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Project controls: data, leadership and communication · Project Podcast

0:08
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for
0:12
the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
0:15
the editor of Project APM's Cause V Journal and your host.
0:19
In this podcast we're going to find out all about project
0:22
controls. I'm asking Paul Kidston and
0:25
Carolyn Browning everything there is to know about this
0:28
essential part of project management and who better to
0:31
ask? Paul, an engineer, is a former
0:33
director of Project Controls working on projects such as the
0:36
Remodels, Smithfield's meat market in London.
0:39
Carolyn is the Transformation programme manager at online
0:42
business Flutter Entertainment. Both are co-authors, along with
0:46
others of the new APM book Project Controls in the 21st
0:49
Century, available through the APM website.
0:53
Listen on to find out how a project controller should
0:55
actually be called the Truth Tellers, and how you need to
0:58
have both an eye for the technical details of a project,
1:02
but also be able to step back and join the strategic dots.
1:05
But what really, really matters is the ability to be adept at
1:08
the people side of things like communicating well, problem
1:11
solving, and being a leader who creates the best kind of project
1:15
culture. They give valuable lessons for
1:18
all. So let's dive straight in.
1:24
Welcome both of you to the APM Podcast.
1:26
Thank you so much for sparing the time to talk to us today.
1:29
Why don't we start at the beginning?
1:30
Let's get back to the fundamentals and ask what is
1:33
project controls and how does it differ from project management?
1:37
It depends. People have such different views
1:40
about what project management is and and then it is genuinely
1:43
different in different organisations.
1:46
So it'll depend where you are. Some, some will see the skill
1:50
sets as being separate, but I think our philosophy is, is
1:55
around the fact that they're really the same thing.
1:57
I mean, I, I, I think they're the same thing.
2:00
Many of the skill sets that are required for project controls
2:04
are the same as project management.
2:05
And that's not to say they're uniform.
2:07
There are things that come outside of each discipline.
2:10
If there's a way of characterising it, I'd say that
2:12
project controls tend to be more tactical.
2:15
It tends to be about what, what should be happening in the
2:17
future, what has happened, what trends, what performance, you
2:21
know, that kind of thing. And about making suggestions
2:24
that project managers then have to go and do something about.
2:29
I mean, if you, if you drew a Venn diagram of project
2:31
management and project controls, my view is that they'd be very
2:35
largely overlapping. It there'd be, you know, very
2:38
much the the overlap and and and little bits around the outside
2:41
where the the nuanced skills lay.
2:45
What would lie on the outside of those circles?
2:49
Very little. I think the only thing would be
2:50
particular technical skills, you know, how a tool set in
2:54
particular works would be something that an expert project
2:57
controller would know and would manage.
2:59
But in terms of what goes into that tool, you know, and, and
3:02
this could be, I don't know, a piece of software that dealt
3:04
with risk or planning or estimating, whatever it would be
3:08
in terms of the, the, the important information that goes
3:10
in and the information that comes out, It's very much of
3:13
interest to to all parties. So I suppose it's that technical
3:18
skill rather than anything that you could say is a finite
3:21
discipline. One example perhaps is something
3:23
that you might consider sits in project management and not in
3:26
project controls might be the management of health and safety.
3:29
But I would argue that's not the case because one thing, that's
3:32
the moral responsibility that everybody would have to be
3:37
concerned about health and safety.
3:40
Secondly, there's things around how you plan things so that work
3:43
is enacted in a Safeway. So there's there's, there's
3:46
really nothing. And this is what I would try to,
3:48
to encourage any project control to think about.
3:50
There's nothing that's not of interest to you in a project.
3:53
You have to be interested in anything because you have to
3:55
understand the whole context. OK, Karen, is there anything
4:00
you'd like to add to that? Yeah.
4:02
So just kind of building from what Paul said, the way that I
4:04
kind of see the difference between project controls and
4:07
project management is, yes, the skills are common, but it's how
4:10
they are then applied. So for example, project
4:14
management is very strategic and more directional, whereas the I
4:20
always describe kind of project controls as the data engine of
4:23
the project. It's where you get all the
4:26
information. And especially in times where
4:29
we've got evolving and exponentially increasing kind of
4:32
data sources and data sets, really it's the project controls
4:37
professionals within the project that really focus in on how to
4:41
get the best use of that data and help and aid the project in
4:46
terms of like making those right decisions.
4:49
So it very much is how the how the skill sets are kind of used,
4:53
but they're very much overlapped from my perspective.
4:56
You've obviously both been very successful within Project
4:59
controls. Could you give our listeners an
5:01
idea of your kind of career trajectory and what have been
5:05
the biggest lessons you've learned around project controls?
5:10
When I first answered this question it was the first half
5:12
of my career was in engineering and project management roles.
5:15
I suspect now I've reached the other end of my career.
