Latest / The Catholic Current / Why Not Defend Marriage? (Arthur Schaper) 10/6/26

Transcript

Why Not Defend Marriage? (Arthur Schaper) 10/6/26 · The Catholic Current

0:00
This is The Catholic Current with Father Robert McTague.
0:04
I've told couples too who are not living together but are also not
0:08
chaste, said what you're saying to your future spouse is, look at me,
0:12
I can't be trusted. Look at me, I'm willing to defy
0:16
Christ. Now pledge yourself to me body
0:19
and soul. That's drilling holes in the bottom of the
0:23
boat before it launches, isn't it? Yes, it is. You know,
0:26
the only secure way of being close to God is by avoiding
0:30
sin and living virtue. You. Praise be Jesus Christ.
0:34
This is Father Robert McTeague of the Society of Jesus, your daily host for The
0:38
Catholic Current, where we bring Christ to the world and the world to Christ.
0:41
You're listening to us from the Station of the Cross Studios, your local radio station,
0:44
and the iCatholic Radio mobile app, and we proclaim the fullness of truth
0:48
with clarity and charity. As always, let's start with prayer.
0:52
In the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Almighty God, through the
0:56
intercession of Saint Ignatius Loyola, we ask that you pour forth your Holy Spirit upon
0:59
us a spirit of discernment that might hear your voice and obey your
1:02
command. In the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.
1:06
Well, friends, you know that I taught medical ethics for many years. I'm on the
1:09
National Ethics Committee of the Catholic Medical Association, and we would often joke
1:13
about the ridiculousness of the question, is it possible to be just a
1:17
little bit pregnant? And the short answer is no. You're either pregnant
1:21
or you're not. But what if we oppose that question to
1:25
Christianity? Is it possible to be a little bit Christian,
1:30
in particular in public life? Is it possible
1:34
to bandy about the words Christ is King and then be coy
1:38
about what Christ taught? This has been on my mind lately,
1:42
and I found an author— I've just found him fairly recently.
1:46
He had a very interesting interview in February in American Greatness where he
1:50
talked about Christ is King, why aren't we defending marriage?
1:53
And I think his work is worth looking into further.
1:56
Arthur Schopper, welcome to The Catholic Current. Hey, Father McTague,
2:00
thanks for having me. Arthur, help me out here. I used to
2:04
live in Washington, D.C., back before my conversion, my previous life,
2:08
as I call it. I have a sense of how the various rings of power
2:12
work. There are more politicians who seem to have an eye on polls rather
2:17
than on the truth. It seems that you've seen what I've seen,
2:21
that there are some Christian politicians who are gung-ho about saying
2:24
Christ is King, but they seem to drop the ball when
2:27
it comes to the definition of marriage, which It seems to me
2:31
to be pretty clear, both in Revelation and in nature
2:35
as well. What's going on here? Yeah, thanks again for having me,
2:39
Father McTavish. You know, I am,
2:42
you know, there's one word for it when all these people are spouting off Christ
2:47
is King, or they put the cross in their bio on
2:50
social media, or they open up with prayer,
2:54
you know, when they start a legislative session, but it's all for
2:58
show. There's a verse in Isaiah, you know, God rebukes
3:02
the Israelites. Their mouths, you know, praise me, but their hearts are far from me.
3:06
Uh, you know, um, this is, uh, and then it's requoted
3:10
in Matthew. Jesus confronts them about this. Matthew 15, verse 8: This
3:13
people draws nigh to me with their mouth and honors me with their lips,
3:16
but their heart is far from me. Uh, this is a
3:20
political gamesmanship of the lowest order. I would even go so
3:24
far as to call it blasphemy. They are taking the Lord's name in vain.
3:26
They're using his name as a political prop. And as a
3:30
brief aside, you know, you've got this vile contingent
3:34
of people who So they have distorted and,
3:38
you know, again, they have impoverished
3:43
the ringing call, Christ is King. He's not just King, he's King of Kings.
3:46
So first of all, they diminish him as Savior. But second of all,
3:49
they don't really think that Christ is King. They just use it as a provocation
3:53
against nonbelievers, specifically Jews. This is their idea. They've turned it into an
3:57
anti-Semitic clarion call, which is deeply offensive.
4:01
It's the height of blasphemy. It's the height of
4:05
vanity to misuse our Lord and Savior's name. He is
4:08
Savior above all. But, you know, getting back
4:12
to the, you know, the politicians, it's a great— it's a very
4:16
easy political bargaining chip. You go into a district, you go to a church.
4:19
Yes, I believe Jesus is Lord. He died for my sins.
4:23
But, you know, what good is your work?
4:25
What good is your word if your work doesn't measure up with this?
4:29
And for the last year and a half, I, you know,
4:32
I was, you know, I was working with a pro-family organization, Mass Resistance.
4:36
We initiated a very powerful movement. We started introducing
4:40
resolutions against Obergefell v. Hodges.
4:44
That is the so-called same-sex marriage decision that was imposed on our
4:48
country by a corrupt court decision. 5 bad lawyers in black
4:52
dresses decided that they could upend marriage and family and redefine natural law and
4:56
ignore biblical truth and say that marriage should be expanded
5:00
to include 2 men or 2 women. Of course, you know, one of
5:04
the dissenting opinions pointed out, where is the stop? Are we going to have multiple
5:08
spouses? Marriage is not about freedom, it's about a constraint on freedom.
5:12
Ask any hippie. Those were literally the words written by Justice Scalia,
5:15
also an observant Catholic. But, um, we have decided—
5:19
Mass Resistance, you know, and I, you know, I, I no longer work with them,
5:23
but I was proud of my work and I still support them very much.
