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: there's a high confidence in their authenticity. And the question
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: remains which of those notes, which media outlets were they
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: sent to or were they sent directly to the family.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: That we don't know.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: But all of these things in totality, the fbis dissecting
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: these leads credibility that.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 7: They do believe that these notes were auth.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: That time, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace are the FEDS
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: closing in on block chain analysis of the bitcoin demand.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: That's right, the ransom notes, two of them, Savannah Guthrie
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: believes are quote real. Is that the highest and best
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: evidence leading police to Nancy Guthrie's kidnapper? And tonight we
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: learn evidence in the garage was it totally missed by nanos?
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: want to thank you for being with us. How much
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: of a fight do you really think Nancy Guthrie could
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: put up?
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 12: Not much of a fight at all, even if it
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 12: were a medical emercy at her part, you would see something,
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 12: something would be not over probably. So yeah, that's very
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 12: surprising to hear.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: That was avaculum tide.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: Not what you would expect in a kidnapping saying right,
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: we learn that too, of the multiple ransom notes and
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: all of the bizarre communications may be real.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 10: The two notes that we received that we responded to,
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 10: I tend to believe those are real.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: That from our friends at today on YouTube, Savannah tells
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: us that she believes two of the ransom notes were real. Now,
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: what was in the ransom notes?
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 15: We received an alleged ransom note that we forwarded on
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 15: to the authorities, to the sheriff's department. The FBI called
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 15: us a few hours later, wanted to had a bunch
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 15: of questions.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 4: About that note.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 15: There are deadlines, I say plural deadlines in this letter,
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 15: and one is looming right if this isn't indeed a
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 15: legit letter. This man sent us an email saying that
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 15: he will reveal the name if he gets one bitcoin.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 15: We checked the account all day. He did not receive anything.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 15: The account is bear.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: That's our friend, Harvey Levin ever at TMZ, if you
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: will recall at least two notes. Ransom notes went directly
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: to TMZ and two other local TV outlets straight out
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: to a special guest in joining us airy Redboard. He
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: is the global head of policy and government affairs at
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: TRM Labs. It's the blockchain intelligence company. Former Assistant US
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: Attorney in DC, former senior advisor to the Undersecretary of
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: Terrorism in Financial Intelligence. You can find him at trmlabs
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: dot com. ARII thank you for being with us. Many
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: people believe that bitcoin cannot be traced, and tonight we
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: are learning the FBI believes that's their best lead on
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: who took miss Guthrie. Now, I think it's the video
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: of the porch guy in the video of cars racing by,
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: which is also in your wheelhouse digital evidence. But let's
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: address the ransom notes and the possibility says everybody went
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: radio silent on it of tracing this bitcoin request.
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 16: No, it's a great question. Look, and anytime, first of all,
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 16: thank you for having me on Nancy. Look, anytime that
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 16: there's a cryptocurrency address involved in a case, it's an
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 16: immediate lead. And what most people don't understand about cryptocurrency
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 16: is every transaction occurs on a public blockchain, particularly Bitcoin,
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 16: which is which is public, meaning every transaction is traceable, trackable,
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 16: and immutable. In other words, it's there forever. In other words,
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 16: crypto is the ultimate crime scene. You can go back
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 16: in time. You know what transactions have occurred prior to
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 16: this day involving this cryptocurrency address. Has this address sent funds,
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 16: has it received funds, and ultimately you track and trace
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 16: those funds across blockchains using tools like trm.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, you do know that you're speaking to a trial lawyer.
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: You need to explain what you're saying when you're referring
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: to block chain analysis. Bitcoin transactions, if you look at
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: them in the US anyway, they are recorded. It's almost
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: like a Google doc where everybody's adding stuff in and
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: they are in blocks. It looks like blocks where each
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: entry is made. Think of a spreadsheet and blocks of information. Okay,
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: we typically write in paragraphs. It looks like a block,
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: and then you follow the chain. That's where they get
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: the phraseology block chain analysis. Now slow it down, airy
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: and explain again very slowly, how the FEDS can do
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: this and this is what they're doing right now according
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: to reports.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 16: So what we do with TRM is we take that
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 16: raw blockchain data that you're describing, that alpha numeric address
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 16: day for example, that would be in a ransom note,
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 16: and we layer it with threat intelligence.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: We have a team of threats right there. Right there.
