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DELPHI SUSPECT CLAIMS GIRLS MURDERED BY “PAGAN” CULT · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
0:06
Speaker 2: Delphi murder suspect is claiming these two little girls, Abby
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Speaker 2: and Libby, ages thirteen and fourteen, were murdered by a
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Speaker 2: pagan cult. This as dreams of evidence is pouring from
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Speaker 2: the witness stand. But what will be allowed in front
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Speaker 2: of a jury? I'm Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories.
0:28
Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us.
0:35
Speaker 1: Who murdered Abigail and Liberty? A suspect is called on
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Speaker 1: video with his menacing instructions down the hill.
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Speaker 2: So much happening in a court of law, But what
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Speaker 2: will the jury be allowed to hear?
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Speaker 1: Something really doesn't seem.
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Speaker 2: Right that we know all of this evidence, but the
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Speaker 2: jury may never know it.
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Speaker 3: For instance, testimony during the hearings confirmed several details about
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Speaker 3: the crime scene. Both Abby and Libby's throats are cut
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Speaker 3: and the girl's bodies are covered with branches. Libby is
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Speaker 3: found completely nude, and Abby is dressed in both hers
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Speaker 3: and some of Libby's clothing. Aside from the neck area,
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Speaker 3: the clothing found on Abby is mostly clean.
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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm supposed to believe a pagan cult has as
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Speaker 2: responsibility for the brutal murders of two little girls. One
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Speaker 2: I believe naked, the other one had on the other's clothing.
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Speaker 1: Hold on, let's get the facts straight.
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Speaker 2: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
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Speaker 2: what we know right now and living through the entire
1:44
Speaker 2: probative hearing, which means evidence pouring from the witness stand
1:49
Speaker 2: Susan Hendrick's well known investigative reporter, journalist and author of
1:55
Speaker 2: Down the Hill, My Descent into the double Murder in Delphi. Susan,
2:00
Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. There's so much happening.
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Speaker 2: I hate to get bogged down in the whole pagan
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Speaker 2: cult did it. But the reality is the defense is
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Speaker 2: naming actual names as to who they believe are the
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Speaker 2: real murderers connected to this pagan cult.
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Speaker 1: What about it?
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Speaker 4: I believe Nancy, and it's great to be on that.
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Speaker 4: The defense has always tried to establish that that is
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Speaker 4: who they believed killed Abby and libbyan Odus cult. So
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Speaker 4: it was mentioned in that Frank's hearing. It disguised in
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Speaker 4: my opinion, as of Frank's hearing, but really to put
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Speaker 4: out there what they believed happened on that day in
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Speaker 4: twenty seventeen.
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Speaker 2: You're like a locomotive right now, you're steaming for But
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Speaker 2: you're carrying.
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Speaker 1: A payload so much evidence.
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Speaker 2: You know, I taught English briefly while I was waiting
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Speaker 2: to get into law school.
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Speaker 1: I need to dissect, you know, like you.
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Speaker 2: Put the verb here and the adjective here, and you
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Speaker 2: just said a lot and we're like ten seconds into
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Speaker 2: our program.
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Speaker 1: Hold on, So, first of all, you said a frank's hearing.
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Speaker 2: Now, in every jurisdiction, unless you're talking about federal law,
3:11
Speaker 2: states ascribe a different name to their hearing. Now, in
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Speaker 2: this particular jurisdiction, isn't a frank hearing a claim that
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Speaker 2: law enforcement lied in some aspect, be it the problem
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Speaker 2: will cause search warrant or resta warrant, or some other
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Speaker 2: aspect of the case.
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Speaker 1: Isn't that what a frank's hearing is in that jurisdiction?
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Speaker 4: Absolutely, Nancy, I'm glad you stopped me because there is
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Speaker 4: so much information here. I'm used to just saying it
3:37
Speaker 4: the Frank's hearing. What they were alleging was that Sheriff
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Speaker 4: Liggett lied in what he thought was at Richard Allen's
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Speaker 4: home in order to get that search warrant. So the
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Speaker 4: attorneys are trying to throw.
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Speaker 2: Out Wait, wait, wait, what search warrant? There's so many.
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Speaker 2: So the defense is claiming we have to have a
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Speaker 2: Frank's hearing because hey, Sheriff Liggett. Now, okay, I'm not
4:02
Speaker 2: saying the sheriff did or did not lie, but you're
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Speaker 2: also say to hey, with that, that was just a
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Speaker 2: pretense to try to get the defense theory out there. Okay,
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Speaker 2: what are they claiming Liggot lied about.
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Speaker 4: Saying that he specifically had more evidence than he did.
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Speaker 4: It wasn't really clear why they thought he was lying.
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Speaker 4: What they did say was, hey, we need a hearing,
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Speaker 4: we want it tossed out. But Nancy, you.
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Speaker 2: Have sat through days and days of evidence and they
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Speaker 2: never made it clear what Leggott lied about the sheriff.
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Speaker 4: Really the Frank's Hearing was one hundred and thirty six pages.
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Speaker 4: So in that convoluted memo with a lot of grammatical mistakes,
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Speaker 4: was why Liggot lied. And I remember getting that. I
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Speaker 4: was at Crime Connor hearing about it first, and I
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Speaker 4: was with the family members there, and I didn't read
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Speaker 4: the entire memo because to me, it was the defense's
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Speaker 4: way of having the media read it.
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Speaker 2: Well, wait a minute, whether you look, you did not
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Speaker 2: fight your way onto Lauri review at law school. Okay,
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Speaker 2: you don't have to tell me what Sam. I thought
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Speaker 2: it was one hundred and thirty nine pages.
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Speaker 1: But that said, you heard the hearing.