5:26
Uh, I was very disappointed a lot of pro-family groups never
5:30
want to take a stand on Obergefell. They want to stop spread in the schools.
5:34
They want to stop the LGBT agenda in the public square. But let's get
5:38
to the core of this, the redefinition of marriage. We must say no to this.
5:41
So our resolution, we introduced it in a number of states
5:45
in 2025. We had it in Montana, Idaho,
5:48
North Dakota, South Dakota. We had legislators
5:52
who would introduce it, but then it was never granted a hearing. That happened in
5:56
Iowa. We had some legislators who said they were open to doing it in Arizona,
6:00
but never followed through. At any rate, we We
6:04
were successful in Idaho and North Dakota with getting our resolution out
6:09
of the lower house, Idaho House, North Dakota House. That was in 2025.
6:13
But then in March of 2025, there was a wide
6:17
backlash from LGBT groups across the state, across the country,
6:22
abusing legislators, threatening their lives in North Dakota.
6:26
Oh, it was just obscene and horrific. You had widespread people, you know,
6:30
denouncing this. And before the Senate Judiciary Committee,
6:34
North Dakota has special rules. Every bill must get a floor hearing,
6:38
a floor vote. You cannot kill bills in committee. They must
6:42
advance to a floor vote. Those are the rules in North Dakota, which I actually
6:45
respect. Every bill— people shouldn't be hiding behind
6:49
committee chairman killing bills and not even giving them a hearing so that
6:53
people don't have to take tough decisions. Unfortunately, they have
6:57
a loophole around this in the state Senate. This was in March of
7:01
2025. One of the, the, the carrier of
7:05
the bill, she requested a verification vote, which means that there would
7:09
be a vote, but there wouldn't be a record of how people voted on it.
7:12
So it was a different form of cowardice. That sounds shady.
7:17
It is shady. It is. It's a violation, I think, of the democratic
7:21
trust that voters give their representatives. We expect you
7:25
to represent our interests, our values,
7:28
our mission. And we need to know where you stand on this.
7:31
If you oppose us on something, you ought to have the guts to say so
7:35
rather than hiding behind an anonymous vote.
7:38
But again, this goes to a larger problem where in a
7:42
lot of these red states, these legislators will campaign on, I'm a
7:46
Christian, Jesus is Lord, Christ is King, and we need to restore Christian
7:49
conservative values. And here the— let me take this,
7:53
let me take the hypocrisy to another level. So in,
7:57
you know, like, for example, in Oklahoma, Dusty Deavers,
8:00
Senator Deavers, I mean, a Christian, a real star legislator,
8:05
Christian outspoken pastor, unafraid to take on serious issues.
8:09
He carried our resolution as well. He even got a majority
8:12
of state senators to co-sponsor it, but the leadership
8:17
refused to advance it to a vote. They had the authority just to stop it.
8:21
So, and there was no efforts by anybody to to change
8:25
that. You know, this kind of, uh, cowardice on the part—
8:28
see, people say, well, I co-sponsored the bill, I co-sponsored the bill. Yeah,
8:31
but you didn't take any steps to force a vote on it. That's not enough.
8:34
We wanted to actually pass. And what was really galling
8:38
about this, in the same state, in the Oklahoma House,
8:42
they passed a resolution. They passed a resolution stating
8:47
that Christ is King. Okay, so you can say Christ is King but
8:51
you won't defend Christ's eternal definition of marriage?
8:55
This is not acceptable. This cowardly hypocrisy
8:59
must be confronted, and it is born out of the fact that
9:02
at its core, politicians by and large, they know how to say
9:06
the right words, they know how to press the right buttons, they know to go
9:10
to the right events to get the votes, but when it comes to taking
9:13
a stand and facing political backlash, They won't do
9:17
it. They fear the LGBT lobby and all of their violent,
9:21
abusive activists. They're afraid of big business throwing a
9:24
bunch of money at them and pushing them out of office. Now,
9:28
we do have to recognize some of our sponsors, they did
9:32
lose their, their primary bids this year.
9:34
Some of them did and some of them succeeded. It's all about
9:38
how well you campaign. We shouldn't have— no legislator
9:43
should be afraid of a massive money drop. We have legislators
9:47
in Idaho. We had state senators who wanted our resolution, but the
9:50
leadership sat on it and there was very little they could do to fight
9:54
it. They were able to overcome a lot of financial targeting
9:59
in their primaries. We have a great guy, Mike Azinger. He's in West
10:03
Virginia. He picked up our resolution just before the end of the session.
10:06
He didn't have a chance. He's going to carry it next year because
10:10
he's so committed to the truth. And he won his primary. I mean, he was
10:13
targeted by the RINOs, big business, big labor, and he succeeded.
10:18
We need more politicians. If they really think that Christ is King,
10:22
they should stand by every one of his tenets, stand for the truth,
10:25
stand for marriage, stand for life, and be prepared to fight the
10:29
good fight. You can win. Arthur, I'm going to interject because we're coming up on
10:33
a hard break here. I will say that I've agreed with what you've said,
10:36
that to hold public office, is a public trust.
10:41
It's not meant to be a career. And we do have
10:45
to ask, whom do you serve, and to
10:48
whom do you answer? And here, I'll quote Doug Wilson,
10:52
who said, if nothing is above the state, then the state is God.
10:57
Friends, when we come back, we're going to continue our conversation with Arthur Schopper.