5:18
It was only the first third, but I was a a engineer and a manager
5:24
of of sections of work, eventually becoming a project
5:26
manager. The actual reason I moved into
5:28
project control was to get on the get on to an interesting
5:31
project, a particular particular project that I was interested in
5:34
at the time. It was the refurbishment of
5:38
Smithfield Meat Market or the the second part of actually very
5:41
interesting project and one of those teams that are one of the
5:44
best teams I ever worked with. Funny enough, it wasn't, it
5:46
wasn't a big project in in terms of major infrastructure projects
5:50
in this country, etcetera. But it but it was a great
5:53
project to be on because the team gelled in a very
5:56
interesting way. And we might, we might touch on
5:58
teamwork later on, but we were a team that became greater than
6:02
the sum of our parts because I suppose, you know, we had
6:06
individual weaknesses. One of my weaknesses at the time
6:08
was not knowing what project controls were and planning were.
6:11
But to have that particular responsibility was a bit of a
6:14
challenge. But I think out of that came a
6:16
lot of learning. One was there is a way into
6:18
project controls from project management, particularly in my
6:22
industry, I think because of the high regard that having the
6:25
technical knowledge, the engineering knowledge most
6:28
important. And that's not necessarily true
6:30
in other industries, but it very much is in the construction
6:32
industry. I, I suppose the second thing
6:34
that I would say is it wasn't long before I was being called
6:37
an expert or even even a guru. And I used to really shy away
6:41
from these terms because all I've done is, you know, I mean,
6:43
at the time there was a little bit of information on the
6:46
Internet and there was a, a couple of pages in a book about
6:49
some of this kind of stuff. It was hard to get hold of
6:52
information. And so by reading 2 pages in a
6:54
textbook and two web pages or whatever it was, suddenly you're
6:57
a guru. And it's ridiculous.
6:59
And I, but I think the point is, if you, for people interested in
7:02
project controls, if you're really, I mean, don't get me
7:05
wrong, you can go into project controls, you can go back into
7:07
project management. You can use project controls as
7:10
a route into project management. You can use it as a route into
7:13
other areas in the business because you learn.
7:15
So you get so many sort of key skills in, in the field of
7:18
project controls. They, they, they are useful
7:21
elsewhere. But if you wanted to be that
7:23
expert project controller, then the key is to be interested, to
7:26
explore things and and be critical as well.
7:29
Mind you, you don't have to believe that all the, you know,
7:32
shiny new toys that people want to sell you are, are worthwhile
7:36
or are right for your situation. Might be a, a better way of
7:39
putting that. But it's, it's to be interested
7:41
and it's to have that I, I don't like the word their passion very
7:45
much because it seems that everybody is passionate about
7:46
everything. But it is having that passion
7:49
for, for the subject matter. And I think you can go a long
7:51
way with that, particularly in a subject that some, some people
7:53
for some reason that I can't fathom, think is a bit of a dry
7:57
subject. But there we go.
7:59
Carolyn, how what's been your career trajectory and what would
8:03
you say of the biggest lesson or lessons that you've picked up
8:06
around project controls? My approach was completely
8:10
different and so my career pathway has been completely
8:13
different to Paul's, which I think is testament to how broad
8:19
kind of project controls can be. I fell into it after university.
8:23
I didn't know what I wanted to do as a job and didn't really
8:27
understand what project controls was.
8:30
I didn't even realise that it existed.
8:32
And I joined a fence company in their project management
8:36
graduate scheme. And at that time I only knew
8:40
about project management. And essentially as you do on
8:43
kind of graduate schemes, you rotate around the various
8:46
different areas. And I met a really, really
8:50
inspirational project controls professional at that time and he
8:56
kind of opened my eyes into this kind of world that I found
9:00
really fascinating in terms of understanding loads of complex
9:05
things and making it simple for people to understand and like
9:10
problem solving. And that bit was really, really
9:14
interesting to me. And throughout my career, I've
9:17
kind of drifted in and out of industries.
9:19
I've worked in defence, I've worked in rail, I've worked in
9:22
infrastructure, I've worked in in all sorts of different types
9:26
of projects and programmes. I've done transformational
9:30
change. But ultimately the bit that I
9:32
keep always coming back to, which is central for me for
9:36
project controls professionals, is that, that passion for
9:41
problem solving and that ability to kind of really understand
9:45
quite a lot of detailed and complex data, but then work with
9:49
people similar to Paul, that teamwork and that, that working
9:53
with people and communicating and collaborating with loads of
9:57
different people to get a good result in the end.
10:01
And it it, it's very similar to project management, but I
10:04
enjoyed the data analysis side of it very much so And that was
10:09
much more suited in the project controls kind of domain that
10:13
equally. Yeah, it kind of goes hand in
10:15
hand. It sounds so you you need to
10:18
have the broader perspective, but also be able to drill down
10:21
into the technical detail for project controls.
10:23
That's that's a really interesting mix because normally
10:25
people focus on one or the other.
10:27
But would you agree with that? Yeah, definitely.
10:30
I think I always kind of define it as you need to be able to
10:34
kind of switch between a helicopter vision to see what
10:39
the project manager is seeing in terms of the strategy, the
10:42
vision, the mission, the outcomes, the benefits that
10:44
you're trying to achieve. But then also be able to guide
10:47
the team in that really, really detailed kind of micro level
10:51
work. And it, it does take much more
10:54
work around learning the tools and the techniques.
