Latest / Mythic Mind Games / 44 - Chrono Trigger: Time Travel, Lavos, and Childlike Wonder

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44 - Chrono Trigger: Time Travel, Lavos, and Childlike Wonder · Mythic Mind Games

0:03
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind Games, an extension of
0:06
Speaker 1: the Mythic Mind Fellowship which pursues wisdom in the paths
0:09
Speaker 1: between primary and secondary world. I'm doctor Andrew Snyder, and
0:12
Speaker 1: I'm glad.
0:13
Speaker 2: That you're here.
0:18
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Mythic Mind Games. As we can talk
0:21
Speaker 1: about Corona Trigger this time. And I think that this
0:25
Speaker 1: was at least most ardently to I guess I'm on
0:29
Speaker 1: the Jane Austin language here from our movies talk. But
0:32
Speaker 1: most ardently pushing for this, I think was Michael Kaine.
0:35
Speaker 1: And so, Michael, why don't you kick us off here
0:37
Speaker 1: with some opening comments? What makes this game so special
0:40
Speaker 1: to you?
0:42
Speaker 3: It's the total package, you know. There's the When it
0:45
Speaker 3: was made, it was kind of it was considered this
0:48
Speaker 3: all star team. I don't know if you've ever read
0:50
Speaker 3: about this, but they were deliberately drawing talent from multiple
0:54
Speaker 3: different projects that hadn't really worked together to make this
0:58
Speaker 3: all star game, and that included the character designer that
1:02
Speaker 3: I believe was the guy that was Dragonball Toriyama, I believe,
1:08
Speaker 3: the composer, and I think the lead game designer. It's
1:11
Speaker 3: been a while, I can't remember all the details, but
1:13
Speaker 3: basically they wanted it to hit on all fronts, so
1:18
Speaker 3: they got all these really talented guys, and it really
1:21
Speaker 3: just shows off, you know, it is for the time.
1:26
Speaker 3: It was just the grand adventure of the Super Nintendo games.
1:30
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, you've talked about how you thought
1:31
Speaker 3: the Final Fantasy stuff was had deeper writing, and I
1:34
Speaker 3: don't have any doubt about that at all. But there's
1:37
Speaker 3: this corono trigger. The story of it was the first
1:41
Speaker 3: game that ever really tapped into a sense of wonder
1:43
Speaker 3: in a way for me that I don't think any
1:47
Speaker 3: not necessarily anything else ever has, but has been very
1:49
Speaker 3: rare to do so since then, you know. So there's
1:51
Speaker 3: this childlike wonder as we're bouncing through time trying to
1:55
Speaker 3: find the moment that time went wrong that we can
1:58
Speaker 3: save it and save all of history. And it's got
2:01
Speaker 3: that that JRPG cast off eclectic characters. You got the
2:05
Speaker 3: talking frog and the robot man, and the engineer, and
2:09
Speaker 3: the princess and the and the brooding spoiler, and it's
2:13
Speaker 3: there's just so much to love about the melodies. I
2:16
Speaker 3: can I have been singing those melodies most of my life,
2:21
Speaker 3: you know, at this point.
2:23
Speaker 2: And oh so good.
2:25
Speaker 3: There's so much that's so good about it. And you know,
2:28
Speaker 3: the first, the first the moment that I knew the
2:32
Speaker 3: game was special was the trial. When the trial went
2:37
Speaker 3: through and referenced all that stuff you did at the fair,
2:40
Speaker 3: and as a probably was twelve or thirteen, first time
2:44
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, all those things mattered. It's just
2:48
Speaker 3: such a wonderful feeling. But that's enough.
2:50
Speaker 2: I let someone else go.
2:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that sort of fairy tale, childlike wonder is
2:57
Speaker 1: exactly why I got a scheme wrong when I first
3:01
Speaker 1: played it. Only when I first played it, you know,
3:03
Speaker 1: it's back with the S and E s. But that
3:04
Speaker 1: doesn't really count because I can't I don't have specific
3:07
Speaker 1: enough memories to really count that. But when I just
3:09
Speaker 1: played it recently, it was right after our Final Fantasy run.
3:13
Speaker 1: I'd actually just finished playing through Tactics again. And you know,
3:16
Speaker 1: Final Fantasy six, Final Fantasy Tactics, they're both very focused
3:20
Speaker 1: on the character drama, right, and so it's very much
3:22
Speaker 1: focused on the characters. And so when I played Croner
3:25
Speaker 1: Trigger at first, I was thinking, I mean, it's it's
3:28
Speaker 1: a good game, but it feels really simple, and the
3:31
Speaker 1: characters don't have a whole lot of depth to them.
3:34
Speaker 1: I mean something that gets fleshed out a little bit
3:35
Speaker 1: if you do their optional side quest toward the end,
3:37
Speaker 1: but really, if you don't do that, they're all pretty
3:40
Speaker 1: simple characters. But it wasn't until the very end, when
3:49
Speaker 1: I've already been a little while, is it Marvel? Is
3:51
Speaker 1: that the princess?
3:53
Speaker 2: Yeah?
3:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, when she gives Frog a kiss? And
3:57
Speaker 1: then someone says, you know, isn't that what's supposed to
3:58
Speaker 1: happen in the fairy tale or something like that, And
4:01
Speaker 1: then it somedingly hit me, wait a minute, this is
4:03
Speaker 1: a fairy story, it's not a character drama. And so
4:06
Speaker 1: that shifts my whole framework as to what I had
4:08
Speaker 1: just experienced. When what you have is, you know, Krono
4:12
Speaker 1: is he's a normal guy. Obviously, he doesn't really have
4:14
Speaker 1: any dialogue, but he seems like a normal guy who
4:18
Speaker 1: gets swept off into this grand fantastical adventure, which is
4:21
Speaker 1: the classic kind of fairy story idea that the person
4:25
Speaker 1: isn't strange, the world is strange. In this case, time
4:29
Speaker 1: is sort of playing that fairy tale element, I would say,
4:32
Speaker 1: And so that just totally reworked my whole understanding as
4:34
Speaker 1: to what I just experienced, which moved it into it
4:37
Speaker 1: a much higher tier in my perception. So yeah, i'll
4:41
Speaker 1: call you frame that all right, David, Why do you
4:44
Speaker 1: tell us something?
4:46
Speaker 4: Sorry lost my cursor. I played this in ninety five
4:51
Speaker 4: when it came out. Yeah, And like Michael said, it's
4:55
Speaker 4: the it's the whole package is incredible music, fun and
5:00
Speaker 4: interesting combat. And of course Akira Toriyama doing the character
5:07
Speaker 4: in monster designs, and he did all the character and
5:09
Speaker 4: monster designs for Dragon Quest and other games as well.
5:13
Speaker 4: But he is yeah, most known for Dragon Ball Z,
5:16
Speaker 4: which I was already a big fan of at the time,
5:19
Speaker 4: even though it hadn't been translated yet because I was
5:21
Speaker 4: a weirdo. But I loved the non randomized combat. You know,
5:27
Speaker 4: you saw the enemies on the map and then it
5:29
Speaker 4: just the combat took place on the map. It was
5:32
Speaker 4: all kind of choreographed to a certain degree. I really
5:36
Speaker 4: enjoyed that. Yeah, Like you mentioned the chat micah Yasunori
5:43
Speaker 4: Mitsuda composed all of the music, and I think he
5:46
Speaker 4: had like his hard drive crashed. He lost a bunch
5:50
Speaker 4: of work. He gave himself ulcers. He was working so
5:53
Speaker 4: hard and got sick. So then Nobu Uimatsu, who did
5:57
Speaker 4: a lot of the Final Fantasy soundtracks, he had to
5:59
Speaker 4: stay in and do some of the tracks. But there's
6:02
Speaker 4: so many songs in this game that the CD soundtrack
6:06
Speaker 4: is on three discs for a Super Nintendo game, which
6:09
Speaker 4: is just crazy and unheard of at the time. Yeah,
6:13
Speaker 4: the there have been a lot of different versions. I've
6:16
Speaker 4: not played. Did you play it on Steam?
6:18
Speaker 2: Andrew?
6:19
Speaker 1: Yeah?
6:20
Speaker 4: I did, Okay, I know that the Super Nintendo version
6:24
Speaker 4: was one of those where they kind of played fast
6:26
Speaker 4: and loose and had fun with the translation. But those
6:29
Speaker 4: of us who who grew up with that, it's kind
6:33
Speaker 4: of near and dear to our hearts. Frog speaks in
6:37
Speaker 4: you know, old English, kind of these zoo Shakespeare.
6:41
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Tis and thews.
6:44
Speaker 4: Right, But you are right, Andrew, that if I had
6:48
Speaker 4: to encapsulate the story it would be difficult to do.
6:51
Speaker 4: It's really more about just the whole package and the
6:56
Speaker 4: adventure that you're on. But yeah, it's it's it's a
7:00
Speaker 4: lot of fun.
7:02
Speaker 1: Micah tell us about this game.
7:04
Speaker 2: Yeah.