11:00
We're talking about why not defend marriage? Remember,
11:04
rallying cry here at the Catholic Current is Christus Mundo, Mundus Christo— bringing
11:08
Christ to the world and the world to Christ. We do it because our Lord
11:11
says so, for the greater glory of God, the love of our neighbor, and the
11:14
salvation of our own soul. After the broadcast today, go to thestationofthecross.com,
11:18
get our resources list, download our audios, podcasts. Wherever you can
11:23
find audio, you can find us. Follow us on your favorite platform, write a 5-star
11:27
review. We need to attract the attention of the listeners so these conversations get
11:31
the attention they deserve. Take us to your family and friends. Together we'll take it
11:35
to the whole world. Back in just 2 minutes. Please do stay with us.
12:00
You're listening to The Catholic Current with Father Robert McTague from
12:04
the Station of the Cross Catholic Media Network. Stay connected
12:08
with the show and our guests and topics by following the show on Twitter
12:12
and Gab. Just search for The Catholic Current.
12:20
Praise be Jesus Christ. This is Father Robert McTague of the Society Jesus, your daily
12:24
host for The Catholic Current, where we bring Christ to the world and the world
12:28
to Christ. You're listening to us from the Station of the Cross Studios, your local
12:31
radio station, the iCatholic Radio mobile app. We proclaim the fullness of truth
12:35
with clarity and charity. Hey friends, did you know iCatholic
12:38
Mobile supports only Catholic causes? iCatholic Mobile offers unlimited 5G
12:43
data, text, and talk, and iCatholic Mobile gives a portion of every
12:47
dollar earned to the Station of the Cross Catholic Media Network By subscribing to iCatholic
12:52
Mobile, you help fund programs that defend our Catholic faith. We're talking
12:55
about why not defend marriage. My guest is author and
12:59
commentator Arthur Schopper. I want to start off
13:03
with a famous quote from Richard Niebuhr,
13:06
and it's well known among Christians who are interested in politics in America.
13:10
He said this— he wrote an essay called The Kingdom of God in America,
13:13
and he wrote, a God without wrath brought men without sin
13:18
into a kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of
13:22
a Christ without a cross. Now, the crossless Christ,
13:25
that's also a familiar theme with, uh, with Bishop Fulton Sheen,
13:30
uh, as well, recently beatified in the Catholic Church.
13:34
And it seems to me some Christians in public life aren't willing
13:37
to do the hard work. Let me, let me give you an example.
13:41
I think there's a mistake made when Christians talk about defending
13:45
what they call traditional marriage because somebody pointed out,
13:48
well, some traditions are stupid. It used to be traditional to beat left-handed
13:53
children because they weren't right-handed. I'm a left-handed child myself.
13:57
So I would say let's talk about natural marriage. Once you understand what
14:01
bodies are and how they work and the 2 varieties they come in,
14:04
it's really, really obvious what is marriage and what isn't.
14:09
And we seem to be ducking on that. And then Christians don't
14:13
play their best hand, which is regarding what Christ actually actually said about
14:18
marriage. So on your view, at least among certain stripes
14:22
of politicians, is Christ merely a mascot?
14:27
Is he branding rather than someone we answer to?
14:30
That's exactly it. They, you know, they use the word Christian so that
14:34
they get invited to the cool kids' parties in these red states.
14:38
I mean, Oklahoma is the buckle on the Bible Belt. The people there,
14:41
many of them are very wholly invested,
14:44
engaged people. There was a group of activists we
14:48
in Oklahoma Mass Resistance chapter that were very committed. Uh, there was one,
14:52
one gentleman, Mr., uh, Mr. Collins, who was very
14:56
committed. You know, he was going to the parks to protest the drag queen story
14:59
hour, and they wouldn't allow him to bring a firearm, which is legal in Oklahoma.
15:04
You don't even need a permit. But then they started, you know, they were enforcing
15:08
these silly local ordinances which have no proper jurisdiction.
15:12
He wasn't going to shoot anybody, right? But he certainly had a right to protect
15:16
himself because LGBT militants are abusive. They're vile. This is
15:20
from Sodom and Gomorrah to the present day. You have men of faith, women of
15:24
faith who go to LGBT Pride events preaching the gospel,
15:27
and these militant sexually deviant activists
15:32
will attack them, harass them, push them, harry them, abuse them.
15:35
Some of our activists have faced this abuse in other red states as well.
15:39
Christ is not just a mascot, he's Savior. I'm of a— I'm
15:43
of a spiritual revelatory stance that the more you understand how
15:48
much he has saved you, How can he not be Lord of your life?
15:52
Peter's testimony demonstrates this. The first time Jesus ministered
15:56
to Peter, you know, he says, may I borrow your boat? He was
15:59
able to give his sermon to the public. And then he
16:03
says, cast your nets on the right side. And he said plural nets.
16:07
And Peter said, well, I've been toiling all day, but at your word, I'll do
16:10
it. He believed in the word of the Lord, and he only did
16:14
one net to his mistake. And there were so many fish in
16:18
it, he could barely haul it in. Now, his first response is he fell on
16:21
his on his knees and said, Lord, depart from me, I'm a sinful man.
16:23
And then Jesus says, fear not, from, from this point on you will be a
16:27
catcher of men. Uh, and then of course we can fast forward to
16:31
after Jesus' resurrection. You know, Peter was in the boat, he said,
16:34
I'm gonna go fishing. And then the other, other disciples joined
16:38
him. And when Jesus was on the shore, children, have you
16:42
caught any? John said, it is the Lord. Peter jumped right in. Now it's
16:46
because of the love he had for the Savior, for our Lord.