10:57
But for me, the power in it is how it's communicated and how
11:02
you collaborate with others in order to be able to make that,
11:06
make that jump from lower level detail into kind of higher level
11:09
detail easy for people. Because it's not always easy to
11:13
understand, especially quick moving and quite complex
11:17
interconnected project, it's very difficult for people to
11:20
make that leap. So for me, a project, a good
11:22
project controls person can help people make that leap between
11:26
the detail and the high level and kind of go up and down the
11:29
different levels. Have you, have you had a
11:32
favourite project you've worked on?
11:34
And I'm going to ask you what events were did you first work
11:36
on that you were doing as a project controller?
11:39
So my first, my first ever project was working on a
11:44
training system for submarines. So it was kind of like a
11:50
training simulator. And that was absolutely
11:52
fascinating. It was one of the first projects
11:55
that I ever worked on that I kind of cut my teeth on, so to
11:59
speak, as like a role that was important.
12:02
I was assistant project manager on the Aircraft Carrier Alliance
12:05
and that always is spawned in my heart as like a programme that I
12:10
really, really enjoyed working on.
12:11
There was a really, really good collaborative kind of cross
12:14
cross alliancing team with loads of different people from loads
12:17
of different organisations. I was learning tonnes really,
12:22
really early in my career. Felt like I was completely out
12:25
of my depth and learning every day.
12:26
And that's probably one of the favourite, favourite projects
12:29
that I always look back fondly on.
12:31
Oh. That's pretty what I mean.
12:33
This lead to me to ask you. I mean, why does project
12:37
controls matter more now than ever?
12:40
I mean, you've already explained to me an idea of how you're able
12:43
to going to highly complex, sophisticated programmes and
12:47
projects and try and simplify it.
12:49
And I'd imagine part of that is to make sure that everyone's
12:52
working to a kind of common purpose and vision and
12:54
understand how everyone fits in. But I don't know who wants to go
12:58
first. Quite a big question, But you
12:59
know, why does project controls matter more now than ever?
13:03
Why do they matter now more now? I don't know.
13:05
If they do matter now more, I think they've always mattered.
13:08
I suppose the thing though, is it's about the future.
13:11
I mean, if we've if we've run projects not as well as we could
13:15
have done in the past, that's the past.
13:17
And we always need to get better at what we do.
13:19
So that's that, that that's that's why it matters now to
13:23
just improve, to continuously improve.
13:24
You know, we might, we might start from a position that we're
13:26
actually pretty good at, at this stuff doesn't matter.
13:29
We've got to be better tomorrow. And I think the economic
13:33
situation that, that we find ourselves in this country,
13:36
perhaps the even the world situation that we find ourselves
13:39
in means that there's limited resources, money's got to be
13:42
spent wisely. We've got to behave
13:45
professionally. And, and these are all things
13:48
that project controls helps you do.
13:50
I mean, you need the, you need the projects and changing times
13:54
that we live in require projects perhaps even more than ever.
13:57
And therefore you need good project controls.
13:59
The two things, as I said, are not dissimilar and, and, and you
14:02
need both to go hand in hand. And the pace of change, it's the
14:07
pace of change that means that projects have to be more
14:09
flexible and more agile. And there there is a technique
14:13
called agile, which I don't, I don't mean here, I mean just
14:15
genuinely agile. We have to be able to react to
14:18
change, to change things. And in traditional project
14:22
management, that's change can be a really big factor in project
14:26
failure. So we must be better at it.
14:28
We must be professional about how we deal with it.
14:31
We must be rigorous about how we deal with it and we must be
14:33
disciplined about how we deal with it.
14:35
So I, I think that's why you know, those elements of
14:38
controls. And as, as, as part of getting
14:41
that control, you need to set things up such that you are as
14:44
flexible as possible so that you can react to, to change in the
14:48
world in the environment as quickly as possible.
14:51
So you know, that's why it's you know it as important now stroke
14:56
even more important now than than than than in the past.
14:59
So actually the the greater the discipline and the focus and the
15:03
control, the you're actually giving a project the ability to
15:06
be more flexible, adaptable and and agile to what's going on.
15:11
Yes, I mean, that's exactly how things have to be designed.
15:14
It's very easy to set down rules that say that thou shalt not
15:17
change anything, for example. I mean, that'd be great if you
15:19
could do it and it would make life easier and it would make,
15:22
well, it maybe it'd make some people's jobs superfluous.
15:25
But it, it, it, it's, it's not the reality of where we are.
15:28
You know, we get a, as we've seen in recent weeks, even
15:32
recent days, the world we live in is can change on a, on a pin
15:36
in, in an instant. It's absolutely vital that we're
15:40
able to pivot and change and that we're able to make the
15:44
right decision about things as well.
15:46
And where I would say project controls helps with the right
15:50
decision is it's in several areas.
15:52
It's in what should we do to correct things that are going
15:54
wrong, etcetera, etcetera. It's actually also more
15:56
fundamental than that sometimes to say, should we carry on doing
15:59
the things that we're doing or do we need to, you know, go back
16:02
to the drawing board, as it were, and do something
16:04
different. So I, I think, I think just the
16:07
world situation being in such flux at the moment is, you know,
16:10
does make projects more important and makes how projects
16:13
control themselves much more important.
16:17
Carolyn, what do you think? So I think certainly everything
16:20
that Paul has said, but also I, I see that this is a level of
16:24
flexibility in the the ever changing landscape that we have.
16:28
I see project controls as providing solid frameworks.