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: You may like the number at the bottom of your
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: check that it's every bitcoin account has an identifiable number
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: like we have a social security number. It's got an
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: identifiable number like a checking account. Is that right? That
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: is correct?
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 16: It's a string.
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: Dummy down, man, dummy down for me. Now start over place.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 16: Absolutely.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 16: So look, every cryptocurrency address is a unique string of
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 16: letters and numbers, and what we do is we associate
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 16: those numbers with threat actors, think terrorist financiers, sanctioned ransomware actors,
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 16: and that allows law enforcement to track and trace the
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 16: flow of funds, to build investigation prosecutions, to ultimately seize
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 16: back those illicit proceeds.
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: There has been a high level of success by the Feds,
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: by the FBI, by the IRS. You know, they're about
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: three inches up everybody's tailpipe. On Bitcoin, every transaction is
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: recorded on a block chain. As Airy just said, Bitcoin
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: wallets have an address and they can be watched by
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: law enforcement. Then the tricky time is when the purp
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: tries to cash it in. But right now we're not
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: at that point because I don't believe that ransom was
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: ever paid straight out to Chris mcdunna joining US veteran
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: homicide detective, over three hundred homicides under his belt. He
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: is the star of the Interview Room on YouTube, and
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: he also is the directory of the Cold Case Foundation. Chris,
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. You immediately flagged a
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: lot of problems with the ransom note. That doesn't mean
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: it's not legitimate.
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 8: Explain Well, the ransom notes in of itself gives us
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 8: a little insight into the behavioral aspects of what the
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 8: suspect maybe you try to pull off here, and if
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 8: you think about it, just what Arry said there, you know,
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 8: to use bitcoin as a you know, a hook into
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 8: the victim.
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 17: Well, automatically, that's just like saying, hey, I'm over here,
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 17: come get me.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 8: Now.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 17: There are some sophistications obviously that are out.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 4: Of my league that Eric could talk about.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 17: But it just doesn't make sense that immediately this bitcoin
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 17: becomes you know, the talking point here for this case,
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 17: and we have that with that guy in Hawthorne, California
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 17: who was arrested, Derek Carilla. So it's a red flag
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 17: in my opinion.
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't think them asking for bitcoin was the
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: red flag. If you will recall, Savannah Guthrie took it
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: seriously enough to say I will pay.
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 10: We received your message and we understand. We beg you
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 10: now to return our mother to us so that we
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 10: can celebrate with her. This is the only way we
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 10: will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 10: we will pay.
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: Airy redboard joining us from t RM Labs. Airy. First
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: of all, there was a delay in the demand for
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: money bitcoin. That's a problem every kidnapping for ransom. You here,
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: immediately give me money and you get proof of life
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: number one. There was a delay number two. From what
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: we understand, there was never proof of life number three
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: going through a news outlet as opposed to directly to
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: the family. That's also unusual, but not unheard of, that
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: you don't go directly to the family. Those three red
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: flags were a problem. That doesn't mean Savannah's wrong. I
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: think she, of all of us, knows what's going on
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: in the investigation. So tell me tonight, right now, aery,
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: who would be on the team' ing the bitcoin address,
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: in other words, tracing the ransomer. That's why I care
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: about the bitcoin address, because that's going to lead me
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: to the perp who's doing it. What kind of people
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: are on this team, this FBI Bitcoin team, it's a
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: great question.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 16: It's called a Virtual Asset Unit within the FBI, and
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 16: there's a team of crypto tracers and they're the best
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 16: in the world. They've built investigations involving ransomware in North Korea,
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 16: hacks and terrorist financing, and what they're doing is they're
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 16: using TRM to track and trace the flow of funds
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 16: to ultimately identify that individual. The problem is, and you
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 16: mentioned this, is that it really needs a payment. A
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 16: transaction must occur in order to start that tracing and tracking,
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 16: because ultimately what you want at the end of the
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 16: day are those funds to be pashed out at a
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 16: cryptocurrency exchange, because when they hit that exchange, that's when
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 16: you can get that underlying user information who owns that account,
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 16: because that exchange would have done the know your customer
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 16: right When you open that account on a crypto change,
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 16: it's like opening a bank account, and that's when you
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 16: can really connect the dots. So crypto tracing is very powerful,
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 16: but you have to have the movement of funds in
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 16: order to really build an investigation.