16:50
He had that revelation of it. It was— he went from just a mere
16:54
recognition of his holiness, a clear recognition of his holiness,
16:57
to having a real revelation of the love that he has for him. And I
17:01
would say it's like a lot of politicians. They don't have a robust
17:05
love of the Father. They don't know the love of Christ. They fear
17:08
the reproach of men, and therefore they— scriptures,
17:12
you know, when our— I'm sorry to interrupt, but it comes to me right now
17:14
that when our Lord spoke of the Eucharist, there were people who walked
17:19
away. And said, this is a hard saying. So likewise,
17:23
our Lord did say, you know, one man, one woman for life.
17:26
Is it the case that some politicians are saying this is a hard saying
17:30
and then drift away?
17:34
The other thing that makes me scratch my head is why do Christian voters
17:38
tolerate this? You know, for a lot of Christians don't
17:42
know, they're not educated or encouraged to take
17:46
a firm stance for this. I ran into this issue with another politician in
17:50
Oklahoma who had initially co-sponsored Senator Deaver's
17:54
resolution and then removed his name. I got him on the phone,
17:57
and I said, well, what's going on here? Well, I just don't think the government
18:01
should be involved in it at all. And I said, well, actually, the government should
18:04
be involved. There's a proper role for the state to enforce a moral order.
18:08
We're talking about the needs of children. We're talking about public health. We're talking
18:12
about public morality. It does matter. I mean, we've looked
18:16
at 30 years of secular liberalism where, well, keep your
18:20
faith to yourself, the public square should be neutral. There is no such thing.
18:24
The public square has become a sewer of sexual perversion,
18:28
from the media to academia to the corporate
18:32
world. It's not a neutral space. There has to be
18:36
a moral order. And I just have to give— I've
18:40
given a rebuke in the past even to conservative influencers,
18:44
you know, Ben Shapiro. They're like, I don't think the government should be involved in
18:47
marriage. Nonsense. That's a cop-out. Um, that's a cowardly stance
18:51
because nobody wants to be labeled homophobic, transphobic, or— I
18:56
would even go a step further— people are not properly educated and armed
19:00
to defend that moral order being enforced.
19:04
I love what you said earlier, natural marriage. I use that term.
19:08
I could not agree with you more. Tradition is not to be
19:12
defended. Truth is to be defended. And any tradition
19:16
that that encapsulates and professes
19:19
the truth, that's a tradition you keep. That's— but the basis for tradition
19:24
must be truth. And marriage is a truthful institution established
19:29
at the outset when God made man and woman. This is declared in Genesis
19:33
chapter 1, that a man will leave his father, his mother, and be joined to
19:37
his wife. A man can't be joined to a man. A woman can't be joined
19:40
to a woman. Mass Resistance, the organization I worked for,
19:44
we didn't rest exclusively or even primarily on on
19:48
spiritual revelation. We stuck to natural law, natural right,
19:52
history, psychology, sociology. We recognized the ground
19:56
truth just based on observational data alone. Marriage can't
20:01
be anything but a man and a woman. Anything else is harmful to society,
20:04
to individuals, not to mention the massive
20:09
attacks on other natural rights. Paul Johnson,
20:12
the Anglo-Irish Catholic He
20:15
used to be an atheist. He wrote a book called The Quest for God,
20:18
published in 1996. It was his autobiography/testimony,
20:24
kind of like Augustine's Confessions. And, he was one of those liberal
20:28
baby boomers in the late '60s who said it's wrong to criminalize
20:32
sodomy. 2 men loving each other, this is just who they are. This is
20:36
so cruel. We shouldn't criminalize this. But, he looked
20:40
back on that. That's 30 years after the fact because it was written in '96,
20:43
and then he was doing his activism in '66. He saw that
20:48
his decision to force the repeal of
20:51
those anti-perversion statutes, it unleashed
20:55
a monster which has pushed its way into
20:59
every facet of society, demanding its moral order
21:03
be respected and imposed at the expense
21:07
of everything else. And this is one of my, my heroes,
21:10
Hilaria Belloc, the English writer, said the only options are
21:14
Christ or chaos. We already know what the chaos looks
21:19
like. I mean, certainly in my lifetime, there's no way I'm like, gosh, I wonder
21:23
what the chaos looks like. I know very well firsthand.
21:26
So what do I— what do we have to
21:30
do with our fellow Christians to say the chaos
21:34
isn't working? It's displeasing to God. It hurts everyone.
21:38
What do we need to do to convince them to come back to Christ?
21:42
First of all, to come back to God-given nature. And then come
21:46
back to Christ as King. How do we begin to have that conversation
21:50
with the people whom I describe as the people who should really know better club?
21:53
And I know I've just asked you a big question. We got 3 minutes
21:56
left in this segment. We have to confront
22:01
and rebuke them. You know, 2 Timothy 3:16, all Scripture is profitable
22:05
for reproof, correction, and training in righteousness.
22:08
That has to be the starting point. We have a lot of Christians in general
22:12
who are not biblically sound when it comes to doctrine. I remember being
22:16
in a prayer group, you know, some 20 years ago, and it was mostly
22:20
old ladies, interestingly enough, but I just happened, you know, I was able to participate
22:24
in it. And you had some of the women who thought that they were— they
22:27
thought that it was, you know, kind of natural that women were attracted to women
22:31
and that they would become, you know, sexually involved with them.