7:05
Speaker 1: So I've played through this game I think three times
7:07
Speaker 1: at this point, and it has been a few years
7:09
Speaker 1: since I last played it, so I'm gonna be refreshing
7:11
Speaker 1: myself on it some as we go, But I mean,
7:14
Speaker 1: I still love the game. Like it was I think
7:18
Speaker 1: maybe the second RPG I ever played, after Super Mario RPG,
7:21
Speaker 1: of all things. So I played like Mario PG, Krona
7:24
Speaker 1: Trigger and then famve C six like almost like back
7:27
Speaker 1: to back. So I got like three of the greatest
7:28
Speaker 1: RPGs of all time just to initiate me into the genre,
7:32
Speaker 1: and I've just loved it ever since. But yeah, Krona
7:35
Speaker 1: Trigger is one those games that just does kind of
7:37
Speaker 1: just everything well in a way that is especially mind
7:41
Speaker 1: blowing from the time. Like, of all the RPGs from
7:45
Speaker 1: that era, I'm inclined to say Crona Trigger.
7:48
Speaker 2: Age is the best out of all of them. I
7:50
Speaker 2: think I.
7:50
Speaker 1: Saw like a reviewer not too long ago who played
7:54
Speaker 1: it for the first time, and he said, like, yeah,
7:56
Speaker 1: if Krona Trigger was released like this year, it would
7:58
Speaker 1: be in the running for best games of the year
8:01
Speaker 1: because it ages so well and it's very uh risk,
8:07
Speaker 1: Like it is an incredibly efficiently told story that gets
8:12
Speaker 1: you through the major plot beats like bam bam bam
8:14
Speaker 1: bam event after event, and They're all consistently very engaging,
8:18
Speaker 1: and you feel like you got what you needed out
8:20
Speaker 1: of pretty much every scene. At least that's how I
8:22
Speaker 1: felt like you could finish the whole game in like
8:23
Speaker 1: less than twenty hours, which you compare that to rpuds now,
8:27
Speaker 1: which are like one hundred plus, Like it's just that's
8:29
Speaker 1: super duper fast. As far as like the story, I
8:33
Speaker 1: do agree with your thoughts Andrew that the characters are
8:36
Speaker 1: pretty lightweight, like there's not too much going on with them,
8:39
Speaker 1: except from the Age, who I think is actually a
8:46
Speaker 1: really kind of there Kronos, like just a player stand in.
8:49
Speaker 1: He has interesting events that happened to him that recontextualize
8:53
Speaker 1: how you view the other characters, but he himself is
8:56
Speaker 1: just kind of there. But the way I think of
8:59
Speaker 1: it is sort of like kind of like an adventure story,
9:03
Speaker 1: or like you said, Andrew, I think Fairytale is a
9:05
Speaker 1: good comparison to where it's not so much about you
9:09
Speaker 1: like following the arc of the character so much as
9:13
Speaker 1: kind of just having fun on this adventure in this
9:16
Speaker 1: world and seeing all the crazy things that are going
9:19
Speaker 1: on there, and like going through all of the tension
9:23
Speaker 1: and drama of finding this like incredible, incredibly powerful villain
9:29
Speaker 1: and seeing kind of how the world is operating in
9:31
Speaker 1: reaction to him. Like I alluded to this previous talk
9:34
Speaker 1: with Godzilla, but I kind of think the way Lavos
9:38
Speaker 1: is used as a villain in this story because he's.
9:40
Speaker 2: Also not very interesting. It's just a giant alien parasite.
9:43
Speaker 1: But the way he's used is interesting because it follows
9:46
Speaker 1: what I think is like that the Monster movie trope
9:50
Speaker 1: and like where it's done right, where it's like the
9:55
Speaker 1: monsters just there. It's this force that every just has
9:57
Speaker 1: to contend with. And one of the interesting things abouts
10:02
Speaker 1: because it's a time travel story, and time travel stories
10:04
Speaker 1: are always fun by themselves. You get to go see
10:07
Speaker 1: every single era and you see how all of those
10:10
Speaker 1: eras are dealing with the reality of Lavos, like kind
10:13
Speaker 1: of as they're discovering he's there, they're trying to figure
10:15
Speaker 1: out like, Okay, are we all actually going to die?
10:18
Speaker 1: Or like are we going to do something about it?
10:20
Speaker 1: Are we going to try to harness his power and
10:22
Speaker 1: do something with it? And you get kind of this
10:25
Speaker 1: almost like sociological study, depending on how deeply you want
10:28
Speaker 1: to dig into it, of like how different kinds of
10:32
Speaker 1: people react to that sort of thing. But of course
10:35
Speaker 1: you're these kids on this adventure. You're like, we're going
10:38
Speaker 1: to try and figure out a way to stop this
10:40
Speaker 1: horrible thing from destroying the world. And that's where it
10:43
Speaker 1: gets fun. And as a as a kid, I mean,
10:46
Speaker 1: that was all I really need. I loved, loved that
10:48
Speaker 1: kind of plant so well.
10:49
Speaker 3: And you know, if you really want to take the
10:51
Speaker 3: deep dive on the interesting if you can, if you
10:53
Speaker 3: treat the planet and its history is the main character,
10:57
Speaker 3: you know, you can go a lot further of of
11:00
Speaker 3: how it's character changes and the people and all of that,
11:04
Speaker 3: especially if you know, if you treat the planet as
11:06
Speaker 3: kind of a fate. You know, as we start, as
11:09
Speaker 3: in the scene that Andrew's background, you know, is kind
11:11
Speaker 3: of one of the money conversations in the story. But
11:15
Speaker 3: it's very much a setting story. The story is about
11:18
Speaker 3: the setting and piecing together all the puzzles as you bounce,
11:22
Speaker 3: especially for the first roughly two thirds I think about
11:27
Speaker 3: by the time really it's Zeal that the last pieces.
11:30
Speaker 2: Fall into place.
11:31
Speaker 3: That when you go to Zeal, But as you're going
11:33
Speaker 3: back and forth and getting pieces and realizing you had
11:35
Speaker 3: pieces wrong. You're like, what is where did it go wrong?
11:39
Speaker 3: As you go back and forth and finally land in
11:42
Speaker 3: this one specific time period that has the missing puzzle
11:45
Speaker 3: pieces for you, you know, and you really just understand,
11:48
Speaker 3: like I said, the character of this world and the
11:50
Speaker 3: people and especially the ones that did it wrong, you know.
11:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, and not coincidentally, zeal is my favorite part of
11:56
Speaker 1: the game by far.
11:57
Speaker 2: Oh. It's wonderful, interesting.
12:00
Speaker 3: Wonderful, and the music just immediately catches you. Is different
12:04
Speaker 3: from the rest of the game because it suddenly catches
12:06
Speaker 3: you less with this not romantic or medieval or far future,
12:12
Speaker 3: but with this very very floaty, mystical sound where there's
12:19
Speaker 3: it's not a it's not that it doesn't have a
12:22
Speaker 3: pitch center, because it does have a pitch center, you know.
12:24
Speaker 3: It's not like you know, the dream music that's in
12:26
Speaker 3: everything Do Do Do Do Do Do Do? You know
12:28
Speaker 3: it has no pitch center, right, So it's not fully
12:32
Speaker 3: like that, but it's it's it's it's it's it's hideous.
12:37
Speaker 3: It doesn't want to nailed, Yes, it doesn't doesn't want
12:41
Speaker 3: to It doesn't want to get nailed down to this
12:42
Speaker 3: one spot. It's dream like, right, And so you go
12:46
Speaker 3: through all that until you eventually get to the last
12:49
Speaker 3: of the cities and zeal And, suddenly the soundtrack changes
12:52
Speaker 3: to this very dark right and so suddenly you're like,
12:59
Speaker 3: this isn't the happy, go lucky place after all. Something
13:02
Speaker 3: is deeply, deeply wrong with what's happening here. Just wonderful storytelling,
13:07
Speaker 3: just with that change of soundtrack, in that moment when
13:10
Speaker 3: you step into I don't remember the names of the cities,
13:13
Speaker 3: but when you get to that last one.
13:17
Speaker 1: And of course there's it's not quite as pronounced, but
13:20
Speaker 1: there's still some degree of environmentalist themes at play, like
13:24
Speaker 1: you get in Final Fantasy, where you know, the Lavos,
13:28
Speaker 1: who is this like alien parasite, you know, he they're
13:31
Speaker 1: harnessing his power to basically fuel this utopia right through there.
13:35
Speaker 1: That's where they're getting their source of magic from. But
13:38
Speaker 1: of course in so doing, they're really prepping him to
13:40
Speaker 1: consume the planet. So there's definitely something of that. I guess,
13:45
Speaker 1: I don't know, does that very like typical in JRPGs
13:48
Speaker 1: more generally, I very much associate that with Final Fantasy,
13:51
Speaker 1: But I don't know, you know.
13:53
Speaker 3: It's it's it's very common in studio Ghibli as well.
13:56
Speaker 3: You know you you you've you've had wat seen your
13:58
Speaker 3: first studio Ghibli, Right, Andrew, I saw Mononoke. You know
14:01
Speaker 3: which is?
14:02
Speaker 2: Which is?
14:04
Speaker 3: I call it an ecological fable right there. There is
14:10
Speaker 3: definitely a a in Japanese fantasy, a very strong thread
14:17
Speaker 3: of nature. What's the word I'm looking at, conscientiousness.
14:23
Speaker 2: Living in harmony with it? Yeah, I agree.
14:28
Speaker 4: Yeah, because in zeal you have the floating magical kingdom,
14:32
Speaker 4: but there are people just living in squalor down on
14:35
Speaker 4: the frozen waste of the surface in the same time period.
14:39
Speaker 4: So there's that juxtaposition as well.