16:32
There are more guardrails rather than mandates because you need
16:36
that level of flexibility, you need that level of agility.
16:39
And especially in what much more kind of media focused times
16:44
where there's a lot of social focus on what's the what a lot
16:48
of spend is been spent on and what the benefits, what social
16:51
benefits, what the outcomes are. There are often different ways
16:55
of measuring project success and project controls provides that
17:01
data and that insight and that ability to measure projects in
17:06
different ways. And ultimately it's that it's
17:09
that rich, that rich data provided in a flexible framework
17:14
that really the project controls profession can really help with,
17:18
especially in this landscape where we have more
17:21
interconnections, more complex kind of working landscapes and
17:26
systems. This is how ultimately the
17:29
project controls profession can help.
17:32
Does project controls touch on that area of those broader,
17:36
almost intangible benefits that are delivered about how people
17:40
feel about projects afterwards? Is does it cover that area?
17:44
Is it very much just about the data and specific ways of
17:48
measuring? Established ways of measuring
17:50
success? Well, certainly kind of my
17:54
perception on this is that good, good project control should be
17:57
right away through the life of any project or programme,
18:01
however large or complex. So right away from the kind of
18:05
business case when you're thinking around the the outcomes
18:08
and the benefits, ultimately project controls has a a role to
18:13
play in that initial kind of ideation going through into the
18:17
quantification of the benefits and then the tracking of those.
18:20
And it's very easy to always think that benefits equals found
18:25
notes or dollars or some tangible value.
18:29
And ultimately it's also those different as you say that that
18:33
different quantitative and qualitative measures of success
18:37
on a project and a programme. And certainly it's, it's always
18:43
easier to focus on the the kind of tangible bits, the bits that
18:47
you can grab hold of and touch and feel.
18:50
But certainly there is emerging kind of trends and practises
18:53
around those more qualitative measures and how that can be
18:58
cracked and monitored not just throughout the life of a project
19:02
and programme, but then take Crossroads for example, onwards
19:04
when it actually gets into kind of public use.
19:08
And I think that's where there a heavy crossover between the kind
19:13
of role of the projects team whilst that project is in in
19:16
flight and then what happens post that and how those benefits
19:19
then landed and realise. We're APM, the only chartered
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19:33
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Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting
19:44
apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed,
19:48
society benefits. Are there any high profile
19:54
projects that could have been more successful if better
19:57
project controls had been implemented?
20:00
Or can you think or have you covered in?
20:03
You know any successful case studies where project controls
20:07
is really fundamental to the success of that project?
20:10
If any examples either of you would like to give on either of
20:14
those two sides. I think specific examples are
20:18
really, really hard, but if you have a look at the NAO website
20:22
for example, there's lots and lots of published data around
20:25
kind of lessons learned and best practise and things like that.
20:28
So sorry NAO, the National Audit Office.
20:31
National Audit Office, yes. So if we go back to if we go
20:36
back to kind of what we were saying around successes, success
20:40
depends on the perception and the state who, who is the
20:44
stakeholder who that's perceiving whether the project
20:47
is successful or not. Is it the end user?
20:50
Is it the the person that's having to pay for it?
20:54
Is it like there's different gauges on what success looks
20:58
like? But ultimately I think that
21:02
broadly there is a, there is a direct correlation and perhaps
21:05
Paul, you can talk about some of your experiences in this, there
21:08
is a direct correlation between when there is good and effective
21:13
project controls with with success.
21:16
Paul, do you want to kind of go a bit further on that?
21:21
I I, I did an exercise for the company I was working.
21:23
I mean, I'm like Caroline. I'm going to be a bit coy about
21:26
mentioning natural projects or companies names for reasons I'm
21:29
not sure that the, the listeners will appreciate.
21:33
But I, I did an exercise comparing project controls
21:40
maturity. You know, we, we measured it as
21:42
part of an improvement programme.
21:43
So we had a whole series of good through to through to poor in
21:47
terms of adoption of good project control practises.
21:53
So we measured that and I did this exercise where I compared
21:56
it with profitability. And there's a very strong
21:59
relationship between good project controls and
22:02
profitability. It's, it's, it's, it's not, you
22:05
know, it's not, you're 100% guaranteed to be profitable if
22:08
you're doing good project controls, but it's a very strong
22:10
marker that that that leads towards good project
22:14
performance. I guess there are probably other
22:16
things you could compare and say, yes, you know, projects
22:19
that are well run in one way tend to perform better, but it
22:23
was a, you know, the particular exercises it has to say it was
22:25
based on. I, I can't remember somewhere
22:27
between 30 and 50 projects that were running at the time.
22:31
And and and there's it was a very strong correlation between
22:35
the two. Certainly from my broad
22:37
experience, if I can kind of summarise it into kind of three
22:40
fundamental things that make the difference.
22:42
It's not necessarily the detailed project controls
22:46
techniques, for example, if you do or do not have like really
22:51
detailed and intricate plans, it's not necessarily the
22:53
methodologies that makes the difference.