22:34
And I rebuked her. This is an older woman, you know, this is
22:38
like one of those old biddies, you know, frequent prayer
22:42
groups, and I said, no, this is wrong. You know, this is— this is,
22:44
uh, God has condemned, um, sexual perversion between,
22:49
uh, the same sex. This is true not just in the Old Testament, but it's
22:53
clearly outlined in Romans chapter 1. And the, the head of the prayer group,
22:56
she was like, wow, you really know your scriptures. But the thing is,
23:00
these were mostly elderly women, and they don't know
23:04
the scriptures. That's not acceptable. Part of being an elder in the church is that
23:08
you do know God's word, that you understand what his what his standards and his
23:11
will are for people, you know. And let's not forget, we got 1
23:15
Corinthians 6: Such were some of you. You know,
23:18
I don't even— I don't even acknowledge this idea of gay people. It's not
23:23
an identity. I don't acknowledge this concept of trans people. No one is really trans.
23:27
You have individuals in their natural bodies who have given in to unnatural affections
23:31
or destructive perversions and are harming themselves. We have to—
23:35
we as Christians need to have a proper rhetorical strategy
23:39
based on biblical truth and natural law. We have
23:43
to be unafraid and uncompromising in confronting leaders
23:47
and politicians and other decision makers when it comes to these
23:51
issues and hold them accountable when they don't defend
23:56
the biblical truth. Whether it's marriage, family, otherwise.
23:59
St. Peter writes in his epistle, always be ready to give a
24:03
reason for the hope that is within you. And so
24:07
we have to know that Christ alone saves. Christ alone liberates.
24:12
And left to our own devices, we only
24:15
make a mess. I mean, C.S. Lewis said how many years— decades ago now— when
24:20
human history is the long, sad story of people trying to find anything other than
24:23
God to make them happy. God is loving.
24:28
He is also order and reason from which we get
24:31
nature, by which we're allowed to have science. And perversions
24:36
are contrary to reason. They're irrational.
24:40
They're contrary to the logos, to the word of the Father.
24:43
They're anti-human and therefore anti-Christ
24:47
as well. And I think part of the work of Christians in
24:50
the public life is to talk about the joy, the peace,
24:54
and freedom that comes from being conformed to Christ and
24:58
the obvious misery of everybody else. Friends, we come back and continue our conversation
25:02
with author and commentator Arthur Schopper. We're talking about why
25:06
not defend marriage. After the broadcast today, go to thestationofthecross.com,
25:11
get our resources list, download our audios, podcasts. If you can find audio,
25:15
you can find us. Follow us on your favorite platform, write a 5-star review.
25:19
We need to attract the attention of the listeners so these conversations get the attention
25:23
they deserve. Everything you need to take this to your family and friends, we give
25:27
to you. Together, let's take it around the world. We can do it with you.
25:29
We cannot do it without you. Let's do this good work together.
25:33
Back in just 2 minutes. Please do stay with us.
26:00
This is the Catholic Current from the Station of the Cross Catholic Media
26:04
Network. Catch up on an episode you've missed or share them with your family
26:08
and friends. The Catholic Current is podcasted wherever you enjoy
26:12
listening: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podbean,
26:15
TuneIn, and the iCatholic Radio mobile app.
26:20
Praise be Jesus Christ. This is Father Robert McTeague of the Society of Jesus,
26:23
your daily host for The Catholic Current, where we bring Christ to the world and
26:27
the world to Christ. You're listening to us from the Station of the Cross studios,
26:29
your local radio station, the iCatholic Radio mobile app. We proclaim the fullness
26:34
of truth with clarity and charity. Hey friends, if you value thoughtful Catholic
26:38
analysis, help sustain this work at thestationofthecross.com.
26:41
Here on The Catholic Current, we engage issues seriously and faithfully,
26:45
and that intellectual freedom exists because we are listener-funded.
26:49
Support us, please, at thestationofthecross.com.
26:52
Our question today on this Timely Tuesday is this: why not support marriage?
26:57
My guest is author and commentator Arthur Schopper.
27:02
So I think of the, the crowd in response
27:06
to Peter's preaching at Pentecost. What are we to do, brothers?
27:09
How are we to be saved? Giving Christian politicians
27:13
the easy way out That's not a good idea.
27:17
I agree with you what you said in the last segment. Most Christians haven't
27:21
been taught how to defend natural marriage,
27:25
much less how to defend sacramental marriage, and most
27:29
people are well-intentioned and recoil and even collapse if they're
27:33
accused of hate speech or being phobic.
27:37
What, what do we need to do to get people ready to fight the good
27:40
fight in the public arena? So I'd like to use this time right now to
27:44
give people some pointers that have been very effective for me, just some basic steps
27:48
for starters. Uh, that phobia comment, I, I— it has gotten very easy
27:52
for me to refute that. What you say is very simple: telling
27:56
the truth is not a mental illness. There we go. It's not a phobia to
28:00
tell the truth. 2 men cannot be married. 2 women cannot be married. Uh,
28:04
and then you can add to that by saying, I'm standing here right now telling
28:07
you that 2 men cannot be married. I'm not afraid to
28:11
tell you that. I'm not afraid to. I was— I've even marched in
28:15
Pride parades to protest, uh, their, you know, the perverse lies underneath
28:20
it. I was in the— and I've documented, uh, the, the LA Pride Parade earlier
28:25
this year, and I was happy to report that the numbers are down, the energy
28:28
is down, the business interests are down. They don't even
28:32
allow people to march in them anymore, I think because it's become so violent and
28:36
disorderly. I believe the gay agenda is collapsing, and it's due to you
28:40
and me and more people having the courage to say
28:43
the truth. And that's starts with biblical training.
28:47
Pastors need to have the courage to say, I believe in biblical marriage or
28:51
natural marriage, and how to take that stand.