14:42
Speaker 3: And harmony is always an Eastern idea, you know, the
14:45
Speaker 3: idea of things that are in balance with each other.
14:50
Speaker 3: You know, things opposing forces that aren't necessarily good or evil,
14:55
Speaker 3: but are inappropriate balance with each other and therefore not
14:57
Speaker 3: destroying each other. Yeah.
15:00
Speaker 1: I feel like with this new exchange happening on x
15:03
Speaker 1: right now, I need to reach out to Japan and
15:04
Speaker 1: get some people over here.
15:06
Speaker 2: I'm not aware of what we're talking about. Oh, it
15:11
Speaker 2: is wild on Twitter right now. Idea.
15:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess the you know, Muscan whoever else is
15:17
Speaker 1: in charge of making things happen has I don't know
15:20
Speaker 1: they tweaked algorithm, but I don't know exactly what they've done.
15:22
Speaker 1: But it's flooded with Japanese tweets now oh okay, and.
15:26
Speaker 3: It's like wholesome American conversations. Everyone's having fun and posting
15:31
Speaker 3: pictures of huge cuts of barbecue and sushi and it's
15:36
Speaker 3: it's okay.
15:36
Speaker 1: It feels almost like it changed like the fundamental nature
15:40
Speaker 1: of Twitter, where it was like the most.
15:42
Speaker 2: Toxic of the social media platform. It's very like this
15:44
Speaker 2: is the most false someone.
15:45
Speaker 1: It feels weird Japanese America love fest that's going on
15:49
Speaker 1: right now.
15:50
Speaker 2: I'll have to get in there.
15:51
Speaker 4: My timeline was a lot of Japanese stuff anyway, so
15:54
Speaker 4: maybe I didn't notice that.
15:57
Speaker 2: Yeah.
15:58
Speaker 4: Well, one of the things I wanted to bring up
16:01
Speaker 4: is that this game begins with arguably the most common
16:06
Speaker 4: video game trope, and that's someone calling your character's name
16:09
Speaker 4: and your character waking up. I think it's just an
16:12
Speaker 4: easy way for you to feel like you're being born
16:14
Speaker 4: into whatever this world is. You know, O Kering of
16:17
Speaker 4: time does it? There are dozens of games I've played it.
16:21
Speaker 4: It's almost a joke.
16:22
Speaker 3: Really, what's really funny is you know that that that
16:26
Speaker 3: that's the story beginning by the protagonist waking up. It
16:31
Speaker 3: is such a mainstay that it's kind of a forbidden
16:36
Speaker 3: trope in the West now, like like there, that is
16:40
Speaker 3: an absolute no go if you are submitting a manuscript
16:44
Speaker 3: to any editor or publisher, they will just immediately reject
16:48
Speaker 3: it if the story begins with the protagonist waking up.
16:52
Speaker 1: Right, it's true where this happens. And then I realized,
16:56
Speaker 1: oh crap, right, but I like that funny released every year?
17:01
Speaker 3: Well, I think, But I think it also works a
17:04
Speaker 3: little differently in a video game than it does in
17:07
Speaker 3: other forms of media, because the video game is you
17:12
Speaker 3: are receding from yourself and you are waking up as
17:16
Speaker 3: someone else in a different world. So, you know, Krono's
17:18
Speaker 3: eyes awaken and there you are in that world, you know.
17:22
Speaker 3: So I think functionally there's a reason it's such a
17:25
Speaker 3: staple in you know, certain kinds of video games.
17:30
Speaker 4: Right, because you can't really start the game in the
17:33
Speaker 4: real world often, or at least not at this time period.
17:36
Speaker 4: You couldn't, you know, like when Lewis and a lot
17:39
Speaker 4: of fairy stories often begin in the real world, and
17:43
Speaker 4: then you go with that character in the fantasy world.
17:46
Speaker 4: I mean even Harry Potter does it and things like that.
17:48
Speaker 4: So yeah, I guess it's just the way to draw
17:52
Speaker 4: you in. And like you said, Micah, he's just a
17:55
Speaker 4: stand in for you. Crono doesn't speak at all through
17:59
Speaker 4: through any of the plot.
18:00
Speaker 3: I have always loved when video games pull off the
18:05
Speaker 3: silent protagonists. Well, you know, it's just such a strange
18:10
Speaker 3: storytelling convention that only is possible in a video game, right,
18:17
Speaker 3: And so it's it's a storytelling convention that really developed,
18:21
Speaker 3: like yes, in the nineties, and it's kind of rare
18:23
Speaker 3: these days, but you'll still see some indie devs do it.
18:26
Speaker 3: But there's a bunch of classic examples from the nineties,
18:30
Speaker 3: and it's just it's just so fascinating that they managed
18:35
Speaker 3: a good the good writers and the good versions of
18:38
Speaker 3: it where all these characters have this conversation around this character,
18:41
Speaker 3: but that character never says anything and it's okay, and
18:44
Speaker 3: it just and they're not being left out. Somehow it works,
18:47
Speaker 3: you know, it's just it's clever. It's clever, and when
18:49
Speaker 3: it works, it's it's so uniquely unique to video games. Yeah,
18:54
Speaker 3: and Cose is one of the the prime examples of it.
18:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a slight title, but you mentioned like
19:01
Speaker 1: indie games. Like one of the things that I think
19:03
Speaker 1: shows like how influential Prono Trigger has been is how
19:07
Speaker 1: many people try to say they're like play making a
19:10
Speaker 1: game like Crono Trigger, Like off the top of my head,
19:13
Speaker 1: like a couple of recent indie games that came out
19:15
Speaker 1: were like Chained Echoes and See of Stars, and they
19:18
Speaker 1: both build themselves that way, like we're yeah, yeah, and
19:23
Speaker 1: I haven't played Set of Stars. I play Chained Echos.
19:25
Speaker 1: It's never really good, but they're really interesting how people
19:29
Speaker 1: try to ape that design because it just does so
19:31
Speaker 1: many things well.
19:33
Speaker 2: Chained Echoes is incredible. I also have not played Sea
19:35
Speaker 2: of Stars. Though.
19:37
Speaker 3: If you enjoy Crowno Trigger, you're gonna like it. There
19:39
Speaker 3: there are there are a bunch of things, even even
19:42
Speaker 3: in the construction of the plot, which you're like, you'll
19:44
Speaker 3: get to it and like, ah, yes, this is definitely
19:46
Speaker 3: an homage to Chrono Trigger. You know, it's a loving homage,
19:49
Speaker 3: but you'll enjoy it. Well.
19:51
Speaker 4: Another trope that I love is anytime that a villain
19:56
Speaker 4: joins with the heroes, whether it's just for the purpose
19:59
Speaker 4: of you know, defeating a common foe, or especially if
20:03
Speaker 4: they repent and reform.
20:05
Speaker 2: But you know that's not.
20:07
Speaker 4: Always possible, as we've talked about, like in some of
20:09
Speaker 4: the Star Wars movies and things, depending on what your
20:12
Speaker 4: villain has done before they reform. Like sometimes in a
20:15
Speaker 4: story you can tell they're going to reform because they
20:17
Speaker 4: never do anything that bad before they become a good guy,
20:21
Speaker 4: so that we can still relate to him. But in
20:24
Speaker 4: this one, you understand his motives and you know, yes,
20:30
Speaker 4: he's trying to summon Lavos, but he wants.
20:32
Speaker 2: To kill Lavos. That's why he's trying to summon it.
20:35
Speaker 4: So it's like you were saying, Michah, he's an interesting,
20:39
Speaker 4: deep character and it's really cool. I remember being surprised
20:43
Speaker 4: that he joined the team, but I enjoyed that.
20:46
Speaker 1: So I don't know if this should be a marker
20:49
Speaker 1: save for me or not. But when I first played
20:50
Speaker 1: the game, I actually let Frog kill Magus, so I
20:54
Speaker 1: never recruited him, and that very slightly changes the ending
20:57
Speaker 1: where you I think you see Frog transformed back into
21:00
Speaker 1: his original form.
21:01
Speaker 2: It was like, was it Glenn was his original namely
21:04
Speaker 2: that a mentor.
21:04
Speaker 1: But yeah, so I thought that was like the right
21:08
Speaker 1: choice to make. But ever since since then, I've been like, no,
21:10
Speaker 1: I want the party member, Like Magus is cool to
21:12
Speaker 1: have in your party.
21:14
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and Andrew, did you did you recruit him?
21:21
Speaker 1: I recruited him because I wanted the party member.
21:23
Speaker 2: Okay, I see him sitting there on your shoulder right now.
21:26
Speaker 3: It's it's like you get a little devil and an
21:29
Speaker 3: angel on the shoulder, you got a Magus on your shoulder.
21:32
Speaker 3: It's funny because yeah, I'll recruit him just about every time,
21:36
Speaker 3: but I'll almost never use him because I don't want
21:38
Speaker 3: to use that extra accessory to give him access to
21:41
Speaker 3: the triple text with the rest of the team. So
21:44
Speaker 3: I don't actually like using him, despite the fact that no,
21:47
Speaker 3: I'm going to fill that roster out. But no, I
21:50
Speaker 3: always love Magus because I like villains that are you
21:58
Speaker 3: can you can have a couple of different extremes with villains.