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: Ary redboard. A lot of people that aren't in our
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: business think that solving a case is like in a
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: movie or on TV. It's all chasing people down a
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: dark alley and pulling a gun and saying phrase. It's
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: not like that. Right now, there is at least one
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: team chasing down this bitcoin address. At least one team.
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: You've got another set of two teams, one in Quantico
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: and one on the ground. They're in Tucson looking for
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 1: digital evidence, which is another one of your specialties. There
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: are multiple teams. Some are looking at the images, some
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: are trying to find a license plate, some are working
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: on fingerprints, are working on like the Cellular Analysis Survey
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 1: team within the FBI, are working on any cell phone,
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: any nav system, any powered up iPad traveling in that
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: neighborhood at that time, not just Jen thirty one, but
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: also all the way back to Jan eleven and Feb one.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: They're looking, They're looking, they're looking. But on this Savannah says,
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: she thinks the two ransom notes for real, except that
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 1: as a given, let's don't debate that anymore. How can
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: we connect the bitcoin account to the perp? Now you
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: mentioned people that would be on the bitcoin analysis team,
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: the crypto chasers. What are they? Hackers? What did they
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 1: get their PhD at Harvard? And crypto chasing? Who are they?
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: What kind of people would be able to do this?
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 16: These are FBI agents and this to across the federal government, IRS,
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 16: Criminal Investigation, Homeland Security, DEA Secret Service. There are this
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 16: cadre of crypto tracers who have access to tools like
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 16: TRM and the training to really do this work. So
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 16: they're in a tool, they go to an address, and
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 16: ultimately they're trying to understand what funds have gone into
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 16: that address, where is that address sending funds? But the
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 16: real key, and I keep coming back to this, is
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 16: you have to have funds ultimately go to a cryptocurrency
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 16: exchange or some other off ramp because the reality is
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 16: most people can't buy stuff with crypto today, so you
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 16: still need to cash out. And that cash out point
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 16: is the key the problem here, and you identified it
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 16: is I think there's an open question about whether a
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 16: payment has ultimately been made and whether those funds are moving.
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 16: And without funds moving, the best crypto tracers in the
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 16: world that the FBI and beyond aren't really able to
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 16: do much with a cryptocurrency address.
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: So do you have to input info to get bitcoin address?
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: Like here's a simple Now a comparison, when you create
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: an email, you have to give a little information to
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: get a new email, like your old email or your
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: phone or your something. So what information do you have
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: to input in order to get that bitcoin account? If any?
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 16: You don't And the reason for that is Bitcoin, unlike
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 16: you're by or unlike other financial institutions, is decentralized. But
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 16: what is centralized are those cryptocurrency exchanges. So if you
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 16: set up an account at a cryptocurrency exchange, that's when
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 16: you have to provide that underlying name, address, social security number, email.
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 16: And that's when that's when law enforcement really gets their
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 16: leads from a crypto address, when those funds go to
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 16: a cryptocurrency exchange, and that's when you send your subpoena
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 16: to that exchange asking for that underlying user information and
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 16: did they use a Gmail account, for example to open
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 16: up that account? Then all of a sudden, you can
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 16: send a subpoena or a search warrant to Google to
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 16: get at those Gmail records. Do you have a cell
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 16: phone provider that was used here? Can you triangulate location
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 16: based on cell tower data? So a bitcoin address when
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 16: the funds are ultimately moving, is a great investigative lead.
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 16: But that's when law enforcement uses all those other tools
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 16: that they have in their toolbox.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: What I was saying earlier, Ariy, is that people expect
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: this high action scenario to play out. It's not always
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: like that. I can remember so many nights sitting in
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: the floor of my office, first as a fed and
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 1: then as a felony prosecutor at Intercity Atlanta, with stacks
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: and stacks of papers in front of me, just stacks
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: and stacks, wading through them, marshaling the evidence, much as
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 1: we do tonight. So it's not always a high speed
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: chase with cars turning over. It's guys and women coming
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: into the office seven am, drinking their coffee and then
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: diving in. So when someone is analyzing this trail, one
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: of the hottest trails we've got in finding Nancy Guthrie,
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: what do they do? Is it all on computer? Are
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: they looking at documents? Are they all together in a
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: conference room? What is it? What does it look like?