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Speaker 2: Did they ever come forward the defense and claim what
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Speaker 2: Leiggott allegedly lied about? I mean, because I've never known
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Speaker 2: you to be wrong on a fact, Susan ever, so
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Speaker 2: if they didn't give a clear picture about what the
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Speaker 2: Franks claim is after that many days of testimony, Okay,
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Speaker 2: let's just suffice to say they're claiming Ligot lied about
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Speaker 2: a warrant, which warrant a rest or search search search.
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Speaker 4: Of what of Richard Allen's home, which they did end
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Speaker 4: up searching.
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Speaker 2: Because there were so many search warrants, I got to
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Speaker 2: make sure which one is in jeopardy over an alleged
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Speaker 2: lie by the sheriff.
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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on just a moment.
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Speaker 2: I'm going to get into the meat of this, the
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Speaker 2: claim that Norse god worshipers really kill the girls.
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Speaker 1: And everything else's happening in the courtroom.
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Speaker 2: But rich Schownstein is joining me, a veteran trial lawyer
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Speaker 2: partner with Tartar, Krinsky and Drogan. Okay, I don't like
6:16
Speaker 2: that name because your name is not the lead name.
6:20
Speaker 2: I don't like that, and you need to fix that,
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Speaker 2: Rich Schoenstein. Did you just hear Susan Hendrick say it
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Speaker 2: was full of grammatical errors. That may be a small
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Speaker 2: and consequential detail to a lot of people, but I
6:32
Speaker 2: can tell you this after trying so many cases, I've
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Speaker 2: lost count and handling literally about ten thousand felonies.
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Speaker 1: I know that's hard to believe, but think about it.
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Speaker 2: Over ten plus years in a felony courtroom, and you
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Speaker 2: get about one hundred new cases a week added up.
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Speaker 2: Those cases have to be resolved, whether it's a plea
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Speaker 2: or a trial. That said, when I get a brief
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Speaker 2: and the first thing I say, see is a lot
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Speaker 2: of grammatical errors, I'm like, if they didn't even think
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Speaker 2: to do a word check, a spell check and they
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Speaker 2: can't spell, I doubt anything in here is going to
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Speaker 2: really knock me out. Yeah.
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Speaker 5: Well, especially today when you know that spell checks and
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Speaker 5: grammar checks as you type. It's not like the old
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Speaker 5: days when you and I began practicing, where you'd have
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Speaker 5: to type something and then get proof readers on it.
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Speaker 5: The machine proofs it while you go. So if it's
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Speaker 5: full of mistakes, if it's full of grammatical mistakes, if
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Speaker 5: it doesn't make sense, if it doesn't look good, you're
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Speaker 5: going to be less inclined to buy the arguments in it.
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Speaker 6: That's just the bobble.
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Speaker 2: Exactly, and the fact that Susan Hendrix said full of
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Speaker 2: grammatical errors, like she and I are big on grammar
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Speaker 2: and grammatical errors and improper english Jackie. So that said,
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Speaker 2: if that's the first thing you notice the rest of it,
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Speaker 2: you're not going to be impressed.
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Speaker 1: Now can we get to the act evidence. But you
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Speaker 1: know one more thing, Susan Henders, I just want to
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Speaker 1: tell you.
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Speaker 2: You remember the other day you were sitting in the
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Speaker 2: courtroom with the victim's family and Richard Allen, the double
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Speaker 2: murder suspect who I believe stripped both little girls before
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Speaker 2: he killed them, and god only.
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Speaker 1: Knows what else.
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Speaker 2: You mentioned that he kept turning around and glaring at
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Speaker 2: you and the victim's family, and you and I talked
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Speaker 2: about what that meant. People online went bizarre, saying, why
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Speaker 2: are you focusing on the guy staring at Susan Hendricks
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Speaker 2: and the family. That doesn't matter, Actually it does matter.
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Speaker 2: But now get ready because we're going to get it
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Speaker 2: up the tailpipe about talking about grammar, So just go
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Speaker 2: ahead and buckle your seatbelt.
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Speaker 1: Anyway, back to the evidence Listen.
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Speaker 7: Richard Allen's defense is also fighting to have their third
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Speaker 7: party culprit defense heard by the jury. Allen's attorneys insist
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Speaker 7: that law enforcement did not fully investigate five men bound
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Speaker 7: together by a Rushville Odinis club. Their theory stems from
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Speaker 7: a twelve page filing by Trooper Kevin Murphy that the
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Speaker 7: defense refers to as the Odin Report.
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Speaker 3: The defense hires non Pearl Mutter, an expert on ritualistic crimes.
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Speaker 3: Pearl Mutter testifies that the crime scene is textbook. Pearl
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Speaker 3: Mutter sees ruines on the sticks laid on top of
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Speaker 3: Abby and Libby's bodies and points out a blood smear
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Speaker 3: on a tree in the shape of the letter F,
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Speaker 3: explaining that it is significant to Odin Knight's.
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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to need help getting through this because
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Speaker 2: all I can envision are these two little girls, Abby
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Speaker 2: and Libby dead. Susan Hendricks hold on, Susan one moment.
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Speaker 2: I'm going to come back to you about what in
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Speaker 2: the evidence suggests. The defense theory that Accult did this
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Speaker 2: and then I'm going to go to doctor Mark Mirabello,
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Speaker 2: former professor History, Shawnee State University and author of The
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Speaker 2: Odin Brotherhood. Okay, if you want to know more about that,
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Speaker 2: going to Markmirabello dot com The Odin Brotherhood. Okay, Before
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Speaker 2: I get to that, Joe Scott Morgan is with us
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Speaker 2: along with Chris McDonough. Chris mcdonnad director Cold Case Foundation,
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Speaker 2: former homicide detective about three hundred death scenes homicides. To
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Speaker 2: his credit, he is at Colcasefoundation dot org. I found
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Speaker 2: him on the interview room on YouTube. Before I go
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Speaker 2: to him to analyze what Joe Scott's about to say,
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Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan, Joseph Sorry.