28:55
I think it starts with more robust efforts where,
28:58
you know, red states— this is where Mass Resistance began our push
29:03
with the resolutions— these are the areas that are supposed to be taking the firmest
29:07
stance to restore Christian values, uh, you know,
29:10
biblical truth in government. There has to be that accountability.
29:15
There is something called the Salt and Light Ministry. Those are becoming more prevalent
29:19
in churches around the United States. Dran Reese, she is a
29:23
friend of mine. She's based in the San Diego area. I do encourage people to
29:28
check out Mass Resistance. That is a more secular-based approach to
29:32
fighting LGBT perversion. It's not a ministry. That's the reason why. But they don't shun
29:36
or disparage people for advocating for the truth based on
29:40
religious conviction. Uh, I, I do think
29:44
it's, it's a matter of also what parents can do
29:48
on a, on a more day-to-day basis is they start
29:51
confronting their teachers and confronting the school boards.
29:55
You know, what are you teaching my kids? Are you teaching actual education
29:59
or are you teaching indoctrination that is abuse? This is
30:02
a challenge that some people don't want to hear, but I
30:06
believe that it is now much easier than it's ever been to homeschool
30:10
your children. I have no opposition whatsoever to parents
30:14
saying, I'm homeschooling my kid, I am taking them out of this, um,
30:17
banal Babylon system of indoctrination.
30:21
That is a forceful measure that will undermine
30:25
the corrupt power that government education has had
30:29
pushing and propagandizing all this perversity,
30:32
because that's where a lot of this is coming from. You have kids even learning
30:35
in kindergarten certain about, oh, you can choose your gender, you can, uh,
30:38
choose who you like or not like. This is obscene abuse.
30:42
It is child abuse. And I can't help but notice that Drag Queen Story
30:45
Hour is with the children and not at the senior citizens
30:49
home or the American Legion. I, I noticed that as well. Why is that?
30:53
Right, exactly. I would ask my students, what might a reasonable man
30:57
infer? All right, they want to groom and abuse kids.
31:00
Our— you know, when I was working for Mass Resistance, we exposed drag queen sex
31:04
offenders. Uh, Tracy Shannon of Texas with her Texas Mass
31:08
Resistance and his team, uh, exposed the Houston library for not doing the
31:12
background checks. 2 of the drag queens were registered sex
31:16
offenders. One of them had assaulted an 8-year-old boy and
31:20
had spent a number of years in prison. This is obscene.
31:23
This is evil. This is— this is— of course, this is
31:26
what we're dealing with. Alexandra Motz, she's a social
31:30
worker based in San Diego County. She testified before a press conference in Chula
31:34
Vista that Drag Queen Story Hour is about
31:38
inhibiting and diminishing children's natural capacity
31:41
for stranger danger. Children have a natural aversion
31:47
to strangers, which they should, okay? This is wisdom. This is, you know,
31:51
and, uh, that— and the idea with Drag Queen Story Hour is to inhibit
31:55
that and cause kids to dismiss it entirely, which means, of course,
31:59
that predators and child molesters can prey and abuse them.
32:03
This is a routine problem. Uh, this kind information you'll
32:07
find all over Mass Resistance. Christian activist
32:11
Bill Blackhawk relied on Mass Resistance's research, how homosexual
32:16
conduct is inherently destructive. The Catholic Church teaches, and correctly so,
32:19
that it's inherently disordered conduct. Of course it is,
32:23
because you look at the medical realities. I've published
32:26
about that, and we're going to put in Catholic World Report about intrinsically disordered
32:29
acts. It's on every level, the symbolic,
32:33
the physical, there is profound harm, and that leads
32:37
to social harm as well. So one of the things that,
32:40
you know, when I taught medical ethics, I said just understand how the human body
32:44
works, and a lot of these arguments just go away.
32:48
You know, when I was teaching about abortion, I said never talk about abortion in
32:51
the abstract. Let's talk about it, you know, a woman with
32:55
a name and a blood type, etc. And likewise for these actions as well.
32:59
When people do things that human bodies are not designed for, that's bad
33:02
for everyone. And there are good resources for that.
33:06
Let's shift a little bit and talk about the cultivation of moral
33:10
courage among Christians. You know, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Heroic Christian,
33:14
talked about cheap grace, you know, grace without the cross.
33:18
You know, Jesus is my homeboy. Jesus is my copilot,
33:21
but he's not my Lord and King. How do
33:25
we recenter our hearts on that? Yeah, I really appreciate that
33:29
too. I've turned the tables on those like dissident right
33:33
types. They'll say, you know, they say Christ is King is actually
33:37
not very significant. I could— you could go to John
33:40
chapter 6. I mean, the crowds wanted to take Jesus by force
33:44
and make him a king because they wanted the bread and they wanted the
33:48
political restoration of Israel. And Jesus is far more than that.
33:52
He is already King. He doesn't need our help to establish him as such.
33:55
Such. That's a larger theological revelation. But I will
33:59
say too, the more you understand how saved
34:03
you are, what Jesus did for you at the cross, that transforms you
34:07
to being obedient. It produces obedience.
34:11
That is my revelation. We see this in 2 Corinthians
34:15
chapter 3. We are all transformed from glory to glory by beholding
34:19
him. It is the Holy Spirit who transforms us. It is not our self-effort.
34:24
This may run contrary to some traditional understandings, but this has
34:27
been the revelation in my life as I read more of scripture, as I see
34:31
more of Jesus, as I receive revelation of his grace.