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 16: Absolutely, you essentially have an investigator, likely in an office,
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 16: in front of a laptop or a computer, who's in
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 16: a tool like TRM. You know, it's an application that
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 16: actually shows funds moving on a blockchain. There's a user
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 16: interface that creates graphs and you're saying to yourself, all right,
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 16: I'm looking at that initial address that's in the ransom note,
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 16: where are funds going? And then you start tracing and
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 16: you have these really cool graphs that are following the
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 16: money in real time. The problem is you need that
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 16: initial payment in order to start that activity right and
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 16: open question about whether or not we have that today.
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 16: So that crypto address is a very very powerful investigative lead,
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 16: but again, you need a payment to be made one
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 16: way or another.
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: To Joseph Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University.
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: He is the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: and he is a star of a hit podcast, Bodybags.
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: At Joseph Scott Morgan for my Purposes. He is a
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: death investigator with over ten thousand death scenes under his belt.
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: I don't believe any ransom was ever paid, even though
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: Savannah believes, and I believe her that two of those
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: ransom notes were from people connected to the kidnapping of
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie, because they never offered proof of life.
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 9: Never Okay, well yeah they didn't. And to that point,
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 9: we have to we have to begin to think about
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 9: what's her status at this point in time. And you
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 9: know that's a big that's a big piece to this,
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 9: isn't it, Nancy, Because suddenly we have all of the
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 9: static and all of this chatter, and then it just
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 9: drops off into nothingness. So I wonder if these individuals
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 9: that have perpetrated this crime are left, you know, kind
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 9: of scratching their head, thinking, oh, what in the world
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 9: do we do at this point in time, because, as
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 9: you mentioned, my background is as a death investigator, and
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 9: right now I don't have a lot of hope at
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 9: this point in Tom Nancy, particularly considering you know how
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 9: much Tom has gone by, and in addition to that,
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 9: what type of physical help she was in.
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: Right I'm referring, I'm strictly focusing on solving this case.
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: I'm not apining as to whether Missus Guthrie has passed on.
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about the problem with the ransom note. The
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: problem is it went to a news outlet, not the family.
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: It was not immediate as you would expect in a
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: ransom note. They want their money, and they want the
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: whole thing over. Then they want to fly to France
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: where they can hide, and they never offer proof of life.
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 1: Those or many of the problems. Guys, We've heard a
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: lot in the last thirty six hours about the home
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: being quote immaculate. What would you expect from missus Guthrie.
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: Of course, the home was immaculate, I think what they're
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: trying to say is what she wasn't forced out of
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: the home. Well, she was. Savannah says that her mother
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: was taken from her bed in her pajamas with no shoes,
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: and we see Missus Guthrie's blood on the front porch,
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: so it's not immaculate. That's video of the inside of
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: Missus Guthrie's home from our friends at Today on YouTube
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 1: on one of Savannah's visits, I want you to look
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 1: at a photo, a photo of the front of Missus
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 1: Guthrie's home. Now, in this photo it became relevant because
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: a state worker had been at the home after she
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: went missing and put her card up there. But look
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: at the inside of the home. There you see, and
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: it is immaculate. Nothing was turned over, there was no
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: struggle there, and importantly, Joe Scott, no rug. There are
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 1: also reports that there was blood on the interior of
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: the door. But what do you make of what we're seeing.
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 1: There's no sign of struggle. What can you do with this,
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott. By the way, that's when Crystal m a
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: R eighty seven, Crystal mar eighty seven on X go ahead,
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott.