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott.
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Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of
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Speaker 2: Blood Beneath My Feet, I'm waiting for the second book,
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Speaker 2: It Hasn't Happened, and host of a hit series Body
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Speaker 2: Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, could you please
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Speaker 2: describe as the defense is twitching its tail and gnashing
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Speaker 2: its teeth, coming up with everybody and their sister that
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Speaker 2: they can blame the murders on. Could you just give
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Speaker 2: me a little reality check, Joe Scott and explain how
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Speaker 2: these girls. I just got chills on my arms because
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Speaker 2: when I said these girls, I thought.
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Speaker 1: About my girl at my boy. How these girls were
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Speaker 1: found lying out in the open dead.
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Speaker 8: Explain it in a very isolated area immediately adjacent to
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Speaker 8: this body of water, that is that has flown, that
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Speaker 8: flows beneath this bridge. It's densely wooded. However, there were
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Speaker 8: no leaves on the tree trees at this point in time.
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Speaker 8: Remember this is back in the early spring or just
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Speaker 8: heading into spring, and they are, in my opinion, from
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Speaker 8: what I'm understanding, essentially pose the bodies have been stripped.
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Speaker 8: And you've got this event that has occurred where they
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Speaker 8: are alleging that one of the bodies has been redressed
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Speaker 8: with the clothing of another.
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Speaker 1: Okay, stop right there, Joe Scotty.
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Speaker 2: You and I are used to looking at dead bodies,
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Speaker 2: were used to analyzing them, every little thing about them,
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Speaker 2: the actual angle of a bullet as it travels through
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Speaker 2: the body, which organs were decimated, trace evidence, touch evidence,
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Speaker 2: fiber evidence, hair.
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Speaker 1: You name it. Can we just pause for a moment.
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Speaker 2: And think about the person that stripped these little girls
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Speaker 2: and then redressed one of them, of course, confusing the clothing.
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Speaker 1: Could you get through that one more time?
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Speaker 2: Out there on the ground in the woods, the little
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Speaker 2: girls stripped, I guess pre mortem.
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Speaker 1: And then do you remember Ted Bundy? Of course you
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Speaker 1: do remember there or there's.
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Speaker 2: Proof that he would actually take some of the victim's
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Speaker 2: bodies and bathe them in a bathtub and fix their
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Speaker 2: hair and makeup. But just think about the ritualistic redressing.
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Speaker 1: The idiot, of course.
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Speaker 2: Used the wrong clothes, but redressing a did child's body.
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Speaker 2: I mean, Joe Scott, we have to slow down and
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Speaker 2: think about these facts.
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Speaker 1: You and I just like spit it out.
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Speaker 2: And it's better for me that way, because when I
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Speaker 2: slow down to think about the facts, I can't sleep
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Speaker 2: at night, I don't feel like eating, I want to cry.
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Speaker 2: But these are the facts and we can't turn away
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Speaker 2: from it.
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott.
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Speaker 8: Yeah, And when you think about this idea of redressing,
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Speaker 8: it's to my way of thinking, at least, it's you have.
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Speaker 8: You know, people throw around the term objectification all the time.
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Speaker 8: This is literally pure objectification, where you're talking about you
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Speaker 8: have dehumanized the individual. They're treated like dolls at this
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Speaker 8: point in time so that you can play dress up
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Speaker 8: with them in some kind of twisted manner. I've actually
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Speaker 8: been involved in a series of serial killings that I've
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Speaker 8: investigated back in the early part of my career, where
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Speaker 8: an individual would do the same thing, and it's it
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Speaker 8: is evidence of kind of a demented mind that does this,
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Speaker 8: that engages in almost this necrophilic behavior.
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Speaker 1: Chilling details emerged during a three day hearing for the
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Speaker 1: Delphi murders.
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Speaker 2: Evidence pouring from the witness stand. But this is what
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Speaker 2: has always driven me crazy, among so many things, is
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Speaker 2: that we on the outside looking in will know more
15:09
Speaker 2: of the evidence than the actual jury will ever know,
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Speaker 2: because so much of this evidence is being ruled out
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Speaker 2: with me an all star panel, and we're stuck on
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Speaker 2: the theory that paganists that worship Norse gods actually murdered
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Speaker 2: Abby and Libby. Joseph Scott Morgan death investigator, and I
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Speaker 2: were just describing how the girls were completely naked and
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Speaker 2: then the killer re dressed one of them, and I'm
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Speaker 2: thinking about the mind of someone that would so desecrate
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Speaker 2: a little girl in this manner. But we may think
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Speaker 2: it's outlandish, we may think it's far fast it is.
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Speaker 1: That's why we think that. But if the defense can
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Speaker 1: snag one.
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Speaker 2: Juror and cause a mische, that's a huge victory for them,
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Speaker 2: just one gurrr that buys into this crazy zany thing. Now,
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Speaker 2: I want you to listen to how they're taking a
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Speaker 2: zany claim that worshippers of the Norse gods. I'm talking
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Speaker 2: about Thor and Odin. You know about the Valkyrie, the
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Speaker 2: women warriors who fly through the sky, and even if
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Speaker 2: they're killed in battle in this pretend world, they arise
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Speaker 2: to fight the next day. Again, that's what they believe. Okay,
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Speaker 2: how can that be translated into a real life defense?
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Speaker 1: Listen.
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Speaker 3: The defense argues that Brad Holder, the father of Abbey's
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Speaker 3: boyfriend and a known odinist, was ruled out as a
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Speaker 3: suspect too quickly. The defense alleges Holder posted several eerie
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Speaker 3: photos on Facebook in the days after the murders, including
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Speaker 3: one that appears to mimic the crime scene. Court documents
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Speaker 3: say the pictures show two girls lying in the woods
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Speaker 3: in positions similar to how Abby and Libby these bodies
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Speaker 3: were discovered. Holder also posts runes and a photo with
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Speaker 3: the letter F painted on a tree.