22:00
Speaker 3: You can have the the too sympathetic kind of modern oh,
22:04
Speaker 3: I understand why they're doing what they're doing sort of thing,
22:07
Speaker 3: or you can have the flip side of where they're
22:08
Speaker 3: a total psychopath and there's there's a place for all
22:10
Speaker 3: of that. But Maggus is interesting and that he has
22:14
Speaker 3: a very clear purpose, he has a an ethic behind it,
22:18
Speaker 3: and that he's going to it's his sister. You know,
22:22
Speaker 3: he's looking after, trying to protect and save his sister, right,
22:26
Speaker 3: which in and of itself is a noble thing. But
22:30
Speaker 3: it's it's that, you know, that character that only has
22:34
Speaker 3: one guiding principle and will therefore do anything for that
22:38
Speaker 3: one guiding principle. You know, it's always makes for a
22:41
Speaker 3: great kind of story, turns him into a brooding, emo
22:47
Speaker 3: goth kind of guy. But you know, he's he's still
22:50
Speaker 3: he's still an all time favorite, a great great musical
22:53
Speaker 3: motif too.
22:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, the single principle turning you to basic Anakin storyliner. Yeah,
23:07
Speaker 1: he's like a much more interesting yeah, like mechanically, like
23:14
Speaker 1: what Michael was saying. Yeah, he's like the one party
23:17
Speaker 1: member who doesn't have dual texts with the other party members.
23:21
Speaker 1: And that's why I also did to not use him,
23:23
Speaker 1: because like the dual techs are so fun to use,
23:27
Speaker 1: and that was another like thing that was I don't
23:29
Speaker 1: know if I would call it life necessarily revolutionary for
23:31
Speaker 1: the time, but like the idea that you have multiple
23:33
Speaker 1: party members doing joint attacks was is actually very unusual
23:37
Speaker 1: even to this day.
23:40
Speaker 4: It was really cool. I mean it was on the
23:41
Speaker 4: cover of the box. They're doing one on the cover
23:43
Speaker 4: of the box.
23:45
Speaker 1: It was great and adds something to the sort of
23:47
Speaker 1: fellowship vibe and that you know, they all can do
23:50
Speaker 1: something special in their various combinations together. And so even
23:53
Speaker 1: though one hand it's just a cool gameplay dynamic, it
23:56
Speaker 1: also I think does add something to the general vibe
23:59
Speaker 1: that they're giving you. And with Magas it further establishes
24:03
Speaker 1: how isolated a personality he is because it's a lot
24:06
Speaker 1: to work with.
24:06
Speaker 2: Them with do dual texts. It's just like I'm gonna
24:08
Speaker 2: do my own thing.
24:09
Speaker 3: You have to waste an accessory slot just to get
24:12
Speaker 3: access to something extra with them. Yeah.
24:16
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it does, from a gameplay perspective, encourage you
24:18
Speaker 4: to try all the different combinations of characters just to
24:21
Speaker 4: see what kind of things you can do.
24:23
Speaker 3: What can Frog and the fire wielding engineer do together.
24:28
Speaker 3: You know, you start wondering, like what am I missing
24:31
Speaker 3: by not putting those two in the party together.
24:33
Speaker 4: But there was one part of the game that always
24:37
Speaker 4: bugged me, and it's when you and I don't know
24:40
Speaker 4: how it's translated in newer versions. I've pretty much only
24:42
Speaker 4: ever played the original. I played the PlayStation version a
24:46
Speaker 4: little bit. I honestly don't like the fully animated cut
24:49
Speaker 4: scenes that they stuck in instead of the in engine
24:51
Speaker 4: cut scenes.
24:52
Speaker 3: I like seeing them. I like seeing them, but I
24:55
Speaker 3: don't like seeing them when I'm playing the game, right,
24:57
Speaker 3: because it's not supposed to be there for me.
25:01
Speaker 1: One version, it was, yeah, a little.
25:04
Speaker 3: Option to turn them off by any chance, I don't see.
25:07
Speaker 1: But yeah, I could probably just delete the files. I mean, yeah,
25:12
Speaker 1: they're they're cool, but it did feel like they didn't
25:14
Speaker 1: belong there.
25:15
Speaker 4: Right, Well, when you first go back in time, it's
25:19
Speaker 4: to six hundred a d right or I can't. Yeah,
25:22
Speaker 4: you're in a thousand, and then you go back to
25:24
Speaker 4: six hundred.
25:25
Speaker 2: Is that right?
25:26
Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, that's the medieval era, right, And you have
25:29
Speaker 4: to rescue Marl's ancestor, and when you failed to do it,
25:32
Speaker 4: Marl disappears, you know, and when you do the things
25:37
Speaker 4: that need to be done to bring her back. She
25:39
Speaker 4: talks about what a horrible feeling was, and she says
25:42
Speaker 4: is that what it feels like to die, And they
25:45
Speaker 4: never do anything with that, And I just want to say,
25:48
Speaker 4: you didn't die, you cease to have ever existed, which
25:51
Speaker 4: is a very different. It's a theological problem brought up
25:55
Speaker 4: by time travel stories, but it's very different from dying
25:59
Speaker 4: to have never existed at all.
26:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I they very much could have just sip
26:07
Speaker 1: that altogether.
26:08
Speaker 2: Yes, it's really a weird downer moment.
26:10
Speaker 3: You are almost never going to find a time travel
26:14
Speaker 3: story that is actually internally consistent, and you'll find there's
26:18
Speaker 3: quite a few places you can find that are not
26:20
Speaker 3: internally consistent within Crono Trigger. But the game doesn't ask
26:25
Speaker 3: you to deeply think about some of the mechanistic aspects
26:30
Speaker 3: of time travel, but just kind of accept what's going on.
26:35
Speaker 3: And you know, the whole Marl scene is actually one
26:38
Speaker 3: of the you know, the strange ones out just like
26:40
Speaker 3: you're talking about, it's like, why does she take so
26:42
Speaker 3: long to reappear? Yeah, stuff like that. You're not supposed
26:46
Speaker 3: to question that she doesn't reappear until you get there
26:48
Speaker 3: because it's dramatic, right, It's it's telling a dramatic story.
26:52
Speaker 3: And so when you get back to the room, she
26:54
Speaker 3: comes back, and You're right, it is an interesting theological question.
26:59
Speaker 3: It's not that she never existed, because clearly she kept
27:01
Speaker 3: existing on some sense, you know, she was just discarded
27:06
Speaker 3: out of time in some way, which is somewhat horrible
27:10
Speaker 3: to think about. And I think I think in a
27:12
Speaker 3: way the Quasi sequel sort of deals with that sort
27:15
Speaker 3: of stuff too, if I'm not mistaken. I've never gotten
27:17
Speaker 3: around to playing it because I'm happy with Crono Triggers ending.
27:20
Speaker 1: But yeah, I was literally just thinking that, Yeah, Crona
27:22
Speaker 1: Cross does try to deal with the split timelines problem,
27:26
Speaker 1: which Crowno Trigger.
27:27
Speaker 2: Doesn't even bother with. Split timeline exists, like this is
27:29
Speaker 2: all one timeline. We just all know it.
27:31
Speaker 3: Even as far back as the nineties, you could find
27:33
Speaker 3: fan websites that are tracing all these timelines and trying
27:38
Speaker 3: to work out and explain all these things that happened
27:41
Speaker 3: because of Crowno Trigger. I mean early nineties fan websites.
27:44
Speaker 3: It was. They were great. I wonder if any of
27:46
Speaker 3: those still exists. I'll have to go looking, because those
27:48
Speaker 3: were it was just a special time of web design.
27:52
Speaker 2: I'll just saying like that, you.
27:53
Speaker 1: Know, let me go check my Zenga.
27:58
Speaker 4: Well, we're talking about time travel stories. Yeah, Like in
28:01
Speaker 4: Back to the Future, you know, he's got the photo
28:03
Speaker 4: of him with his siblings and they're like gradually disappearing,
28:07
Speaker 4: And I'm like, nobody takes a photo of half a person.
28:09
Speaker 2: That doesn't make any sense. Why would that have happened?
28:12
Speaker 4: But I would argue the most internally consistent time travel
28:17
Speaker 4: story is Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure because it sounds goofy,
28:22
Speaker 4: but they are consistent throughout. Everything that happens in that
28:27
Speaker 4: story had always happened and.
28:29
Speaker 2: Was always going to happen.
28:31
Speaker 4: I mean, Ted's dad's keys are missing at the beginning,
28:34
Speaker 4: they discover, hey, we're the ones who stole them, you know,
28:36
Speaker 4: things like that. It's not like I am in the future.
28:39
Speaker 4: I'm going to send my best soldier back in time
28:42
Speaker 4: to be my own dad or something like that. Like
28:44
Speaker 4: it's all very consistent. But Okay, that was an aside.
28:49
Speaker 1: We're going to throw that into the movies podcast.
28:51
Speaker 2: Yes, I.
28:53
Speaker 3: Could be like, wow, So the other sense, you know,
28:59
Speaker 3: obviously full spoiler here, but the other like, really, the
29:03
Speaker 3: most special moment for me in the game is when
29:06
Speaker 3: the main character just really unexpectedly dives sacrifices himself for
29:11
Speaker 3: the entire party, and his dead Just god, you watch
29:15
Speaker 3: the main character actually get like vaporized and you see
29:18
Speaker 3: the little particles drift away. He's gone. You know as
29:22
Speaker 3: a kid that it was a moment that was when
29:27
Speaker 3: you finally regain control. You know, the game has always
29:30
Speaker 3: locked Chrono into party spot number one, and when you
29:34
Speaker 3: finally regain control Party slot number one, you can put
29:37
Speaker 3: whoever you want in there, and you're like, he's actually gone.