22:56
It's making sure that the ultimately data is connected,
23:01
that it's well communicated and that you have the right
23:04
behaviours and culture within the project that enables that
23:08
success. So making sure that there's
23:10
that, that right leadership. And if there's one thing that
23:14
flows through all of the experiences that I've had today
23:18
whereby there are projects that were more successful than others
23:22
through the use of project controls, it always comes down
23:26
to those 3 fundamental things. If they're not in place, then
23:30
ultimately you could have the, you could have the best
23:34
techniques and tool sets and methodologies from a technical
23:39
perspective in the world. But ultimately if you can't
23:42
communicate effectively to all of your various stakeholders, if
23:46
it's not all connected so it's not telling a common joined up
23:51
story, and then you don't have the right pulpit and behaviours
23:55
in place, then ultimately even the best project controls can
23:59
fail. So I think that's probably my
24:02
take away in terms of when I have seen it been super
24:04
successful. It's those 3 fundamentals that
24:07
that make the difference. Yeah, I think that's a really
24:11
important, important point about tools and techniques.
24:14
The most important thing is that and, and the reason, the reason
24:18
why some tools are better than others, I suppose, is because of
24:20
what they make you do. And if they make you talk to
24:23
each other and if they make you try and solve problems, then
24:27
they're doing their job. And that's, I think that's a
24:30
really important thing to. And I think, you know, it's a
24:34
lesson I could have done with learning a lot earlier than I
24:36
did, even when I was in project controls.
24:38
The important thing is not, you know, counting the widgets and
24:41
making a trend graph. The important thing is
24:43
explaining to somebody what that trend graph means, what's going
24:46
to happen if you don't change things and what you can do to
24:49
change things to make things better or to exploit
24:53
opportunities if you're in the fortunate position of, you know,
24:56
being in a good place. So I think I think it's really
24:59
important. It's not so much about the
25:00
tools, it's about how you use them to aid communication.
25:05
And communication is is is key to what we do.
25:08
So when there's poor project controls, it's when one of
25:12
these, one of these three things missing.
25:14
But but I mean, I did have a question around where did, where
25:18
does project controls need to improve right now?
25:20
So I've been noticing how often you've been talking about your
25:24
communication leadership. So it's the kind of people's
25:27
side of things. And I wondered is that where
25:30
there needs to be some improvement or you know you
25:34
talked earlier, Paul about continuous improvement and so is
25:37
that one area that you is that one area, both of you Phil is so
25:41
more could be done, more could be learnt?
25:43
I think, yeah, I think that's kind of the philosophy behind
25:47
what we've done with this book is, is, yeah, the technical
25:52
skills, sometimes they're done pretty well and they're
25:54
absolutely essential. I mean, you can't, you can't be
25:56
in project controls if you can't, if you can't do the
25:59
fundamentals right. But I think in order to, you
26:03
know, to build on the theme of of continuous improvement, it is
26:07
those other things. And it's not just communication.
26:09
I think it's leadership as well is another, is another
26:12
fundamental, you know, we need, we need to consider ourselves to
26:15
be the leaders of the project now.
26:16
And I know when it's in, in most situations, it's likely to be a
26:19
project manager. But we need to take
26:21
responsibility in project controls for making sure that
26:24
the project is LED well and has the right information, has the
26:27
right insight, and it's done well.
26:30
So communication, leadership, you have those problem solving
26:33
skills, facilitation of other people, you know, getting people
26:37
to talk. All of those things are the
26:39
vital skills that we need to think about to elevate project
26:42
controls, to make it into, you know, the friend of the project
26:46
manager rather than somebody just pointing at a trend and
26:49
saying, Oh dear, I predict dot dot dot.
26:53
What you just said, it all sounds, you make it sound very
26:55
easy, but I imagine in practise it's not that easy.
26:59
What just to pin you down a bit more about leadership, What
27:03
makes for a good leader? What have you noticed on on the
27:06
front line of projects? What makes for a good leader and
27:09
what makes for a good team? There's probably 2 fundamental
27:13
things to do with projects. 11 is does the project have a
27:16
purpose that people believe in? But the second thing and, and,
27:19
and, and relevant to your particular, your particular
27:22
question now is, is the culture right in project controls?
27:26
You know, you can glibly say, well, we're about telling the
27:28
truth. Do you actually operate in a
27:31
culture where you can tell the truth?
27:32
Is it even the right thing to do sometimes?
27:34
Maybe, you know, there's politics and nuance and all
27:37
these things that you have to consider.
27:39
So it's, it's not as black and white as, as, as perhaps we've
27:43
been implying, but it does mean the culture that you operate by
27:47
the ethics with which you are prepared to operating yourself
27:51
or perhaps another side to it. I think probably the, the only
27:57
answer to that is that when we talk about, when we talk about
28:00
leadership in particular, I think there's often an
28:03
unconscious bias to always assume that it means the senior
28:07
leaders within a, in a project or a programme.
28:11
And when I think about leadership, I think about how
28:14
can, how can we set up a culture and set up an environment where
28:19
every single person, irrelevant of whether they are The
28:22
Apprentice that's just joined the, the assistant planner, the
28:27
the risk manager, the project manager, the the director, they
28:32
all have a role to play in leadership and they can all lead
28:37
in their sphere of influence and their sphere of control.
28:40
And ultimately, when I think about how to set up high
28:44
performing teams, and I don't think this is unique to project
28:46
controls. I think this is across the
28:48
entirety of the project professions.