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Speaker 2: Before I can even formulate my next question to Susan Hendricks,
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Speaker 2: a investigated journalist and author, I need to get some facts.
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Speaker 2: Doctor Mark Mirabello is joining us, who has now shot
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Speaker 2: to fame because of the book The odin Brotherhood that
17:24
Speaker 2: he wrote before any of us had even heard of Odinism.
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Speaker 2: G How did we miss that Odinism? He had already
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Speaker 2: written a book, doctor Mark Mirabello. So great to have
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Speaker 2: you with us. Now the defense is claiming that Odinist
17:42
Speaker 2: actually murdered Libby and Abby, and they're pointing toward what
17:47
Speaker 2: they claim are runs, which I believe are rocks, but
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Speaker 2: I'm not really sure, lying on the body or around
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Speaker 2: the body?
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Speaker 1: What are runs?
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Speaker 2: What do they have to do with the pagan religion
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Speaker 2: of Aganism?
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Speaker 9: By the way, several points. First, I'm now Professor emeritus,
18:09
Speaker 9: which is retired in a great honor. Now we get
18:12
Speaker 9: answering your question. The Vikings used the rooms, and oddly
18:18
Speaker 9: enough they seem to resemble a trust in writing style
18:21
Speaker 9: from northern Italy. We're not certain of the origin, but
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Speaker 9: the ruins were designed to be carved into wood, bone
18:28
Speaker 9: and stone. Now, because the Vikings were overwhelmingly illiterate, like
18:33
Speaker 9: a lot of the literate people, they thought writing was magical.
18:38
Speaker 9: And by the way, I should mention very clearly, writing
18:40
Speaker 9: is magical. With writing and communicate with the future, you
18:45
Speaker 9: can read the thoughts of the past. So it really
18:48
Speaker 9: is magical. And in fact, in many cultures, like in
18:51
Speaker 9: ancient Egypt, writing something can cause magical acts to occur.
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Speaker 2: Doctor, they claim that writing is magical to pretend I
19:00
Speaker 2: didn't we hear that.
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Speaker 1: Okay, oh it is.
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Speaker 6: Who killed?
19:05
Speaker 1: Go ahead the rings.
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Speaker 9: Okay, Now, remember I'm a specialist and occultism and also matriical.
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Speaker 6: Lord.
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Speaker 9: So but let's get back to the ruins and quickly,
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Speaker 9: let me just specify that this is not a human sacrifice.
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Speaker 9: I mean, anyone who knows anything about the history of
19:25
Speaker 9: religion understands this is not a human sacrifice. The whole
19:30
Speaker 9: point of human sacrifice, and I remember it was on
19:32
Speaker 9: your show last time I made this point I won't
19:35
Speaker 9: repeat myself, is a ritualized killing. It's a what's called
19:40
Speaker 9: a comedy of innocence where you pretend you're not really
19:42
Speaker 9: killing someone a simple murder. You're killing someone, you're cutting
19:47
Speaker 9: the throat whatever, shooting them. A ritual sacrifice is essentially
19:52
Speaker 9: you're pretending you're not. And the whole purpose of ritual
19:56
Speaker 9: sacrifice is to either earn the favor of the gods,
20:00
Speaker 9: give gratitude a tone for some kind of a fence.
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Speaker 9: For example, ancient Greeks when they killed someone would dip
20:08
Speaker 9: their hands, even soldiers, in a pig's blood that they
20:12
Speaker 9: had sacrificed to purify them. They couldn't go back in
20:15
Speaker 9: the temples. So again the sacrifice of purpose, and the
20:20
Speaker 9: important part is the ritual. You don't do this in
20:24
Speaker 9: the middle of nowhere and start spreading sticks on the
20:27
Speaker 9: bodies or putting an f on a tree. You would
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Speaker 9: if this were really a sacrifice. The felon would bring
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Speaker 9: the little girls to a location and he would act
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Speaker 9: out a ritual, kind of like the way if you've
20:42
Speaker 9: ever seen the Dexter show, the serial killer, how he
20:45
Speaker 9: acts out a ritual when he kills the serial killers.
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Speaker 1: Right, see see what you just said. I hope the
20:51
Speaker 1: state is listening. Who doesn't know about Dexter. By the way,
20:54
Speaker 1: there's a reboot just so you know. Let me take
20:57
Speaker 1: this in just.
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Speaker 2: For a moment, because formulating an opening statement and a
21:02
Speaker 2: closing statement and in this case, the state will have
21:06
Speaker 2: the final closing statement, which is very, very.
21:08
Speaker 1: If critical for the state.
21:10
Speaker 2: It will be the last words the jury hears before
21:13
Speaker 2: jury instructions, before they go deliberate. And this is critical
21:17
Speaker 2: because see I'm hanging on you every word. This could
21:22
Speaker 2: mean justice or injustice for the families of Abby and Libby.
21:27
Speaker 2: And I'm telling you right now, doctor Mirabello, that this
21:31
Speaker 2: is the direction in which.
21:33
Speaker 1: The defense is going. Why because they've already put it
21:36
Speaker 1: out there. They're kind of stuck with it. Now.
21:38
Speaker 2: Now hold on, when you compared it to Dexter, Now
21:42
Speaker 2: see that's something a jury and myself we can understand.