29:42
Speaker 3: They actually did that, And it's just such a cool
29:47
Speaker 3: narrative thing in a video game to just remove the
29:51
Speaker 3: character that you're invested in as yourself, the the silent
29:55
Speaker 3: protagonist that you're supposed to be identifying with that's on
29:58
Speaker 3: this adventure. He's just on, yeah, which is really just
30:02
Speaker 3: was just such a fascinating story for a video game
30:05
Speaker 3: to do. And yes, you can get him back, you
30:08
Speaker 3: can do everything. It's time travel, you know, so you
30:10
Speaker 3: can go to the outlandish Ends to use the Chrono
30:15
Speaker 3: trigger change time and get him back. But it's still
30:20
Speaker 3: just a great it's just a great twist of the plot.
30:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's definitely a good dramatic element. I'm sure, especially
30:28
Speaker 1: at the time, but the way that you bring him
30:31
Speaker 1: back is so comical. When you go there, you swap
30:35
Speaker 1: out a dummy essentially so that you can pull him back.
30:40
Speaker 3: I will say that getting the dummy is the actual
30:43
Speaker 3: worst part of the game. The mini game to get
30:45
Speaker 3: the dummy is the worst part of the game. That
30:48
Speaker 3: is aged the worst.
30:49
Speaker 4: So I always do it first, just to get it
30:51
Speaker 4: out of the way so I don't have to come
30:52
Speaker 4: back and do it for food.
30:54
Speaker 3: While I'm at it, I always forget. I always forget,
30:58
Speaker 3: and then then I get to that spot, I'm like, oh.
31:00
Speaker 2: I've got to go do the thing.
31:02
Speaker 1: And the Steam keyboard controls are awful on that.
31:05
Speaker 3: Awful awful because they make a little bit of sense,
31:09
Speaker 3: and a controller when you've lined up your buttons in
31:12
Speaker 3: that right spot right and so then when you're on
31:14
Speaker 3: a keyboard and you've probably the buttons are probably not
31:16
Speaker 3: mapped in any way that makes any sense.
31:19
Speaker 1: What button? I hit the same problem with uh. I
31:22
Speaker 1: just recently finished f F seven on Steam, and some
31:25
Speaker 1: of some of the mini games, I just kept forgating,
31:27
Speaker 1: what's up pressing?
31:28
Speaker 2: You know you can use a controller, I.
31:31
Speaker 1: Know, I just haven't got it, and I guess I
31:32
Speaker 1: probably should have some point. Yeah, my girlfriend's actually playing
31:36
Speaker 1: through crner trigger right now and she's at the point
31:38
Speaker 1: right now where you go up I forget the name
31:40
Speaker 1: of the mountain is, but the one you go up
31:42
Speaker 1: to to save Krono, and that's where you fight all
31:45
Speaker 1: of the Lavos spawn, which is an interesting little world
31:47
Speaker 1: building bit. It's like, oh, this horrible parasite is here.
31:50
Speaker 1: He's destroyed the world and now he's just hatching a
31:53
Speaker 1: bunch of copies of himself to go conquer other planets.
31:56
Speaker 1: But fighting those is really annoying, and she has trouble
31:58
Speaker 1: with them because like, if you're not careful how you
32:00
Speaker 1: attack them, they retaliate, and the yeah, if.
32:03
Speaker 3: You're not prepared, that's that is one of the hardest
32:05
Speaker 3: non boss bites in the game, basically those yeah, yeah,
32:14
Speaker 3: And that's another great thing. There are what is it
32:17
Speaker 3: seventeen ending variants.
32:20
Speaker 2: I want to say thirteen, but they might have added
32:22
Speaker 2: some later releases.
32:23
Speaker 3: Maybe, so thirteen might be correct. It's a prime number,
32:26
Speaker 3: it's close enough. And what's fun is that there are
32:32
Speaker 3: several most of them, many of them are not very serious,
32:36
Speaker 3: and they are new game plus sort of things, right,
32:39
Speaker 3: and they're fun to do, they're they're fascinating, especially for
32:42
Speaker 3: the time that you know that you can go to
32:45
Speaker 3: new game plus go halfway through the game into the
32:50
Speaker 3: reptite plot line, bounce out of the reptipe plot line,
32:54
Speaker 3: and go kill Lavos such that the reptites win and
32:58
Speaker 3: there's no humans anymore and everybody a reptile, right, It's
33:01
Speaker 3: like somebody and that era went to a lot of
33:04
Speaker 3: effort to think through and actually add that when you
33:07
Speaker 3: know that was art assets they had to make for that,
33:10
Speaker 3: you know, right, But even within on the first playthrough,
33:16
Speaker 3: there's quite a few different routes which I would consider
33:19
Speaker 3: probably the intended route is going to the Black Omen,
33:23
Speaker 3: going through you know, fighting Queens zeal and fighting Lavos
33:27
Speaker 3: and all that. But you can just at any time
33:31
Speaker 3: go use the bucket in the at the end of
33:34
Speaker 3: time to go to nineteen ninety nine and go fight
33:39
Speaker 3: Lavos on foot and then proceed from there. Or you
33:43
Speaker 3: can in you can take the epoch to nineteen ninety nine,
33:51
Speaker 3: and this is the one that actually is the most functional.
33:53
Speaker 3: You can crash the epoch through Lavos's outer shell and
33:57
Speaker 3: skip the first modes and skip directly to the later
34:01
Speaker 3: ones by sacrificing your time machine. You know, it's just
34:05
Speaker 3: interesting as a kid, That's what I did. You know,
34:08
Speaker 3: that was just the first one that I did. I
34:09
Speaker 3: was like, I've got a time machine. I'm just taking
34:11
Speaker 3: it to the boss, you know. But you know, we
34:16
Speaker 3: take those things for granted a little more now. We
34:18
Speaker 3: expect multiple endings in our RPGs because we've done all
34:22
Speaker 3: these things. We want them to matter. But that was
34:25
Speaker 3: the first one that I know of that really had
34:28
Speaker 3: multiple things that did matter.
34:33
Speaker 1: I think Corona Trigger is still unusually ambitious by today's standards,
34:38
Speaker 1: with the number of endings that it's got and like
34:40
Speaker 1: how different they are from each other. It also, I
34:43
Speaker 1: think Corner Trigger might have been the first major game
34:45
Speaker 1: to do the new glaidon plus concept that you were
34:48
Speaker 1: talking about as well. That's all that is much more
34:50
Speaker 1: common now to where it's like, hey, let's replay the
34:53
Speaker 1: game again, but with all the stuff that we got
34:55
Speaker 1: at the end, and you go either like keep everything
34:58
Speaker 1: at the same level, like Coronator does, you just have
35:00
Speaker 1: a power fantasies you blow through everything, or a lot
35:03
Speaker 1: of games will just level up everything to match now
35:05
Speaker 1: just so you actually are still challenged. But uh, coroner
35:09
Speaker 1: trigger I think is still pretty unusual in that it
35:12
Speaker 1: combines that with like alternate storytelling pads to where you
35:16
Speaker 1: actually have that option of like, yeah, you go to
35:19
Speaker 1: the Millennial fare at the beginning, don't even have any
35:21
Speaker 1: party members. You could just go straight fight. Lavas has
35:23
Speaker 1: just grown up at that point in the beginning of
35:24
Speaker 1: the game, and I forget what exactly happens to the
35:27
Speaker 1: ending at that point, but it's like you just cut
35:29
Speaker 1: past the entire story and that's an option, and it's
35:33
Speaker 1: I don't know, I think it's kind of cool that
35:34
Speaker 1: they dread that.
35:35
Speaker 3: So it looks like there are in the original game,
35:37
Speaker 3: there are thirteen endings, including the bad ending and they
35:42
Speaker 3: count that and then the standard win victory that beyond
35:46
Speaker 3: time ending. There are five sub variants, depending upon whether
35:51
Speaker 3: the epoch is still around. There's the one they float
35:55
Speaker 3: away on the balloons. There's the cat one, There's the
35:56
Speaker 3: save the Chancellor one if you never rescued the real chance,
36:00
Speaker 3: or there's on that day ten years ago. I'm not
36:03
Speaker 3: sure which one that is. So there's there's there's five
36:06
Speaker 3: of them. So it does come to close to seventeen
36:08
Speaker 3: if you count sub variants, but you're right, there's thirteen.
36:11
Speaker 1: There is also I was remembering now, So I played
36:13
Speaker 1: the Nintendo DS version, which I think most people will
36:16
Speaker 1: tell you is the best of the versions it has
36:20
Speaker 1: because it's it does every it doesn't really mess anything
36:22
Speaker 1: up on the port, it adds some quality of life stuff,
36:25
Speaker 1: and it adds extra content. Most the extra content is
36:28
Speaker 1: not that great. Yeah, but you do get one cool
36:32
Speaker 1: new ending where you go and I forget exactly it's
36:37
Speaker 1: something happens with Shala and like you fight this alternate
36:40
Speaker 1: version of Lavos called like the Dream Devour or something,
36:44
Speaker 1: which is actually based on the Boss of Chrona Cross,
36:47
Speaker 1: because I think they're trying to clumsily lead into the
36:49
Speaker 1: Coronocross story and they don't do it great, but it
36:52
Speaker 1: is kind of cool that they did add like this
36:54
Speaker 1: whole extra thing involving Shalla because she was one of
36:56
Speaker 1: the main dangling plot threads from the end of the
36:58
Speaker 1: original game. But that last boss is really really hard,
37:01
Speaker 1: like way harder than anything in Base Creditor. So Andrew,
37:05
Speaker 1: how many endings did Juicy or which ending did Juicy?