34:34
Um, I'm— this may be a— this might be a bit of a departure because
34:38
we're going into theological more than fighting LGBT perversion
34:41
per se. I don't think grace is cheap. Um, it can't be
34:45
cheap because Jesus literally gave everything on the cross.
34:49
I think you see in even in the church a lot of cowardice
34:52
and even a lot of, you know, sin because
34:56
people are still trying in their own efforts to be holy.
35:00
If you try to be justified by the law, you have fallen from grace.
35:03
I didn't say that. Paul did. That's Galatians 5:4.
35:08
This will get you kicked out of some seminaries, but it's in scripture.
35:11
It's in Romans 5:20. The law came in that sin
35:15
might abound. I didn't say that. Paul wrote this. What does the law do?
35:19
It, it's the mirror that shows I'm a sinner, but it's not just a mirror,
35:23
it actually brings out the sin. Is the law bad?
35:27
No, man is bad. I am dead. I need a Savior
35:31
who will take me from death to life.
35:34
And it's that revelation that is so drastically missing in the
35:38
body of Christ. We are teaching people, you go out there and
35:41
be the best Christian you can with your effort. And my answer is,
35:45
I cannot. God. I am dead. I need life.
35:49
I need a Savior who can— I didn't— Christ,
35:52
who is our life, Colossians 3:4. He works within you both
35:55
to will and to do, Philippians 2:12-13.
35:59
We work out our salvation. We don't work for it. The more
36:02
people have a stunning, unshakable revelation
36:06
of everything that Jesus has done for them, and I am still learning
36:10
every day about what Jesus did for me on that cross, The more
36:14
that revelation comes in, the more we see how great he is.
36:17
Paul prayed the prayer in Ephesians that we would comprehend the
36:21
height, the depth, the width, the breadth, to know the love of
36:25
Christ, to know how much he loves us. And that's
36:29
how John the Beloved, he writes it, 1 John 4:19,
36:33
we love because he first loved us.
36:37
The church is not getting a radical revelation of God's
36:40
love, of Christ's work and of the grace of God.
36:45
It is not— this is not a self-help program.
36:49
It's a Christ-help program from beginning to end. And that revelation
36:53
is missing. Christ really did come to be our Savior and not our
36:57
life coach. And the greatest good is not self-esteem.
37:03
We are in a spiritual war.
37:06
We are being contested for And not
37:10
only will cultures and civilizations and lives be lost,
37:14
but also souls will be lost. And, and I want to know, who shall
37:18
stand up and defend the honor of the virgin bride of Christ?
37:22
Who will stand up and insist on the
37:26
honor of Christ the King? And if politicians
37:30
are going to make bold the claim Christ is King,
37:33
and I say yes, and we ignore that at our peril, then we have
37:37
some decisions to make for what kind of claims that
37:41
Christ is actually making a claim
37:44
on us. He sets us free, but he makes demands upon
37:48
us as well. Arthur Schopper, thank you for a fascinating conversation,
37:52
and I am grateful for your time today. If there's still a little time
37:55
left, I can't think— I can't build enough on what you've pointed
38:00
out. What we need is spiritual revival. I am convinced.
38:04
Amen. Thank you, Arthur. We have a heartbreak coming up, friends. We come back on
38:07
this Timely Tuesday. You know what comes up next? You and me sharing timely thoughts,
38:11
reflecting on what we've heard today. Be part of the conversation.
38:15
Follow what we're following by following us on Gab. That's gab.com.
38:20
The channel is The Catholic Current. Influence the conversation.
38:23
Contact us at stationofthecross.com/askfather.
38:27
Comments, questions, suggestions, recommendations. We want to
38:31
hear from you. We read everything you send us. We're back in just 2 minutes.
38:34
Please do stay with us.
39:00
Have a question or feedback about today's episode?
39:04
Want to suggest a guest or a future topic? Go to
39:08
thestationofthecross.com/askfather and
39:12
help influence the conversation.
39:20
Praise be Jesus Christ. This is Father Robert McTeague of the Society of Jesus,
39:24
your daily host for The Catholic Current, where we bring Christ to the world
39:28
and the world to Christ. You're listening to us from the Station of the Cross
39:31
Studios, your local radio station, the iCatholic Radio mobile app. We proclaim the
39:35
fullness of truth with clarity and charity. Well, here we
39:39
are, the last segment of a Timely Tuesday. You know, that means you and me
39:43
sharing timely thoughts, reflecting on what we've heard today. My guest was
39:47
author and commentator Arthur Schaeffer, and we've been talking about
39:51
defending marriage. Now, that might kind of
39:55
strike you as I said, well, you know, Father, defending marriage is like, you know,
39:59
defending, you know, gravity or air.
40:05
You know, it's, it's a fact of life. It's an indispensable
40:09
fact of life. What's, you know, why do we need to defend it?
40:13
Well, because don't underestimate the human ingenuity for making a
40:17
mess of things that are obviously good. Good and indispensable. It's got
40:21
something to do with original sin. And we can talk
40:25
about defending marriage and the definition of marriage and what's a man and
40:29
what's a woman and, and etc., etc. But I've been looking around at a
40:33
lot of different places around the world, especially where
40:36
birth rates are falling, and there's all sorts of
40:40
reasons for that— urbanization, the cult of contraception
40:45
and abortion, etc., etc. All that is true. I don't want to dismiss or relativize
40:48
any of that, but I want to focus on something different. And you've
40:52
heard me say this before. I mean, my father was part of the greatest generation.