21:47
Speaker 2: I'm going to circle back to you, Joe Scott Morgan
21:49
Speaker 2: on all the Latin mumbo jumbo you throw out there,
21:53
Speaker 2: and you expect all of us to understand it. We're
21:55
Speaker 2: not medical doctrines, show Scott, we're not death investigators. But
21:59
Speaker 2: what he just said, what he just said, if you
22:03
Speaker 2: tell a jury and you compare to like Dexter, someone
22:08
Speaker 2: that most people can relate to have seen it, and
22:11
Speaker 2: remember how he just got lays out plastic, surrounds himself
22:17
Speaker 2: with plastic, and only uses certain tools and has a
22:21
Speaker 2: ritual where he puts the victim's pictures up all around
22:24
Speaker 2: the defendant, and the defendant wakes up and sees what
22:28
Speaker 2: he has done before Dexter kills him. That's a ritual
22:31
Speaker 2: and that's something Givars can latch onto.
22:34
Speaker 1: To further Mirabello's assertion that this was no ritual.
22:40
Speaker 2: He basically molested and murdered two little girls in the woods.
22:44
Speaker 1: That's what happened. Get it.
22:46
Speaker 8: Yeah, let me tell you something. I'm old enough to
22:48
Speaker 8: remember when every damn case out there was referred to
22:51
Speaker 8: as a ritualistic killing. When I started working back in
22:54
Speaker 8: the eighties, everything was pushed off on ritualism. There was
22:59
Speaker 8: a safe and this around every corner. Need need I
23:03
Speaker 8: remind people of the McMartin case preschool case out in California.
23:07
Speaker 8: That was one of the biggest frauds that was ever
23:10
Speaker 8: foisted on the American public. And I think we're going
23:14
Speaker 8: down that road here, Nancy. You know, when you think
23:18
Speaker 8: about it, if you're talking about an individual that is
23:22
Speaker 8: out in the woods, there's going to be a very
23:24
Speaker 8: specific area. If this is a ritualized event, there will
23:28
Speaker 8: be an area where they do this all the time.
23:31
Speaker 8: In this in this little area. It's ridiculous.
23:35
Speaker 2: We have a symbol today, the best and the brightest,
23:39
Speaker 2: to take apart what we're learning from Susan Hendrick's investigative
23:42
Speaker 2: journalist and author of an incredible book, Down the Hill,
23:46
Speaker 2: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Okay, wait, wait,
23:51
Speaker 2: I want to go back to Mirabello. Doctor Mark Mirabello literally.
23:54
Speaker 1: Wrote the book on the Odin brotherhood.
23:57
Speaker 2: As fantastical as this defensive theory may sound, they're actually attaching.
24:03
Speaker 1: It to real people.
24:05
Speaker 2: Of just one gr Ard gets sucked in the state
24:08
Speaker 2: is screwed technical legal term.
24:11
Speaker 1: Listen.
24:11
Speaker 10: The defense team refers back to Trooper Kevin Murphy's investigation,
24:15
Speaker 10: during which he learned that Rushville odinist Elvis Fields allegedly
24:19
Speaker 10: described the crime scene in detail to his sister. Murphy
24:23
Speaker 10: writes that when questioned about that admission, Fields denies any
24:26
Speaker 10: involvement in the murders, but strangely asks if he will
24:30
Speaker 10: be in trouble if his spit is found on the
24:32
Speaker 10: girl's bodies. Fields also has ties to Brad Holder, frequently
24:36
Speaker 10: reposting or copying Holder's Facebook posts.
24:40
Speaker 1: Oh Dear Lord in Heaven as a prosecutor. That's what
24:43
Speaker 1: I don't want to hear, okay.
24:46
Speaker 2: But you have to hear it, and you've got to
24:48
Speaker 2: confront it in your opening statement. Susan Hendrix helped me.
24:52
Speaker 2: The defense is going to claim, under the odness theory
24:57
Speaker 2: that a Rushville oldness l this feels described the crime
25:03
Speaker 2: scene in detail to his sister.
25:07
Speaker 1: Now I can't.
25:08
Speaker 2: I can explain that enough details had leaked out in
25:11
Speaker 2: the local area and sometimes in the press that he
25:14
Speaker 2: could latch onto those details and then regurgitate him. You
25:18
Speaker 2: regurgitate them to his sister, but I'm not sure what
25:23
Speaker 2: about him asking well, I be in trouble if my
25:25
Speaker 2: spit is on the girls?
25:27
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, where?
25:28
Speaker 4: And the investigator Nancy Kevin Murphy, he was on the
25:31
Speaker 4: stand and by the way, he broke down in tears
25:34
Speaker 4: when seeing the crime scene photos that were handed to him,
25:37
Speaker 4: breaking down in tears and saying yes. I interviewed Elvis Fields.
25:40
Speaker 4: I pulled him up to his house. He came to
25:42
Speaker 4: my adoor and asked that question, and the former Indiana
25:46
Speaker 4: State Police officer now retired, said, I made a mistake.
25:48
Speaker 4: I should have had lunch with him or talked more
25:51
Speaker 4: about what he was talking about. But here's what stands
25:53
Speaker 4: out to me. They all have alibis the cross examination of.
25:58
Speaker 2: The mast q in heaven, I don't care if he
26:02
Speaker 2: asked about a spit in his fingerprints. He has an alibi.
26:06
Speaker 2: That's all I need to hear. Are you sure this
26:07
Speaker 2: guy who is an oldinist? Where do these people come from?
26:12
Speaker 1: An oldist?
26:12
Speaker 2: Elvis Feels asks, hey, well, I'll be in trouble if
26:16
Speaker 2: my spits on the dead girl's body.
26:18
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, Are you telling me he has an alibi?
26:22
Speaker 6: Yes?
26:23
Speaker 4: No, yes, And Brad Holder absolutely does. His ex wife
26:26
Speaker 4: was on the stand saying, look, he did mention the
26:29
Speaker 4: girls and mentioned that killing and the murders. But the
26:32
Speaker 4: cross examination was huge. Nancy, drink you from the higher.
26:35
Speaker 1: Fire hydrant, Susan Hendricks too much.