37:09
Speaker 1: I mean, I did some version of the main canonical ending.
37:14
Speaker 3: Did you go to the to the black Omen?
37:17
Speaker 1: Yes, I did.
37:17
Speaker 3: To fight all the way through that last dungeon.
37:19
Speaker 2: Okay, yep, it's a fowesome dungeon too, so you don't
37:22
Speaker 2: want to skip that.
37:22
Speaker 1: And I went through it in a couple different timelines.
37:25
Speaker 1: You know, you go through, go back, and you can
37:27
Speaker 1: hoff into again at the other time to get more
37:29
Speaker 1: things inside.
37:30
Speaker 3: I did that.
37:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, I forget that that's.
37:33
Speaker 3: Even possible, but you're right. That's That's another little ambitious
37:37
Speaker 3: thing that they thought about, is that you can get
37:39
Speaker 3: a treasure chest in the future, go back and get
37:42
Speaker 3: it in a previous era in some cases, and it's
37:45
Speaker 3: it's there because you didn't get it yet.
37:47
Speaker 2: Right.
37:48
Speaker 3: That's such a little thing that that, you know, they
37:51
Speaker 3: they thought to include it. Just it just makes it
37:53
Speaker 3: so much better.
37:54
Speaker 2: It's just so good.
37:55
Speaker 1: Again, it doesn't work with the standard set by Bill
37:57
Speaker 1: and Head, but it does work.
37:58
Speaker 2: In that did you uh.
38:04
Speaker 4: Like go back and uh oh, shoot, what's what's the girl?
38:08
Speaker 4: The inventor girl's name that's not Bulma but is Bulma
38:11
Speaker 4: Luca Luka Luca? Yeah, did you save her mother's legs?
38:15
Speaker 2: Did you did you do that?
38:16
Speaker 1: I don't think I did. Oh, that would be super
38:19
Speaker 1: annoying on a keyboard. Do you have a spell out
38:22
Speaker 1: her mom's name right right?
38:24
Speaker 3: L A R A.
38:25
Speaker 2: It was l A R A on the Super Nintendo controller.
38:28
Speaker 2: Was her mom's name.
38:29
Speaker 4: You had to punch that in the computer, and then
38:31
Speaker 4: you your mom who's stuck in the machine doesn't lose
38:34
Speaker 4: her legs, and then she's not just angry and brooding
38:37
Speaker 4: in the future. And it's a great little bit because
38:40
Speaker 4: when you go back, she's sitting in the chair like
38:42
Speaker 4: she always is, except she stands up.
38:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it is super hard on the keyboard.
38:49
Speaker 2: Is it literally the keys L A R A on
38:51
Speaker 2: the keyboard or.
38:52
Speaker 3: It's basically whatever the bound equivalent of the L button,
38:57
Speaker 3: the A button, the R button, the A button. And
38:59
Speaker 3: because it's so finicky and precise with the timing for
39:02
Speaker 3: that input, you get there and you're like, oh, no,
39:06
Speaker 3: oh no, what wrong? It's it's over if you hit
39:09
Speaker 3: a wrong and.
39:10
Speaker 4: You hear a scream and you just failed, and history
39:14
Speaker 4: repeated itself, but the future refused to change.
39:18
Speaker 2: But the future change. Those famous quotes from older video games.
39:23
Speaker 3: It's great. It's a good memorable.
39:25
Speaker 4: Line there's other funny things like that mayor whose kids
39:29
Speaker 4: are like who do I hate the most?
39:31
Speaker 2: My dad? Of course? And then you can change some
39:34
Speaker 2: things and they're like who do I love the most?
39:35
Speaker 3: My dad?
39:36
Speaker 2: Of course?
39:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like all those like it, Like because like
39:40
Speaker 1: the last third of the game ish where it opens
39:42
Speaker 1: up and you can just go do a bunch of stuff,
39:44
Speaker 1: Like all the side quests that you do then are
39:46
Speaker 1: super super cool and interesting and they do fun things
39:49
Speaker 1: of time travel, like what what you're talking about.
39:51
Speaker 4: My favorite is the one with Robo and him staying
39:54
Speaker 4: in the past to help you build turn the desert
39:56
Speaker 4: back into a forest, and then you just pull this
40:01
Speaker 4: robot covered in a sheet that's been kept at like
40:06
Speaker 4: a shrine at the church and reactivate them. And yeah,
40:10
Speaker 4: it's just it's a clever, clever idea.
40:13
Speaker 1: It does feel kind of like when they were developing it,
40:15
Speaker 1: they just got all the team into a room and
40:16
Speaker 1: just whiteboarded, like, Hey, what are all the different ideas
40:18
Speaker 1: you guys have for time travel that we could play with.
40:20
Speaker 1: They just tried to work as many of them as
40:22
Speaker 1: they could.
40:23
Speaker 2: Well.
40:23
Speaker 4: The I was thinking about how the three gurus have
40:26
Speaker 4: the traditional names of the wise men from the Bible,
40:30
Speaker 4: and I sadly learned today that they don't have those
40:35
Speaker 4: names in the Japanese version. That's just a localization thing. Yeah,
40:39
Speaker 4: so what are they the Japanese? Yeah, all, I I
40:42
Speaker 4: don't think they mean much. It's like boku hoku and
40:49
Speaker 4: something else like that, Like they they rhymed with each other,
40:52
Speaker 4: but I don't think they meant no.
40:53
Speaker 3: That's that is one of those you know, the age
40:56
Speaker 3: old endless argument, one of them relating to Japanese media
41:01
Speaker 3: is translation versus localist you all and all this this stuff,
41:07
Speaker 3: and you know, I get it, I get it, especially
41:10
Speaker 3: bad localizers that are you know, inserting bad culture and
41:13
Speaker 3: maliciously changing meanings.
41:15
Speaker 2: I get it. It's bad stuff.
41:17
Speaker 3: But there's something to be said for interesting, innocent, well
41:21
Speaker 3: done localization like that. We're somebody who's translating to English
41:26
Speaker 3: is sitting there and thinking, what what are these guys
41:28
Speaker 3: like in the English context? And and you know, these
41:32
Speaker 3: guys give gifts. So we've got three wise men that
41:35
Speaker 3: give gifts.
41:36
Speaker 2: Let's do it.
41:37
Speaker 3: And they give they give gifts to the guy that
41:39
Speaker 3: sacrifices his life and dies and comes back back. So yeah,
41:42
Speaker 3: let's go with Beltasaar milkyor and.
41:47
Speaker 2: Uh the guy.
41:52
Speaker 3: You know. So that's fascinating.
41:57
Speaker 2: I didn't know that, and I.
42:02
Speaker 3: See something to go, oh, Japan didn't mean that. But
42:04
Speaker 3: then this just this thinking that all my life I've
42:07
Speaker 3: had this slightly different version where somebody, like I said,
42:13
Speaker 3: somebody in good faith tried to add some meaning to
42:16
Speaker 3: it in a way that wasn't deconstructive at all. Should
42:19
Speaker 3: they have done it? I don't know. That's that big
42:21
Speaker 3: conversation between translation and localization, you know, and there's there's
42:25
Speaker 3: real arguments for both if they're done in good.
42:27
Speaker 2: Faith, you know.
42:27
Speaker 1: That's that's fascinating, and especially it works since obviously this
42:31
Speaker 1: is a Christian game. They got BC and AD right,
42:36
Speaker 1: I remember it blew my mind as a different game,
42:38
Speaker 1: but it blew my mind when I learned that dry
42:40
Speaker 1: bones in Mario, I'm assuming we're named after the dry
42:44
Speaker 1: bones in Ezekiel that it reassembled, and I was like, oh,
42:49
Speaker 1: a biblical reference in Mario. Well, hey, that's a Christian, right,
42:54
Speaker 1: So that's right.
42:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, he prays he's got a cross. Mario is Italian,
42:59
Speaker 2: so you maybe we don't have Ian here to argue that.
43:05
Speaker 2: Colonel triggers Chris Rick. I was trying to think.
43:10
Speaker 1: I already said my favorit. Part of the game is
43:11
Speaker 1: zeal that's interesting. There's a mammon machine. I learned later
43:15
Speaker 1: what that meant had to do with money or something.
43:17
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, there's a question, what is that in Japanese?
43:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's probably not that interesting associated with greed.
43:26
Speaker 3: It's greed for power, right right, I mean, so that's
43:30
Speaker 3: the thing. It's it's a good I'm seeing if I
43:34
Speaker 3: can find something real quick.
43:35
Speaker 2: Sure I'm not seeing Japanese name for the man, and.
43:40
Speaker 3: It looks like it translates more literally to something like
43:43
Speaker 3: demon machine or devil vessel.
43:45
Speaker 2: Okay, that's what.
43:47
Speaker 3: So the English localization is indeed a localization creative choice.
43:51
Speaker 3: So it invo evokes the greed.
43:55
Speaker 1: Kind of uman of greed essentially, which works, you know,
43:59
Speaker 1: the expressing.