28:51
How do we come together as a group and really empower each
28:56
other to lead in our own areas? And I think you need to have,
29:00
you need to have the trust, you need to have the respect, you
29:03
need to have the underlying culture of being able to have
29:08
those creative problem solving conversations with each other
29:13
and recognise each of the strengths and weaknesses.
29:17
And then also have that kind of group critical thinking skills
29:20
to really make sure that you're making the best, the best
29:25
decision with all of the information available so that
29:30
collectively you can move forward in a positive direction.
29:33
And for me, that is the fundamental difference between
29:37
A-Team of people that are operating and versus A-Team of
29:41
people that are a effective high performing team.
29:44
It's that sense of trust, that sense of collective direction
29:48
and ownership really. And I think we all have a role
29:51
to play in setting that culture and empowering everybody within
29:57
our teams to really lead by example and lean into that.
30:01
That sounds like a wonderful world to live in.
30:03
Is that the reality, or do people still play the blame
30:07
game, you know, Or do you feel as though things are looking
30:11
pretty good now when it comes to the culture of projects broadly?
30:15
I think it's always going to be a challenge because there's
30:17
always going to be, there's always going to be politics,
30:20
there's always going to be budgetary constraints and
30:23
fractural constraints. And let's face it, we are all
30:28
only human. We can only do the best of with
30:31
what we what we can, what we can deal with.
30:34
So I think will we ever get to that kind of panacea state where
30:38
actually we can kind of achieve that end goal where everybody's
30:41
empowered? No, we can't.
30:42
It's a continual improvement and a continual evolution.
30:46
And that's one of the kind of features that I'm really
30:48
passionate about in terms of high performing team teams,
30:52
specifically in project controls is making sure that there's
30:58
there's not that kind of settling for good enough that
31:01
there's always that striving and that continuous improvement to
31:04
see how we can tweak and adjust our approach so that it can be
31:08
more collaborative, more data, data orientated where possible,
31:13
more creative in terms of the problem solving, etcetera.
31:16
Because kind of going back to I think it was one of the comments
31:20
that Paul made earlier in terms of what project controls isn't,
31:24
is just kind of a reporting engine.
31:27
Unless we're doing something about that data and that
31:31
information and that insight, really it's not going to move
31:35
the needle on success. And I think it's challenging
31:38
ourselves on that. So it's a continual, it's a
31:41
continual process, I would say. Obviously, I want to ask you
31:45
about data. We live in a world now that is
31:47
obsessed and having to face up to AI and everyone's jumping on
31:52
it and some people are panicking and some people are using it
31:54
well. So big question for both of you
31:57
that's probably impossible to answer, but what what do you
32:00
think the future direction project controls is, especially
32:04
around how quickly data is the use of data and AI and data
32:09
analytics and everything around that.
32:11
It is progressing and that speed of change.
32:16
I think speed of change was inevitable and it's always going
32:19
to be faster and we're going to have access to much more than we
32:25
ever have done before. I think it's important to
32:28
understand that data is only one tool in our toolbox and
32:33
therefore it's not the kind of panacea and the answer to
32:36
everything. With AI coming in, it's used in
32:40
conjunction with other other, other elements that we have.
32:44
What is good is that I think with the the emergence of tech
32:49
and the emergence of a lot of the, the products and solutions
32:52
that are quickly coming onto the market off the back of kind of
32:55
AI and machine learning and all of the good stuff that's coming
32:58
through. The the lag between availability
33:03
of data, which can be then transformed into information and
33:07
insights is becoming much closer together.
33:11
So ultimately that real time access to information will
33:15
empower the project team to be able to really focus more on the
33:20
the analysis rather than the actual gathering of that data in
33:25
its in its first instance. So I think that side of things
33:29
is absolutely fantastic and will continue to evolve and improve.
33:34
I think, I think it's interesting that I'm tempted to
33:38
give quite a clear answer to this question, say, well, it's
33:41
going to be so much easier for you guys in the future than it
33:43
ever was for me. I'm not actually sure that's
33:45
true. I think, I think it could be
33:47
harder and particularly with the introduction of AII think
33:50
there's going to be a, again, a very human reaction could be to
33:54
say, Oh, well, the machine will do it all for me.
33:56
And the machine will probably do it fairly well most of the time.
33:59
There's clearly going to be a period of transition while the
34:01
machine learns how to do it. And the, the, the data that,
34:04
that, that it's built on is, is, is improved.
34:08
But, but I think it's going to be important that somebody,
34:11
there's somebody there who understands a couple of things.
34:14
1 is how things are put together or how things should be put
34:16
together. So that, so that it can, can be
34:19
a a critical friend, if you like, of the AI tool that's,
34:23
that's built your estimate or schedule or whatever it may be.
34:27
And, and the other side is to use the, the sort of human
34:31
insight, you know, use the human skills that we still have to, to
34:35
change the insight that data will give us into a bit of
34:37
foresight, you know, and into problem solving.
34:41
And I think that's probably, I mean, you can see, you can see a
34:44
world and you consider the pace of change.
34:45
It's probably inconceivable how clever machines will get in the
34:48
future. But there's, I suspect, and I
34:50
suspect we're seeing it already, there's a rocky road between
34:54
that kind of Nirvana of, of when everything's working perfectly
34:58
and, and where we are today, where, where the machines will
35:00
make mistakes, make mistakes, etcetera.