40:55
He fought in World War II, uh, high school education,
40:59
blue-collar worker. And on one salary,
41:03
he had a 4-bedroom house, a 2-car garage with one car,
41:07
2 weeks to the Jersey Shore, uh, steak on
41:11
Sundays, and Mom stayed home
41:14
with the family and managed the house and cooked amazing
41:19
Italian meals. Yeah, I can go on about that. And that was done
41:23
on one salary. And almost without exception,
41:27
something like that cannot be done today by
41:31
a blue-collar worker. And there's a lot of different reasons for it— insurance
41:35
and women in the workplace, etc., etc. I'm going to
41:39
say some challenging things. We have a tax structure
41:44
designed to support an astonishingly—
41:49
some may say generous, others may say profligate— welfare
41:53
state. And up until recently,
41:57
and perhaps sooner rather than later, we have
42:01
an open border policy that is driven by
42:05
the promise of access to that welfare state.
42:09
Now, I know an American cardinal recently
42:13
said, here I quote, advocacy for immigrants is an
42:17
act of divine worship.
42:20
I will simply say the answer to that is
42:24
no, Your Eminence, no it is not, and put that aside
42:27
for now. I'll address that in another venue. But when you flood
42:33
people who come not necessarily to contribute,
42:37
but to have access to welfare benefits, and then register
42:42
to vote for their sugar daddy. I mean, let's be candid, nobody votes Santa
42:46
Claus out of office. You're not going to vote out of office the people or
42:50
the party or the candidates who give you free stuff.
42:55
You're just not. And let's add to that, when you flood an
42:59
economy with low-skilled workers,
43:03
many of whom may even be illiterate in their own language,
43:08
then you suppress the wages of American
43:12
citizens born here,
43:15
taxpayers who might otherwise have
43:19
a leg up the ladder, but they can't because the wages are suppressed,
43:23
because the lower end of the wage ladder is is, is flooded.
43:26
Likewise, uh, the reason why housing is
43:30
so expensive and rents are so high is because you
43:34
can charge a whole lot of money to putting people
43:38
into a 2-bedroom apartment that has 10, 12,
43:41
14 people than a family of 4.
43:45
So rents go up, mortgages go up,
43:50
healthcare prices go up because,
43:53
again, people flood the emergency room looking for free healthcare.
43:58
And so what happens? People who want to get married
44:03
and can't start families start doing the math,
44:07
and they say between the wages and
44:11
schools and healthcare and housing
44:16
and the welfare state, and the tax structure
44:21
and the divorce laws— let's not forget
44:24
about the divorce laws— who almost always wins in family
44:28
court and who almost always loses in
44:32
family court. A lot of
44:35
people are figuring out that financially it is
44:39
at best disadvantageous to
44:43
start a family. And at worst,
44:47
it's simply not possible to start a family.
44:51
And if you want to start a small business in order
44:56
to support your family, the bureaucracy
45:00
and the tax structure are against you.
45:04
So, for all the folks who talk about family values
45:09
and pro-life, I'm gonna make
45:12
a bold statement. You can have open borders
45:16
or you can have a welfare state, but you can't
45:19
have both. And if you choose to
45:23
have both, from a financial point of view,
45:27
from an economic point of view, you're going to
45:31
crush marriage and family formation.
45:35
I want to add this, you know, people get giddy because, oh look, you know,
45:38
we've had an increase in adult converts. So much winning!
45:43
You know, uh, let's another few more choruses
45:47
of Table of Plenty, that'll do it. And we're not mentioning that
45:51
statistically in the U.S., for every adult who comes into the church, around 8
45:56
leave. We don't talk about that because it doesn't fit in with the recipe
46:00
for hopium and copium. But really, Catholic growth
46:04
has been historically been built by the
46:08
generation of families. Catholics getting
46:12
married and having children, which is the primary end
46:16
of marriage. That's what the Church has always taught.
46:19
And if we've set up a tax structure, a welfare state,
46:23
a border policy, an economic system that
46:28
precludes the formation of families and the making
46:32
of babies, that too is going to
46:36
cause a shrinkage in parish life,
46:40
in diocesan life. And if you've inherited a lot of big
46:44
empty buildings and a top-heavy bureaucracy
46:49
that's obviously not going to pay for itself, then you
46:53
might be tempted to turn to Uncle Sam as your
46:57
sugar daddy to kind of keep the bureaucracy going.
47:00
Remember, basic rule of organizational psychology
47:04
states The purpose of a system is what
47:07
it does. And some people have contacted
47:11
me in a variety of meetings. It seems to me, Father, the purpose of the
47:15
Catholic Church in the United States is to keep the Catholic bureaucracy
47:18
going, and the person with the biggest,
47:21
uh, checkbook is Uncle Sam.
47:25
And if we have that mindset,
47:29
we're going to be very short-sighted we're going to have a narrow
47:33
palette of values, and we're going to foster policies
47:38
that crush family life and the formation
47:42
of families. So I think we need to have an honest,
47:46
sober, brave conversation about
47:50
the numbers behind the shrinkage of family life and
47:54
the growth of family life. Let me know.
47:57
Contact us at stationofthecross.com/askfather.
48:00
Let me know what you think about that. Please do join us tomorrow for another
48:05
lively episode of The Catholic Current. Great topic, great guest, great conversation,
48:08
because that's how we roll here at The Station of the Cross and The Catholic
48:11
Current, where we strive mightily to be
48:15
so much more than merely relevant. After the
48:19
broadcast today, go to thestationofthecross.com, get our resources
48:22
list, download our audio podcast. Wherever you can find audio, you can find
48:26
find us. Take this to your family and friends. Together we'll take it to the
48:29
whole world. Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Almighty God bless
48:33
you, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Go in peace, and please do pray for me,
48:36
for I am a sinner.