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 9: Yeah, So when you're taking a look at that image,
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 9: you know, one of the things that really stands out
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 9: is that little table that's in the background, and there
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 9: is that lamp that's precariously positioned there when you think
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 9: about that, and interestingly enough, that lamp looks very similar
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 9: to the one that we saw just a moment ago
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 9: in her bedroom. She was making her bed. At any rate,
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 9: when when we work a case, Nancy, one of you know,
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 9: the classic statement we see, we say is no sign
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 9: a force entry, no signs of struggle. If there was
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 9: in fact a struggle, could it have potentially involved that
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 9: little table. Could they have just swept right past it
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 9: and it not be touched. Well, yeah, that's the possibility.
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 9: But just from that view alone, and again this is
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 9: one little sliver, we're not seeing anything there that would
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 9: be indicative of a struggle where somebody is rolling around
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 9: the ground. Where we have broken furniture, toppled fixtures, that
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 9: sort of thing, that's nothing like you would normally expect
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 9: to see. And here's the other bit to this you
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 9: had mentioned, and we talked about this extensively the other day.
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 9: There appears to be no internal rug. From that little perspective,
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 9: there I'm not saying that it couldn't be out of view,
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 9: but there's no runner visible, which you see many times
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 9: at front doors on the interior as opposed the exterior.
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 9: So yeah, there wouldn't have been anything to have collected
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 9: relative to a rug to bring in to do analysis. There. Again,
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 9: we go back to the welcome math that's in front
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 9: the door, which of course was not collected initially.
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: And we've got some close ups too on the debris
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: of the upper right hand side that one. Okay, there's
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: your shot. What about it, Joe Scott.
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm looking at this, Nancy. And you know the
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 9: thing about blood is everybody thinks that they can spot it.
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 9: Guess what you can't, And particularly when you have a
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 9: mat like this that's black. Now, if the thing was
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 9: maybe beige or white or something like that, maybe it pop. Okay,
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 9: And remember it seems we don't call blood blood, we
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 9: say a bloodlocked substance. We have to test that to
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 9: make sure it's blood. But guess what in this case,
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 9: with that deposition there, we already know something here. They
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 9: have tested that blood that does come back as her blood.
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 9: I don't know what's on that carpet. Also, there could
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 9: be footprints on that carpet as well that you would
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 9: have to use alternative lighting in order to essentially raise
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 9: So again we've talked about maybe contact with a shoeprint
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 9: to the blood, maybe it was transferred over onto the mat,
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 9: but this thing's not collected. The big question that I
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 9: oppose this to you, Nancy, how in the hell are
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 9: you going to analyze something if you don't collect it
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 9: and take it back to be analyzed.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: Good point, And I want to show you a photo
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 1: we obtain at the get Go. It's off the front
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: porch with a tent around it. It's in broad daylight.
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: This shot from our friend Matt Finn FNC on X.
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: If you will recall when this first occurred, Joe Scott Morgan,
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: I suggested to you that the tent could be there
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: to get to use als alternative light source. Could you,
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 1: in a nutshell explain what that means?
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 9: Well, light works at various different spectrums, and so you
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 9: need to have a controlled environment when you see the
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 9: tent essentially there, If that in fact is what they
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 9: were using it for, you want to be able to
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 9: shut down and control the amount of light that's coming
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 9: in because you're going to be using what's referred to
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 9: as alternative light sources. This can be things like infrared.
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 9: There's certainly other things that we apply it scenes and
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 9: what you're trying to pick up on our little nuances
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 9: that are going to illumin s through this varied light
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 9: spectrum that we can actually document photographically, and we do
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 9: it in real time. And here's the real crux of this.
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 9: We have to do it. We have to do it
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 9: in an environment where the evidence is collected in what's
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 9: referred to as insight too. That means in place, so
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 9: it's a reference point. If you take a shot and
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 9: a reference point relative to that door. In the event
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 9: that this scene does go to jail, does go to jury,
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 9: they have that point of context so that they can
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 9: absolutely understand it and contextualize it.
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 1: This shot from our friend Matt sen FNC on X
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: speaking on and by the way, it may be of
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: no probit to value at this juncture, but you're right
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: that doormat, which was probably teeming with forensic evenance, was
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: not collected until it was too late and all the
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: evidence likely destroyed. Let me go back to that photo
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: on the inside of Miscuthriy's foyer, because on it, and
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: I keep getting questions about this. You see a business
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: card once and for all, Dave mac joining US Crime
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter. What is the business card?