26:37
Speaker 4: Chief asked, we hadn't come down.
26:40
Speaker 1: You do?
26:41
Speaker 2: You do, and you're incredible, but you've got to spoon
26:44
Speaker 2: feed it to me. Okay, I've got to destroy if
26:47
Speaker 2: I'm prosecuting the case, destroy every one of these theories
26:51
Speaker 2: one by one. It's okay, this guy an oldist, go figure.
26:56
Speaker 2: Elvis Feels, who says, well, why be in trouble if
26:59
Speaker 2: my salon I my spit. His words, not mine, are
27:03
Speaker 2: on the dead girls' bodies. Okay, that would give calls
27:06
Speaker 2: for suspicion. He has an alibi, But what about the
27:10
Speaker 2: guy you just mentioned, brad Holder?
27:13
Speaker 1: Listen?
27:13
Speaker 3: The defense also reveals that brad Holder drunkenly tells his
27:17
Speaker 3: ex wife that he had a falling out with his
27:19
Speaker 3: friend Patrick Westfall over an odinist ritual gone bad. In
27:23
Speaker 3: February twenty seventeen. When Amber Holder presses her ex further,
27:28
Speaker 3: Holder tells her that Westfall admitted to Abby and Libby's
27:31
Speaker 3: murders and that she needs to keep quiet about.
27:34
Speaker 1: It or they will kill her too. Oh.
27:37
Speaker 2: Chris McDonough joining me, director Cold Case Foundation. I found
27:40
Speaker 2: him on the interview room on YouTube during the Coburger
27:45
Speaker 2: the initial phases of the investigation.
27:47
Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, what do we do with idiots who make.
27:52
Speaker 2: False confessions, drunk confessions to their wives, crazy confessions to
27:57
Speaker 2: their sisters when there are elebis proving it's not them.
28:03
Speaker 6: Well, the first thing you do is you slow down,
28:05
Speaker 6: and whenever Elvis centers the building, you stop and you think, logically,
28:11
Speaker 6: number one, you have the suspect on the bridge on video,
28:18
Speaker 6: and if this is a you know, if we're going
28:19
Speaker 6: to the Viking Share, then you know they they really
28:24
Speaker 6: worked really hard to make the universe on schedule that day.
28:28
Speaker 6: Because you have this suspect on top of the bridge,
28:31
Speaker 6: and there's supposed to be this whole little coven underneath
28:35
Speaker 6: the bridge, you know, having this ritual of some sort,
28:38
Speaker 6: and then these two poor little victims who are out
28:41
Speaker 6: on a walk end up showing up. This is the
28:46
Speaker 6: This case has all the indications of a highly sexually
28:50
Speaker 6: fantasized playout fantasy playing its olpen Chris.
28:55
Speaker 2: McDonough, do you ever have to leave our program and
28:59
Speaker 2: then just go take hot shower and scrub yourself?
29:02
Speaker 1: Did you hear what you just said?
29:03
Speaker 2: I mean, you just said that murdering these two little
29:08
Speaker 2: girls was part of I believe you said, a highly
29:11
Speaker 2: sexualized fantasy, killing two little girls, swapping parts in their clothes,
29:18
Speaker 2: leaving them naked out in the woods, their bodies potentially
29:24
Speaker 2: being torn apart by animals, while the parents and the
29:28
Speaker 2: grandparents are just like vomiting out of fear and pain
29:34
Speaker 2: looking for their little children. I mean, that's his sex fantasy,
29:39
Speaker 2: you know what. Yeah, it's almost more than I can
29:42
Speaker 2: take in.
29:43
Speaker 6: You know, and Nancy, not only that, think about the
29:45
Speaker 6: horror that the children are going through.
29:48
Speaker 9: I e.
29:48
Speaker 6: There's a gun involved. Okay, he's stripping each of these children,
29:53
Speaker 6: and why is she doing this? Is he holding one
29:56
Speaker 6: of them at gunpoint and while the other one is
30:00
Speaker 6: putting the other child's clothing on? Does he then kill
30:04
Speaker 6: that victim in front of the other victim who ends
30:08
Speaker 6: up potentially running. There's evidence that one of the children
30:12
Speaker 6: were running at that point. This guy is playing out
30:15
Speaker 6: his fantasy and it's not going the way he wanted
30:19
Speaker 6: it to. And the brutality of this is shown the
30:23
Speaker 6: fact that a knife was now used and these four
30:26
Speaker 6: children had to suffer through that pain, and that suffering
30:30
Speaker 6: in of itself.
30:37
Speaker 3: Two other Rushville odinists with ties to brad Holder, Elvis
30:41
Speaker 3: Fields and Patrick Westfall, are also named as potentially missed
30:45
Speaker 3: suspects by the defense, although the men live nearly one
30:49
Speaker 3: hundred and thirty miles away. One of their girlfriends told
30:51
Speaker 3: investigators that she loaned her car to her boyfriend around
30:55
Speaker 3: Valentine's Day twenty seventeen so he could visit Odinis friends Delphi.
31:01
Speaker 3: Her boyfriend returned the car to her with dried blood
31:03
Speaker 3: down one side, and she says he refused to explain
31:07
Speaker 3: where the blood came from.
31:08
Speaker 2: What is she a crime scene tech? Does she test
31:11
Speaker 2: the substance that was on the side of the car
31:14
Speaker 2: and know it to be blood and human blood?
31:17
Speaker 1: Really? So wait, is this guy?
31:19
Speaker 2: Is this another specter part of the sod some of
31:22
Speaker 2: the dude did it defense? The defense in this case
31:25
Speaker 2: is going to parade in front of the jury. A girl,
31:28
Speaker 2: an ex girlfriend, she can you imagine why? Says her
31:31
Speaker 2: boyfriend drives to Delphi, say he can visit his odinist
31:36
Speaker 2: friends and comes back with blood on the side of
31:38
Speaker 2: the car. And when explain it that that is not
31:42
Speaker 2: a sufficient sufficient evidence to claim that boyfriend was responsible.