44:00
Speaker 3: And that's also interesting because you know, Nintendo in the
44:05
Speaker 3: nineties has an interesting reputation of actually removing religious symbolism
44:10
Speaker 3: from so very famously. The first one that comes to mind,
44:15
Speaker 3: and I know there's a bunch of them, is the
44:18
Speaker 3: very first Zelda game, the Legend of Zelda. In English,
44:21
Speaker 3: there is a magic Book and the Magic Book.
44:26
Speaker 2: What does it do?
44:26
Speaker 3: Is it shoot a little projectiles? I can't remember what
44:29
Speaker 3: is the matter?
44:30
Speaker 2: It makes your fire at the end of the magic
44:33
Speaker 2: wand I think is what it does.
44:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's up great for the magic Well in Japanese?
44:39
Speaker 3: Does anyone want to know what the Magic Book is?
44:44
Speaker 2: I believe did they?
44:45
Speaker 3: Did they change the symbol on the front or did
44:47
Speaker 3: they not change that?
44:48
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think it may still have a cross on
44:50
Speaker 2: the phone.
44:51
Speaker 3: Okay, it's still it still does have a cross. Yeah,
44:53
Speaker 3: it still does have a cross on the front. So
44:55
Speaker 3: it's interesting that Nintendo of America had that reputation of
45:00
Speaker 3: wiping out religious imagery and stuff when they could and language,
45:07
Speaker 3: and yet somebody added in some extra religious illusions in
45:12
Speaker 3: the chrono trigger in the process of localization.
45:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, they just went for more obscure religious references and
45:19
Speaker 2: it does.
45:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. And it doesn't feel out of place too,
45:22
Speaker 3: because we know that we know that Japanese RPGs love
45:27
Speaker 3: alluding to Christian terms and things like that, especially late
45:30
Speaker 3: in the period immediately after that. They love using especially
45:35
Speaker 3: Catholic imagery and symbolism. Any oh, man, see I learned
45:40
Speaker 3: something about one of my favorite games tonight. I'm just happy.
45:44
Speaker 1: You know, it is interesting that Japan would be too
45:47
Speaker 1: Christian for American autos.
45:51
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, Ozzie, Slash and Flea are obviously localization things
45:57
Speaker 4: as well, but I did not know.
45:59
Speaker 2: I just looked it up.
46:00
Speaker 4: They are vinegar, soy, sauce and mayonnaise in Jepany.
46:06
Speaker 1: That changes my view of Chronocross, which tries to do
46:09
Speaker 1: a lot of the same things. Like there's this goofy
46:11
Speaker 1: pair that follows you around called Sultan Pepor the whole time,
46:14
Speaker 1: and I think Ozsi at least Ozzy and maybe also
46:17
Speaker 1: Slashing Free actually cameo.
46:19
Speaker 2: In Cronacross as well. But that's a very Kiratriyama thing.
46:23
Speaker 4: I mean, all the dragon Ball characters, a lot of
46:25
Speaker 4: them named after vegetables, lots of weird borrowed English.
46:29
Speaker 2: So Vegeta actually is named after a vegetable, well, carrot,
46:35
Speaker 2: and and like there's rabits and Napa and they're all
46:39
Speaker 2: of the sayings, I'll have these vegetable names. We're getting
46:42
Speaker 2: way off course, and it's still the same artist. Yes,
46:47
Speaker 2: they worked on Crono Trigger.
46:49
Speaker 3: Oh man, so the next the next time I play
46:53
Speaker 3: Chrono Trigger. I am going to be checking all sorts
46:56
Speaker 3: of localizations. I think I'm gonna when I come across
46:58
Speaker 3: a set of names or then it's termed, I'm gonna
47:01
Speaker 3: have to check in because that's just fascinating.
47:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, speak of that.
47:04
Speaker 1: So one interesting thing as far as again talk about
47:06
Speaker 1: Kernel triggers legacy, Like I feel like this is one
47:09
Speaker 1: of those weird series that Square now Square Enix has
47:13
Speaker 1: that they've never been able to figure out what to
47:14
Speaker 1: do with. Like they made a sequel with Cronocross, which
47:17
Speaker 1: feels completely different from Prono Trigger, Like, uh, it's to
47:21
Speaker 1: the point where I'm like, why did you even make
47:23
Speaker 1: it a Chrono game, Like, just do a different thing
47:25
Speaker 1: with it. But ever since that, we have not gotten
47:27
Speaker 1: another Chrono game, like it was rumored we get like
47:29
Speaker 1: something called Chrono Break. Who knows how much of a
47:31
Speaker 1: thing that ever was. But by now it's been what
47:34
Speaker 1: like twenty thirty years how long it's been since Cronacross, and.
47:39
Speaker 3: We live in the age of the Endless Remake and
47:41
Speaker 3: we haven't even gotten really a remake or a remaster
47:46
Speaker 3: of Chrono Trigger either, which you would you would write,
47:50
Speaker 3: but you would think that that that'd be the the
47:53
Speaker 3: thing that they would do in an attempt to print money,
47:55
Speaker 3: which could obviously go very very wrong, because I mean,
47:58
Speaker 3: look at that background behind Andrew. It had the graphics
48:01
Speaker 3: having aged today in thirty years, right, it's it's still
48:04
Speaker 3: just a gorgeous piece of art, but it's it's you're right,
48:09
Speaker 3: it's amazing. It's they haven't known what to do with it.
48:11
Speaker 3: They lightning struck and they've just kind of sat with it.
48:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think like because they have Square has
48:22
Speaker 1: done like big three D remakes of stuff obviously found
48:25
Speaker 1: this It's even remake happened like, uh, it's board scared,
48:28
Speaker 1: but like Trials of Mana got a full three D remake,
48:30
Speaker 1: Romancing Saga two got a full three D remake, and
48:34
Speaker 1: like these are like super ob scared. Dame Krona Trigger
48:35
Speaker 1: would make way more money than any of them. But
48:39
Speaker 1: uh yeah, like I think it might be like how
48:41
Speaker 1: timeless the graphics are where they're kind of a little
48:44
Speaker 1: scared of what would happen. Like they might be able
48:46
Speaker 1: to pull it off with like an HD two D look,
48:49
Speaker 1: but like a full three D would just feel very different.
48:52
Speaker 3: They are like they are scared that that someone is
48:55
Speaker 3: gonna cut the mom is going to come and burn
48:58
Speaker 3: down their studio, get the pitchforks? What are they doing?
49:02
Speaker 2: So?
49:02
Speaker 1: Who knows what the future holds for this series. I
49:04
Speaker 1: don't know if I even necessarily want a sequel at
49:07
Speaker 1: this point, because it's like it Cronocross.
49:09
Speaker 2: Didn't do it.
49:10
Speaker 1: I don't know if another tip would do any better
49:12
Speaker 1: because and like we lost some of the creators.
49:14
Speaker 2: By the way, I know a.
49:15
Speaker 3: Lot of people that really love Crono Cross too, because
49:18
Speaker 3: apparently it is a very good game, and it's an
49:20
Speaker 3: interesting game and has a billion characters apparently, But you know,
49:27
Speaker 3: I think it's generally that kind of that feeling that
49:30
Speaker 3: it's not a good sequel. It's a great game that's
49:32
Speaker 3: not a good sequel.
49:34
Speaker 2: That's exactly my opinion, which which is.
49:35
Speaker 3: Why I've always just said, even though it's finally available
49:39
Speaker 3: on Steam, I've just been like, no, I'm just gonna.
49:42
Speaker 2: Let it lie.
49:43
Speaker 3: I'll be happier to let it lie.
49:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very much a flawed masterpiece. Like you mentioned,
49:49
Speaker 1: it has like thirty party members, like almost none of
49:51
Speaker 1: them get any development at all, Like you barely meet
49:54
Speaker 1: them and then they're in your party and you never
49:56
Speaker 1: hear from them again, so it's it's got your decisions.
50:01
Speaker 1: It's combat system is totally different, like you don't have
50:05
Speaker 1: active time anymore. There's not really I think technically there's
50:08
Speaker 1: dual text, but I never even found a dual tech
50:10
Speaker 1: and my entire time playing the game, the art style
50:13
Speaker 1: doesn't look at all similar. Soundtrack's amazing. That one is
50:17
Speaker 1: also done by Mitsuda, and it's a much darker story
50:21
Speaker 1: and it feels almost deconstructionist with how it approaches the
50:25
Speaker 1: characters and stuff in the first game. When it finally
50:27
Speaker 1: brings them in very late, it's like, wait, they kind
50:30
Speaker 1: of just didn't quite achieve what they wanted, Like what's
50:33
Speaker 1: going on here? The story doesn't explain itself well. But
50:37
Speaker 1: it is still a really fun game, and it does
50:39
Speaker 1: some really fascinating things when you start begging into especially
50:42
Speaker 1: with the multiple timeline stuff. And it has one of
50:44
Speaker 1: my favorite I won't spoil that game since we're talking
50:47
Speaker 1: about this one, but it has one of my favorite
50:50
Speaker 1: sequences where you go through kind of this dystopian environment
50:54
Speaker 1: with probably some of my favorite music ever in a
50:56
Speaker 1: video game. Yeah, it's interesting to play. I will recommend
51:01
Speaker 1: playing it just for how interesting it is. But if
51:05
Speaker 1: you just want more chrono trigger, it's not that. It's
51:07
Speaker 1: absolutely not that, like you're getting a totally different game.