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 3: It is an Adult Protective Services card belonging to an
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 3: advanced investigator by the name of Debra M.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 4: Her name is written on the card.
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 3: An advanced investigator with Adult Protective Services in Tucson would
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 3: be a professional field investigator employed by the Arizona Department
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 3: of Economic Securities APS unit, whose job is to investigate
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 3: reports of abuse, neglect, exploitation, or self neglect. And in
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 3: this case, when Nancy Guthrie was reported missing, APS got involved,
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 3: and that's why the card was placed in the door.
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 3: There was nobody home at the time that Deborah placed
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 3: the card in the door.
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: So no mystery. It's all been determined that she was
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 1: brought out after Missus Guthrie went missing, and that's it.
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 1: There was no elder abuse going on. Deborah M was
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 1: not her regular quote case worker, nothing of that sort.
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: Is that correct?
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 4: Absolutely correct?
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: You're sure?
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 4: Yep?
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, moving forward, I want to talk about evidence missed
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 1: within Nancy Guthrie's garage. Let's take a look at her
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: home that includes a shot of her garage. We are
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 1: learning that Nancy Guthrie rarely used the front door, and
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 1: I assume this extends to the back door, which is
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: even harder to get to this video guys from our
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 1: friends at twelve News, she typically used the garage door.
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: Now Chris McDonald joining US director COLCASESE Foundation, former homicide
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: detective Chris My parents did the same exact thing that
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 1: pull up, do the garage door and go in that way.
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 1: It's just easier. It's just easier. And they believed the
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: garage door gave them security, which I agree with them,
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 1: and would very often leave the door from the garage
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 1: into the laundry room, which went into the kitchen. They'd
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 1: leave that unlocked because the garage door protected them. You see.
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: So that pull up, open the garage door with the clicker,
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: go in to me forever to make them do this,
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 1: shut the garage door, and then get out and go
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 1: in to make sure nobody would come in there. Said
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 1: that leave that door unlocked going into the kitchen the
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: laundry room. That we understand is MS Guthrie's practice. But
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 1: we are now understanding that evidence may have been missed
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 1: in the garage and now it's too late. What should
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 1: have been done in the garage? Chris? And what do
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 1: you think about this?
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 17: So right there we learn a little bit about what
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 17: we would call pattern of life in the victimology aspect
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 17: of this thing. And that just tells us, okay, Missus Guthrie,
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 17: this is how she does things. It's not unusual for
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 17: homes around anywhere to have the interior garage doores not locked. Okay,
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 17: So it's a good idea for your audience. Always locked
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 17: those interior garage doores that set. The investigators should have
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 17: processed that entire garage almost immediately.
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: They should have.
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 17: They did tow her car out of there, but they
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 17: really should have, you know, give it one hundred percent.
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 17: You know, alternate light sources, you know, finding footprints, throwing
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 17: powder on there, Nancy. On that one helicopter shot over
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 17: the house that you showed just a couple of minutes ago,
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 17: I noticed the gate appears to be opened. And is
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 17: this the prompt open gate? Right there? Is this the
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 17: prompt open gate that Savannah was talking about, you know,
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 17: because she said there were three doors that were propped open,
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 17: two underneath that patio and then the gate itself show
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 17: that should have been a red flag also for the investigators.
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 1: The video, the aerial video we're showing you is from
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 1: our friends at twelve News. Take a listen to what
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 1: Savannah said.
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 10: I mean, from the very early moments, you know, Annie
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 10: and Tommy were saying, this isn't. This isn't that case
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 10: that you are used to where someone wanders off. She
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 10: can't wander off my mom her she was in tremendous pain.
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 10: Her back was very bad. You know, she was trying to.
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 10: On a good day she could walk down to the
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 10: mailbox and get the mail, but most days not.
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: So there was no.
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 10: Wander off, and the doors were opt omen and there
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 10: was split on the front doors, and the ring camera
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 10: had been yanked off, and so we were saying, this.
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 1: Is do something.
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 10: This is not okay, this isn't. Something is very wrong here.