31:47
Speaker 2: In one word, Susan Hendrix, it's going to be hard
31:51
Speaker 2: because you have so much knowledge now after sitting through
31:54
Speaker 2: all of these days and days and days of hearings.
31:57
Speaker 2: Can these guys be alibi by the state?
32:02
Speaker 1: Yes?
32:03
Speaker 4: No, yes, And they can't be tied to at the
32:06
Speaker 4: cross examination. I know it's one word, but they could
32:09
Speaker 4: not be tied to the crime scene at all, any
32:12
Speaker 4: of them, even though they were investigated, which it was
32:15
Speaker 4: six plus years till anyone was arrested, so you understand
32:17
Speaker 4: the investigation. But then were they tied to the crime scene?
32:20
Speaker 4: And the answer time and time again on the stand, No, no, no.
32:24
Speaker 1: Do they have alibis?
32:25
Speaker 2: Were they punched in at work where there's a receipt
32:28
Speaker 2: placing them at Walmart?
32:29
Speaker 4: A brad Holder was punched in, Yes, punched in at
32:32
Speaker 4: work and punched in at the gym Bradholder.
32:34
Speaker 1: Yet what about the others.
32:36
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if Elvis Fields has an alibi, the
32:39
Speaker 4: one who turned around and said if my spit was
32:41
Speaker 4: at the scene. But nothing, nothing connects him, no evidence
32:46
Speaker 4: to the crime scene.
32:48
Speaker 2: I guarantee you right now the state is scrambling to
32:50
Speaker 2: get an alibi for all of these guys. But as
32:54
Speaker 2: Susan Hendrix just explained, you have to be physically tied
32:58
Speaker 2: to the same as we believe this guy, Richard Allen,
33:05
Speaker 2: is tied to the scene. But I want to go
33:09
Speaker 2: back to doctor Mark Mirabello, Professor emeritus of History, Shawnee
33:16
Speaker 2: State University, author of The Odin Brotherhood.
33:19
Speaker 1: You just explained how.
33:21
Speaker 2: Unlike Dexter, there is no ritual at all regarding the
33:25
Speaker 2: murders of these two little girls, Abby and Libby what
33:29
Speaker 2: else strikes you as proof this was not some sort
33:33
Speaker 2: of a ritualistic killer.
33:35
Speaker 1: Ritualistic killer, yes, go ahead.
33:36
Speaker 9: Well we off the top one point as curious as
33:38
Speaker 9: Elvis means, I see God. Now, incidentally, for your audience,
33:42
Speaker 9: most of which are probably Christians. Not all Norse Pagans
33:46
Speaker 9: are called Odinans. They tend to be called asa. True,
33:49
Speaker 9: the more conservative are the oldness. Now I've studied these
33:54
Speaker 9: groups for since the nineteen eighties. I have never seen
33:57
Speaker 9: evity evidence of human sacrifice or even animal sacrifice. Now
34:02
Speaker 9: earlier people's would sacrifice. Ancient Romans did, ancient Greeks did,
34:07
Speaker 9: and so forth. Incidentally, Paul in his writings refers to
34:13
Speaker 9: pete Christians eating meat offered to devils. He's referring to
34:18
Speaker 9: is you could not slaughter an animal in ancient Greece
34:21
Speaker 9: or Rome. It was always ritually killed. And again back
34:26
Speaker 9: to the point they.
34:27
Speaker 2: Called the moderns, doctor Mirabello gave her forest trees? What
34:35
Speaker 2: about this saying tells you it's not a ritualistic killing.
34:38
Speaker 9: As I said before, And it's really clear they would
34:41
Speaker 9: not do something in such a haphazard way. I want
34:45
Speaker 9: to make it very clear that and this is important.
34:48
Speaker 9: It sounds like I'm in the weeds, but it's not.
34:50
Speaker 9: Earlier peoples all practiced various forms of sacrifice, and if
34:55
Speaker 9: it had been one offered to Odin, they would be
34:59
Speaker 9: what's called sky sacrifice with a piercing. And that's based
35:04
Speaker 9: on the Old Norse old Norse story that Odin sacrificed
35:10
Speaker 9: himself to himself. And by the way, we find bodies
35:14
Speaker 9: from the Middle Ages where they're sacrifice this way, and
35:16
Speaker 9: what the sky sacrifice reverse do. He hanged himself on
35:22
Speaker 9: the world's tree, that's the tree that holds up the
35:25
Speaker 9: nine worlds, which is the universe, and then pierced himself
35:29
Speaker 9: with a spear as an offering of himself to himself. Now,
35:34
Speaker 9: nineteenth century scholars thought this was a curious story.
35:37
Speaker 2: Stop TMI, too much information. Now, well, I personally am
35:43
Speaker 2: fascinated by everything you're saying. And that's not tongue in cheeke,
35:47
Speaker 2: I actually mean it.
35:49
Speaker 1: I can't put all this in front of a jury.
35:52
Speaker 1: That's just like you're in encyclopedia.
35:54
Speaker 2: You're walking encyclopedia as it relates to the Odin brotherhood.
35:59
Speaker 1: But to think and practicalities.
36:02
Speaker 2: Have to say to a jury, this is not a
36:04
Speaker 2: ritualistic killing because X y Z, and then I need
36:08
Speaker 2: to put you on the stand and very simply explain why.
36:11
Speaker 1: Here's a good start. Listen.