35:04
And it's those human skills, I think, that will be important
35:06
for critiquing the machines, putting them and putting them
35:10
right. Because it's a fantastic vehicle
35:13
for communicating, but only if the information is correct and
35:18
has been kind of. And that I think currently as
35:23
we're going through that learning journey with some of
35:25
these, I think there does need to be an awful lot of that kind
35:28
of human, human insight and human experience as we're going
35:33
through this exponential change. Where are things at right now
35:38
with these changes with AI? Do you do if you use them in
35:41
projects at the moment, are they being, I mean how they're being
35:44
employed or experimented with? Are you able to say?
35:48
First of all, it depends on on which industry you're in.
35:51
I think some industries are much more exploratory in this area.
35:57
But certainly the the real inroads that I've seen and
36:01
witnessed is all around that closing of closing of data gap
36:07
so that you're getting real time information.
36:09
That's one of the things that's coming through really, really
36:12
quickly and I think that's a positive step.
36:15
The other is around how things can be visualised and also how
36:21
how things can be used in a predictive way.
36:24
Kind of going through going back to kind of Paul's comment in
36:26
terms of that foresight and making sure that the the
36:29
predictive analytics is starting to come through because it's all
36:32
well and good at seeing where you are today.
36:35
It's where potentially you are heading tomorrow.
36:39
So that then the human in the loop can then essentially have
36:43
the discussions with the team and decide how they, how they
36:48
could respond to the various different probabilities of, of
36:52
the kind of outcomes of the next stages.
36:55
So I think it's broad broadly, I think it's it's becoming a much
37:01
better tool to use within, within that space of looking
37:05
forward-looking at trends, looking at insights, etcetera.
37:08
But yeah, ultimately who who knows where we will be in
37:12
another, in another 10 years time.
37:14
I have young kids that are both six and seven, and me and my
37:18
husband often talk about what their careers and what their
37:22
journeys are going to look like because it will be entirely
37:26
different to what we've experienced.
37:29
Paul, was there anything you'd like to add to that?
37:32
I don't in a way think about the future that much other than the,
37:38
the point I made previously about we must be aware of the
37:41
way things should work or the way things should be set up.
37:44
The one thing to directly answer your question is yes, there are
37:46
people out there doing stuff. It's quite interesting, I think
37:50
in that when people set out with the aim of doing something with
37:54
a A, they may end up in a different place, which I think
37:57
actually it's great project management that they've,
37:58
they've, they've kind of adjusted their goals according
38:01
to what is available in terms of data out there that they can
38:04
then use for predictive purposes.
38:07
So it's definitely out there. It does feel that those people
38:10
are, and I have to just qualify this statement that I've been
38:13
out of direct project involvement for a couple of
38:16
years now. But I would say that those
38:19
people seem like they were fairly entrepreneurial at the
38:21
moment, You know, people who were ahead of the game and, and,
38:25
and, and, you know, working in a place where they probably have
38:29
still quite a hard sell now, given the pace of change.
38:33
Two years has gone on. And there may be some much
38:35
better answers than than I could give to that question about how
38:37
they've advanced. But there are definitely people
38:41
looking to exploit this area. And there are some people who, I
38:44
don't know, probably make a lot of money or lose a lot of money
38:46
based on what works and what doesn't work.
38:49
The one thing for certain, I think is that it's there, it's
38:51
coming and it's and it's getting bigger.
38:54
I don't think that detracts from certainly some of my experiences
39:00
recently has been to not not overlook making sure that you
39:04
have the brilliant basics in place because it's all well and
39:08
good building all of the all of the kind of shiny new tools and
39:14
technology on to, to try and kind of exploit those.
39:19
But if you do not have those brilliant basic foundations in
39:22
place, there's very little that you can do to really get the
39:26
true value of that. And ultimately, when I talk
39:29
about those brilliant basics, it's the it's it's the project
39:32
controls techniques and the project management fundamentals
39:36
and foundations that really set that up to be able to be
39:39
exploited by project teams. So it's just a kind of ordinary
39:45
note to not overlook the importance of getting those
39:49
rights first. And getting the data right as
39:53
well, to get the data clean. OK, Yeah, that's great.
39:56
I mean, I've gone through this entire conversation without even
39:59
asking you about the book. So let's finish with it.
40:03
I mean, what was your guiding purpose for writing the book?
40:06
What did you want to achieve with it?
40:10
I think we may have different answers to the next question,
40:13
given that we're at like, I suppose for me, the motivation
40:18
was I, I, I alluded earlier on to being being called an expert
40:22
and, and with without necessarily thinking I knew much
40:25
and, and that, you know, the guidance that people should take
40:28
an interest, etcetera. And I think that's what I've
40:30
done in my career and I've looked at things and I've, I've
40:33
been critical of, of some of the shiny toys that people have come
40:35
in. But I've thought about it and I
40:39
think that it is, you know, I, I thought that I had something to
40:41
give and I thought it was worth trying to write it all down.