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, from our friends at today YouTube. You're right. She
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 1: says the doors were propped open. I didn't hear anything
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 1: about a gate or three door slash gates. I heard doors,
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 1: and we know the back door was propped open, reportedly
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: with flower pots. Don't know if that's true. Why do
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 1: I care? It could mean something probative wise, Why were
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: they used? Were they touched with a bare fingertip? Is
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 1: their DNA on them? That said? You're right? Doors propped open.
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 1: But I want to talk to you about the garage door.
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: The garage door we know for a fact closed Jan
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 1: thirty one. What time Nancy arrived home nine forty eight pm?
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 1: The garage door closed at nine five zero, nine fifty.
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 1: There was a blue Subaru that remained part in her garage.
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: It was towed away for analysis. So at least they
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 1: pulled out the subaru. So straight out to airy redboard
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 1: joining us. What should have been done forensically in the garage?
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 16: Look, you want to ultimately take over that crime scene entirely.
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 16: You want to block it off. You don't want anyone
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 16: in and out, and you want to do absolutely everything
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 16: you can to gather every piece of evidence as quickly
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 16: as possible, which is really the key here.
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 1: What about it, Joe Scott? I know you agree with
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 1: what Aerry just said what more should have been done?
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 1: And I assume you agree with me that now it's
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 1: too late to get anything.
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 9: Yeah, that train left the station a long long time ago. Nancy,
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 9: you know anything that you would find right now at
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 9: this point in, Tom, you would have great questions that
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 9: would be asked about the veracity of the of the
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 9: of the evidence, whether or not it was still valid
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 9: load these many weeks. So yeah, I mean, listen, I
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 9: don't care what level you're at as an investigator. There
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 9: are just some basic tenets that you hold to, and
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 9: that the number one thing is security of the scene.
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 9: Is not just the scene, it's that evidence that is
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 9: contained therein those things that are unseen and unseen. We
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 9: cannot go out contrary to what the public things, we
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 9: cannot go out to a scene and microscopically observe it
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 9: and pick up on everything there. It takes time because
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 9: there are things that have to be collected and then
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 9: brought in and analyzed in a controlled environment.
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 1: Well, the reality is, Joe Scott, and you pointed it out.
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 1: If the front door mat with blood all around, it
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 1: wasn't taken. I don't have a lot of hope for
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 1: evidence retained from the garage. At least they got the
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 1: subaru and a lot of people and I want to
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 1: put this to bed, are stating did she ever make
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 1: it home? Did she really make it home? Yes, she
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 1: made it home. You've got the garage door opening and closing.
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 1: You have her pacemaker connected to her Bluetooth. It then
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: spikes around two AM and then disconnects. So that would
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: have to be a hell of a conspiracy to cover
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: all those tracks, to fake the garage door opening and closing,
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 1: to fake her pacemaker connecting to her WiFi her Bluetooth
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 1: at home, and then severing that connection around two a m.
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 1: So I just don't see a conspiracy involving her never
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 1: making at home. Back out to you, Dave Mack, it's
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 1: my understanding that the guy leading this has never handled
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 1: a homicide.
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 4: You're correct, Nancy.
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 3: It's one of them that has come up during the
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 3: course of this investigation that the lead detective on this
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 3: case has never or the person heading up this investigation
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 3: has not done a homicide investigation. The most experienced person
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 3: deal with this in terms of detectives has two years
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 3: of experience at the Pima County Sheriff's Department. Now, thankfully
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 3: the FBI is involved, but for the first days, Nancy,
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 3: every decision being made by a detective with less than
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 3: two years experience.
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: Amidst claims that Nanas's team did not process the garage
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 1: tonight at least, we know that the FEDS are tracking
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 1: that ransom note bitcoin account and they are calling every
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 1: bit of information. An entire team of bitcoin chasers tracers
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 1: are on it as we go to air. If you
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 1: know or think you know anything about the disappearance of
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll free eight hundred two two
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 1: five five three two four. That's eight hundred calls FBI,
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 1: or if you wish to remain anonymous, five to two
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 1: zero eight eight to two seven four six three. There
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: is a one point two plus million dollar reward for
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 1: information leading to the whereabouts of missus Guthrie. No arrest,
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 1: much less a conviction is required for you to get
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 1: the reward. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight. Good night friend,