51:09
Speaker 3: The good thing is there are about fifty indie games
51:12
Speaker 3: that try and make more chrono trigger. So if you
51:14
Speaker 3: need that, it's scratched. There are games that try and
51:17
Speaker 3: scratch that itch for better or for worse. Yeah, absolutely,
51:27
Speaker 3: but yeah, absolutely amazing game. I can hear all of
51:31
Speaker 3: the texts and the sound effects, just like playing in
51:35
Speaker 3: My Soul. To this day, Loumiere has like this crunchy
51:39
Speaker 3: sound Antipode three, These just crunchy sound effects that just
51:42
Speaker 3: push that little sound chip to the max. I just
51:46
Speaker 3: it's just burnt into my memory. That game is just
51:48
Speaker 3: burnt into.
51:49
Speaker 2: My memory forever.
51:50
Speaker 3: It's just there's just so much about it.
51:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm remembering Shalla's theme right now. It's very instinct.
51:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, And if you want to go and look, I
52:00
Speaker 3: don't know if anybody likes the whole realm of you know,
52:05
Speaker 3: people remixing video game you know, soundtracks and rewriting and
52:09
Speaker 3: reorchestrating and things like that, there's probably more. Shala's theme
52:13
Speaker 3: is probably one of these single most remade video game
52:17
Speaker 3: soundtracks of all time. Way back in the day, early
52:20
Speaker 3: early two thousands, it was a website that was oc
52:23
Speaker 3: remix NEYB. I know that Overclocked Remix.
52:26
Speaker 2: I have downloaded so many songs from them.
52:27
Speaker 3: Uh huh, uh huh. There were so you know, that
52:30
Speaker 3: was pre YouTube. You know, that was where guys that
52:34
Speaker 3: had sound libraries and some of them were recording with
52:37
Speaker 3: guitars and stuff, were uploading MP three's of you know,
52:41
Speaker 3: video game tracks that they'd remade the music too. You know,
52:44
Speaker 3: there were more Chrono Trigger tracks by three or four
52:50
Speaker 3: times than the next closest game, and there were more
52:53
Speaker 3: remakes of Shala's theme than any other track by an
52:57
Speaker 3: order of magnitude, even in like thousand and two, you know,
53:01
Speaker 3: two thousand and three, and to this day, if you
53:03
Speaker 3: went to YouTube and you type Shala's theme, you will
53:06
Speaker 3: find probably you could probably dig and find hundreds of
53:10
Speaker 3: them dating back for the last fifteen years of YouTube's
53:13
Speaker 3: history of people lovingly remaking that theme over and over
53:17
Speaker 3: and over. Yeah, definitely a legacy, definitely a legacy there.
53:23
Speaker 1: It really is incredible how just the artistic quality that
53:27
Speaker 1: you get in the s and e sgrpgs, especially something
53:30
Speaker 1: like Chrona Trigger, which has definitely a unique aesthetic which
53:34
Speaker 1: has been said could pass as a modern game of
53:38
Speaker 1: the kind in a way that say, you know, Final
53:40
Speaker 1: Fantasy six, you go back and play that, and the
53:43
Speaker 1: general aesthetics, it feels like you're playing a retro game, right,
53:46
Speaker 1: Whereas Crona Trigger is much smoother, it still has that beauty,
53:49
Speaker 1: the music still very much you know pops today. It's
53:53
Speaker 1: just it's incredibly the artistic quality that could put into
53:56
Speaker 1: those cartridges, right.
54:02
Speaker 3: And you know, that's another thing that that is really
54:07
Speaker 3: kind of unique to video games of that time period.
54:10
Speaker 3: Somewhat in the later time period, but especially for the
54:13
Speaker 3: kind of that that sixteen and eight bit era was.
54:18
Speaker 3: Those systems were very limited in their capabilities.
54:22
Speaker 2: Right.
54:24
Speaker 3: You can go through and you can watch people talking
54:26
Speaker 3: about that the weird tricks and things that they did that, oh,
54:28
Speaker 3: there wasn't enough sound, There wasn't enough sound channels for
54:32
Speaker 3: them to make this music track like they wanted, and
54:35
Speaker 3: so they tapped into basically doing something else that used
54:40
Speaker 3: this other thing that created a buzz of distortion that
54:44
Speaker 3: they used for percussion at you know, specific times. And
54:47
Speaker 3: you find those limitations that they worked with and all that,
54:50
Speaker 3: all those things, and you you also find with the
54:54
Speaker 3: Super Nintendo era, especially that not every game cartridge was equal.
55:01
Speaker 3: They cost ratit, they cost different amounts because there were
55:04
Speaker 3: different chips inside some of the cartridges that allowed them
55:07
Speaker 3: to do different things. And I believe Chrono Trigger is
55:10
Speaker 3: one of them because it has the flat the flat
55:13
Speaker 3: world where there's like the scaling three D section. So
55:16
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure that Chrono Trigger is one of them,
55:18
Speaker 3: because I don't think the base cartridges had that that
55:22
Speaker 3: that three D capability. So it's really interesting that those
55:26
Speaker 3: guys that were basically locked into very specific capabilities, specifically
55:33
Speaker 3: with a few of those games in that Super Nintendo era,
55:35
Speaker 3: really did things that just don't look like the other
55:38
Speaker 3: stuff of that era. Yeah, I remember seeing a Chrono Trigger. Yeah,
55:43
Speaker 3: Crono Trigger also had more a bigger hard drive the
55:47
Speaker 3: memory on it. It wasn't a hard drive obviously. I
55:49
Speaker 3: remember seeing advertisements and like Nintendo Power that they're like
55:52
Speaker 3: the thirty two megabyte Adventure.
55:54
Speaker 2: Right, actually megabait megabyte, you are correct.
55:59
Speaker 3: But it's huge.
56:01
Speaker 1: It was huge.
56:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and you think about all of that
56:04
Speaker 3: that love and care that they crammed within the limitations
56:07
Speaker 3: of that system to create something that still stands up
56:13
Speaker 3: very well today. It's really impressive. You know, it's not
56:19
Speaker 3: a good thing sometimes to have unlimited, seemingly unlimited capabilities,
56:24
Speaker 3: because then you don't really don't really dial into your
56:28
Speaker 3: resources and the things that you have, and you take
56:30
Speaker 3: things for granted as opposed to you know, those guys
56:33
Speaker 3: that are looking, this is the absolute limits of what
56:35
Speaker 3: this could What are the at what are the absolute
56:37
Speaker 3: limits that we can't do any more than this? So
56:39
Speaker 3: what how do we take that to the absolute most?
56:41
Speaker 3: And by golly, it's the test of time.
56:44
Speaker 1: So, yeah, it's an incredibly ambitious game, like in just
56:48
Speaker 1: every dimension. It feels like it's like it's like one
56:51
Speaker 1: of those last super n S games that was just
56:53
Speaker 1: like the masters of their craft working on it. That's
56:56
Speaker 1: one of the reasons it's soakabul Yeah. And so even
56:59
Speaker 1: though it's not a terribly complicated game on a philosophical level,
57:05
Speaker 1: I don't think it needs to be.
57:06
Speaker 2: I think it is.
57:07
Speaker 1: Overall it's a fairly simple game that provides just the
57:12
Speaker 1: fun adventure with great music, great artistry, and I think
57:19
Speaker 1: it's okay that it is just that right. It is
57:21
Speaker 1: more of a fairy story than a character drama, and
57:23
Speaker 1: I think it does what it does very well in
57:25
Speaker 1: a way that obviously has left a legacy of nostalgia
57:28
Speaker 1: for a great many people, precisely for that reason that
57:33
Speaker 1: it just the experience sticks with you, I think, even
57:37
Speaker 1: more so than say the plot right, So good. Anyone
57:42
Speaker 1: have any other final works to say before we go
57:44
Speaker 1: and wrap, Well, thank you guys for really leading this conversation.
57:49
Speaker 1: I didn't have as much as say this time, but
57:51
Speaker 1: so I appreciate you guys doing that. The next thing
57:53
Speaker 1: we'll be talking about in a couple of weeks is
57:56
Speaker 1: Outer Wilds, which also was a Michael recommendation. So if
57:59
Speaker 1: you have and play that, make sure that you do,
58:01
Speaker 1: and we will talk about it. Then thank you for
58:04
Speaker 1: listening to Mythic Mind games. If you enjoyed this conversation
58:07
Speaker 1: and you would like to support us, and if you
58:09
Speaker 1: would like to join us in any of these conversations,
58:12
Speaker 1: then head over to Patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind.
58:16
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58:17
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58:21
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58:24
Speaker 1: Mythic Mind Movies, and the main Mythic Mind podcast. Or
58:28
Speaker 1: if you want to keep listening for free, then by
58:30
Speaker 1: all means, continue to do that, and I would encourage
58:33
Speaker 1: you to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts,
58:35
Speaker 1: Spotify and wherever else you can do that. And if
58:38
Speaker 1: you are going to keep listening on the freebe feeds,
58:41
Speaker 1: then the next thing to come out from Mythic Mind
58:43
Speaker 1: will be on Monday, as we continue with Boethius's The
58:47
Speaker 1: Constellation of Philosophy, and then we will be back here
58:50
Speaker 1: on Mythic Mind Games in a couple of weeks or
58:53
Speaker 1: so to discuss the outer Wilds and so look forward
58:56
Speaker 1: to that. But until next time, farewell,