40:45
And in a way, that's why this book is the size it is, because
40:48
I tried to write everything down, including not just, you
40:51
know, how, how, what, what a technique is and how you might
40:54
do it, but also some of the tips and tricks that we've learnt
40:57
through, through the years. So that was, that was kind of my
41:01
motivation. If I want to summarise that in a
41:03
more, perhaps even honest way, is, is in a selfish sense, it's
41:08
about leaving a legacy. And I think that's important.
41:10
You know, you want to be remembered as somebody who
41:13
contributed. And I think the final
41:15
contribution is to go out there and say, hey, guys, you might
41:19
like to consider this. Now, I'm not saying that
41:20
everything in the book is, is 100% correct, but it's there to
41:24
make you think, I hope. And I think if people think
41:26
about things, and I think if people think about things, even
41:29
when they're setting up the machines to to do it all for
41:32
them, I think that will help get a get a better result.
41:35
So really, it was, it was, it was about leaving a legacy,
41:39
making sure there's no unfinished business before I
41:41
could ride off into the sunset. Karen And what was your what was
41:45
your motivation in getting involved?
41:48
Just as a bit of a back story, I met Paul when I just started out
41:52
in my career through the APM way back when.
41:55
I just joined some of the interest groups and for me, this
42:00
was around the fact that now I've had that experience and
42:03
I've gone through those journeys.
42:06
I have only got to where I've got to professionally because of
42:10
the support and the encouragement of people within
42:15
the profession and that kind of mentoring, that camaraderie and
42:20
the profession. And so for me, giving back to a
42:24
profession that I'm really, really passionate about, this
42:27
has been something that's been really important in my life and
42:31
something that I've enjoyed and thrived within.
42:34
Really trying to give that back to the community, but also
42:37
inspire the next generation of talent that will come through.
42:41
I'm hoping that there's somebody that will come into project
42:44
control similar to position to me.
42:46
I'd have never heard of it before.
42:49
Meet somebody that's super passionate about it really early
42:52
on in their career and falls in love with that and goes through
42:56
a similar a similar career that they enjoy and thrive within.
43:00
And so that's kind of one of the main, the main drivers as to why
43:03
I've got involved with this one as well.
43:07
It's time to wrap up because we've covered so much and it's
43:10
been a real insight into world of project controls.
43:13
Are there any last words of advice or if there was one thing
43:17
that you wanted listeners to go away to think about or take on
43:20
board in their in their job, whether it's in project controls
43:23
or project manager, what would you like to say?
43:26
So for me, it's just reiterating the kind of 3/3 fundamental
43:30
things that pull everything together, like making sure that
43:34
project controls isn't just there for, for the data, for the
43:37
reporting. It really needs to connect
43:40
people, connect data, connect information.
43:42
It needs to be communicated well.
43:45
And that's different for different people and different,
43:48
different stakeholders. And it needs to be done in a,
43:52
in, in a culture where there are the correct behaviours for that,
43:56
that transparent, honest look at where we are on projects and
44:01
programmes to really, really transform them for the better.
44:04
And that's probably my kind of closing, closing comment.
44:07
Yeah. I think I, I think I'd come from
44:11
a similar place, particularly with the the latter thing you
44:14
said there, Carolyn. I think it goes back to what we
44:18
were saying before about having the right culture within which
44:20
to operate. I think that's so important and
44:23
you're right to you're right to challenge us on that.
44:26
Or, you know, the world, the world is not as easy as as as
44:30
you know, have the right culture.
44:32
Tick, you don't have that. But what you can do is
44:34
understand what your own culture, what your own ethics
44:36
are and you can live by that. And just that little bit,
44:40
whoever you are will influence the organisation you're in.
44:44
And the more people that believe, believe in the same,
44:47
have the same values and believe in the same values, you know,
44:50
people come together and projects form their own culture,
44:52
whether it be good or bad, but based based on the on, on who's
44:55
on who's in, who's in board. And I bet you, if I went back to
44:59
the, the example I talked about before about good project
45:02
controls being related to profitability, I bet you'd see
45:04
other things there. I bet you'd see a team that
45:05
worked well together there because they had the right
45:08
environment. So I think that point about
45:11
having, whilst it's, you know, it's glib and easy to say you
45:14
need the right culture. It's, it is so important.
45:17
But if you haven't got it, you, you don't have to walk.
45:20
You can, that's the option to go somewhere else.
45:22
But that does have the right culture, of course, but also
45:24
just by being you and believing what you believe in, you've got
45:27
a chance to influence that culture.
45:29
And you shouldn't underestimate the influence that you have.
45:32
That's a brilliant way to end the podcast.
45:35
That's kind of deep, inspirational, and eminently
45:39
practical as well. So it's fantastic.
45:43
It just leaves me to say thank you to both of you for your time
45:46
and for your wisdom and your insights.
45:48
So thank you very much for joining the APM podcast.
45:51
Thank you. It's.
45:52
Been a pleasure. Thanks again to Paul Kidston and
46:03
Carolyn Browning for joining us and to you for listening to the
46:06
APM Podcast. It's been an eye opening episode
46:09
for me about every aspect of project controls, but I hope
46:13
you'd agree. Don't forget to look out for
46:15
more episodes or to rate and review us.
46:17
Wherever you get your podcasts, we'd welcome you to get in touch
46:20
with your comments, feedback, and suggestions by emailing us
46:23
at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.
46:27
This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body
46:31
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46:34
visit apm.org.uk.