36:14
Speaker 7: On cross examination, prosecutor Nicholas mclealand points out that Pearl
36:18
Speaker 7: Mutter also had quote no doubt the murders were ritualistic,
36:22
Speaker 7: in a TV appearance months before reviewing any evidence. Mcleland
36:26
Speaker 7: also claims Alan admitted he only used the sticks on
36:29
Speaker 7: the bodies to cover them. A blood pattern expert testifies
36:32
Speaker 7: the apparent letter F is likely just a smear from
36:36
Speaker 7: blood on Abby's hand, and mcleland gets Pearl Mutter to
36:39
Speaker 7: admit there's no physical evidence tying any of the named
36:42
Speaker 7: odinists to the crime scene.
36:44
Speaker 2: Okay, Susan Hendricks, let me understand what I just heard
36:47
Speaker 2: from Crime onlines. Dave Mack, the expert that's going to
36:52
Speaker 2: come on at trial, committed to a ritualistic odistic killing
36:58
Speaker 2: before he ever saw well any evidence.
37:02
Speaker 1: Is that correct? It is?
37:03
Speaker 4: And she was on the stand for some time talking
37:06
Speaker 4: about why she thought it was this way. So Nick
37:08
Speaker 4: McCleland said, well, what if I told you she mentioned
37:11
Speaker 4: a knife being part of that ritual he said, what
37:13
Speaker 4: if I told you during the confessions he said it
37:15
Speaker 4: was a box cutter, she would that changed her mind now.
37:18
Speaker 5: Well.
37:18
Speaker 2: Also, the blood pattern expert explains the letter F is
37:23
Speaker 2: likely a blood smear from Abby's hand, and the so
37:28
Speaker 2: called expert has to admit no physical evidence ties.
37:31
Speaker 1: Any of these oldness to the.
37:33
Speaker 2: Crime scene, and then we have to deal with all
37:36
Speaker 2: the confessions.
37:39
Speaker 1: Guys, take a listen to this.
37:41
Speaker 3: On the witness stand, Doctor Monica Walla and Indiana Department
37:45
Speaker 3: of Corrections psychologists treating Richard Allen, claims that she noticed
37:49
Speaker 3: the accused killer smiraling just before the confessions began. Wala
37:53
Speaker 3: describes Alan banging his head against the wall, eating his
37:56
Speaker 3: own feces, and frequently speaking of suicide. Testifies that staff
38:01
Speaker 3: is providing Allan antipsychotic medications at least once a month.
38:06
Speaker 1: Well.
38:06
Speaker 10: Special Judge Fran Gull has yet to rule on the
38:08
Speaker 10: amissibility of Richard Allen's many confessions testimony. Did swear r
38:12
Speaker 10: to vacate a safe keeping order and remove Allan from
38:15
Speaker 10: the Westville Correctional Facility. Allan will instead be held at
38:19
Speaker 10: the Cass County Jail.
38:20
Speaker 2: BOO, who did anybody ever think Richard Schoenstein, veteran trial lawyer,
38:26
Speaker 2: that he's spiraling because he got caught for.
38:29
Speaker 1: The double murders of two little children.
38:32
Speaker 11: Sure, that's a possibility, But you know, Nancy, the guy's
38:35
Speaker 11: got it due process right, So I mean we get
38:37
Speaker 11: to have a trial, he gets to put on a
38:39
Speaker 11: defense if he wants to argue Odins did it, and
38:43
Speaker 11: he has some.
38:43
Speaker 5: Evidence in that regard, I think he gets to put
38:46
Speaker 5: it on.
38:47
Speaker 2: Well, of course he does, and in fact, Rich Shoenstein,
38:49
Speaker 2: I would be angry.
38:50
Speaker 1: I'd be mad if he didn't.
38:51
Speaker 2: I hope he tries to blame the worshippers of the
38:54
Speaker 2: Norse gods.
38:54
Speaker 1: But what I'm telling you is the defense is climbing.
38:57
Speaker 2: Oh, he's out of his mind when he gave all
38:59
Speaker 2: these six Steve plus confessions to inmates, two guards.
39:03
Speaker 1: To his wife on the phone, that he didn't know
39:06
Speaker 1: what he was saying.
39:07
Speaker 2: I would submit rich schoen Stein that he started spiraling
39:11
Speaker 2: out of control because he realized it's over.
39:15
Speaker 1: They caught me. I'm in jail. I've been busted on
39:18
Speaker 1: two murders. I killed two little girls. That is one
39:22
Speaker 1: possible explanation, but another possible.
39:24
Speaker 5: Explanation is that he's been in prisoned for something he
39:27
Speaker 5: didn't do and it's making him crazy. And it's up
39:30
Speaker 5: for a jury to decide which of those explanations is correct.
39:34
Speaker 2: Okay, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
39:38
Speaker 2: That's not going to work show and Stein maybe.
39:41
Speaker 1: In front of a jury, but not here. You're in Nancyland. Now.
39:44
Speaker 1: You can't claim.
39:46
Speaker 2: He's so upset because he's wrongly confused, and that he
39:50
Speaker 2: can fess over sixty times.
39:52
Speaker 6: Why not? Why are those two things inconsistent? Why is
39:55
Speaker 6: it inconsistent?
39:56
Speaker 2: Because if he's unjustly accused, then why would he confess?
39:59
Speaker 6: I don't. I mean, listen, it's not what I would do.
40:02
Speaker 5: But the fury is he's been driven to it by
40:07
Speaker 5: being put in solitary confinement, by being pulled away from
40:10
Speaker 5: his family. Look, I don't think the jury is going
40:12
Speaker 5: to buy it either.
40:13
Speaker 2: Hey, you know what Showen's saying. You know who has
40:15
Speaker 2: pulled away from their family? Abby and Libby totally agree.
40:20
Speaker 1: Guys.
40:21
Speaker 2: We wait, as the evidence unfolds in a court of law,
40:24
Speaker 2: how much of this will the jury ever hear?
40:27
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,